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lifeisdandy
08-11-2016, 03:30 PM
Why do J1's always desperately try to deny possible arabian ancestry? It's like the bane of life to potentially be descended from arabians and as far as I can tell..a lot of people try to distance themselves as much as possible from it even if it's the most likely scenario..

Moderator
08-11-2016, 03:35 PM
MOD


Why do J1's always desperately try to deny possible arabian ancestry? It's like the bane of life to potentially be descended from arabians and as far as I can tell..a lot of people try to distance themselves as much as possible from it even if it's the most likely scenario..

Please try and refrain from unnecessary generalizations. Thank you for your cooperation.

lifeisdandy
08-11-2016, 05:23 PM
MOD



Please try and refrain from unnecessary generalizations. Thank you for your cooperation.

I don't mean to be offensive or anything but it's just a common occurrence I come across and I wanted to hear from others who feel this way as to why they do this... it's not meant to be an attack.

J1 DYS388=13
08-11-2016, 05:48 PM
Wasn't this addressed on another thread which narrowed down the branch of J1 on which Arabs are found?

lifeisdandy
08-11-2016, 05:54 PM
Wasn't this addressed on another thread which narrowed down the branch of J1 on which Arabs are found?

not sure what you are referring to..?

vettor
08-11-2016, 05:59 PM
IMO, the true Arabs are Marsh Arabs @81.1% of J1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Arabs
and
The Arabian Peninsula was only truly populated centuries after centuries after the the lands north of the Zargos mountains.
We see many haplogroups in the arabian peninsula whose age does not exceed 2000 years ( Yfull )

I have always stated the the corridor from the east heading to Anatolia and beyond went through modern north Iran ( south of the Caspian sea )

Amerijoe
08-11-2016, 05:59 PM
I don't mean to be offensive or anything but it's just a common occurrence I come across and I wanted to hear from others who feel this way as to why they do this... it's not meant to be an attack.

I agree, no offense was noticed in your post, it's just some people view it from a different side of the fence. Back to Arabian, I'm not a J1, but a 100% Arabian Horse has 98% more Arabian than me. Look at all the great works in Arabic passed down through the ages, many of these stories were scripted into movies, in essence I love my 2%.:love:

J1 DYS388=13
08-11-2016, 06:06 PM
P58 is the branch where Arabs are typically found.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6228-italian-j1-questions-about-my-haplogroup/page6

lifeisdandy
08-11-2016, 06:06 PM
I agree, no offense was noticed in your post, it's just some people view it from a different side of the fence. Back to Arabian, I'm not a J1, but a 100% Arabian Horse has 98% more Arabian than me. Look at all the great works in Arabic passed down through the ages, many of these stories were scripted into movies, in essence I love my 2%.:love:

I just find that it seems to come off from a side of racism and I don't think that objective people should be engaging in such thoughts.. one has to face the facts.

RCO
08-11-2016, 06:10 PM
No haplogroup is only associated with one nationality, ethnicity, language or religion. If you go to YFull J1 tree https://www.yfull.com/tree/J1/ you will find completely different J1 groups in different regions, with different SNPs and different histories. Observe that the most basal J1 clades in the J1 tree are not Arabs or Semitics, represented mostly in some recent Southern Middle Eastern subset of derived branches.

J1 DYS388=13
08-11-2016, 06:11 PM
"I just find that it seems to come off from a side of racism and I don't think that objective people should be engaging in such thoughts.. one has to face the facts."

Then challenge a post when you see one.

I can't tell you any more except that people on this tree who are not on the P58 branch go down a blind alley when they look for Arab ancestry.
http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

vettor
08-11-2016, 06:19 PM
"I just find that it seems to come off from a side of racism and I don't think that objective people should be engaging in such thoughts.. one has to face the facts."

Then challenge a post when you see one.

I can't tell you any more except that people on this tree who are not on the P58 branch go down a blind alley when they look for Arab ancestry.
http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

Many Scholars state that being an Arab is only due to linguistics.....ie, the Arabic language and not due to a populace , similar to the terms Slavic or Celtic

vettor
08-11-2016, 06:30 PM
No haplogroup is only associated with one nationality, ethnicity, language or religion. If you go to YFull J1 tree https://www.yfull.com/tree/J1/ you will find completely different J1 groups in different regions, with different SNPs and different histories. Observe that the most basal J1 clades in the J1 tree are not Arabs or Semitics, represented mostly in some recent Southern Middle Eastern subset of derived branches.

Yfull has the TMRCA of the populace of the Arabian Peninsula as .............the oldest being 1100BC
Take the TMRCA starting year of 1950AD

South-Asia, Europe, caucasus are far more older .............so I agree

Looks like J1 entered the peninsula via QAT people

J Man
08-11-2016, 06:58 PM
Maybe because many of the J1 people in the world today such as many Jews and Dagestanis actually do not descend from Arabs.

raspberry
08-11-2016, 08:51 PM
How glad I would be if I were from J1.. I am R1b and this doesnt fit with my Arab identity.. But this is genetics.. You cant change it.

Agamemnon
08-11-2016, 09:18 PM
^^And I very much would've loved being E-M34 despite my Kohen/priestly background which predisposed me to be J1 (something I didn't really take seriously before receiving my results, reality knocked some sense into me so to speak)... Like you said, this is genetics, this cannot be changed as this is part and parcel of what you are, you must learn to cope with this, in time you will grow accustomed if not fascinated and intrigued by your paternal lineage.

Mod: Some J1 folks out there reject Arabian ancestry simply because they have no such ancestry, they are often proven right when they find where their lineage fits under J1 (which is every bit as old and diverse as R1b), those who are proven wrong (not exactly rare either) by their results deny it out of sheer shock or simply because they are unreasonable in which case I'd rather not dwell on this (arguing with reasonable people is hard enough). Either way, I do not like where this thread is headed, this is why I might be closing it if this discussion devolves into something completely ludicrous, so by all means, keep things civil. Thank you.

Abd.H
08-12-2016, 12:53 AM
How glad I would be if I were from J1.. I am R1b and this doesnt fit with my Arab identity.. But this is genetics.. You cant change it.

In the Arabian communities most of haplogroups are represented .
you have R1b and probably your subclade exists among Arabs more than my subclade ,even I am J1 ,because my subclade is mostly Caucasusian , And till now I am the only Arab whose result is J-ZS3089

Gravetto-Danubian
08-12-2016, 01:25 AM
Surely J1 far pre-dates the formation of distinct Arab tribes. The Mesolithic Karelian sample which was J1 had probably little to do with Arabs. In fact, given the demography of the Peninsula, J1 is most likely a (relatively) recent founder effect there. (?)

It seems "Arabs" were the desert tribes first referred to in Assyrian texts, whose name spread later over other Semitic & Semticized peoples of the Middle East (eg with Islamic conquests).

Here is a good overview "The origin of Arabs: Middle Eastern ethnicity and myth-making"
Peter Webb

Agamemnon
08-12-2016, 02:25 AM
I think the complexity of J1's history in the Arabian peninsula is often downplayed, while I agree much of the J1 there is due to the successive expansions of Semitic speakers and, most notably, Arabic speakers, J1 is also deep-rooted in the area.

parasar
08-12-2016, 03:17 AM
Why do J1's always desperately try to deny possible arabian ancestry? It's like the bane of life to potentially be descended from arabians and as far as I can tell..a lot of people try to distance themselves as much as possible from it even if it's the most likely scenario..

J1 is just too old to be called Arabian.

But I would see your point if folk discount recent Arab ancestry. In South Asia and Arabia you often see the other side. Many Syeds are disappointed if not J1, or not even J. Similarly for a long time Arab R1a1s used to refuse to disclose their names. It is after holder of the Kaaba's key, with pedigree dating to the Prophet's period, tested R1a-L657 that Arab R1a folk felt more comfortable disclosing their names.

J1 DYS388=13
08-12-2016, 07:00 AM
In the Arabian communities most of haplogroups are represented .
you have R1b and probably your subclade exists among Arabs more than my subclade ,even I am J1 ,because my subclade is mostly Caucasusian , And till now I am the only Arab whose result is J-ZS3089

I've seen at least 27 Syrian cases which are probably Z1842+.

I used to map them on my Z1842 map, but I deleted them because Arabs would take offense. https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?hl=en&authuser=0&mid=1OF9liqxFal_LODT1l1IF6ylBug0

Abd.H
08-12-2016, 10:57 AM
I've seen at least 27 Syrian cases which are probably Z1842+.

I used to map them on my Z1842 map, but I deleted them because Arabs would take offense. https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?hl=en&authuser=0&mid=1OF9liqxFal_LODT1l1IF6ylBug0
Maybe some Arabs would be positive for my subclade ,but I searched alot and I haven't seen other Arab has been confirmed to be positive for J-ZS3089

Myth
08-17-2016, 07:20 AM
I am J1 and don't have arab ancestry. I am a Jew.

lifeisdandy
08-17-2016, 05:20 PM
I am J1 and don't have arab ancestry. I am a Jew.

what's your terminal subclade?

Myth
08-17-2016, 08:08 PM
what's your terminal subclade?

https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13925673_10154432077024803_716826089114167222_o.jp g

Agamemnon
08-22-2016, 05:19 PM
what's your terminal subclade?

He's a Cohen, just like me.

Anabasis
08-22-2016, 08:16 PM
Not all J1s are Arab as all R1bs are not European or all L's are Indian or not all C's are Mongolian or not all N's are Finish etc.. etc...

We are talking about SNPs which formed more than 30k years old... 30k years ago there were no ethnicities but hunters who were following mammoths on the ice surface... And yes, Most of the Arab J1s are under J1-P58. Not all P58 are Arabs. Even P58 can't be dedicated to Arabs as far as P58 mutation formed 11k years ago is concerned. But P58 can only be related to geography which includes Anatolia, Mesopotamia Caucasus and the Arabian penisula...

Agamemnon
08-22-2016, 11:40 PM
Not all J1s are Arab as all R1bs are not European or all L's are Indian or not all C's are Mongolian or not all N's are Finish etc.. etc...

We are talking about SNPs which formed more than 30k years old... 30k years ago there were no ethnicities but hunters who were following mammoths on the ice surface... And yes, Most of the Arab J1s are under J1-P58. Not all P58 are Arabs. Even P58 can't be dedicated to Arabs as far as P58 mutation formed 11k years ago is concerned. But P58 can only be related to geography which includes Anatolia, Mesopotamia Caucasus and the Arabian penisula...

Mod: Just corrected the many typos in your post, I appreciate your input and agree with what you just said but please, do make an effort to write English properly.

Anabasis
08-23-2016, 12:09 PM
Mod: Just corrected the many typos in your post, I appreciate your input and agree with what you just said but please, do make an effort to write English properly.

or drink less beer.

dnamania
08-24-2016, 09:51 AM
J1 is too much old, P58 clade is older than 10k years. So we cant label J1 and/or P58 as "arab"

Most of J1s among arabs are FGC11 clade. İts age is 4,4k years.

11152

Gravetto-Danubian
08-24-2016, 10:02 AM
J1 is too much old, P58 clade is older than 10k years. So we cant label J1 and/or P58 as "arab"

Most of J1s among arabs are FGC11 clade. İts age is 4,4k years.

11152

Confirms a founder effect in peninsula Arabs (Post # 18)
I'd like to see what J1 Greeks have (up to 10% in some studies).

Shamash
08-24-2016, 07:10 PM
J1 is too much old, P58 clade is older than 10k years. So we cant label J1 and/or P58 as "arab"

Most of J1s among arabs are FGC11 clade. İts age is 4,4k years.

11152

The 4,4k figure is far too remote to make FGC11 an "Arab" ancestral marker . The fact that FGC11 nowadays is found predominantly amongst Arabs doesn't add to its origins. We have people of Austrian, German, Greek, Jewish, Sabaean and Himyari ancestry as well under FGC11.

Agamemnon
08-29-2016, 02:33 PM
J1 is too much old, P58 clade is older than 10k years. So we cant label J1 and/or P58 as "arab"

Most of J1s among arabs are FGC11 clade. İts age is 4,4k years.

11152

Is this (http://www.haplogruplar.com/j1-haplogrubu/) your website?