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Tomenable
08-05-2016, 08:41 PM
FTDNA R1a Project has the following Spanish guy:

kit 181201, Spain, he revealed his surname: Roco

He claims to descended from Bello of Carcassone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bello_of_Carcassonne

Bello of Carcassone founded the Bellonid dynasty:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellonids

This Roco guy - kit 181201 - belongs to YP1144 (one of subclades of Z280):

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP1144/

^ As I can see, YFull has also a Polish guy with this subclade (id: YF03327).

Tomenable
08-05-2016, 08:49 PM
Id: YF03327 is a basal R-YP1144* from Poland:

https://s32.postimg.org/cn4psgso5/Polish_YP1144.png

Here is kit 181201 in the Anousim DNA Project:

https://s32.postimg.org/8ga1495l1/Roco_1.png

And in R1a Project, he claims descent from Bello:

https://s31.postimg.org/pdcz117vf/Roco_2.png

Jean M
08-05-2016, 09:05 PM
Excellent research, Tomenable. Best argument yet for some intermixing between Balts and Goths.

Tomenable
08-05-2016, 09:16 PM
But is this Roco really descended from Bello of Carcassone? :)

I guess he found a member of the Bellonid dynasty in his genealogical tree.

Jean M
08-05-2016, 09:30 PM
But is this Roco really descended from Bello of Carcassone? :)

Hard to prove, I imagine. Plenty of room for slip-ups in that many generations, even if the paper trail looks solid. But this is still tantalising.

RCO
08-05-2016, 09:49 PM
A long lineage should have several cousins in different generations. Just test the probable cousins to confirm the conventional genealogy.

Tomenable
08-05-2016, 09:57 PM
Which branch is directly ancestral to YP1144 ??? Apparently Y2902:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2902/

It seems that our "Bello of Carcassone" is related to few Sardinians:

https://s32.postimg.org/fznponx9x/Bellonid_Sardinian.png

https://s32.postimg.org/fznponx9x/Bellonid_Sardinian.png

Tomenable
08-05-2016, 10:04 PM
Sardinians with R1a-Z283 from Francalacci 2013:

1) Six samples of R1a-M458, including:

- 5 samples of PF7521 subclade ("Rytel Clan" branch) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7521/
- 1 sample of L1029 subclade (Waldemar's branch :)) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/

2) Five samples of R1a-Z280, including:

- 3 samples of Y1396 subclade (see my post above) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y1396/
- 1 sample of CTS4648 subclade (looks rather Baltic) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS4648/
- 1 sample of YP372, a branch of YP371 (part of YP340) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP340/

Michał
08-05-2016, 10:56 PM
FTDNA R1a Project has the following Spanish guy:

kit 181201, Spain, he revealed his surname: Roco

He claims to descended from Bello of Carcassone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bello_of_Carcassonne

Bello of Carcassone founded the Bellonid dynasty:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellonids

This Roco guy - kit 181201 - belongs to YP1144 (one of subclades of Z280):
You should also add that YP1144 is a relatively large subclade under the so-called Volga-Carpathian clade Y2902, quite strongly associated with deep Early Slavic ancestry. YP1144 is a part of a "Western" subclade Y3226 that seems to be most common in the Carpathian region and in the West Balkans, while its equally large (or even larger) brother clade Y2910 is common among the Eastern Slavs (especially in Russia).

Importantly, kit 181201 belongs to a quite large downstream subclade PH3519, and more specifically to an STR-defined cluster PH3519-B3 that includes also three members of family Velikonja from Slovenia. It seems almost certain that they share a common ancestor in the post-Gothic times, although this needs to be verified by further testing.




^ As I can see, YFull has also a Polish guy with this subclade (id: YF03327).

Id: YF03327 is a basal R-YP1144* from Poland:
YF03327 is kit N48984 from FTDNA and his ancestral surname is Czetyrbok, so this lineage seems to be of Ukrainian (rather than Polish) ancestry. Also, he belongs to a very specific STR-defined cluster under YP1144 (ie. to a potential brother clade of PH3519) that includes people of Ukrainian, Slovak, German and possibly Lithuanian ancestry.



Best argument yet for some intermixing between Balts and Goths.
In this particular case, a potential Baltic origin seems to be rather doubtful. There are some Italian cases of L366, YP335 or even YP573* and YP4648 that are slightly more likely to correspond to such a hypothetical Baltic->Gothic->Italian connection.

Tomenable
08-05-2016, 11:00 PM
If the paper trial supports that Roco is descended from Bellonids, then how likely is an NPE involving PH3519-B3? An NPE taking place in Spain is dozens of times more likely to involve R1b than a rare R1a subclade.

That's why probably there was no NPE and this lineage is really descended from some of the Bellonids.

Unless he invented the whole story, and doesn't have any paper trial confirming his Bellonid ancestry.

Jean M
08-05-2016, 11:02 PM
In this particular case, a potential Baltic origin seems to be rather doubtful. There are some Italian cases of L366, YP335 or even YP573* that are slightly more likely to correspond to such a hypothetical Baltic->Gothic->Italian connection.

You are the expert, Michał. I will curb my enthusiasm for this one then.

Tomenable
08-05-2016, 11:09 PM
YF03327 is kit N48984 from FTDNA and his ancestral surname is Czetyrbok, so this lineage seems to be of Ukrainian (rather than Polish) ancestry.

According this website, the surname "Czetyrbok" exists only in Poland and Canada:

https://lastnames.myheritage.pl/last-name/czetyrbok

https://chart.googleapis.com/chart?chs=440x220&cht=t&chtm=world&chf=bg,s,EAF7FE&chco=FFFFFF,DCE6F2,376092&chld=CAPL&chd=t:100,33.333333333333

Anyway, Goths supposedly crossed Ukraine on their way towards the Roman Empire.

Tomenable
08-05-2016, 11:11 PM
Most Czetyrboks live in Poland, and most of them live in Warmia-Masuria:

http://www.locatemyname.com/poland/Czetyrbok

http://www.locatemyname.com/density-map/Czetyrbok.jpg

9 out of 20 live in Warmia-Masuria (though 5 live in Subcarpathia, hmm):


Top Local Regions:

Warmińsko-mazurskie = 9
Podkarpackie = 5
Lubelskie = 2
Mazowieckie = 1
Śląskie = 1
Wielkopolskie = 1
Zachodniopomorskie = 1

Perhaps they are not Ukrainians but rather native Warmiaks who stayed?

Tomenable
08-05-2016, 11:12 PM
Anyway, it seems that there are no people with this surname in Ukraine.

Tomenable
08-05-2016, 11:15 PM
"Czetyrbok" surname sounds strange.

I know a native Warmiak whose surname is Łogmin. Also strange and rare.

Łogmin family live in Olsztyn:

http://www.moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/%25C5%2582ogmin.html

And also in Rhein-Kreis Neuss:

http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/logmin.html

Michał
08-05-2016, 11:27 PM
Most Czetyrboks live in Poland, and most of them live in Warmia-Masuria:
[...]
9 out of 20 live in Warmia-Masuria (though 5 live in Subcarpathia, hmm):

Perhaps they are not Ukrainians but rather native Warmiaks who stayed?
Czetyrbok seems to be a Lemko (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemkos) surname, and, as you probably know, most Lemkos were forcefully resettled to Western and Northern Poland (including Warmia/Mazury) during the "Operation Vistula (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vistula)". Also, most Lemkos live in Poland and Slovakia rather than in Ukraine (maybe except the Transcarpathian Ukraine).

Tomenable
08-05-2016, 11:30 PM
Can Lemkos be considered "ethnic Ukrainians", though?

Their origins seem to be more complex and mysterious.

Some consider them to be descended from Vlach settlers:

http://carpatho-rusyn.org/archeol.htm

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolonizacja_wołoska

Vlach migrations (they came both to the vicinity of Slovenia and to Subcarpahia):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Vlachs-bgiu.jpg/800px-Vlachs-bgiu.jpg

Michał
08-05-2016, 11:42 PM
Can Lemkos be considered "ethnic Ukrainians", though?

Most of them consider themselves a subgroup of Ukrainians, and this is also supported by their language (a dialect of Ukrainian), although I agree that they likely had a quite significant Vlach admixture.

Tomenable
08-05-2016, 11:44 PM
Most of them consider themselves a subgroup of Ukrainians

And Czetyrboks in Canada consider themselves a subgroup of Canadians... ;)

I think that this is rather called national identity, not ethnicity.

On the other hand, their dialect is similar, so they can be considered ethnic Ukrainian.

But what I mean is that Czetyrbok Y-DNA is not necessarily East Slavic in origin.

Michał
08-05-2016, 11:51 PM
But what I mean is that Czetyrbok Y-DNA is not necessarily East Slavic in origin.
Please note that we have another Ukrainian in this cluster (#278171, ancestral surname Bajdaluk) and no ethnic Poles so far.

Tomenable
08-05-2016, 11:53 PM
We should find other people who claim descend from Bello of Carcassonne and test their Y-DNA.

Then we will know if a Non-Paternity Event happened in this case.

But as I wrote, it is unlikely that such NPE taking place in Spain would involve a rare type of R1a.

Waldemar
08-06-2016, 08:16 AM
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/TOULOUSE%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc374788746

Volat
08-06-2016, 12:21 PM
Most Czetyrboks live in Poland, and most of them live in Warmia-Masuria:



9 out of 20 live in Warmia-Masuria (though 5 live in Subcarpathia, hmm):



Perhaps they are not Ukrainians but rather native Warmiaks who stayed?



This surname is found in Belarus. In Minsk, Brest, Polotsk. It's more common than in Ukraine or Russia. Четырбок / Czetyrbok in search engine returns four times more results in .by domain than in .ua and ten times more than in Poland despite Belarus has smaller population. The surname can also be Ukrainian in origin. Does Czetyrbok means anything in Polish? Czetyrbok is the kind of traditional stove east Slavs had. http://www.ufolog.ru/names/order/%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%8B%D1%80%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%BA

Artmar
08-06-2016, 12:53 PM
I'm not suggesting that it wouldn't be fine to have a Bellonid dynasty as a part of my branch(Y2902) but I find it unlikely. At least for now.

#181201 represents Roco branch living in Philippines for a few generations, likely a higher class. This surname seems to be relatively frequent there but it's pretty obvious, going by Y-DNA result, that it can't come from a Philippine native.

However, Philippine Rocos haven't been able to trace it out of the Philippines by the paper trail. For long they weren't certain about their origins. Now they seem to be convinced to come from a Bellon.
On their website: http://rocofamily.info/ they state, that


The following pages show the result of years of painstaking efforts by an informal Historical Committee of the Roco Family based in Manila to try to trace the roots of the family. Although this began as a mere attempt to build a “family tree” by cousins belonging to families descended from the Mateo Eleno De Roco branch, the discovery in 1995 of a diary written in Spanish by Juan Emeterio De Dios De Roco written in the early 19th century spurred the committee to further its quest to seek out the original roots of the Roco Family.



Questions like – are we of Italian descent? Spanish? Do we really have only one ‘c’ in Roco or two ‘c’s? – went unresolved for a long time. But a database was finally established by Facundo “Ding” S. Roco using a Family Origins software in late 1995 after a month of deciphering and translating the very worn-out photocopies of Juan Emeterio De Dios’ diary. Ding then forwarded the database to his cousin, Carlos “Itos” Roco, in New York who promptly developed a website and put the Family History online.


Since then, many Rocos from around the world have contacted Itos and Ding though the internet. Most noteworthy of this was Jack Joseph De Roco and his wife, Maria, who contributed the history of one of the missing brothers. It turned out the eldest son of Tomas Manuel De Roco -- Jose Simon De Roco -- had migrated to California in the 19th century.


Tito Jack, as he is fondly called, turned out to be a fountain of information about the family, providing all kinds of leads and stories. He also initiated contact with Jude Grupe of the Westphalian Heraldry Society and they uncovered a whole new branch of the Roco Family in Chile and Peru. This branch, although originally Rocos, were now carrying the family names of Carvajal and Campofrio. Their family also had a website.


On the basis of more research, Jude Grupe was able to establish the link between the Rocos of the Philippines and the Rocos of Chile and Alcantara in Spain. A new armorial bearing based on the the Coat of Arms of Don Bernardo Roco, Conqueror of Alcantara, was then prepared and granted to both the Roco and De Roco families by the Westphalian Heraldry Society.

The question is - are members of Carvajal, Campofrio (Chile and Peru) and Roco (Alcantara, Spain) branches tested? If so, why they don't pop up as matches to #181201, on any level.
At the level of Y-67, Roco matches Velikanje family. On the level of Y-37, he matches Schlegels (Germany, Saxony?) and Salvador from Trento (Italy).

Also, why there is no complete tree for Roco branch of Philippines (going back to medieval Spain, I mean), although one of the bolded fragments says that link between various branches of Roco family was estabilished?

I just can't buy it, although this Y-DNA result is definitely interesting and requires some more insight.

Tomenable
08-06-2016, 04:18 PM
the Coat of Arms of Don Bernardo Roco, Conqueror of Alcantara

Bernardo Roco is mentioned here under year 1212:

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ARAGONESE%20NOBILITY.htm

Alcantara was re-conquered by Christians in 1213:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcántara

Brent.B
06-07-2018, 12:46 PM
In this particular case, a potential Baltic origin seems to be rather doubtful. There are some Italian cases of L366, YP335 or even YP573* and YP4648 that are slightly more likely to correspond to such a hypothetical Baltic->Gothic->Italian connection.

Old thread... but I am confused. I am not aware of any Italian YP4648?

JoeyP37
09-17-2018, 05:45 PM
What Tomenable should have said was it is unlikely to have been any NPE involving R1a in the past. As for today, I could get in a plane, make it to Spain, meet up with a cute girl on the outs with her boyfriend, get her pregnant, leave, and she go back to her boyfriend, and BAM! non-paternity event in Spain involving R1a. As of yet, though, we are no closer to solving the mystery of M458, the ugly duckling of Z283 subclades. Where did it come from? Where was it prior to the Slavic migrations, especially as its origin is over 4500 years ago. The Bellonid Z280 is much less a mystery; its past is much more clear.

Michał
09-17-2018, 06:02 PM
Old thread... but I am confused. I am not aware of any Italian YP4648?
Sorry, I meant CTS4648.