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View Full Version : The Insoluble Dilemma of Commercial Haplogroup Predictors used by FTDNA/Genographic



jatt2016
08-07-2016, 02:05 AM
Hi Folks,

I am writing this article/post in wake on my experience dealing with different genetic testing companies namely FTDNA and Geongraphic regarding ancestry testing in particular Y Haplogroup assignments.These companies use a DNA Microarray (also commonly known as DNA chip or Biochip) for SNP detection, some capable of testing as many as around 700,000 SNPs. for autosomal and 13,600 for Y-DNA. Based on the tested positive and negative SNP’s, a data set is generated which is most commonly called as “ RAW DATA” is available to download for the clients. Once the Raw data is generated, it has to go through a “Computation stage “ where an algorithm is used to predict your possible haplogroup. This stage is the most important one and this computation/algorithm would decide your predicted haplogroup. Please note that I am using the term “predicted” haplogroup because these algorithms are prone to make errors and get confused easily. I will give you an example at the later stage of this discussion.


How this algorithms works : These are basically computer programs that filter your positive/negative SNPS and assign you a haplogroup based on programming logic . It could be as simple as an excel spread sheet with functional programming ( If and then Loops/vlookups or index match). For instance if Cell value = P62 then assign Haplogroup H , if Cell value = M98 then assign Haplogroup T. The real programming can be complex but I am giving this example just to make people understand how these algorithms works.

What is wrong with these programs/algorithms?

These algorithms are prone to make incorrect predictions, the higher the number of SNPs the more unreliable the prediction becomes. To support my argument, I am pasting a screen shot of one such prediction tool. Please note that the predictor assigned me Haplogroup J based on the following tested positive SNPs by FTDNA (provided at the end of this post). When I investigated the issue, it came out that I did not have the basal SNPs – the top most SNP that are a pre-requisite for a person to be placed under the J Haplo. Genographic/FTDNA Haplogroup predictor and also Morley Predictor got confused and incorrectly assigned me J, F and R so on. The tools do not have the intelligence and lack the programing logic to read a pattern and instead incorrectly assign haplogroups based on the very last positive tested SNP. To clarify the point further, please look at the screen shot 1 pasted below

https://i.gyazo.com/be5468992da26bd8245c7d144adf7e3a.png

As you can see that the Predictor calculated me as J but I was negative for M410 and M174 (basal SNPS for J) and if you are negative for that you cannot be a J, but the predictor was not smart enough to see that. The quality control at Genographic/FTDNA were not smart either to pick this error until I brought this to their attention. They acknowledged the problem but were unable to resolve it and kept on assigning me different haplogroups from J to R to H to F and so on to the point that I no longer trust their prediction. Not that it’s their fault but this is a system limitation and more to do with weaknesses in the overall testing platform . The Chip based technology at this point in time is not so mature and many of the clients are assigned a wrong haplogroup by FTDNA/NATGEO without even knowing it.

The margin of error is more if you are non- European because most Y-DNA datasets/samples lack adequate information about people of non -European decent. Many of the non european haplogroups lack the SNP density required to correctly assign a correct subclaude. Some of the weaknesss, I have noticed are :



False positives, False Negatives and No Calls
Reverse Mutations - how would these be addressed?
Poorly programmed Haplogroup predictors.
Poor or Lack of indequate Quality control






Would love to hear from other forum members of what they think of this issue.

Thanks and regards,
Jatt2016



BY1142+, BY1357+, BY136_FGC19909_Z18229+, BY1551+, BY1585+, BY20+, BY2510+, BY65_Z18181+, BY763+, BY876+, CTS10031+, CTS10147+, CTS10188+, CTS10229+, CTS103+, CTS10300+, CTS10428+, CTS10433+, CTS10448+, CTS10552+, CTS10572+, CTS10615+, CTS10648+, CTS1066+, CTS10723+, CTS10745+, CTS10761+, CTS10821+, CTS10847+, CTS11012+, CTS11041+, CTS11071+, CTS11088+, CTS11126+, CTS11148+, CTS11190+, CTS11261+, CTS11354+, CTS114+, CTS1141+, CTS1148+, CTS11503+, CTS11530+, CTS1164+, CTS11651+, CTS11731+, CTS11759+, CTS11816+, CTS11907+, CTS11949+, CTS1216+, CTS12578+, CTS12856+, CTS12933+, CTS12934+, CTS12948+, CTS12950+, CTS1340+, CTS1353+, CTS1413+, CTS1758+, CTS1806+, CTS202+, CTS2067+, CTS210+, CTS2275+, CTS2284+, CTS2289+, CTS2670+, CTS2800+, CTS305+, CTS316+, CTS3202+, CTS3268+, CTS3366+, CTS3403+, CTS3466+, CTS347+, CTS3519+, CTS352+, CTS3543+, CTS3654+, CTS3700+, CTS3802+, CTS3868+, CTS4053+, CTS4086+, CTS4094+, CTS4137+, CTS4178+, CTS4209+, CTS4235+, CTS4326+, CTS4443+, CTS4463+, CTS4608+, CTS4643+, CTS4715+, CTS4853+, CTS5052+, CTS5152+, CTS5156+, CTS5304+, CTS5334+, CTS5359+, CTS5370+, CTS585+, CTS5860+, CTS5933+, CTS5939+, CTS597+, CTS5998+, CTS6062+, CTS6063+, CTS6117+, CTS6285+, CTS6352+, CTS636+, CTS6403+, CTS6438+, CTS6447+, CTS6449+, CTS6468+, CTS6481+, CTS6506+, CTS656+, CTS6704+, CTS6848+, CTS687+, CTS6918+, CTS6967+, CTS7022+, CTS7147+, CTS7186+, CTS7227+, CTS7266+, CTS7275+, CTS7299+, CTS730+, CTS7317+, CTS7335+, CTS7451+, CTS7611+, CTS7626+, CTS7767+, CTS7810+, CTS7929+, CTS8126+, CTS8203+, CTS8216+, CTS8300+, CTS8440+, CTS8506+, CTS8521+, CTS860+, CTS8645+, CTS8723+, CTS8815+, CTS9056+, CTS9154+, CTS9325+, CTS9387+, CTS9471+, CTS9518+, CTS9525+, CTS9539+, CTS9558+, CTS97+, CTS9894+, CTS9900+, CTS9925+, CTS9975+, DF109_FGC4101_S660_Y2845+, F1013+, F1024+, F1055+, F1127+, F1207+, F1291+, F1302+, F1329+, F1412+, F1442+, F1474+, F1540+, F1567+, F1703+, F1704+, F1712+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F1796+, F1848+, F1874+, F188+, F1899+, F1924+, F1946+, F1956+, F2018+, F2048+, F2142+, F2155+, F2165+, F2224+, F2236+, F2304+, F2370+, F2402+, F2516+, F2558+, F2587+, F2654+, F2688+, F2724+, F2742+, F2753+, F2767+, F2837+, F287+, F2873+, F2947+, F2961+, F2985+, F2990+, F3048+, F3056+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F3195_PF1806+, F3335+, F3368_PF3566+, F3402_PF3567+, F3422+, F3444+, F3491+, F3556+, F3582+, F3595+, F3625+, F3632+, F3692+, F3697+, F371+, F3735+, F3806+, F3869+, F3892+, F3907+, F3949+, F3956+, F3994+, F4003+, F4042+, F4111+, F4176+, F4188_PF3539+, F4244+, F4257+, F4282+, F4338+, F489+, F492+, F526+, F557+, F565+, F646+, F716+, F719+, F736+, F741+, F836+, F837+, F862+, F896+, F995+, FGC11678+, FGC11897_YP327+, FGC12120+, FGC12627_Y3429+, FGC13364_Y3138+, FGC16362_Z18162+, FGC16683_Y5619+, FGC1721_Y5322+, FGC20866_ZS2566+, FGC20874_ZS2572+, FGC28639_YP556+, FGC29572+, FGC3718_Y6369+, FGC6948_Y2703+, K257+, K386+, L1093+, L1186+, L132+, L253+, L294+, L325+, L387+, L440+, L442+, L484+, L492+, L498+, L503+, L556+, L782+, L817+, L840+, L99+, M116+, M129+, M139+, M171+, M238+, M251+, M262+, M275+, M288+, M367+, M39+, M69+, M89+, M94+, M9574+, M9588+, N4+, P102+, P108+, P117+, P118+, P135+, P136+, P141+, P145+, P148+, P151+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P268+, P269+, P289+, P305+, P52+, P59+, P84+, P91+, PAGES00048+, PAGES00049+, PAGES00081+, PAGES00101+, PAGES00105+, PF1015+, PF1026+, PF1031+, PF1085+, PF1097+, PF1141+, PF1147+, PF1152+, PF1164+, PF1169+, PF121+, PF1232+, PF1252+, PF1269+, PF1270+, PF1279+, PF1283+, PF133+, PF1368+, PF147+, PF1562+, PF1577+, PF1587+, PF22+, PF228+, PF2334+, PF2481+, PF2495+, PF2579+, PF2593+, PF2611+, PF2624+, PF2635+, PF2643+, PF2745+, PF276+, PF288+, PF293+, PF302+, PF3051+, PF3086+, PF3107+, PF3220+, PF328+, PF3298+, PF3320+, PF3823+, PF3890+, PF3964+, PF3986+, PF4105+, PF4246+, PF4533+, PF4573+, PF4576+, PF4589+, PF4592+, PF4647+, PF4720+, PF4957+, PF5014+, PF5122+, PF535+, PF5381+, PF5735+, PF5787+, PF5792+, PF601+, PF6063+, PF625+, PF6275+, PF6286+, PF6300+, PF6314+, PF6369+, PF644+, PF6673+, PF668+, PF671+, PF679+, PF6864+, PF698+, PF700+, PF7067+, PF7328+, PF7341+, PF7374+, PF7527+, PF7557+, PF794+, PF806+, PF829+, PF888+, PF907+, PF93+, PF946+, PF966+, PF968+, PF971+, PF997+, PK1+, PR805+, rs12116413+, rs16980396+, rs16980499+, rs17842387+, rs2032652+, rs2075640+, rs35249440+, rs35407486+, rs7067237+, rs7892924+, rs7893044+, rs9306845+, rs9306848+, rs9785670+, rs9785743+, rs9785853+, rs9785905+, rs9786082+, rs9786181+, rs9786247+, rs9786290+, rs9786325+, rs9786774+, S7123+, SK1247_Y4915+, SK1410_Y5528_Z20169+, V174+, V186+, V187+, V205+, V21+, V216+, V221+, V227+, V250+, V29+, V59+, V79+, V90+, V94+, Y1038+, Y1049+, Y1083+, Y1113+, Y1122+, Y32+, Y4864_Z16422+, Y5272+, Y5305_Z16500+, Y5759_Z16420+, Y6181+, Y763+, YP321+, YSC0000081+, YSC0000150+, YSC0000216+, YSC0000292+, YSC0001071+, Z11180+, Z1149+, Z14303+, Z1456+, Z1476+, Z1483+, Z1504+, Z1518+, Z1589+, Z1593+, Z1616+, Z17153+, Z18140+, Z1835+, Z1975+, Z315+, Z3723+, Z39+, Z477+, Z625+, Z767+, Z966+, ZS1727+

rock hunter
08-07-2016, 03:49 AM
There has been more than one forensic DNA crime lab scandal where
errors were made and then hidden with the knowledge that lives could
possibly be ruined or even extinguished. I assume these were held to
a much higher legal and quality control standard then a genealogy
oriented DNA testing lab with no outside oversight and which targets
people looking to see if they are related to Jessie James.

jatt2016
08-07-2016, 03:59 AM
There has been more than one forensic DNA crime lab scandal where
errors were made and then hidden with the knowledge that lives could
possibly be ruined or even extinguished. I assume these were held to
a much higher legal and quality control standard then a genealogy
oriented DNA testing lab with no outside oversight and which targets
people looking to see if they are related to Jessie James.

The irony is that many laymans like me think that the science of assigning a haplogroups is as concrete as testing your blood group and this is how these vendors also portray and say that " YOUR ASSIGNED HAPLOGROUP is this n that " and brag about: " that we test around 700,000 SNPS across your entire genome", whereas the fact of the matter is that there is a huge amount of uncertainty involved which these vendors do not communicate to their clients because they will lose business. Testing 700,000 SNPS with a genochip is no big deal but do you have the tool and the quality control to interpret the results for the 700,000 SNPS correctly? I will share more on my experience and hoping that it would serve as an eye opener for us all. You would be surprised to hear some of the very unprofessional responses and rather bizarre experiences that I had with them.

More to come as this thread proceeds !:)

ArmandoR1b
08-07-2016, 11:46 AM
Jatt,

There are several very important things that need to be clarified in this thread.

1. Your thread should have been in the Geno 2.0 sub-forum (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?137-Geno-2-0) because the chip was designed and paid for by Genographic. The DNA testing is done in the FTDNA lab but it is not a chip owned by FTDNA, nor did they specify which autosomal, Y-DNA, or mtDNA SNPs should be tested, nor is there an equivalent test by FTDNA.

2. You should specify that it is the Geno 2.0 Next Generation test. The first Geno 2.0 was with a different chip.

3. The 700,000 SNPs are for the autosomal portion of the test but your post is mostly about the Y-DNA portion of the test. There are only about 13,600 Y-DNA SNPs tested by Genographic.

4. You can't use IF THEN loops with Excel for naming a haplogroup with Geno 2.0 results just because of the huge number of SNPs. You have to use INDEX MATCH or VLOOKUP.

5. The Morley SNP predictor was made for the first version of the Genographic test and not for Genographic 2.0 NextGen.

6. FTDNA is not at fault that Genographic has a chip that provides false positives, false negatives, or a read on a reverse strand. They use what is sent to them by the Genographic team.

7. Even though you never mentioned this, though it could have been inferred by readers, but FTDNA BigY doesn't have the problem that you experienced with Genographic NextGen especially when a haplogroup admin or a professional company analyzes the results for about $49.

8. BigY results are being used to create SNP packs at FTDNA which are very useful, relatively inexpensive, and don't have false negatives or false positives and don't put people into an incorrect haplogroup.

jatt2016
08-07-2016, 01:15 PM
Jatt,

There are several very important things that need to be clarified in this thread.

1. Your thread should have been in the Geno 2.0 sub-forum (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?137-Geno-2-0) because the chip was designed and paid for by Genographic. The DNA testing is done in the FTDNA lab but it is not a chip owned by FTDNA, nor did they specify which autosomal, Y-DNA, or mtDNA SNPs should be tested, nor is there an equivalent test by FTDNA.

Please note that National Geographic is not a DNA testing company but a global nonprofit organization committed to scientific exploration and educational projects. They started the Genographic project as a joint collaboration with FTDNA. FTDNA owns the Labs and their staff does all the work from DNA analysis to compilation of raw data and so on. Genographic probably just uploads the results/raw data they get from the FTDNA Lab. It is like you arrange/book a hall for a party but the food is provided by catering service ( FTDNA). If there is something wrong with the food , the catering service is likely to get more blame from a legal perspective. The onus is on both of them to sort out that who is responsible for the discrepancies in results caused by lab error or wrong haplogroups calling. I could have put the thread under Genographic too, I am really not so sure about who is more to be accountable here as I do not know their business model or joint venture agreement.
Readers are free to have their opinions and share.


2. You should specify that it is the Geno 2.0 Next Generation test. The first Geno 2.0 was with a different chip.

The purpose of the thread is to highlight the short comings and limitations of chip based technology and the chip versions does not matter.

3. The 700,000 SNPs are for the autosomal portion of the test but your post is mostly about the Y-DNA portion of the test. There are only about 13,600 Y-DNA SNPs tested by Genographic.

Corrected to 13,600 SNPS for YDNA.

4. You can't use IF THEN loops with Excel for naming a haplogroup with Geno 2.0 results just because of the huge number of SNPs. You have to use INDEX MATCH or VLOOKUP.

I did mention that the actual logic could be more complex than a simple if and then command, vLOOKUP and index matches are more probable but the purpose of my referring to ifs and thens was just to give readers an example of how the logic works in the simplest context.

5. The Morley SNP predictor was made for the first version of the Genographic test and not for Genographic 2.0 NextGen.

Irrespective of that, the FTDNA/Genograpgic Predictors both made the same mistake as the Morley Predictor. Had I have access to the commercial predictors they use , I would have pasted their screen shots as example but I guess they are not open to the public. But please note that FTDNA/Geongraphic Joint ventured gave me the same results J and then R based on their alogrithyms. My finding was supplemented by the Y -Haplogroup result tree FTDNA maintains on their website in collaboration with Genographic and it showed that I was positive for some isolated R Haplo SNPs and J Haplo SNP. Their Haplogroup predictors got confused and made the same errors as the Morley Predictor. I brought this to the attention of both the vendors and they acknowledged the problem.

6. FTDNA is not at fault that Genographic has a chip that provides false positives, false negatives, or a read on a reverse strand. They use what is sent to them by the Genographic team.

Do you have the complete process of how it works between the two organizations? Chip is owned by Genographic but who does the lab test? and raw data compilation and how would a client know that what has gone wrong at what stage and the accountability ?

Chip error = Geongrapic responsible
Lab error = FTDNA responsible
Incorrect Raw Data = who would be responsible?
Incorrect Haplogroup assignment = is this a shared responsibility or just one party responsible?

This needs to be clearly formulated by both parties in their own as well as client's interest.

7. Even though you never mentioned this, though it could have been inferred by readers, but FTDNA BigY doesn't have the problem that you experienced with Genographic NextGen especially when a haplogroup admin or a professional company analyzes the results for about $49.

I had a shocker experience of dealing with one of the FTDNA group administrator. You would be stunned if I share my experience of dealing with a religiously motivated fanatic who happened to be a volunteer working with FTDNA. He got very upset that I am wrongfully placed in J haplogroup. Trolled me for sometime and got my real name and address because I clicked on a link he provided me as administrator. Accused me of religious blasphemy and being falsely related to the Muslim Prophet. As per him only the lineage of the Prophet can claim that subclaude that I was placed in and that I being an ethnic Punjabi cannot have that group. He made some historical contexts to a bloody war that happened somewhere in Iraq back in 600 AD which neither myself or my ancestors had any part in. I reported him to FTDNA and the local police. I am luckly that I live in Canada and not in Iran, Pakistan or Afghanistan , this guy sent me harassing emails and had I been in the countries mentioned above , I would have been in real trouble. Religious blasphemy accusation is a death sentence there !

FTDNA should do some reference checks/screening before they allow general public to become volunteer administrators for groups.

8. BigY results are being used to create SNP packs at FTDNA which are very useful, relatively inexpensive, and don't have false negatives or false positives and don't put people into an incorrect haplogroup.

Good suggestion but due to my bad experience, I am a little reluctant to choose them anytime in the near future. I went with 23andme and they placed me in Haplgroup F. At least their raw data is consistent with the haplogroup they have assigned me. I am in process of examining the raw data. The excel converter spreadsheet you provided is very useful. thanks for that !

Emir
08-07-2016, 01:44 PM
Jatt,

There are several very important things that need to be clarified in this thread.

1. Your thread should have been in the Geno 2.0 sub-forum (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?137-Geno-2-0) because the chip was designed and paid for by Genographic. The DNA testing is done in the FTDNA lab but it is not a chip owned by FTDNA, nor did they specify which autosomal, Y-DNA, or mtDNA SNPs should be tested, nor is there an equivalent test by FTDNA.

2. You should specify that it is the Geno 2.0 Next Generation test. The first Geno 2.0 was with a different chip.

3. The 700,000 SNPs are for the autosomal portion of the test but your post is mostly about the Y-DNA portion of the test. There are only about 13,600 Y-DNA SNPs tested by Genographic.

4. You can't use IF THEN loops with Excel for naming a haplogroup with Geno 2.0 results just because of the huge number of SNPs. You have to use INDEX MATCH or VLOOKUP.

5. The Morley SNP predictor was made for the first version of the Genographic test and not for Genographic 2.0 NextGen.

6. FTDNA is not at fault that Genographic has a chip that provides false positives, false negatives, or a read on a reverse strand. They use what is sent to them by the Genographic team.

7. Even though you never mentioned this, though it could have been inferred by readers, but FTDNA BigY doesn't have the problem that you experienced with Genographic NextGen especially when a haplogroup admin or a professional company analyzes the results for about $49.

8. BigY results are being used to create SNP packs at FTDNA which are very useful, relatively inexpensive, and don't have false negatives or false positives and don't put people into an incorrect haplogroup.

Good point! When you are a novice rely on what more experienced members can convey. These companies use an algorithm because they test large numbers of samples. A human can take one look and give a better terminal SNP assignment. In this case, H-M69.

ArmandoR1b
08-07-2016, 02:11 PM
Good suggestion but due to my bad experience, I am a little reluctant to choose them anytime in the near future. I went with 23andme and they placed me in Haplgroup F. At least their raw data is consistent with the haplogroup they have assigned me. I am in process of examining the raw data. The excel converter spreadsheet you provided is very useful. thanks for that !

Your reluctance is unfounded which was the point of my post. Even 23andme put you in the wrong haplogroup.

ArmandoR1b
08-07-2016, 02:13 PM
Please note that National Geographic is not a DNA testing company but a global nonprofit organization committed to scientific exploration and educational projects. They started the Genographic project as a joint collaboration with FTDNA. FTDNA owns the Labs and their staff does all the work from DNA analysis to compilation of raw data and so on. Genographic probably just uploads the results/raw data they get from the FTDNA Lab. It is like you arrange/book a hall for a party but the food is provided by catering service ( FTDNA). If there is something wrong with the food , the catering service is likely to get more blame from a legal perspective. The onus is on both of them to sort out that who is responsible for the discrepancies in results caused by lab error or wrong haplogroups calling. I could have put the thread under Genographic too, I am really not so sure about who is more to be accountable here as I do not know their business model or joint venture agreement.
Readers are free to have their opinions and share.

No need to cross-post. I have properly pointed out who owns the chip that is causing the erroneous results. FTDNA does not own any chips that causes that.

ArmandoR1b
08-07-2016, 02:15 PM
The purpose of the thread is to highlight the short comings and limitations of chip based technology and the chip versions does not matter.

It matters a lot. None of the other chip based technology has as many errors as the Geno 2.0 NextGen.

ArmandoR1b
08-07-2016, 02:16 PM
I did mention that the actual logic could be more complex than a simple if and then command, vLOOKUP and index matches are more probable but the purpose of my referring to ifs and thens was just to give readers an example of how the logic works in the simplest context.
The IF function exists in Excel but can't be used for Geno 2.0 NextGen.

jatt2016
08-07-2016, 02:20 PM
Your reluctance is unfounded which was the point of my post. Even 23andme put you in the wrong haplogroup.

If you send your blood sample to three different labs then you would get the same results for your blood type irrespective of who owns the lab but in this case, where the vendors (FTDNA/Geongraphic) test your DNA and claim to provide your correct haplogroup - they fall short of accuracy and quality control and this was the entire purpose of this thread. My DNA results are a living proof of it. Every time FTDNA/Genographic assignmed me a new haplogroup, I was manually able to find a discrepancy and brought to their attention and as I said " they acknowledged the error " and assigned me new one ...and even in the new one I picked another discrepancy ( basically lacking the basal SNPs). How could this be unfounded or coincidental? FTDNA/Genographic making the same mistake multiple times? I have emails from both the vendors acknowledging the discrepancy!

I am in process of reviewing my Y DNA assigned from 23andme and already in correspondence with them. They are looking in to my case and as soon as I get an update, I will share .

ArmandoR1b
08-07-2016, 02:27 PM
Do you have the complete process of how it works between the two organizations? Chip is owned by Genographic but who does the lab test? and raw data compilation and how would a client know that what has gone wrong at what stage and the accountability ?

Chip error = Geongrapic responsible
Lab error = FTDNA responsible
Incorrect Raw Data = who would be responsible?
Incorrect Haplogroup assignment = is this a shared responsibility or just one party responsible?

This needs to be clearly formulated by both parties in their own as well as client's interest.

There was no lab error so no there isn't any blame to place.

Incorrect Raw Data = the team assigned to review if the chip is reading the reverse strand. The responsibility for that is Geno.

Incorrect Haplogroup assignment = Geno because they didn't inform FTDNA to not use the positions that read the reverse strand.

jatt2016
08-07-2016, 02:31 PM
There was no lab error so no there isn't any blame to place.

Incorrect Raw Data = the team assigned to review if the chip is reading the reverse strand. The responsibility for that is Geno.

Incorrect Haplogroup assignment = Geno because they didn't inform FTDNA to not use the positions that read the reverse strand.

As a customer and from a client dissatisfaction perspective I blame both. Poor customer service and lack of responsibility!

ArmandoR1b
08-07-2016, 02:31 PM
If you send your blood sample to three different labs then you would get the same results for your blood type irrespective of who owns the lab but in this case, where the vendors (FTDNA/Geongraphic) test your DNA and claim to provide your correct haplogroup - they fall short of accuracy and quality control and this was entire purpose of this thread. My DNA results are a living proof of it. Every time FTDNA/Genographic assignmed me a new haplogroup, I was manually able to find a discrepancy and brought to their attention and as I said " they acknowledged the error " and assigned me new one ...and even in the new one I picked another discrepancy ( basically lacking the basal SNPs). How could this me unfounded or coincidental? FTDNA/Genographic making the same mistake multiple times? I have emails from both the vendors acknowledging the discrepancy!

I am in process of reviewing my Y DNA assigned from 23andme and already in correspondence with them. They are looking in to my case and as soon as I get an update, I will share .

And the responsibility falls squarely on the shoulders of Genographic. FTDNA even advised them that they didn't need to try a newer test

See where is says "Why Geno 2.0 Next Gen? Bennett says he told them that but they did not accept his advice." at http://www.ancestorcentral.com/11th-international-conference-on-genetic-genealogy/

Bennett Greenspan is the owner of FTDNA.

jatt2016
08-07-2016, 02:33 PM
And the responsibility falls squarely on the shoulders of Genographic. FTDNA even advised them that they didn't need to try a newer test

See where is says "Why Geno 2.0 Next Gen? Bennett says he told them that but they did not accept his advice." at http://www.ancestorcentral.com/11th-international-conference-on-genetic-genealogy/

Bennett Greenspan is the owner of FTDNA.

Why does not FTDNA then dissociate themselves with Geographic project?

ArmandoR1b
08-07-2016, 02:33 PM
As a customer and from a client dissatisfaction perspective I blame both.

I know. That is why I have been posting.

ArmandoR1b
08-07-2016, 02:36 PM
Why does not FTDNA then dissociate themselves with Geographic project?

They don't have to disassociate to not carry the blame. They don't sell the test, they don't own the chip, and they don't have testing that has those kind of errors.

jatt2016
08-07-2016, 02:40 PM
I know. That is why I have been posting.

Are you posting on behalf of FTDNA or as an independent poster? Pardon my asking but are you associated with FTDNA as a volunteer or an employee. You have the right not to answer this question if you are not comfortable with it.


They don't have to disassociate to not carry the blame. They don't sell the test, they don't own the chip, and they don't have testing that has those kind of errors.

Why not? they have an agreement with Geographic to transfer the results to their site and host the RAW data file and I am sure the agreement involves money to paid by Genographic to FTDNA for the services provided. I am speaking from a client perspective and really curious that why would FTDNA still want to be associated with this project if they know that the GENO chip has errors?

ArmandoR1b
08-07-2016, 03:23 PM
Are you posting on behalf of FTDNA or as an independent poster? Pardon my asking but are you associated with FTDNA as a volunteer or an employee. You have the right not to answer this question if you are not comfortable with it.



Why not? they have an agreement with Geographic to transfer the results to their site and host the RAW data file and I am sure the agreement involves money to paid by Genographic to FTDNA for the services provided. I am speaking from a client perspective and really curious that why would FTDNA still want to be associated with this project if they know that the GENO chip has errors?

Not at all posting on behalf of FTDNA. I favor 23andme for the ethnicity calculator and have posted that FGC is a viable alternative to FTDNA BigY. I have also advised people to test with YFull when that is an option. All of those companies are competitors to FTDNA. I always try to be as objective as possible which is why I am placing blame where it belongs which is with Genographic.

Amerijoe
08-07-2016, 03:39 PM
I my opinion and with on going personal interaction, testing at The Genographic Project 2.0+ is no better than spinning a roulette wheel.

Geno refuses to acknowledge any errors in it's results and FTDNA keep saying it's not our fault and the customer is left holding the bag. I blame both companies, Geno, for it's broke down chip and FTDNA for knowingly producing erratic results from said chip.

To separate itself from this debacle, one must first openingly admit the problem exists. FTDNA should sub-contact the work out, thereby separating it's association with Geno and avoid further tainting from this matter.

ArmandoR1b
08-07-2016, 04:19 PM
I my opinion and with on going personal interaction, testing at The Genographic Project 2.0+ is no better than spinning a roulette wheel.

Geno refuses to acknowledge any errors in it's results and FTDNA keep saying it's not our fault and the customer is left holding the bag. I blame both companies, Geno, for it's broke down chip and FTDNA for knowingly producing erratic results from said chip.

To separate itself from this debacle, one must first openingly admit the problem exists. FTDNA should sub-contact the work out, thereby separating it's association with Geno and avoid further tainting from this matter.

The source of the erratic results that FTDNA has is the Genographic chip.

Amerijoe
08-07-2016, 06:41 PM
The source of the erratic results that FTDNA has is the Genographic chip.

Being repetitious with the obvious, does not extinguish the cupability of FTDNA in this matter. The contractor of record has a fiduciary duty to perform to the best of it's ability as so outlined. One of the parameters normally covered is quality control. It is the responsibility of the contractor to inform " ALL PARTIES" so affected, if any of the paraments fall outside the established norm.

Money supersedes results.


If we were talking about a tangible product, the buzzards would be circling and the, 'Shotgun Effect' would be in action.:hat:

Afshar
08-07-2016, 06:42 PM
This is a paper that has studied microarray chips http://www.pnas.org/content/99/20/12975.full .
The point is that its mainly used for economical reasons otherwise it wouldnt be able to provide these tests to the public at an affordable price. Its impossible to provide these test at an equal price with either sanger sequencing or next gen sequencing (with the same accuracy).

ArmandoR1b
08-07-2016, 09:12 PM
Being repetitious with the obvious, does not extinguish the cupability of FTDNA in this matter. The contractor of record has a fiduciary duty to perform to the best of it's ability as so outlined. One of the parameters normally covered is quality control. It is the responsibility of the contractor to inform " ALL PARTIES" so affected, if any of the paraments fall outside the established norm.

Money supersedes results.


If we were talking about a tangible product, the buzzards would be circling and the, 'Shotgun Effect' would be in action.:hat:

FTDNA doesn't charge anything at all for the haplogroup and subclade placement based on the Geno 2.0 NextGen test or the transfer from Geno 2.0 to FTDNA. The products that FTDNA sells don't have the errors that Geno 2.0 does. You are pointing the finger in the wrong direction.

Amerijoe
08-07-2016, 10:58 PM
FTDNA doesn't charge anything at all for the haplogroup and subclade placement based on the Geno 2.0 NextGen test or the transfer from Geno 2.0 to FTDNA. The products that FTDNA sells don't have the errors that Geno 2.0 does. You are pointing the finger in the wrong direction.

After repeated contacts with both parties concerned, I'm pointing at both. All these testing companies when designing their chips work within current technology and cost per unit. They choose their populations groups, outliers are tossed and low and behold you have the 'Compromise Chip' with all it's shortcomings.

These companies need to match their PR to their marketing efforts.

Like any new industry growing pains are to be expected. We are the test pilots and bumps in the road are to be expected. As more competition appears, innovation as well as accuracy and cost saving should follow.

wombatofthenorth
08-08-2016, 01:28 AM
Jatt,

There are several very important things that need to be clarified in this thread.

1. Your thread should have been in the Geno 2.0 sub-forum (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?137-Geno-2-0) because the chip was designed and paid for by Genographic. The DNA testing is done in the FTDNA lab but it is not a chip owned by FTDNA, nor did they specify which autosomal, Y-DNA, or mtDNA SNPs should be tested, nor is there an equivalent test by FTDNA.

2. You should specify that it is the Geno 2.0 Next Generation test. The first Geno 2.0 was with a different chip.

3. The 700,000 SNPs are for the autosomal portion of the test but your post is mostly about the Y-DNA portion of the test. There are only about 13,600 Y-DNA SNPs tested by Genographic.

4. You can't use IF THEN loops with Excel for naming a haplogroup with Geno 2.0 results just because of the huge number of SNPs. You have to use INDEX MATCH or VLOOKUP.

5. The Morley SNP predictor was made for the first version of the Genographic test and not for Genographic 2.0 NextGen.

6. FTDNA is not at fault that Genographic has a chip that provides false positives, false negatives, or a read on a reverse strand. They use what is sent to them by the Genographic team.

7. Even though you never mentioned this, though it could have been inferred by readers, but FTDNA BigY doesn't have the problem that you experienced with Genographic NextGen especially when a haplogroup admin or a professional company analyzes the results for about $49.

8. BigY results are being used to create SNP packs at FTDNA which are very useful, relatively inexpensive, and don't have false negatives or false positives and don't put people into an incorrect haplogroup.

You also fail to mention that BigY costs hundreds of dollars more and tests only a single thing and uses next gen testing. Why do you keep comparing it to all-purpose chips?

You seem to think Geno can not do a single thing correct ever and that FTDNA has zero problems of their own ever (then how come they had so many bugs in FamilyFinder they took months to get any matches to appear at all? granted they did take me of me well in the end).

Yes, some annoying things with Geno 2.0 NG test such as poor sampling for V mtDNA and not really all that much results for most compared to the old test and they did over sell the upgrade potential for haplogroups. And yeah for some they have even made errors (although even more often the haplo errors were on FTDNA transfer but not also on original site, although that has happened too).

But the way you hate on them 100% seems a bit over the top. Did they kick your dog?

jatt2016
08-08-2016, 01:57 AM
.


.




Hi Folks,

Amidst all the discussion building up, I will take this opportunity to pay my tribute and special thanks to Mr. Armando who had been very helpful in educating me about how to read SNPS, ISOGG charts , conversion tables and other valuable resources. When I came to this forum , I had zero knowledge about how Haplgroups are assigned and what A , C, T and G are and the ancestral and derived states. Any time I had a question, I would send him a private message and he would courteously reply and provide me with guidance material and valuable advice. A store house of knowledge and very committed individual - always ready to help others with their questions.

Thank you Mr. Armando for all your time and assistance. I only wish that the DNA testing companies had committed and sincere people like you able to assist their clients and sort out their tickets. :)

ArmandoR1b
08-08-2016, 12:09 PM
You also fail to mention that BigY costs hundreds of dollars more and tests only a single thing and uses next gen testing.
It's still a better and more reliable test so the increased price is worth it. The OP still isn't 100% sure of his placement within haplogroup H even with the 23andme test.


Why do you keep comparing it to all-purpose chips?
Because BigY is a better and more reliable Y-DNA SNP test and it allows for discovery of new SNPs.


You seem to think Geno can not do a single thing correct ever
I don't see Geno 2.0 as a test that is better than any other tests, even 23andme, and it has unreliable Y-DNA SNP testing for a lot of people such as the OP, Amerijoe, and a lot of people in the Geno subforum.


and that FTDNA has zero problems of their own ever (then how come they had so many bugs in FamilyFinder they took months to get any matches to appear at all? granted they did take me of me well in the end).
The main complaint in this thread is about Geno 2.0 Y-DNA SNP testing and results. The Y-DNA SNP testing at FTDNA does not have the problems that Geno 2.0 does. If I remember correctly your FF test was from a Geno transfer and that is what caused a problem.


Yes, some annoying things with Geno 2.0 NG test such as poor sampling for V mtDNA and not really all that much results for most compared to the old test and they did over sell the upgrade potential for haplogroups. And yeah for some they have even made errors (although even more often the haplo errors were on FTDNA transfer but not also on original site, although that has happened too).
The bolded portion doesn't happen at FTDNA, 23andme, FGC, or YSEQ. V mtDNA testing with FTDNA FMS won't have a problem either.


But the way you hate on them 100% seems a bit over the top. Did they kick your dog?
I am merely pointing out factual problems with a test that doesn't measure up to it's stated ability. If you read the first post you'll see that I didn't start the thread and there is even another person that is unhappy with the Geno 2.0 problem. It's obvious that Geno 2.0 bit off more than it can chew.

JamesKane
08-08-2016, 02:08 PM
BY1142+, BY1357+, BY136_FGC19909_Z18229+, BY1551+, BY1585+, BY20+, BY2510+, BY65_Z18181+, BY763+, BY876+, CTS10031+, CTS10147+, CTS10188+, CTS10229+, CTS103+, CTS10300+, CTS10428+, CTS10433+, CTS10448+, CTS10552+, CTS10572+, CTS10615+, CTS10648+, CTS1066+, CTS10723+, CTS10745+, CTS10761+, CTS10821+, CTS10847+, CTS11012+, CTS11041+, CTS11071+, CTS11088+, CTS11126+, CTS11148+, CTS11190+, CTS11261+, CTS11354+, CTS114+, CTS1141+, CTS1148+, CTS11503+, CTS11530+, CTS1164+, CTS11651+, CTS11731+, CTS11759+, CTS11816+, CTS11907+, CTS11949+, CTS1216+, CTS12578+, CTS12856+, CTS12933+, CTS12934+, CTS12948+, CTS12950+, CTS1340+, CTS1353+, CTS1413+, CTS1758+, CTS1806+, CTS202+, CTS2067+, CTS210+, CTS2275+, CTS2284+, CTS2289+, CTS2670+, CTS2800+, CTS305+, CTS316+, CTS3202+, CTS3268+, CTS3366+, CTS3403+, CTS3466+, CTS347+, CTS3519+, CTS352+, CTS3543+, CTS3654+, CTS3700+, CTS3802+, CTS3868+, CTS4053+, CTS4086+, CTS4094+, CTS4137+, CTS4178+, CTS4209+, CTS4235+, CTS4326+, CTS4443+, CTS4463+, CTS4608+, CTS4643+, CTS4715+, CTS4853+, CTS5052+, CTS5152+, CTS5156+, CTS5304+, CTS5334+, CTS5359+, CTS5370+, CTS585+, CTS5860+, CTS5933+, CTS5939+, CTS597+, CTS5998+, CTS6062+, CTS6063+, CTS6117+, CTS6285+, CTS6352+, CTS636+, CTS6403+, CTS6438+, CTS6447+, CTS6449+, CTS6468+, CTS6481+, CTS6506+, CTS656+, CTS6704+, CTS6848+, CTS687+, CTS6918+, CTS6967+, CTS7022+, CTS7147+, CTS7186+, CTS7227+, CTS7266+, CTS7275+, CTS7299+, CTS730+, CTS7317+, CTS7335+, CTS7451+, CTS7611+, CTS7626+, CTS7767+, CTS7810+, CTS7929+, CTS8126+, CTS8203+, CTS8216+, CTS8300+, CTS8440+, CTS8506+, CTS8521+, CTS860+, CTS8645+, CTS8723+, CTS8815+, CTS9056+, CTS9154+, CTS9325+, CTS9387+, CTS9471+, CTS9518+, CTS9525+, CTS9539+, CTS9558+, CTS97+, CTS9894+, CTS9900+, CTS9925+, CTS9975+, DF109_FGC4101_S660_Y2845+, F1013+, F1024+, F1055+, F1127+, F1207+, F1291+, F1302+, F1329+, F1412+, F1442+, F1474+, F1540+, F1567+, F1703+, F1704+, F1712+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F1796+, F1848+, F1874+, F188+, F1899+, F1924+, F1946+, F1956+, F2018+, F2048+, F2142+, F2155+, F2165+, F2224+, F2236+, F2304+, F2370+, F2402+, F2516+, F2558+, F2587+, F2654+, F2688+, F2724+, F2742+, F2753+, F2767+, F2837+, F287+, F2873+, F2947+, F2961+, F2985+, F2990+, F3048+, F3056+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F3195_PF1806+, F3335+, F3368_PF3566+, F3402_PF3567+, F3422+, F3444+, F3491+, F3556+, F3582+, F3595+, F3625+, F3632+, F3692+, F3697+, F371+, F3735+, F3806+, F3869+, F3892+, F3907+, F3949+, F3956+, F3994+, F4003+, F4042+, F4111+, F4176+, F4188_PF3539+, F4244+, F4257+, F4282+, F4338+, F489+, F492+, F526+, F557+, F565+, F646+, F716+, F719+, F736+, F741+, F836+, F837+, F862+, F896+, F995+, FGC11678+, FGC11897_YP327+, FGC12120+, FGC12627_Y3429+, FGC13364_Y3138+, FGC16362_Z18162+, FGC16683_Y5619+, FGC1721_Y5322+, FGC20866_ZS2566+, FGC20874_ZS2572+, FGC28639_YP556+, FGC29572+, FGC3718_Y6369+, FGC6948_Y2703+, K257+, K386+, L1093+, L1186+, L132+, L253+, L294+, L325+, L387+, L440+, L442+, L484+, L492+, L498+, L503+, L556+, L782+, L817+, L840+, L99+, M116+, M129+, M139+, M171+, M238+, M251+, M262+, M275+, M288+, M367+, M39+, M69+, M89+, M94+, M9574+, M9588+, N4+, P102+, P108+, P117+, P118+, P135+, P136+, P141+, P145+, P148+, P151+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P268+, P269+, P289+, P305+, P52+, P59+, P84+, P91+, PAGES00048+, PAGES00049+, PAGES00081+, PAGES00101+, PAGES00105+, PF1015+, PF1026+, PF1031+, PF1085+, PF1097+, PF1141+, PF1147+, PF1152+, PF1164+, PF1169+, PF121+, PF1232+, PF1252+, PF1269+, PF1270+, PF1279+, PF1283+, PF133+, PF1368+, PF147+, PF1562+, PF1577+, PF1587+, PF22+, PF228+, PF2334+, PF2481+, PF2495+, PF2579+, PF2593+, PF2611+, PF2624+, PF2635+, PF2643+, PF2745+, PF276+, PF288+, PF293+, PF302+, PF3051+, PF3086+, PF3107+, PF3220+, PF328+, PF3298+, PF3320+, PF3823+, PF3890+, PF3964+, PF3986+, PF4105+, PF4246+, PF4533+, PF4573+, PF4576+, PF4589+, PF4592+, PF4647+, PF4720+, PF4957+, PF5014+, PF5122+, PF535+, PF5381+, PF5735+, PF5787+, PF5792+, PF601+, PF6063+, PF625+, PF6275+, PF6286+, PF6300+, PF6314+, PF6369+, PF644+, PF6673+, PF668+, PF671+, PF679+, PF6864+, PF698+, PF700+, PF7067+, PF7328+, PF7341+, PF7374+, PF7527+, PF7557+, PF794+, PF806+, PF829+, PF888+, PF907+, PF93+, PF946+, PF966+, PF968+, PF971+, PF997+, PK1+, PR805+, rs12116413+, rs16980396+, rs16980499+, rs17842387+, rs2032652+, rs2075640+, rs35249440+, rs35407486+, rs7067237+, rs7892924+, rs7893044+, rs9306845+, rs9306848+, rs9785670+, rs9785743+, rs9785853+, rs9785905+, rs9786082+, rs9786181+, rs9786247+, rs9786290+, rs9786325+, rs9786774+, S7123+, SK1247_Y4915+, SK1410_Y5528_Z20169+, V174+, V186+, V187+, V205+, V21+, V216+, V221+, V227+, V250+, V29+, V59+, V79+, V90+, V94+, Y1038+, Y1049+, Y1083+, Y1113+, Y1122+, Y32+, Y4864_Z16422+, Y5272+, Y5305_Z16500+, Y5759_Z16420+, Y6181+, Y763+, YP321+, YSC0000081+, YSC0000150+, YSC0000216+, YSC0000292+, YSC0001071+, Z11180+, Z1149+, Z14303+, Z1456+, Z1476+, Z1483+, Z1504+, Z1518+, Z1589+, Z1593+, Z1616+, Z17153+, Z18140+, Z1835+, Z1975+, Z315+, Z3723+, Z39+, Z477+, Z625+, Z767+, Z966+, ZS1727+

The answer to why predictors fail is likely this code string. You are only providing the positive variants tested, so Morley algorithm doesn't know the negative status at critical branch points. All that it can do is attempt to provide a best fit based on the positives. Without knowing exactly what test revision a person took, it's impossible to impute this.

When the algorithms are provided with negatives, they can penalize the scores or use a decision tree algorithm. Even then the machine won't always be 100% correct due to possibility of multiple back mutations.

ArmandoR1b
08-08-2016, 03:35 PM
The answer to why predictors fail is likely this code string. You are only providing the positive variants tested, so Morley algorithm doesn't know the negative status at critical branch points. All that it can do is attempt to provide a best fit based on the positives. Without knowing exactly what test revision a person took, it's impossible to impute this.

When the algorithms are provided with negatives, they can penalize the scores or use a decision tree algorithm. Even then the machine won't always be 100% correct due to possibility of multiple back mutations.
Right, but the first version of Geno didn't have so many false positives as Geno 2.0 and the Geno 2.0 test only transfers positives to FTDNA but they also transfer a CSV file. I figured out how to convert the SNPs to positives and negatives from his Geno 2.0 CVS file to a spreadsheet then I converted that back into a comma separated file. He does have some false negatives in the CT portion of his upstream SNPs but it does show him H-M69 positive. H-P266 is also positive but it is currently listed as unreliable by ISOGG. He gets the same results for those SNPs at 23andme so we know from the 23andme test the H-M69 is highly likely to be his terminal SNP even though they told him his terminal SNP was F.


L183-, Z16922-, BY2237+, CTS9909-, FGC5129-, L47-, U1-, F788+, CTS7776-, M2783+, Y1040-, A573-, Z17428-, P310-, FGC13505-, M4-, F3863-, CTS11846-, F2179-, Z378-, FGC1827-, PF4573+, P233-, F2527-, FGC20796-, CTS231-, F3451-, F302-, F1839-, F1776-, Z2956-, P72-, CTS6010-, PF5564-, SK1115-, A431-, F2338-, FGC1874-, Y4174-, M3162-, CTS2278-, FGC7652-, F1756-, F276-, Z17459-, F988-, FGC3252+, Z2057-, CTS8064-, BY754-, PK1-, L40-, V16-, F633-, F2044-, PF3233-, s5490+, CTS6410-, Z17416-, F2732-, L1069-, M89+, L577-, M327-, L1317-, F1120-, Z381-, CTS8034-, A892-, PF4533-, PF167+, L700-, F672-, CTS484-, S12460-, CTS11087-, CTS4349-, BY690-, P192-, FGC7543-, F4111+, F422-, M513-, Y1129-, YP414-, A1236-, YP335-, V149-, FGC1861-, CTS10511-, F1262-, CTS6483-, BY22-, Z15512-, FGC2-, L855-, F2753+, F1249-, FGC4314-, F1259-, BY182-, PF3231-, CTS6909-, M58-, L782+, Y2799-, L1323-, L476-, L636+, F856-, L660-, Z282-, CTS3729-, F701-, PF3122-, P95-, CTS4414-, F650-, Z17461-, BY1626-, Z951-, M3132-, S22470-, PF3297-, FGC14887+, FGC19437-, PF876+, PF4592+, F2182-, CTS9044-, F1690-, M143-, F2320-, Z2197-, M4254-, CTS6245-, PF5804-, S17698-, F1217-, L54-, V191-, A885-, CTS11522-, A541-, F2067-, A911-, BY2475-, Z22-, F1505-, M68-, PF5519-, FGC9784-, YP733-, F2890-, CTS101-, Y1123-, Z733-, CTS2174-, CTS11968-, CTS7017-, F3656-, PF3022-, L609-, F3110-, P28-, F1497-, Y1122+, L483-, L650-, CTS6704+, L804-, F471-, M3153-, Z319-, CTS5375-, F787-, L833-, Z2534-, F4124-, PF4589+, Z7706-, BY417-, s1812-, Z16377-, BY1703-, F2719-, F2428-, M172-, F1252-, L53-, P122-, CTS2820-, CTS5282-, F2656-, F3868-, FGC5151-, PF7263-, CTS1858-, F2035-, Z87-, M406-, CTS6266-, L517-, F3270+, F3827-, CTS8125-, Z17456-, L1257-, M146-, Z16432-, L807-, F1928-, F3447-, Z73-, PF5197-, F919-, F3859-, P148+, CTS701-, F2903-, Z3208+, CTS1936-, PF5721-, M177-, A571-, CTS11954-, F789-, P327-, PF2836-, CTS8715-, L43-, CTS1171-, L16-, PF4189-, Z16535-, A356+, CTS7357-, L425-, M3125-, CTS3658-, Z75-, F1633-, F2061-, Z3002-, L551-, Z916-, V227+, CTS5981-, CTS5794-, L659-, CTS11228-, PF3420-, FGC11413-, PF4535-, F1295-, Z3419-, FGC5656-, Z912-, F3182-, CTS9915-, Y3556-, PF229+, P59+, Y3557-, Z74-, Z330-, FGC1929-, CTS9333-, CTS9805-, F84-, CTS2298-, N2-, FGC11809+, P78-, V90+, Z16332-, PF914+, S8368-, Z17444-, Z920-, CTS302-, CTS722-, PK2-, L14-, S12035-, F4181-, M35.1-, CTS2611-, F2214-, Z1-, PF4567-, L38-, M62-, L241-, FGC4603-, Z44-, L603-, M16-, M3168-, L440+, V32-, L663-, FGC12643-, CTS3368-, F2937-, FGC3221-, Z17692-, CTS1868-, F3353-, FGC12145-, L4-, PF1917-, L420-, CTS2297-, FGC1769-, FGC5589-, CTS10641-, A411-, CTS11032-, CTS8143-, CTS11988-, CTS4264-, PF1252-, BY2209-, YP742-, CTS5463-, Z202-, F3452-, CTS11569-, P141+, F1673-, Z201-, FGC5170-, FGC3236-, F3797-, PF5842-, M63-, S20753-, CTS11133-, PF2506-, M69+, PF3120-, M105-, PF6498-, F1319-, CTS52-, F3103-, CTS4276-, P151+, F2974-, CTS48-, Z2245-, CTS11440-, FGC5642+, F2181-, CTS11876-, CTS6581-, CTS6889-, F2094-, s854-, PF1919-, U152-, CTS5964-, CTS1774-, V67-, PF5683-, CTS10145-, CTS5913-, CTS7768-, P225-, Z17457-, CTS1853-, FGC20767-, CTS6942-, F440-, FGC8077-, CTS11043-, BY224-, Z17282-, S14328-, S11699-, F3092+, F725-, PF2893-, CTS11544-, SK568-, CTS11436-, M107-, M8-, Z8193-, Z16522+, FGC20563-, CTS9039-, S11475-, FGC1840+, BY928-, Z1853-, F3053-, CTS218-, M171+, Y1039-, PF899+, PF6850-, L275-, CTS12966-, Z16841+, FGC1809-, FGC20568-, CTS9096-, M253-, S23409-, F386+, L299-, V85-, CTS9341-, P256-, PF15+, F624-, CTS2413-, F3072-, A48-, F1481-, F1992-, F130-, Z18101-, Z375-, F2371+, F1830-, CTS8754-, DF81-, F972-, M33-, CTS8579-, M1776-, CTS677-, FGC12768-, P238-, FGC23390-, s7898-, CTS6531-, S2606-, F2360-, Z348-, CTS5941-, CTS12024-, L665-, Y5122-, PF4515-, M137-, F2869-, Z17433+, Z60-, M101-, M3177-, Z384-, PF3337-, F1863-, CTS3655-, FGC9804-, V168+, F2236+, F4312-, Z16274-, CTS3578-, F4325-, F155-, F3084-, F61-, PF3177-, PF3330-, Z234-, L401-, PF5779-, Y6693-, S17999+, S21184-, A427+, PF3221-, M149-, CTS7759-, F4236-, F3895-, CTS11787-, BY202-, CTS10893-, BY1573-, F315-, Y6060-, PF825-, FGC14133-, F3954-, F4017-, CTS9322+, F36-, Y5360-, M377-, CTS6353-, M51-, F1860-, F1136+, F2188-, FGC12187-, CTS5690-, F2010-, CTS11741-, L679-, F2530-, CTS1228-, BY709-, L130-, L717-, F3318-, M127-, F2861-, F381-, M192-, CTS9996-, Z744-, PF3394-, CTS1779-, CTS5933+, L179-, CTS4617-, PF5705-, FGC597-, Z16266-, CTS11746-, CTS3573-, L681+, CTS245-, CTS11969-, Z639-, F3220-, L96-, CTS424-, P135+, F1594-, Z268-, F256-, Z17458-, P291-, FGC11904-, BY20-, PF2549-, CTS8300+, CTS2255-, Z17472-, Z4082+, F2356-, L238-, BY2183-, L286-, Z18140-, F4249-, V183-, L48-, F1898-, L271-, F728-, Y1092-, L817+, F159-, PF2287-, CTS10682-, PF1072+, P100-, CTS9336-, A250+, F1829-, Z15460-, BY2023+, M339-, V189+, Z514-, Z57-, CTS3636-, FGC1830-, M201-, BY354-, U290-, CTS6753-, Z16520+, CTS730+, F3967-, CTS7538-, F3046-, YP263-, F3972-, L633-, PF2824-, F371+, PF3049-, A25-, V232-, L94-, FGC1723-, L232-, L667-, Y5134+, L525-, PF3278-, Z81-, L45-, A95-, F2504-, F133-, L446-, CTS321-, L56-, F2641-, Z15517-, F563-, F1680-, L332-, M47-, FGC5632+, L334-, F2685-, Z7-, Z15511-, S673-, Y5131+, Z16511-, F3309-, P70-, L460-, Z17485-, CTS682-, CTS3393-, FGC6564-, CTS1633-, FGC16362+, CTS9678-, Z26917-, Z18133-, CTS4185-, BY69-, F2934-, F1734-, P3-, S1774-, F1912-, F2139-, Z907-, CTS10656-, CTS5447-, Z16290-, S6631-, Z16245-, CTS6630-, L805-, P98-, PF5695-, FGC9786-, Z18128-, A4-, Z17677-, F4035-, CTS5804-, P221-, CTS4519-, PF3174-, F1803-, CTS8476-, L215-, A260-, Z154-, L714-, BY707-, CTS10108-, P171-, F3830-, P168-, F1343-, PF2263-, L80-, F2654+, U175-, Z2191-, M3354-, L264-, CTS5035-, A765-, F3739-, F1426-, F2137-, V83-, CTS10082-, M3338-, PF5844-, s11477-, DF85-, L708-, CTS5793-, S20905-, CTS4528-, Z240-, CTS4848-, L2-, ZS4682-, F3945-, CTS6433-, PF860+, M289-, F4119-, L617-, L166-, PF3118-, M153-, F3433-, A247-, Y368-, CTS3777-, FGC20756-, Z150-, L57-, FGC3253-, P102+, CTS4325-, F317-, L502-, F403-, Z786-, PF5723-, M3-, Z3489-, P232-, M88-, CTS4188-, CTS5487-, Z16527-, F2612-, FGC11345-, CTS2223-, CTS7268-, BY453-, Z827-, Z2069+, L662-, P159+, CTS10495-, L594-, F3022-, F3085-, FGC7-, F2180-, Z16689+, PF1097-, A430-, CTS684-, Z2970-, CTS2387-, F1150-, CTS9122-, L813-, FGC4166+, S5284-, FGC607-, F3311-, Z16921-, PF4520-, FGC12307-, L46-, Z16540-, CTS8486-, CTS7187-, CTS12949-, Y6067-, F3169-, F3402-, YSC0000261-, CTS860+, Z30-, CTS3221-, L709-, CTS8742-, F1918-, F3513-, FGC1754-, F3348-, Y1117-, M3145-, CTS11352-, F1236-, V215-, PF1031-, Z38-, CTS3087-, Z15478+, CTS2762-, F2434-, Z328-, PF3931-, FGC5590-, CTS3380-, Z12005-, P127-, A903-, L335-, M49-, F3810-, Z11917-, CTS10321-, L557+, M2823-, Z3965-, CTS6492-, Z16889+, F1694-, F235-, F4267-, BY2401-, CTS2362-, CTS11970+, P215-, PK3-, PF5531-, CTS1780-, PF5732-, CTS610-, V222-, CTS1139-, Z17979+, L190-, V93-, P55-, L1286-, M353-, L674-, L1239-, V75-, Y1056-, S6687-, CTS8531-, CTS6397-, CTS12004-, S7402-, CTS6211-, CTS4658-, P196-, FGC1933-, M9006+, L100-, PF1864-, Z17559-, Z16268+, CTS8949-, CTS11085-, M3175-, L847-, CTS4866-, BY563-, Z17447+, CTS11732-, CTS462-, Z15467-, P57-, F45-, PF5143-, Y2905-, CTS2609-, F2121-, CTS11149-, PF3222-, A900-, CTS5313-, CTS10568-, M5533-, V22-, PR4859-, FGC5124+, PF208+, F313-, M9228-, L144-, Z16902-, Z16533-, F3342-, M378-, CTS1451-, L723-, s6000+, F3955-, PF5535-, Z17423-, PF3339-, Z17449-, F2572-, CTS11984-, FGC1879-, CTS8746-, BY685+, FGC8579-, YP270-, F3776-, L429-, F1316-, M3427-, CTS6489-, Z16532-, PF2883-, L23-, Z72-, BY743-, F2795-, BY2184-, S730-, M115-, L1452-, CTS3576-, FGC7538+, P128-, L626-, L260-, BY251-, M3293-, Y1055-, A227-, CTS8450-, CTS10712-, PF3649-, Z17479-, P129-, Z16534-, FGC624+, CTS11025-, F242-, M9210+, CTS8880-, F498-, s780-, CTS11086-, CTS4793-, M3129-, P58-, BY567-, PF1044+, Z2988-, PF3304-, CTS3767-, PF4838-, L196-, F2522-, Z16513-, FGC606+, L931-, F138-, CTS140-, PF3417-, CTS1404-, CTS2514-, F1406-, PF3881-, M334-, CTS9737-, S16017-, Z948-, P186-, DF94-, PF3170-, CTS11581-, CTS5942-, CTS8974-, L649-, F3735+, P153-, L715-, S690-, CTS5393-, PF5522-, Z12004-, FGC22157-, DF88-, F3806+, F2680-, Z862-, CTS1366-, S11515-, BY2378-, FGC20748-, PF3306-, M65-, CTS2643-, FGC14881-, F1686-, CTS3384-, F2317-, S25234-, M19-, CTS11874-, F2873+, BY2156-, M9111+, F3062-, CTS11130-, P172-, M258-, Y2056-, U198-, FGC14124+, V79+, Z1900-, CTS5606-, CTS4549-, CTS606-, CTS7430-, F2016-, BY1545-, PF5532-, DF106-, V28-, L796-, FGC5158+, CTS11382-, Z16355-, F3121-, CTS10851-, CTS3402-, Z16717-, L441-, P56-, CTS11839-, L1287-, PF1361-, CTS10449-, L583-, Z15469-, CTS4916-, F1329+, BY713-, L533+, F1349-, PF235-, FGC12993-, CTS11729-, L257-, L474-, PF4593-, Z212-, CTS11831-, F2840-, FGC9777-, Y5133-, M3208+, F2104-, Z218-, F3923-, CTS5492-, FGC904-, F2022-, FGC5641-, Z325-, BY1250-, L424-, CTS1897-, L419-, CTS5489-, M288+, A493+, CTS9158-, P269+, Z791-, L92-, Z16450+, FGC22225-, M44-, CTS5607-, BY2227-, CTS10008-, CTS6838-, PF1027+, CTS8723+, V29+, Z749-, F873-, M37-, F2213-, K30-, FGC23404-, S1121-, F1060-, CTS6378-, L213-, CTS10240-, PF328-, M191-, CTS8239-, PF5516-, CTS1933-, L579-, F2928-, P204-, CTS8458-, F479-, F4066-, L837-, P61-, CTS709-, CTS7655-, BY721-, M410-, CTS713-, Z16536-, F240-, M3215-, S23981-, FGC13415-, P198-, M1773-, F4040-, CTS7275+, Z16918-, Y1086-, BY433-, Z17468-, Z20656-, F884-, L51-, L453-, F2923-, PF6837-, CTS7453-, PF162+, V199-, Z35-, CTS6916-, P99-, F18-, F1877-, FGC626-, FGC1918-, F1513-, Z344-, Z307-, L570-, Z221-, CTS7789-, L1414-, CTS1652-, F152-, S756-, CTS4021-, FGC3265-, F2301-, CTS10147+, s850+, F549-, PF3924-, F434-, CTS4472-, L459-, F2357-, FGC20571+, CTS220-, M97-, CTS9050-, FGC5609+, Z16671-, BY1223+, Z16323-, F2839-, M448-, CTS574-, CTS6906-, Y1038+, CTS10531-, P298-, F2029-, FGC5127-, M198-, A34-, CTS5314-, L793-, YP445-, F310-, FGC1878-, FGC1855-, CTS11796-, CTS1303-, BY1388-, F3323-, F1273-, M3179-, BY2222-, Z276-, CTS579-, L164-, F3137-, P115-, PF3287-, F826-, F377-, CTS350-, L365-, CTS946-, Z334-, F3755-, L792-, CTS11955-, CTS7824-, F494-, M195-, F4161-, Y1108-, F1553-, S778-, Z287-, F2941-, L297-, F1974-, Z4093-, CTS6908-, Y1051-, F3847-, CTS8890-, CTS3641-, M102-, PF1904-, CTS11058-, PF3331-, U186-, CTS11750-, CTS1994-, CTS7540-, PF210+, V19-, F3779-, YP314-, CTS11737-, F2726-, BY2391-, BY764-, M179-, F3371-, PF3070-, PF5517-, M56-, FGC7534-, F1920-, F1758-, V174+, M240-, BY17-, P277-, A896-, F4064-, Z18491-, L330-, F3607-, F2028-, V94+, CTS7870-, M224-, CTS2518-, CTS7951-, L702-, L1093+, M86-, A159-, F2848-, A905-, Y1121-, CTS562-, PF3898-, F2332+, L226-, BY794-, Z16275-, F1675-, PF287+, Z17653-, F341-, M280-, FGC1599+, M94+, F3229-, F71-, F2189-, FGC4133-, CTS6-, DF25-, Z2993-, PF4341-, Z16925-, CTS5351-, L816-, CTS2734-, Y367-, CTS1982-, BY2146-, F4163-, CTS2457-, YP737-, CTS6000-, F1290-, FGC1810-, Z18808-, FGC14890+, M251+, F3327-, PF7457-, Z138-, L803-, M8951+, CTS1977-, F3039-, P80-, M200-, M178-, CTS11990-, Z49-, L78-, F3850-, F3177-, CTS8230-, CTS10113-, L1324+, CTS10330-, F818-, CTS9193-, CTS4803-, M9296-, U181-, F2576-, A1237-, YP416-, BY1610-, F114-, CTS3771-, M157.1-, A893-, F2975-, P79-, L704-, A726-, CTS1011-, F3785-, CTS3974-, A212-, P237-, PF4506-, F971-, V66-, M283-, Z16672-, V219-, P202+, Z944-, BY223+, BY1630+, PF2818-, F323-, Z28-, CTS689-, M3192-, Z12-, L339-, M286-, CTS12583-, CTS595-, F1344-, CTS3543+, PF2901-, PF4252-, Z2984-, CTS7306-, CTS9894+, CTS10100-, Z16859-, P169-, F1685-, CTS2074-, M9119+, CTS11267-, M52-, F2528-, L673-, A45-, L284-, L733-, L651-, F429-, L20-, ZP44-, F3516-, CTS4305-, PF3066-, A92-, CTS4209+, BY1933-, BY203-, F3547-, CTS5934-, M45-, CTS892-, P123-, CTS3105-, DF96-, F4195-, S1122-, CTS4115-, BY673-, FGC1813-, BY2206-, F3243-, P40+, Z3353+, F3133-, CTS5687-, Z269-, L472-, F879-, CTS3431+, L784-, CTS10320-, DF19-, M165-, Z16837+, L1-, P96-, CTS12074-, F427-, Z15462-, Z16354-, F3070-, Y1074-, F435-, F1127+, CTS219-, FGC12159-, F3834-, PF3299-, F1452-, M229-, PF4523-, L682-, Z15554-, Z16348-, Z17089-, CTS1701-, Z51-, FGC11394-, FGC5079-, Z736-, FGC17608-, F3795-, L17-, FGC9778-, PF5795-, FGC17307-, F3217-, Z17504-, Z17644-, Z351-, F2962-, F1276-, CTS6503-, Z12070-, CTS3517-, Z950-, P262-, Z17272-, M207-, F1096+, BY2225-, A151-, Z12071+, CTS8236-, Z16278-, PF3934-, M3413-, Z11895-, CTS5284-, S7190+, CTS6236-, F499-, CTS203-, F2505-, Y6064+, M1154-, PF5236-, L126-, M1745-, CTS9484-, CTS5406-, Z26720-, S25542-, F3971-, CTS4931-, L421-, P109-, PF3155-, CTS11232-, F2125-, U106-, FGC615-, M461-, P144-, M5790-, M214-, F1754-, M76-, M387-, F247-, V20-, M185-, FGC5939-, F923-, CTS3444-, Z270-, Z16694-, F438-, F2515-, FGC5173-, BY149-, CTS7683-, Z17418+, CTS6788-, Y1046-, FGC12433-, FGC17162-, M9152+, F986-, L181-, PF3447-, PF671-, BY917-, BY573+, CTS11227-, Z336-, Z1842+, L300-, CTS10298-, FGC623+, M5571-, FGC20761-, F2415-, F3338-, SK1914-, Y1113+, P266+, S11571-, Y1103-, P29-, F4015-, CTS9995-, F273-, CTS4066-, L187-, Z245-, CTS9003-, Z4095-, F1108-, Z3200+, Z15468-, CTS4960-, CTS7642-, CTS6670-, F271-, F1234-, CTS4179-, CTS5409-, PF7228-, CTS3385-, V225-, F1823-, CTS5726-, L625+, CTS2893-, L427-, PF232+, CTS10713-, F746-, FGC754-, CTS5602-, F3625+, Z21254-, FGC5585-, M420-, F823-, F2633-, BY564-, Z2962-, CTS4304-, L229-, F108-, Z17564-, V201-, L812-, F1780-, Z335-, F1990-, PF4558-, Z16891-, A815-, PF732+, Z17973-, F2183-, FGC14129-, F3774-, CTS10824-, M148-, M423-, F1100-, A90-, Z29-, Z917-, L428-, V63-, F2853-, M274-, FGC17168+, L846-, CTS1186-, FGC14729+, FGC11252-, F940-, F1214-, BY718+, Z1936-, PF3386-, Z140-, F646+, L1498-, CTS2215-, F742-, CTS6457-, BY269-, F2480+, S11611+, CTS5504-, F1399-, YSC0000224-, F140-, P289+, U2-, Z16352-, L21-, P268+, F2211-, Z1935-, L790-, F984-, Z3428-, CTS6068-, M5-, L801-, CTS2955-, Z4091-, F3419-, Z16701-, M202-, FGC11379-, CTS5383-, M83-, CTS6452-, Z1568-, F2887-, FGC23397-, F620-, ZS4604+, Z190-, FGC9788-, Z17440-, F54-, M3194+, PF3485-, L905-, Z16917-, Z12001+, CTS9440-, L448-, L808-, CTS4364+, PF7443-, F2924-, Z278-, PF5583-, Z949-, M14-, V14-, L542-, S11510-, CTS3808-, Z847-, M189-, M31-, PF3816-, M458-, Y1125-, CTS3386-, V250+, CTS11723-, PF5567-, FGC5608-, L52-, CTS12654-, U174-, CTS10639-, CTS8032-, CTS34-, PF3303-, P295-, YP736-, CTS3271-, F713-, FGC7156-, M3351-, CTS6073-, F3981-, FGC1871-, F3390-, CTS9106-, L137-, M3905-, F4092-, CTS2851-, PF5693-, CTS5946-, CTS6428-, S5668-, FGC1770-, P39-, FGC20750-, ZS4601+, F3921-, F2364-, CTS5145-, V21+, Z11-, CTS3487-, P166+, Z2567-, CTS4285-, CTS9291-, M267-, L818-, L201-, M3355-, L237-, F3067-, L497-, S23032-, CTS4187-, M514-, F2079-, Y5525-, P173-, L39-, DF109+, F2333-, F417-, F3579-, FGC13498-, L795-, L475-, BY710-, PF3379-, M9083-, Z17475-, F1924+, CTS4239-, F1728-, F717-, F1672-, PF1363-, V4-, L295-, L637-, Z2183-, PF5823-, CTS7611+, CTS12472-, PF1269-, CTS10234-, DF23-, CTS9380-, FGC919-, P164-, F3099-, Z4073-, CTS2187-, Z329-, F3836-, CTS9539+, P321-, CTS6239-, F478-, Z1884-, PF3310-, P30-, F492+, CTS2006-, DF21-, M9180+, Z17482-, CTS2506-, FGC5185+, FGC1847-, PF5524-, s856-, Z756-, ZS4597+, BY1375-, F2946-, PF7445-, M3434-, Z1300-, CTS230-, PF6865-, L580-, F1340-, L456-, L629-, Z17281-, Z17429+, F2524-, FGC1832-, CTS6149-, CTS11004-, CTS3763-, FGC11808-, CTS10935-, V216+, CTS11441-, F2631-, M3216+, PF3342-, CTS5658-, F1411-, F4164-, CTS9533-, M247-, Z15463-, F2083-, Z15475-, PF3892-, F634-, CTS6837-, P54-, Z15550+, CTS4092-, P82-, CTS7912-, CTS511-, Z3494+, FGC4108-, F1905-, Z17657+, P136+, Z16842+, CTS1215-, BY930-, CTS7662-, F2643-, F3737-, Z16702-, F2427-, S1120-, CTS7136-, Z198-, PF1801-, CTS3802+, P317-, YSC0000075-, CTS11843-, CTS6063+, Y4706-, FGC5628+, BY132-, F1478-, F1707-, FGC11915-, V164-, FGC23395-, F2683-, Z730-, M357-, PF1045+, PF4576+, FGC930-, PF3168-, F4032-, F1813+, FGC1027-, P121-, F4006-, F2244-, F2771-, BY2171+, FGC1845-, P84+, CTS8963-, Z17434+, L1308-, S15280-, CTS10560-, F265-, F1914-, PF2021-, M521-, BY136+, CTS827-, M59-, F17-, F1033-, Y7477-, F3669-, CTS12867-, S15510-, F4020-, V102-, L1327-, CTS4336-, S11695+, M3292-, CTS4268-, Z11896+, FGC24646+, F3505-, CTS1843-, F2131-, CTS10475-, A1239-, M163-, N4+, F3120-, A81+, F2208+, Z1941-, F2351-, P328-, M428-, CTS2860-, Z305-, F2122-, FGC622-, F2018+, CTS3872-, CTS10674-, CTS6957-, PF3181-, CTS3837-, F115-, M347-, F908-, P113-, CTS9325+, F3844-, L496-, PF3293-, L296-, s857-, L1237-, PF3073-, L167-, BY2284-, PF1442-, CTS11207-, FGC11903-, PF3175-, F430-, L601-, Y1101-, Z143-, Y6952+, FGC20752-, F1977-, L568-, M3377-, PF1531-, FGC23402-, L562-, F2454-, F2469-, CTS6231-, Y5748-, CTS3648-, M223-, BY2347-, PF3315-, L258-, Z63-, CTS10497-, L892-, P108+, F3922-, Y1094-, CTS3562-, F373-, F4300-, s4634+, PF5586-, M34-, F1353-, L592-, PF4202-, ZW09-, F1836-, V151-, M322-, FGC11244-, F1422-, PF5686-, CTS6303-, Z17817-, M2339-, CTS10923-, Y1041-, FGC13408-, CTS6325-, SK565-, P314-, L371-, FGC20769-, F1770-, F2270-, CTS11071+, PF5390-, CTS10044-, PF3286-, PF6652-, BY2147-, F238-, F1239-, Z710-, M151-, Y4496-, Z80-, F2817-, CTS750-, F1213-, F3613-, P4-, M103-, CTS3717-, CTS2549-, F1095-, F3686-, CTS5529-, L329-, CTS3505-, IMS-JST021355-, Z17414-, A902-, FGC17305-, Z17599-, s744-, FGC23403+, PF5806-, CTS4198-, M2775+, Y1124-, Z17497-, CTS6803-, F1370-, CTS9860-, PF815+, CTS4523-, F414-, CTS12600-, PF5744-, L713-, M478-, Z3308-, F465-, CTS11844-, A46-, CTS5396-, F3291-, CTS11048-, CTS7667-, PF223+, F845-, L692-, CTS9439-, A173-, F1303-, CTS342-, F2212-, FGC11912-, Z16916+, BY2252+, S11759-, F3284-, M110-, F741+, s7536+, CTS12976+, S6915-, IMS-JST029149-, F1689-, V190-, CTS10894-, CTS5368-, MEH2-, CTS8380-, Z15494-, PF3147-, L516-, S786-, Z2535-, Z88-, PF5566-, BY147+, CTS6147-, L245-, CTS2509-, S23189+, CTS11474-, V148-, CTS3914-, L72-, BY128-, Z1501-, F614-, M87-, Z17483-, CTS5601-, FGC5607+, S7520-, A410-, Z39+, BY205-, F1367-, CTS9183-, F4286-, Z966-, FGC1869-, F1643-, F1066-, PF3661-, CTS693-, CTS9710-, CTS7556-, M1155-, CTS335-, F142-, CTS1313-, Z17651-, F1250-, V221+, L285-, PF1472-, L840+, M70-, ZP41-, CTS1800-, F3675-, CTS11979-, S1491+, F3289-, F2758-, Z17430-, CTS1208-, PF997-, Z921-, L854-, FGC2268-, M241-, PF4611-, Z15528-, Z17654-, CTS9083-, Z17403-, FGC617-, P15-, CTS11447-, F4173-, FGC1848-, PF6866-, CTS3045-, Z70-, A901-, BY2462-, CTS10359-, FGC10125-, S742-, CTS3301-, Z261-, F1251-, F3752-, L422-, P111-, FGC5646-, BY135-, CTS5175-, FGC1862-, CTS5458-, CTS9114-, PF5837-, Y1116-, CTS6891-, Y1077-, M222-, P47-, F1309-, CTS9251-, CTS5416-, F4171-, Z227-, CTS97+, F2746-, F1345-, L1280-, CTS1276+, PF672+, CTS10965-, F2143-, Z16521-, CTS11907+, PF1026-, PF889-, CTS3698-, Z327-, CTS77-, P259-, Z20559+, PF4888-, Z922-, Y1067-, CTS10540-, F3791-, Z467-, Z2973-, CTS7543-, PF679-, PF6841-, F2533-, F3985-, PF4560-, F1727-, Z16541+, M481-, FGC11237-, FGC602-, P5-, M156-, PF3043-, CTS8850-, M9135-, F1266-, CTS1792-, CTS10054-, YP350-, Y5123-, Z209-, CTS11824-, M3198-, F1293-, M9139+, PF1283-, PF7264-, F3937-, F1111-, PF1029+, L693-, PF5747-, Z1504+, ZP43-, PF3229-, FGC12306-, L906-, Z274-, FGC3262-, F2600+, Z17489-, Z2983+, F3647-, BY436-, F666-, L447-, Z3642-, L442+, FGC11378-, PF3803-, Z2195-, F2603-, F3223-, PF2546-, CTS2163-, L1403-, F1337-, A259-, FGC17297-, PF4505-, Z1297-, PF6858-, V25-, PF3312-, FGC3260-, S788-, CTS9506-, FGC1838-, CTS11549-, F2960-, PF5526-, F1134-, CTS736-, F1638-, L326-, CTS8419-, CTS10057-, F3119-, BY715+, FGC571+, Z2247-, F175-, F1699-, MC07-, F3897-, CTS483-, PF3098-, S18462-, CTS7285+, FGC11322-, CTS5009-, BY2362-, CTS5822-, F3769-, PR3654-, F402-, V229-, L1335-, A1238-, FGC14894-, FGC5584+, Y1049+, F796-, CTS753-, CTS1229-, A1240-, PF790-, Z19219-, BY2243-, S5246-, CTS8037-, P307-, M181-, Z263-, CTS8023-, Z1133-, CTS10937-, F525-, CTS10465-, L67-, Z16927-, Y7263-, F3525-, M161-, FGC5126-, PF3296-, PF2785-, CTS9957-, V15-, F2959-, F2767+, M211-, Z65-, F4079-, Y6691-, CTS9882-, S733-, CTS2941-, Z768-, PF7589-, CTS6621-, F1800-, CTS9984-, PF5593-, FGC8578-, CTS1293-, CTS12931-, Z17645-, L27-, S17911-, Z290-, MC02+, F2343-, CTS4475-, Z46-, Z6304-, Z21256-, Z2122-, F2789-, S4924-, CTS1068-, F3896-, F406-, Z159-, L369-, CTS12049-, CTS4272-, FGC1721+, F3055-, F1843-, L163-, F444-, CTS2548-, CTS11986-, FGC14132-, L184-, Z139-, CTS3309-, Z2963-, F3417-, Z11910+, F254-, Z17557-, Y1050-, L554-, Z207-, P212-, Z16409-, F2026-, F2055-, F3244-, F3455-, S860-, P42-, M72-, CTS4273-, F3381-, F452-, F3286-, A566-, M4291-, CTS3334-, CTS9011-, CTS278-, V78-, S1667-, PF5658-, M2565-, s743-, s769-, CTS2817-, P117+, CTS11109-, F201-, Z203-, CTS616-, Z726-, Z2105-, CTS6342-, BY807-, M3489+, CTS2201-, V187+, Y1127-, A906-, CTS11667-, L396-, BY2489-, Z2976+, Z52-, Z16711-, M93-, P132-, PF1279-, M434-, F4062-, CTS6217-, F2560-, PF4517-, F2599-, PF3893-, YP739+, PF3345-, YSC0000033-, PF5889-, L287-, BY1542+, P87-, BY1210-, CTS7239-, M160-, L22-, CTS7922+, A6-, CTS9351-, V86-, L162-, Z59-, Y1089-, F2455-, CTS7184-, F3351-, CTS6373-, CTS8339-, PF4587-, F1528-, CTS175-, CTS7399-, L664-, CTS1483-, CTS10534-, BY67-, BY2518-, Z21265-, PF3817-, CTS3471-, FGC12138-, Z15545-, BY65+, PF6852-, L243-, M242-, CTS7658-, F2510-, F2325-, F2545-, CTS4299-, BY2112-, CTS7270-, FGC4847-, F2877-, F2159-, L50-, M138-, F2832-, K29-, F3825-, CTS11388-, P201-, SK1247+, F3252-, F2266-, M25-, Z3292-, YP569-, F2582-, PF3301-, CTS4622-, FGC1826-, Z347-, CTS10341-, CTS10723+, CTS10344-, FGC1751-, S1306-, P104-, F2868-, Z16858-, L552-, Z17427-, CTS7325-, CTS7620-, CTS4521-, F837+, PF1015-, CTS3664-, L639-, F2766-, PF3668-, Z806-, F412-, PF6587-, F2915-, PF7563-, CTS11744-, F844-, BY2337+, CTS10442-, CTS9190-, M318-, M169-, L7-, L556+, CTS11785-, F3393-, PF2890-, Z2961-, F593-, L90-, P218-, PF5791-, F579-, BY986+, PF7453-, MC14+, F745-, CTS8189-, A256-, PF3440-, CTS6230-, Z15507-, S22015-, Z149-, Z17296-, PK4-, PF5366-, CTS211-, F736+, F3777-, Z15534+, PF1368+, S1253-, F1975-, S25201-, CTS2157-, PF5160-, A494-, PF110+, DC27+, L99+, S17250-, F316-, F2617-, Z16685-, M427-, YSC0000234-, PF948+, F1693-, M9257+, F2109-, L1373-, CTS6504-, P131-, CTS8386-, BY2360-, Z17275+, MC01-, FGC14605-, P75-, CTS4158-, L503+, CTS6725-, FGC23380-, F4328-, S1251-, CTS11871-, A499-, CTS417-, CTS4413-, M227-, S865-, CTS1595-, Z160-, FGC14937-, MC04-, CTS8512-, M3103-, CTS8269-, F871-, Z16412-, L337-, FGC8561-, M13-, S23106-, M278-, F3143+, F449-, CTS5880-, BY8-, PF27-, F4027-, PF192+, CTS9975+, Z370-, F3395-, PF946-, S7370-, CTS5961-, M9220-, P145+, PF2450-, CTS9335-, CTS7045-, ZS4598-, M3154-, F131-, PF3300-, F3940-, S785-, Z910-, A850-, PF4564-, F286-, L148-, PF3241-, Y1065-, F1346-, Z2972-, CTS7942-, FGC5-, CTS8725-, F2472-, DF63-, V169-, CTS2661-, F100-, P103+, PF5815-, F3949+, CTS10738-, CTS5769-, Z194-, M3190-, M2664+, PF5790-, Z17695-, CTS6572-, M114-, Z16282-, M136-, Y5798-, FGC595-, CTS4034-, S15710-, CTS9753-, CTS8862-, Z367-, PF7562-, F1837-, P101-, CTS1658-, F1220-, L549-, CTS7215-, V180-, F516-, M342-, F722-, P119-, Z16539-, CTS7398-, FGC23399+, Z16399-, PF5132-, CTS3662+, L1198-, FGC7528-, Y539-, CTS6280-, L1029-, Z1500-, FGC17603-, F1439-, CTS1899-, Z17484-, F3853-, Z180-, L298-, CTS7832-, F1081-, FGC8507+, F3383-, BY1769-, F2657-, CTS356-, CTS7080-, Z911-, F1085-, F2634-, F299-, PF2897-, F1210-, F2145-, CTS10126-, FGC17308-, YSC0000225-, F743-, M166-, Y5305+, ZS20-, L1200-, L514-, F3082-, PF133-, CTS11041+, CTS6384-, M125-, S5741-, PF7558-, SK567-, M515-, Z714-, BY1237-, M43-, PF886+, PF3794-, CTS6476-, CTS4236-, CTS1117-, CTS3825-, CTS2488-, Z372-, M340-, CTS11285-, PF3346-, PF809+, s42-, FGC635-, Z16887+, S17330-, P181-, CTS11769-, CTS107-, Z17370+, CTS2517-, FGC924-, M204-, Z16673-, L1413-, Z731-, FGC11917-, Z6-, BY4-, F3914-, CTS8959-, CTS4219-, Z18051-, Z31-, BY771-, L65.1-, S11121-, F2604-, Z17384-, L747-, F2381+, Z9-, F3915-, L600-, M9356+, CTS6265-, FGC17298-, Z17675-, V196-, CTS10896-, Z195-, F4088-, V88-, Z350-, CTS7296-, M66-, BY1054-, Z15500+, CTS12108-, L458-, Z841-, Z37-, Z17626+, CTS7210-, CTS7030-, A89-, S15301-, FGC12582-, CTS1664-, F996-, PF3457-, F1804-, Z16376-, S21825-, Z156-, CTS7204-, CTS2888-, V26-, FGC14891-, CTS11454-, CTS1029-, Z280-, F2503-, CTS8133-, FGC8590-, Z8-, F911-, F1298-, A561-, CTS11529-, CTS12018-, F1226-, F835+, Z2093-, CTS2550-, Z92-, F1986-, Z16407-, L55-, PF228-, L555-, CTS2272-, M145-, M208-, CTS35-, F3107-, CTS1845-, L627-, S1128-, Z283-, L29-, S25383-, Y1100-, L436-, P197-, Z253-, CTS11009-, L634-, CTS10687-, CTS6519-, F357-, Z16907+, CTS9738-, L569-, P154-, F137-, FGC12057+, F1092-, Z185-, Z15506-, CTS10720-, CTS188-, L573-, CTS4717-, Y1091-, BY733-, F2147-, PF278+, F2000-, F75-, L1195-, PF6863-, PF302+, M239-, F272-, Z2184-, FGC605-, M526-, L732-, PF601+, F3406-, CTS8057-, F2911-, Z945-, Z16-, F706-, CTS8584-, CTS6287-, PF794-, A91-, FGC7475-, PF3028-, FGC3101-, Y1022-, M203-, Z1506-, F720-, CTS11268-, PF3475-, CTS4368-, PF4843-, CTS10714-, M407-, CTS1211-, CTS1096-, F3982-, Z781-, PF3171-, L648-, L131-, M3149-, F3219-, F122-, L599-, PF1200-, PF627+, M1074-, CTS4783-, L719-, F3590-, PF6271-, FGC11344-, L731-, Z15556-, CTS6623-, Z16383-, L291-, P303-, PF6835-, FGC12436-, L716-, V203-, PF3149-, F1805-, CTS6434-, CTS5531-, F4102-, Z16860-, Z248-, Z713-, BY738-, F572-, F3114-, F1215-, FGC20048-, L246-, S1254-, F3567-, PF4363-, F2775-, CTS6334-, A664-, L180-, Z2040-, F1280-, F1304-, Z16905-, Z148-, F4073-, Z4139-, FGC11398-, F2777-, Y5113-, M28-, L1450-, CTS11540-, FGC4150+, CTS7929+, CTS3555-, F4116-, FGC3247-, F1241-, F3966-, Z631-, PF1060+, Z26-, FGC8738-, S2808-, L1240-, FGC9635-, P193-, s5239-, M38-, F3042-, L671-, A568-, P76-, CTS1975-, L6-, P308-, CTS1751-, Z11913+, Z255-, CTS3370-, L42-, F2093-, L259-, CTS1434-, Z16986+, F450-, CTS9883-, P263-, PF1431-, BY1551-, F182-, CTS10945-, Z17478-, PF1834-, Z3001-, PF5536-, M27-, Z17648-, L791-, M3426-, PF1455-, U21-, F1716-, L550-, M268-, V204-, Z141-, Z346-, V165-, PF3095-, PF2477-, FGC11339-, F3440-, CTS7467-, F4329-, Z1476-, CTS8781-, L528-, S23078-, Z17649-, F1400-, CTS5519-, BY1087+, PF1868-, M6-, Z1828-, FGC15527-, CTS1737-, P305+, L430-, L845-, F3927-, F1632-, PF3238-, Z17560-, PF3182-, FGC15160-, Z331-, M343-, Z288-, PF1169+, F2176-, PF4551-, M3130+, BY266-, CTS11078-, V7-, CTS9884-, FGC14936-, PF3237-, Y1114-, Z15519-, F1161-, V61-, CTS8432-, Z259-, Z16530-, F1232-, L519-, CTS8892-, Z16267-, M295-, F3043-, Z780-, A246+, CTS246-, BY900-, BY2361-, Z11903-, CTS8153-, L41-, CTS8196-, FGC21123+, PF3160-, CTS7111-, CTS1304-, F619-, F1835-, Y1044-, L165-, Z17446-, CTS8216+, L1199-, FGC7568-, V89-, FGC15254-, F1611-, PF2875-, CTS5714-, CTS2929-, Z18-, FGC1811+, F1351-, F3063-, PF1049+, CTS4373-, A139-, F867-, L15-, CTS3663-, V57-, F3469-, BY678-, F793-, s4004+, FGC613-, BY714+, M290-, CTS931-, CTS7803+, CTS11578-, M26-, V217-, L739-, BY2403-, L270-, V10-, CTS2906-, CTS687+, L595-, BY2-, F489+, L426-, FGC16324+, CTS10504-, M174-, Z1817+, PF1371-, V159-, CTS8289-, F723-, M129+, Z21258-, PF3148-, M1775-, Z16890-, F2935-, CTS1789+, CTS8492+, F3632+, CTS132-, CTS6507-, F4297-, F2346-, Z15543+, Z109-, CTS6340-, L485-, L1451-, F3821-, F196-, Z249-, CTS10552-, CTS7277-, PF2258-, L333-, P81-, M42-, F3640-, L233-, CTS1163-, M3297-, F3237-, CTS3519+, F4233-, BY236-, CTS9892-, Z16677+, CTS10772-, S10807-, F1307-, s781-, A641-, M194-, F632-, Y2006-, CTS8277-, L254+, P183-, L703-, F1956+, PF3433-, Z3250-, FGC13503+, P330-, M106-, F660-, L135-, CTS4937-, F4084-, F964-, Z16512-, CTS7182-, F668-, F3147-, L398-, FGC13372-, SK1171-, S1026-, Z904-, CTS10286-, P120-, PF5733-, Z79-, S1523-, L437-, Z16292-, CTS7498-, L712-, M123-, PF5802-, CTS11577-, F292-, Z17288+, F2173-, F3939-, F2544-, FGC7448-, FGC923-, CTS4406-, F134-, Z145-, CTS4318-, M155-, CTS2161-, L836-, F3256-, M285-, Z3495+, L930-, S691-, CTS2809-, FGC14884+, BY1420-, P107-, CTS4723-, PF230+, CTS7356-, L35-, F2743-, CTS2501-, L1197-, F1894-, BY751-, Y1083+, A883-, CTS3390-, CTS5312-, CTS4235+, PF3270-, CTS7930-, CTS5301-, FGC9661-, CTS5905-, F2591-, CTS2730-, CTS1582-, FGC8000-, PF3163-, FGC1899-, F2982-, PF1428-, F3748-, CTS4466-, CTS5990-, CTS8327-, M182-, L591-, F279-, A813-, CTS9952-, P230-, PF5718-, CTS4065-, FGC591+, F1598-, CTS7229-, P194-, V158-, CTS7638-, V59+, CTS5296-, CTS10355-, Z16900+, F305-, F1626-, FGC10481-, PF288-, M197-, BY204-, M176-, CTS7970-, P91+, s3-, CTS11985-, F3207-, L511-, FGC22193-, CTS2498-, F1030-, CTS6354-, Z16896-, CTS3073-, F2086-, A43-, M3430-, PF3314-, P160+, V181-, FGC20762+, FGC572-, N5-, Z17425-, M212-, F3356-, CTS2214-, CTS6854-, FGC1863-, M5539+, L1336-, A415-, L1361-, L493-, F2108-, CTS9548-, M272-, F4052-, F1782-, CTS10312-, F659-, F2494-, PF6848-, CTS10651-, PF835+, CTS8951-, Z1890+, F343-, FGC18148+, F2786-, BY437+, F858-, CTS890-, M3191-, V154-, CTS6090-, F1870-, FGC1872-, CTS8545-, Z36-, MC16-, CTS3394-, F748-, Z709-, F2468-, BY233+, Z21268-, PF3922-, CTS9219-, L449-, PF1030+, L194-, Z220-, Y1126-, PF1358-, CTS3906-, PF4585-, CTS7931-, Z1513-, PF3255+, Z17825-, Z19221-, Y2060-, Y4353-, Z6582-, Y2094-, Z16846-, Y1992-, Z6589-, Y2084-, FGC18100-, ZS1850-, Z18079-, Z7648-, Y5063+, S7541-, S7535-, S18546-, FGC17438+, Z17673-, Y7357-, Y3137-, Z16363-, Z16364-, Y2200-, Z16390+, YSC0000043-, Y1972-, SK2140-, Y2102-, Y1996-, Y3134+, S301+, Z17498-, Y2134+, Z3400-, Y2050-, FGC5612-, L839-, Z7171-, PF3261+, Z16933-, SK1109-, Z16419-, YP276-, F1743-, Y2061-, Y7075-, F1029-, Y4349-, Z17400-, YSC0000049-, SK1266-, Z16420+, S20284-, S18959-, Z3512-, Z17380-, CTS1243-, Z6571-, Y5975-, Z18123-, PF3567-, Y1987-, Z4374-, M438-, Z12222-, Y2197-, PF3323-, Y2148-, Y3265-, S25566-, Y5076-, Z6566+, Z6586+, S5199-, Z16330+, SK1107+, Z6279-, FGC17442-, S6901-, Z17894+, Y3133-, Z16428-, Z17867-, Y3558-, Z6592-, Y2208-, Z16422+, PF2994-, PF4580-, Y2147-, Y2080-, Z6590-, FGC11802-, S23720+, Z3511-, Y2051-, FGC17443-, PF1370-, FGC5597-, Z3038-, S309-, Y2053-, Y5069-, S14469-, Z22209+, PF3042-, S14640-, Y6451-, Y5058-, Z16327+, Z17981-, Z6585+, Z16832-, Z6715-, Y7354-, Z17862-, Z6199-, Y4665-, S20021-, Y2146-, S11985-, Y2012-, Y7352-, Z20163-, Z17822-, Z3258+, Y2137-, L878-, S25821-, Y2132-, Z16388-, S588-, Y4010+, YP281-, Z6557-, Y2073-, Y5075-, Y5065-, S15820-, Z3025+, Z6319-, L942-, Z6584-, YP275-, PF1434-, S22095-, S427-, Z4952-, Z16369-, Z17480-, PF2886-, Z7169-, PF4579-, Y6455-, Z17900+, Z17863-, FGC5598-, YP278-, Z16932+, Y2091-, Y5077-, S23993-, Z6578-, Y2138-, Y1988-, Y3135-, Y2085-, Z17866-, Z6562-, Z16424-, Y4750+, Y6459-, Z16502+, Y2067-, Z6491-, PF4588-, Z6686+, Y1986-, Y5657+, Z16934+, Y3462-, Z17901+, Y5322+, Z16343-, Z16426-, Y4915+, Y2129-, Y4926+, FGC17445-, Z16942+, Y3962-, Y6954-, Y7356-, PF2969-, BY60-, YP204-, PF4845-, Z16423-, Z18786-, Z6553-, Z6042-, FGC17441+, Z6713-, Z16775-, Y6462-, Z16500+, Z17417-, Z6738-, Y3159-, YP330-, Y6460-, Z17398+, Y4752-, Y3465-, Z17371+, Z3381-, L940+, PF6217-, Y3001+, Z16504+, Z6569-, S22684-, PT1-, Z3033-, S7753-, Z17865-, S20321+, Z17899+, S25516-, Y5332-, CTS15-, S22146-, YSC0000053-, Y2124+, Z16930-, Z6574-, FGC15178-, Y3713-, Z16514-, S16504-, Z17823+, S424-, Z16975-, PF6578-, FGC19599+, Z17895+, Z13851-, Z13062-, Y2370-, Y2224-, S2361-, Z17620-, Z6534+, FGC17444-, FGC5594-, Z6593-, Y2086-, Y2092-, F2174-, Z16983+, Z6556-, Z6901-, S3057-, Z3332+, Z6570+, S658-, Z16365-, Z16385-, Z7822+, Y2720-, Z6576-, S660+, Z17510+, Z3312-, Y1771-, FGC17433-, S308-, Y347-, Y4171-, Y3657-, Z3445-, Z6779-, Z14667-, Y2357-, Z3215+, Z6522+


10834

Emir
08-08-2016, 07:45 PM
If you send your blood sample to three different labs then you would get the same results for your blood type irrespective of who owns the lab but in this case, where the vendors (FTDNA/Geongraphic) test your DNA and claim to provide your correct haplogroup - they fall short of accuracy and quality control and this was the entire purpose of this thread. My DNA results are a living proof of it. Every time FTDNA/Genographic assignmed me a new haplogroup, I was manually able to find a discrepancy and brought to their attention and as I said " they acknowledged the error " and assigned me new one ...and even in the new one I picked another discrepancy ( basically lacking the basal SNPs). How could this be unfounded or coincidental? FTDNA/Genographic making the same mistake multiple times? I have emails from both the vendors acknowledging the discrepancy!

I am in process of reviewing my Y DNA assigned from 23andme and already in correspondence with them. They are looking in to my case and as soon as I get an update, I will share .

If I were you, I'd set up a thread to complain about 23andme and their imprecise haplogroup assignment! ArmandoR1b seems right on the ball "H-M69 is highly likely to be his terminal SNP even though they told him his terminal SNP was F."

jatt2016
08-08-2016, 09:57 PM
If I were you, I'd set up a thread to complain about 23andme and their imprecise haplogroup assignment! ArmandoR1b seems right on the ball "H-M69 is highly likely to be his terminal SNP even though they told him his terminal SNP was F."

Can you formulate one ? and will post it for you. As I always say " patience is a virtue ". I have requested them for a review. I will wait for a reply from 23andme first . I do not believe in preemptive complains. In the meantime , you can keep your fingers crossed and please note that this thread has nothing to do with ahlulbayt.

miiser
08-08-2016, 10:44 PM
Right, but the first version of Geno didn't have so many false positives as Geno 2.0 and the Geno 2.0 test only transfers positives to FTDNA but they also transfer a CSV file. I figured out how to convert the SNPs to positives and negatives from his Geno 2.0 CVS file to a spreadsheet then I converted that back into a comma separated file. He does have some false negatives in the CT portion of his upstream SNPs but it does show him H-M69 positive. H-P266 is also positive but it is currently listed as unreliable by ISOGG. He gets the same results for those SNPs at 23andme so we know from the 23andme test the H-M69 is highly likely to be his terminal SNP even though they told him his terminal SNP was F.


Every chip of this size is going to have some SNPs that don't work properly, giving both false positives and false negatives. There needs to be a verification process to establish which reads are legitimate and which are garbage. And then you just ignore (don't report to the customer) any SNPs that don't give reliable results. My impression, based on this thread and other comments I've seen elsewhere, is that this new chip was rushed to market without going through any such verification process. They are essentially doing open beta testing to figure out which SNPs need to be filtered out and thrown away.

jatt2016
08-08-2016, 11:15 PM
After repeated contacts with both parties concerned, I'm pointing at both. All these testing companies when designing their chips work within current technology and cost per unit. They choose their populations groups, outliers are tossed and low and behold you have the 'Compromise Chip' with all it's shortcomings.

These companies need to match their PR to their marketing efforts.

Like any new industry growing pains are to be expected. We are the test pilots and bumps in the road are to be expected. As more competition appears, innovation as well as accuracy and cost saving should follow.


You also fail to mention that BigY costs hundreds of dollars more and tests only a single thing and uses next gen testing. Why do you keep comparing it to all-purpose chips?

You seem to think Geno can not do a single thing correct ever and that FTDNA has zero problems of their own ever (then how come they had so many bugs in FamilyFinder they took months to get any matches to appear at all? granted they did take me of me well in the end).

Yes, some annoying things with Geno 2.0 NG test such as poor sampling for V mtDNA and not really all that much results for most compared to the old test and they did over sell the upgrade potential for haplogroups. And yeah for some they have even made errors (although even more often the haplo errors were on FTDNA transfer but not also on original site, although that has happened too).

But the way you hate on them 100% seems a bit over the top. Did they kick your dog?


The answer to why predictors fail is likely this code string. You are only providing the positive variants tested, so Morley algorithm doesn't know the negative status at critical branch points. All that it can do is attempt to provide a best fit based on the positives. Without knowing exactly what test revision a person took, it's impossible to impute this.

When the algorithms are provided with negatives, they can penalize the scores or use a decision tree algorithm. Even then the machine won't always be 100% correct due to possibility of multiple back mutations.


Right, but the first version of Geno didn't have so many false positives as Geno 2.0 and the Geno 2.0 test only transfers positives to FTDNA but they also transfer a CSV file. I figured out how to convert the SNPs to positives and negatives from his Geno 2.0 CVS file to a spreadsheet then I converted that back into a comma separated file. He does have some false negatives in the CT portion of his upstream SNPs but it does show him H-M69 positive. H-P266 is also positive but it is currently listed as unreliable by ISOGG. He gets the same results for those SNPs at 23andme so we know from the 23andme test the H-M69 is highly likely to be his terminal SNP even though they told him his terminal SNP was F.


L183-, Z16922-, BY2237+, CTS9909-, FGC5129-, L47-, U1-, F788+, CTS7776-, M2783+, Y1040-, A573-, Z17428-, P310-, FGC13505-, M4-, F3863-, CTS11846-, F2179-, Z378-, FGC1827-, PF4573+, P233-, F2527-, FGC20796-, CTS231-, F3451-, F302-, F1839-, F1776-, Z2956-, P72-, CTS6010-, PF5564-, SK1115-, A431-, F2338-, FGC1874-, Y4174-, M3162-, CTS2278-, FGC7652-, F1756-, F276-, Z17459-, F988-, FGC3252+, Z2057-, CTS8064-, BY754-, PK1-, L40-, V16-, F633-, F2044-, PF3233-, s5490+, CTS6410-, Z17416-, F2732-, L1069-, M89+, L577-, M327-, L1317-, F1120-, Z381-, CTS8034-, A892-, PF4533-, PF167+, L700-, F672-, CTS484-, S12460-, CTS11087-, CTS4349-, BY690-, P192-, FGC7543-, F4111+, F422-, M513-, Y1129-, YP414-, A1236-, YP335-, V149-, FGC1861-, CTS10511-, F1262-, CTS6483-, BY22-, Z15512-, FGC2-, L855-, F2753+, F1249-, FGC4314-, F1259-, BY182-, PF3231-, CTS6909-, M58-, L782+, Y2799-, L1323-, L476-, L636+, F856-, L660-, Z282-, CTS3729-, F701-, PF3122-, P95-, CTS4414-, F650-, Z17461-, BY1626-, Z951-, M3132-, S22470-, PF3297-, FGC14887+, FGC19437-, PF876+, PF4592+, F2182-, CTS9044-, F1690-, M143-, F2320-, Z2197-, M4254-, CTS6245-, PF5804-, S17698-, F1217-, L54-, V191-, A885-, CTS11522-, A541-, F2067-, A911-, BY2475-, Z22-, F1505-, M68-, PF5519-, FGC9784-, YP733-, F2890-, CTS101-, Y1123-, Z733-, CTS2174-, CTS11968-, CTS7017-, F3656-, PF3022-, L609-, F3110-, P28-, F1497-, Y1122+, L483-, L650-, CTS6704+, L804-, F471-, M3153-, Z319-, CTS5375-, F787-, L833-, Z2534-, F4124-, PF4589+, Z7706-, BY417-, s1812-, Z16377-, BY1703-, F2719-, F2428-, M172-, F1252-, L53-, P122-, CTS2820-, CTS5282-, F2656-, F3868-, FGC5151-, PF7263-, CTS1858-, F2035-, Z87-, M406-, CTS6266-, L517-, F3270+, F3827-, CTS8125-, Z17456-, L1257-, M146-, Z16432-, L807-, F1928-, F3447-, Z73-, PF5197-, F919-, F3859-, P148+, CTS701-, F2903-, Z3208+, CTS1936-, PF5721-, M177-, A571-, CTS11954-, F789-, P327-, PF2836-, CTS8715-, L43-, CTS1171-, L16-, PF4189-, Z16535-, A356+, CTS7357-, L425-, M3125-, CTS3658-, Z75-, F1633-, F2061-, Z3002-, L551-, Z916-, V227+, CTS5981-, CTS5794-, L659-, CTS11228-, PF3420-, FGC11413-, PF4535-, F1295-, Z3419-, FGC5656-, Z912-, F3182-, CTS9915-, Y3556-, PF229+, P59+, Y3557-, Z74-, Z330-, FGC1929-, CTS9333-, CTS9805-, F84-, CTS2298-, N2-, FGC11809+, P78-, V90+, Z16332-, PF914+, S8368-, Z17444-, Z920-, CTS302-, CTS722-, PK2-, L14-, S12035-, F4181-, M35.1-, CTS2611-, F2214-, Z1-, PF4567-, L38-, M62-, L241-, FGC4603-, Z44-, L603-, M16-, M3168-, L440+, V32-, L663-, FGC12643-, CTS3368-, F2937-, FGC3221-, Z17692-, CTS1868-, F3353-, FGC12145-, L4-, PF1917-, L420-, CTS2297-, FGC1769-, FGC5589-, CTS10641-, A411-, CTS11032-, CTS8143-, CTS11988-, CTS4264-, PF1252-, BY2209-, YP742-, CTS5463-, Z202-, F3452-, CTS11569-, P141+, F1673-, Z201-, FGC5170-, FGC3236-, F3797-, PF5842-, M63-, S20753-, CTS11133-, PF2506-, M69+, PF3120-, M105-, PF6498-, F1319-, CTS52-, F3103-, CTS4276-, P151+, F2974-, CTS48-, Z2245-, CTS11440-, FGC5642+, F2181-, CTS11876-, CTS6581-, CTS6889-, F2094-, s854-, PF1919-, U152-, CTS5964-, CTS1774-, V67-, PF5683-, CTS10145-, CTS5913-, CTS7768-, P225-, Z17457-, CTS1853-, FGC20767-, CTS6942-, F440-, FGC8077-, CTS11043-, BY224-, Z17282-, S14328-, S11699-, F3092+, F725-, PF2893-, CTS11544-, SK568-, CTS11436-, M107-, M8-, Z8193-, Z16522+, FGC20563-, CTS9039-, S11475-, FGC1840+, BY928-, Z1853-, F3053-, CTS218-, M171+, Y1039-, PF899+, PF6850-, L275-, CTS12966-, Z16841+, FGC1809-, FGC20568-, CTS9096-, M253-, S23409-, F386+, L299-, V85-, CTS9341-, P256-, PF15+, F624-, CTS2413-, F3072-, A48-, F1481-, F1992-, F130-, Z18101-, Z375-, F2371+, F1830-, CTS8754-, DF81-, F972-, M33-, CTS8579-, M1776-, CTS677-, FGC12768-, P238-, FGC23390-, s7898-, CTS6531-, S2606-, F2360-, Z348-, CTS5941-, CTS12024-, L665-, Y5122-, PF4515-, M137-, F2869-, Z17433+, Z60-, M101-, M3177-, Z384-, PF3337-, F1863-, CTS3655-, FGC9804-, V168+, F2236+, F4312-, Z16274-, CTS3578-, F4325-, F155-, F3084-, F61-, PF3177-, PF3330-, Z234-, L401-, PF5779-, Y6693-, S17999+, S21184-, A427+, PF3221-, M149-, CTS7759-, F4236-, F3895-, CTS11787-, BY202-, CTS10893-, BY1573-, F315-, Y6060-, PF825-, FGC14133-, F3954-, F4017-, CTS9322+, F36-, Y5360-, M377-, CTS6353-, M51-, F1860-, F1136+, F2188-, FGC12187-, CTS5690-, F2010-, CTS11741-, L679-, F2530-, CTS1228-, BY709-, L130-, L717-, F3318-, M127-, F2861-, F381-, M192-, CTS9996-, Z744-, PF3394-, CTS1779-, CTS5933+, L179-, CTS4617-, PF5705-, FGC597-, Z16266-, CTS11746-, CTS3573-, L681+, CTS245-, CTS11969-, Z639-, F3220-, L96-, CTS424-, P135+, F1594-, Z268-, F256-, Z17458-, P291-, FGC11904-, BY20-, PF2549-, CTS8300+, CTS2255-, Z17472-, Z4082+, F2356-, L238-, BY2183-, L286-, Z18140-, F4249-, V183-, L48-, F1898-, L271-, F728-, Y1092-, L817+, F159-, PF2287-, CTS10682-, PF1072+, P100-, CTS9336-, A250+, F1829-, Z15460-, BY2023+, M339-, V189+, Z514-, Z57-, CTS3636-, FGC1830-, M201-, BY354-, U290-, CTS6753-, Z16520+, CTS730+, F3967-, CTS7538-, F3046-, YP263-, F3972-, L633-, PF2824-, F371+, PF3049-, A25-, V232-, L94-, FGC1723-, L232-, L667-, Y5134+, L525-, PF3278-, Z81-, L45-, A95-, F2504-, F133-, L446-, CTS321-, L56-, F2641-, Z15517-, F563-, F1680-, L332-, M47-, FGC5632+, L334-, F2685-, Z7-, Z15511-, S673-, Y5131+, Z16511-, F3309-, P70-, L460-, Z17485-, CTS682-, CTS3393-, FGC6564-, CTS1633-, FGC16362+, CTS9678-, Z26917-, Z18133-, CTS4185-, BY69-, F2934-, F1734-, P3-, S1774-, F1912-, F2139-, Z907-, CTS10656-, CTS5447-, Z16290-, S6631-, Z16245-, CTS6630-, L805-, P98-, PF5695-, FGC9786-, Z18128-, A4-, Z17677-, F4035-, CTS5804-, P221-, CTS4519-, PF3174-, F1803-, CTS8476-, L215-, A260-, Z154-, L714-, BY707-, CTS10108-, P171-, F3830-, P168-, F1343-, PF2263-, L80-, F2654+, U175-, Z2191-, M3354-, L264-, CTS5035-, A765-, F3739-, F1426-, F2137-, V83-, CTS10082-, M3338-, PF5844-, s11477-, DF85-, L708-, CTS5793-, S20905-, CTS4528-, Z240-, CTS4848-, L2-, ZS4682-, F3945-, CTS6433-, PF860+, M289-, F4119-, L617-, L166-, PF3118-, M153-, F3433-, A247-, Y368-, CTS3777-, FGC20756-, Z150-, L57-, FGC3253-, P102+, CTS4325-, F317-, L502-, F403-, Z786-, PF5723-, M3-, Z3489-, P232-, M88-, CTS4188-, CTS5487-, Z16527-, F2612-, FGC11345-, CTS2223-, CTS7268-, BY453-, Z827-, Z2069+, L662-, P159+, CTS10495-, L594-, F3022-, F3085-, FGC7-, F2180-, Z16689+, PF1097-, A430-, CTS684-, Z2970-, CTS2387-, F1150-, CTS9122-, L813-, FGC4166+, S5284-, FGC607-, F3311-, Z16921-, PF4520-, FGC12307-, L46-, Z16540-, CTS8486-, CTS7187-, CTS12949-, Y6067-, F3169-, F3402-, YSC0000261-, CTS860+, Z30-, CTS3221-, L709-, CTS8742-, F1918-, F3513-, FGC1754-, F3348-, Y1117-, M3145-, CTS11352-, F1236-, V215-, PF1031-, Z38-, CTS3087-, Z15478+, CTS2762-, F2434-, Z328-, PF3931-, FGC5590-, CTS3380-, Z12005-, P127-, A903-, L335-, M49-, F3810-, Z11917-, CTS10321-, L557+, M2823-, Z3965-, CTS6492-, Z16889+, F1694-, F235-, F4267-, BY2401-, CTS2362-, CTS11970+, P215-, PK3-, PF5531-, CTS1780-, PF5732-, CTS610-, V222-, CTS1139-, Z17979+, L190-, V93-, P55-, L1286-, M353-, L674-, L1239-, V75-, Y1056-, S6687-, CTS8531-, CTS6397-, CTS12004-, S7402-, CTS6211-, CTS4658-, P196-, FGC1933-, M9006+, L100-, PF1864-, Z17559-, Z16268+, CTS8949-, CTS11085-, M3175-, L847-, CTS4866-, BY563-, Z17447+, CTS11732-, CTS462-, Z15467-, P57-, F45-, PF5143-, Y2905-, CTS2609-, F2121-, CTS11149-, PF3222-, A900-, CTS5313-, CTS10568-, M5533-, V22-, PR4859-, FGC5124+, PF208+, F313-, M9228-, L144-, Z16902-, Z16533-, F3342-, M378-, CTS1451-, L723-, s6000+, F3955-, PF5535-, Z17423-, PF3339-, Z17449-, F2572-, CTS11984-, FGC1879-, CTS8746-, BY685+, FGC8579-, YP270-, F3776-, L429-, F1316-, M3427-, CTS6489-, Z16532-, PF2883-, L23-, Z72-, BY743-, F2795-, BY2184-, S730-, M115-, L1452-, CTS3576-, FGC7538+, P128-, L626-, L260-, BY251-, M3293-, Y1055-, A227-, CTS8450-, CTS10712-, PF3649-, Z17479-, P129-, Z16534-, FGC624+, CTS11025-, F242-, M9210+, CTS8880-, F498-, s780-, CTS11086-, CTS4793-, M3129-, P58-, BY567-, PF1044+, Z2988-, PF3304-, CTS3767-, PF4838-, L196-, F2522-, Z16513-, FGC606+, L931-, F138-, CTS140-, PF3417-, CTS1404-, CTS2514-, F1406-, PF3881-, M334-, CTS9737-, S16017-, Z948-, P186-, DF94-, PF3170-, CTS11581-, CTS5942-, CTS8974-, L649-, F3735+, P153-, L715-, S690-, CTS5393-, PF5522-, Z12004-, FGC22157-, DF88-, F3806+, F2680-, Z862-, CTS1366-, S11515-, BY2378-, FGC20748-, PF3306-, M65-, CTS2643-, FGC14881-, F1686-, CTS3384-, F2317-, S25234-, M19-, CTS11874-, F2873+, BY2156-, M9111+, F3062-, CTS11130-, P172-, M258-, Y2056-, U198-, FGC14124+, V79+, Z1900-, CTS5606-, CTS4549-, CTS606-, CTS7430-, F2016-, BY1545-, PF5532-, DF106-, V28-, L796-, FGC5158+, CTS11382-, Z16355-, F3121-, CTS10851-, CTS3402-, Z16717-, L441-, P56-, CTS11839-, L1287-, PF1361-, CTS10449-, L583-, Z15469-, CTS4916-, F1329+, BY713-, L533+, F1349-, PF235-, FGC12993-, CTS11729-, L257-, L474-, PF4593-, Z212-, CTS11831-, F2840-, FGC9777-, Y5133-, M3208+, F2104-, Z218-, F3923-, CTS5492-, FGC904-, F2022-, FGC5641-, Z325-, BY1250-, L424-, CTS1897-, L419-, CTS5489-, M288+, A493+, CTS9158-, P269+, Z791-, L92-, Z16450+, FGC22225-, M44-, CTS5607-, BY2227-, CTS10008-, CTS6838-, PF1027+, CTS8723+, V29+, Z749-, F873-, M37-, F2213-, K30-, FGC23404-, S1121-, F1060-, CTS6378-, L213-, CTS10240-, PF328-, M191-, CTS8239-, PF5516-, CTS1933-, L579-, F2928-, P204-, CTS8458-, F479-, F4066-, L837-, P61-, CTS709-, CTS7655-, BY721-, M410-, CTS713-, Z16536-, F240-, M3215-, S23981-, FGC13415-, P198-, M1773-, F4040-, CTS7275+, Z16918-, Y1086-, BY433-, Z17468-, Z20656-, F884-, L51-, L453-, F2923-, PF6837-, CTS7453-, PF162+, V199-, Z35-, CTS6916-, P99-, F18-, F1877-, FGC626-, FGC1918-, F1513-, Z344-, Z307-, L570-, Z221-, CTS7789-, L1414-, CTS1652-, F152-, S756-, CTS4021-, FGC3265-, F2301-, CTS10147+, s850+, F549-, PF3924-, F434-, CTS4472-, L459-, F2357-, FGC20571+, CTS220-, M97-, CTS9050-, FGC5609+, Z16671-, BY1223+, Z16323-, F2839-, M448-, CTS574-, CTS6906-, Y1038+, CTS10531-, P298-, F2029-, FGC5127-, M198-, A34-, CTS5314-, L793-, YP445-, F310-, FGC1878-, FGC1855-, CTS11796-, CTS1303-, BY1388-, F3323-, F1273-, M3179-, BY2222-, Z276-, CTS579-, L164-, F3137-, P115-, PF3287-, F826-, F377-, CTS350-, L365-, CTS946-, Z334-, F3755-, L792-, CTS11955-, CTS7824-, F494-, M195-, F4161-, Y1108-, F1553-, S778-, Z287-, F2941-, L297-, F1974-, Z4093-, CTS6908-, Y1051-, F3847-, CTS8890-, CTS3641-, M102-, PF1904-, CTS11058-, PF3331-, U186-, CTS11750-, CTS1994-, CTS7540-, PF210+, V19-, F3779-, YP314-, CTS11737-, F2726-, BY2391-, BY764-, M179-, F3371-, PF3070-, PF5517-, M56-, FGC7534-, F1920-, F1758-, V174+, M240-, BY17-, P277-, A896-, F4064-, Z18491-, L330-, F3607-, F2028-, V94+, CTS7870-, M224-, CTS2518-, CTS7951-, L702-, L1093+, M86-, A159-, F2848-, A905-, Y1121-, CTS562-, PF3898-, F2332+, L226-, BY794-, Z16275-, F1675-, PF287+, Z17653-, F341-, M280-, FGC1599+, M94+, F3229-, F71-, F2189-, FGC4133-, CTS6-, DF25-, Z2993-, PF4341-, Z16925-, CTS5351-, L816-, CTS2734-, Y367-, CTS1982-, BY2146-, F4163-, CTS2457-, YP737-, CTS6000-, F1290-, FGC1810-, Z18808-, FGC14890+, M251+, F3327-, PF7457-, Z138-, L803-, M8951+, CTS1977-, F3039-, P80-, M200-, M178-, CTS11990-, Z49-, L78-, F3850-, F3177-, CTS8230-, CTS10113-, L1324+, CTS10330-, F818-, CTS9193-, CTS4803-, M9296-, U181-, F2576-, A1237-, YP416-, BY1610-, F114-, CTS3771-, M157.1-, A893-, F2975-, P79-, L704-, A726-, CTS1011-, F3785-, CTS3974-, A212-, P237-, PF4506-, F971-, V66-, M283-, Z16672-, V219-, P202+, Z944-, BY223+, BY1630+, PF2818-, F323-, Z28-, CTS689-, M3192-, Z12-, L339-, M286-, CTS12583-, CTS595-, F1344-, CTS3543+, PF2901-, PF4252-, Z2984-, CTS7306-, CTS9894+, CTS10100-, Z16859-, P169-, F1685-, CTS2074-, M9119+, CTS11267-, M52-, F2528-, L673-, A45-, L284-, L733-, L651-, F429-, L20-, ZP44-, F3516-, CTS4305-, PF3066-, A92-, CTS4209+, BY1933-, BY203-, F3547-, CTS5934-, M45-, CTS892-, P123-, CTS3105-, DF96-, F4195-, S1122-, CTS4115-, BY673-, FGC1813-, BY2206-, F3243-, P40+, Z3353+, F3133-, CTS5687-, Z269-, L472-, F879-, CTS3431+, L784-, CTS10320-, DF19-, M165-, Z16837+, L1-, P96-, CTS12074-, F427-, Z15462-, Z16354-, F3070-, Y1074-, F435-, F1127+, CTS219-, FGC12159-, F3834-, PF3299-, F1452-, M229-, PF4523-, L682-, Z15554-, Z16348-, Z17089-, CTS1701-, Z51-, FGC11394-, FGC5079-, Z736-, FGC17608-, F3795-, L17-, FGC9778-, PF5795-, FGC17307-, F3217-, Z17504-, Z17644-, Z351-, F2962-, F1276-, CTS6503-, Z12070-, CTS3517-, Z950-, P262-, Z17272-, M207-, F1096+, BY2225-, A151-, Z12071+, CTS8236-, Z16278-, PF3934-, M3413-, Z11895-, CTS5284-, S7190+, CTS6236-, F499-, CTS203-, F2505-, Y6064+, M1154-, PF5236-, L126-, M1745-, CTS9484-, CTS5406-, Z26720-, S25542-, F3971-, CTS4931-, L421-, P109-, PF3155-, CTS11232-, F2125-, U106-, FGC615-, M461-, P144-, M5790-, M214-, F1754-, M76-, M387-, F247-, V20-, M185-, FGC5939-, F923-, CTS3444-, Z270-, Z16694-, F438-, F2515-, FGC5173-, BY149-, CTS7683-, Z17418+, CTS6788-, Y1046-, FGC12433-, FGC17162-, M9152+, F986-, L181-, PF3447-, PF671-, BY917-, BY573+, CTS11227-, Z336-, Z1842+, L300-, CTS10298-, FGC623+, M5571-, FGC20761-, F2415-, F3338-, SK1914-, Y1113+, P266+, S11571-, Y1103-, P29-, F4015-, CTS9995-, F273-, CTS4066-, L187-, Z245-, CTS9003-, Z4095-, F1108-, Z3200+, Z15468-, CTS4960-, CTS7642-, CTS6670-, F271-, F1234-, CTS4179-, CTS5409-, PF7228-, CTS3385-, V225-, F1823-, CTS5726-, L625+, CTS2893-, L427-, PF232+, CTS10713-, F746-, FGC754-, CTS5602-, F3625+, Z21254-, FGC5585-, M420-, F823-, F2633-, BY564-, Z2962-, CTS4304-, L229-, F108-, Z17564-, V201-, L812-, F1780-, Z335-, F1990-, PF4558-, Z16891-, A815-, PF732+, Z17973-, F2183-, FGC14129-, F3774-, CTS10824-, M148-, M423-, F1100-, A90-, Z29-, Z917-, L428-, V63-, F2853-, M274-, FGC17168+, L846-, CTS1186-, FGC14729+, FGC11252-, F940-, F1214-, BY718+, Z1936-, PF3386-, Z140-, F646+, L1498-, CTS2215-, F742-, CTS6457-, BY269-, F2480+, S11611+, CTS5504-, F1399-, YSC0000224-, F140-, P289+, U2-, Z16352-, L21-, P268+, F2211-, Z1935-, L790-, F984-, Z3428-, CTS6068-, M5-, L801-, CTS2955-, Z4091-, F3419-, Z16701-, M202-, FGC11379-, CTS5383-, M83-, CTS6452-, Z1568-, F2887-, FGC23397-, F620-, ZS4604+, Z190-, FGC9788-, Z17440-, F54-, M3194+, PF3485-, L905-, Z16917-, Z12001+, CTS9440-, L448-, L808-, CTS4364+, PF7443-, F2924-, Z278-, PF5583-, Z949-, M14-, V14-, L542-, S11510-, CTS3808-, Z847-, M189-, M31-, PF3816-, M458-, Y1125-, CTS3386-, V250+, CTS11723-, PF5567-, FGC5608-, L52-, CTS12654-, U174-, CTS10639-, CTS8032-, CTS34-, PF3303-, P295-, YP736-, CTS3271-, F713-, FGC7156-, M3351-, CTS6073-, F3981-, FGC1871-, F3390-, CTS9106-, L137-, M3905-, F4092-, CTS2851-, PF5693-, CTS5946-, CTS6428-, S5668-, FGC1770-, P39-, FGC20750-, ZS4601+, F3921-, F2364-, CTS5145-, V21+, Z11-, CTS3487-, P166+, Z2567-, CTS4285-, CTS9291-, M267-, L818-, L201-, M3355-, L237-, F3067-, L497-, S23032-, CTS4187-, M514-, F2079-, Y5525-, P173-, L39-, DF109+, F2333-, F417-, F3579-, FGC13498-, L795-, L475-, BY710-, PF3379-, M9083-, Z17475-, F1924+, CTS4239-, F1728-, F717-, F1672-, PF1363-, V4-, L295-, L637-, Z2183-, PF5823-, CTS7611+, CTS12472-, PF1269-, CTS10234-, DF23-, CTS9380-, FGC919-, P164-, F3099-, Z4073-, CTS2187-, Z329-, F3836-, CTS9539+, P321-, CTS6239-, F478-, Z1884-, PF3310-, P30-, F492+, CTS2006-, DF21-, M9180+, Z17482-, CTS2506-, FGC5185+, FGC1847-, PF5524-, s856-, Z756-, ZS4597+, BY1375-, F2946-, PF7445-, M3434-, Z1300-, CTS230-, PF6865-, L580-, F1340-, L456-, L629-, Z17281-, Z17429+, F2524-, FGC1832-, CTS6149-, CTS11004-, CTS3763-, FGC11808-, CTS10935-, V216+, CTS11441-, F2631-, M3216+, PF3342-, CTS5658-, F1411-, F4164-, CTS9533-, M247-, Z15463-, F2083-, Z15475-, PF3892-, F634-, CTS6837-, P54-, Z15550+, CTS4092-, P82-, CTS7912-, CTS511-, Z3494+, FGC4108-, F1905-, Z17657+, P136+, Z16842+, CTS1215-, BY930-, CTS7662-, F2643-, F3737-, Z16702-, F2427-, S1120-, CTS7136-, Z198-, PF1801-, CTS3802+, P317-, YSC0000075-, CTS11843-, CTS6063+, Y4706-, FGC5628+, BY132-, F1478-, F1707-, FGC11915-, V164-, FGC23395-, F2683-, Z730-, M357-, PF1045+, PF4576+, FGC930-, PF3168-, F4032-, F1813+, FGC1027-, P121-, F4006-, F2244-, F2771-, BY2171+, FGC1845-, P84+, CTS8963-, Z17434+, L1308-, S15280-, CTS10560-, F265-, F1914-, PF2021-, M521-, BY136+, CTS827-, M59-, F17-, F1033-, Y7477-, F3669-, CTS12867-, S15510-, F4020-, V102-, L1327-, CTS4336-, S11695+, M3292-, CTS4268-, Z11896+, FGC24646+, F3505-, CTS1843-, F2131-, CTS10475-, A1239-, M163-, N4+, F3120-, A81+, F2208+, Z1941-, F2351-, P328-, M428-, CTS2860-, Z305-, F2122-, FGC622-, F2018+, CTS3872-, CTS10674-, CTS6957-, PF3181-, CTS3837-, F115-, M347-, F908-, P113-, CTS9325+, F3844-, L496-, PF3293-, L296-, s857-, L1237-, PF3073-, L167-, BY2284-, PF1442-, CTS11207-, FGC11903-, PF3175-, F430-, L601-, Y1101-, Z143-, Y6952+, FGC20752-, F1977-, L568-, M3377-, PF1531-, FGC23402-, L562-, F2454-, F2469-, CTS6231-, Y5748-, CTS3648-, M223-, BY2347-, PF3315-, L258-, Z63-, CTS10497-, L892-, P108+, F3922-, Y1094-, CTS3562-, F373-, F4300-, s4634+, PF5586-, M34-, F1353-, L592-, PF4202-, ZW09-, F1836-, V151-, M322-, FGC11244-, F1422-, PF5686-, CTS6303-, Z17817-, M2339-, CTS10923-, Y1041-, FGC13408-, CTS6325-, SK565-, P314-, L371-, FGC20769-, F1770-, F2270-, CTS11071+, PF5390-, CTS10044-, PF3286-, PF6652-, BY2147-, F238-, F1239-, Z710-, M151-, Y4496-, Z80-, F2817-, CTS750-, F1213-, F3613-, P4-, M103-, CTS3717-, CTS2549-, F1095-, F3686-, CTS5529-, L329-, CTS3505-, IMS-JST021355-, Z17414-, A902-, FGC17305-, Z17599-, s744-, FGC23403+, PF5806-, CTS4198-, M2775+, Y1124-, Z17497-, CTS6803-, F1370-, CTS9860-, PF815+, CTS4523-, F414-, CTS12600-, PF5744-, L713-, M478-, Z3308-, F465-, CTS11844-, A46-, CTS5396-, F3291-, CTS11048-, CTS7667-, PF223+, F845-, L692-, CTS9439-, A173-, F1303-, CTS342-, F2212-, FGC11912-, Z16916+, BY2252+, S11759-, F3284-, M110-, F741+, s7536+, CTS12976+, S6915-, IMS-JST029149-, F1689-, V190-, CTS10894-, CTS5368-, MEH2-, CTS8380-, Z15494-, PF3147-, L516-, S786-, Z2535-, Z88-, PF5566-, BY147+, CTS6147-, L245-, CTS2509-, S23189+, CTS11474-, V148-, CTS3914-, L72-, BY128-, Z1501-, F614-, M87-, Z17483-, CTS5601-, FGC5607+, S7520-, A410-, Z39+, BY205-, F1367-, CTS9183-, F4286-, Z966-, FGC1869-, F1643-, F1066-, PF3661-, CTS693-, CTS9710-, CTS7556-, M1155-, CTS335-, F142-, CTS1313-, Z17651-, F1250-, V221+, L285-, PF1472-, L840+, M70-, ZP41-, CTS1800-, F3675-, CTS11979-, S1491+, F3289-, F2758-, Z17430-, CTS1208-, PF997-, Z921-, L854-, FGC2268-, M241-, PF4611-, Z15528-, Z17654-, CTS9083-, Z17403-, FGC617-, P15-, CTS11447-, F4173-, FGC1848-, PF6866-, CTS3045-, Z70-, A901-, BY2462-, CTS10359-, FGC10125-, S742-, CTS3301-, Z261-, F1251-, F3752-, L422-, P111-, FGC5646-, BY135-, CTS5175-, FGC1862-, CTS5458-, CTS9114-, PF5837-, Y1116-, CTS6891-, Y1077-, M222-, P47-, F1309-, CTS9251-, CTS5416-, F4171-, Z227-, CTS97+, F2746-, F1345-, L1280-, CTS1276+, PF672+, CTS10965-, F2143-, Z16521-, CTS11907+, PF1026-, PF889-, CTS3698-, Z327-, CTS77-, P259-, Z20559+, PF4888-, Z922-, Y1067-, CTS10540-, F3791-, Z467-, Z2973-, CTS7543-, PF679-, PF6841-, F2533-, F3985-, PF4560-, F1727-, Z16541+, M481-, FGC11237-, FGC602-, P5-, M156-, PF3043-, CTS8850-, M9135-, F1266-, CTS1792-, CTS10054-, YP350-, Y5123-, Z209-, CTS11824-, M3198-, F1293-, M9139+, PF1283-, PF7264-, F3937-, F1111-, PF1029+, L693-, PF5747-, Z1504+, ZP43-, PF3229-, FGC12306-, L906-, Z274-, FGC3262-, F2600+, Z17489-, Z2983+, F3647-, BY436-, F666-, L447-, Z3642-, L442+, FGC11378-, PF3803-, Z2195-, F2603-, F3223-, PF2546-, CTS2163-, L1403-, F1337-, A259-, FGC17297-, PF4505-, Z1297-, PF6858-, V25-, PF3312-, FGC3260-, S788-, CTS9506-, FGC1838-, CTS11549-, F2960-, PF5526-, F1134-, CTS736-, F1638-, L326-, CTS8419-, CTS10057-, F3119-, BY715+, FGC571+, Z2247-, F175-, F1699-, MC07-, F3897-, CTS483-, PF3098-, S18462-, CTS7285+, FGC11322-, CTS5009-, BY2362-, CTS5822-, F3769-, PR3654-, F402-, V229-, L1335-, A1238-, FGC14894-, FGC5584+, Y1049+, F796-, CTS753-, CTS1229-, A1240-, PF790-, Z19219-, BY2243-, S5246-, CTS8037-, P307-, M181-, Z263-, CTS8023-, Z1133-, CTS10937-, F525-, CTS10465-, L67-, Z16927-, Y7263-, F3525-, M161-, FGC5126-, PF3296-, PF2785-, CTS9957-, V15-, F2959-, F2767+, M211-, Z65-, F4079-, Y6691-, CTS9882-, S733-, CTS2941-, Z768-, PF7589-, CTS6621-, F1800-, CTS9984-, PF5593-, FGC8578-, CTS1293-, CTS12931-, Z17645-, L27-, S17911-, Z290-, MC02+, F2343-, CTS4475-, Z46-, Z6304-, Z21256-, Z2122-, F2789-, S4924-, CTS1068-, F3896-, F406-, Z159-, L369-, CTS12049-, CTS4272-, FGC1721+, F3055-, F1843-, L163-, F444-, CTS2548-, CTS11986-, FGC14132-, L184-, Z139-, CTS3309-, Z2963-, F3417-, Z11910+, F254-, Z17557-, Y1050-, L554-, Z207-, P212-, Z16409-, F2026-, F2055-, F3244-, F3455-, S860-, P42-, M72-, CTS4273-, F3381-, F452-, F3286-, A566-, M4291-, CTS3334-, CTS9011-, CTS278-, V78-, S1667-, PF5658-, M2565-, s743-, s769-, CTS2817-, P117+, CTS11109-, F201-, Z203-, CTS616-, Z726-, Z2105-, CTS6342-, BY807-, M3489+, CTS2201-, V187+, Y1127-, A906-, CTS11667-, L396-, BY2489-, Z2976+, Z52-, Z16711-, M93-, P132-, PF1279-, M434-, F4062-, CTS6217-, F2560-, PF4517-, F2599-, PF3893-, YP739+, PF3345-, YSC0000033-, PF5889-, L287-, BY1542+, P87-, BY1210-, CTS7239-, M160-, L22-, CTS7922+, A6-, CTS9351-, V86-, L162-, Z59-, Y1089-, F2455-, CTS7184-, F3351-, CTS6373-, CTS8339-, PF4587-, F1528-, CTS175-, CTS7399-, L664-, CTS1483-, CTS10534-, BY67-, BY2518-, Z21265-, PF3817-, CTS3471-, FGC12138-, Z15545-, BY65+, PF6852-, L243-, M242-, CTS7658-, F2510-, F2325-, F2545-, CTS4299-, BY2112-, CTS7270-, FGC4847-, F2877-, F2159-, L50-, M138-, F2832-, K29-, F3825-, CTS11388-, P201-, SK1247+, F3252-, F2266-, M25-, Z3292-, YP569-, F2582-, PF3301-, CTS4622-, FGC1826-, Z347-, CTS10341-, CTS10723+, CTS10344-, FGC1751-, S1306-, P104-, F2868-, Z16858-, L552-, Z17427-, CTS7325-, CTS7620-, CTS4521-, F837+, PF1015-, CTS3664-, L639-, F2766-, PF3668-, Z806-, F412-, PF6587-, F2915-, PF7563-, CTS11744-, F844-, BY2337+, CTS10442-, CTS9190-, M318-, M169-, L7-, L556+, CTS11785-, F3393-, PF2890-, Z2961-, F593-, L90-, P218-, PF5791-, F579-, BY986+, PF7453-, MC14+, F745-, CTS8189-, A256-, PF3440-, CTS6230-, Z15507-, S22015-, Z149-, Z17296-, PK4-, PF5366-, CTS211-, F736+, F3777-, Z15534+, PF1368+, S1253-, F1975-, S25201-, CTS2157-, PF5160-, A494-, PF110+, DC27+, L99+, S17250-, F316-, F2617-, Z16685-, M427-, YSC0000234-, PF948+, F1693-, M9257+, F2109-, L1373-, CTS6504-, P131-, CTS8386-, BY2360-, Z17275+, MC01-, FGC14605-, P75-, CTS4158-, L503+, CTS6725-, FGC23380-, F4328-, S1251-, CTS11871-, A499-, CTS417-, CTS4413-, M227-, S865-, CTS1595-, Z160-, FGC14937-, MC04-, CTS8512-, M3103-, CTS8269-, F871-, Z16412-, L337-, FGC8561-, M13-, S23106-, M278-, F3143+, F449-, CTS5880-, BY8-, PF27-, F4027-, PF192+, CTS9975+, Z370-, F3395-, PF946-, S7370-, CTS5961-, M9220-, P145+, PF2450-, CTS9335-, CTS7045-, ZS4598-, M3154-, F131-, PF3300-, F3940-, S785-, Z910-, A850-, PF4564-, F286-, L148-, PF3241-, Y1065-, F1346-, Z2972-, CTS7942-, FGC5-, CTS8725-, F2472-, DF63-, V169-, CTS2661-, F100-, P103+, PF5815-, F3949+, CTS10738-, CTS5769-, Z194-, M3190-, M2664+, PF5790-, Z17695-, CTS6572-, M114-, Z16282-, M136-, Y5798-, FGC595-, CTS4034-, S15710-, CTS9753-, CTS8862-, Z367-, PF7562-, F1837-, P101-, CTS1658-, F1220-, L549-, CTS7215-, V180-, F516-, M342-, F722-, P119-, Z16539-, CTS7398-, FGC23399+, Z16399-, PF5132-, CTS3662+, L1198-, FGC7528-, Y539-, CTS6280-, L1029-, Z1500-, FGC17603-, F1439-, CTS1899-, Z17484-, F3853-, Z180-, L298-, CTS7832-, F1081-, FGC8507+, F3383-, BY1769-, F2657-, CTS356-, CTS7080-, Z911-, F1085-, F2634-, F299-, PF2897-, F1210-, F2145-, CTS10126-, FGC17308-, YSC0000225-, F743-, M166-, Y5305+, ZS20-, L1200-, L514-, F3082-, PF133-, CTS11041+, CTS6384-, M125-, S5741-, PF7558-, SK567-, M515-, Z714-, BY1237-, M43-, PF886+, PF3794-, CTS6476-, CTS4236-, CTS1117-, CTS3825-, CTS2488-, Z372-, M340-, CTS11285-, PF3346-, PF809+, s42-, FGC635-, Z16887+, S17330-, P181-, CTS11769-, CTS107-, Z17370+, CTS2517-, FGC924-, M204-, Z16673-, L1413-, Z731-, FGC11917-, Z6-, BY4-, F3914-, CTS8959-, CTS4219-, Z18051-, Z31-, BY771-, L65.1-, S11121-, F2604-, Z17384-, L747-, F2381+, Z9-, F3915-, L600-, M9356+, CTS6265-, FGC17298-, Z17675-, V196-, CTS10896-, Z195-, F4088-, V88-, Z350-, CTS7296-, M66-, BY1054-, Z15500+, CTS12108-, L458-, Z841-, Z37-, Z17626+, CTS7210-, CTS7030-, A89-, S15301-, FGC12582-, CTS1664-, F996-, PF3457-, F1804-, Z16376-, S21825-, Z156-, CTS7204-, CTS2888-, V26-, FGC14891-, CTS11454-, CTS1029-, Z280-, F2503-, CTS8133-, FGC8590-, Z8-, F911-, F1298-, A561-, CTS11529-, CTS12018-, F1226-, F835+, Z2093-, CTS2550-, Z92-, F1986-, Z16407-, L55-, PF228-, L555-, CTS2272-, M145-, M208-, CTS35-, F3107-, CTS1845-, L627-, S1128-, Z283-, L29-, S25383-, Y1100-, L436-, P197-, Z253-, CTS11009-, L634-, CTS10687-, CTS6519-, F357-, Z16907+, CTS9738-, L569-, P154-, F137-, FGC12057+, F1092-, Z185-, Z15506-, CTS10720-, CTS188-, L573-, CTS4717-, Y1091-, BY733-, F2147-, PF278+, F2000-, F75-, L1195-, PF6863-, PF302+, M239-, F272-, Z2184-, FGC605-, M526-, L732-, PF601+, F3406-, CTS8057-, F2911-, Z945-, Z16-, F706-, CTS8584-, CTS6287-, PF794-, A91-, FGC7475-, PF3028-, FGC3101-, Y1022-, M203-, Z1506-, F720-, CTS11268-, PF3475-, CTS4368-, PF4843-, CTS10714-, M407-, CTS1211-, CTS1096-, F3982-, Z781-, PF3171-, L648-, L131-, M3149-, F3219-, F122-, L599-, PF1200-, PF627+, M1074-, CTS4783-, L719-, F3590-, PF6271-, FGC11344-, L731-, Z15556-, CTS6623-, Z16383-, L291-, P303-, PF6835-, FGC12436-, L716-, V203-, PF3149-, F1805-, CTS6434-, CTS5531-, F4102-, Z16860-, Z248-, Z713-, BY738-, F572-, F3114-, F1215-, FGC20048-, L246-, S1254-, F3567-, PF4363-, F2775-, CTS6334-, A664-, L180-, Z2040-, F1280-, F1304-, Z16905-, Z148-, F4073-, Z4139-, FGC11398-, F2777-, Y5113-, M28-, L1450-, CTS11540-, FGC4150+, CTS7929+, CTS3555-, F4116-, FGC3247-, F1241-, F3966-, Z631-, PF1060+, Z26-, FGC8738-, S2808-, L1240-, FGC9635-, P193-, s5239-, M38-, F3042-, L671-, A568-, P76-, CTS1975-, L6-, P308-, CTS1751-, Z11913+, Z255-, CTS3370-, L42-, F2093-, L259-, CTS1434-, Z16986+, F450-, CTS9883-, P263-, PF1431-, BY1551-, F182-, CTS10945-, Z17478-, PF1834-, Z3001-, PF5536-, M27-, Z17648-, L791-, M3426-, PF1455-, U21-, F1716-, L550-, M268-, V204-, Z141-, Z346-, V165-, PF3095-, PF2477-, FGC11339-, F3440-, CTS7467-, F4329-, Z1476-, CTS8781-, L528-, S23078-, Z17649-, F1400-, CTS5519-, BY1087+, PF1868-, M6-, Z1828-, FGC15527-, CTS1737-, P305+, L430-, L845-, F3927-, F1632-, PF3238-, Z17560-, PF3182-, FGC15160-, Z331-, M343-, Z288-, PF1169+, F2176-, PF4551-, M3130+, BY266-, CTS11078-, V7-, CTS9884-, FGC14936-, PF3237-, Y1114-, Z15519-, F1161-, V61-, CTS8432-, Z259-, Z16530-, F1232-, L519-, CTS8892-, Z16267-, M295-, F3043-, Z780-, A246+, CTS246-, BY900-, BY2361-, Z11903-, CTS8153-, L41-, CTS8196-, FGC21123+, PF3160-, CTS7111-, CTS1304-, F619-, F1835-, Y1044-, L165-, Z17446-, CTS8216+, L1199-, FGC7568-, V89-, FGC15254-, F1611-, PF2875-, CTS5714-, CTS2929-, Z18-, FGC1811+, F1351-, F3063-, PF1049+, CTS4373-, A139-, F867-, L15-, CTS3663-, V57-, F3469-, BY678-, F793-, s4004+, FGC613-, BY714+, M290-, CTS931-, CTS7803+, CTS11578-, M26-, V217-, L739-, BY2403-, L270-, V10-, CTS2906-, CTS687+, L595-, BY2-, F489+, L426-, FGC16324+, CTS10504-, M174-, Z1817+, PF1371-, V159-, CTS8289-, F723-, M129+, Z21258-, PF3148-, M1775-, Z16890-, F2935-, CTS1789+, CTS8492+, F3632+, CTS132-, CTS6507-, F4297-, F2346-, Z15543+, Z109-, CTS6340-, L485-, L1451-, F3821-, F196-, Z249-, CTS10552-, CTS7277-, PF2258-, L333-, P81-, M42-, F3640-, L233-, CTS1163-, M3297-, F3237-, CTS3519+, F4233-, BY236-, CTS9892-, Z16677+, CTS10772-, S10807-, F1307-, s781-, A641-, M194-, F632-, Y2006-, CTS8277-, L254+, P183-, L703-, F1956+, PF3433-, Z3250-, FGC13503+, P330-, M106-, F660-, L135-, CTS4937-, F4084-, F964-, Z16512-, CTS7182-, F668-, F3147-, L398-, FGC13372-, SK1171-, S1026-, Z904-, CTS10286-, P120-, PF5733-, Z79-, S1523-, L437-, Z16292-, CTS7498-, L712-, M123-, PF5802-, CTS11577-, F292-, Z17288+, F2173-, F3939-, F2544-, FGC7448-, FGC923-, CTS4406-, F134-, Z145-, CTS4318-, M155-, CTS2161-, L836-, F3256-, M285-, Z3495+, L930-, S691-, CTS2809-, FGC14884+, BY1420-, P107-, CTS4723-, PF230+, CTS7356-, L35-, F2743-, CTS2501-, L1197-, F1894-, BY751-, Y1083+, A883-, CTS3390-, CTS5312-, CTS4235+, PF3270-, CTS7930-, CTS5301-, FGC9661-, CTS5905-, F2591-, CTS2730-, CTS1582-, FGC8000-, PF3163-, FGC1899-, F2982-, PF1428-, F3748-, CTS4466-, CTS5990-, CTS8327-, M182-, L591-, F279-, A813-, CTS9952-, P230-, PF5718-, CTS4065-, FGC591+, F1598-, CTS7229-, P194-, V158-, CTS7638-, V59+, CTS5296-, CTS10355-, Z16900+, F305-, F1626-, FGC10481-, PF288-, M197-, BY204-, M176-, CTS7970-, P91+, s3-, CTS11985-, F3207-, L511-, FGC22193-, CTS2498-, F1030-, CTS6354-, Z16896-, CTS3073-, F2086-, A43-, M3430-, PF3314-, P160+, V181-, FGC20762+, FGC572-, N5-, Z17425-, M212-, F3356-, CTS2214-, CTS6854-, FGC1863-, M5539+, L1336-, A415-, L1361-, L493-, F2108-, CTS9548-, M272-, F4052-, F1782-, CTS10312-, F659-, F2494-, PF6848-, CTS10651-, PF835+, CTS8951-, Z1890+, F343-, FGC18148+, F2786-, BY437+, F858-, CTS890-, M3191-, V154-, CTS6090-, F1870-, FGC1872-, CTS8545-, Z36-, MC16-, CTS3394-, F748-, Z709-, F2468-, BY233+, Z21268-, PF3922-, CTS9219-, L449-, PF1030+, L194-, Z220-, Y1126-, PF1358-, CTS3906-, PF4585-, CTS7931-, Z1513-, PF3255+, Z17825-, Z19221-, Y2060-, Y4353-, Z6582-, Y2094-, Z16846-, Y1992-, Z6589-, Y2084-, FGC18100-, ZS1850-, Z18079-, Z7648-, Y5063+, S7541-, S7535-, S18546-, FGC17438+, Z17673-, Y7357-, Y3137-, Z16363-, Z16364-, Y2200-, Z16390+, YSC0000043-, Y1972-, SK2140-, Y2102-, Y1996-, Y3134+, S301+, Z17498-, Y2134+, Z3400-, Y2050-, FGC5612-, L839-, Z7171-, PF3261+, Z16933-, SK1109-, Z16419-, YP276-, F1743-, Y2061-, Y7075-, F1029-, Y4349-, Z17400-, YSC0000049-, SK1266-, Z16420+, S20284-, S18959-, Z3512-, Z17380-, CTS1243-, Z6571-, Y5975-, Z18123-, PF3567-, Y1987-, Z4374-, M438-, Z12222-, Y2197-, PF3323-, Y2148-, Y3265-, S25566-, Y5076-, Z6566+, Z6586+, S5199-, Z16330+, SK1107+, Z6279-, FGC17442-, S6901-, Z17894+, Y3133-, Z16428-, Z17867-, Y3558-, Z6592-, Y2208-, Z16422+, PF2994-, PF4580-, Y2147-, Y2080-, Z6590-, FGC11802-, S23720+, Z3511-, Y2051-, FGC17443-, PF1370-, FGC5597-, Z3038-, S309-, Y2053-, Y5069-, S14469-, Z22209+, PF3042-, S14640-, Y6451-, Y5058-, Z16327+, Z17981-, Z6585+, Z16832-, Z6715-, Y7354-, Z17862-, Z6199-, Y4665-, S20021-, Y2146-, S11985-, Y2012-, Y7352-, Z20163-, Z17822-, Z3258+, Y2137-, L878-, S25821-, Y2132-, Z16388-, S588-, Y4010+, YP281-, Z6557-, Y2073-, Y5075-, Y5065-, S15820-, Z3025+, Z6319-, L942-, Z6584-, YP275-, PF1434-, S22095-, S427-, Z4952-, Z16369-, Z17480-, PF2886-, Z7169-, PF4579-, Y6455-, Z17900+, Z17863-, FGC5598-, YP278-, Z16932+, Y2091-, Y5077-, S23993-, Z6578-, Y2138-, Y1988-, Y3135-, Y2085-, Z17866-, Z6562-, Z16424-, Y4750+, Y6459-, Z16502+, Y2067-, Z6491-, PF4588-, Z6686+, Y1986-, Y5657+, Z16934+, Y3462-, Z17901+, Y5322+, Z16343-, Z16426-, Y4915+, Y2129-, Y4926+, FGC17445-, Z16942+, Y3962-, Y6954-, Y7356-, PF2969-, BY60-, YP204-, PF4845-, Z16423-, Z18786-, Z6553-, Z6042-, FGC17441+, Z6713-, Z16775-, Y6462-, Z16500+, Z17417-, Z6738-, Y3159-, YP330-, Y6460-, Z17398+, Y4752-, Y3465-, Z17371+, Z3381-, L940+, PF6217-, Y3001+, Z16504+, Z6569-, S22684-, PT1-, Z3033-, S7753-, Z17865-, S20321+, Z17899+, S25516-, Y5332-, CTS15-, S22146-, YSC0000053-, Y2124+, Z16930-, Z6574-, FGC15178-, Y3713-, Z16514-, S16504-, Z17823+, S424-, Z16975-, PF6578-, FGC19599+, Z17895+, Z13851-, Z13062-, Y2370-, Y2224-, S2361-, Z17620-, Z6534+, FGC17444-, FGC5594-, Z6593-, Y2086-, Y2092-, F2174-, Z16983+, Z6556-, Z6901-, S3057-, Z3332+, Z6570+, S658-, Z16365-, Z16385-, Z7822+, Y2720-, Z6576-, S660+, Z17510+, Z3312-, Y1771-, FGC17433-, S308-, Y347-, Y4171-, Y3657-, Z3445-, Z6779-, Z14667-, Y2357-, Z3215+, Z6522+


10834


Hi Guys,

The drill of manually going through the results and checking for anomalies and a pattern of positive SNPs is called " Quality Control ". This is exactly what Armando has done by running a check on positives and negative SNP and visual inspection of the SNPs on the Y Tree. Once you get the raw data and the algorithm assigns you a predicted haplogroups, it is the duty of the vendor i.e. Genographic/FTDNA to do Quality Control and not the customer going through this tedious task.

Coming back to Armando's prediction of H-M69 which does coincide with FTDNA's latest assigned group ( from J to R to F to H then to R and back to H), I am very cautious to accept it as authentic and have therefore gone to a third vendor 23andme for confirmation. They have assigned me F and I have already questioned it and requested them for a review explaining them the whole story.

The Problem with FTDNA/Genographic's assigned H group is that my raw data shows me positive for H-M69 and then downstream positive for P80 and P266 and negative for Apt.
Considering the H - Haplotree below, one cannot be positive for P266 or P80 if he is negative for Apt. P266 and P80 branch out from the parent Apt and I am tested negative for it.

Now one can argue that

1. I am false negative for Apt or false positive for P266/P80

Please note that H is a very shallow haplogree ( not much SNP density involved ) and if out of these only three SNPS ( M69, P80 and P266 ), the vendor is not able to tell which one is positive which one is false positive and which one is false negative then it means that the prediction accuracy score is only 33 % if I am assigned H-M69 (very low).
or perhaps there is a delibration here by the vendors to oversell their BigY product. I don't like their business model !

https://i.gyazo.com/b6306a8e934be420ed6b872e32b30f4d.png

It is pretty clear that both vendors missed big time on quality control while assigning me a haplogroup. Not once but 2 or 3 times !

I might come as H but it all now depends on the response I get from 23andme who have placed me under F. I am following up with them and lets see what they say.
23andme has came very solid with their regional ancestry results ( coherent with my ethnic background) compared to NatGeo (assigned me some finnurgic, majority Central Asian and some South Asian) when in reality I am a pure South Asian.

Emir
08-09-2016, 01:12 AM
Are you in an FTDNA project? If you look at your kit in that project does it show a terminal SNP or does it show blank? If you just log in, does it have a recent date for your test date? What did FTDNA say about the latest change?

jatt2016
08-09-2016, 01:24 AM
Are you in an FTDNA project? If you look at your kit in that project does it show a terminal SNP or does it show blank? If you just log in, does it have a recent date for your test date? What did FTDNA say about the latest change?

Yes , I did join a project called ahlulbayt
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/l581/

but left it as mentioned on Page 1 of this thread, post no 5 by me, point 7.

Emir
08-09-2016, 10:30 AM
If you are not in a project then you are not in a project. You have a lot of drama surrounding you. I was just trying to determine how final the new haplogroup is. It seems after reviewing your other posts, that someone determined you were H-M69 6 months ago. It's pretty obvious that is what you are. You have spent money on Geno 2.0 NG and 23andme, and you still are in the dark. It's sad to see you having so many problems.

jatt2016
08-09-2016, 10:49 AM
If you are not in a project then you are not in a project. You have a lot of drama surrounding you. I was just trying to determine how final the new haplogroup is. It seems after reviewing your other posts, that someone determined you were H-M69 6 months ago. It's pretty obvious that is what you are. You have spent money on Geno 2.0 NG and 23andme, and you still are in the dark. It's sad to see you having so many problems.

Please refrain from making personal remarks. You made the same mistake earlier and repeating it.

Emir
08-09-2016, 02:01 PM
Personal remarks? I'm asking you to check your account and see if they changed your test date. I'm asking if you were in a project, see if you are listed with a particular haplogroup or is it blank. And, I'm asking what did FTDNA say. This is merely to determine if they actually did something or if it is some algorithm switching you around. These questions were merely to help to resolve your situation. Instead of answering, you refer me to post 5, point 7, so I have to go research YOUR issue. I did, and I saw personal remarks about someone. You don't have to answer, it's your results, not mine. I tested with 23andme and the one thing I don't like about them, is they make it so hard to get to the bottom line. In that respect, FTDNA provides more information.

Saetro
08-09-2016, 11:49 PM
Thank you Mr. Armando for all your time and assistance. I only wish that the DNA testing companies had committed and sincere people like you able to assist their clients and sort out their tickets. :)

This is very much at the heart of what is going on.
Ideally, the customer should be properly informed about the outcome before purchasing a test.
Unfortunately emotion is brought into the mix by both individuals wanting to do the test as well as testing labs touting for business.
And this is a complex area.
I regularly spend an hour on the phone with one or other member of my family history society just going through what they hope to get and what test will best do it for them. In the end, it is often a matter of hoping that some distant cousin has also tested, or enough people with the same haplogroup.
People like Armando have been very patient with helping me, so my helping others is only giving forwards.
Thank you to them all, and to all the bloggers in this area.
And to this forum that enables us to help each other.

While so many people make their choice on the basis of 1)whichever test lab shouts loudest, and 2)the lowest price, in what is a complex field; it is inevitable that some individuals will continue to be led to expectations that are unrealistic.
I strongly advise potential testers to inform themselves in whatever aspect they want to research, to read what the tester says in FAQs and if necessary, to ask the tester what they can do for them.

ArmandoR1b
08-10-2016, 02:23 AM
Every chip of this size is going to have some SNPs that don't work properly, giving both false positives and false negatives. There needs to be a verification process to establish which reads are legitimate and which are garbage. And then you just ignore (don't report to the customer) any SNPs that don't give reliable results. My impression, based on this thread and other comments I've seen elsewhere, is that this new chip was rushed to market without going through any such verification process. They are essentially doing open beta testing to figure out which SNPs need to be filtered out and thrown away.

Yes, Genographic did rush it through and they should not have. I've never said anything different. They also seem to have a proportionately higher rate of false positives than any of the other chips. They only added about 1,630 Y-DNA SNPs even though they say they have 15,000. They really don't because many of them are just synonymous SNPs. They only have about 13,600 and the first Geno 2.0 had about 12,000. Genographic also took a long time to admit to having erroneous results for the chip that they designed.

ArmandoR1b
08-10-2016, 02:32 AM
Hi Guys,

The drill of manually going through the results and checking for anomalies and a pattern of positive SNPs is called " Quality Control ". This is exactly what Armando has done by running a check on positives and negative SNP and visual inspection of the SNPs on the Y Tree. Once you get the raw data and the algorithm assigns you a predicted haplogroups, it is the duty of the vendor i.e. Genographic/FTDNA to do Quality Control and not the customer going through this tedious task.

Coming back to Armando's prediction of H-M69 which does coincide with FTDNA's latest assigned group ( from J to R to F to H then to R and back to H), I am very cautious to accept it as authentic and have therefore gone to a third vendor 23andme for confirmation. They have assigned me F and I have already questioned it and requested them for a review explaining them the whole story.

The Problem with FTDNA/Genographic's assigned H group is that my raw data shows me positive for H-M69 and then downstream positive for P80 and P266 and negative for Apt.
Considering the H - Haplotree below, one cannot be positive for P266 or P80 if he is negative for Apt. P266 and P80 branch out from the parent Apt and I am tested negative for it.

Now one can argue that

1. I am false negative for Apt or false positive for P266/P80

Please note that H is a very shallow haplogree ( not much SNP density involved ) and if out of these only three SNPS ( M69, P80 and P266 ), the vendor is not able to tell which one is positive which one is false positive and which one is false negative then it means that the prediction accuracy score is only 33 % if I am assigned H-M69 (very low).
or perhaps there is a delibration here by the vendors to oversell their BigY product. I don't like their business model !

https://i.gyazo.com/b6306a8e934be420ed6b872e32b30f4d.png

It is pretty clear that both vendors missed big time on quality control while assigning me a haplogroup. Not once but 2 or 3 times !

I might come as H but it all now depends on the response I get from 23andme who have placed me under F. I am following up with them and lets see what they say.
23andme has came very solid with their regional ancestry results ( coherent with my ethnic background) compared to NatGeo (assigned me some finnurgic, majority Central Asian and some South Asian) when in reality I am a pure South Asian.

P266 is an unreliable SNP. See the bottom of http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpH.html You need to completely ignore P266. As far as Apt. and P80 you can have a reverse mutation. They do happen occasionally. What is important with SNP testing is that you are positive for almost all upstream SNPs but it doesn't have to be 100%. You can also test with Yseq to have those double checked. Since you have already tested with them that is only $35 plus $1 each if you have to wish them first.

jatt2016
08-10-2016, 02:50 AM
P266 is an unreliable SNP. See the bottom of http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpH.html You need to completely ignore P266. As far as Apt. and P80 you can have a reverse mutation. They do happen occasionally. What is important with SNP testing is that you are positive for almost all upstream SNPs but it doesn't have to be 100%. You can also test with Yseq to have those double checked. Since you have already tested with them that is only $35 plus $1 each if you have to wish them first.

Thank you for the advise as always . What is the criteria on the basis of which we can judge that P80 is a reverse mutation and M69 is not.? Guess work?

It would have been lot easier if there was a sequence of tested positive SNPS for me - for example a scenario where I was tested positive for M69, then M52 then M82 and so on an entire sequence make sense but this guess work that :

presumably if I am false positive or a case of reverse mutation, then it makes things more convoluted. The same rationale can be applied on M69 too. Assigning a haplogroups on the basis of just one positive SNP under a tree does not make sense. My correspondence with 23andme is ongoing and they are of the opinion that your haplogroups should be the one where you have the most tested positive SNPs which as per them is F.

https://i.gyazo.com/80e952570a8b51e5bb4124f88c3a138c.png

ArmandoR1b
08-10-2016, 05:07 PM
Thank you for the advise as always . What is the criteria on the basis of which we can judge that P80 is a reverse mutation and M69 is not.? Guess work?

It would have been lot easier if there was a sequence of tested positive SNPS for me - for example a scenario where I was tested positive for M69, then M52 then M82 and so on an entire sequence make sense but this guess work that :

presumably if I am false positive or a case of reverse mutation, then it makes things more convoluted. The same rationale can be applied on M69 too. Assigning a haplogroups on the basis of just one positive SNP under a tree does not make sense.

https://i.gyazo.com/80e952570a8b51e5bb4124f88c3a138c.png

Where are you getting that tree from? It is a very badly created or outdated tree. It conflicts with ISOGG (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpH.html), YFull (https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-M69/), and FTDNA. M370 and M69 are phylogenetic equivalents which means that if you are positive for both then you almost definitely belong in the subclade of H. You tested positive for M69 at Geno and at 23andme and you tested positive for M370 at Yseq so now that is almost 100% guaranteed that you are in that subclade. You are negative for M52 at Geno and 23andme and negative for APT at 23andme. Geno has you negative for P80 and for P314 which is a phylogenetic equivalent so it is only 23andme that has you positive for P80.

So what you need is to be retested for APT and P80 at Yseq in order to see which company gave you the correct results and if you have a reverse mutation and it's best not to rely on that outdated tree that you have posted. Use https://www.yfull.com/search-snp-in-tree/ to find the SNPs and where they belong or ISOGG http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpH.html


My correspondence with 23andme is ongoing and they are of the opinion that your haplogroups should be the one where you have the most tested positive SNPs which as per them is F.
They don't even test enough haplogroup H SNPs in order to determine if you are positive for enough H SNPs. They don't test for M2826 or M370 or other SNPs in between F and H and everyone that is H descends from F. They are stuck in 2009 but this year is 2016. This is what H looked like in 2009 http://isogg.org/tree/2009/ISOGG_HapgrpH09.html

jatt2016
08-10-2016, 11:52 PM
Where are you getting that tree from? It is a very badly created or outdated tree. It conflicts with ISOGG (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpH.html), YFull (https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-M69/), and FTDNA. M370 and M69 are phylogenetic equivalents which means that if you are positive for both then you almost definitely belong in the subclade of H. You tested positive for M69 at Geno and at 23andme and you tested positive for M370 at Yseq so now that is almost 100% guaranteed that you are in that subclade. You are negative for M52 at Geno and 23andme and negative for APT at 23andme. Geno has you negative for P80 and for P314 which is a phylogenetic equivalent so it is only 23andme that has you positive for P80.

So what you need is to be retested for APT and P80 at Yseq in order to see which company gave you the correct results and if you have a reverse mutation and it's best not to rely on that outdated tree that you have posted. Use https://www.yfull.com/search-snp-in-tree/ to find the SNPs and where they belong or ISOGG http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpH.html


They don't even test enough haplogroup H SNPs in order to determine if you are positive for enough H SNPs. They don't test for M2826 or M370 or other SNPs in between F and H and everyone that is H descends from F. They are stuck in 2009 but this year is 2016. This is what H looked like in 2009 http://isogg.org/tree/2009/ISOGG_HapgrpH09.html

My raw Data available on the FTDNA site shows that I am a CC for P80 which means that I am positive and have the SNP as derived.
https://i.gyazo.com/7e914ed8344ec73d50ced70cdb424376.png

I reminded 23andme of my ticket and have already questioned them that why they have not place me in H when I have M69 positive. Their initial reponse was that I do not have enough positives under H. I have questioned them in wake of our recent discussion , and waiting for their response.


*******update ************ I noticed that my raw data file changed two times on FTDNA site . The May 01 version does not match with May 16 version. Useless !

ArmandoR1b
08-11-2016, 02:17 PM
Wow, I just read your thread about your Geno 2.0 Haplogroup J prediction from Feb 2016 http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6455-Haplogroup-J-CTS2906-Punjabi-Jatt

Ali16 really had been giving you great advice and posts for the most part including that you are H-M69 and that Geno 2.0 NextGen has bad results and that you should test with Yseq.

I really like the post by Ali16 with the link to the explanation by Charles Moore about how Chromo2 and the first version of Geno 2.0 had a lot of false positives that were taken out before even before they released the results but that for Geno 2.0 NextGen "Ray is seeing the same problems, not surprisingly, but he seems to be indicating that they haven't been doing as good a job of deleting the results from the false positives."

Charles Moore also states:

"Although the Geno Next Gen test covers more SNPs than the old Geno 2.0 test, it's not the best alternative for serious genetic genealogists in comparison to other tests that are available today. It's a test for newbies coming in from National Geographic.

The better alternatives at the high end, are the NGS-type tests from FGC or FTDNA, or otherwise the SNP Pack/Panel tests from FTDNA or YSEQ. Although these alternatives yield more reliable results, their real benefit is that they take you further down your line of descent, matching you to fewer people more closely related to yourself."

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b1c_U106-S21/conversations/messages/42150

jatt2016
08-11-2016, 11:21 PM
Wow, I just read your thread about your Geno 2.0 Haplogroup J prediction from Feb 2016 http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6455-Haplogroup-J-CTS2906-Punjabi-Jatt

Ali16 really had been giving you great advice and posts for the most part including that you are H-M69 and that Geno 2.0 NextGen has bad results and that you should test with Yseq.

I really like the post by Ali16 with the link to the explanation by Charles Moore about how Chromo2 and the first version of Geno 2.0 had a lot of false positives that were taken out before even before they released the results but that for Geno 2.0 NextGen "Ray is seeing the same problems, not surprisingly, but he seems to be indicating that they haven't been doing as good a job of deleting the results from the false positives."

Charles Moore also states:

"Although the Geno Next Gen test covers more SNPs than the old Geno 2.0 test, it's not the best alternative for serious genetic genealogists in comparison to other tests that are available today. It's a test for newbies coming in from National Geographic.

The better alternatives at the high end, are the NGS-type tests from FGC or FTDNA, or otherwise the SNP Pack/Panel tests from FTDNA or YSEQ. Although these alternatives yield more reliable results, their real benefit is that they take you further down your line of descent, matching you to fewer people more closely related to yourself."

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b1c_U106-S21/conversations/messages/42150

Ali is the same FTDNA volunteer administrator whom I have complained about. He has been banned twice/thrice for trolling/racist remarks and insults. I have also reported him to FTDNA and the authorities for harassment and fraud. The group name is Alulbayth ( Arabic for Family of The Prophet ). Ever since, I joined his project, he had been calling me an imposter and bringing shame to the family of the Prophet. His explanation was " that only the descendants of Muhammad - the Prophet of Islam can have J-CTS2906 ( my original Haplogroup assigned by Geno.) . I differed with him in the sense that anybody can have it and we cannot confine a haplogroups to a certain family. To cut the story short - motivated by religious zeal, he accused me of blasphemy which in the Islamic world is a warrant of death ! All the posts were reviewed by the moderators and he was banned. I confirmed with FTDNA that he does not work for FTDNA but is a volunteer. The clever guy got my real name and address from the kit and started calling the vendors without my consent and claims to have corrected three FTDNA kits including mine. I raise this issue with FTDNA that why they assigned my KIT to volunteer and not a FTDNA professional. Partially my fault, that I inadvertently clicked on a link that he sent to me as a bait. Uses multiple id's on forums. Emir was his 3rd id that got banned.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/l581/

miiser
08-12-2016, 04:32 AM
Ali is the same FTDNA volunteer administrator whom I have complained about. He has been banned twice/thrice for trolling/racist remarks and insults. I have also reported him to FTDNA and the authorities for harassment and fraud. The group name is Alulbayth ( Arabic for Family of The Prophet ). Ever since, I joined his project, he had been calling me an imposter and bringing shame to the family of the Prophet. His explanation was " that only the descendants of Muhammad - the Prophet of Islam can have J-CTS2906 ( my original Haplogroup assigned by Geno.) . I differed with him in the sense that anybody can have it and we cannot confine a haplogroups to a certain family. To cut the story short - motivated by religious zeal, he accused me of blasphemy which in the Islamic world is a warrant of death ! All the posts were reviewed by the moderators and he was banned. I confirmed with FTDNA that he does not work for FTDNA but is a volunteer. The clever guy got my real name and address from the kit and started calling the vendors without my consent and claims to have corrected three FTDNA kits including mine. I raise this issue with FTDNA that why they assigned my KIT to volunteer and not a FTDNA professional. Partially my fault, that I advertently clicked on a link that he sent to me as a bait. Uses multiple id's on forums. Emir was his 3rd id that got banned.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/l581/

The entire extent of an FTDNA project admin's qualification is that they happened to be the first person to request a new project - this, and nothing more. Sometimes this works out okay, and the admin rises to the responsibility of leading a project. Many times, not.

I can't speak to your personal experience, but the idea that an FTDNA group admin can be generally trusted as an expert and authority is highly doubtful. I know I've had some very bad experiences. In one case, the only goal of my haplogroup project admin was apparently to prove that his lineage, and his alone, was the original lineage of a surname. The person couldn't have cared less about the interests of the other project members. He even went so far as to post fraudulent DNA data in various online forums in order to "prove" his point. There are some crazy people out there, and genetic genealogy seems to attract more than its share.

The other obstacle is whether the group admin has the intellect, scientific comprehension, and technical grasp to be able to correctly interpret the data. More often than not, they lack the necessary skills to comprehend what the data says.

Many times, a "project" is nothing more than a list of unorganized data, with everyone just piled into one "ungrouped" category.

FTDNA's model of relying on volunteer admins to organize projects has both advantages and disadvantages. I've had both positive and negative experiences in my project involvement. It's really a roll of the dice.

Not meaning to judge your personal experience and the value of whatever advice you've received in the past - but I know I can't get behind the recommendation to just join a project and trust the admin's advice.

jatt2016
08-12-2016, 10:25 AM
The entire extent of an FTDNA project admin's qualification is that they happened to be the first person to request a new project - this, and nothing more. Sometimes this works out okay, and the admin rises to the responsibility of leading a project. Many times, not.

I can't speak to your personal experience, but the idea that an FTDNA group admin can be generally trusted as an expert and authority is highly doubtful. I know I've had some very bad experiences. In one case, the only goal of my haplogroup project admin was apparently to prove that his lineage, and his alone, was the original lineage of a surname. The person couldn't have cared less about the interests of the other project members. He even went so far as to post fraudulent DNA data in various online forums in order to "prove" his point. There are some crazy people out there, and genetic genealogy seems to attract more than its share.

The other obstacle is whether the group admin has the intellect, scientific comprehension, and technical grasp to be able to correctly interpret the data. More often than not, they lack the necessary skills to comprehend what the data says.

Many times, a "project" is nothing more than a list of unorganized data, with everyone just piled into one "ungrouped" category.

FTDNA's model of relying on volunteer admins to organize projects has both advantages and disadvantages. I've had both positive and negative experiences in my project involvement. It's really a roll of the dice.

Not meaning to judge your personal experience and the value of whatever advice you've received in the past - but I know I can't get behind the recommendation to just join a project and trust the admin's advice.

The volunteer group administrator thing is designed to extract money from gullible or overly eager customers. In my case, the person was highly unprofessional and a scammer. Boasted that he had 10 years of experience in geneology and in his latest email he said that : "had I respected him, he would have sorted my case long time ago and since, I did not thank him enough and hence all the troubles". What a shameful behavior eh? BTW I have saved screenshots of all his correspondence as proof.

ArmandoR1b
08-12-2016, 12:44 PM
Jatt, thank you for posting what happened. I wish I had known.

I haven't had any bad experiences in any of the FTDNA groups that I have joined. Some of the group admins are people that post at Anthrogenica and used to post at other DNA forums, or still do, and are extremely knowledgeable and helpful people even if I disagree with a statement or two. If the FTDNA groups and Anthrogenica didn't exist we would only have a little more knowledge than we had in 2009 for Y-DNA and mtDNA. You really have no idea how much they have helped. These past seven years have sped along a lot thanks to increased testing by FTDNA, the first version of Geno 2.0, Yseq, FGC, and YFull. The first version of Geno 2.0 was also done in the lab of FTDNA but it was a good test for the most part. YSEQ was started by Dr. Thomas Krahn former scientist at FTDNA that developed the chip for the first version of Geno 2.0. YFull analyzes FTDNA BigY testing and is a very good service. If you had lived through all of the advances you would understand.

vettor
08-12-2016, 06:48 PM
Wow, I just read your thread about your Geno 2.0 Haplogroup J prediction from Feb 2016 http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6455-Haplogroup-J-CTS2906-Punjabi-Jatt

Ali16 really had been giving you great advice and posts for the most part including that you are H-M69 and that Geno 2.0 NextGen has bad results and that you should test with Yseq.

I really like the post by Ali16 with the link to the explanation by Charles Moore about how Chromo2 and the first version of Geno 2.0 had a lot of false positives that were taken out before even before they released the results but that for Geno 2.0 NextGen "Ray is seeing the same problems, not surprisingly, but he seems to be indicating that they haven't been doing as good a job of deleting the results from the false positives."

Charles Moore also states:

"Although the Geno Next Gen test covers more SNPs than the old Geno 2.0 test, it's not the best alternative for serious genetic genealogists in comparison to other tests that are available today. It's a test for newbies coming in from National Geographic.

The better alternatives at the high end, are the NGS-type tests from FGC or FTDNA, or otherwise the SNP Pack/Panel tests from FTDNA or YSEQ. Although these alternatives yield more reliable results, their real benefit is that they take you further down your line of descent, matching you to fewer people more closely related to yourself."

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b1c_U106-S21/conversations/messages/42150


I got more SNP both positive and negative from Geno 2 than any other company ...............I got more help from Geno 2 than anyone else............I got the first truly accurate ydna and mtdna than anyone else ...................and the worst is 23andme ......
In 23andme v3 I had T marker ( which I am ) since november 2015 they are using v4 format and have placed me under F marker , because my v3 SNP's are no longer in their v4 system. Utterly useless company

ArmandoR1b
08-12-2016, 08:04 PM
I got more SNP both positive and negative from Geno 2 than any other company ...............I got more help from Geno 2 than anyone else............I got the first truly accurate ydna and mtdna than anyone else That was the first version of Geno 2.0 and not Geno 2.0 NextGen. There is a higher percentage of people that get an incorrect haplogroup or subclade with Geno 2.0 NextGen than did with the first version of Geno 2.0 or with 23andme. I haven't seen you post that you have had a BigY test so you could see that with a YFull or FGC analysis it would give you more positive and negatives than any other company. The FTDNA FMS tests more of the mtDNA than any other company except a much more expensive FGC test. With a BigY test you would probably create a new subclade at https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS8489/


...................and the worst is 23andme ......
In 23andme v3 I had T marker ( which I am ) since november 2015 they are using v4 format and have placed me under F marker , because my v3 SNP's are no longer in their v4 system. Utterly useless company
23andme tests a far too low of a number of Y-DNA SNPs. There are less than 1,000 Y-DNA SNPs without no-calls. 884 in one of the files that I looked at. The first version of Geno 2.0 had about 12,000. Geno 2.0 NextGen probably has the same number or even less if all of the extra false positives and false negatives are removed. BigY has almost 36,000 SNPs in the VCF file the actual number of usable SNPs will be far less but a lot more than Geno 2.0.

jatt2016
08-12-2016, 09:59 PM
Jatt, thank you for posting what happened. I wish I had known.

I haven't had any bad experiences in any of the FTDNA groups that I have joined. Some of the group admins are people that post at Anthrogenica and used to post at other DNA forums, or still do, and are extremely knowledgeable and helpful people even if I disagree with a statement or two. If the FTDNA groups and Anthrogenica didn't exist we would only have a little more knowledge than we had in 2009 for Y-DNA and mtDNA. You really have no idea how much they have helped. These past seven years have sped along a lot thanks to increased testing by FTDNA, the first version of Geno 2.0, Yseq, FGC, and YFull. The first version of Geno 2.0 was also done in the lab of FTDNA but it was a good test for the most part. YSEQ was started by Dr. Thomas Krahn former scientist at FTDNA that developed the chip for the first version of Geno 2.0. YFull analyzes FTDNA BigY testing and is a very good service. If you had lived through all of the advances you would understand.

I really appreciate all the support that I have got from you and all the forum members. I do understand that this is an evolving science and that discrepancies, honest mistakes etc. would always be there and that is patience is required to have things sorted out. I am sure that most of the administrator are friendly and with a professional attitude but I just happened to get connected to a bad one. This forum has been very helpful in broadening my understanding about haplogroups and once again , I thank you all for your time and assistance.

Regards,
Jatt2016

vettor
08-12-2016, 11:32 PM
That was the first version of Geno 2.0 and not Geno 2.0 NextGen. There is a higher percentage of people that get an incorrect haplogroup or subclade with Geno 2.0 NextGen than did with the first version of Geno 2.0 or with 23andme. I haven't seen you post that you have had a BigY test so you could see that with a YFull or FGC analysis it would give you more positive and negatives than any other company. The FTDNA FMS tests more of the mtDNA than any other company except a much more expensive FGC test. With a BigY test you would probably create a new subclade at https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS8489/


23andme tests a far too low of a number of Y-DNA SNPs. There are less than 1,000 Y-DNA SNPs without no-calls. 884 in one of the files that I looked at. The first version of Geno 2.0 had about 12,000. Geno 2.0 NextGen probably has the same number or even less if all of the extra false positives and false negatives are removed. BigY has almost 36,000 SNPs in the VCF file the actual number of usable SNPs will be far less but a lot more than Geno 2.0.

Thanks

I will not get better than Samargyl reading for me even if I do a bigY
from semargyl below

T1a2 L131>Y6033/L446>CTS933>CTS11984>CTS8862+ Europe

The only benefit is IF i branch out from brand new branch and that cannot happen with CTS8862

ArmandoR1b
08-14-2016, 04:06 PM
Thanks

I will not get better than Samargyl reading for me even if I do a bigY
from semargyl below

T1a2 L131>Y6033/L446>CTS933>CTS11984>CTS8862+ Europe

The only benefit is IF i branch out from brand new branch and that cannot happen with CTS8862

That's not true. You have more SNPs that are yet to be named or to be tested by any other test besides BigY or FGC.

At least one of the people that created Semargl is also part of YFull which does the analysis of BigY tests and they created YFull for a reason - because BigY is important for learning more about the phylogeny of the Y-DNA tree. http://isogg.org/wiki/YFull

Go to https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS8489/ the click on info next to where it says formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp. You'll see that they have 13 more SNPs. Those SNPs are unnamed but they have been tested for them by 1000 Genomes another test. You will also see that there are 3 people in that group. One of them is even brand new and is from Cagliari. So between you, the person from Cagliari, the Puerto Rican, and the Iberian you will create a new subclade out of those 13 SNPs that might or might not include one or two of them. Downstream from them are two more that have been tested by BigY. They have a common ancestor in about the last 375 years. You are very unlikely to match them.

Dewsloth
08-16-2016, 04:49 PM
I'll say this for Nat Geno's 2.0 next gen: It seems to do a pretty good job for some haplotypes (like R1b?). In my case, it went far past R1b>P312>DF19>DF88 to R-S4281, which is pretty darn specific for a first test.
FTDNA's custom bundled SNP pack only moved me along two more steps. It's gonna take a BigY to find out any more.

ArmandoR1b
08-16-2016, 06:25 PM
I'll say this for Nat Geno's 2.0 next gen: It seems to do a pretty good job for some haplotypes (like R1b?). In my case, it went far past R1b>P312>DF19>DF88 to R-S4281, which is pretty darn specific for a first test.
FTDNA's custom bundled SNP pack only moved me along two more steps. It's gonna take a BigY to find out any more.

There are people that are R1b>P312>DF27>etc, etc based on other testing but Geno 2.0 NextGen put them into U152 even though they were negative for U152.

There are people that are positive for the phylogenetic equivalents of R1b>M269>L23>Z2103>and another SNP I forget but the Geno 2.0 NextGen site told them they are just R1b>M269>L23.

GoldenHind has other examples at http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6338-A-Genuine-Geno-2-Mess-and-Mystery

lgmayka has an example also at http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6206-URGENT-Results-came-and-Help!!-NGE-2-0&p=133204&viewfull=1#post133204

The rate of incorrect placement of Geno 2.0 NextGen is too high even for R1b.

vettor
08-16-2016, 06:32 PM
That's not true. You have more SNPs that are yet to be named or to be tested by any other test besides BigY or FGC.

At least one of the people that created Semargl is also part of YFull which does the analysis of BigY tests and they created YFull for a reason - because BigY is important for learning more about the phylogeny of the Y-DNA tree. http://isogg.org/wiki/YFull

Go to https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS8489/ the click on info next to where it says formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp. You'll see that they have 13 more SNPs. Those SNPs are unnamed but they have been tested for them by 1000 Genomes another test. You will also see that there are 3 people in that group. One of them is even brand new and is from Cagliari. So between you, the person from Cagliari, the Puerto Rican, and the Iberian you will create a new subclade out of those 13 SNPs that might or might not include one or two of them. Downstream from them are two more that have been tested by BigY. They have a common ancestor in about the last 375 years. You are very unlikely to match them.

Thanks

food for thought

Maybe it is worthwhile for me to test as I only have common ancestors with
1 x catalan
1 x East-central Italian
3 x north Italians
2 x tyrolese
1 x baden-baden germany
1 x hessian germany

and some britsh isles ( usually welsh and irish only )

The 2 from north and south carolina USA which are common ~375 years ago are linked with me via ftdna .............I already spoke to these members who both state they are of scottish origins.

corner
08-16-2016, 07:03 PM
There are people that are R1b>P312>DF27>etc, etc based on other testing but Geno 2.0 NextGen put them into U152 even though they were negative for U152.Are the Z195- (ZZ12+) 'half' of DF27 getting any indication they are DF27+ from Geno 2.0 NextGen?

ArmandoR1b
08-19-2016, 06:32 PM
Are the Z195- (ZZ12+) 'half' of DF27 getting any indication they are DF27+ from Geno 2.0 NextGen?

I don't know. What I can say, after cross-referencing http://www.ytree.net/SNPIndex.php, is that there are about 120 subclades of ZZ12, including ZZ12_1, that are tested by Geno 2.0 NextGen but only about 81 aren't false positives or another type of problem. For instance ZZ12_1 shows as A for a U106 person but the ancestral is T and the derived is C. P312 and DF27 are not tested by Geno 2.0 NextGen.

These are the ZZ12 subclades that are possibly tested correctly -

FGC20761, CTS7204, CTS9952, BY837, BY1364, BY1717, PF6555, Z1513, FGC11413, FGC20750, FGC20756, FGC20748, FGC20769, CTS11087, CTS11565, BY1293, BY1356, BY1477, L617, DF81, PR4859, BY1380, BY2114, BY2533, PF6566, FGC22193, FGC20752, Z227, CTS7759, Z240, Z234, Z2567, BY834, FGC14936, BY1211, FGC20767, F1343, CTS1155, BY1485, BY1711, CTS7356, F1928, CTS9545, CTS6519, FGC14937, BY734, Y7352, FGC21119, Y7356, FGC21120, Y7354, FGC21122, Y7357, FGC21124, Y6954, FGC20554, BY1058, BY2285, Y5075, FGC22213, Y5076, FGC22190, A641, FGC19598, Y5058, FGC22195, Y5069, FGC22206, Y5077, FGC22203, FGC22225, Y5065, FGC22191, A431, Y3267, BY1246, FGC11394, FGC11398, FGC11378, FGC11379, CTS8308

jatt2016
09-02-2016, 07:26 PM
I my opinion and with on going personal interaction, testing at The Genographic Project 2.0+ is no better than spinning a roulette wheel.

Geno refuses to acknowledge any errors in it's results and FTDNA keep saying it's not our fault and the customer is left holding the bag. I blame both companies, Geno, for it's broke down chip and FTDNA for knowingly producing erratic results from said chip.

To separate itself from this debacle, one must first openingly admit the problem exists. FTDNA should sub-contact the work out, thereby separating it's association with Geno and avoid further tainting from this matter.


This is a paper that has studied microarray chips http://www.pnas.org/content/99/20/12975.full .
The point is that its mainly used for economical reasons otherwise it wouldnt be able to provide these tests to the public at an affordable price. Its impossible to provide these test at an equal price with either sanger sequencing or next gen sequencing (with the same accuracy).


You also fail to mention that BigY costs hundreds of dollars more and tests only a single thing and uses next gen testing. Why do you keep comparing it to all-purpose chips?

You seem to think Geno can not do a single thing correct ever and that FTDNA has zero problems of their own ever (then how come they had so many bugs in FamilyFinder they took months to get any matches to appear at all? granted they did take me of me well in the end).

Yes, some annoying things with Geno 2.0 NG test such as poor sampling for V mtDNA and not really all that much results for most compared to the old test and they did over sell the upgrade potential for haplogroups. And yeah for some they have even made errors (although even more often the haplo errors were on FTDNA transfer but not also on original site, although that has happened too).

But the way you hate on them 100% seems a bit over the top. Did they kick your dog?


Every chip of this size is going to have some SNPs that don't work properly, giving both false positives and false negatives. There needs to be a verification process to establish which reads are legitimate and which are garbage. And then you just ignore (don't report to the customer) any SNPs that don't give reliable results. My impression, based on this thread and other comments I've seen elsewhere, is that this new chip was rushed to market without going through any such verification process. They are essentially doing open beta testing to figure out which SNPs need to be filtered out and thrown away.


This is very much at the heart of what is going on.
Ideally, the customer should be properly informed about the outcome before purchasing a test.
Unfortunately emotion is brought into the mix by both individuals wanting to do the test as well as testing labs touting for business.
And this is a complex area.
I regularly spend an hour on the phone with one or other member of my family history society just going through what they hope to get and what test will best do it for them. In the end, it is often a matter of hoping that some distant cousin has also tested, or enough people with the same haplogroup.
People like Armando have been very patient with helping me, so my helping others is only giving forwards.
Thank you to them all, and to all the bloggers in this area.
And to this forum that enables us to help each other.

While so many people make their choice on the basis of 1)whichever test lab shouts loudest, and 2)the lowest price, in what is a complex field; it is inevitable that some individuals will continue to be led to expectations that are unrealistic.
I strongly advise potential testers to inform themselves in whatever aspect they want to research, to read what the tester says in FAQs and if necessary, to ask the tester what they can do for them.


I got more SNP both positive and negative from Geno 2 than any other company ...............I got more help from Geno 2 than anyone else............I got the first truly accurate ydna and mtdna than anyone else ...................and the worst is 23andme ......
In 23andme v3 I had T marker ( which I am ) since november 2015 they are using v4 format and have placed me under F marker , because my v3 SNP's are no longer in their v4 system. Utterly useless company


That was the first version of Geno 2.0 and not Geno 2.0 NextGen. There is a higher percentage of people that get an incorrect haplogroup or subclade with Geno 2.0 NextGen than did with the first version of Geno 2.0 or with 23andme. I haven't seen you post that you have had a BigY test so you could see that with a YFull or FGC analysis it would give you more positive and negatives than any other company. The FTDNA FMS tests more of the mtDNA than any other company except a much more expensive FGC test. With a BigY test you would probably create a new subclade at https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS8489/


23andme tests a far too low of a number of Y-DNA SNPs. There are less than 1,000 Y-DNA SNPs without no-calls. 884 in one of the files that I looked at. The first version of Geno 2.0 had about 12,000. Geno 2.0 NextGen probably has the same number or even less if all of the extra false positives and false negatives are removed. BigY has almost 36,000 SNPs in the VCF file the actual number of usable SNPs will be far less but a lot more than Geno 2.0.

Hi Folks,

As you know that the main purpose of this thread was to discuss the pitfalls/weaknesses in the overall testing platform that the commercial DNA testing companies use to assign haplogroups to their clients and share with each other our experiences. In context with my post no 1, I am going to eloborate with examples the weaknesses of the system. The called SNPS (results of your DNA Analysis) are compared to the DNA reference tree mainly ISOGG 2013 and based on the where these SNPS fit on the tree – a Haplogroup is assigned. Two main type of strategies are used in assigning haplogroups :

• Vertical Alignment of SNPS to the reference tree

• Horizontal alignment

• Combination of both

For the Sake of discussion lets say that we have three clients who tested their DNA with a commerical DNA testing company. Their DNA was analyzed by using the chip technology. For the simplicity purpose, let us consider an imaginary haplotree with only 6 Haplgroups i.e. Haplogroup A, Haplogroup B, Haplogroup C, Haplogroup E, Haplogroup D and Haplogroup G

Person 1 is tested positive for the following SNPS : M90, M92, M94, M95 and he fits well in to the green path of the Haplotree Diagram and hence he is assigned Haplogroup A2B1. This is perfect example of Vertical alignment of SNPS on the tree since all the SNPS follow a vertical pattern as drawn in green in the sketch.

Person 2 is tested positive for the following SNPS: P266, P230, P90 and P60 and he fits well in to the Purple path of the Haplogroup tree and therefore he is assigned haplgroup G. This is is perfect example of horizontal alignment of SNPs since the person was not tested positive for any other snps then the ones in purple.

Person 3 is tested positive for SNPs that fall erratic on the reference tree. He is positive for the SNPS L21, L22, L23, L25, L30, M200 and M201 (SNPS in red). As you would notice that there is no clear pattern of SNPs that can put him on the tree with confidence. Now the most cautious/conservative approach would be to assign him B ( where he has the most red SNPS) but the commercial algorithms used by various companies fall short of recognizing this dilemma and would wrongfully assign him a :

C : based on SNP L25
D2A : based on SNP M201 or
E1b basied on SNP L30

https://i.gyazo.com/6a9a32fe88d8a96b9a00b8a9028b018c.png

Most clients would not question the results and would not know the great amount of uncertainty that is involved in assigning haplogroups. You are on your own if your case is similar to person 3 and would not get much support from the vendors. It will be all guess work and less science!

jatt2016
09-02-2016, 07:39 PM
The Below is real life example of how my raw data ( from FTDNA/NatGeo) fits in various haplogroups.


I am a F if you consider the following tested positive SNPS below :
https://i.gyazo.com/2df89bb26419fe1dd3ba84c62f33c8c6.png

I am an H if you consider one tested positive SNP under H below:

https://i.gyazo.com/4a7bd4f5b6cc1741b3637fdb42b0559f.png

I am a J if you consider the following tested positive SNP below:

https://i.gyazo.com/55bc8b5828505d9766174be3f1d180c7.png

and an R if you consider the following tested positive SNPs below:

https://i.gyazo.com/2e2e455e63f49051df7dd5ec5c11502c.png

As, you would notice that these SNPs are erractic and no clear inference can be derived from these results.

In situations likes these most vendors take advantage of the client's ignorance or lack of knowledge in this field and erroneously assign a haplogroups without explaining the uncertainty factor to the client.

FTDNA and Genographic after trial and error, from J to R and then to H ( All of these can be questioned caz these are erratically spread on the tree). If I am placed on H, then it means that Geno/FTDNA has ignore the following positive SNPS that would have otherwise placed me in J or R

23andme was very cautious in assigning me a haplogroup and placed me in F. I discuss with them my case that how I was previously assigned a J then an R and finally an H by other vendors and 23andme explanation was that I do not have enough positive SNPS under H, J and R and that they assigned me F where I had the most positive SNPs. To be assigned an H, R or J I should show a pattern of SNPs and not just some isolated SNPs. 23andMe will assign you the haplogroup that you are the most similar to in regards to the reference tree.

Personally, I think that 23andme's explanation is more logical and scientific whereas, FTDNA and Genographic were just shooting arrows in the sky - guess game and taking advantage of client's ignorance and lack of understanding of the haplo assignment process.




The below is a list of tested positive SNPS that were ignored by FTDNA/Genographic when they assigned me an H



BY1357
BY136
BY1551
BY1585
BY20
BY2510
BY65
BY763
BY876
CTS10031
CTS10147
CTS10188
CTS10229
CTS103
CTS10300
CTS10428
CTS10433
CTS10448
CTS10552
CTS10572
CTS10615
CTS10648
CTS1066
CTS10723
CTS10745
CTS10761
CTS10821
CTS10847
CTS11012
CTS11041
CTS11071
CTS11088
CTS11126
CTS11148
CTS11190
CTS11261
CTS11354
CTS114
CTS1141
CTS1148
CTS11503
CTS11530
CTS1164
CTS11651
CTS11731
CTS11759
CTS11816
CTS11907
CTS11949
CTS1216
CTS12578
CTS12856
CTS12933
CTS12934
CTS12948
CTS12950
CTS1340
CTS1353
CTS1413
CTS1758
CTS1806
CTS202
CTS2067
CTS210
CTS2275
CTS2284
CTS2289
CTS2670
CTS2800
CTS305
CTS316
CTS3202
CTS3268
CTS3366
CTS3403
CTS3466
CTS347
CTS3519
CTS352
CTS3543
CTS3654
CTS3700
CTS3802
CTS3868
CTS4053
CTS4086
CTS4094
CTS4137
CTS4178
CTS4209
CTS4235
CTS4326
CTS4443
CTS4463
CTS4608
CTS4643
CTS4715
CTS4853
CTS5052
CTS5152
CTS5156
CTS5304
CTS5334
CTS5359
CTS5370
CTS585
CTS5860
CTS5933
CTS5939
CTS597
CTS5998
CTS6062
CTS6063
CTS6117
CTS6285
CTS6352
CTS636
CTS6403
CTS6438
CTS6447
CTS6449
CTS6468
CTS6481
CTS6506
CTS656
CTS6704
CTS6848
CTS687
CTS6918
CTS6967
CTS7022
CTS7147
CTS7186
CTS7227
CTS7266
CTS7275
CTS7299
CTS730
CTS7317
CTS7335
CTS7451
CTS7611
CTS7626
CTS7767
CTS7810
CTS7929
CTS8126
CTS8203
CTS8216
CTS8300
CTS8440
CTS8506
CTS8521
CTS860
CTS8645
CTS8723
CTS8815
CTS9056
CTS9154
CTS9325
CTS9387
CTS9471
CTS9518
CTS9525
CTS9539
CTS9558
CTS97
CTS9894
CTS9900
CTS9925
CTS9975
DF109
F1013
F1024
F1055
F1127
F1207
F1291
F1302
F1329
F1412
F1442
F1474
F1540
F1567
F1703
F1704
F1712
F1714
F1753
F1767
F1796
F1848
F1874
F188
F1899
F1924
F1946
F1956
F2018
F2048
F2142
F2155
F2165
F2224
F2236
F2304
F2370
F2402
F2516
F2558
F2587
F2654
F2688
F2724
F2742
F2753
F2767
F2837
F287
F2873
F2947
F2961
F2985
F2990
F3048
F3056
F3111
F313
F3136
F3195
F3335
F3368
F3402
F3422
F3444
F3491
F3556
F3582
F3595
F3625
F3632
F3692
F3697
F371
F3735
F3806
F3869
F3892
F3907
F3949
F3956
F3994
F4003
F4042
F4111
F4176
F4188
F4244
F4257
F4282
F4338
F489
F492
F526
F557
F565
F646
F716
F719
F736
F741
F836
F837
F862
F896
F995
FGC11678
FGC11897
FGC12120
FGC12627
FGC13364
FGC16362
FGC16683
FGC1721
FGC20866
FGC20874
FGC28639
FGC29572
FGC3718
FGC6948
K257
K386
L1186
L253
L294
L325
L387
L442
L484
L492
L498
L503
L556
L782
L817
L840
L99 (Geno 2.0 results are erratic for this SNP)
M116
M129
M171
M238
M251
M262
M275
M288
M367
M9574
M9588
N4
P102
P117
P118
P268
P269
P289
P52
P59
P84
P91
PAGES00048
PAGES00049
PAGES00081
PAGES00101
PAGES00105
PF1015
PF1026
PF1031
PF1085
PF1097
PF1141
PF1147
PF1152
PF1164
PF1169
PF121
PF1232
PF1252
PF1269
PF1270
PF1279
PF1283
PF133
PF1368
PF147
PF1562
PF1577
PF1587
PF22
PF228
PF2334
PF2481
PF2495
PF2579
PF2593
PF2611
PF2624
PF2635
PF2643
PF2745
PF276
PF288
PF293
PF3051
PF3086
PF3107 (Geno 2.0 results are erratic for this SNP)
PF3220
PF328
PF3298
PF3320
PF3823
PF3890
PF3964
PF3986
PF4105
PF4246
PF4533
PF4573
PF4576
PF4589
PF4592
PF4647
PF4720
PF4957
PF5014
PF5122
PF535
PF5381
PF5735
PF5787
PF5792
PF601 (mis-called by FTDNA?)
PF6063
PF625
PF6275
PF6286
PF6300
PF6314
PF6369
PF644
PF6673
PF668
PF671
PF679
PF6864
PF698
PF700
PF7067
PF7328
PF7341
PF7374
PF7527
PF7557
PF794
PF806
PF829
PF888
PF907
PF93
PF946
PF966
PF968
PF971
PF997
PR805
S7123
SK1247
SK1410
V186
V205
V21
V216
V227
V79
V90
V94
Y1038
Y1049
Y1083
Y1113
Y1122
Y32
Y4864
Y5272
Y5305
Y5759
Y6181
Y763
YP321
YSC0000081
YSC0000150
YSC0000216
YSC0000292
YSC0001071
Z11180
Z1149
Z14303
Z1456
Z1476
Z1483
Z1504
Z1518
Z1589
Z1593
Z1616
Z17153
Z18140
Z1835
Z1975
Z315
Z3723
Z39
Z477
Z625
Z767
Z966
ZS1727
RS12116413
RS16980396
RS16980499
RS17842387
RS2032652
RS2075640
RS35249440
RS35407486
RS7067237
RS7892924
RS7893044
RS9306845
RS9306848
RS9785670
RS9785743
RS9785853
RS9785905
RS9786082
RS9786181
RS9786247
RS9786290
RS9786325
RS9786774
BY1142

jatt2016
09-02-2016, 07:42 PM
My Conclusion :

The commerical testing falls short of accuracy when it comes to assigning haplgroups to non european populations mainly due to lack of adequate DNA samples from these groups. The Y DNA tree is incomplete and does not capture all ethnic groups. Many of the clients are assigned wrong/inaccurate haplgroups without them being aware of it.

A complete and accurate Y-Haplo tree that fits all populations/ethnic groups looks undoable with the technology and resources available at this point in time.

TigerMW
09-08-2016, 03:16 PM
The 2001 paper referenced criticizing a MicroARRAY technology does not apply and should not be cited on this topic unless some how there is an historical reference. It was received May 2001 so much of the work for it may have been done in 2000.

I don't know what or how the National Geographic Society's (they go by NGS too) Geno 2.0 NG is done but I absolutely agree it is full of errors.

I can say that SNP Packs are running on a MassARRAY technology (not "Micro"), and this MassARRAY technology is much more modern than 2000 and pre-2000 stuff. FTDNA also has a vetting process on SNPs for the Packs. Regardless, sometimes project admins want marginal SNPs in packs to see if they will work.

TigerMW
09-08-2016, 03:18 PM
My Conclusion :

The commerical testing falls short of accuracy when it comes to assigning haplgroups to non european populations mainly due to lack of adequate DNA samples from these groups. The Y DNA tree is incomplete and does not capture all ethnic groups. .... .

The solution is get more testers from those regions and ethnic groups. Someone has to pay. A leader in this is your favorite - the National Geographic Society and their National Genographic Project. I agree there are problems but you should probably work with them to blacklist SNPs as is appropriate and try to redirect them to populations you are interested in, or help them with donations for the National Genographic Project. My guess is you can write off donations on your taxes to the project.

Amerijoe
09-08-2016, 05:14 PM
The solution is get more testers from those regions and ethnic groups. Someone has to pay. A leader in this is your favorite - the National Geographic Society and their National Genographic Project. I agree there are problems but you should probably work with them to blacklist SNPs as is appropriate and try to redirect them to populations you are interested in, or help them with donations for the National Genographic Project. My guess is you can write off donations on your taxes to the project.

I also am having an ongoing dialogue about an erroneous mtdna result. I'm quite confident it will be corrected even as frustrating a process on responsibility as it has become. Pride supersedes reason.

I totally agree with supporting science. So many grants have been established to push results in the direction of those with the most to gain. The little guy, me and you for an example, are used as tools to accomplish this mean. Sorry for the digress, but it saddens me to witness such a rise in the publication inferior science studies. Now, that money you were going to donate to the study of climate change on the sex habits of the dung nettle, donate it to a just cause or NG or find someone through your group administrated who needs a helping hand. Being the helping hand gave me the best feeling.:)

Judith
09-18-2016, 09:36 PM
Thank you Jatt for raising this issue, it has highlighted numerous aspects of concern that the naive customer (like myself) is totally unaware of.