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raspberry
08-10-2016, 08:38 PM
Hello, I am an Anatolian Arab from South-East Anatolia. I made a y-37 markers test on familytreedna. My str-values are: 13,24,15,10,13-13,12,13,12,12,13,28,15,9-9,11,11,27,14,17,28,14-14-16-17,11,11,23-23,15,16,17,16,35-36,13,11 :
The values are unusual and this is also the reason why Familytreedna couldnt determine my haplogroup. After that familytreedna ordered a Backbonetest for me and now I have got my y-Dna haplogroup and it is R-M343. It is unusual because my tribe originates from central Arabia (yes but it seems like my paternal ancestors not..). So I wanted to ask what is behind my ethniticy on my paternal site.
The weird thing is that several different haplogroup predictors said that I am probably Haplogroup Q.
10904
This is from nevgen.
10905
And this one is from hrpg´s prediction.
Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows:
R1b-C.Europe =>50% Q-M242-Group5 =>24% Q-Cluster1 =>7% R1a1-English =>6% R1b-Ub =>5% R1b-North/South 1 =>4% J1-M267 =>1% Q-M242-Main =>1% R1b-S.Irish =>1% R1b-Irish/Continental =>1%
And the last one is from Jim Cullen's Haplogroup Predictor. What I do not understand on that site is that the percentages change when I click on "predict Haplogroup".

swid
08-10-2016, 09:06 PM
Welcome!

First off, it's good that Family Tree DNA ran a backbone SNP test for your results; you can trust test result over the various haplogroup predictors on the Internet. Many of them haven't been updated for quite some time and are generally (but not always) intended for those with common Western European haplogroups.

R1b isn't particularly common in Arabia, but it's found there. You'll find a number of such results in the R1b Basal Subclades Family Tree DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1bBasalSubclades?iframe=yresults); you should join that project if you're not already a member.

Have your DNA matches (if you have them) at FTDNA tested any SNPs beyond M343? If so, that may provide some more information about your ancestry.

raspberry
08-10-2016, 09:18 PM
The sad thing is that I have no matches in the entire database..

wandering_amorite
08-10-2016, 09:52 PM
Anatolian Arab from where? I've spent a decent amount of time in Antakya, Urfa, Midyat, and Diyarbakir, and am fascinated by the area's ethnic history.

MfA
08-10-2016, 09:53 PM
Congrats on your results and welcome to the site raspberry.

I was gonna say you're probably L584 like rest of the people on tje region (Armenians, Kurds, Syriacs) but having zero STR match in the database complicates this. And you might be indeed M343*. M343* is not a frequent haplogroup its below 5% anywhere but tops in Iranians and particularly Kurds compared to rest of people in the region who are mostly L584, having hailed from a predominantly Kurdish area that would only make sense.

I've just seen smal is lurking this thread hopefully he can say something. Anywaythere's no doubt you're R1b, FTDNA backbone test is solid. You should try a SNP package, or you can order 23andMe and get your further downclade on top of that have your autosomal dna results.

Good luck on your quest.

raspberry
08-10-2016, 09:57 PM
Anatolian Arab from where? I've spent a decent amount of time in Antakya, Urfa, Midyat, and Diyarbakir, and am fascinated by the area's ethnic history.

I am from an arabic village between Mardin and Diyarbakir ("abode of Bakr" translated from arabic to english: named after the central arabian tribe of Bani Bakr ibn Wa´il wich settled there already in pre-islamic times).
Midyat is pretty near to my village. I am from the same province (Mardin). But the next bigger city is called Sav(w)ur (maybe you know also that city)

smal
08-10-2016, 10:03 PM
The sad thing is that I have no matches in the entire database..
You need to test for V88 and L389 (or R1b-M343 Backbone SNP Pack). Having results for these markers we will be able to find the correct matches for you.


You'll find a number of such results in the R1b Basal Subclades Family Tree DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1bBasalSubclades?iframe=yresults)
Please join our project.

raspberry
08-10-2016, 10:04 PM
Yes of course it would be possible but the problem is that the most frequent haplogroups of the Kurds are:
J2:23,6%
E:12,6%
J1:11,8%
R1b:11,2%
R1a:10,6%
R2:6,9%
I:6,0%
T:5,4%
G:5,0%
F:2,8%
L:2,1%
P:0,9%
C:0,5%
H:0,4%
Q:0,1%
So as you can see, the kurds are not mostly from R1b..
Someone from Eupedia suggested that I am maybe from a new branch of R1b wich is not known until now ..

raspberry
08-10-2016, 10:05 PM
You need to test for V88 and L389 (or R1b-M343 Backbone SNP Pack). Having results for these markers we will be able to find the correct matches for you.


Please join our project.

I joined, my kit number is 501793

Abd.H
08-10-2016, 10:18 PM
Welcome
there are many results among Iraqi Arabs which have R1b ,but they are mainly R-M269 ,in Arab T project ,there are 7 results having R1b on R-M269 https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Arab_T/default.aspx?section=yresults
However, what is your presumed tribe ?
also it is normal to have no matches in the entire database , also I don't have any match in the entire database and I am Syrian Arab from north west Syria.

raspberry
08-10-2016, 10:24 PM
Welcome
there are many results among Iraqi Arabs which have R1b ,but they are mainly R-M269 ,in Arab T project ,there are 7 results having R1b on R-M269 https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Arab_T/default.aspx?section=yresults
However, what is your presumed tribe ?
also it is normal to have no matches in the entire database , also I don't have any matches in the entire database and I am Syrian Arab from north west Syria.

I am probably a mix of many tribes but as far as I know I am from Bani Shayban from central Arabia. But also the Bani Taghlib, Bani rabiaa in general are close to my family.
From Wikipedia Banu Shayban: "The Banu Shayban were an Arab tribe, a branch of the Bakr ibn Wa'il group. Throughout the early Islamic era, the tribe was settled chiefly in the Jazira, and played an important role in its history. [...]
In the pre-Islamic period, the Shayban with their flocks wandered according to the seasons, wintering in Jadiyya in the Najd and moving to the fertile lowlands around the Euphrates for the summer, ranging from the Jazira in the north to lower Iraq and the shores of the Persian Gulf.[...] But still Arabs from the Diyar Bakr region in Turkey are tracing their tribal origins back to this tribe. Some families are even claiming descendant from the famous Isa ibn al-Shaykh al-Shaybani line. However the Banu Shayban of Southeastern Anatolia are organized loose and they do not have a Sheikh as a head of their tribe, like it is common in Arab countries."
"The governorship of Armenia included not only Armenia proper, but also Azerbaijan and the Diyar Bakr in the Jazira,[4] the latter being the main settlement area of the Shayban and Isa's own homeland."

ADW_1981
08-10-2016, 10:31 PM
Hello, I am an Anatolian Arab from South-East Anatolia. I made a y-37 markers test on familytreedna. My str-values are: 13,24,15,10,13-13,12,13,12,12,13,28,15,9-9,11,11,27,14,17,28,14-14-16-17,11,11,23-23,15,16,17,16,35-36,13,11 :
The values are unusual and this is also the reason why Familytreedna couldnt dtermine my haplogroup. After that familytreedna ordered a Backbonetest for me and now I have got my y-Dna haplogroup and it is R-M343. It is unusual because my tribe originates from central Arabia (yes but it seems like my paternal ancestors not..). So I wanted to ask what is behind my ethniticy on my paternal site.
The weird thing is that several different haplogroup predictors said that I am probably Haplogroup Q.
10904
This is from nevgen.
10905
And this one is from hrpg´s prediction.
Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows:
R1b-C.Europe =>50% Q-M242-Group5 =>24% Q-Cluster1 =>7% R1a1-English =>6% R1b-Ub =>5% R1b-North/South 1 =>4% J1-M267 =>1% Q-M242-Main =>1% R1b-S.Irish =>1% R1b-Irish/Continental =>1%
And the last one is from Jim Cullen's Haplogroup Predictor. What I do not understand on that site is that the percentages change when I click on "predict Haplogroup".

High possibility to be R1b-V88 from other haplotypes I have seen which is common among Jews, Arabs, and Semitic speakers in Africa and throughout the Middle East.

smal
08-10-2016, 10:31 PM
I joined, my kit number is 501793

Your closest match is 149191 Anonymous Armenian R1b1* (alpha) from Turkey. Probably, V88 will be negative. At the moment, the testing for L389 is crucial to find correct position in tree.

raspberry
08-10-2016, 10:35 PM
Your closest match is 149191 Anonymous Armenian R1b1* (alpha) from Turkey. Probably, V88 will be negative. At the moment, the testing for L389 is crucial to find correct position in tree.
So there is no other way than paying 99$?

Abd.H
08-10-2016, 10:45 PM
You can try this site http://www.semargl.me/
your closest match according to this site for 25 markers is 223048 but he is the third match for 37 markers and he is probably from arabian background
and your closest match for 37 markers is 181545 from Armenia

10909
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10911

smal
08-10-2016, 10:46 PM
So there is no other way than paying 99$?
You can test only for L389. If it is positive you'll have variants for further analysis. If it is negative you belong to new branch. For new branch there is only one way - BigY.

raspberry
08-10-2016, 10:47 PM
You can try this site http://www.semargl.me/
your closest match according to this site for 25 markers is 223048 but he is the third match for 37 markers and he is probably from arabian background
and your closest match for 37 markers is 181545 from Armenia

10909
10910
10911
I have also joined that group. Thank you.

MfA
08-10-2016, 10:50 PM
Yes of course it would be possible but the problem is that the most frequent haplogroups of the Kurds are:
J2:23,6%
E:12,6%
J1:11,8%
R1b:11,2%
R1a:10,6%
R2:6,9%
I:6,0%
T:5,4%
G:5,0%
F:2,8%
L:2,1%
P:0,9%
C:0,5%
H:0,4%
Q:0,1%
So as you can see, the kurds are not mostly from R1b..
Someone from Eupedia suggested that I am maybe from a new branch of R1b wich is not known until now ..

Not sure why you posted this but do you mean only J2 people can be Kurds? That would be news to me.

Anyway smal's comment is inline with my suggestion. Hopefully you'd take a family finder in future as well, an Arab result from the region would be insightful.

raspberry
08-10-2016, 10:51 PM
You can test only for L389. If it is positive you'll have variants for further analysis. If it is negative you belong to new branch. For new branch there is only one way - BigY.

I would be ready to pay that 39$, but if it is negative, I wouldnt be able the afford the Big-Y so I do not know what I should do..

smal
08-10-2016, 11:04 PM
I would be ready to pay that 39$, but if it is negative, I wouldnt be able the afford the Big-Y so I do not know what I should do..

Of course, without Big Y we'll be not able to develop new branch for you. However, having L389 we at least can correctly position your haplotype on the current tree. This will be important for a prediction of your matches in future.

raspberry
08-10-2016, 11:17 PM
Of course, without Big Y we'll be not able to develop new branch for you. However, having L389 we at least can correctly position your haplotype on the current tree. This will be important for a prediction of your matches in future.
If L389 is negative that would mean that I belong to a new branch and what would be my benefits after I would buy big-y? Would I know anything more about my origin/ethnicity?

raspberry
08-11-2016, 05:17 PM
Someone on an other Forum suggested that I am from V88 because DYS385 13-13 seems very common to that branch. What do you think?

Abd.H
08-12-2016, 12:29 AM
If L389 is negative that would mean that I belong to a new branch and what would be my benefits after I would buy big-y? Would I know anything more about my origin/ethnicity?


Someone on an other Forum suggested that I am from V88 because DYS385 13-13 seems very common to that branch. What do you think?

I think if you order R1b - M343 Backbone SNP Pack it tests 118 SNPs including v88 and L389 ,only for 99 usd , it is too much better than paying 39 usd just for a single SNP
10925
And to know more about your ethnicity it will be great if you order Family Finder test , because now it costs only 69 usd instead of 99 usd ,because it is now in the Summer Sale , and this is the cheapest price ever .

raspberry
08-12-2016, 12:36 PM
I think if you order R1b - M343 Backbone SNP Pack it tests 118 SNPs including v88 and L389 ,only for 99 usd , it is too much better than paying 39 usd just for a single SNP
10925
And to know more about your ethnicity it will be great if you order Family Finder test , because now it costs only 69 usd instead of 99 usd ,because it is now in the Summer Sale , and this is the cheapest price ever .

I will probably buy familyfinder first.. But yes Snp Pack would be more worth the price. By the way do you live in syria despite the war?

Afshar
08-12-2016, 02:22 PM
A snp pack or bigy is the best option, family finder will not give more insight. I would go with the snp pack.

Abd.H
08-12-2016, 02:51 PM
By the way do you live in syria despite the war?
Actually , I have left Syria 3 years ago ,since Mid-2013 . :pout:

raspberry
08-12-2016, 06:20 PM
A snp pack or bigy is the best option, family finder will not give more insight. I would go with the snp pack.

I think I will leave Familytreedna because the prices are too high, the service quality is bad and everything works slow and results stay unexplained. I change to 23andMe because the price is much less (139$), but I get a defined haplogroup (for example: R1b-V88) on paternal and mother´s site. By the way I get a genetic raw data wich I can transfer to probably the best genetic site named WeGene (it is a chinese site) for free. On this site they can show than how much for example: Kurdish, Saudi or african I am and genetic diseases etc.

Afshar
08-12-2016, 06:37 PM
I think I will leave Familytreedna because the prices are too high, the service quality is bad and everything works slow and results stay unexplained. I change to 23andMe because the price is much less (139$), but I get a defined haplogroup (for example: R1b-V88) on paternal and mother´s site. By the way I get a genetic raw data wich I can transfer to probably the best genetic site name WeGene (it is a chinese site) for free. On this site they can show than how much for example: Kurdish, Saudi or african I am..

Yes but dont forget 23andme uses a chip and tests only selected (maybe old) snps and there is no way to get complete y sequencing there, so at the end you Still have question marks.

Agamemnon
08-12-2016, 06:46 PM
FTDNA is the best option if you wanna find more about your paternal lineage.

ADW_1981
08-12-2016, 07:22 PM
I think I will leave Familytreedna because the prices are too high, the service quality is bad and everything works slow and results stay unexplained. I change to 23andMe because the price is much less (139$), but I get a defined haplogroup (for example: R1b-V88) on paternal and mother´s site. By the way I get a genetic raw data wich I can transfer to probably the best genetic site named WeGene (it is a chinese site) for free. On this site they can show than how much for example: Kurdish, Saudi or african I am and genetic diseases etc.

I would not recommend 23andMe for haplogroup assignment. The best advice was from Abd.H who suggested the $99 SNP pack which will determine your specific subclade. You might get lucky and have an assignment of R1b1c at 23andMe which would likely be V88 on the old nomenclature, but sometimes there are no calls, and sometimes the SNP isn't on the chip (the latest is version 4) at all. I'm not an expert on the chips or even the science, but FTDNA is the best inexpensive choice here for a reliable result.

raspberry
08-12-2016, 07:31 PM
I have decided to do no further test anymore because all of this is too expensive and has no value. And for what is the donated money in familytreedna groups for? I thought that would be used to make further research into the members.. Maybe in a few years this genetics branch will evolve further and doesnt stay so money centric..

ADW_1981
08-12-2016, 07:57 PM
I have decided to do no further test anymore because all of this is too expensive and has no value. And for what is the donated money in familytreedna groups for? I thought that would be used to make further research into the members.. Maybe in a few years this genetics branch will evolve further and doesnt stay so money centric.. By the way I bought mt-DNA full sequence and didnt get any Coding Region wich is the most important thing to determine to wich branch of mt mt-dna haplogroup H I belong. I wrote an E-Mail and still havent got any answer from Familytreedna.. This is a good example wich shows their (Familytreedna´s) working-moral.

Is it possible that you belong to a new branch of H? (ie: unclassified or has no number yet?)

raspberry
08-12-2016, 08:11 PM
Is it possible that you belong to a new branch of H? (ie: unclassified or has no number yet?)
I dont know but it is not unusual that familytreedna doesnt define your mt dna haplogroup.. I Joined Mt-dna H group, most of them were unclassified.. I have even problems trusting Familytreedna because:I wrote familytreedna on the 15th July that I still dont have a predicted haplogroup although my results are completed since 8th of July. After that familytreedna ordered a Backbone test for me (for free). The ordered Backbone test wasnt listed on my order history after that. So 4 days ago I asked them when my Prediction will be finished and I got the answer "It can take a few weeks. I'd expect a haplogroup in approximately a week or two."
A short time after that (a few minutes later) I looked on my familytreedna page and I got my haplogroup R-M343, on the same day. Also the Backbone test wasnt listed on my order-history until the haplogroup was listed. Could it be that something went wrong? I asked them on Facebook.. Maybe he just said to me that he will order a Backbone test but never did..
10934
The result of HRPG was Q on equal priors.
This is what the snp´s csv file says:
"SnpName","Positive","Test"
"M343","True","Y-HAP-Backbone"
Wouldnt also be the other negative tested snp names listed?

smal
08-12-2016, 09:02 PM
I have decided to do no further test anymore because all of this is too expensive and has no value.
That would be very sad. Without SNP testing your STR data will have no sense because STRs evolve too fast and can reveal incorrect matches due to homoplasy. However, your data are very interesting and can help to understand early stages of the R1b haplogroup formation. Your closest match was tested negative for V88, but a status of L389 is not clear. The testing for L389 can really help us to define correctly a group of haplotypes which you belong to.

raspberry
08-12-2016, 09:38 PM
That would be very sad. Without SNP testing your STR data will have no sense because STRs evolve too fast and can reveal incorrect matches due to homoplasy. However, your data are very interesting and can help to understand early stages of the R1b haplogroup formation. Your closest match was tested negative for V88, but a status of L389 is not clear. The testing for L389 can really help us to define correctly a group of haplotypes which you belong to.
Yes but I payed already enough (and still dont know nothing more than before these tests) . Yes it can help science to understand the early stages of R1b, but why should I pay for it? If science would fund it than I would have no problem with doing it.

smal
08-12-2016, 10:29 PM
Yes but I payed already enough (and still dont know nothing more than before these tests) . Yes it can help science to understand the early stages of R1b, but why should I pay for it? If science would fund it than I would have no problem with doing it.

Science is not a god that will do everything for you. All we do in our community is an attempt to understand our origin. There is no other sense to do tests. This is science. Most of the current ISOGG tree is based on private testing.

raspberry
08-12-2016, 10:50 PM
Science is not a god that will do everything for you. All we do in our community is an attempt to understand our origin. There is no other sense to do tests. This is science. Most of the current ISOGG tree is based on private testing.
Yes but did I pay 200$ so I know that I am R1b and nothing more? No matches, no ancestral Origin, nothing. Lets say I would buy that snp test and if it is positive, what more would it say about my origins? Probably nothing more than now..

Abd.H
08-12-2016, 11:53 PM
Yes but did I pay 200$ so I know that I am R1b and nothing more? No matches, no ancestral Origin, nothing. Lets say I would buy that snp test and if it is positive, what more would it say about my origins? Probably nothing more than now..

This case is normal for people where just few people are tested.
I paid 280$ for Y67 and the only result I had that I am J1 and no matches, no ancestral Origin .
Then I paid 119$ for J1 SNP pack . In total I paid 400$ , to detect my final subclade.
but in your case if you want to go further the best choice is the SNP pack
Anyway ,in our cases ,there are 2 possibilities ,maybe our paternal lineage suffered difficult conditions impeded the increasing their descendants number ,or maybe just few people are tested

raspberry
08-13-2016, 01:23 PM
Why are snp tests available in haplogroups wich I dont even belong? I thought because I belong to R-M343 all other haplogroups should be excluded..
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10940
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I thought a Backbone test gives me 100% confidence to wich haplogroup I belong but why are snps of other haplogroup still available for testing?

raspberry
08-13-2016, 01:38 PM
I found some from the Arab tribes group and he is also from the same tribe as me (Banu Shayban):
Al-Shaibani Unknown Origin J-ZS4682 12 23 14 11 13-19 11 17 11 13 11 30 18 8-9 12 11 26 14 21 25 13-14-16-18 10 10 22-22 14 14 18 18 34-35 11 10
And this snp test is available for me..
-
There are so many from the Mardin province who belong to J1.. Seems like only not me:
Al-Muhallamiya المحلمية ربيعة Turkey J-FGC4453
Omairat Muhallamiya عميرات المحلمية Turkey J-FGC4453
Harb-Mukhashny مخاشن ربيعة المحلمية Turkey J-FGC4453
Omeirat حفيد الشيخ محمود Turkey J-FGC4453
All are Arabs from the Mardin province..

smal
08-13-2016, 09:14 PM
Why are snp tests available in haplogroups wich I dont even belong? I thought because I belong to R-M343 all other haplogroups should be excluded..

I thought a Backbone test gives me 100% confidence to wich haplogroup I belong but why are snps of other haplogroup still available for testing?

A mutation rate is different for each SNP. Some SNPs can mutate more fast. They can appear in different haplogroups. In your case all such active markers are in the R1b FTDNA haplotree too. And M343 is a very reliable marker and there are no doubts that you have R1b haplogroup.

raspberry
08-13-2016, 09:33 PM
A mutation rate is different for each SNP. Some SNPs can mutate more fast. They can appear in different haplogroups. In your case all such active markers are in the R1b FTDNA haplotree too. And M343 is a very reliable marker and there are no doubts that you have R1b haplogroup.

Is there anyway to pay with PayPal on familytreedna and if yes how? I think I will buy the Snp Pack

Joe B
08-13-2016, 10:19 PM
Someone on an other Forum suggested that I am from V88 because DYS385 13-13 seems very common to that branch. What do you think?
DYS388=13 is more common in the R1b-M343, M278 > L754 > L389 folks. If you are going to go the one SNP at a time phylogenetic bracketing method, testing for L389 is the best place to start the process of finding your place on the human haplotree. L389 negative or positive are equally informative. You've gotten the best advice from smal, the foremost authority for R1b Basal phylogenetics. This really is a community effort.

FTDNA is one place you can test for L389. It's available for $39 as a single test. A better option would be the R1b - M343 Backbone SNP Pack for $99. That would cover both L389 and V88. The best option with FTDNA is next generation sequencing (NGS) with the Big Y test. NGS testing basically finds Y SNPs from Y-DNA Adam to the present, you. Big Y does this with ~10,000,000 Y-DNA Base Pair coverage. Cost is $575 with discounts of $100 now and then.

YSEQ is a great company for individual SNP testing. Located in Berlin, they are very quick and flexible. SNP tests are only $17.50. L389 can be added to their catalog with “Wish a SNP” at nominal cost of $1.00 for primers and set-up. https://www.yseq.net/index.php

Full Genomes Corporation offers really great next generation sequencing (NGS) with their Y Elite 2.1 product. Y Elite 2.1 is $795 and that's a little more expensive than Big Y. According to Full Genomes, Y Elite 2.1 has a more advanced product with it's better coverage of the Y, length coverage: 13.8+ megabases (callable) (a conservative estimate); 22.0+ megabases covered. Read length is longer with 150 - 250 base pairs. You may be able to get a pretty good mitochondrial call with third party analysis. https://www.fullgenomes.com/

Most people in the R1b Basal subgroups with NGS testing (Big Y, Y Elite 2.1) have submitted those results to YFull for futher analysis for $50. They have an interesting haplotree that includes time to most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) estimates and are able to extract around 500 STRs from your data. They can also give you a MtDNA call with Y Elite 2.1 raw data. https://www.yfull.com/


Yes but did I pay 200$ so I know that I am R1b and nothing more? No matches, no ancestral Origin, nothing. Lets say I would buy that snp test and if it is positive, what more would it say about my origins? Probably nothing more than now..
Thank you for the testing you have done. You loosely found out that your likely Y-line makes perfect sense for your family history and geography. The STR testing that you've done is only really good for family matches in the more recent several hundred years. And then only if they belong to the same surname or SNP tested haplogroup.

One way or another, please test SNP L389 so you can start the process of finding your branch on the human phylogenetic tree. Really consider being a pioneer for your undeveloped Y branch by taking either the Big Y or Y Elite 2.1 test. This will discover the mutations (SNPs) that define your male lineage. That would be a great contribution to the Anatolian Arab community and it's genetic heritage. Your testing will inspire more testing and eventual matches to you. This is how new branches to the human phylogenetic tre are built and it happens all the time.

Joe B
08-13-2016, 10:23 PM
Is there anyway to pay with PayPal on familytreedna and if yes how? I think I will buy the Snp Pack
Thank you raspberry!

FTDNA -
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Please contact customer service by completing and submitting our contact form. Make sure to select Billing / Change order on the drop-down list.
https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/ftdna/ordering/

raspberry
08-14-2016, 08:51 AM
DYS388=13 is more common in the R1b-M343, M278 > L754 > L389 folks. If you are going to go the one SNP at a time phylogenetic bracketing method, testing for L389 is the best place to start the process of finding your place on the human haplotree. L389 negative or positive are equally informative. You've gotten the best advice from smal, the foremost authority for R1b Basal phylogenetics. This really is a community effort.

FTDNA is one place you can test for L389. It's available for $39 as a single test. A better option would be the R1b - M343 Backbone SNP Pack for $99. That would cover both L389 and V88. The best option with FTDNA is next generation sequencing (NGS) with the Big Y test. NGS testing basically finds Y SNPs from Y-DNA Adam to the present, you. Big Y does this with ~10,000,000 Y-DNA Base Pair coverage. Cost is $575 with discounts of $100 now and then.

YSEQ is a great company for individual SNP testing. Located in Berlin, they are very quick and flexible. SNP tests are only $17.50. L389 can be added to their catalog with “Wish a SNP” at nominal cost of $1.00 for primers and set-up. https://www.yseq.net/index.php

Full Genomes Corporation offers really great next generation sequencing (NGS) with their Y Elite 2.1 product. Y Elite 2.1 is $795 and that's a little more expensive than Big Y. According to Full Genomes, Y Elite 2.1 has a more advanced product with it's better coverage of the Y, length coverage: 13.8+ megabases (callable) (a conservative estimate); 22.0+ megabases covered. Read length is longer with 150 - 250 base pairs. You may be able to get a pretty good mitochondrial call with third party analysis. https://www.fullgenomes.com/

Most people in the R1b Basal subgroups with NGS testing (Big Y, Y Elite 2.1) have submitted those results to YFull for futher analysis for $50. They have an interesting haplotree that includes time to most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) estimates and are able to extract around 500 STRs from your data. They can also give you a MtDNA call with Y Elite 2.1 raw data. https://www.yfull.com/


Thank you for the testing you have done. You loosely found out that your likely Y-line makes perfect sense for your family history and geography. The STR testing that you've done is only really good for family matches in the more recent several hundred years. And then only if they belong to the same surname or SNP tested haplogroup.

One way or another, please test SNP L389 so you can start the process of finding your branch on the human phylogenetic tree. Really consider being a pioneer for your undeveloped Y branch by taking either the Big Y or Y Elite 2.1 test. This will discover the mutations (SNPs) that define your male lineage. That would be a great contribution to the Anatolian Arab community and it's genetic heritage. Your testing will inspire more testing and eventual matches to you. This is how new branches to the human phylogenetic tre are built and it happens all the time.

Thank you for your explanation in detail. I bought the "wish a snp" on the german site.. Could it be that my ancestors migrated there (to South-East Anatolia) from another place because I mean the example Omairat family wich I posted is from a village wich is only 13kms away from mine and they are all J-FGC4453.. We could be "blood" relatives ?

Joe B
08-14-2016, 08:59 PM
Thank you for your explanation in detail. I bought the "wish a snp" on the german site.. Could it be that they migrated there from another place because I mean the example Omairat family wich I posted is from a village wich is only 13kms away from mine and they are all J-FGC4453.. ?

My guess is that the Omairat family have a common male ancestor if they are all J-FGC4453.
YFull has TMRCA estimates from a Saudi and Qatarian that show J-FGC4453 is not that old.

J-FGC4451 (age: 1828 ybp) Formula: (1127+2529)/2 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC4453/

We'll know more about your branch once we figure out what it is. There is a renewed interest to do more complete testing of R1b haplotypes from all the populations of SW Asia. There are likely new branches to the R1b phylogenetic haplotree to be found there.

raspberry
08-15-2016, 12:32 PM
My guess is that the Omairat family have a common male ancestor if they are all J-FGC4453.
YFull has TMRCA estimates from a Saudi and Qatarian that show J-FGC4453 is not that old.

J-FGC4451 (age: 1828 ybp) Formula: (1127+2529)/2 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC4453/

We'll know more about your branch once we figure out what it is. There is a renewed interest to do more complete testing of R1b haplotypes from all the populations of SW Asia. There are likely new branches to the R1b phylogenetic haplotree to be found there.

It is weird that people who bought y-12 markers on ftdna get their subclade to know.. I bought y-37 markers but only know that I am R1b.. Does anyone know the reason? And why are my str-values so unequally ( some parts are similar to haplogroup Q, some to R1a, some to J-M267, some to R1b)?

Joe B
08-15-2016, 05:06 PM
It is weird that people who bought y-12 markers on ftdna get their subclade to know.. I bought y-37 markers but only know that I am R1b.. Does anyone know the reason? And why are my str-values so unequally ( some parts are similar to haplogroup Q, some to R1a, some to J-M267, some to R1b)?STR numbers can be very weird, especially if you stare at them to long. SNP based phylogenetics is a lot less wierd.
Rodriguez-Flores et al. (2016) Indigenous Arabs are descendants of the earliest split from ancient Eurasian populations is a study sited on the YFull haplotree. It may be of interest to you despite the lack of R1b.
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2016/01/11/gr.191478.115

raspberry
08-15-2016, 10:12 PM
STR numbers can be very weird, especially if you stare at them to long. SNP based phylogenetics is a lot less wierd.
Rodriguez-Flores et al. (2016) Indigenous Arabs are descendants of the earliest split from ancient Eurasian populations is a study sited on the YFull haplotree. It may be of interest to you despite the lack of R1b.
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2016/01/11/gr.191478.115
Very interesting article.. And I changed my decision and bought R1b Snp Pack because it is much cheaper compared to the size of tested snps

raspberry
08-18-2016, 07:35 PM
Ftdna presumes all 118 SNPs wich are included in the SNP-Pack as negative. All major branches of R1b are presumed negative (V88,L389 and even the only in Anatolia occuring M335 subclade). Does it mean I am most likely from a new R1b branch? My definite results are expected between 09/28/2016 - 10/12/2016.

raspberry
08-18-2016, 07:39 PM
Ftdna presumes all 118 SNPs wich are included in the SNP-Pack as negative. All major branches of R1b are presumed negative (V88,L389 and even the only in Anatolia occuring M335 subclade). Does it mean I am most likely from a new R1b branch? My definite results are expected between 09/28/2016 - 10/12/2016.
I just viewed my "Pending results" and saw this:
11048
It seems like my y-dna Backbone Test isnt even finished (?). I now bought a SNP-Pack for R1b because I thought that I belong to R1b with 100% confidence..

Megalophias
08-18-2016, 07:44 PM
Does anyone know if the SNP pack covers PH155 or equivalent?

raspberry
08-18-2016, 09:22 PM
Does anyone know if the SNP pack covers PH155 or equivalent?
No, the SNP pack (FTdna does not have that snp on their haplotree) does not include PH155.. Where does that branch of R1b occure mostly?

Megalophias
08-18-2016, 09:31 PM
No, the SNP pack (FTdna does have that snp on their haplotree) does not include PH155.. Where does that branch of R1b occure mostly?
It has been found in Bhutan and Tajikistan for sure, probably also India and Xinjiang. But not much is known about it.

raspberry
08-18-2016, 09:33 PM
It has been found in Bhutan and Tajikistan for sure, probably also India and Xinjiang. But not much is known about it.
As I said, I am from South-East Anatolia, I dont think that I belong to that branch..

Megalophias
08-18-2016, 09:45 PM
As I said, I am from South-East Anatolia, I dont think that I belong to that branch..
Those are just places where it happens to have been found. It has almost never been tested for, so we don't really know where else it might be or where it comes from.

ADW_1981
08-18-2016, 09:52 PM
Ftdna presumes all 118 SNPs wich are included in the SNP-Pack as negative. All major branches of R1b are presumed negative (V88,L389 and even the only in Anatolia occuring M335 subclade). Does it mean I am most likely from a new R1b branch? My definite results are expected between 09/28/2016 - 10/12/2016.
I just viewed my "Pending results" and saw this:
11048
It seems like my Backbone Test isnt even finished (?). I now bought a SNP-Pack for R1b because I thought that I belong to R1b with 100% confidence.. Maybe this is the reason why all 118 subclades of R1b are presumed negative. But the haplotree shows M343 as green and that means it is "tested positive". I contacted Ftdna about this issue..

I can't see your screen capture. Navigate to "Haplotree & SNPs" and at the bottom it should say "Tests taken", and have a bunch of positives and negatives.

raspberry
08-18-2016, 10:01 PM
I can't see your screen capture. Navigate to "Haplotree & SNPs" and at the bottom it should say "Tests taken", and have a bunch of positives and negatives.
The screen capture (post #51) shows that my Y-DNA Backbone test isnt even finished.

ADW_1981
09-15-2016, 02:07 PM
As some experts predicted, it looks like you are L389+. Well done!

raspberry
09-15-2016, 05:42 PM
As some experts predicted, it looks like you are L389+. Well done!

Yes, i also saw it.
L389 is typicall for the European R1b. Could someone help me please interpreting this result? Does this mean my paternal ancestors are most likely originating from Europe? If yes, when did my family migrate to South-East Anatolia? For how long do my paternal ancestors already speak the Arabic language?

Joe B
09-15-2016, 06:49 PM
Haplogroup R1b-L389 is not a typical European R1b haplogroup.
Please join the R1b Basal Subclades project.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1bBasalSubclades?iframe=yresults

raspberry
09-15-2016, 07:40 PM
Haplogroup R1b-L389 is not a typical European R1b haplogroup.
Please join the R1b Basal Subclades project.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1bBasalSubclades?iframe=yresults
I joined already (Kit number: 501793).

smal
09-15-2016, 09:01 PM
Yes, you belong to R1b-L389. However, you do not belong to its main subclade R1b-L389 > P297. Most probably your haplogroup is R1b-L389 > V1636 (xCTS5330).
You can find it on my tree (http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b-M343xM269%20Y-DNA%20tree_04_07_29_2016.pdf).
Unfortunately, FTDNA do not provide an individual test for R-V1636. To test it you need to order BigY.
The distribution of R-V1636 was badly studied. It is clear that R-V1636 can be found in the Mediterranean region with low frequency.
R-V1636 is probably presented in Anatolia for very long time from very ancient times. Recently, it was found in aDNA from the Kura-Araxes culture [I1635, Kalavan (Armenia), Armenia_EBA (Kura-Araxes), 2619-2465 calBCE] by Lazaridis et al. 2016 (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/06/16/059311).

raspberry
09-16-2016, 05:00 AM
Haplogroup R1b-L389 is not a typical European R1b haplogroup.
Please join the R1b Basal Subclades project.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1bBasalSubclades?iframe=yresults


Yes, you belong to R1b-L389. However, you do not belong to its main subclade R1b-L389 > P297. Most probably your haplogroup is R1b-L389 > V1636 (xCTS5330).
You can find it on my tree (http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b-M343xM269%20Y-DNA%20tree_04_07_29_2016.pdf).
Unfortunately, FTDNA do not provide an individual test for R-V1636. To test it you need to order BigY.
The distribution of R-V1636 was badly studied. It is clear that R-V1636 can be found in the Mediterranean region with low frequency.
R-V1636 is probably presented in Anatolia for very long time from very ancient times. Recently, it was found in aDNA from the Kura-Araxes culture [I1635, Kalavan (Armenia), Armenia_EBA (Kura-Araxes), 2619-2465 calBCE] by Lazaridis et al. 2016 (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/06/16/059311).
I will maybe make BigY. Do you know what my paternal ancestors most likely were (ethnicity; language) before they got arabized?

Gravetto-Danubian
09-16-2016, 05:45 AM
I will maybe make BigY. Do you know what my paternal ancestors most likely were (ethnicity; language) before they got arabized?

One cannot tell from a haplogroup alone; South Caucasus has always been characterised by ethnic plularity and flux

Arame
09-16-2016, 07:57 AM
I will maybe make BigY. Do you know what my paternal ancestors most likely were.

At the current stage of our knowledge we can say that they were most probably Kura-Araxians. They were making good quality robust pottery.

http://www2.widener.edu/~msrothma/shengavit%20carinated%20pot.jpg

http://www2.widener.edu/~msrothma/shengavitweb2.html

With new data things can change.

Ahaddad
09-16-2016, 09:51 AM
Maybe your are like me, first classify a r1b and after r1a*, very rare branch majority from Middle East, Iraq, turkey, Qatar, UAE and Yemen. See my last posts you will see about.

raspberry
09-16-2016, 11:29 AM
Maybe your are like me, first classify a r1b and after r1a*, very rare branch majority from Middle East, Iraq, turkey, Qatar, UAE and Yemen. See my last posts you will see about.

I ordered a Snp-Pack and got tested positive for R1b-L389, so I think it is sure that I belong to R1b. But indeed it is weird that familytreedna is still running a y-DNA Backbone test to determine my haplogroup..
-
How typical is R-V1636 among Arabs? Are there any statistics at the moment?

Mher
09-17-2016, 05:21 AM
I ordered a Snp-Pack and got tested positive for R1b-L389, so I think it is sure that I belong to R1b. But indeed it is weird that familytreedna is still running a y-DNA Backbone test to determine my haplogroup..
-
How typical is R-V1636 among Arabs? Are there any statistics at the moment?

you must make Big and send your Big file to this tree https://yfull.com/tree/R-L389/

raspberry
09-17-2016, 08:40 AM
you must make Big and send your Big file to this tree https://yfull.com/tree/R-L389/

BigY is pretty expensive.. Are there any sales for BigY? The point of BigY would be that I belong for sure to R-V1636, but paying $575 is too much. There is a German site (yseq.net) in wich you can wish every possible SNP and the test would cost only 14 euros (~17$). By the way is there a site were I can look up the origin of people who belong to R-V1636? Through google I found nearly nothing about this branch.. Did this test proof that my paternal ancestors do not originate from central Arabia?

Mher
09-17-2016, 11:59 AM
BigY is pretty expensive.. Are there any sales for BigY? The point of BigY would be that I belong for sure to R-V1636, but paying $575 is too much. There is a German site (yseq.net) in wich you can wish every possible SNP and the test would cost only 14 euros (~17$). By the way is there a site were I can look up the origin of people who belong to R-V1636? Through google I found nearly nothing about this branch.. Did this test proof that my paternal ancestors do not originate from central Arabia?
181545 Vartparonian now live in Argentina ,but he is from Rostov

Mher
09-17-2016, 12:26 PM
149191 live in Boston but her ancetors from Kharberd

Mher
09-17-2016, 12:29 PM
149191 live in Boston but her ancetors from Kharberd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaz%C4%B1%C4%9F

raspberry
09-17-2016, 01:10 PM
The city´s name is Elazig (not Kharberd) but thank you. They are all from so far north.. Are there any Iraqis or Syrians who belong to this subclade? I thought most Armenians belong to L23 branch of R1b wich is tested negative for me. Why are they not my matches?

smal
09-17-2016, 03:47 PM
BigY is pretty expensive.. Are there any sales for BigY? The point of BigY would be that I belong for sure to R-V1636, but paying $575 is too much. There is a German site (yseq.net) in wich you can wish every possible SNP and the test would cost only 14 euros (~17$). By the way is there a site were I can look up the origin of people who belong to R-V1636? Through google I found nearly nothing about this branch.. Did this test proof that my paternal ancestors do not originate from central Arabia?
Yes, you can order V1636 in Yseq but I am afraid this test does not answer your questions. V1636 is very old SNP. The V1636 node has probably about 100 or more SNPs. Its age is probably 17000-6000 ybp. In order to answer your questions we need to discover hundreds of your SNPs and compare them with respective ones from European, Armenian, Syrian, and so on V1636+ samples. In such way we will able to calculate TMRCA of your line and European, Armenian, Arabian samples. These data will give you clues to answer your questions. So, I recommend to order BigY test. The best time for the testing is the Christmas FTDNA sales (usually -100$).

A distribution of R-V1636 is unknown. We've added V1636 on the ISOGG tree only in this year. You can find in scientific literature only a distribution of R-M343 (xV88 xP297) branches. However, R-V1636 is only a part of this complex.

Mher
09-17-2016, 03:52 PM
The city´s name is Elazig (not Kharberd) but thank you. They are all from so far north.. Are there any Iraqis or Syrians who belong to this subclade? I thought most Armenians belong to L23 branch of R1b wich is tested negative for me. Why are they not my matches?

The ancient town and citadel of Harput (pronounced Kharberd, in Eastern Armenian, and Kharpert Խարբերթ in Western Armenian) and meaning "rock fortress" in Armenian, was located about five kilometres (3.1 miles) from modern Elazığ. In the early Middle Ages, it was also known by its Byzantine name, Charpete (Χάρπετε)

Mher
09-17-2016, 03:54 PM
The city´s name is Elazig (not Kharberd) but thank you. They are all from so far north.. Are there any Iraqis or Syrians who belong to this subclade? I thought most Armenians belong to L23 branch of R1b wich is tested negative for me. Why are they not my matches?
but armenians very far from you-about 3000-4000 year

raspberry
09-17-2016, 04:19 PM
Yes, you can order V1636 in Yseq but I am afraid this test does not answer your questions. V1636 is very old SNP. The V1636 node has probably about 100 or more SNPs. Its age is probably 17000-6000 ybp. In order to answer your questions we need to discover hundreds of your SNPs and compare them with respective ones from European, Armenian, Syrian, and so on V1636+ samples. In such way we will able to calculate TMRCA of your line and European, Armenian, Arabian samples. These data will give you clues to answer your questions. So, I recommend to order BigY test. The best time for the testing is the Christmas FTDNA sales (usually -100$).

Thank you for your explanations in detail. Maybe I should just wait a while until science makes progress into this direction. At the current point I do not see any sence and difference in doing BigY.

raspberry
09-22-2016, 06:21 PM
How do you make the conclusion that I (most likely) belong to V1636? And do you know its position (hg19) on the ChrY of V1636?
-
The tested SNPs (if it helps):
A1773-, A2150-, A274-, A4670-, A517-, BY2823-, BY2868-, BY575-, BY653-, CTS10429-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS3386-, CTS3937-, CTS4466-, CTS4528-, CTS5330-, CTS5689-, CTS6937-, CTS7763-, DF103-, DF110-, DF17-, DF19-, DF21-, DF27 *, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, DF81-, DF83-, DF88-, DF95-, DF99-, F2017-, F2691-, F2863-, FGC10516-, FGC11134-, FGC13620-, FGC20761-, FGC22501-, FGC3861-, FGC396-, FGC5301-, FGC5336-, FGC5344-, FGC5345-, FGC5351-, FGC5354-, FGC5356-, FGC5367-, FGC5373 *, FGC5494-, FGC5798 *, L1065-, L1335-, L2-, L21-, L23-, L238-, L278+, L371-, L389+, L408-, L47-, L48-, L51-, L513-, L584-, L617-, L881-, M1994-, M222-, M269-, M335-, M343+, M478-, M73-, MC14-, P297-, P310-, P311-, P312-, PF3252-, PF6610-, PF6714-, PF7562-, PF7589 *, PF7600-, S1026-, S1051-, S11493-, S11601-, S12025-, S1567-, S16264-, S1688-, S18632-, S18827-, S6317-, S7721-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-, V88-, Y5058-, Z156-, Z16500-, Z17-, Z17300-, Z18-, Z1862-, Z195-, Z198-, Z209-, Z2103-, Z2109-, Z225-, Z251-, Z253-, Z2542-, Z255-, Z2573-, Z295-, Z3000-, Z301-, Z302-, Z326-, Z36-, Z367-, Z381-, Z49-, Z8-, Z8052-, Z9-

raspberry
10-08-2016, 11:00 AM
Note: I bought the V1636 Snp on Yseq.

raspberry
12-06-2016, 08:29 PM
12928

My result is finished but I dont understand it. Can someone help me with this?

Megalophias
12-06-2016, 09:15 PM
Hopefully smal will be by, but for now, looks like you are V1636+. That puts you in the main (or only) clade of L389*, the one found in the ancient R1b man from the Kura-Araxes culture, today found rarely in West Asia and Southern Europe (and Puerto Rico).

You are an Arab living in Turkey?

raspberry
12-06-2016, 09:27 PM
No, I am not living in Turkey. And No I am from the Arab minority of Turkey, not from an Arab country.

asm
12-24-2017, 05:08 AM
Hi

My Y-DNA haplogroup is R-M269 and as i said before in this forum my paternal lineage came from Levant/Sham and they belong Sunni Shafii madhab.Until now,we've known our paternal ancestors as Arabs.However,i read somewhere real Arabs can't belong R1b.
I didn't match any Arab or any other Levantine person on the list.Does that mean our assumption about being Arab is false?

asm
12-24-2017, 05:09 AM
.......