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View Full Version : L176.2 & SRY2627 (DF27>Z196>L176.2) & L165 too



TigerMW
04-18-2013, 10:10 PM
SRY2627 has been known for some time and also goes by the name M167. It has its highest frequencies in Southwest Europe, particularly along the Pyrenees and Catalonia. However, it is also found all the way over into Germany/Poland and Scandinavia as well as the British Isles.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-SRY2627_Frequency_Map_for_Iberia_from_Wikipedia.jp g

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/YDNAR1b-SRY2627.jpg&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:YDNAR1b-SRY2627.jpg&h=600&w=699&sz=68&tbnid=a2SYzlx64x1NzM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=105&zoom=1&usg=__GyjeVH-YfC7cXieStBXfbrBXD6g=&docid=xxcO09NDce9qaM&sa=X&ei=4GxwUZKUH-be2AXH64HwCQ&ved=0CDsQ9QEwAQ&dur=4893

SRY2627 has brothers under the L176.2 umbrella including L176.2* and L165 people. A newly discovered SNP, CTS4188, also appears to be a brother under L176.2 Also, it has been discovered that Z262 is immediately upstream of SRY2627 so we now have Z262* people.

R1b-SRY2627 & L176.2 project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=yresults

R1b-L164 project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L165Project/default.aspx?section=yresults

Brousse
04-21-2013, 03:23 PM
This is a old map. Has any new data came in and is King Tut of our group?

Gray Fox
04-21-2013, 07:04 PM
This is a old map. Has any new data came in and is King Tut of our group?

No, and it probably never will. The Egyptian Government wouldn't release something like this. They aren't exactly found of the West and to have a Western haplogroup show up as Tut's signature (if it is infact his dna) likely didn't go over well.

Brousse
04-22-2013, 12:21 AM
A R1b1 in the wood pile lol

DMXX
04-22-2013, 01:00 AM
Without politicising the thread too much and keeping it focused on the topic:


No, and it probably never will. The Egyptian Government wouldn't release something like this. They aren't exactly found of the West and to have a Western haplogroup show up as Tut's signature (if it is infact his dna) likely didn't go over well.

The government of Mubarak (pre-revolution/Muslim Brotherhood) was broadly pro-Western partially because of the amount of financial support the US shipped in their direction. I keep reading online that the Dept. of Antiquities in Egypt was, in turn, generally approving of Mubarak's regime. If those factoids are correct in sequence, then we would've naturally expected Tut's results to have been released at that time.

I don't think anything regarding Tut's Y-DNA will be released any time soon specifically because the Muslim Brotherhood has greater priorities, both politically (building a new political scene post-Mubarak) and arguably ideologically (discovering the ultimate roots of a pre-Islamic polytheistic adolescent Pharaoh isn't important to the predominantly Muslim Egypt of today).

Arch
04-23-2013, 03:55 AM
No new data so far. The map is actually not that old when you look at how slow things can move at times. I don't think we'll ever get to the bottom of King Tut's subclade. Please remind me why he is being brought up as a potential for SRY2627. If this is the case, then we need to look at SRY2627's possible origin being in Anatolia.

Arch

razyn
10-19-2013, 01:48 AM
Speaking of L165, as someone was doing as recently as last April -- David Reynolds posted elsewhere today that the group is split by ten new SNPs (under L165), found in British samples tested on the new Chromo2 chip. Two L165 guys are positive for all of them, two other L165 guys aren't. Just by way of breaking news, for future discussion; details so far are sparse. Anyway, here's the list:

S5643
S5647
S5652
S5661
S6338
S6339
S6341
S6366
S7414
S7415

Gray Fox
10-22-2013, 01:31 PM
A genetic cousin has just informed me that he is in the process of testing for a couple of new snp's below SRY2627. They are PF742 and Z207.. Does anyone have any info on these??

Stephen Parrish
10-22-2013, 02:10 PM
Sam -

Z207+ is upstream from CTS4299+ and is five levels downstream from SRY2627+, according to Christopher Morley's haplotree, which also tells me that PF742+ is downstream from CTS8289+, which is one level upstream from Z207+. CTS8289+ and PF742+ have DYS490 = 10.

What is your genetic cousin's kit number?

Stephen

Gray Fox
10-22-2013, 02:53 PM
Sam -

Z207+ is upstream from CTS4299+ and is five levels downstream from SRY2627+, according to Christopher Morley's haplotree, which also tells me that PF742+ is downstream from CTS8289+, which is one level upstream from Z207+. CTS8289+ and PF742+ have DYS490 = 10.

What is your genetic cousin's kit number?

Stephen

Ah.. That isn't good! He is DYS490=12! Too late though, as he's already ordered it. His surname is Grouazel-Krauss in the SRY2627 project.

Stephen Parrish
10-22-2013, 06:31 PM
Ah.. That isn't good! He is DYS490=12! Too late though, as he's already ordered it. His surname is Grouazel-Krauss in the SRY2627 project.

Sam -

He should be able to cancel his order if he contacts FTDNA, preferably as soon as possible today, before his test kit goes to FTDNA's lab (typically on Wednesday).

PF742+ appears to be a recurrent SNP; not only is it under CTS8289+, it also appears in haplogroup A1b.

Stephen

Stephen Parrish
10-22-2013, 06:48 PM
No new data so far. The map is actually not that old when you look at how slow things can move at times. I don't think we'll ever get to the bottom of King Tut's subclade. Please remind me why he is being brought up as a potential for SRY2627. If this is the case, then we need to look at SRY2627's possible origin being in Anatolia.

Arch

Arch -

If SRY2627+ is no more than 3000 years old (let us start with that assumption), then Tutankhamun - who ruled Egypt circa 1325 BCE - could not, of course, possibly have SRY2627+ as one of his derived SNPs. Even if we were to assume that SRY2627+ is at most 3500 years old, then how does one explain how SRY2627+ migrated from wherever it originated in western Europe to become Tutankhamun's terminal SNP?

Stephen

Gray Fox
10-23-2013, 12:11 AM
Yes, he informed me that it was within the last 24 hours that he ordered them. So he shouldn't have any trouble explaining his situation. Thanks again, Stephen.

gmatthee
01-27-2014, 10:13 PM
Daer people of SRY2627,

I am new here and read about my subhaplogroup SRY2627.
I am Ger Matthee tested postitive (SRY2627 = R1b1a2a1a1b5a = M167/SRY2627) by FTDNA. I live in the Netherlands.
I want to know more about new future tests.
I want to know more about my group SRY2627.

Who can tell me more....

greetings Ger Matthee

Gray Fox
01-28-2014, 06:08 AM
Daer people of SRY2627,

I am new here and read about my subhaplogroup SRY2627.
I am Ger Matthee tested postitive (SRY2627 = R1b1a2a1a1b5a = M167/SRY2627) by FTDNA. I live in the Netherlands.
I want to know more about new future tests.
I want to know more about my group SRY2627.

Who can tell me more....

greetings Ger Matthee

I figured someone would've said something by now. I'm not too knowledgeable on what tests should be taken. It seems we're kind of in a grey area at the moment. Waiting on all of these new results from the expensive and much more comprehensive tests being offered.

The Wikipedia page for the subclade is decent. Giving record of the studies that the clade has appeared in and age estimates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRY2627

The Ftdna project is another source of info. If you haven't joined, I highly suggest you do so. It will keep you up to date on all of the current developments.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6

Also, please join the parent group for our sub clades project if you haven't done so.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27/

razyn
01-28-2014, 05:28 PM
I live in the Netherlands.

I want to know more about my group SRY2627.

There's a "Genomes of the Netherlands" project, I don't know very much about it, but Hans van Vliet (Amsterdam) has posted some data culled from it on another thread here. In the sampled population there were only two SRY2627 guys out of 478 in whose test results that position could be read. (Last two digits in the table, see M167 for the SRY2627 details.) http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1275-DF27-Z295-CTS4065&p=16279#post16279

There was also a somewhat similar DNA project in predominantly Flemish counties, mainly of Belgium, that had data about some subclades of DF27. I don't remember definitely that SRY2627 was one that they tracked, but I believe it was.

If you look at the third map in the following post, a lot of that is SRY2627; but then a lot of it isn't, and it's not to be perceived as a map of that SNP. Really it's just one more misleading picture of the present day distribution of something whose origins are not in the present day. But it's a nice try, anyway: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1957-Map-of-L21-in-France&p=28664&viewfull=1#post28664

Stephen Parrish
01-29-2014, 12:24 AM
Daer people of SRY2627,

I am new here and read about my subhaplogroup SRY2627.
I am Ger Matthee tested postitive (SRY2627 = R1b1a2a1a1b5a = M167/SRY2627) by FTDNA. I live in the Netherlands.
I want to know more about new future tests.
I want to know more about my group SRY2627.

Who can tell me more....

greetings Ger Matthee

Ger -

I am a co-administrator of the SRY2627+/L176.2+/Z198+ and DF27+ and Subclades haplogroup projects; because you tested with Family Tree DNA, I hope that you will join both projects. Please tell me what DNA tests you have taken.

You received very good replies that appear elsewhere on this page. To add to those replies, I would like to mention that SRY2627+ occurs in approximately only 1% (perhaps 2% at most) of western Europe's male population. You might have already read that SRY2627+ first appeared approximately 3000 years ago.

If you have more questions, please post them on this page.

Stephen

Gray Fox
02-25-2014, 07:01 AM
To any of the administrator's for the DF27 project, Kit number 246217 is or rather will be positive for SRY2627.

Stephen Parrish
02-25-2014, 05:38 PM
To any of the administrator's for the DF27 project, Kit number 246217 is or rather will be positive for SRY2627.

Sam -

Please let him know that he is welcome to join the SRY2627+/L176.2+/Z198+ project.

Stephen

Gray Fox
02-26-2014, 08:34 PM
Sam -

Please let him know that he is welcome to join the SRY2627+/L176.2+/Z198+ project.

Stephen

Will do. Thanks for moving him around.

Stephen Parrish
03-05-2014, 12:44 AM
Will do. Thanks for moving him around.

Sam -

You're welcome, but I can't claim credit for moving him around; someone else moved him to the appropriate DF27+ project subgroup before I found out that he was in the DF27+ project. :)

Stephen

Arch
03-14-2014, 06:44 AM
Welcome aboard!

Gray Fox
03-14-2014, 08:55 AM
Look what the cat drug in! I was wondering where you'd been. Glad you're back, there's a shortage of our type around here.

Stephen Parrish
03-14-2014, 11:57 PM
Welcome aboard!

Arch -

Hearing from you is a pleasant surprise. :)

Sam and Arch - how many SRY2627+ individuals are members of this forum?

Stephen

Gray Fox
03-15-2014, 04:39 PM
Arch -

Hearing from you is a pleasant surprise. :)

Sam and Arch - how many SRY2627+ individuals are members of this forum?

Stephen

Not many. I think we were one of the groups most affected by the dna-forums dissolution. We were pretty lively on worldfamilies, but as this site grew those forums became less and less popular. I've seen a few native French SRY2627 posting here and there on places like eng.molgen and eupedia. On this site you obviously have the three of us, The tick is also on here. Gmatthe is our newest recruit from the Netherlands. Daspit seems to have disappeared. I've seen Brousse on various sites and Didier seems most active on 23&me. Grouazel, my possible, ancient cousin is in regular correspondence with me via email. Similar to our western European distribution, we are all fairly spread out!

lluis
03-15-2014, 04:47 PM
Normally I read this forum but until today I had not decided to join me because I didn't have anything to say that contribute in a practical way.
Soon we will know more results of Big Y and I think is necessary to share as much SNP downstream of SRY2627 as possible in order to understand this part of the phylogenetic tree. So I've decided to join now.
Lluis.

razyn
03-15-2014, 06:31 PM
Just in case you guys missed it, there is some SRY2627 etc. info from Chromo2 in this thread:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1484-DF27-aka-S250-results-from-the-Chromo2-test&p=31981&viewfull=1#post31981

There has been some revision since then, and I haven't updated it on Anthrogenica -- perhaps a bit more on Facebook, or the Yahoo group for R1b-DF27. Anyway, Dr. Wilson has released the positions for the S-series mutations, and we can order tests for anything you guys want to test for. It's a heck of a lot quicker to do that at YSEQ (once you have a sample in their fridge); or you can wait 10 weeks for the test, and 2-3 months more for your result, and do it at FTDNA -- where it will automatically be visible in the projects hosted there. The latter is an advantage, but comes with costs -- especially if you believe that time is money.

razyn
03-21-2014, 07:28 PM
There is a new member in the DF27 project with Big Y results indicating SRY2627, and I don't know what-all else -- I see he's not in your project. #310454.

Stephen Parrish
03-21-2014, 11:10 PM
I will send him an invitation to join the SRY2627+ project if he has not already joined.

Stephen

DavidCar
03-28-2014, 05:48 AM
Somebody explain to me again what the actual mutation is for L176.2. I don't find it in yBrowse, so I can't look it up in BigY raw data. But I did find that Z198 wasn't in a region covered by any BigY kits I've seen.

Stephen Parrish
03-28-2014, 11:31 AM
Somebody explain to me again what the actual mutation is for L176.2. I don't find it in yBrowse, so I can't look it up in BigY raw data. But I did find that Z198 wasn't in a region covered by any BigY kits I've seen.

David -

Please let me know what you see when you click on this link: http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=21779256;end=21779257;name=L17 6.2;class=Sequence;feature_id=58985;db_id=chrY%3Ad atabase

Stephen

DavidCar
03-30-2014, 04:43 PM
David -

Please let me know what you see when you click on this link: http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=21779256;end=21779257;name=L17 6.2;class=Sequence;feature_id=58985;db_id=chrY%3Ad atabase

Stephen

OK, Interesting. It still doesn't come up for me when I search. But this is M97 in Haplogroup H.

This also says 695 were tested and zero were derived, so this doesn't look like L176.2 to me.

DavidCar
03-31-2014, 03:42 AM
I found this on a FTDNA P312 WTY Project Page:

Plies - Results received 2009-09-29; one new Indel/STR: L176.2 ChrY:20238645-20238674 [del>insAAAAC; 6>7] found below R-P312*

Stephen Parrish
03-31-2014, 12:20 PM
David -

Thank you for your reply. The Ybrowse page that I intended to send is not the Ybrowse page that appears above.

Stephen

Stephen Parrish
03-31-2014, 12:26 PM
David -

What you posted is correct; L176.2+ is a pentanucleotide insert.

When you have time, please look at what Ybrowse has to say about L809.

Please let me know if this link works: http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=21779256;end=21779257;name=L17 6.2;class=Sequence;feature_id=59003;db_id=chrY%3Ad atabase

Stephen

Arch
04-13-2014, 06:11 PM
Hi Sam,

I've been pretty busy lately, barely enough time to relax but just poke in every once in a while and see what news there may be. I have to admit my attention has been more focused on the older R1b stuff figuring it will be a long while before we ever get solid evidence that our SNP originated from or very nearby the Pyrenees. :-) I'm truly interested in learning about theories of M-269's origins in Anatolia and the findings in Crete, which may have Venetian influence but... LOL. Also, I have been in very brief contact with Wagner Alberti but I have been so dang busy that we haven't had much correspondence with him. I'm interested in learning about his family background because the documentation goes back into the Middle Ages! That is so cool!

I guess I'm more in a wait and sit it out mode to see how the "movie" ends with SRY2627 while also munching down on popcorn and soda. I hope my theories win. :-D

Arch

Arch
04-13-2014, 06:20 PM
Hi Stephen,

Like I was telling Sam, I've been pretty busy but I do poke in every once in a while. Mainly been focused on M-269 stuff but will scour the Internet for anything related to DF27 and below subclades just to see if anything new has surfaced up. I'm on a moratorium on purchasing any new genetic testing offers, big travel plans next year and that has also slowed my traffic at some of the genetic genealogy forums - plus I've invested enough already to sustain whatever research needed to connect me across the pond. Now it's just wait it out and see. I have no idea how many SRY2627+ individuals are on this forum. I have to admit, I like the layout of this one.

Arch

Gray Fox
04-13-2014, 07:22 PM
Hi Sam,

I've been pretty busy lately, barely enough time to relax but just poke in every once in a while and see what news there may be. I have to admit my attention has been more focused on the older R1b stuff figuring it will be a long while before we ever get solid evidence that our SNP originated from or very nearby the Pyrenees. :-) I'm truly interested in learning about theories of M-269's origins in Anatolia and the findings in Crete, which may have Venetian influence but... LOL. Also, I have been in very brief contact with Wagner Alberti but I have been so dang busy that we haven't had much correspondence with him. I'm interested in learning about his family background because the documentation goes back into the Middle Ages! That is so cool!

I guess I'm more in a wait and sit it out mode to see how the "movie" ends with SRY2627 while also munching down on popcorn and soda. I hope my theories win. :-D

Arch

Right there with ya on the wait it out and see scenario. I'm pretty much burnt out on researching my y-line. I have it confirmed across the pond and SRY2627 is in a current standstill. Not much going on!

razyn
04-13-2014, 07:42 PM
There is something going on, but I'm not sure anybody understands what. It may have to do with Z198 being a better candidate than L176 for chip (and/or NextGen) testing... Stephen Parrish and David Carlisle are among the more sane people trying to explain the subclade breakdown, under Z198. Or over, as the case may be (the Big Y in itself doesn't seem to know, or care). Do you guys (Sam and Arch) follow the Yahoo group for DF27? New files are posted there pretty regularly, including today -- along with some commentary from anyone who feels so moved, and either does or doesn't understand what they mean -- and either does or doesn't admit the latter.

I'm still watching and waiting, but not to see which of you guys is right. If we get some new branching points confirmed, and a little population in each branch, we can move along with some new dating -- and that might resolve some of the geographical arguments. One can hope, anyhow.

Stephen Parrish
04-14-2014, 10:10 AM
Hi Stephen,

Like I was telling Sam, I've been pretty busy but I do poke in every once in a while. Mainly been focused on M-269 stuff but will scour the Internet for anything related to DF27 and below subclades just to see if anything new has surfaced up. I'm on a moratorium on purchasing any new genetic testing offers, big travel plans next year and that has also slowed my traffic at some of the genetic genealogy forums - plus I've invested enough already to sustain whatever research needed to connect me across the pond. Now it's just wait it out and see. I have no idea how many SRY2627+ individuals are on this forum. I have to admit, I like the layout of this one.

Arch

Arch -

Since you have DYS490 = 10, I thought, in case you haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere, that you would be interested in knowing that it looks as if any SRY2627+ individual who has DYS490 = 10 also has CTS8289+.

Stephen

WayOut West
04-26-2014, 01:17 AM
Well, the updated FTDNA Haplotree is out

Being L176.2+, I'm testing for PF6913 and I hope it gets me somewhere with this as there appears to be little movement in this area

Gray Fox
04-26-2014, 12:28 PM
We're definitely moving along slowly compared to other P312 clades. But if being apart of this group has taught me anything, its to be patient. My very gracious project admin has upgraded me to the 111 marker status. So, perhaps after that comes in I will order Z205.

thetick
04-26-2014, 04:37 PM
Arch -

Since you have DYS490 = 10, I thought, in case you haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere, that you would be interested in knowing that it looks as if any SRY2627+ individual who has DYS490 = 10 also has CTS8289+.

Stephen

Hi,

I'm predicted SRY2627 at FTDNA and confirmed SRY2627 at 23andme. I never saw the need to spend the $$ to get SRY2627+ added at FTDNA. I have 111 STR markers and am wondering what downstream SNPs are the best for me to test? I would only like to test only very likely SNPs since I'm on a budget. I'm in cluster A01 on the SRY2627 Project. I noticed almost none of new SNPs results are in the FTDNA SRY2627 project. Where is the best place to check who's in all the downstream SNPs with Gene2.0 , WTY and Big Y results? Are any of the downstream SNPs shown below in 23andme raw data?

1791

Update I forgot about the DF27 yahoo group which has lots of details including a proposed SRY2627 Tree.pdf. Regardless i would still like some advice on which SNPs I should test.

1792

So most likely I'm CTS8289 (since I'm DYS490=10) and should test Z207 and CTS4299. Where do the other brother clades come from in FTDNA tree?

Stephen Parrish
04-26-2014, 11:02 PM
Hi,

I'm predicted SRY2627 at FTDNA and confirmed SRY2627 at 23andme. I never saw the need to spend the $$ to get SRY2627+ added at FTDNA. I have 111 STR markers and am wondering what downstream SNPs are the best for me to test? I would only like to test only very likely SNPs since I'm on a budget. I'm in cluster A01 on the SRY2627 Project. I noticed almost none of new SNPs results are in the FTDNA SRY2627 project. Where is the best place to check who's in all the downstream SNPs with Gene2.0 , WTY and Big Y results? Are any of the downstream SNPs shown below in 23andme raw data?

1791

Update I forgot about the DF27 yahoo group which has lots of details including a proposed SRY2627 Tree.pdf. Regardless i would still like some advice on which SNPs I should test.

1792

So most likely I'm CTS8289 (since I'm DYS490=10) and should test Z207 and CTS4299. Where do the other brother clades come from in FTDNA tree?

You almost certainly have CTS8289+; as you alluded, it seems that DYS490=10 members of the SRY2627+ project all have CTS8289+, for I have not seen an exception to that observation. What should you test next? Before I attempt to answer that question, I have another question: what might be the best way for you to test what is known to be downstream from CTS8289+? With some exceptions, most of the CTS8289+ members of the SRY2627+ project have CTS4299+, and I know of one CTS8289+ member with no known derived SNPs below CTS8289+ and a Z207+ member with no known derived SNPs below Z207+.

Before you proceed further with testing SNPs, let's see what other SNPs are appearing as terminal SNPs in the DYS490=10 section of the SRY2627+ project.

Stephen

Stephen Parrish
04-26-2014, 11:16 PM
We're definitely moving along slowly compared to other P312 clades. But if being apart of this group has taught me anything, its to be patient. My very gracious project admin has upgraded me to the 111 marker status. So, perhaps after that comes in I will order Z205.

Sam -

What I am noticing in the DYS490=12 section of the SRY2627+ project is that I occasionally notice someone who does not have R-Z205+ and unless I have inadvertently overlooked something, it appears that R-Z205+ invariably appears in the DYS490=10 section of the SRY2627+ project, according to Geno 2.0 and Big Y results that I have seen so far.

At this juncture, I do not what to suggest concerning your testing Z205+; if I am guessing correctly, you probably have Z205+ (and if you have Z205+, what are the other derived SNPs that you have below it?). If I were anyone in the DYS490=12 section of the SRY2627+ project and if I had not taken a Big Y test and/or a Full Genomes Corporation test, then I would wait until Family Tree DNA offers a haplogroup-specific deep clade test to see what SNPs you might have that are downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen

thetick
04-27-2014, 01:49 AM
/
If I were anyone in the DYS490=12 section of the SRY2627+ project and if I had not taken a Big Y test and/or a Full Genomes Corporation test, then I would wait until Family Tree DNA offers a haplogroup-specific deep clade test to see what SNPs you might have that are downstream from SRY2627+.
Stephen

First thanks for the quick response to me and Sam. I think a deep clade would be good for me too. I thought deep clade tests were sunset in favor of Geno2.0 ? Do you have any inside info on a new deep clade test? The individual SNPs are quite expensive all added up even with the current sale.

Gray Fox
04-27-2014, 03:34 AM
Sam -

What I am noticing in the DYS490=12 section of the SRY2627+ project is that I occasionally notice someone who does not have R-Z205+ and unless I have inadvertently overlooked something, it appears that R-Z205+ invariably appears in the DYS490=10 section of the SRY2627+ project, according to Geno 2.0 and Big Y results that I have seen so far.

At this juncture, I do not what to suggest concerning your testing Z205+; if I am guessing correctly, you probably have Z205+ (and if you have Z205+, what are the other derived SNPs that you have below it?). If I were anyone in the DYS490=12 section of the SRY2627+ project and if I had not taken a Big Y test and/or a Full Genomes Corporation test, then I would wait until Family Tree DNA offers a haplogroup-specific deep clade test to see what SNPs you might have that are downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen

Thanks for the info, Stephen. I'm currently plain vanilla SRY2627 as I haven't had any further testing done. My approach to the matter is to upgrade to a good number of str's and then see if any patterns emerge from that. I love this hobby, but I'm not at a point in my life where I can justify spending 400 to 500 hundred dollars in one shot either. So, I'll definitely be waiting for Ftdna or another reputable company to offer snp's one at a time.

Isidro
04-27-2014, 01:25 PM
Greetings all, here is my new Y-Chromosome tree at FTDNA. Just to compare notes with others.
1793

Mark D
04-27-2014, 01:38 PM
It's identical to mine Isidro, but I'm still waiting for Big Y results to see where to go from here.

The tree still leaves off L147.3 which FTDNA had reported on their Deep Clade Test a few years ago.

Mark

Stephen Parrish
04-27-2014, 05:07 PM
Thanks for the info, Stephen. I'm currently plain vanilla SRY2627 as I haven't had any further testing done. My approach to the matter is to upgrade to a good number of str's and then see if any patterns emerge from that. I love this hobby, but I'm not at a point in my life where I can justify spending 400 to 500 hundred dollars in one shot either. So, I'll definitely be waiting for Ftdna or another reputable company to offer snp's one at a time.

Sam -

Your upgrading from 67 to 111 STRs is a prudent choice for the reason that you stated; you might find more close matches after your upgraded test results arrive.

Speaking of patterns, I hope that Big Y test results will reveal whatever patterns exist in SRY2627+ DYS490=12 individuals' SNPs known to be downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen

Stephen Parrish
04-27-2014, 05:13 PM
/

First thanks for the quick response to me and Sam. I think a deep clade would be good for me too. I thought deep clade tests were sunset in favor of Geno2.0 ? Do you have any inside info on a new deep clade test? The individual SNPs are quite expensive all added up even with the current sale.

It is my understanding that Family Tree DNA's forthcoming deep clade test will be offered sometime after June 30. I have no other details other than to mention that it is haplogroup specific. If I am guessing correctly, Family Tree DNA is postponing introduction of this new test so that it can analyze Big Y results.

It is also my understanding that a successor to Geno 2.0 (Geno 3 perhaps?) will also be offered sometime this year.

Stephen

Isidro
04-28-2014, 03:42 PM
Mark D:
Yes, L147.3 and also Z262 not there. Maybe after the dust settles there might be some changes, I guess they had to streamline branches.

I wonder who has those CT4188 and PF6913, it clearly puts them at the same level as SRY2627 and L165.

ArmandoR1b
04-28-2014, 05:24 PM
Mark D:
Yes, L147.3 and also Z262 not there. Maybe after the dust settles there might be some changes, I guess they had to streamline branches.

I wonder who has those CT4188 and PF6913, it clearly puts them at the same level as SRY2627 and L165.

It's CTS4188 and it's at the top of the page 50 in Chris Morley's Experimental Y-SNP Phylogenies at http://ytree.morleydna.com/ExperimentalGenoPhylogeny20140207.pdf

Chris has CTS4188 under Z198 and parallel with L165 and Z198 is under L176/S179. SRY2627 is under Z262 and Z262 is under L176/179.

167763, 174609, 259586, 50004, N112845, are N116632 are positive for CTS4188. Some of them are in the L176.2 project under K. L176.2+ Z198+ CTS4188+ ( SRY2627- L165- Z262-)

There is a group D. Z262+ SRY2627- L165- CTS4188- so that means Z262 is definitely above SRY2627 therefore CTS4188, L165, and SRY2627 are not on the same level. Z198 seems to happen under more than one SNP per Chris Morley's Experimental Y-SNP Phylogenies. So CTS4188, L165, and Z262 are on the same level. Therefore, Mike Walsh's diagram is still more accurate than the FTDNA haplotree. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-DF27_Descendency_Tree.jpg

The 2014 ISOGG R tree agrees with Mike Walsh's diagram.

Gray Fox
04-28-2014, 09:09 PM
I figured I would create a map of the SRY2627 listed on ysearch. I only used those accounts who listed a fairly specific location with Europe. As has been alluded to in the past, there is a fairly dense amount in Southwest England. This was just a quick throw together. Nothing as neat and proper as Maciamo's, but it is food for thought none the less.

1794

Mark D
04-29-2014, 12:01 AM
It's CTS4188 and it's at the top of the page 50 in Chris Morley's Experimental Y-SNP Phylogenies at http://ytree.morleydna.com/ExperimentalGenoPhylogeny20140207.pdf


Got it, thanks. I see I'm at line 2478 of Chris' tree - L147, PF7217 which appears to be parallel to CTS 4188. L147 is from FTDNA's Deep Clade test a few years ago and PF7217 is from Geno 2.0.

I understand that possibly as soon as June FTDNA will update their Haplotree; hopefully it will include the SNPs many people have tested positive for but are not now included.

WayOut West
04-30-2014, 01:12 PM
This post was the ravings of a mad person-removed

kimfreeborn
05-21-2014, 04:53 PM
Hi:

Just wondering if there is anyone out there who is pf6913+. Since I'm new here I'm also wondering if this is the correct forum.
:)

razyn
05-21-2014, 06:12 PM
Two people in R1b-DF27 group Ca, and maybe one more (who posts here as Way out West), are testing for PF6913, ordered in late April. I don't know that anyone else in the DF27 project has that result (or "terminal" SNP) besides you. Maybe someone in the L176 etc. project will comment?

Gray Fox
05-21-2014, 08:31 PM
Hi:

Just wondering if there is anyone out there who is pf6913+. Since I'm new here I'm also wondering if this is the correct forum.
:)

Welcome to Anthrogenica!

Yes, you're in the right place. I'm seeing a pf6913 person reporting ancestry from Scotland on a different website. Would this be you?

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/2392/

kimfreeborn
05-21-2014, 10:14 PM
Welcome to Anthrogenica!

Yes, you're in the right place. I'm seeing a pf6913 person reporting ancestry from Scotland on a different website. Would this be you?

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/2392/

No not me. My paternal GGGGrandfather was from Donegal.

Gray Fox
05-21-2014, 11:06 PM
No not me. My paternal GGGGrandfather was from Donegal.

Interesting. Do you know if he was of Native Irish (Gaelic surname) stock or Planter stock? Unfortunately Semargl doesn't include surnames in their data maps, so it'd be hard to identify the Scot.

Stephen Parrish
05-22-2014, 12:19 AM
Two people in R1b-DF27 group Ca, and maybe one more (who posts here as Way out West), are testing for PF6913, ordered in late April. I don't know that anyone else in the DF27 project has that result (or "terminal" SNP) besides you. Maybe someone in the L176 etc. project will comment?

Dick -

Ybrowse tells me that PF6913+ is in haplogroup I; furthermore, PF6913+ is not mentioned in the most recent version of Chris Morley's experimental haplotree.

Stephen

kimfreeborn
05-22-2014, 01:07 AM
Planter Stock I would imagine. Freeborns still live in Drumhome Donegal.

kimfreeborn
05-22-2014, 02:44 AM
Dick -

Ybrowse tells me that PF6913+ is in haplogroup I; furthermore, PF6913+ is not mentioned in the most recent version of Chris Morley's experimental haplotree.

Stephen

Shown under Z195 and L176 in the FTDNA Haplotree. DF27 is not actually in the tree.

Gray Fox
05-22-2014, 03:41 AM
Planter Stock I would imagine. Freeborns still live in Drumhome Donegal.

That's what I was assuming. Very few L176.2 and sub clades derived Gaels.

razyn
05-22-2014, 02:45 PM
Dick -

Ybrowse tells me that PF6913+ is in haplogroup I

I've read sketchy mentions of it by Ashby Boaz and/or Mark Kaiser in the DF27 Yahoo group, leading me to think it's under L176.2 but not under most of the known subclades thereof. If there's another occurrence of it in Hg I, and that's the example YBrowse saw first, GOK where FTDNA's new haplotree will park it. In their infinite wisdom, they have stopped distinguishing among these "recurrent" things that the Geno2 chips don't resolve, phylogenetically.

Stephen Parrish
05-22-2014, 02:53 PM
Shown under Z195 and L176 in the FTDNA Haplotree. DF27 is not actually in the tree.

FTDNA's new haplotree places PF6913+ under Z195+ and L176.2+; more specifically, PF6913+ appears to be phylogenetically equivalent to SRY2627+ and L165+, according to that haplotree.

Looking at the DF27+ and Subclades SNP page, I see only one person in the DF27+ project who has PF6913+. I do not see Z195+ or Z198+ in his list of derived SNPs. Looking at the SRY2627+/L176.2+/Z198+ project's SNP page, I do not see PF6913+ on that page. Might Z195+ and/or Z198+ appear in that person's raw data file? Might PF6913+ be a recurrent SNP?

Stephen

Stephen Parrish
05-22-2014, 02:55 PM
Dick -

I know where FTDNA parked it. :)

Stephen

razyn
05-22-2014, 03:00 PM
Well I know where I parked FTDNA's new haplotree, and it's not in "Bookmarks."

WayOut West
05-22-2014, 09:52 PM
Two people in R1b-DF27 group Ca, and maybe one more (who posts here as Way out West), are testing for PF6913, ordered in late April. I don't know that anyone else in the DF27 project has that result (or "terminal" SNP) besides you. Maybe someone in the L176 etc. project will comment?

Hi, Guys

Yep, I'm waiting for PF6913.

Oral tradition has my ancestors as a sept of Clan Cameron through an illegitimate son of a chief in the 16th century. Having someone with a positive PF6913 reporting ancestry from those exact Cameron homelands could be interesting if I return + also.

Being out in the antipodes (Australia) has left me with gaps in the verifiable family tree, but the Scotish tradition remains strong down all paths investigated so far

Cheers

Mark D
05-23-2014, 10:15 PM
FTDNA's new haplotree places PF6913+ under Z195+ and L176.2+; more specifically, PF6913+ appears to be phylogenetically equivalent to SRY2627+ and L165+, according to that haplotree.

Looking at the DF27+ and Subclades SNP page, I see only one person in the DF27+ project who has PF6913+. I do not see Z195+ or Z198+ in his list of derived SNPs. Looking at the SRY2627+/L176.2+/Z198+ project's SNP page, I do not see PF6913+ on that page. Might Z195+ and/or Z198+ appear in that person's raw data file? Might PF6913+ be a recurrent SNP?

Stephen

Hi - While I'm mentioned by Richard (I believe) above as Mark Kaiser, my name is Mark Deutsch; my email address is kaisermark, hence the confusion. I'm an adoptee, so the surname means nothing regardless. Anyway, my Big Y results just came in a couple of days ago, uploaded and David has added them to his spreadsheet. FTDNA's haplotree shows me as negative for PF6913 if that's one issue. But now that you mention recurrent SNPs, both the FTDNA haplotree and the Big Y results show me as positive for several that are with other haplogroups - L104 in HG I, P226, L468 and L471 in HG E, L747 in HG J and PF6249 in HG L.

But what I've been really interested in finding through Big Y has been made even more complicated by the results - I and Scott Noble now share 31 novel SNPs by ourselves, not simply L147.3. (and Scott and I are not even close on STRs) So L176.2 now has much more to work with. Thanks again David for putting it together. Good luck guys!

razyn
05-24-2014, 03:09 AM
While I'm mentioned by Richard (I believe) above as Mark Kaiser, my name is Mark Deutsch; my email address is kaisermark, hence the confusion.

I actually knew that, but forgot which was which, and didn't go back to my handwritten notes to be sure. Mike had listed your name here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1584-DF27-Big-Y-tracking-and-results&p=19570&viewfull=1#post19570 -- I didn't, because nominally we weren't going to use surnames for people who don't make them public in our FTDNA projects (and you don't). But I believe you sign with your name in the Yahoo group, anyhow.

Arch
05-29-2014, 06:56 AM
Okay, CTS4299 is ordered. Let's wait and see where it places me. Any bets on positioning?

Arch

Arch
05-29-2014, 08:22 AM
Here is something I found at the Iberian Roots website. Showing SRY2627 with a slightly larger percentage in Aragon than in Catalonia:

R-SRY2627 Aragon 9 12.00%
R-SRY2627 Catalonia 42 10.77%
R-SRY2627 Balearic Islands 16 7.66%
R-SRY2627 Castile - La Mancha 5 6.10%
R-SRY2627 Valencia 5 3.82%
R-SRY2627 Evora 1 3.70%
R-SRY2627 Navarra 2 3.64%
R-SRY2627 Aveiro 2 3.57%
R-SRY2627 Basque Country 11 3.36%
R-SRY2627 Andalucia 9 3.26%
R-SRY2627 Canary Islands 1 3.13%
R-SRY2627 Guarda 1 3.13%
R-SRY2627 Viseu 1 3.13%
R-SRY2627 Castelo Branco 1 2.94%
R-SRY2627 Leiria 1 2.78%
R-SRY2627 Galicia 4 2.74%
R-SRY2627 Vila Real 1 2.38%
R-SRY2627 Lisboa 2 2.30%
R-SRY2627 Porto 3 2.17%
R-SRY2627 Azores 1 2.04%
R-SRY2627 North (Portugal) 6 1.97%
R-SRY2627 Extremadura 1 1.52%
R-SRY2627 Castilla y Leon 2 1.25%
R-SRY2627 South (Portugal) 2 1.12%
R-SRY2627 Unknown 2 0.37%

Arch

Stephen Parrish
05-29-2014, 10:37 AM
Okay, CTS4299 is ordered. Let's wait and see where it places me. Any bets on positioning?

Arch

Arch -

If you have CTS4299+, then you also have Z207+. Since you have DYS490 = 10, I know that you have CTS8289+.

Your L659+ from your Walk the Y test is downstream from CTS8289+ because I have CTS8289+ and L659-.

Stephen

Arch
05-29-2014, 06:46 PM
Stephen,

Should be interesting to find out if my positioning goes further down the tree. I'm thinking it will and to what extent should also be an interesting find because it looks like SRY2627 has quite a few new branches underneath it. Good news for such a subclade that only makes nearly 3% or less of the WAMH altogether in order to get a better geographic idea of ancestral origins. Bad news because it means decreasing numbers of participants will be found in particular branches as SRY2627 continues to branch off. Hopefully we can get to the true terminal SNPs of SRY2627 soon and not have to keep testing for SNPs downstream.

Arch

Gray Fox
05-29-2014, 09:42 PM
Here is something I found at the Iberian Roots website. Showing SRY2627 with a slightly larger percentage in Aragon than in Catalonia:

R-SRY2627 Aragon 9 12.00%
R-SRY2627 Catalonia 42 10.77%
R-SRY2627 Balearic Islands 16 7.66%
R-SRY2627 Castile - La Mancha 5 6.10%
R-SRY2627 Valencia 5 3.82%
R-SRY2627 Evora 1 3.70%
R-SRY2627 Navarra 2 3.64%
R-SRY2627 Aveiro 2 3.57%
R-SRY2627 Basque Country 11 3.36%
R-SRY2627 Andalucia 9 3.26%
R-SRY2627 Canary Islands 1 3.13%
R-SRY2627 Guarda 1 3.13%
R-SRY2627 Viseu 1 3.13%
R-SRY2627 Castelo Branco 1 2.94%
R-SRY2627 Leiria 1 2.78%
R-SRY2627 Galicia 4 2.74%
R-SRY2627 Vila Real 1 2.38%
R-SRY2627 Lisboa 2 2.30%
R-SRY2627 Porto 3 2.17%
R-SRY2627 Azores 1 2.04%
R-SRY2627 North (Portugal) 6 1.97%
R-SRY2627 Extremadura 1 1.52%
R-SRY2627 Castilla y Leon 2 1.25%
R-SRY2627 South (Portugal) 2 1.12%
R-SRY2627 Unknown 2 0.37%

Arch

So.. A wave of Celts migrating south and intermixing with Aquitani, Ilergertes and then finally settling down and becoming the Celtiberi?? :)

Webb
05-30-2014, 01:15 AM
So.. A wave of Celts migrating south and intermixing with Aquitani, Ilergertes and then finally settling down and becoming the Celtiberi?? :)

Sam, you had to go there, why? Why, oh, why?

Gray Fox
05-30-2014, 01:43 AM
I can't help myself! That and its been kinda dull here lately.

Webb
05-30-2014, 03:22 AM
I can't help myself! That and its been kinda dull here lately.

Well, since you pulled the trigger. There is a gentleman over on the P312 page on Facebook that has Welsh ancestry and matches two other Welsh families with a common ancestor of around 0 B.C. based on genetic distance who was DF27* but now has a novel snp that is shared by one of the other Welsh matches. I think this is huge as it could put their variety of DF27 in Wales at around 0 B.C. I have always thought some of the DF27* group and SRY2627 as quite old in Britain. It seems the opposite for the north/south group. A large number seem to paper trail to the Normans.

Gray Fox
05-30-2014, 05:26 AM
Well, since you pulled the trigger. There is a gentleman over on the P312 page on Facebook that has Welsh ancestry and matches two other Welsh families with a common ancestor of around 0 B.C. based on genetic distance who was DF27* but now has a novel snp that is shared by one of the other Welsh matches. I think this is huge as it could put their variety of DF27 in Wales at around 0 B.C. I have always thought some of the DF27* group and SRY2627 as quite old in Britain. It seems the opposite for the north/south group. A large number seem to paper trail to the Normans.

Yes, I remember reading that. I won't mention his name or the information, as I don't know if he wants it spread, but it will be interesting if his lineage pans out the way he mentioned. I agree there does seem to be a more, dare I say it, Germanic/Eastern vibe about you N/S guys. I'm still in a weird place with my lineage which I'm pretty sure is of Norman heritage. Too many red flags pointing in that direction. I don't believe they were true Northmen, more likely brought with the Normans from the Poitou region or Brittany where my dna "cousin" reports ancestry. As I've stated elsewhere our tmrca places us just before the Norman invasion of England.

Arch
05-30-2014, 05:41 AM
So.. A wave of Celts migrating south and intermixing with Aquitani, Ilergertes and then finally settling down and becoming the Celtiberi?? :)

You forgot a few: Tartessians, Cynetes, and Lusitanians comingling and becoming Iberian. Let's not forget King Tut who is the progenitor of our line. LOL.

Arch

Arch
05-30-2014, 05:45 AM
Sam, you had to go there, why? Why, oh, why?

LOL. Probably because it's the only "constructive" response he could muster? DOH! Just kidding bruh! :-)

Arch

Arch
05-30-2014, 05:50 AM
Yes, I remember reading that. I won't mention his name or the information, as I don't know if he wants it spread, but it will be interesting if his lineage pans out the way he mentioned. I agree there does seem to be a more, dare I say it, Germanic/Eastern vibe about you N/S guys. I'm still in a weird place with my lineage which I'm pretty sure is of Norman heritage. Too many red flags pointing in that direction. I don't believe they were true Northmen, more likely brought with the Normans from the Poitou region or Brittany where my dna "cousin" reports ancestry. As I've stated elsewhere our tmrca places us just before the Norman invasion of England.

Since they were not true Northmen, were they quasi-Northmen or some sort of alternative hybrid-Northmen? Perhaps South-Northmen or North-Southmen? :D

Arch

Webb
05-30-2014, 10:17 AM
Yes, I remember reading that. I won't mention his name or the information, as I don't know if he wants it spread, but it will be interesting if his lineage pans out the way he mentioned. I agree there does seem to be a more, dare I say it, Germanic/Eastern vibe about you N/S guys. I'm still in a weird place with my lineage which I'm pretty sure is of Norman heritage. Too many red flags pointing in that direction. I don't believe they were true Northmen, more likely brought with the Normans from the Poitou region or Brittany where my dna "cousin" reports ancestry. As I've stated elsewhere our tmrca places us just before the Norman invasion of England.

From what I have read the army contained a Norman regiment, a Burgundian regiment, Flemish regiment, and a Breton regiment.

Gray Fox
05-30-2014, 08:18 PM
Since they were not true Northmen, were they quasi-Northmen or some sort of alternative hybrid-Northmen? Perhaps South-Northmen or North-Southmen? :D

Arch


LOL. Probably because it's the only "constructive" response he could muster? DOH! Just kidding bruh! :-)

Arch


You forgot a few: Tartessians, Cynetes, and Lusitanians comingling and becoming Iberian. Let's not forget King Tut who is the progenitor of our line. LOL.

Arch

How I've missed your sarcastic charm :rolleyes:

Of course I didn't forget the progenitor of our line! I always dressed up like a mummy as a kid, so I guess that's where that came from!

I prefer semi-quasi North/South men ;)

Stephen Parrish
05-31-2014, 07:43 PM
How I've missed your sarcastic charm :rolleyes:

Of course I didn't forget the progenitor of our line! I always dressed up like a mummy as a kid, so I guess that's where that came from!

I prefer semi-quasi North/South men ;)

Sam -

Are your semi-quasi North/South men in the North-South cluster? :)

Stephen

Stephen Parrish
05-31-2014, 07:49 PM
Stephen,

Should be interesting to find out if my positioning goes further down the tree. I'm thinking it will and to what extent should also be an interesting find because it looks like SRY2627 has quite a few new branches underneath it. Good news for such a subclade that only makes nearly 3% or less of the WAMH altogether in order to get a better geographic idea of ancestral origins. Bad news because it means decreasing numbers of participants will be found in particular branches as SRY2627 continues to branch off. Hopefully we can get to the true terminal SNPs of SRY2627 soon and not have to keep testing for SNPs downstream.

Arch

Arch -

Your L659+ private SNP is downstream from one of three SNPs: it is certainly downstream from CTS8289+; or it is downstream from Z207+ if you have that; or it is downstream from CTS4299+ if you have that. (As more Big Y and Full Genomes results arrive, we should find even more SNPs between CTS8289+ and CTS4299+.)

Stephen

Arch
06-01-2014, 04:43 AM
Arch -

Your L659+ private SNP is downstream from one of three SNPs: it is certainly downstream from CTS8289+; or it is downstream from Z207+ if you have that; or it is downstream from CTS4299+ if you have that. (As more Big Y and Full Genomes results arrive, we should find even more SNPs between CTS8289+ and CTS4299+.)

Stephen

Ughh, no more SNPs! I'm sure there's literally hundreds, if not thousands of SNPs under SRY2627. $40.00 x 1000 is just a ridiculous amount of money to spend testing for SNPs. How much more resolution do we really need?

Arch

Arch
06-01-2014, 04:47 AM
LOL. I'm sure you were bored out of your mind. Glad I could provide you some entertainment. :)

Stephen Parrish
06-03-2014, 08:54 PM
Ughh, no more SNPs! I'm sure there's literally hundreds, if not thousands of SNPs under SRY2627. $40.00 x 1000 is just a ridiculous amount of money to spend testing for SNPs. How much more resolution do we really need?

Arch

Arch -

I concur with your comment about the cost of testing; yet even now, as the cost of full Y chromosome sequencing (as full as is possible now) decreases, it is possible to test for almost every presently known Y chromosome SNP for no more than approximately $ 1100.

As for the number of SNPs under SRY2627+, we should find many SNPs (how many I do not know), as you mentioned, below SRY2627+ that are not highly reliable. If, however, we confine our analysis to highly reliable SNPs under SRY2627+, we might expect to see perhaps about fifty highly reliable SNPs below SRY2627+ in any one SRY2627+ individual.

Stephen

Arch
06-16-2014, 08:35 PM
Okay batch 573 is about 3 to 7 weeks out. Anybody know a more accurate date for this batch to be released? Also, if my result ends up CTS4299-, then what?

Arch

Stephen Parrish
06-16-2014, 10:17 PM
Okay batch 573 is about 3 to 7 weeks out. Anybody know a more accurate date for this batch to be released? Also, if my result ends up CTS4299-, then what?

Arch

Arch -

Although I don't have a more accurate release date for batch 573, I will be monitoring results in the DF27+ and SRY2627+ projects.

You ask what will happen if you have CTS4299-. I have some recent news that you might find of interest: it turns out that one DF27+ and SRY2627+ project member whose terminal SNP was thought to be CTS8289+ has Z208+, which is located between CTS8289+ and Z207+. As soon as I have time, I will review my Full Genomes Corporation and Big Y results so that I can look for other known SNPs between CTS8289+ and CTS4299+. Please stay tuned... :)

Stephen

Arch
06-16-2014, 10:40 PM
Arch -

Although I don't have a more accurate release date for batch 573, I will be monitoring results in the DF27+ and SRY2627+ projects.

You ask what will happen if you have CTS4299-. I have some recent news that you might find of interest: it turns out that one DF27+ and SRY2627+ project member whose terminal SNP was thought to be CTS8289+ has Z208+, which is located between CTS8289+ and Z207+. As soon as I have time, I will review my Full Genomes Corporation and Big Y results so that I can look for other known SNPs between CTS8289+ and CTS4299+. Please stay tuned... :)

Stephen

Very cool that you are doing both the Big Y and the Full Genomes Corp test. Hopefully we can get more SRY2627+ people to take the plunge and get us more results. Seems like the data is coming at us faster than we can process it. That's a good thing I hope and perhaps it would give academia additional resources when conducting population genetics studies.

Arch

Arch
06-19-2014, 08:50 PM
I have a question. Why are we not seeing the following persons who are from Spain, SRY2627+, DYS 490 = 10 in the SRY2627/L176.2 Project?

ZJ2YT - Escudero (Ontur, Spain)
7QGNK - Garcia (Mexico)
Y9BNT - Hernandez
3R7Z5 - Homs (Girona, Catalunya)

I'm sure there's more, but these few caught my attention. We also have a person DYS 490 = 10 from the Piedmont region of Italy.

Arch

Gray Fox
06-20-2014, 01:57 AM
Because they haven't joined... :noidea:

There's also a few Southwest English people who haven't joined:

94G2X Dibblee - Somerset, England

K8GSQ Haley - Cornwall, England

7PS6Q Jillard - Plymouth, Devon, England

6cyxc George - Cornwall, United Kingdom

Arch
06-20-2014, 04:20 AM
Because they haven't joined... :noidea:

There's also a few Southwest English people who haven't joined:

94G2X Dibblee - Somerset, England

K8GSQ Haley - Cornwall, England

7PS6Q Jillard - Plymouth, Devon, England

6cyxc George - Cornwall, United Kingdom

George has been a member of SRY2627 since the ancient days when there were but a mere handful of participants at best. I'm quite amazed he hasn't upgraded much or bothered to join the SRY2627+ group.

Arch

Stephen Parrish
06-20-2014, 02:11 PM
George has been a member of SRY2627 since the ancient days when there were but a mere handful of participants at best. I'm quite amazed he hasn't upgraded much or bothered to join the SRY2627+ group.

Arch

Arch and Sam -

Did you use Ysearch to find SRY2627+ people who are not members of the SRY2627+ project? If not, how did you find them? Do all of the people from southwestern England have DYS490 = 10?

Stephen

Gray Fox
06-20-2014, 06:04 PM
Arch and Sam -

Did you use Ysearch to find SRY2627+ people who are not members of the SRY2627+ project? If not, how did you find them? Do all of the people from southwestern England have DYS490 = 10?

Stephen

Stephen,

Jillard has DYS490=10. The Cornish guys aren't tested out far enough to determine which group they belong to. From those have joined and tested out far enough, the numbers appear to be fairly even between DYS490=10&12. Yes, these fine fellows are located on Ysearch.

What's interesting about this Southwest group is that most of them seem to have surnames that are Norman/French in origin. I'll include a few others who simply have French derived surnames but aren't necessarily in the Southwest.

Venable - Recorded as Venable and Venables, this interesting name is English but of Norman-French origins. It is locational from a place called Venables in the arrondissement of Louviers in Eure, Normandy. The surname was introduced into England by followers of William the Conqueror after the Conquest of 1066. The placename is derived from the Latin word "venabulum", meaning hunting ground, a derivative of the verb "venari", to hunt.

Dibblee - This unusual surname is of French derivation. It was introduced by the Normans after the 1066 invasion, but in fact the true origin is much older, and maybe pre-Christian. It has two possible derivations, the first from the Roman (Latin) 'debil-is', which seems to have been a metonymic for a doctor or healer, one who dealt with the sick. The literal translation is 'poorly or weak', whilst the second possible origin according to the eminent Victorian etymologist Canon C W Bardsley, was a nickname derivation from the old French 'Theodore' to Tibald and Tibble or Dibble, Deble etc. Certainly the name as a surname, in all its various spellings, seems to have become popular from the 12th century in Britain. Today the spellings are usually Deble, Deeble, De Bell, Debell, Dibble, Dible, Debill, Debold, Daybell and Diable.

Jillard - This is a surname of Norman-French 11th Century origins, and when pronounced with the hard "G" is derived from Guillaume (the French William), plus the suffix "ard", a form of descriptive diminutive translating as "son of Gullaume", when pronounced with a "J" sound, the derivation is from "Gille", the French form of the Old German "Gilo", itself derived from the Greek for "kid".

Gossett - This interesting name, with variant spellings Gosset and Gossett, is of French Huguenot origin and derives from the Olde French 'gosse', literally meaning 'kid' i.e. a young boy or girl, plus the diminutive suffix 'et(t)'. The name is widely recorded in London church registers from the mid 17th Century, (see below), a time when thousands of French Huguenot refugees entered England to escape religious persecutions in their own country.

Chancey - This surname seems to derive from the Old French word "cheaunce,"which means "chance," and as such was likely a nickname for a gambler, for a lucky person, or ironically, for an unlucky person.

Corbin - This most interesting surname may have derived from either of two origins. Firstly, it may be of locational origin, from either Corbon in Calvados or Corbon in Orne, in France. Hence the name may have arrived in England after the Norman Conquest of 1066. The surname may also have derived as a nickname for a man with strikingly glossy black hair or for one with a raucous voice, from the Middle English or the Old French "Corbin" Corbun", raven. The personal name was recorded as "Corbin(us)" in the Domesday Book of 1086 in Warwickshire and Kent. The surname itself is first recorded in the late 11th Century

Cantrell- This very interesting name is early medieval and job descriptive, and refers to a bellman, one who rang the 'Chanterelles' - the trebles, or who sang the treble in a choir. The derivation is from the Olde French, the word being introduced by the Normans after 1066. There are at least five modern alternative spellings including Chantrell, Chantrill, Cantrell, Cantrill and Cantwell, sometimes the name is a diminutive meaning 'Son of Cant or Chant'.

Merville - This was also locational, from Merville in the department of Nord. First introduced into the British Isles after the Norman Conquest of 1066 as Merville, it was reintroduced by Huguenot protestant refugees between 1580 and 1730.

Arch
06-21-2014, 05:17 AM
Arch and Sam -

Did you use Ysearch to find SRY2627+ people who are not members of the SRY2627+ project? If not, how did you find them? Do all of the people from southwestern England have DYS490 = 10?

Stephen

Yes, I used Ysearch and I was quite amazed at how there's still a disconnect between FTDNA testers and Ysearch data. I thought they had this sorted out but I keep seeing new SRY2627 persons who have tested at FTDNA but they are not in our group project. I though perhaps they would automatically be enrolled with the option of opting out of the project - I don't get it. It just seems the left hand is not talking to the right hand.

Arch

Gray Fox
06-21-2014, 07:24 PM
It appears that the Tremblay family of Quebec is SRY2627. The family has long been established as a sort of dynasty in Quebec due to their Patriarch, Pierre Tremblay. Today it is the most common name in Quebec.

http://www.deloriahurst.com/deloriahurst%20page/273.html

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults

http://www.ysearch.org/research_comparative.asp?uid=&vallist=RE9GC%2C+YD35Q%2C+YH9VP%2C+8FSAV&recaptcha_challenge_field=03AHJ_VusiVHBb_tih2G-bHa8wsh663C8vJe-e1E4gOptejaaYm0s8AIOiwQP6gzI8FUEtoKHuGnd8LTJgEXudN 282RKb42b09V-dkR4XdjtYu3OXzAHn9j4k8kLwgRYEtFMCvtX69vu27jqMjDWda w1PKkLAYcCLmExO5s7vN-cDbc2sbI480p11AnMBcmGmxqqCEzvYIrzOb&recaptcha_response_field=she+ckedpose

Gray Fox
06-21-2014, 07:28 PM
Yes, I used Ysearch and I was quite amazed at how there's still a disconnect between FTDNA testers and Ysearch data. I thought they had this sorted out but I keep seeing new SRY2627 persons who have tested at FTDNA but they are not in our group project. I though perhaps they would automatically be enrolled with the option of opting out of the project - I don't get it. It just seems the left hand is not talking to the right hand.

Arch

Agreed, there at least five or more people who are in the French heritage project who are SRY2627 and L176.2 that I have either never seen or aren't in our project.

Stephen Parrish
06-21-2014, 08:20 PM
Yes, I used Ysearch and I was quite amazed at how there's still a disconnect between FTDNA testers and Ysearch data. I thought they had this sorted out but I keep seeing new SRY2627 persons who have tested at FTDNA but they are not in our group project. I though perhaps they would automatically be enrolled with the option of opting out of the project - I don't get it. It just seems the left hand is not talking to the right hand.

Arch

Arch -

An FTDNA customer who qualifies for membership in a Y-SNP haplogroup project is not enrolled automatically; he is supposed to take the first step to join.

Stephen

ArmandoR1b
06-22-2014, 01:46 PM
Has anyone invited those people to join the project?

Gray Fox
06-23-2014, 07:38 PM
Has anyone invited those people to join the project?

I've spoken to a few of the French SRY2627 that are floating around. I think two of them have joined, but this was sometime last year. Some of these of people have been inactive for years. The Cornish individual, surname George, has only tested to twelve markers and I believe has been inactive for quite some time. Its a common thing amongst all haplogroups, but groups such as ours, which are much smaller, probably notice it more.

Arch
06-23-2014, 09:11 PM
It appears that the Tremblay family of Quebec is SRY2627. The family has long been established as a sort of dynasty in Quebec due to their Patriarch, Pierre Tremblay. Today it is the most common name in Quebec.

http://www.deloriahurst.com/deloriahurst%20page/273.html

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults

http://www.ysearch.org/research_comparative.asp?uid=&vallist=RE9GC%2C+YD35Q%2C+YH9VP%2C+8FSAV&recaptcha_challenge_field=03AHJ_VusiVHBb_tih2G-bHa8wsh663C8vJe-e1E4gOptejaaYm0s8AIOiwQP6gzI8FUEtoKHuGnd8LTJgEXudN 282RKb42b09V-dkR4XdjtYu3OXzAHn9j4k8kLwgRYEtFMCvtX69vu27jqMjDWda w1PKkLAYcCLmExO5s7vN-cDbc2sbI480p11AnMBcmGmxqqCEzvYIrzOb&recaptcha_response_field=she+ckedpose

Very cool that you are finding out all this detailed information. I was wondering about the Quebec results for SRY2627 since we seem to have a lot of French ancestry in our subclade. I think there is one individual in our project way up in northern Quebec. Also, given that Quebec City and La Rochelle, France have a deep historical connection it just seems odd we don't have more Quebecois results. Another region I would expect to see a larger number would be the Acadian region of Nova Scotia, unless everybody really did get deported to LA to become Cajuns. :-D Unfortunately we probably won't see much in terms of French in Jacksonville, FL or near or south of Charleston, SC since the Spaniards probably annihilated all or most of the earlier French settlements in North America.

Arch

Mark D
06-24-2014, 01:40 PM
Very cool that you are finding out all this detailed information. I was wondering about the Quebec results for SRY2627 since we seem to have a lot of French ancestry in our subclade. I think there is one individual in our project way up in northern Quebec. Also, given that Quebec City and La Rochelle, France have a deep historical connection it just seems odd we don't have more Quebecois results. Another region I would expect to see a larger number would be the Acadian region of Nova Scotia, unless everybody really did get deported to LA to become Cajuns. :-D Unfortunately we probably won't see much in terms of French in Jacksonville, FL or near or south of Charleston, SC since the Spaniards probably annihilated all or most of the earlier French settlements in North America.

Arch

Don't forget adoptees, like myself, whose surnames are not indicative of ancestry. My putative birth father was French Canadian. Hopefully, more from Canada will test in the future and we can obtain a clearer picture of the phylogeny.

Arch
06-25-2014, 09:10 PM
Don't forget adoptees, like myself, whose surnames are not indicative of ancestry. My putative birth father was French Canadian. Hopefully, more from Canada will test in the future and we can obtain a clearer picture of the phylogeny.

I'm always cognizant of that fact and given that SRY2627 is found all over the place makes it even more apparent to not solely rely on surnames for indicators of ancestry. I may notice a large number of Germanic, French, or Spanish surnames, but NPEs are always in the back of my mind as well.

Arch

Arch
06-25-2014, 09:14 PM
I received an email that Gareth submitted a Z207+ test for me using the SRY2627 general fund. I'm not seeing any results on my FTDNA page yet but I am guessing that I am SRY2627+/CTS4299-. ?? Edit: I just answered my own question, just looked at the R haplogroup tree and see CTS4299 in red (meaning negative). Interesting.

Arch

Arch
06-25-2014, 09:31 PM
If I turn out Z205+ or any other + under SRY2627, I would like to have Toone and Juillet tested for the same SNP and I would like to pay for both tests.

Arch

Stephen Parrish
06-26-2014, 12:36 PM
If I turn out Z205+ or any other + under SRY2627, I would like to have Toone and Juillet tested for the same SNP and I would like to pay for both tests.

Arch

Arch -

You have Z205+ because it is upstream from CTS8289+, which all DYS490 = 10 SRY2627+ individuals have - so as long as Toone and Juillet have DYS490 = 10, there will be no need to have them tested for Z205+. :)

Stephen

Arch
06-26-2014, 03:55 PM
Arch -

You have Z205+ because it is upstream from CTS8289+, which all DYS490 = 10 SRY2627+ individuals have - so as long as Toone and Juillet have DYS490 = 10, there will be no need to have them tested for Z205+. :)

Stephen

My apologies, I meant Z207+. I'm sure Gareth has an idea what STRs already tested to determine the newer SNPs downstream or upstream to test for.

Arch

Stephen Parrish
06-26-2014, 11:10 PM
My apologies, I meant Z207+. I'm sure Gareth has an idea what STRs already tested to determine the newer SNPs downstream or upstream to test for.

Arch

Arch -

You do not need to apologize. :) Because I knew the outcome of your Z207 test, what I posted this morning still applies to you. Now that I have seen what you meant to type, how will your revised post affect Toone and Juillet? I will try to find out what SNPs they have tested.

Stephen

Arch
06-27-2014, 05:24 AM
Arch -

You do not need to apologize. :) Because I knew the outcome of your Z207 test, what I posted this morning still applies to you. Now that I have seen what you meant to type, how will your revised post affect Toone and Juillet? I will try to find out what SNPs they have tested.

Stephen

I am in contact with a member of the Toone family and she is vigorously researching the lineage. She came across some documentation showing a James Yeomans and James Tune and I'm curious as to why I am unable to find more information about James Yeomans in Northern Neck, VA (Farnham Parish). Tune has the closest GD to me that I'm aware of and that is followed by Juillet. Tune and myself have equal GD to Juillet and I thought it's not likely to be just a mere coincidence. I'm curious if Tune is going to be positioned in the same branch as mine when and if I ever get assigned to another one.

Arch

Arch
07-14-2014, 11:26 PM
Man, 3-7 weeks for the results to come in. Seems like it is taking forever.

Arch

WayOut West
07-16-2014, 01:07 PM
I'm waiting on my PF6913

Batch 568 - 1 to 2 weeks (3 weeks ago)

Humph!

Arch
07-18-2014, 05:02 AM
Results are in! I'm Z207+! Next steps?

Arch

Stephen Parrish
07-18-2014, 11:44 AM
Results are in! I'm Z207+! Next steps?

Arch

Arch -

Before you proceed further, please let me look at what is known to be under CTS8289+ and Z207+.

Stephen

Stephen Parrish
07-18-2014, 11:54 AM
I'm waiting on my PF6913

Batch 568 - 1 to 2 weeks (3 weeks ago)

Humph!

PF6913+ appears to be a recurrent SNP; Ybrowse tells me that it is found in haplogroup I and FTDNA's new haplotree places it under L176.2+.

Are you a member of FTDNA's DF27+ and Subclades and SRY2627+/L176.2+/Z198+ projects?

Stephen

Stephen Parrish
07-18-2014, 03:28 PM
Arch -

Before you proceed further, please let me look at what is known to be under CTS8289+ and Z207+.

Stephen

Arch -

Because Z208+ lies between CTS8289+ and Z207+, you will not need to test Z208. Because CTS606+ and CTS8289+ are parallel, you will not need to test CTS606, since we already know that you have CTS8289+.

Stephen

WayOut West
07-19-2014, 01:28 AM
PF6913+ appears to be a recurrent SNP; Ybrowse tells me that it is found in haplogroup I and FTDNA's new haplotree places it under L176.2+.

Are you a member of FTDNA's DF27+ and Subclades and SRY2627+/L176.2+/Z198+ projects?

Stephen

Hi, Stephen

Thanks for the info and yes, I am in the two projects - 209708

Arch
07-22-2014, 02:35 AM
Arch -

Because Z208+ lies between CTS8289+ and Z207+, you will not need to test Z208. Because CTS606+ and CTS8289+ are parallel, you will not need to test CTS606, since we already know that you have CTS8289+.

Stephen

So, I pretty much have nothing else to test for until another downstream SNP is discovered. Cool!

Arch

Stephen Parrish
07-22-2014, 01:05 PM
So, I pretty much have nothing else to test for until another downstream SNP is discovered. Cool!

Arch

Arch -

Under Z207+ you probably have 40 to 50 unnamed SNPs (depending on how many SNPs lie between Z207+ and CTS4299+) and your L659+ SNP.

Stephen

Arch
07-23-2014, 03:56 AM
Arch -

Under Z207+ you probably have 40 to 50 unnamed SNPs (depending on how many SNPs lie between Z207+ and CTS4299+) and your L659+ SNP.

Stephen

I figured that much. Great! I also noticed that Jim Rader is also Z207+. His ancestry points to Amsterdam I believe and I thought was quite interesting. I do know of a John Yeoman who owned two merchant ships 'John of London' and 'Trinite Bole' aka 'Trinity Bull' and if I'm not mistaken he was traveling between London and the region of Holland. This was in the 1400s. No idea if I have a connection to him but it's worth turning over every rock and leaf. I'm not sure of Cobb's ancestry but I would be interested to know. Another interesting point is that it looks like Johann Gaspar Rotter signed an allegiance of oath to the King of England. I know there is a Benjamin Yeomans who was a United Empire Loyalists connected to Ontario, CA but no idea if I'm connected to him either. Currently trying to figure out the James Yeomans and James Tune connection in 1665 in Northern Neck. I might have a promising lead that connects James Yeomans to a Simon Yeomans of Botolph with Billingsgate in the Billingsgate Ward of London. I also found an interesting Robert Yeomans of Tower Ward and was just basically down the street from Simon Yeomans with two houses on Harp St near the Tower of London and one possibly on Leadenhall (of course, these are replace by big tall buildings) Robert was a goldsmith and Simon was a fishmonger who signed the Second Charter for the Colonization of Virginia. I would love to know if the two families are connected seeing as how close they are to each other just merely a few hundred yards away at the same time frame in the 1590s and early 1600s.

Arch

Gray Fox
09-08-2014, 08:15 AM
This thread has become a ghost town! The recent Catalonia study didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know and I believe P312 in general is in a rut. Here's a few semargl maps showing the L176.2 family. Any thoughts on ancient ethnic groups? I think what Arch and I were saying at worldfamilies is still the best description, A Celto-Aquitanian subclade. The Pictones and Santones probably had healthy doses of L176.2 and SRY2627 as both maps show a fairly strong presence there.

L176.2 Pan Euro distribution

2556

SRY2627 Pan Euro distribution

2557

L165 Pan Euro distribution

2558

Webb
09-08-2014, 11:27 AM
This thread has become a ghost town! The recent Catalonia study didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know and I believe P312 in general is in a rut. Here's a few semargl maps showing the L176.2 family. Any thoughts on ancient ethnic groups? I think what Arch and I were saying at worldfamilies is still the best description, A Celto-Aquitanian subclade. The Pictones and Santones probably had healthy doses of L176.2 and SRY2627 as both maps show a fairly strong presence there.

L176.2 Pan Euro distribution

2556

SRY2627 Pan Euro distribution

2557

L165 Pan Euro distribution

2558

Lately I have been wondering if L165 happened in the British isles. I don't know the age of it though. At first it was assumed to be Scandinavian in origin. I have poured over everything I can find on L165, and the instances of it outside the British isles, seem to me to be outliers. Just my wonderings. There is a definite sphere of DF27 in Northern Europe though.

Mark D
09-08-2014, 01:59 PM
This thread has become a ghost town! The recent Catalonia study didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know and I believe P312 in general is in a rut. Here's a few semargl maps showing the L176.2 family. Any thoughts on ancient ethnic groups? I think what Arch and I were saying at worldfamilies is still the best description, A Celto-Aquitanian subclade. The Pictones and Santones probably had healthy doses of L176.2 and SRY2627 as both maps show a fairly strong presence there.

L176.2 Pan Euro distribution

2556

SRY2627 Pan Euro distribution

2557

L165 Pan Euro distribution

2558

Do we have reliable approximate dates for these mutations? I know its fun to speculate on origins, but given the limited number of tests taken, isn't it almost impossible to draw conclusions based on the current locations of those few who have tested? Aren't these maps skewed by the prevalence of Americans and British in the current group of those who have tested? If suddenly everyone in Switzerland tested tomorrow, wouldn't you all conclude that Switzerland was the origin of every SNP? Aren't we discovering from Big Y that there are many, many SNPs below L176?

I share 31 novel variants with only one other individual, below L176, including L147.3 that was found from Deep Clade; I also have 17 singletons. Now I don't know how many or which are reliable, which ones are significant, or when they occurred, but it seems to me that with so many potentially below L176 we are only at the beginning of understanding the phylogeny. At this point I consider my Y-DNA as simply Western European, nothing more specific than that. But please, try to convince me otherwise; as an adoptee, I too love to speculate on my ethnic origins.

Gray Fox
09-09-2014, 12:16 PM
[QUOTE=Mark D;51140]

Do we have reliable approximate dates for these mutations?

SRY2627 is currently estimated anywhere from 3500 years to 3000 at the high end of the estimates and 1200 to 2500 at the low end. So I'm assuming L176.2 being the Grandfather of M167 and father of L165, that these clades are somewhere within that age frame as well. Though these age estimates are an open ended argument and nothing is conclusive. So, no we don't have truly reliable approximations. As people change estimates to fit certain patterns its really more of what is currently the flavor of the month thing with regards to what age estimates are correct and those which are now considered ridiculous. I'm certainly not a historian and I don't have a particular dog in any fight. I just kind of sit back and listen to everyone else bicker. Though I'll give my uneducated opinion here and there. Its ever changing and that's a good thing.

I know its fun to speculate on origins, but given the limited number of tests taken, isn't it almost impossible to draw conclusions based on the current locations of those few who have tested?

We have a general idea of the spread of these sub clades, though there is a lot left to be desired. SRY2627 is one of the most studied sub clades and I believe one of the earliest discovered of all of P312's "Grandsons". Of course this was well before the major re-writings of the phylogeny and discovery of its actual placement in the scheme of all things P312. Never the less, it still has had a major advantage in being available (commercial testing) from a much earlier starting point. So it can be viewed, with a high degree of skepticism, in the light that I am trying to view it. As you said, this is more of a just for fun exercise. Really its more of an everyone else is doing it(making blind assumptions about something we have know way of knowing or proving),so why can't we?

Aren't these maps skewed by the prevalence of Americans and British in the current group of those who have tested?

Yes, though my main point of interest in these maps were the continental results. This being the reason I didn't mention either of those places and also the reason I didn't include the North American distribution map. There is a gaping hole in what should be France with regards to academic numbers and these maps and dna groups are showing that these sub clades do indeed have roots in places that seem to be over-looked in academic studies. Granted, France isn't a place that can be studied with any degree of great detail, unfortunately. And its not just France, aside from the UK, Belgium, The Netherlands and Spain we really don't have much to go by. These maps and data aren't restricted to academic procedures, so while they may not be as "accurate" as the academic methods, they aren't held back by them either and we can get data in a somewhat unbiased manner. Though this method obviously has its flaws too.

If suddenly everyone in Switzerland tested tomorrow, wouldn't you all conclude that Switzerland was the origin of every SNP? Aren't we discovering from Big Y that there are many, many SNPs below L176?

Certainly not, though Switzerland may be a good launch point for the fore runners to the clades we are discussing. Who knows? I'm certainly not advocating that these clades arose within a specific country or ethnic group. As you mention below, we don't know if all of these new snps are reliable and will affect the group overall or if they are just "noise" and are limited to one particular individual y-line. The amount of time that it may take to figure this mess out is staggering. When one includes the numerous difficulties in creating viable tests for these snps and then the amount of time for public and academic testing and interpretation of the results, we're talking tens of years of waiting. I'm certainly not going to wait for that day to speculate on these matters, especially when the new wave of snps that you are mentioning may not even be important beyond individual y-lines.

"I share 31 novel variants with only one other individual, below L176, including L147.3 that was found from Deep Clade; I also have 17 singletons. Now I don't know how many or which are reliable, which ones are significant, or when they occurred, but it seems to me that with so many potentially below L176 we are only at the beginning of understanding the phylogeny. At this point I consider my Y-DNA as simply Western European, nothing more specific than that."

But please, try to convince me otherwise; as an adoptee, I too love to speculate on my ethnic origins.

I doubt I'll be able to convince you. Your points are valid and the only thing you can do is wait if your holding out for that level of specificity. I'm not one to wait, I'd rather get in there and break something then wait for the instruction manual :P

Gray Fox
09-09-2014, 12:54 PM
Lately I have been wondering if L165 happened in the British isles. I don't know the age of it though. At first it was assumed to be Scandinavian in origin. I have poured over everything I can find on L165, and the instances of it outside the British isles, seem to me to be outliers. Just my wonderings. There is a definite sphere of DF27 in Northern Europe though.

I'm not sure of an exact estimate either, but it is surely older than SRY2627. I agree about the outliers.

Gray Fox
09-11-2014, 05:39 AM
My group admin has ordered the following SNP's.. R-Z202 and R-CTS 4015. I'm not seeing anything on CTS 4015?

Gray Fox
09-20-2014, 06:19 PM
Isaacs group are negative for Z202..

*Wow you guys are quick! I checked the SRY2627 project and we've already been moved. Keep up the good work guys!

WayOut West
10-04-2014, 09:07 AM
I know it's not as interesting a topic to you guys, but well, I guess it was inevitable. PF6913-

Brings me back to the Mars theory again with nothing left to test.

Is it worth me doing the Big Y?

Arch
10-07-2014, 09:44 PM
For the life of me I can't find the research paper that contained data about SRY2627+ populations found in southern France. Anybody know which paper contained this information? I would like to know if its possible to get a detailed breakdown showing the number of samples collected that are representative of the population for each department in southern France and each comarca in northern Spain. Additionally, any numbers for SRY2627 found in Andorra would also be much appreciated.Thanks.

Arch

R.Rocca
10-07-2014, 11:36 PM
Arch, not sure if your are talking about this one?... http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00478.x/pdf

Gray Fox
10-08-2014, 01:05 AM
I believe it was this study.. "A 2012 study by Martinez-Cruz et al. found the following percentages of SRY2627: 7% in the three French departments of the Pays de Basque, 16% in Bearn, 14% in Bigorre, 7% in Chalosse, 6% in the Basque regions of Spain, 15% in La Rioja, and 19% in northern Aragon."

Arch
10-08-2014, 03:43 AM
Arch, not sure if your are talking about this one?... http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00478.x/pdf

Richard,

I found it in Wikipedia. Sam is right it's the Martinez-Cruz study. I'm looking for the number of the sample population per department (France) and comarqa (Spain) that tested SRY2627+ rather than the percentages. Thanks.

Arch

Gray Fox
10-08-2014, 10:53 AM
Isaacs group is now negative for Z200 and Z202. Is Z205 still an option?

Stephen Parrish
10-08-2014, 06:44 PM
Sam -

Let's look at the Z262+ branch of YFull's tree: http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z262/

On the line where you see Z262, let your mouse hover over "10 SNPs" and you will see Z202, Z205, and so forth, all presumably phylogenetically equivalent to Z262+ according to YFull's experimental tree (it might turn out otherwise). Z262+ is known to be upstream from SRY2627+. If Z200+ and Z202+ are upstream from SRY2627+, then how could you have Z200- and Z202-? If, on the other hand, your Z200- and Z202- results are correct, then Z200+ and Z202+ should be downstream from SRY2627+ (I have Z200+ and Z202+.)

I am reasonably certain that Z205+ is under SRY2627+. How Z200, Z202, and Z205 should be placed relative to one another is unclear. Let me see what I can find out.

Stephen

Arch
10-09-2014, 08:30 AM
I can't seem to find the supplementary data or tables that reflect the cited SRY2627 percentages in Wikipedia from the Martinez-Cruz, et al study. Nowhere in the body of the research paper does it indicate any percentages for SRY2627 in the regions identified. Where did all the supplementary data go to?

I even went as far to download the Ramos-Luiz paper for $19.00 because unfortunately my institution did not have access to this very limited article. None of the information I was looking for was in this article. It seems the Martinez-Cruz study references the Ramos-Luiz sans all the number of samples tested SRY2627+, or R1b1b2d, for each region identified in the papers.

What am I missing? I could have sworn I seen the supplementary data a long time ago for SRY2627+ in the Martinez-Cruz, et al study and it all seems to have vanished except for a blurb in Wikipedia for M-167.

Arch

Gray Fox
10-12-2014, 01:02 AM
Is there any info on CTS4015? That's the last of the snps that my admin ordered.

ArmandoR1b
10-12-2014, 01:03 PM
I can't seem to find the supplementary data or tables that reflect the cited SRY2627 percentages in Wikipedia from the Martinez-Cruz, et al study. Nowhere in the body of the research paper does it indicate any percentages for SRY2627 in the regions identified. Where did all the supplementary data go to?

I even went as far to download the Ramos-Luiz paper for $19.00 because unfortunately my institution did not have access to this very limited article. None of the information I was looking for was in this article. It seems the Martinez-Cruz study references the Ramos-Luiz sans all the number of samples tested SRY2627+, or R1b1b2d, for each region identified in the papers.

What am I missing? I could have sworn I seen the supplementary data a long time ago for SRY2627+ in the Martinez-Cruz, et al study and it all seems to have vanished except for a blurb in Wikipedia for M-167.

Arch

The site is slow sometimes. The data is in the XLS file table 3 at http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/12/molbev.mss091/suppl/DC1

Gray Fox
11-10-2014, 11:54 PM
I see from Mark's tmrca calculations that SRY2627 (DYS490=12) is at the max ybp around 3900 years. The base seems to be just around 3000 ybp. Compared to the DYS490=10 it seems that subgroup is now reading as being just a tad older. Seems this is slightly off as the modal for P312 is 12 at DYS490, so the 490=10 variety should be younger. Am I missing something here?

razyn
11-11-2014, 02:41 AM
The modal is what is now most common for the group -- no reason to think that is the oldest form, at any specific marker (including one that distinguishes the majority from a subgroup, such as DYS490). People refer to it as the "founder's haplotype" and so on, but it isn't. Only way to know that is to dig up the founder and test him. Otherwise it's a matter of statistics and probability -- greater confidence with larger samples, age better estimated with many markers tested, etc.

Arch
11-12-2014, 05:46 AM
The modal is what is now most common for the group -- no reason to think that is the oldest form, at any specific marker (including one that distinguishes the majority from a subgroup, such as DYS490). People refer to it as the "founder's haplotype" and so on, but it isn't. Only way to know that is to dig up the founder and test him. Otherwise it's a matter of statistics and probability -- greater confidence with larger samples, age better estimated with many markers tested, etc.
.
Agreed. You have to look at the Standard Deviation and the upper and lower range of the Confidence Interval Levels. I first noticed the age differences between the older SRY2627 showing as being younger than the DYS490=10 SRY2627+ folks and scratched my head for a second. However, I remembered that it's all probability with a fairly wide CI, it would be nice to see all the p-values and other statistical data. What I find remarkable is how close the age estimations are to Hurles, et al estimations around 3400 using ASD. I can't recall the exact difference between all the ages I worked out in Statcrunch with all the accumulated data, but it was around 80 years between Anatov's founder and Hurle's oldest age estimation both using 30 years generation timeline.

Interesting.

Arch

Arch
11-12-2014, 06:13 AM
Is there any possible way to get YSearch User ID: ZRVY6 to be tested for DYS490? I really would wish the genomic testing companies dispense with their bikini haplotyping. Arghh! I haven't been on YSearch in a while and noticed this new name. His ancestry is possibly from Catalonia but most recent ancestry is in Pollenza, Mallorca. I hope some day we might find SRY2627 in connection with the Catalans that made their way in establishing California. We hear of Spaniards but the truth is that Catalans were the ones who led the first expeditions, missions, and permanent settlements in the state. Gaspar de Portola's family is from the Llieda region and Arties, Val d'Aran. There weren't many Catalans, the numbers must have been around less than 100. I've been doing my best to get all the names and information of the Catalonian Volunteers and Leather Jacket Soldiers from the Santa Barbara Presidio researchers. Luckily this is close to where I live and if I find a name in YSearch or the project pages that matches up perfectly with the data and list of names I have - the party is on me. My hopes are very high.

Arch

B.A. Jarnagin
05-21-2015, 04:46 AM
I'm R-CTS4188. Doesn't seem to be much info available at all. FTDNA says it's R1b undifferentiated, what does that mean? Me, my father, and his father are white/caucasian, from Texas. We've heard that our last name, Jarnagin, comes from the Jarnac region of France. But we've also heard from others that it comes from England. Very curious to find out anything at all about what regions & cultures are associated with R-CTS4188.

ArmandoR1b
05-21-2015, 11:38 AM
I'm R-CTS4188. Doesn't seem to be much info available at all. FTDNA says it's R1b undifferentiated, what does that mean? Me, my father, and his father are white/caucasian, from Texas. We've heard that our last name, Jarnagin, comes from the Jarnac region of France. But we've also heard from others that it comes from England. Very curious to find out anything at all about what regions & cultures are associated with R-CTS4188.

Are you in the DF27 project at https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-df27/about/background and the SRY2627/L176.2 project at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=yresults

If not, I encourage you to join them.

In the SRY2627/L176.2 project there are people from France, Spain, Scotland, England, Ukraine, Portugal, and Brazil that are positive for CTS4188.

DNA direct to consumer testing in France is illegal so there will always be a low percentage of people from France even if it is an SNP that is common in that country.

YFull only has 1,000 Genomes kits that have a country associated with them. They are from Spain. Puerto Rico, and Mexico. http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS4188/

Where did you get the CTS4188 result at? In case it wasn't a BigY test YSEQ has S11121 and S11475 available as individual tests.

Gray Fox
05-21-2015, 09:46 PM
I'm R-CTS4188. Doesn't seem to be much info available at all. FTDNA says it's R1b undifferentiated, what does that mean? Me, my father, and his father are white/caucasian, from Texas. We've heard that our last name, Jarnagin, comes from the Jarnac region of France. But we've also heard from others that it comes from England. Very curious to find out anything at all about what regions & cultures are associated with R-CTS4188.

IF your y-line does ultimately hail from the Jarnac region, then this is inline with what we are seeing for SRY2627 in France, at least from a commercial testing standpoint. SRY2627 is most common from the northwest part of Catalonia (Val d'Aran) on up into the Poitou-Charentes region. Its numbers begin to decrease once you drift further north, west or south of this area.

Regarding culture, and bear in mind that this is only my speculative opinion, I'd say the general sub-group of SRY2627 was present amongst the Aquitanian and Gaulish tribes of antiquity. As far as being present in the Isles and places further north of its frequency zones, I'd say that a good deal of it hitched a ride with the Normans when they invaded England. I believe that's how my line ended up there and I've seen quite a few SRY2627 men reporting ancestry from England with French derived surnames. Of course thats not to say that SRY2627 didn't cross the channel in antiquity either.

I'd stick with the broader sub-group as far as trying to make any sort of connections to an ancient culture. SRY2627 isn't a very large sub-group and the sub-groups below it are even smaller and more widespread which means they will be that much harder to place.

ArmandoR1b
05-21-2015, 10:36 PM
IF your y-line does ultimately hail from the Jarnac region, then this is inline with what we are seeing for SRY2627 in France, at least from a commercial testing standpoint. SRY2627 is most common from the northwest part of Catalonia (Val d'Aran) on up into the Poitou-Charentes region. Its numbers begin to decrease once you drift further north, west or south of this area.

Regarding culture, and bear in mind that this is only my speculative opinion, I'd say the general sub-group of SRY2627 was present amongst the Aquitanian and Gaulish tribes of antiquity. As far as being present in the Isles and places further north of its frequency zones, I'd say that a good deal of it hitched a ride with the Normans when they invaded England. I believe that's how my line ended up there and I've seen quite a few SRY2627 men reporting ancestry from England with French derived surnames. Of course thats not to say that SRY2627 didn't cross the channel in antiquity either.

I'd stick with the broader sub-group as far as trying to make any sort of connections to an ancient culture. SRY2627 isn't a very large sub-group and the sub-groups below it are even smaller and more widespread which means they will be that much harder to place.

CTS4188 isn't below SRY2627. It's on a different branch of L176.2.

B.A. Jarnagin
05-21-2015, 10:37 PM
I got the CTS4188 result from Geno 2.0 and then transferred to FTDNA.
FTDNA haplotree shows DF27>Z195>L176>CTS4188.
I'm presumed positive for DF27, positive for Z195, but presumed negative for L176.
I don't understand--If CTS4188 stems from L176, why am I presumed negative for L176?
Also, what is L176.2?

ArmandoR1b
05-21-2015, 10:51 PM
I got the CTS4188 result from Geno 2.0 and then transferred to FTDNA.
FTDNA haplotree shows DF27>Z195>L176>CTS4188.
I'm presumed positive for DF27, positive for Z195, but presumed negative for L176.
I don't understand--If CTS4188 stems from L176, why am I presumed negative for L176?
Also, what is L176.2?

The mutation L176 is a deletion of AAAAC at the position 21779256..21779257. It happened in R1b DF27 people and in R1a CTS4179 people. Since it has happened in two different haplogroups it is given a .1 and .2 version. http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index.html The FTDNA tree has trouble determining if someone should be considered negative or positive. There is no question that you are positive for L176.2. YFull http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z198/ and Alex Williamson http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=187 use S228/Z198 instead of L176.2. Everyone that is positive for L176.2 is also positive for S228/Z198.

You should order the BigY test or order S11121 at http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=641

Have you had a Y-DNA STR test such as the Y-DNA37 or Y-DNA67 test?

B.A. Jarnagin
05-21-2015, 11:30 PM
So L176.1 is a R1a mutation, and L176.2 is R1b.

"The mutation L176 is a deletion of AAAAC at the position 21779256..21779257."
I don't even know what that means, haven't learned anything about positions yet.
Before a couple weeks ago, I knew absolutely nothing about any of this stuff.
But I'm trying my best to learn. Thanks for the responses.

I joined the 2 projects you mentioned, DF27 and SRY2627/L176.2

Geno 2.0 is all I've done so far. The other tests you mentioned, why should I order them?
Just trying to understand, thank you.

Gray Fox
05-21-2015, 11:39 PM
So L176.1 is a R1a mutation, and L176.2 is R1b.

"The mutation L176 is a deletion of AAAAC at the position 21779256..21779257."
I don't even know what that means, haven't learned anything about positions yet.
Before a couple weeks ago, I knew absolutely nothing about any of this stuff.
But I'm trying my best to learn. Thanks for the responses.

I joined the 2 projects you mentioned, DF27 and SRY2627/L176.2

Geno 2.0 is all I've done so far. The other tests you mentioned, why should I order them?
Just trying to understand, thank you.

The Big-Y test has the potential of discovering new snp's that may or may not be specific to you. If cost is no issue then I would opt for that. If cost is an issue then I would test the single snp at yseq. Extending your y-str markers will help place you in a broader range of potential clusters. It will also help you to match others who have tested out that far.

I would wait for the time being and let the admins place you in a specific category at the projects you just joined. They will help you look for str patterns and inform you of the best snp's to test for.

ArmandoR1b
05-22-2015, 01:04 PM
So L176.1 is a R1a mutation, and L176.2 is R1b. Yes, but it's in the exact same position within the Y-chromosome so it is actually the exact same mutation even though it happened in specific branches two completely different haplogroups.


"The mutation L176 is a deletion of AAAAC at the position 21779256..21779257."
I don't even know what that means, haven't learned anything about positions yet.
Before a couple weeks ago, I knew absolutely nothing about any of this stuff.
But I'm trying my best to learn. Thanks for the responses.
The position is the location within the Y-chromosome that the mutation happened. In this case the mutation was a deletion of AAAAC.



I joined the 2 projects you mentioned, DF27 and SRY2627/L176.2

Geno 2.0 is all I've done so far. The other tests you mentioned, why should I order them?
Just trying to understand, thank you.
The STR test is in order for you to determine if you closely match anyone else. The STR testing is more for recent ancestry but since there can be convergence with STRs there needs to be SNP testing in order to determine if the match is coincidence or not. The SNP testing by itself is normally for 4,000 years or more ago. For instance CTS4188 is estimated to be 4,700 years old. http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS4188/ So everyone that is CTS4188 has the same common ancestor from 4,700 years ago. A person that matches you closely at 67 or 111 STR markers and has also ordered a CTS4188 test and had a positive result is extremely likely to be related to you in the past 1,000 or even 500 years even if they have a different surname.

When cost is not an issue both a 111 STR test and a BigY test with a YFull analysis is recommended.

To see examples of STR matches and BigY testing see the John Cleary video at https://youtu.be/O81G3No1SOY and Mike W.'s post at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-YDNA/conversations/messages/2435

In order for you to be seen at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=yresults you would need an STR test.

Your kit shows up in the SNP list at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=ysnp

Earl Davis
11-22-2015, 08:59 PM
Nice to see SRY2627 got a 'new' brother on the Big Tree this week. It's at 15996508-A-G. An apology if this is already well known.

Earl.

GarethH
11-22-2015, 09:36 PM
Nice to see SRY2627 got a 'new' brother on the Big Tree this week. It's at 15996508-A-G. An apology if this is already well known.

Earl.

Thanks Earl, as far as I'm aware this is the first meaningful branch SNP to be found downstream of Z262 parallel to SRY2627. Unfortunately it's turned up a couple of months too late to get into the Z198 SNP pack, but maybe the pack will find some lines which are candidates for testing this SNP on a stand alone basis.

Gareth.

lg16
04-23-2017, 04:27 AM
:beerchug:

Webb
07-26-2017, 05:42 PM
I noticed today that Dr. McDonald's dating of the various L165 clades, if accurate, places the two largest branches of L165 as being separate from each other for over 3000 years. FGC29987 branched away at 2272 B.C. and BY129 branched off at 1160 B.C. FGC29987 includes the MacLeod's and BY129 includes MacNiel, Bowie/Buie, and MacDonald. It has been assumed by quite a few people that these clans were of Viking origin, but each of these groups include French and English surnames as well. I find the very old split very interesting.

Barraman
12-20-2019, 01:07 PM
Lately I have been wondering if L165 happened in the British isles. I don't know the age of it though. At first it was assumed to be Scandinavian in origin. I have poured over everything I can find on L165, and the instances of it outside the British isles, seem to me to be outliers. Just my wonderings. There is a definite sphere of DF27 in Northern Europe though.

I agree with your outliers comment, Webb.

I'm an L165 MacNeil but I see no reason to believe that L165 a Norse marker.

A couple of early testers had Scandinavian surnames (Olafsson, Rasmussen, Hammer) and Jim Wilson jumped to the wild conclusion that that made L165 a Norse marker based on a tiny sample size.

Take a look at the surnames on Alex Williamson's The Big Tree below. You'll see that there are as many English (Pridgeon, Clark, Ayton, Blinkhorn) and French surnames (Rouquier, Arcenault) as Scandinavian surnames.

For all we know, L165 is native Hebridean. Those with Scandinavian surnames could be decendents of Hebrideans that were taken to Norway and Sweden as slaves.

https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=597

Webb
12-20-2019, 02:37 PM
I agree with your outliers comment, Webb.

I'm an L165 MacNeil but I see no reason to believe that L165 a Norse marker.

A couple of early testers had Scandinavian surnames (Olafsson, Rasmussen, Hammer) and Jim Wilson jumped to the wild conclusion that that made L165 a Norse marker based on a tiny sample size.

Take a look at the surnames on Alex Williamson's The Big Tree below. You'll see that there are as many English (Pridgeon, Clark, Ayton, Blinkhorn) and French surnames (Rouquier, Arcenault) as Scandinavian surnames.

For all we know, L165 is native Hebridean. Those with Scandinavian surnames could be decendents of Hebrideans that were taken to Norway and Sweden as slaves.

https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=597

Thanks for the reply and welcome to the site. I am even more convinced now than when I first posted this that L165 is a marker that is not Scandinavian in origin. Again, I don't know where it first appeared, but I am sure it arrived in Scotland very early. I will link to a post I made in the DF27 Where Did it Originate thread where I did a quick break down of the L165 downstream clades using Alex's tree and dates. I did another quick analysis of the the two DF27 Douglas and Sutherland clusters in a post right after my post on L165. I really don't think it is a coincidence that we have these specific clan DF27 clades in Scotland.

This is the post about L165:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand&p=623221&viewfull=1#post623221

This is the post about the Douglas/Sutherland clades:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand&p=623505&viewfull=1#post623505