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razyn
06-11-2016, 10:49 PM
High level subclades of ZZ12, like most of the rest of DF27, are found all over Europe. There is no real reason to assume that examples in Flanders, Poland, Armenia etc. got there from Iberia, or (in the specific case of Flanders) by migrating north, in whatever millennium. If CTS3919 existed in Spain during the 16th century, it could have reached Flanders during relatively recent Spanish military movements, but we have no evidence of that. The other CTS3919+ sample tested so far (HG01518) has Spanish ancestry; we don't know his surname or the age of his pedigree.

thetick
06-12-2016, 12:55 AM
High level subclades of ZZ12, like most of the rest of DF27, are found all over Europe. There is no real reason to assume that examples in Flanders, Poland, Armenia etc. got there from Iberia, or (in the specific case of Flanders) by migrating north, in whatever millennium.

I always get frustrated with all the DF27 is Iberian origin guessing and especially modern groups likes Vikings when we know the groups are thousands of years old. It's just complete nonsense. It's just pure speculation/desire based on the fact there is a higher concentration in modern populations.

Isidro
06-12-2016, 02:13 AM
I always get frustrated with all the DF27 is Iberian origin guessing and especially modern groups likes Vikings when we know the groups are thousands of years old. It's just complete nonsense. It's just pure speculation/desire based on the fact there is a higher concentration in modern populations.

yes I kind of agree with you about the frustration part in relation to origins and modern distribution.

Somehow, a kind of new approach would be to trace back instead of finding almost an impossible origin for DF27 thousands of years back in an ancient DNA result that after all it would just point an existence of the group and not it's birth.

My intention is not confrontation and for sure not to "hurt anyone's feeling about their ancestry", so let's commence, not with the root but the full blown tree and track back:

DF27 in France and Iberia has a semi well known concentration of DF27... should we consider a Napoleonic period North to South dominance?...just going along let's assume not so. During Spanish apogee in Europe and the New world?...perhaps, but it would require a migration to Iberia from the North, not only not recorded in the annals of history but hard to fathom. Still going backwards... during the consolidation of Spain as the first modern state in European history?... I would assume quite the opposite, when control of frontiers were drawn. We arrive at medieval times, were northern Iberia was not only fighting the Northern African invasion but also when the Frankish opportunistic advantage was lurking south of the Pyrenees, albeit with some sort of success at least in the annals of European lineal and monolithic historical record, but not so realistic, knowing how tribal we, Europeans have been since the dawn of history.
Hoping you are still with me, let's just talk about the Goths, the Sueves, the Vandals, the Alans....at this point I would conjure Hollywood style imagination and to touch some kind of ground your quote about Vikings and your nonsense comment, and I agree.

In the melange of all this potpourri we could be dealing with an advantage of DF27, and for all it matters with other untouchable haplogroups pedigrees, like DF21, U152, U106 and other soup of letters, where their advantage in breeding prowess is not on their Y-DNA but a more earthly edge, not identified so far but accompanied by them and that it could lurk back at us not so far in the distant past, and I mean in the hundreds, not in the thousands of years back.

Gravetto-Danubian
06-12-2016, 02:31 AM
? the plague lol

sorry
Carry on..

Isidro
06-12-2016, 03:03 AM
Which one?...

By the way, and just in case we are talking about "ante quem" about luminaires talking about plagues, and honestly too old to dig my own posts... I mentioned that possibility years ago and prior
to plagues pnas publications. LOL

? the plague lol

sorry
Carry on..

Gravetto-Danubian
06-12-2016, 03:20 AM
Which one?...

By the way, and just in case we are talking about "ante quem" about luminaires talking about plagues, and honestly too old to dig my own posts... I mentioned that possibility years ago and prior
to plagues pnas publications. LOL

Was said in jest, but I seriously do wonder what effect the Black Death in the Middle Age on western Europe. Earlier mitochondrial studies certainly suggest that early medieval diversity was greater than it is today, from several regions (incl. Britain).

Isidro
06-12-2016, 03:32 AM
Was said in jest, but I seriously do wonder what effect the Black Death in the Middle Age on western Europe. Earlier mitochondrial studies certainly suggest that early medieval diversity was greater than it is today, from several regions (incl. Britain).

Yes, diversity in that context is puzzling. I can imagine diversity, not only in MtDNA but also in the Y-DNA when it comes to 5000bc might be playing reality tricks in our understanding, it's almost like archaeology is doing a payback time to ancient DNA absolutism.

Gravetto-Danubian
06-12-2016, 04:17 AM
Yes, diversity in that context is puzzling. I can imagine diversity, not only in MtDNA but also in the Y-DNA when it comes to 5000bc might be playing reality tricks in our understanding, it's almost like archaeology is doing a payback time to ancient DNA absolutism.

I'm not quite following
What are you suggesting ?

thetick
06-12-2016, 04:44 AM
I'm not quite following
What are you suggesting ?

I have no idea what Isidro is suggesting. I was with him on his first post after mine until I read at the end hundreds instead of thousands of years ? What? Complete nonsense. Where did that come from? The combination of STR and SNP proves the time frames are thousands not hundreds of years.

jtlefebvre
06-12-2016, 11:58 AM
High level subclades of ZZ12, like most of the rest of DF27, are found all over Europe. There is no real reason to assume that examples in Flanders, Poland, Armenia etc. got there from Iberia, or (in the specific case of Flanders) by migrating north, in whatever millennium. If CTS3919 existed in Spain during the 16th century, it could have reached Flanders during relatively recent Spanish military movements, but we have no evidence of that. The other CTS3919+ sample tested so far (HG01518) has Spanish ancestry; we don't know his surname or the age of his pedigree.

On the site Passion-Histoire.net, a contributor from the Somme valley suggests that the "hotspot" of DF27 in northwest France was a result of the Spanish invasion of Picardie during the 30 Years War.

Cet isolat ibérique nordique [DF27] est quand même difficile à expliquer par une répartition antérieure à l'antiquité. Je pense que vu le nombre d'envahisseurs successif qui se sont installé sur ce territoire, cet isolat aurait du se diluer ou diffuser sur les territoires adjacents sur un temps long. L'hypothèse de l'invasion espagnole de la picardie en 1636 me parait une hypothèse plus probable.

This northern Iberian isolate [DF27] is still difficult to explain by a prior distribution to antiquity. I think that given the number of successive invaders that have settled in the territory, the isolate should have been diluted or spread on adjacent territories over a long time. The hypothesis of the Spanish invasion of Picardy in 1636 seems to me a more likely scenario.

The "Army of Flanders" and the Spanish Army of the 17th century weren't only made up of DF27 Iberians and the invasion wasn't a "resettlement." Would relations producing offspring between Spanish soldiers and northern French women account for the level of DF27 in northern France today? Or is it a sort of early founder effect, or something else?

Webb
06-12-2016, 05:51 PM
On the site Passion-Histoire.net, a contributor from the Somme valley suggests that the "hotspot" of DF27 in northwest France was a result of the Spanish invasion of Picardie during the 30 Years War.

Cet isolat ibérique nordique [DF27] est quand même difficile à expliquer par une répartition antérieure à l'antiquité. Je pense que vu le nombre d'envahisseurs successif qui se sont installé sur ce territoire, cet isolat aurait du se diluer ou diffuser sur les territoires adjacents sur un temps long. L'hypothèse de l'invasion espagnole de la picardie en 1636 me parait une hypothèse plus probable.

This northern Iberian isolate [DF27] is still difficult to explain by a prior distribution to antiquity. I think that given the number of successive invaders that have settled in the territory, the isolate should have been diluted or spread on adjacent territories over a long time. The hypothesis of the Spanish invasion of Picardy in 1636 seems to me a more likely scenario.

The "Army of Flanders" and the Spanish Army of the 17th century weren't only made up of DF27 Iberians and the invasion wasn't a "resettlement." Would relations producing offspring between Spanish soldiers and northern French women account for the level of DF27 in northern France today? Or is it a sort of early founder effect, or something else?

It's difficult to explain if one accepts modern frequency = origin. It's not hard to explain if one accepts that in DF27's maximal spread was much different then current spread. In other words if DF27 was at decent levels from say Nort Western France all the way down to Spain, and over time was diluted in the middle.

Webb
06-12-2016, 05:59 PM
In fact I will change my stance. L21 is Celtic, due to modern frequency and associated language. U152 is Italic due to modern frequency and associated language. DF27 is Iberian/ Celtiberian/ Aquitanian/ and any other group that can be explained by DF27's modern distribution. There. Very simplistic and we can stop arguing. I solved that pretty easily!!!

EastAnglian
06-14-2016, 09:43 AM
Well I'm content with the origins of L617, its hot spot is in Basque areas of Iberia and it would have migrated there from central Europe I suppose. Do you all agree with a Central Europe origin for DF27?

razyn
06-14-2016, 01:39 PM
I can't imagine that we all agree on anything whatever. But Central Europe sounds fine to me, or quite possibly east of center. The France/Iberia area doesn't (for "origin"), it's just where it pooled, after getting there.

Webb
06-14-2016, 03:21 PM
I can't imagine that we all agree on anything whatever. But Central Europe sounds fine to me, or quite possibly east of center. The France/Iberia area doesn't (for "origin"), it's just where it pooled, after getting there.

My issue with the Celtic from the West scenario is, how do you reconcile U106 then?

A.D.
06-14-2016, 07:07 PM
If instead of saying 'Celtic from the West' to 'Druidism from the West' thus changing the emphasis from genetics to religion (practices), culture, social structure. I think that idea hold more weight. I think Celtic has an influence that goes back to the Megalith builders early farmers.

Heber
06-15-2016, 06:58 PM
Y-DNA Evidence for an Ashkenazi Lineage’s Iberian Origin

"Most genealogists researching their Ashkenazi families encounter brick walls in the paper trail within the past 200 years. A new research strategy using Y-DNA Next Generation Sequencing (NGS) allows us to go back further in time and, in some cases, discover a history different from the expected one.
1
Using results from FamilyTreeDNA’s “Big Y” test, we are uncovering just this kind of story, about a lineage of Ashkenazi Jews that appears to be de-scended from a man who lived in the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal) a thousand or more years ago. This article presents our preliminary findings...

This article presents the non-technical preliminary re-sults of a Y-DNA study that began with a cluster of men of Ashkenazi descent and one of Sephardic descent in an R1b subclade known as R-DF27, today most frequently found in the Iberian Peninsula. The vast majority of the Ashkenazi men had no knowledge or family stories of any connection with Spain or Portugal. Later, we discovered that there were others who shared a SNP with these Ashkenazi men, in-cluding a prominent Sephardic lineage, and possible de-scendants of converso refugees in the 16th-century New World."
7
https://www.academia.edu/25638614/Y-DNA_Evidence_for_an_Ashkenazi_Lineages_Iberian_Ori gin

razyn
06-15-2016, 10:29 PM
Y-DNA Evidence for an Ashkenazi Lineage’s Iberian Origin
Since it's not otherwise obvious unless one downloads the paper (and even that requires an Academia dot edu login), I think it's not excessive to mention that the article is in Avotaynu: The International Review of Jewish Genealogy, XXXII:1 (Spring 2016).

Isidro
06-16-2016, 12:24 AM
I have no idea what Isidro is suggesting. I was with him on his first post after mine until I read at the end hundreds instead of thousands of years ? What? Complete nonsense. Where did that come from? The combination of STR and SNP proves the time frames are thousands not hundreds of years.

Nonsense is what you make of it , I was just simply making in a point about the pointless issue of putting a time frame about FD27 origins. Proof of the thousands of years is something that makes sense, a thousand years ago Charlemagne was hot, two thousand years ago the Romans were hot, so what do we know for certain prior to that?...Are we talking about STR's?...My point is that origin is kind of useless unless we are looking for something that is nonsense pursuit which is origins... I mean what difference does it make when DF27 was born?.Are we looking for a superior seed of sorts here?. So going back to the hundreds or thousands years, that is substantial in my view. I suggest we stick to real evidence instead of mythology; and for the record you thetick does not strike me as as out of bounds with logic...some others here on the other hand do...of course at the end the only logic will be time and evidence, regardless were that leads us to.

Isidro
06-16-2016, 12:38 AM
I'm not quite following
What are you suggesting ?
In what context?...

Webb
06-16-2016, 02:25 AM
Well I'm content with the origins of L617, its hot spot is in Basque areas of Iberia and it would have migrated there from central Europe I suppose. Do you all agree with a Central Europe origin for DF27?

Yes, I would agree. Again my issue with Celtic from the west is how does one explain U106 distribution if it shares the same parent as P312. You can't ignore U106 when discussing P312.

jtlefebvre
06-16-2016, 11:21 AM
Y-DNA Evidence for an Ashkenazi Lineage’s Iberian Origin

Here is a page on the branch of R-DF27 to which the Ashkenazi/Iberian study refers. "It is unlikely this branch originates from the Middle-East."

http://jewishdna.net/R1b-FGC20761.html

Ric
06-16-2016, 02:17 PM
About " Y-DNA Evidence for an Ashkenazi Lineage's Iberian Origin ". There is nothing surprising here, since it is already suspected that many Ashkenazi are from the Iberian Jewish diaspora (The Marannos) . The surprise comes from equating FGC20747, a 4500 years old SNP, with Jewish descent.
Only if the author can prove that FGC20747 appeared in what was Israel 4500 years ago, then this SNP would be truly indicative of a Jewish origin. Otherwise it is just another subclade of df27 that most likely appeared in Central Europe and ended up in Spain. Obviously I don't have the answer to that. If I am not mistaken, you actually don't need to 'convert'. You just need to marry a Jewish woman and the children are Jewish according to the Jewish maternal rule. So about a thousand years ago, but still thousands of years after FGC20747 appeared, a df27-FGC20747 man, perhaps Christian, or perhaps of Arabic Muslim descend, could have married a Jewish woman and his sons would have been considered Jewish. It sort of makes the Y Haplogroup irrelevant, but anyways....I am also not too sure that the Portuguese Crown reciprocated this Jewish policy.
A Muslim 'convert' is also possible depending on when the conversion or marriage occurred. If it was after or during the Reconquista, it is not far fetched to imagine that some Muslims men, among them some Df27-FGC20747 individuals, wanted to stay and converted to that purpose. Perhaps it was more convenient for a Muslim to become an Israelite rather than a Christian, since many Jews were allied with the Muslims during the Muslim occupation of Spain and Portugal.
It is also possible that a R1b-df27 man moved to the near East ~5000 years ago, settled in Israel and became a true Israelite, before his descent moved to Spain thousands of years later, who knows. The author has still 3 or 4 thousands years to dig.
In any case it is good to be able to put some History and dates on otherwise meaningless and boring acronyms, as we are often reminded in the Df27 discussion group. I wish somebody could write a paper like that on the other df27 subclades.

runkefer
06-16-2016, 06:24 PM
Here is an updated chart to replace Figure 1 in the paper, since the one in the article is about 3 months old:
https://www.academia.edu/26229324/FGC20747_Outline_Chart_to_accompany_Y-DNA_Evidence_for_an_Ashkenazi_Lineages_Iberian_Ori gin_

runkefer
06-16-2016, 06:26 PM
"Here is a page on the branch of R-DF27 to which the Ashkenazi/Iberian study refers. "It is unlikely this branch originates from the Middle-East."
http://jewishdna.net/R1b-FGC20761.html"

That page is owned by one of the co-authors of the paper. We don't all three necessarily agree on that conclusion. I believe it's too early to tell until we have much more data

runkefer
06-16-2016, 06:27 PM
"About " Y-DNA Evidence for an Ashkenazi Lineage's Iberian Origin ". There is nothing surprising here, since it is already suspected that many Ashkenazi are from the Iberian Jewish diaspora (The Marannos) . The surprise comes from equating FGC20747, a 4500 years old SNP, with Jewish descent."

We are not equating FGC20747 with Jewish descent. Within the project, we are pretty certain of Jewish descent at least 1,000 years ago. We are working on some other Iberian branches that might push it back as long as 2,000 years ago.

Yes, it's the case that a Jewish mother giving birth to a son can start a new Jewish patrilineal line of descent. That could have happened 1,000 years ago or longer ago, in Spain. Or, an Iberian merchant could have traveled across the Mediterranean at an earlier time and fathered a son with a Jewish woman in the Middle East. There are many plausible scenarios. We do not go into that in this paper, because it's way too soon to draw any conclusions from DNA alone.

We still need much more data on the Iberian side to understand the timeline. We are still working on that...

Ric
06-16-2016, 07:15 PM
Here is an updated chart to replace Figure 1 in the paper, since the one in the article is about 3 months old:
https://www.academia.edu/26229324/FGC20747_Outline_Chart_to_accompany_Y-DNA_Evidence_for_an_Ashkenazi_Lineages_Iberian_Ori gin_

Nice chart.

May I ask when the people on the chart start to have similar STR pattern at 37, 67 or 111, I mean at what SNP/age level ?
I assume many of your participants are 12/12 or 11/12 matches to each other and I would also all assume that any shared SNP around ~ 1000 years would translate into a higher STR match, like at 37 level.

I have not been lucky to have any STR match above 12, myself. None of my BigY matchs (at GD=3) and none of the people in my own group Bba are STR match >12. Unfortunately my own subclade is ~ 4000 ybp so this is perhaps not surprising but I'd like to compare with other.

razyn
06-16-2016, 07:39 PM
I don't have many problems with this study, I've been in touch with two of its authors all along, and in Rachel's case we even got together to discuss it, because we don't live so far apart. I would quibble with this sentence:


Because the R-DF27 haplogroup is predominantly found in Spain and Portugal, the individuals outside the known Jewish cluster are predominantly of Spanish and Portuguese descent, as expected.

The fact that some subclades of DF27 are found in a high percentage of the male population in many parts of Iberia does not equate with what is said here. FGC20747 itself may ultimately prove to have an Iberian origin; but it is also below ZZ12, an ancient divide within DF27 that shows no such pattern or tendency toward Iberian preponderance. Also, 70% of Iberian males probably are a smaller group than 15% of males of European ancestry worldwide -- or whatever the real extent of DF27 may be. It's just not an accurate statement, as written. More of a rough approximation, like the caption for a Eupedia map.

And there's a funny definition of NGS testing, in the paper's first footnote. (That technology is not limited to the Y chromosome.)

Otherwise, I think it's a good job and that they are on the right track, helping to blaze the trail for many such studies yet to come.

runkefer
06-16-2016, 08:09 PM
Nice chart.

May I ask when the people on the chart start to have similar STR pattern at 37, 67 or 111, I mean at what SNP/age level ?
I assume many of your participants are 12/12 or 11/12 matches to each other and I would also all assume that any shared SNP around ~ 1000 years would translate into a higher STR match, like at 37 level.

I have not been lucky to have any STR match above 12, myself. None of my BigY matchs (at GD=3) and none of the people in my own group Bba are STR match >12. Unfortunately my own subclade is ~ 4000 ybp so this is perhaps not surprising but I'd like to compare with other.

The men under FGC20759 are a large cluster and many, but by no means all, match each other at 37 or 67 markers. They are all probably related to each other within the past 1,000 years, and some of the sub-clusters more recently, within 300-500 years. At 12 markers, many match tons of R-M269 men from England, etc., so not terribly helpful. The majority of the men of Iberian descent have no or few matches above 12-25 markers. One person has zero STR matches at any level, but has a Big Y match probably 2,000 years ago.

You can see the STRs in the project display here:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-FGC20767/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

jtlefebvre
06-16-2016, 09:47 PM
FGC20747 itself may ultimately prove to have an Iberian origin; but it is also below ZZ12, an ancient divide within DF27 that shows no such pattern or tendency toward Iberian preponderance.


My haplogroup R-CTS3919 also is below ZZ12, and my most distant known ancestor lived in West-Flanders in the 1680s. So ... I was surprised that my one match in this block lives in Spain and that our common ancestor was on the order of 4,000 ago. Perhaps we started out in NW France or Flanders and his ancestor moved to Spain, or vice versa. But ironically there still is an unknown but real Iberian connection that some day I would like to understand. More French and Spanish Big-Y please.

Ric
06-16-2016, 11:29 PM
@Jt, i did it. Not yet on the BigTree yet but I guess I would be there somewhere between Moreau and Larkin. By 1700, France was already a melting pot of nationalities, mostly from Northern Europe. I have the feeling that flat lands, like Northern France and nearby Netherlands, are especially prone to a ferocious melt potting. It's funny you mention 1680, it's also my glass wall. Just before that,it was the war of 30 years, that had a great impact on the populations around Northern France and Lorraine. People said that some parts of Lorraine lost 1/3 of their population, some places were completely razed and...quickly repopulated, but by whom ? Not by just the locals and one can speculate a lot of demographic change. So..df27 in the Netherlands/Northern France, is it because of the 'Spanish Netherlands' or because of a much older settlement ? Nobody knows.

jtlefebvre
06-16-2016, 11:58 PM
@Jt, i did it. Not yet on the BigTree yet but I guess I would be there somewhere between Moreau and Larkin. By 1700, France was already a melting pot of nationalities, mostly from Northern Europe. I have the feeling that flat lands, like Northern France and nearby Netherlands, are especially prone to a ferocious melt potting. It's funny you mention 1680, it's also my glass wall. Just before that,it was the war of 30 years, that had a great impact on the populations around Northern France and Lorraine. People said that some parts of Lorraine lost 1/3 of their population, some places were completely razed and...quickly repopulated, but by whom ? Not by just the locals and one can speculate a lot of demographic change. So..df27 in the Netherlands/Northern France, is it because of the 'Spanish Netherlands' or because of a much older settlement ? Nobody knows.

Ric, another French Big-Y! I don't know when my family moved to West-Flanders, although versions of the name were there from the 1200s. Unfortunately, with all of the wars in the region during the last five centuries, many records were destroyed. My family was connected to Kortrijk, and lived in or near the city from the 1680s to the 1850s. However, the earliest version of our surname is "Lefebure" which various internet sites claim is from Normandy or Picardy, an area with an elevated level of R-DF27! I've found the spelling also in Artois and Flanders, so perhaps Lefebure is more northwest France / Flanders than just Normandy / Picardy.

It may be that my family was in the region for a long time, and not just settlers following the 30 Years War. But like you say, nobody knows.

razyn
06-17-2016, 12:13 AM
So..df27 in the Netherlands/Northern France, is it because of the 'Spanish Netherlands' or because of a much older settlement ? Nobody knows.
I usually lean toward the "we don't know, yet" side. But on this specific question, I believe there is both broad and narrow evidence that the DF27 in the Low Countries is older than the 30 Years' War, or 1680, or the Protestant Reformation for that matter. On the narrow side, one of our DF27 project members (109279 Vliet) shares a terminal SNP way downstream of DF27 with a known relative, and I believe their known common ancestor is 13th century. For the broader picture, look at the Big Tree, and decode the little flags, to get an impression of geographies present within DF27 in general. It's a very broad-brush picture; but it's still more realistic than interpolating the origin and diffusion of all of DF27 from a couple of studies by Myres and Busby (looking at a few of its subclades that were known by 2011), and inventing proxies for the parts about which they had no data.

ehjelt
06-19-2016, 02:25 PM
I agree with Dick. We are a group of five families here in Scandinavia who share the same hg (DF27>Z209>S21184>S19290>BY3276). At least two of families have worked in mining and metal manufacturing. Just now we think our common origin is in Low Countries before Reformation. It’s possible that King Gustav Vasa meant that region in 1530s when he ordered his agents to “Valland” to recruit mining and smith experts to Sweden to better the quality of metals there.

tchekitchek
06-19-2016, 02:44 PM
Interesting...
Louis De Geer sent his Walloon metal workers in Sweden near Uppsala in around 1620... they were between 5000 and 10000, which is a lot.
I wish I would come across the Y-DNA test for a Swede with a Walloon name, like Hubinette, De Forest, Bonnevier etc...

I believe I'm DF27 as well, but not sure (undisclosed R1b).

jtlefebvre
06-19-2016, 03:10 PM
I realize that language and culture don't equate to genetics, but it is interesting that this map showing R1b subclasses in Western Europe (DF27 in yellow)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/84/02/4e/84024e0f623024c53ab41e2090266dfb.jpg

has significant DF27 numbers in northern and southern France, where two related Romance languages developed from Vulgar Latin before the middle ages. They are: Picard (langue d'oïl) in the north; and Occitan (langue d'oc) in the south. Both of the geographic areas where these languages were spoken were crossroads for trade with the Picard cultural area positioned between the Germanic north, the Isles across the channel, and mid-France; and the Occitan cultural area positioned between Italy, Spain, and mid-France. Perhaps a connection worth considering for the spread of DF27?

ehjelt
06-19-2016, 04:52 PM
Interesting...
Louis De Geer sent his Walloon metal workers in Sweden near Uppsala in around 1620... they were between 5000 and 10000, which is a lot.
I wish I would come across the Y-DNA test for a Swede with a Walloon name, like Hubinette, De Forest, Bonnevier etc...

Yes, that's right. There still lives many Walloon families in Sweden and Finland. They were recruited by de Geer after 1620 to mold cannoons to Gustaf II Adolf and the 30 Years' War. Many R1b-men among them, but not DF27s. The DF27-men came at least a hundred years earlier and mostly had no family names. One typical name in 1500s was for example in mining Master Willem (sounds Flemish).

Isidro
06-20-2016, 12:38 AM
http://www.anthrogenica.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by A.D. http://www.anthrogenica.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?p=141214#post141214)
I've been looking at the DF27 'hots pots' in Spain/Iberia. I started with the southern 'hot spot', around Albacete and came across A tribe referred to as the 'Germani' and next to the Oretani. There are also references to mixtures of Belgic and Germanic arriving in the 4thC B.C. They had some sort of relationship with the Oretani but still are credited as being separate. They were present in Hannibal's army. Hannibal had some very good heavy cavalry. The Albacete region is not far from areas where the stronger stockier breeds of horses come from. The most notable being the sorraia from West Portugal (now). Does anyone know if this DF27 is any closer to the more northern sub-clades? I'm toying with the idea that L21 is more linked to maritime expansion and DF27 to horses.


I had read the same thing. It seems their culture was not too dissimilar to the existing cultures in Iberia and they may have been invited by the Oretani. It is also interesting that they may be responsible for the Iron Age hill forts in that area.

Well, are we talking about helter-skelter results based on modern results?... I mean come on people...either we accept modern distribution or we don't.

The fact is that by 400 AD , 20 generations have passed since Celtic writing existed in Iberia, with a Semitic alphabet to boost. pretty much like other IE people, like the Greeks, or Mycenaeans come to mind, along with Etruscans and a long etc's...

The fact is that by 600 BC, Etruscans, Iberians and other Mediterranean people were the avant garde of the time when it comes to influence and dominance in the area, so if we want to put it in r1b-DF27 terms, or U152 and L21 let's be somehow serious and put them in the right historical perspective, otherwise either we are fooling ourselves or we are blindly try to fool others.

I think , either we accept the idea that R1b, dominated western Europe for an unexplained reason so far or it followed civilization and culture which by logic it only gives an option of South to North trend.

And by the way, without arousing egos or profit aimed intentions: "Navy Seals" elite domination of Iberia from the Steppes does not cut it for me. First of all, there is a 2,000 year gap in the urheimat proof with the tombstones trails and in top of it, there is the ignored Megalithic overlap; that, for some reason is totally ignored or poorly differentiated with an intellectual measuring stick.

I suggest to leave it to professionals for now, and results which like a mantra and at the end it is the only thing it will matter.

Ric
06-20-2016, 08:17 PM
? entered twice

Ric
06-20-2016, 08:18 PM
I usually lean toward the "we don't know, yet" side. But on this specific question, I believe there is both broad and narrow evidence that the DF27 in the Low Countries is older than the 30 Years' War, or 1680, or the Protestant Reformation for that matter. On the narrow side, one of our DF27 project members (109279 Vliet) shares a terminal SNP way downstream of DF27 with a known relative, and I believe their known common ancestor is 13th century. For the broader picture, look at the Big Tree, and decode the little flags, to get an impression of geographies present within DF27 in general. It's a very broad-brush picture; but it's still more realistic than interpolating the origin and diffusion of all of DF27 from a couple of studies by Myres and Busby (looking at a few of its subclades that were known by 2011), and inventing proxies for the parts about which they had no data.

I agree, this has to be true. The 30 Year's war is not that old in terms of STR and if most DF27 men in the Netherlands were actually originating from Spain at this period, every time a DF27 man with known Dutch ancestry would do a STR test, he would match a bunch of Spanish guys as well. And that would be known. So DF27 in the Netherlands has to be older than the 17th century.

razyn
06-20-2016, 09:31 PM
if most DF27 men in the Netherlands were actually originating from Spain at this period, every time a DF27 man with known Dutch ancestry would do a STR test, he would match a bunch of Spanish guys as well. And that would be known. So DF27 in the Netherlands has to be older than the 17th century.

We actually had evidence of this quite a bit earlier, and discussed it on this very thread (which has been running a long time, but intermittently). http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand&p=57413&viewfull=1#post57413

A.D.
06-20-2016, 11:51 PM
The Netherlands had a strong connection with Spain right up until the 'Orange rebellion'. I think some ships/crews from the 'Spanish armada' were from Holland. There was defiantly a strong maritime connection which could explain the apparent 'skip' over northern France in significant numbers. Then again France and DNA testing ? Then again it does seem rather recent.

palamede
06-25-2016, 02:56 PM
I have looked at Ytree and Yfull for the "Jewish clade". According to the origin, it seems me the departure of this clade is not FGC20747(TMRCA 4500BP) but V3476-Y16482 (TMRCA 1200BP) and according to the orgins in the sibling sub-clades, the orgin is Iberic very probably.

DF27 > FGC20747 (4500BP) > V3505 (4500BP) > FGTC20767 (4500 BP) > V2240 (2300 BP) > V3476 (1200BP)

The TMRCAs are from Yfull.

curiousII
06-27-2016, 12:35 AM
I have looked at Ytree and Yfull for the "Jewish clade"...the orgin pis Iberic very probably.Why would DF27 be called the "Jewish Clade," anyway? Percentage-wise, are there more European or American Jews with DF27 than, say, haplogroup E or J? And why would there be such a problem identifying it's point of origin? DNA research and science is comparative now to rocket science on the molecular level; it really doesn't seem that'd be too difficult to pinpoint its geographic home.

Does it? I've read that it's illegal to test for DNA in France and that poverty is a stumbling block for testing in Spain and Portugal. Is there more to it than that? Is there worry about people being exposed as Jews or something? That could be true in France, anyway.

razyn
06-27-2016, 03:08 AM
I don't think anybody has called FGC20747 "the Jewish clade." But a lot of the people who have done NextGen testing so far, and have found that SNP a few steps upward on their tree, are Jewish. Mostly Ashkenazim, who are surprised to find this fairly unambiguous evidence that their male-line ancestors were Iberian FGC20747 (and therefore pretty certainly Sephardic) before they got dispersed, to one place or another. Many of them to Eastern Europe, whence they subsequently (by a few hundred years) migrated to the Americas and have recently been getting DNA tests.

DF27 isn't "the Iberian clade," either. But a good percentage of its very numerous subclades have flourished there.

drneutrino
06-28-2016, 11:07 AM
Exactly!! Thanks for your excellent clarifications. As one of the 4 original testers mentioned in the research paper and an admin of R-FGC20747, I was not surprised by the Iberian connection. We still have a lot more research to do.

Ric
06-28-2016, 04:55 PM
Exactly!! Thanks for your excellent clarifications. As one of the 4 original testers mentioned in the research paper and an admin of R-FGC20747, I was not surprised by the Iberian connection. We still have a lot more research to do.
Does this marker, and this study in general, have anything to do with a poster posted in the DF27 group photo section of October 2015, by Anwar Ibrahim. There is a certificate made by a 'DNA Consultants' that certify his Jewishness based on 3 markers, but they don't say which specifically. And there is a book 'When Scotland was Jewish' that is perhaps based on these markers too. The picture is still there you can see by yourself.

curiousII
06-28-2016, 07:39 PM
Does this marker, and this study in general, have anything to do with a poster posted in the DF27 group photo section of October 2015, by Anwar Ibrahim.How about a link when you have the time, Ric. A quick search didn't find any thread with any such title nor a member with that name.
There is a certificate made by a 'DNA Consultants' that certify his Jewishness based on 3 markers, but they don't say which specifically.That'd be Dr. Yates and his ethnic tests: http://dnaconsultants.com/product/our-tests/jewish-dna-fingerprint-plus-test/
And there is a book 'When Scotland was Jewish' that is perhaps based on these markers too. The picture is still there you can see by yourself.And that'd be Dr. Yates' book: https://www.amazon.com/When-Scotland-Was-Jewish-Archeology/dp/0786477091

I've posted questions about DNA Consultants on other threads on this site. He used CODIS markers for tests, or at least he does on autosomal tests. From the one FTDNA autosomal result that I've gotten to view, it doesn't seem that FTDNA uses the same procedure. The results given by DNA Consultants list the CODIS loci (THO1, TPOX, D18S51) and I couldn't find anything like this on the FTDNA FF test. Their Fingerprint Plus test uses 18 Markers, and the FF finder test has 22 plus the X chromosome locations on the Chromosome Browser page. But I can't find any listing on the FTDNA test that uses terminology like THO1 or the like.

You can see the difference in autosomal test prices yourself. No idea how the quality of the tests differ, but you can see that the combined y-DNA and mtDNA tests are fairly much similar to those offered at FTDNA. How does the Family Finder test match up with, or differ from, DNA Consultants' CODIS tests? Are they comparable? And why wouldn't FTDNA offer individual ethnic tests (Melungeon, Jewish, Native American) like Yates does? My guess is that the individual ethnicities are disclosed in the regular tests, and the individual ethnic tests are mere vanity testing. Unless they can go deeper into individual ancestry, but that seems like they'd need more than a mere three markers.

My opinion is that y and mtDNA tests are much more valuable in giving a customer his roots as they show where he originated. That's maybe tens of thousands of years ago, whereas autosomal tests only give an approximation of, perhaps, where the customer's ancestors had been up to maybe four centuries back. And with CODIS that's a big maybe; it doesn't give anything even near conclusive.

Ric
06-28-2016, 09:01 PM
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1b-df27/photos
I can't find a direct link to the picture, sorry, you have to scroll down to October 2015.

Huntergatherer1066
06-28-2016, 10:05 PM
How about a link when you have the time, Ric. A quick search didn't find any thread with any such title nor a member with that name. That'd be Dr. Yates and his ethnic tests: http://dnaconsultants.com/product/our-tests/jewish-dna-fingerprint-plus-test/ And that'd be Dr. Yates' book: https://www.amazon.com/When-Scotland-Was-Jewish-Archeology/dp/0786477091

I've posted questions about DNA Consultants on other threads on this site. He used CODIS markers for tests, or at least he does on autosomal tests. From the one FTDNA autosomal result that I've gotten to view, it doesn't seem that FTDNA uses the same procedure. The results given by DNA Consultants list the CODIS loci (THO1, TPOX, D18S51) and I couldn't find anything like this on the FTDNA FF test. Their Fingerprint Plus test uses 18 Markers, and the FF finder test has 22 plus the X chromosome locations on the Chromosome Browser page. But I can't find any listing on the FTDNA test that uses terminology like THO1 or the like.

You can see the difference in autosomal test prices yourself. No idea how the quality of the tests differ, but you can see that the combined y-DNA and mtDNA tests are fairly much similar to those offered at FTDNA. How does the Family Finder test match up with, or differ from, DNA Consultants' CODIS tests? Are they comparable? And why wouldn't FTDNA offer individual ethnic tests (Melungeon, Jewish, Native American) like Yates does? My guess is that the individual ethnicities are disclosed in the regular tests, and the individual ethnic tests are mere vanity testing. Unless they can go deeper into individual ancestry, but that seems like they'd need more than a mere three markers.

My opinion is that y and mtDNA tests are much more valuable in giving a customer his roots as they show where he originated. That's maybe tens of thousands of years ago, whereas autosomal tests only give an approximation of, perhaps, where the customer's ancestors had been up to maybe four centuries back. And with CODIS that's a big maybe; it doesn't give anything even near conclusive.

Family Finder tests autosomal SNPs and the CODIS markers are autosomal STRs. People can order the CODIS markers from FTDNA if they want, you may need to call to do that though since they're rarely ordered. The CODIS markers are pretty rudimentary compared to large-scale autosomal SNP testing like Family Finder/23andMe etc where several hundred thousand markers are tested.

curiousII
06-28-2016, 10:34 PM
I can't find a direct link to the picture, sorry, you have to scroll down to October 2015.Sorry, my mistake. I thought you meant a post on this site.

You'll see that Yates states that having Jewish markers from his tests doesn't "...necessarily point to Jewish ancestry but can also signal ancestry in any of the places Jews historically lived..." That's separating Jews as a race from Jews as a racial religion; having Jewish ancestry doesn't arbitrarily mean that a person is of the Jewish faith. Ibrahim has two Jewish I markers, being from both parents, and one Jewish III hit, inherited from only one. Jewish I is described as hidden, meaning that many people have it but are unaware of any Jewish heritage. That'd be Sephardic, and that's how Yates describes it: being from Iberian countries. Central and Eastern European appearances he states are Ashkenazi. Jewish III, on the other hand, is from the Middle East and is "...preserved by Jews." No idea what that means, but I think he separates this from Cohenim which may be Jewish II, from Jews "...who have intermarried with other Jews throughout the centuries." This would be the deliberate preservation of the Jewish bloodline rather than by happenstance.

Any of these comparable to R-FGC20747? Just as FGC 20747 proves "unambiguously" that a person has Jewish heritage, Yates states that his Jewish markers "...show without any doubt whatever that [a customer has] one or more Jewish ethnicity markers." This phrasing kind of contradicts what Yates states elsewhere that it might simply mean that someone's ancestors lived in the same geographic regions as the Jews. But, in the case of Jewish III, that'd mean positively the Middle East. I guess the only way to find out is take FTDNA's DF27 SNP test. I'm Z2573, and FGC20747 shows to be downstream from me. Because it's downstream does that mean I'm automatically positive for it, or can it be a mutation on its own that doesn't need any positive hit above it? I guess an individual SNP test at YSEQ could answer the question, too, but they've really taken a long time with my last order. That's one of the advantages of using YSEQ: the haste that they process orders. If that's gone, a good reason for using FTDNA again.

And, before I forget, you'll see on Ibrahim's test that Yates says: "Congratulations on being one of the first people in history to commission a personal autosomal ancestry test!" The date on his test is July 24, 2012. DNA Consultants were offering their tests long before that date.


Family Finder tests autosomal SNPs and the CODIS markers are autosomal STRs...The CODIS markers are pretty rudimentary...Yeah, that was my guess, too. Like I said on the FTDNA forums, I'm happy with this place. You know, DNA Consultants used to offer sample test results on their website. Now with their new one I can't find any examples. If they did you'd see that the CODIS markers are entirely different from the results FTDNA gives.

drneutrino
06-28-2016, 11:53 PM
deleted

REWM
06-29-2016, 12:47 AM
I'm Z2573, and FGC20747 shows to be downstream from me. Because it's downstream does that mean I'm automatically positive for it, or can it be a mutation on its own that doesn't need any positive hit above it?


FGC20747 is not downstream of Z2573. So you would be negative for FGC20747.
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=644&star=false

drneutrino
06-29-2016, 01:26 AM
Does this marker, and this study in general, have anything to do with a poster posted in the DF27 group photo section of October 2015, by Anwar Ibrahim....

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

ArmandoR1b
06-29-2016, 04:09 PM
The new thread (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7623-Evidence-for-African-and-Middle-Eastern-ancestry-in-Bell-Beaker-and-implications) by Ryukendo, the posts by Richard Rocca in that thread and in the new Eurogenes Bell Beaker thread, and the new Eurogenes Bell Beaker thread (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/06/german-bell-beakers-in-context-of.html) show Bell_Beaker_Germany to be a mix of Iberian_Chalcothic and Yamnaya_Samara among other ancestries. So now there is additional evidence of Steppe and Iberian mixture in Bell Beaker. I'm really looking forward to seeing more ancient DNA results from all over Europe from 3,500-2,500 BC.

Ric
06-29-2016, 04:51 PM
The new thread (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7623-Evidence-for-African-and-Middle-Eastern-ancestry-in-Bell-Beaker-and-implications) by Ryukendo, the posts by Richard Rocca in that thread and in the new Eurogenes Bell Beaker thread, and the new Eurogenes Bell Beaker thread (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/06/german-bell-beakers-in-context-of.html) show Bell_Beaker_Germany to be a mix of Iberian_Chalcothic and Yamnaya_Samara among other ancestries. So now there is additional evidence of Steppe and Iberian mixture in Bell Beaker. I'm really looking forward to seeing more ancient DNA results from all over Europe from 3,500-2,500 BC.
It's already a battle of expert's experts there, too hard for me to understand in detail.
But I'd like to get the big picture.
They discover Chalcolithic Iberian 'genes' (or markers, but which, R1b-DF27 ?) mixed with Steppes Yamnaya genes (R1b or other, but not R1b-DF27 ?) among the Bell Beaker culture of 2500bc Germany.
If I understood that correctly, how do they know that the df27 genes came from Iberia ?

ArmandoR1b
06-29-2016, 05:19 PM
It's already a battle of expert's experts there, too hard for me to understand in detail.
But I'd like to get the big picture.
They discover Chalcolithic Iberian 'genes' (or markers, but which, R1b-DF27 ?) mixed with Steppes Yamnaya genes (R1b or other, but not R1b-DF27 ?) among the Bell Beaker culture of 2500bc Germany.
If I understood that correctly, how do they know that the df27 genes came from Iberia ?

The DF27 genes don't look to have originated in Iberia. The posts by Richard Rocca are the ones that I think put everything in perspective. Since Spain-Chalcolithic and Italy-Chalcolithic don't have any R1b but the German Bell Beaker remains do have R1b-P312 (recent ancestor of DF27) and the Yamnaya are also R1b then the conclusion is that R1b is from a Yamnaya related group.

In the Eurogenes thread he posted "So, while some R1b expansion "out of" Iberia may have occurred, those males seem to have expanded "into" Iberia a few hundred years before that. That Chalcolithic Portuguese mtDNA is overwhelmingly H is also a data point in that direction. This is the model that Jean Manco has proposed in her book and is the likeliest, albeit not only, explanation. "

Ric
06-29-2016, 08:58 PM
The DF27 genes don't look to have originated in Iberia. The posts by Richard Rocca are the ones that I think put everything in perspective. Since Spain-Chalcolithic and Italy-Chalcolithic don't have any R1b but the German Bell Beaker remains do have R1b-P312 (recent ancestor of DF27) and the Yamnaya are also R1b then the conclusion is that R1b is from a Yamnaya related group.
OK, so by simply comparing DNA from Iberian skeletons, therefore found in Iberia, and dated from the Chalcolithic (Wikipedia indicates Chalcolithic = Copper Age or pre-Bronze age) they found shared segments with the Bell Beaker fossil skeletons of the same period. Is it correct ?
But are they talking about autosomal DNA segments or Y markers (SNP or STR) ?
I don't see any mention of the DF27 marker in the discussion, so the 'Iberian component' must be about autosomal DNA.

ArmandoR1b
07-02-2016, 02:43 PM
OK, so by simply comparing DNA from Iberian skeletons, therefore found in Iberia, and dated from the Chalcolithic (Wikipedia indicates Chalcolithic = Copper Age or pre-Bronze age) they found shared segments with the Bell Beaker fossil skeletons of the same period. Is it correct ?
Yes, the Iberia_Chalcolithic DNA results are from skeletons from burials in Iberia in the Copper Age, which is prior to the Bronze Age, and were compared to the DNA results of skeletons from German Bell Beaker burials.


But are they talking about autosomal DNA segments or Y markers (SNP or STR) ?
I don't see any mention of the DF27 marker in the discussion, so the 'Iberian component' must be about autosomal DNA.
They are talking about autosomal DNA but Richard Rocca also mentioned the Y-DNA found in the Chalcothic specimens

The following is from his post (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7623-Evidence-for-African-and-Middle-Eastern-ancestry-in-Bell-Beaker-and-implications&p=167129&viewfull=1#post167129)

Spain-Chalcolithic:
Haplogroup I = 6 of 9 = 67%
Haplogroup G = 2 of 9 = 22%
Haplogroup H = 1 of 9 = 11%

Italy-Chalcolithic:
Haplogroup I = 3 of 4 = 75%
Haplogroup G = 25%

R1b was not found in the Chalcothic remains but it has been found in the Bell Beakers including P312 and U152. Since DF27 is a close relative of U152, which has a high frequency in northern Italy and as you know, relatively speaking, isn't that far from northern Iberia.

The autosomal DNA stats were making it seems as though the Bell Beakers were a mix of Steppe like people and Iberian like people and could have been a sign of a backflow of DF27 to the east of northern Iberia after having first entered Iberia from the Steppe. Posts on the Eurogenes, after a recommendation by Richard Rocca that they use Italian Chalcothic, showed a closer relation to Italian than to Iberian so those stats I referred to in my post #305 have less importance now. However, in the future, pending results of Bell Beaker skeletons, and of other periods and regions in Europe, in the next several years should bring more clarity to the DNA puzzle of where DF27 people, or at least their closest relatives, were around the time DF27 first appeared. Autosomal DNA will be one of the clues for that.

rms2
07-02-2016, 03:57 PM
Another thing to consider is that we have a Vucedol period skeleton circa 2800 BC from Hungary that has tested R1b-M343 and is supposed to be undergoing full genomic testing in Reich's lab at Harvard. We should know more about it soon. Archaeologist Marija Gimbutas claimed that Bell Beaker, at least the full-on kurgan-type Bell Beaker, was the product of the blending of Vucedol and Yamnaya in the Carpathian basin in the late 4th - early 3rd millennium BC.

curiousII
07-08-2016, 08:10 PM
Like I've posted elsewhere, my M343 Backbone gave me the haplogroup Z2573. Subsequent SNP tests at YSEQ confirm this, and also confirm there's nowhere for me to go downstream at the moment. So, my haplogroup at the present and for who knows how long in the future is Z2573, which FTDNA described as "proto-Celtic."

So, what am I? Am I Celtic or not Celtic at all? Am I "Ibero-Celtic" if DF27 is from Iberia? Is that different from Celtic? I've tried matching my 111 test results up with Irish, Scottish, and English examples and there's lots of similarities, but there's also lots of differences, too.

I've tried facial feature matches, and have really struck out there. I've posted the only photo of my paternal grandparents I have in a couple of spots and pointed out the shape of my grandfather's eyes (which I have, also), but haven't gotten any takers giving me any advice on what possible racial match they might be. The bottom lids are flat, the uppers a perfect hemisphere peaking in the middle and not to one side or the other as the Asian eyes do. I haven't found any facial photos anywhere on the Web that match (one girl's photo came close), and that's hard to believe.

My father's weren't like this, and if I didn't have the picture of my grandfather I'd probably never have made mention of this anywhere. None of the photos of my aunts, uncles, or cousins have this trait, just me.

Not fishing for visits to my personal profile page, but I've posted that picture there, too. Here it is: 10276along with my father's: 10277 I've noticed on The Apricity there's a forum for questions like this. Not having found one on Anthrogenica, I'll try a thread here. Are those Celtic facial features or, if not, what are they?

Jean M
07-08-2016, 08:18 PM
FTDNA described as "proto-Celtic."

They shouldn't be doing that. Proto-Celtic was a language, the parent of all the known Celtic languages. An SNP is not the same as a language. The reason why we see correlations between languages and Y-DNA haplogroups is that children generally learn their first language from their parents. But that doesn't always happen. So when you see haplogroups labelled "Germanic" or "Celtic", it just means that we can deduce a correlation, which is not the same as a one-to-one absolute link.

Jean M
07-08-2016, 08:29 PM
Like I've posted elsewhere, my M343 Backbone gave me the haplogroup Z2573.

According to Y-Full, Z2573 has been found in Spain. That does not necessarily mean that your ancestor in the direct male line arrived in America from Spain. You would get more of a clue from surname, I imagine, given the way people moved about in prehistory and early history. There is a lot of DF27 in Iberia. But it is also found elsewhere.

rms2
07-08-2016, 09:26 PM
Anyway, I congratulate you on your ancestor's moustache! Awesome!

curiousII
07-08-2016, 09:30 PM
They shouldn't be doing that. Proto-Celtic was a language...That's great. I mean thanks for the reply, your posts are always informative, but now I've lost that ethnic designation, too.
...Z2573 has been found in Spain. That does not necessarily mean that your ancestor in the direct male line arrived in America from Spain. You would get more of a clue from surname, I imagine...I've read that also, and there's a fairly involved thread about this in the DF27 Forum. Here the surname's Harris, so I suppose my DF27 ancestors crossed the Channel some thousand years or so before coming to the New World.

If I'm Iberian, my guess is my part of the mutation's from France rather than Spain. "Harris" has French spellings, also, and long ago I read that it originally was French, though I'm also certain that's been disproven by now. And I haven't seen or heard from my cousins of any of our ancestors having Spanish names. Actually, I've never heard of any of my paternal forebears having any surname other than Harris.

And thanks again for your response, Jean. I've read elsewhere here that you're an authoress and you're doing some kind of fundraising for ethnic testing. True? Quite laudable, and I'm sure you have quite a following that's as appreciative of your efforts as I am.

And since you're literate, I can ask you: Would Grandfather's eyes be called "laughing eyes?" You used to read that in literature, at times. A quick Google with that subject gives results of many people laughing, but "laughing eyes" would be descriptive of an eye shape that would appear amused or cheerful even when the rest of the face might be somber or stern. Think so?

curiousII
07-08-2016, 09:37 PM
Anyway, I congratulate you on your ancestor's moustache! Awesome!Yes, it's really noticeable. He had some hair, too, didn't he? Those days were a lot of grease and butch wax, but with Grandfather the "wet head" died long before the '60s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0hFpO19ecA

Jean M
07-08-2016, 09:57 PM
Here the surname's Harris, so I suppose my DF27 ancestors crossed the Channel some thousand years or so before coming to the New World.

Harris = son of Harry i.e. Henry. Henry = Henri in French, and the name was introduced to England by the Normans, but Norman names became popular in England thereafter, so that's not really a clue to a Norman ancestor. I would assume a British origin, failing any data to the contrary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harris_(name)

Jean M
07-08-2016, 10:02 PM
And thanks again for your response, Jean. I've read elsewhere here that you're an authoress and you're doing some kind of fundraising for ethnic testing. True?

Yes to the first, but no to the second. I'm just ploughing some of the (not vast) income from my book Ancestral Journeys back into the research process. I'm not cut out to be a fund-raiser!

Jean M
07-08-2016, 10:05 PM
And since you're literate, I can ask you: Would Grandfather's eyes be called "laughing eyes?"?

That's how they strike me. :)

razyn
07-08-2016, 10:47 PM
The knee-jerk association of DF27 (or any subclade of DF27 close to its "trunk") with either an ethnicity (e.g. Celtic) or a geography (e.g. Iberia) is speculative, and IMO usually more apparent than real. So this should perhaps be a DF27 thread under R1b, rather than a Celtic forum thread. http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?119-R1b-DF27

curiousII
07-08-2016, 11:07 PM
The knee-jerk association of DF27 (or any subclade of DF27 close to its "trunk") with either an ethnicity (e.g. Celtic) or a geography (e.g. Iberia) is speculative, and IMO usually more apparent than real. So this should perhaps be a DF27 thread under R1b, rather than a Celtic forum thread. http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?119-R1b-DF27Of course you're right, I agree. But you'll see that there really isn't any answer to any of those threads in the DF27 forum, just a lot of speculation. Which I believe is entirely odd, as most the other subclades' home towns have been identified, haven't they? Like U106, for example.

OK, I understand that DF27 is a new discovery and we should all wait a time until science catches up to it. But we who are some kind of DF27's, what are we? My Z2573 evolved into what? Celts or something else? Were Gauls before Celts?

Really, the only time I've seen hedging like this amongst scientists and their professional hang-arounds is when they might be trying to skirt a Jewish origins possibility. Or maybe DF27 began farther to the East than ones wish to announce? I'm certain I'm wrong, but the age I've read of my subclade being is surprising old and predates most of the empires and peoples of later eras, say around Christ's time.
I'm not cut out to be a fund-raiser!If you ever change your mind I'd love to work for you! I've done fund-raising work before and I can tackle the most difficult script they can think of and get donations; that's a great combination. I work cheap, too, hint.

A fund-raiser like one that'd enable lower income Iberians to take ethnic DNA tests. Not just autosomal, but y and mtDNA tests, too. DF27's an example, I guess, of the quandary everyone's in until they can get deeper into our origins. I've read that Spain, Portugal, and France are one great black hole as far as ethnic origins go. I sure hope I phrased that right.

razyn
07-08-2016, 11:21 PM
In the case of DF27 the cart of identification (of certain subclades) with specific ethnicities and geography came well before the horse of knowing there was such a thing as DF27. And the fact that DF27 is itself a brother of the (smaller, and less bushy, but better known) U152 still isn't very well known, nor yet found in academic print.

If it helps, I'm an academic. Print this.

Isidro
07-09-2016, 01:35 AM
A fund-raiser like one that'd enable lower income Iberians to take ethnic DNA tests. Not just autosomal, but y and mtDNA tests, too. DF27's an example, I guess, of the quandary everyone's in until they can get deeper into our origins. I've read that Spain, Portugal, and France are one great black hole as far as ethnic origins go. I sure hope I phrased that right.

Oh yeah you phrased that right, after all you
work cheap. As we say in the USA you work for the easy buck no matter what it takes right?.By the way even low income Iberians can spend in a couple nights out worth of tapas what it would cost your DNA test. So yeah good luck with that, especially if you are going to sell them that they come from some weird land they never heard of... LOL.

curiousII
07-09-2016, 06:15 AM
Oh yeah you phrased that right, after all you
work cheap. As we say in the USA you work for the easy buck no matter what it takes right?.By the way even low income Iberians can spend in a couple nights out worth of tapas what it would cost your DNA test. So yeah good luck with that, especially if you are going to sell them that they come from some weird land they never heard of... LOL.But I'm sure it'd interest them. Take you, for example. Aren't you curious about where FD27 originated? You might be in the same boat DF27's are in.

Gray Fox
07-09-2016, 08:10 AM
This thread doesn't really have a place in the Celtic section and is better suited to the "Where did DF27 originate" thread. Also, Classify me/Guess ethnicity threads are in violation of section 3.10 of the forum rules/terms of service. Just a friendly reminder on that last one.

I'll be transferring this discussion shortly..


{Carry on}

curiousII
07-09-2016, 09:50 AM
Also, Classify me/Guess ethnicity threads are in violation of section 3.11 of the forum rules/terms of service.I didn't know that, I wouldn't have made this post. Like I mentioned, I saw on another website a forum where speculation on old photos/facial features was encouraged. Obviously that concept is incompatible here.

Didn't do that intentionally, thanks for the courtesy.

edit: OK, so I don't do this again, please show me which rule in 3.11 a "what's my line" post violates.

3.11 Anthrogenica encourages its members to participate in discussions in a topic-focused manner. Personalization of discussions is completely prohibited at all times. This includes (and is not limited to) direct personal attacks, accusations, insinuations and false disclosures. Additionally, discussions that degenerate into inconsequential flaming or inanity will be deleted without prior notice.

My guess is I "personalized a discussion," but I'm probably inane.

Gray Fox
07-09-2016, 09:57 AM
I didn't know that, I wouldn't have made this post. Like I mentioned, I saw on another website a forum where speculation on old photos/facial features was encouraged. Obviously that concept is incompatible here.

Didn't do that intentionally, thanks for the courtesy.

No worries!

For further information regarding the issue, please see here. (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3080-Section-Stipulation-(Please-Read-Before-Posting))

Isidro
07-10-2016, 01:02 AM
But I'm sure it'd interest them. Take you, for example. Aren't you curious about where FD27 originated? You might be in the same boat DF27's are in.

Of course I am interested, after all I belong to DF27 a branch that is very international compared to U152 and DF21. But the apple does not fall far from the tree unless we are looking for a cat with three legs...

Isidro
07-10-2016, 01:10 AM
This thread doesn't really have a place in the Celtic section and is better suited to the "Where did DF27 originate" thread. Also, Classify me/Guess ethnicity threads are in violation of section 3.10 of the forum rules/terms of service. Just a friendly reminder on that last one.

I'll be transferring this discussion shortly..


{Carry on}
So I understand correctly before further posting, are you saying that anyone that that mentions DF27 origins should dissasociate it with anything related to Celtic?. I want to understand we are all in the same page here.
Thank you.

curiousII
07-10-2016, 04:05 AM
Of course I am interested, after all I belong to DF27...Sorry, I was trying to draw attention to your Y-DNA listing: "FD27+." I did a quick search, didn't find it, and figured you transposed a couple of letters. If I'm wrong, sorry again.
...are you saying that anyone that that mentions DF27 origins should dissasociate it with anything related to Celtic?Thanks, that kind of sums up what I was fishing for in my own inept way. Not Anglo-Saxon, not Germanic, maybe Norman, maybe not, but seemingly being sluffed off on the Spaniards who may not be appreciative of that at all. Can't call DF27 a red-headed step child as that'd infer Celtic ginger, but it seems to be an unwanted addition to the family at the moment.

Gray Fox
07-10-2016, 05:22 AM
So I understand correctly before further posting, are you saying that anyone that that mentions DF27 origins should dissasociate it with anything related to Celtic?. I want to understand we are all in the same page here.
Thank you.

You can associate it with whatever you wish. The thread in question was better suited to the DF27 subsection, as that was the main point of interest.

curiousII
07-10-2016, 01:51 PM
Maybe another way to phrase this is: What was the classification for a person who had DF27 markers before DF27 was discovered? We're DF27 now, but what were we before DF27? If I got it right, DF27 is R1b1a2a1a, and Z2573 is even more unwieldy but I think I saw it somewhere once. So, prior to R1b1a2a1a getting turned into DF27, where on the planet and what ethnicity were these people determined to be? Fair question?


You can associate it with whatever you wish.

But that doesn't make it correct. I can go around saying I associate myself with the Chinese or Sub-Saharan Africans, but I'd simply be lying. I really didn't think I was being deceptive when I posted in the Celtic forum.



The thread in question was better suited to the DF27 subsection, as that was the main point of interest.

The main point of interest is something I found out I can't ask here: What am I? All right, I've been schooled on that now, I won't ask that again. Or at least not phrased in that manner. I thought my question was appropriate for the site's International Area forums as I was wondering if a specific global region has been determined for DF27. I know it's been discussed here, but there's been no one conclusive decision yet and I thought that the Celtic forum might have clues. The forum's heading states: "...Celtic rooted regions of Europe." I guess Iberia isn't Celtic-rooted?

Now that's a new one to me but is something I've been guessing at due to some of the discussions I've found. Iberia's excluded from the Celtic peoples' classification? They were Gauls or something, but not Celts? Or is it just Spain and Portugal that aren't considered Celtic?

There are French and Portuguese forums there, but those are language-based and not something I'd wish to try even with Babelfish (which used to give terrible translations; I'm sure I'd be in even more trouble). Which leads into another question: English isn't my ethnic language anymore? So what do I learn now? Gaelic's obviously out.

razyn
07-10-2016, 06:00 PM
I really didn't think I was being deceptive when I posted in the Celtic forum.

I don't think anybody has suggested it was deceptive; just that it was in the wrong part of the forum. In case you or anyone else has forgotten how you began, and titled, your OP -- it's post #311 on this thread, now that it has been moved here from the Celtic forum (and not by me, I'm not a moderator here). You posted about a fairly newly discovered subclade of DF27 (Z2573), of considerable interest to your curious self because you have the SNP. But so far it's known in only a handful of people, with ancestry from several diverse regions of Europe, and on the face of it looks pretty tangential to Celtic studies as such.

There was one phrase in your original post,
Z2573, which FTDNA described as "proto-Celtic.", that must I suppose have a source somewhere; but I don't know where, and don't believe you ever got around to saying. The next comment by JeanM was that they shouldn't have said that. And I agree, but I don't know who actually did. Many people in this hobby assert their pet speculations as if they were factual, and some of them work for the companies with labs. Don't believe everything you read. Even if I wrote it.

curiousII
07-10-2016, 08:14 PM
There was one phrase in your original post that must I suppose have a source somewhere; but I don't know where, and don't believe you ever got around to saying. The next comment by JeanM was that they shouldn't have said that..

I got "proto-Celtic" from my results from my M343 Backbone at FTDNA. I just looked for it there, but can't find it now. i thought it was on my Haplotree, but now it says "Haplogroup R-P312 is the descendant of the major R-P25 (aka R-M343) lineage and is the most common in Central Europe, Spain, France, Portugal, and the British Isles." That's right below "Confirmed Haplogroup R-Z2573."

So OK, I probably didn't want to be Celtic anyway. Bell Beaker: is that closer? Couldn't find that just now, just that they were R1b. The main argument that I've read about DF27 not being Celtic is that it predates the Celts by such a long period. If so, then it'd be contemporary with Bell Beakers? And, if it's so hard to pinpoint its origins, would that be from migratory patterns, forced enslavement/servitude, or some other type of pilgrimages or journeys?

I guess the question is did DF27 even have its own culture, or was it just some kind of mutation that happened in a society and never got its home town named after it? No "DF27-Land, Home of the DF27's!"

razyn
07-10-2016, 09:21 PM
DF27 is a mutation, and mutations don't have cultures. Some mutations (especially young ones that have happened in more or less isolated places) may be found exclusively in a culture -- until some guy has sex outside it. How rare would that realistically be? If the mutation is 4900 years old, I very much doubt that that hasn't happened fairly often, by now.

curiousII
07-11-2016, 08:03 AM
I found this at: http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?p=427931#post427931 :

"...the Galician, the Bretons and The Basques, they are considered as Proto-Celtic or Pre-Celts, i.e. the primitive Celts of continental Europe)."

There's one proto-Celtic. Now, this is when I first saw it used: "DF27 is Celtic / Proto-Celtic." That was from a post on the DF27 Project from a few months ago; that makes two proto-Celtics.

OK, I'm done, no more claims of being Celtic. I've also been taken down on Anglo-Saxon. If I try Norman, no doubt I'm gone there, too. I don't think I'm Basque. I understand that my mutation is very old and predates much of these peoples, but in all the time since I've had my FTDNA tests back, I've yet to see any classification on what I am. I mean, is that unusual? Is that the norm for test results like this?

I've even read that...well, I've read a lot of things and I really don't want to start gushing like those videos you see on YouTube. "Oh, wow, look at what I am!" But that's reactions to autosomal tests, tests that show people's ancestries like M&M's in a cookie. Who were the people that DF27/Z2573 was 4,000 years ago?


If the mutation is 4900 years old, I very much doubt that that hasn't happened fairly often, by now.

We're DF27-hanim?

Gray Fox
07-11-2016, 03:49 PM
Okay, I thought I was fairly clear in my last few posts, but I guess I've left my actions open to interpretation.

I merged the thread "DF27>Z2573; "Proto-Celtic" Means What, Exactly?" with this thread because it is DF27 oriented. There was no ulterior motive behind my decision to do this, regarding some sort of "You can't call DF27 Celtic" rhetoric.

Classify me/ Guess ethnicity threads are forbidden based on the pseudoscientific nature that typically defines them. The ancient ethno-cultural group to which your y-line belonged to at one specific moment in history, isn't going to have any effect on how you look today. Your phenotype is influenced by numerous other factors besides the relatively miniscule effect the y-chromosome has, if any.

Lastly, I am not participating in the discussion of whether or not DF27 or any subclade is Celtic. I'm not an authority on the matter and my administrative role here is to moderate from an unbiased position.

Webb
07-11-2016, 04:01 PM
Okay, I thought I was fairly clear in my last few posts, but I guess I've left my actions open to interpretation.

I merged the thread "DF27>Z2573; "Proto-Celtic" Means What, Exactly?" with this thread because it is DF27 oriented. There was no ulterior motive behind my decision to do this, regarding some sort of "You can't call DF27 Celtic" rhetoric.

Classify me/ Guess ethnicity threads are forbidden based on the pseudoscientific nature that typically defines them. The ancient ethno-cultural group to which your y-line belonged to at one specific moment in history, isn't going to have any effect on how you look today. Your phenotype is influenced by numerous other factors besides the relatively miniscule effect the y-chromosome has, if any.

Lastly, I am not participating in the discussion of whether or not DF27 or any subclade is Celtic. I'm not an authority on the matter and my administrative role here is to moderate from an unbiased position.

Come on now. I'll buy you a six pack of your favorite if you'll hazard a guess!!! Two six packs if it includes anything celtic related!!!!!!

Webb
07-11-2016, 04:18 PM
I have said this before and until something different comes to light, then I will say it again. If L21 people claim that L21 is insular Celt, and U152 people claim that U152 are La Tene/ Halstaat Celt, or Alpine Celt, or whatever, then the question of where does this leave DF27 and the other P312 groups. In limbo, one would assume, because unfortunately DF27 people were not in a position to throw their own hat into the ring when the other two groups were gobbling up designations. Keep in mind that these are just claims from amateurs. The only evidence is aDNA and from this we know L21 was early in the Isles and was also part of Iron Age celts. We also know U152 was part of German Beaker. But everything else is speculation. It is very possible that L21 is insular, it seems to have the strongest correlation. But it seems much more likely that U152 represents Italic, as the language and concentration of U152 in Italy seems to mirror the same sorts of evidence used to support L21/Insular Celtic. So then what about DF99 and DF27, particularly because these two share an snp upstream with U152? It is hard to say, but I think until France becomes more involved in testing, then we are still stuck. However, if it be claimed that L21 and U152 are all/parts/a little bit celtic, then this would apply to DF27 as it is part of this large group of P312.

Gray Fox
07-11-2016, 04:43 PM
@Webb

You know me! I've participated in these discussions since the DNA-forums days. This gladiator has stepped out of the arena and headed for greener pastures though.. That is until we find some DF27 adna :)

Gray Fox
07-11-2016, 04:43 PM
@Webb

You know me! I've participated in these discussions since the DNA-forums days. This gladiator has stepped out of the arena and headed for greener pastures though.. That is until we find some DF27 adna :)

MitchellSince1893
07-11-2016, 06:55 PM
I guess I will have to ride in here and save the day.

L21=
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/st-patrick-s-day-lucky-dancing-leprechaun-18420695.jpg

U152=
http://previews.123rf.com/images/dedmazay/dedmazay1209/dedmazay120900031/15274052-Legionnaire-on-a-white-background--Stock-Vector-roman-cartoon-soldier.jpg

U106=
http://www.german-business-etiquette.com/img/15-german-stereotypes.jpg

DF27=
https://europeisnotdead.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/spain-stereotype.png

I1=
http://previews.123rf.com/images/antonbrand/antonbrand1306/antonbrand130600006/20352217-Cute-cartoon-viking-with-helmet-Isolated-on-white-Stock-Vector-viking-history.jpg

Now was that so hard? :D

Webb
07-11-2016, 07:11 PM
@MitchellSince1893, that's awesome. I have always felt like a matador, deep down inside.

razyn
07-11-2016, 07:21 PM
I guess I will have [to] ride in here and save the day.

snip

Now was that so hard?

Apparently not. Nor was it so accurate. We lack very good imagery, even in Asterix and Obelix books, from the Europe in which the larger subclades of P312 arose (or into which they poured), some five thousand years ago. I have previously suggested that a better approximation of the Bell Beaker folk, as types, might be found on the Standard of Ur. Needless to say, JeanM disagreed, for numerous technical reasons (esp. that the celebrants on the "peace" side aren't drinking from actual Beakers). But the costumes, technology and whatnot are much more contemporary with the mutations we are speculating about than the nonsense you have just posted. http://www.penn.museum/sites/iraq/?page_id=48

MitchellSince1893
07-11-2016, 07:37 PM
...Nor was it so accurate...
Uhh...it wasn't supposed to be...that was the point. :)

curiousII
07-11-2016, 08:20 PM
Uh...no.

DF27:

10322

Ric
07-13-2016, 03:12 PM
It is going to be very hard to prove that French/Northern French/Belge DF27 people do not originate from an ancient reflux from Iberia, due to proximity (I am not talking about the Spanish Netherlands here). And more or less the same is true for the British DF27.

So perhaps it would be better to focus on countries that are as far as possible from Iberia and the Basque country.
Especially Finland is interesting. If we can prove that Finnish DF27 are NOT derived from the Basque DF27 pool, then it would be a first step to prove that all DF27 people do not derive necessarily from an Iberian refuge.
In addition, Finland was never 'typically' Celtic, to say the least. If some DF27 clans arrived in Finland long before any Celtic culture existed, these clans never evolved a Celtic language and culture and therefore, being Df27 is no guaranty of having any Celtic ancestry or Celtic Iberian ancestry.

So what do we know about the peopling of Finland and the origins of DF27 Finnish men ?

curiousII
07-13-2016, 06:20 PM
It is going to be very hard to prove that French/Northern French/Belge DF27 people do not originate from an ancient reflux from Iberia...

I know you people have already seen and probably discounted this, but this from Eupedia: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/benelux_france_dna_project.shtml

"Judging from the propagation of bronze working to Western Europe, those first Proto-Celts reached France and the Low Countries by 2200 BCE, then the British Isles by 2100-2000 BCE. This first migration would have brought the L21 subclade of R1b to Northwest Europe. Through a founder effect, L21 became the dominant paternal lineage among the ancient Britons and Irish, and remained it among modern Bretons, Welsh, Highland Scots and Irish. Another migration from Germany appears to have been led by men belonging to the DF27 subclade of R1b and conquered Southwest France, then the Iberian peninsula. DF27 is now by far the main paternal lineage of the Gascons, Basques and Catalans."

I read that the Pyrenees could have influenced which and whereabouts DF27 arose. This is from a site I found, probably amateurish and unscientific to most, the validity of the information given obviously unknown by me. But that's the case with most of what you find on the Web: http://hjeltdna.blogspot.com/2015/06/were-my-ancestors-iberian-2300-1300-bc.html

"...if our ancestors ever lived on the Iberian Peninsula or not. It is believed that the DF27 men came to Iberia about 1800 BC and the subclade R-Z220 was probably born at the same time or little later... It is more probable that both R-DF27 and R-Z220 were both born on the north side of Pyrenees."

Anyway, this last fellow seems to have done some research. Up to you people to qualify or refute it; the author does reference a thread in this site's DF27 forum to support his beliefs. But Basque does seem to come up a lot in DF27 talk. Basques are in both Spain and France? Strong or weak ties to Finn DF27?

Webb
07-13-2016, 07:11 PM
Keep in mind that Yfull has a formed date of 200 B.C. For M153, which appears to be exclusively Basque. This isn't that old in comparison to DF27's age.

razyn
07-13-2016, 07:12 PM
I know you people have already seen and probably discounted this, but this from Eupedia:[/url]

"... Another migration from Germany appears to have been led by men belonging to the DF27 subclade of R1b and conquered Southwest France, then the Iberian peninsula. DF27 is now by far the main paternal lineage of the Gascons, Basques and Catalans."

I don't deeply disagree with that part; certainly less than I disagree with the impression left by Maciamo's maps (really, just what people infer from them -- Maciamo actually tells us what he's mapping, and it's not all of DF27 by any means). It would perhaps be more comprehensively correct if the next sentence from his website (which begins to discuss U152) were also included -- since those two, DF27 and U152, share a male ancestor. But this site was last updated in Jan. 2015, since when we have learned things.

More broadly speaking, I continue to think the effort to equate nations, languages, ethnicities, anthropological cultures, heroes of Irish mythology -- or whatever, with Y-DNA haplogroups, is pretty misguided. It has more to do with marketing tests than with phylogenetic science. But once it's out there, in some persuasive format, it's almost impossible to pry it loose from those who want to believe a particular aspect of it.


this last fellow seems to have done some research. Up to you people to qualify or refute it; the author does reference a thread in this site's DF27 forum to support his beliefs.

Erkki Hjelt (whose blog that is) is a member of the FTDNA project for DF27, in current group Baaaa, and keeps up quite well.

Ric
07-13-2016, 07:25 PM
All I can say is that if I didn't know the modern frequencies and all I knew was the spread of the df27 subclades, for example as seen in the BigTree, then I would have no way to infer that Spain or the Basque country was ancestral to other locations.
For example in my own clade CTS4065, it is spread from Eastern Europe to Western Europe with no obvious pattern, based on that only, there would be no way to know that the center of diffusion was Northern Spain.

I don't say that Df27 didn't spread from Northern Spain, just that the df27 subclades are already spread very early.

Also, I want to mention that the populations in Gaul, at the time of Julius Cesar, has been estimated to several millions, perhaps 10 millions for Gaul only. That's an important fact. Out of necessity to explain this number, we must assume that the conditions of life in Gaul and nearby Spain must have been pretty good, and for a long time before the arrival of Julius Cesar. Perhaps there had been a demographic boom BCE for these populations with some weird founder effect that could explain the modern frequency of Df27 in the Basque area. Perhaps the Basque population enjoyed even more this demographic boom because it didn't suffer the quasi genocide on Gauls perpetrated by the Romans.
In Finland now, I doubt there was anything close to 10 millions Finns by the time of Cesar. If a df27 branch was present in Finland BCE, there was no demographic boom for them.


PS this is a quote of the Wikipedia article on Gaul :

As many as a million people (probably 1 in 5 of the Gauls) died, another million were enslaved, 300 clans were subjugated and 800 cities were destroyed during the Gallic Wars.[citation needed] The entire population of the city of Avaricum (Bourges) (40,000 in all)[citation needed] were slaughtered.[15] During Julius Caesar's campaign against the Helvetii (present-day Switzerland) approximately 60% of that nation was destroyed, and another 20% was taken into slavery.[citation needed]

Those are really huge numbers for the time. Somehow the Gauls must have enjoyed a huge population expansion before the time of Cesar.

Ric
07-13-2016, 10:19 PM
Keep in mind that Yfull has a formed date of 200 B.C. For M153, which appears to be exclusively Basque. This isn't that old in comparison to DF27's age.
OK so that means that M153 probably appeared in Iberia/Basque. It's doesn't mean that other Basque subclades didn't move to Finland either before or even after M153 appeared.


To prove that NOT all Df27 subclades derive from Iberia, that would be the other way around, we have to find much older, like 2000-1000BC, df27 subclades that are present in Finland and neighbors, but not in Iberia. Several ones is better, because if there was only one such Finland-specific df27 subclade, one could still say that it originated in Iberia, but this once-Iberian particular subclade went extinct while those who moved to Finland survived. That'd be a sort of sampling effect. With several old Finland-specific df27 subclades, that explanation would become less likely than a non-Iberian origin...aka economy of assumption.
I don't know if such Finland-specific, and old, subclade exists. Do you know any ?
CTS4065 is old, but certainly not Finland specific. So it can't be used to prove that it originated, or not, through a Basque reflux.

lgmayka
07-14-2016, 02:49 AM
To prove that NOT all Df27 subclades derive from Iberia, that would be the other way around, we have to find much older, like 2000-1000BC, df27 subclades that are present in Finland and neighbors, but not in Iberia.
Take a look at the many tiny direct subclades of DF27 on YFull's haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/R-DF27/). For example:
FGC46562 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC46562/)- Belarus and England, 4400 years old
BY653 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-BY653/)- Ukraine and Scotland, 4200 years old

MitchellSince1893
07-14-2016, 04:39 AM
Take a look at the many tiny direct subclades of DF27 on YFull's haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/R-DF27/). For example:
FGC46562 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC46562/)- Belarus and England, 4400 years old
BY653 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-BY653/)- Ukraine and Scotland, 4200 years old

You can see a similar pattern on Alex Williamson's DF27 tree http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=29
Spain and Ukraine on a branch.
Spain and Germany on a couple of branches
Spain and Switzerland on a branch
Spain, France and England on a branch
Portugal, Scotland, and Italy on a branch
Italy and England on a branch
Slovakia and France on a branch
Spain, Denmark, France, England, and Ireland on a branch
Slovakia and Ukraine on a branch
Poland and Ukraine on a branch
Czech Rep. and Ukraine on a branch
Belarus and Romania on a branch
Ireland and Netherlands on a branch
Spain and Belarus on a branch
Scotland and Sweden on a branch
Spain, Germany, Austria, and the UK on a branch
Spain and Czech Rep on a branch
Spain and Belgium on a branch
Spain, Italy, Ireland, and Germany on a branch

Wouldn't surprise me if DF27 started out in Eastern or Central Europe along side U152 based on the above distributions.

razyn
07-14-2016, 04:53 AM
I have more or less argued with Armando about the alleged under-representation of Iberia in FTDNA projects. Admittedly, Alex's Big Tree is not an FTDNA project; but if one looks at all those "Spain and X" combinations on the Big Tree, the overwhelming majority of the (ancestrally) Iberian samples have a pink background and begin with NA or HG -- meaning they are anonymous samples from the 1000 Genomes project, sampled at pretty low resolution and mostly collected from Latin Americans. If we had similar low-resolution sequencing of a few thousand samples from the rest of Europe (where most of the population lives), I very much suspect that the DF27 bias toward Iberia would water down to a few major branches. Those branches obviously have had a lot of breeding success in that part of the subcontinent, in the last few millennia. But where else DF27 may have gone, or thrived, or originated -- we won't learn from the 1000 Genomes project.

ArmandoR1b
07-14-2016, 06:26 PM
Regardless of where DF27 actually first appeared or how limited the Iberian branches are, the under-representation of Iberia and Latin America in any of the projects is definitely real when compared to the other regions. Whether it is the FTDNA DF27 project, the BigTree by Alex Williamson, or YFull. There is absolutely no question about it. I just pulled the male populations from Iberia, non-Indigenous Latin America minus Argentina (to make up for all of the other European population there and in South America), and U.S. Hispanics then I multiplied the Iberians by the Busby R-P312(xL21,U152) rate of 40% and the Latin Americans by 30%. The total is somewhere around 100 million male DF27. Then I got the male populations for all of the European countries tested by Busby, U.S. (non-Hispanic white), Canada, and Australia then I multiplied them by the Busby rate R-P312(xL21,U152) for the respective countries. For the U.S. (non-Hispanic white), Canada, and Australia I used a rate of 20% since the populations are so heavily from the British Isles and that overestimates the real amount of R-P312(xL21,U152). I got 47.5 million but we can round up to 50 million. That means there should be twice as many Iberians and Latin American DF27 for every DF27 that isn't from there, especially since R-P312(xL21,U152,DF27) is rare in Iberia and Latin American, yet all of the projects FTDNA, BigTree, and YFull have more or the same number of DF27 from outside Iberia and Latin America than from Iberia and Latin America. This also shows that without the 1K Genomes data the Iberians and Latin Americans would be even more under represented.

ehjelt
07-14-2016, 06:51 PM
In Finland now, I doubt there was anything close to 10 millions Finns by the time of Cesar. If a df27 branch was present in Finland BCE, there was no demographic boom for them.

Official statistics begun in 1749 with a population of 410.000. Today 5,4 millions. Hardly 10 millions Finns by the time of Ceasar. No DF27 men here BCE and no demographic boom of them after that either. Today R1b is about 3% of men and I know only four tested men with hg DF27 (a few more in Sweden). So the Finnish DF27 branch is a curiosity and has nothing to contribute to this thread's theme. The age estimates of our known and novel SNPs show that this branch is born as late as 1300's AD or after. Seemingly somewhere from the Low Countries and something to do with the importing of metal manufacturing know-how to the Kingdom of Sweden (at those times Finland was a part of Sweden).

Webb
07-14-2016, 08:06 PM
Regardless of where DF27 actually first appeared or how limited the Iberian branches are, the under-representation of Iberia and Latin America in any of the projects is definitely real when compared to the other regions. Whether it is the FTDNA DF27 project, the BigTree by Alex Williamson, or YFull. There is absolutely no question about it. I just pulled the male populations from Iberia, non-Indigenous Latin America minus Argentina (to make up for all of the other European population there and in South America), and U.S. Hispanics then I multiplied the Iberians by the Busby R-P312(xL21,U152) rate of 40% and the Latin Americans by 30%. The total is somewhere around 100 million male DF27. Then I got the male populations for all of the European countries tested by Busby, U.S. (non-Hispanic white), Canada, and Australia then I multiplied them by the Busby rate R-P312(xL21,U152) for the respective countries. For the U.S. (non-Hispanic white), Canada, and Australia I used a rate of 20% since the populations are so heavily from the British Isles and that overestimates the real amount of R-P312(xL21,U152). I got 47.5 million but we can round up to 50 million. That means there should be twice as many Iberians and Latin American DF27 for every DF27 that isn't from there, especially since R-P312(xL21,U152,DF27) is rare in Iberia and Latin American, yet all of the projects FTDNA, BigTree, and YFull have more or the same number of DF27 from outside Iberia and Latin America than from Iberia and Latin America. This also shows that without the 1K Genomes data the Iberians and Latin Americans would be even more under represented.

We always seem to get to this point in this thread. Do you not understand what is trying to be accomplished here? Do you not actually read what people post. And I mean read it thoroughly? The issue isn't that DF27 is in Iberia, not for me anyway. The issue is when!!!! I have shown that we can use the North/South cluster as a prime example of using SNP by region to figure out the "when". Would you not agree that M153 is most thoroughly Pyrenees, and most specifically Basque?

razyn
07-14-2016, 09:40 PM
And really, I just meant that most of the population of Europe doesn't live in Iberia (and never did). Not that most of a 21st century census of DF27 guys worldwide would not find that in fact they have Iberian ancestry. On the way back to, you know, Ukraine or wherever they actually started.

miremont
07-14-2016, 09:42 PM
Surely what is needed most is to locate ancient remains that are positive for the DF27 mutation or one its downstream SNPs? All I have seen so far is speculation concerning the origin of DF27, and theories that seem to contradict each other.

corner
07-14-2016, 10:24 PM
Surely what is needed most is to locate ancient remains that are positive for the DF27 mutation or one its downstream SNPs?That's right. No ancient DF27 has turned up yet.

Menchaca
07-14-2016, 10:46 PM
Are aDNA samples being tested for it?

MitchellSince1893
07-15-2016, 12:45 AM
I did something similar for the U152 project...here is country info from the DF27 project...but I admit I don't understand the tree structure of DF27 that well and looking at the FTDNA project confused me a little. Looking at Alex Williamson's tree it looks like there is two main branches so that's how I organized the FTDNA data.

I filtered out duplicate surnames and multiple entries with the same ancestor and ended up with 713 entries.

10438

Webb
07-15-2016, 02:22 AM
I did something similar for the U152 project...here is country info from the DF27 project...but I admit I don't understand the tree structure of DF27 that well and looking at the FTDNA project confused me a little. Looking at Alex Williamson's tree it looks like there is two main branches so that's how I organized the FTDNA data.

I filtered out duplicate surnames and multiple entries with the same ancestor and ended up with 713 entries.

10433

If it looks ok I can convert it to maps.

That would be awesome!!!

MitchellSince1893
07-15-2016, 02:26 AM
That would be awesome!!!

Just need someone to verify the tree structure is correct.

Webb
07-15-2016, 05:05 AM
Just need someone to verify the tree structure is correct.

It should be Z195 and ZZ12. Z209 is just one of the many major lineages below Z195.

razyn
07-15-2016, 05:42 AM
There are two main SNP Packs, and DF17 (a major group downstream of Z195) is not on the Pack with Z209 -- but somewhat arbitrarily is on the DF27 Pack, with all the rest of those guys being ZZ12 (or Z195-, pretty much the same thing). As far as I know, nothing else downstream of Z195 could be considered "major;" but there could be one or two samples I guess who are something like Z274* or whatever. At the moment, there aren't any such on the Big Tree. There used to be one -- I guess Alex found him a home.

In the FTDNA DF27 project I just made those distinctions with the color coding -- did not try to get too worked up over it, since we are still in the ripples of the Great SNP Tsunami of 2014. Most of Z195 (i.e. Z209) is Light Green, DF17 is Lime Green, Z198 is Yellow -- and every other color isn't Z195+.

razyn
07-15-2016, 06:22 AM
That's right. No ancient DF27 has turned up yet.
Unless Underhill knew how to draw a tree chart, I know how to read one, and M12124 (22161863, G to A) is actually below DF27 (which he called S250). In which case, RISE560 (an ancient sample, Bell Beaker context, Augsburg area) is the most ancient known DF27, and located fairly near the most ancient known U152 (RISE563, from Osterhofen). AFAIK the jury is either still out, or hung, on the question of the correct tree placement of M12124. Somewhere below L11 and short of satisfaction.

corner
07-15-2016, 10:48 AM
AFAIK the jury is either still out, or hung, on the question of the correct tree placement of M12124. Somewhere below L11 and short of satisfaction.Ybrowse seems to show M12124 (Y15172 aka Z33940) belonging to haplogroup J2?:

http://ybrowse.org/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=22161863;end=22161863;name=M12 124;class=Sequence;feature_id=159109;db_id=chrY%3A database

corner
07-15-2016, 11:06 AM
Are aDNA samples being tested for it?They're being tested for something. There are P312* Bell Beaker folk (eg. I0806 from Quedlinburg, Germany and the above mentioned RISE560). If the tests can't 'see' DF27 or a known subclade of it, the aDNA will be reported as P312 even if they are DF27+. Chip-based tests can't read DF27 and even NGS tests struggle with DF27 itself if there are no known subclades below it.

Webb
07-15-2016, 11:28 AM
There are two main SNP Packs, and DF17 (a major group downstream of Z195) is not on the Pack with Z209 -- but somewhat arbitrarily is on the DF27 Pack, with all the rest of those guys being ZZ12 (or Z195-, pretty much the same thing). As far as I know, nothing else downstream of Z195 could be considered "major;" but there could be one or two samples I guess who are something like Z274* or whatever. At the moment, there aren't any such on the Big Tree. There used to be one -- I guess Alex found him a home.

In the FTDNA DF27 project I just made those distinctions with the color coding -- did not try to get too worked up over it, since we are still in the ripples of the Great SNP Tsunami of 2014. Most of Z195 (i.e. Z209) is Light Green, DF17 is Lime Green, Z198 is Yellow -- and every other color isn't Z195+.

My point was that Z209 is but one branch leading to a big bush.

razyn
07-15-2016, 01:21 PM
Ybrowse seems to show M12124 (Y15172 aka Z33940) belonging to haplogroup J2?:

http://ybrowse.org/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=22161863;end=22161863;name=M12 124;class=Sequence;feature_id=159109;db_id=chrY%3A database

The one I saw last night is from the correct sample (SUFG001) and is a different position/mutation entirely. http://ybrowse.y-chromosome.org/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=22161863;end=22161863;name=M12 124;class=Sequence;feature_id=211617;db_id=chrY%3A database

I suppose that's a classic example of "your mileage may vary." I'll paste in a screen shot for the record, YBrowse urls tend to lose their moorings with time.

10439


Edit: In case a match for RISE560's M12124 ever shows up, so we can prove what haplogroup he belongs to -- these are our two previous discussions of the matter, a year ago. They were a bit hard to find, because neither thread ran in a DF27-specific section of Anthrogenica:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4664-Request-Y-DNA-haplogroup-results-from-Allentoft-2015&p=90877&viewfull=1#post90877
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4723-Dissection-of-the-Y-SNP-S116-in-Atlantic-Europe-and-Iberia-Valverde-et-al-2015&p=91220&viewfull=1#post91220

MitchellSince1893
07-15-2016, 01:22 PM
I did something similar for the U152 project...here is country info from the DF27 project...but I admit I don't understand the tree structure of DF27 that well and looking at the FTDNA project confused me a little. Looking at Alex Williamson's tree it looks like there is two main branches so that's how I organized the FTDNA data.

I filtered out duplicate surnames and multiple entries with the same ancestor and ended up with 713 entries.

10438

Updated chart and associated map
Because they didn't have enough samples on their own, I combined, Belarus and Ukraine, and Austria, Hungary, Czech Rep, and Slovakia (see bottom of chart).

In some cases, percentage wise there really isn't much of a difference between the two branches so the color difference isn't that meaningful.

1044010441

razyn
07-15-2016, 01:32 PM
I always find your maps interesting, and usually find something to argue about. Anyway thanks for the alternative view. Maciamo's "DF27" map is based on M153 (the virtually Basque-specific one) and SRY2627 -- both of which are below Z195, though with the data filtered by your method, Z195 isn't even the larger side of Iberian DF27.

And with the old North/South Cluster filtered this way, it actually runs north and south (the pink blob).

MitchellSince1893
07-15-2016, 01:39 PM
Not sure if there is a significance but just like my U152 maps Poland is the opposite of Germany.

corner
07-15-2016, 01:55 PM
YBrowse urls tend to lose their moorings with time.

10439

That'll be it - thought it was weird.

MitchellSince1893
07-16-2016, 12:25 AM
Not sure if there is a significance but just like my U152 maps Poland is the opposite of Germany.

U152 maps for reference http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?36-R1b-U152-Updates-News&p=155764&viewfull=1#post155764

Mark D
07-20-2016, 01:05 AM
Hi all, I'm curious to hear your comments on the May Nature article from Reich that mentioned,

"We were surprised to find haplogroup R1b in the ~14,000-year-old Villabruna individual from Italy. While the predominance of R1b in western Europe today owes its origin to Bronze Age migrations from the eastern European steppe9, its presence in
Villabruna and in a ~7,000-year-old farmer from Iberia9 documents a deeper history of this haplotype in more western parts of Europe."

https://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Press_files/FuQ_nature17993.pdf

Doesn't everyone have to draw new migration maps, like a littoral one around the Med for R1b? I never could accept being descended from some steppe horsemen and always thought there was some logic to "Celtic from the West". It's not far around the coasts to northern Iberia and thence Gaul and the British Isles, and there's an R1b isolate in interior Algeria unrelated to French colonialism that no one has accounted for. R1b could have been well-established for thousands of years in western Europe, as Reich calls "a deeper history".

MitchellSince1893
07-20-2016, 01:24 AM
Hi all, I'm curious to hear your comments on the May Nature article from Reich that mentioned,

"We were surprised to find haplogroup R1b in the ~14,000-year-old Villabruna individual from Italy. While the predominance of R1b in western Europe today owes its origin to Bronze Age migrations from the eastern European steppe9, its presence in
Villabruna and in a ~7,000-year-old farmer from Iberia9 documents a deeper history of this haplotype in more western parts of Europe."

https://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Press_files/FuQ_nature17993.pdf

Doesn't everyone have to draw new migration maps, like a littoral one around the Med for R1b? I never could accept being descended from some steppe horsemen and always thought there was some logic to "Celtic from the West". It's not far around the coasts to northern Iberia and thence Gaul and the British Isles, and there's an R1b isolate in interior Algeria unrelated to French colonialism that no one has accounted for. R1b could have been well-established for thousands of years in western Europe, as Reich calls "a deeper history".

Recommend you search this forum...there were multiple threads and hundreds of posts about this when it came out.

Search "Villabruna"

Or go to this thread http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7057-The-genetic-history-of-Ice-Age-Europe

alan
07-20-2016, 04:05 AM
Hi all, I'm curious to hear your comments on the May Nature article from Reich that mentioned,

"We were surprised to find haplogroup R1b in the ~14,000-year-old Villabruna individual from Italy. While the predominance of R1b in western Europe today owes its origin to Bronze Age migrations from the eastern European steppe9, its presence in
Villabruna and in a ~7,000-year-old farmer from Iberia9 documents a deeper history of this haplotype in more western parts of Europe."

https://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Press_files/FuQ_nature17993.pdf

Doesn't everyone have to draw new migration maps, like a littoral one around the Med for R1b? I never could accept being descended from some steppe horsemen and always thought there was some logic to "Celtic from the West". It's not far around the coasts to northern Iberia and thence Gaul and the British Isles, and there's an R1b isolate in interior Algeria unrelated to French colonialism that no one has accounted for. R1b could have been well-established for thousands of years in western Europe, as Reich calls "a deeper history".

but European R1b is almost all derived from L23, a marker of c. 4000BC or so which has been proven to be in steppe around 3300BC onwards in ancient DNA . Very ancient branch offs of R1b like Villabruna are dead ends irrelevant to living R1b in Europe. So it seems you will have to embrace your inner steppe horseman.

razyn
07-20-2016, 12:41 PM
In case a match for RISE560's M12124 ever shows up, so we can prove what haplogroup he belongs to -- these are our two previous discussions of the matter, a year ago. They were a bit hard to find, because neither thread ran in a DF27-specific section of Anthrogenica:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4664-Request-Y-DNA-haplogroup-results-from-Allentoft-2015&p=90877&viewfull=1#post90877
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4723-Dissection-of-the-Y-SNP-S116-in-Atlantic-Europe-and-Iberia-Valverde-et-al-2015&p=91220&viewfull=1#post91220
The match was SUFG001, after all. Plenty of evidence is in a supplementary table for the Underhill et al (2014) paper -- which I found with Dr. Underhill's assistance, a couple of days ago. I have posted about it on one of the old threads just mentioned, because that thread is about aDNA more generally. The Underhill et al paper in question is nominally about R1a; but its Fig. 5, p. 6 identifies a couple of R1b>P312>DF27 exemplars, including SUFG001. http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/full/ejhg201450a.html

Ric
07-20-2016, 01:03 PM
These threads have each 25 pages, at least. Can we have some more details about this SUFG001, is it a modern human who matches the RISE560 ancient dna ?
And if yes, where is he from, can we have some details etc.

razyn
07-20-2016, 01:18 PM
The details I know about were posted here, at about 1:35 AM my time. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4664-Request-Y-DNA-haplogroup-results-from-Allentoft-2015&p=171953&viewfull=1#post171953

They don't include the surname or place of origin of SUFG001. I assume that's some intentionally anonymized sample. But the Underhill paper describes it as European, and from blood; so I believe that would have to be modern.

I'm currently in travel status and can't really participate in any discussion today -- have my computer with me, but am not free to get on it very often.

Ric
07-20-2016, 02:36 PM
The details I know about were posted here, at about 1:35 AM my time. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4664-Request-Y-DNA-haplogroup-results-from-Allentoft-2015&p=171953&viewfull=1#post171953

They don't include the surname or place of origin of SUFG001. I assume that's some intentionally anonymized sample. But the Underhill paper describes it as European, and from blood; so I believe that would have to be modern.

I'm currently in travel status and can't really participate in any discussion today -- have my computer with me, but am not free to get on it very often.

Thanks, I'd like to discuss more, specifically what were the matching snps between the modern (anonymous unfortunately) and the RISE560 Bell beaker, but I i'll wait...

Webb
07-20-2016, 08:00 PM
Thanks, I'd like to discuss more, specifically what were the matching snps between the modern (anonymous unfortunately) and the RISE560 Bell beaker, but I i'll wait...

Ric, please see the thread under aDNA mentioning the Allencroft study. Razyn posted there as well. It looks like it is a marker around or just below Z214.

Camulogène Rix
07-23-2016, 02:21 PM
[QUOTE=MitchellSince1893;170877]Updated chart and associated map
Because they didn't have enough samples on their own, I combined, Belarus and Ukraine, and Austria, Hungary, Czech Rep, and Slovakia (see bottom of chart).

In some cases, percentage wise there really isn't much of a difference between the two branches so the color difference isn't that meaningful.

According your interesting map, the proportion of DF 27 in Italy is very thin. In can definitely trace back my patrilinear ancestry to northern Lombardy & Swiss Ticino, where U152 largely prevails. For me the low presence of DF 27 in this specific area is an enigma, especially if we compare with southern and western France. Could you please bring me more information on this subject?

ArmandoR1b
07-25-2016, 11:47 AM
We always seem to get to this point in this thread. Do you not understand what is trying to be accomplished here? Do you not actually read what people post. And I mean read it thoroughly? The issue isn't that DF27 is in Iberia, not for me anyway. The issue is when!!!!

You obviously failed to read the reason I brought it all up again. Razyn brought up a discussion that I have had with him in the past and made a point to bring up "alleged under-representation of Iberia in FTDNA projects" and how 1000 Genomes has too many Iberian and Latin American samples. I only countered that info. So it is an issue with him about the Iberian and Latin American samples. And really? Extra exclamation points? LOL.

His point should have been that Eastern Europe is under-represented and not infer that I incorrectly stated that Iberia and Latin America are under-represented when they really are.


I have shown that we can use the North/South cluster as a prime example of using SNP by region to figure out the "when".
That has nothing to do with the statement I was countering I don't remember what you have written. Even so SNP region is not proof of when. It is only proof of where. Especially since we don't yet have thousands of high quality samples from all over Europe and still not enough high quality ancient DNA.


Would you not agree that M153 is most thoroughly Pyrenees, and most specifically Basque?
Again, that is going off track from the message that I was countering.

Webb
07-25-2016, 01:56 PM
You obviously failed to read the reason I brought it all up again. Razyn brought up a discussion that I have had with him in the past and made a point to bring up "alleged under-representation of Iberia in FTDNA projects" and how 1000 Genomes has too many Iberian and Latin American samples. I only countered that info. So it is an issue with him about the Iberian and Latin American samples. And really? Extra exclamation points? LOL.

His point should have been that Eastern Europe is under-represented and not infer that I incorrectly stated that Iberia and Latin America are under-represented when they really are.


That has nothing to do with the statement I was countering I don't remember what you have written. Even so SNP region is not proof of when. It is only proof of where. Especially since we don't yet have thousands of high quality samples from all over Europe and still not enough high quality ancient DNA.


Again, that is going off track from the message that I was countering.

The extra exclamation points were used as a stressor. In my opinion you use testing bias as a shield, when it suites your argument. So I am actually going to use your argument in regards to M153. That is why it is relevant to me and not really off track. If we assume your testing bias is correct, which I don't believe it is as drastic as you say it is, but if we assume it is, then we can say that M153 is specific to a region, can we not? There are no M153 samples outside of the Pyrenees in the FTDNA project or in the 1000 genome project. And with such a testing bias towards the British Iles we should find M153, but we do not. We find other North/South cluster snp's upstream of M153. M153 was formed around 2400 ybp according to Yfull, so because of the strong presence in the Pyrenees and little outside of this area, I would think it safe to assume it was probably formed very close to this region. So this, to me is a good place to start with the North/South cluster for date and region. You claim that snp region is not proof of when, but have you informed everyone at the L21 forum page of this? I believe there are quite a few threads about this very subject. Many snp's found in the isles are not found on the continent, therefore, assuming they were formed in the isles.

razyn
07-25-2016, 02:08 PM
If anyone actually cares -- I only reiterated our little difference of opinion (about proportionate representation of Iberians, when DF27 is the subject matter, as it is in this thread and this part of the forum). I actually agree with you [Armando]; I just don't think it's helpful to beat the percentages in modern stats to death (whether we are discussing DF27 Iberians, L21 Irish or U106 Germans) in discussions that are fundamentally concerned with origins and direction of movement -- in the cases of these haplogroups, a few thousand years ago. The modern percentages can be, and we know often are, very misleading. That's the case whether they are from disproportionately sampled modern guys testing at FTDNA; or carefully balanced modern samples tested (sort of) six to ten years ago for some academic paper, that was then "juried" by colleagues who had no clue about the actual phylogeny, or about what aDNA would reveal (because neither was yet known, six to ten years ago).

I still contend that for this particular discussion (DF27, and whether it was pouring into or refluxing out of Iberia), the imbalance in FTDNA testers is pretty well compensated for by the opposite imbalance in the 1000 Genomes project. Both YFull and the Big Tree use, and compare, both skewed sources. It's sadly true that eastern Europe (or western Asia, whatever) is not well represented in either data set. Lgmayka and others bring that up often enough, so I don't feel much need to do so. And modern samples from east of the Rhine are still modern; they share the phylogenetic baggage of millennia with the modern ones from farther west, in the SNPs of which we are more thoroughly awash.

Webb
07-25-2016, 02:52 PM
If anyone actually cares -- I only reiterated our little difference of opinion (about proportionate representation of Iberians, when DF27 is the subject matter, as it is in this thread and this part of the forum). I actually agree with you [Armando]; I just don't think it's helpful to beat the percentages in modern stats to death (whether we are discussing DF27 Iberians, L21 Irish or U106 Germans) in discussions that are fundamentally concerned with origins and direction of movement -- in the cases of these haplogroups, a few thousand years ago. The modern percentages can be, and we know often are, very misleading. That's the case whether they are from disproportionately sampled modern guys testing at FTDNA; or carefully balanced modern samples tested (sort of) six to ten years ago for some academic paper, that was then "juried" by colleagues who had no clue about the actual phylogeny, or about what aDNA would reveal (because neither was yet known, six to ten years ago).

I still contend that for this particular discussion (DF27, and whether it was pouring into or refluxing out of Iberia), the imbalance in FTDNA testers is pretty well compensated for by the opposite imbalance in the 1000 Genomes project. Both YFull and the Big Tree use, and compare, both skewed sources. It's sadly true that eastern Europe (or western Asia, whatever) is not well represented in either data set. Lgmayka and others bring that up often enough, so I don't feel much need to do so. And modern samples from east of the Rhine are still modern; they share the phylogenetic baggage of millennia with the modern ones from farther west, in the SNPs of which we are more thoroughly awash.

How likely is it that RISE560 and SUFG001 are Z214? So far I do not believe any Z214 FTDNA or 1000 genomes samples are from anywhere as far east as Germany, which I am sure you know, as you admin. the DF27 project. In fact if one looks at modern distribution of Z214, then it looks Pyrenees/Iberian.

ArmandoR1b
07-25-2016, 03:21 PM
Updated chart and associated map
Because they didn't have enough samples on their own, I combined, Belarus and Ukraine, and Austria, Hungary, Czech Rep, and Slovakia (see bottom of chart).

In some cases, percentage wise there really isn't much of a difference between the two branches so the color difference isn't that meaningful.

1044010441

A higher participation rate can create the illusion of a higher percentage of a subclade compared to other countries. As you can see from your table, England has the single highest number of participants and you are using the participation rate for your percentages even the though population of England is lower than some countries with a higher rate of DF27 such as Italy, Germany, and France. This is what both I and razyn have been talking about but using different perspectives and points of interest. I can agree with him that Europe, outside of the Isles, Iberia, Latin America, and even outside of France in some cases is under-represented (but not that 1000 Genomes is causing an over-representation of Iberia and Latin America. I'm not trying to go back into that discussion here. I am just stating how our points differed that discussion in case this was misunderstood.) I also agree, as I have stated several times in several threads, that where a subclade pooled is not proof of the source so using these maps are not for finding the definite source regardless of how accurate the maps become. What is needed is not just one but several high quality ancient specimens, with accurate reliable RC dates and isotope testing, of people that directly descend from DF27 so the Y-DNA, autosomal DNA, RC dates, and isotopes can be compared. The expected Bell Beaker study will hopefully provide some.

Anyway, if you were to make a map of the Busby et al. samples (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/highwire/filestream/46176/field_highwire_adjunct_files/1/rspb20111044supp2.xls) then you would see a much different layout in your map of Europe of presumed DF27 which is labeled as R-S116(xS145,S28) in the Busby table. One problem with the table is that some sample groups from the exact same country show 0% R-S116(xS145,S28) but some show up to 2.2% or even as high as 5.7% for Ukraine. It is hard to tell which percentage is more accurate without hundreds of NGS samples from each country. Keep in mind that the Busby percentages are compared to all haplogroups even though they don't specify the non-R1b haplogroups.

Another way to find percentages is to use the YFull data since they include all haplogroups albeit the surnames aren't shown and therefore can't be culled. Even so, as long as there are enough samples, there isn't going to be a 10% or more difference just because of that. There seem to be so many singletons that it should be a non-issue. Here we also run into the problem of an under-representation of samples from countries outside of the Isles, Iberia, and Latin America this time including France.


10633

Something that we can see from both your table and my table is that Z195 and DF27xZ195 (ZZ12) is within 5% of each other in all of the countries when there are sufficient samples.

razyn
07-25-2016, 03:26 PM
I don't see any good reason to doubt that SUFG001 is Z214. He has two or more positive hits for a whole string of its upstream SNPs. But I also have no idea where he's from; could be Bilbao, for all I know. Or Kiev.

The SNP M12124, that SUFG001 shares with RISE560 (dug up in Augsburg), is a real SNP. If it recurs, nobody seems yet to have logged its recurrence (e.g. in another haplogroup). So, if you really, really want YFull to be right about the age of Z214; or for the Augsburg Bell Beaker guy to be refluxing eastward from some already well diversified, Iberian DF27 population -- it is possible to cling to those beliefs. We lack unambiguous aDNA that might be able to prove it, one way or the other.

To me, the DF27 tree appears to branch more fully as it moves from east to west. It's possible that YFull's SNP-count method of dating is still a bit flawed. And it's possible that a youthful Z214 is still on his way west (for the first time) in RISE560 -- whose tribe has yet to give birth to the first M153. I'm not arguing for that; I'm just asserting it as a possible interpretation of the minuscule (if it's even real) available DF27 data from aDNA. I do think it should be coupled with U152 (because of their shared parent ZZ11); and the minuscule sample of that shows about the same thing. It's not much, in either case, but it's the same little hint about them both.

ArmandoR1b
07-25-2016, 03:39 PM
The extra exclamation points were used as a stressor.
It stressed something different than what I had been stating.


In my opinion you use testing bias as a shield, when it suites your argument.
LOL


So I am actually going to use your argument in regards to M153. That is why it is relevant to me and not really off track. If we assume your testing bias is correct, which I don't believe it is as drastic as you say it is, but if we assume it is, then we can say that M153 is specific to a region, can we not? There are no M153 samples outside of the Pyrenees in the FTDNA project or in the 1000 genome project. And with such a testing bias towards the British Iles we should find M153, but we do not. We find other North/South cluster snp's upstream of M153. M153 was formed around 2400 ybp according to Yfull, so because of the strong presence in the Pyrenees and little outside of this area, I would think it safe to assume it was probably formed very close to this region. So this, to me is a good place to start with the North/South cluster for date and region.
There are M153 samples from outside the Pyrenees. It doesn't matter though. Pooling of a specific subclade can easily mean that it prospered there. That is what happened with M153. Even so, M153 is just a small percent of DF27 even in the Basque region. See http://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(15)30174-8/fulltext where it shows it to be 6.55% of the Autochthonous Basques and DF27 is 70.74% of the Autochthonous Basques. It could have started there but it would be because an upstream SNP from M153 but downstream from DF27, made it's there way first.


You claim that snp region is not proof of when, but have you informed everyone at the L21 forum page of this? I believe there are quite a few threads about this very subject. Many snp's found in the isles are not found on the continent, therefore, assuming they were formed in the isles.L21 is also found in the Czech Republic, Croatia, and many other places. L21 was likely to have started in the continent also just like DF27.

None of what you have just written refutes that there is a participation bias. There was even another thread dedicated to the participation bias for people with ancestry from the Isles. Neither does anything that you have written point to a pooling of DNA being close to the point of origin. Although with U152 being between DF27 and U106 territory it makes one wonder if it wasn't in that area that P312 first came about and spread in all directions. But that is far from provable at this point.

Webb
07-25-2016, 03:52 PM
I don't see any good reason to doubt that SUFG001 is Z214. He has two or more positive hits for a whole string of its upstream SNPs. But I also have no idea where he's from; could be Bilbao, for all I know. Or Kiev.

The SNP M12124, that SUFG001 shares with RISE560 (dug up in Augsburg), is a real SNP. If it recurs, nobody seems yet to have logged its recurrence (e.g. in another haplogroup). So, if you really, really want YFull to be right about the age of Z214; or for the Augsburg Bell Beaker guy to be refluxing eastward from some already well diversified, Iberian DF27 population -- it is possible to cling to those beliefs. We lack unambiguous aDNA that might be able to prove it, one way or the other.

To me, the DF27 tree appears to branch more fully as it moves from east to west. It's possible that YFull's SNP-count method of dating is still a bit flawed. And it's possible that a youthful Z214 is still on his way west (for the first time) in RISE560 -- whose tribe has yet to give birth to the first M153. I'm not arguing for that; I'm just asserting it as a possible interpretation of the minuscule (if it's even real) available DF27 data from aDNA. I do think it should be coupled with U152 (because of their shared parent ZZ11); and the minuscule sample of that shows about the same thing. It's not much, in either case, but it's the same little hint about them both.

I understand your thoughts. Some people are pushing P312 from the west, and others from the East. While I think M269 did move from the East towards the west, I like the birth of P312 somewhere along the Danube. As far west as Germany, as far east as Hungary. Maybe. My thought is that while eastern Europe is under tested, will we eventually see Z214 outside of Iberia/Pyrenees in modern populations? Did it move west lock, stock, and barrel?

alan
07-25-2016, 05:51 PM
if there was an agreed SNP dating for P312 this would narrow the options down. It could even rule out some areas and cultures as origin point/culture of P312. I havent seen much further chewing over this recently

MitchellSince1893
07-25-2016, 07:54 PM
if there was an agreed SNP dating for P312 this would narrow the options down. It could even rule out some areas and cultures as origin point/culture of P312. I havent seen much further chewing over this recently

At present Yfull is using 353 samples to date P312. Note: Yfull doesn't use the average of all samples, but rather the average of all branches, which works out to 4317 ybp.

*R-DF27* 4630
*R-U152* 4706
*R-DF19* 5660
*R-Z2244* 4813
*R-L21* 5178
*R-DF99* 4489
*R-Y18209* 5273
*YF02390* 4976
*YF02891* 3495
*YF05772* 3880
*YF02876* 4211
*YF06226* 4021
*YF06077* 4042
*YF04807* 2948
*YF03957* 3607
*YF04539* 3716
*YF02861* 4994
*YF04850* 3779
*YF06006* 3892
*YF02766* 4442
*YF02744* 4385
*YF03995* 2954
*YF05889* 6643
*YF05176* 3379
*YF02879* 3818


But the ones in bold above are singletons (one sample with no matches below P312), which IMO may be skewing the numbers.

Looking at the Big 3, (U152, DF27, and L21), we get a range of 4630 to 5178 ybp (3228 - 2680 BC) for P312, with an average of 4838 ybp (2888 BC)

FWIW almost 1/4 of the 353 samples (78 samples) date P312 between 4642 and 5072 ybp (3122- 2692 BC)...see far left column in chart below.

The average of all samples being 4871 ybp (2921 BC) and the median being 4828 ybp (2878 BC).


10640

Thus ~2900 BC give or take a couple hundred years would be my guess on the age of P312

alan
07-25-2016, 09:57 PM
At present Yfull is using 353 samples to date P312. Note: Yfull doesn't use the average of all samples, but rather the average of all branches, which works out to 4317 ybp.

*R-DF27* 4630
*R-U152* 4706
*R-DF19* 5660
*R-Z2244* 4813
*R-L21* 5178
*R-DF99* 4489
*R-Y18209* 5273
*YF02390* 4976
*YF02891* 3495
*YF05772* 3880
*YF02876* 4211
*YF06226* 4021
*YF06077* 4042
*YF04807* 2948
*YF03957* 3607
*YF04539* 3716
*YF02861* 4994
*YF04850* 3779
*YF06006* 3892
*YF02766* 4442
*YF02744* 4385
*YF03995* 2954
*YF05889* 6643
*YF05176* 3379
*YF02879* 3818


But the ones in bold above are singletons (one sample with no matches below P312), which IMO may be skewing the numbers.

Looking at the Big 3, (U152, DF27, and L21), we get a range of 4630 to 5178 ybp (3228 - 2680 BC) for P312, with an average of 4838 ybp (2888 BC)

FWIW almost 1/4 of the 353 samples (78 samples) date P312 between 4642 and 5072 ybp (3122- 2692 BC)...see far left column in chart below.

The average of all samples being 4871 ybp (2921 BC) and the median being 4828 ybp (2878 BC).


10640

Thus ~2900 BC give or take a couple hundred years would be my guess on the age of P312

If 2900BC or younger was literally the date that would make it impossible for P312 to have arrived at the start of the Iberian copper age c. 3100BC. Its too close to call with so much wriggle room and confidence intervals but on balance it seems likely P312 is a bit too young to have arrived in Iberia with the pre-beaker copper age. At the other end of Europe P312's age is similar to the wave of Yamnaya into east-central Europe.

razyn
09-08-2016, 04:50 PM
I do think it [the earliest DF27] should be coupled with U152 (because of their shared parent ZZ11); and the minuscule sample of that shows about the same thing. It's not much, in either case, but it's the same little hint about them both.
In that regard, I should link today's discovery by Alex Williamson of a potential DF27 signal in the confirmed ZZ11+ aDNA sample I0806, from Quedlinburg, Germany in a Bell Beaker burial of the 2400-2100 BC period (with some Corded Ware grave goods associated).
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8476-More-Bell-Beaker-U152-and-one-ZZ11&p=185392&viewfull=1#post185392

curiousII
09-09-2016, 07:16 PM
"... potential DF27 signal in the confirmed ZZ11+ aDNA sample I0806, from Quedlinburg, Germany in a Bell Beaker burial..."

OK! Now we're German for a while. No more matador?:deadhorse:

edit: I ordered a Family Finder while it was on sale for $69. I'm kind of prepared for the results this time; I wasn't at the other company I used. It came back with a whole lot of hits in South America, I had Native American listed in my results. But there were only one or two hits in North America, and not all of them were bright green (that company used a different map than FTDNA. They had dots for matches). If I was NA then I'd have an equal amount of North American hits, but I didn't and now with my Z2573 a good guess is that those matches are from colonial interbreeding.

I imagine that's the same for the North Africa hits, too.

I've been reading up on that. My hits in Australia and South Africa are from R1b carriers spreading their lineage with the natives, the South Africa match was said to be European, too. So when my FTDNA map comes in, I bet I'll have globes or blobs (whatever those colored splats are) just about all over.

I suppose it'll show me just how far away I am from my R-Z2573. I still say the point of a person's origins is more important to who he is than the autosomal tests we're offered now. Those just cover the last 300-500 years, and in my case that leaves out maybe 34,500 years of ancestry in my mtDNA H11a, and around 4,300 years in my y-DNA haplogroup. When you see these people say that an autosomal test gives you a better estimate of who you are ethnically, they entirely omit the heritage that the present autosomal tests don't catch. My opinion on that, for what it's worth, is that there's a lot of room for improvement in autosomals.

razyn
09-14-2016, 02:11 PM
This thread has been running nearly 2 1/2 years, normally discussing its actual topic: where did DF27 originate? Within the past week a major discovery relevant to that topic has been made, and although discussion of that has been minimal thus far, it should be of primary interest here if anywhere. Therefore I don't want to leave, as the latest post on this thread, a digression about autosomal DNA.

One pertinent fact that gets skipped over by people who haven't heard about it (and that includes most people) is that DF27 is no longer immediately below P312 -- if one places any credence in the additional branching points, caused by SNPs that for one reason or another don't get onto everybody's version of the Y haplotree.* In this version from http://www.ytree.net/ the sequence is R1b-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > DF27/S250. That matters, because every time there is a branching point, there is the possibility that the branches (at first individual men, but eventually their whole lineage) will go their separate ways. Some branches will flourish, some will die out. In this case the DF27 branch (three levels below P312) has flourished quite prominently in the parts of Europe that are shaded most heavily (representing high percentage in the present, tested male population) on haplogroup "heat maps" of the Eupedia type. These maps are not drawn with the aim of deceiving, but what they show has taken a long time (in the case of DF27, roughly 4,500 years) to develop; they are not maps of haplogroup origin. Anyway, have a look at Alex Williamson's version of the R1b-P312 tree. Hint: we DF27 people, and our brother clade U152, are somewhere in the lower left of this partial screen shot (click to enlarge):
11622
Returning to the significance of this week's discovery that ancient DNA sample I0806 is ZZ11+ and DF27+, I posted about that yesterday morning on the "Celtic from the West" thread here. I keep cross-referencing these threads in the hope that they will be seen by a variety of people whose particular interest may be from a different perspective (archaeology, linguistics, or other fields besides genetic genealogy, that may be informed by one another's news).
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5756-Celtic-from-the-West&p=186429&viewfull=1#post186429

*ZZ11 has had a good bit of discussion by now, perhaps more of it on U152 than on DF27 threads. The less familiar level marked by Z40481 has had little discussion or impact so far, most of it here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7150-Z40481-Splits-R-P312&p=156214&viewfull=1#post156214

Ric
09-14-2016, 03:40 PM
Thanks for keeping us up to date. We are counting on you for that. The info about a second DF27 bell beaker in Germany was indeed very important. There is a French proverbial that says 'never two but three' so let's wait for the next. It would be interesting to put these two df27 BB, even putatively, in the BigTree or somewhere in the df27 groups. Were they tested for STR or SNP ? and where would you put them in the groups, razyn, Ub ?

razyn
09-14-2016, 04:42 PM
Well, this I0806 sample isn't really second, it's first. The other one, RISE560, is still unconfirmed, until it can be proven that M12124 is a valid DF27 marker (i.e., excludes other possible haplogroups). The only good sample of it so far is modern, but anonymous; we can't say much about its provenance or origin. M12124 seems (so far, on thin evidence) to be well downstream of DF27 -- almost too far, for the presumed age of RISE560. That aDNA sample is Bell Beaker, but isn't carbon 14 dated; so it gives a much less precise data point, for that purpose. It has the geography, but not really the timeline, that's needed in order to make any convincing assertions that differ with other proposed models of the origin and diffusion of the DF27 haplogroup.

But I0806 is pretty convincing; is as well dated as one might hope; and apparently is a good bit higher on the tree. We might call it DF27*, rather than some subclade about five levels below DF27 on a known tree branch. What's really still needed (and may already be hovering in the publication process where we just can't see it yet) is some more basal P312, or for that matter L11, P310, M269 -- any of the missing links between a known R1b population on the lower Volga and these few ancient samples from the M269 branches that appear to have been vectors of the Indo-European language family, and to have flourished since the Bronze Age in western Europe (and other places populated from there in recent centuries).

When we do have a larger aDNA sample, much more precise understanding should be possible for the origin areas, ages, and direction(s) of migration of these male lineages. If they also begin to match up with interesting archaeological cultures, and later with known language families, that will be even better. For the moment, we only are able to plant one flag on a very large map, and change its local caption from something like "Here be dragons" to "Here be DF27, 2250 BCE." Then arguing with that is somebody else's job.

TigerMW
09-15-2016, 02:23 PM
This thread has been running nearly 2 1/2 years, normally discussing its actual topic: where did DF27 originate? Within the past week a major discovery relevant to that topic has been made, and although discussion of that has been minimal thus far, it should be of primary interest here if anywhere. Therefore I don't want to leave, as the latest post on this thread, a digression about autosomal DNA.

One pertinent fact that gets skipped over by people who haven't heard about it (and that includes most people) is that DF27 is no longer immediately below P312 -- if one places any credence in the additional branching points, caused by SNPs that for one reason or another don't get onto everybody's version of the Y haplotree. In this version from http://www.ytree.net/ the sequence is R1b-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > DF27/S250. That matters, because every time there is a branching point, there is the possibility that the branches (at first individual men, but eventually their whole lineage) will go their separate ways. Some branches will flourish, some will die out. In this case the DF27 branch (three levels below P312) has flourished quite prominently in the parts of Europe that are shaded most heavily (representing high percentage in the present, tested male population) on haplogroup "heat maps" of the Eupedia type. These maps are not drawn with the aim of deceiving, but what they show has taken a long time (in the case of DF27, roughly 4,500 years) to develop; they are not maps of haplogroup origin. Anyway, have a look at Alex Williamson's version of the R1b-P312 tree. Hint: we DF27 people, and our brother clade U152, are somewhere in the lower left of this partial screen shot (click to enlarge):
11622
Returning to the significance of this week's discovery that ancient DNA sample I0806 is ZZ11+ and DF27+, I posted about that yesterday morning on the "Celtic form the West" thread here. I keep cross-referencing these threads in the hope that they will be seen by a variety of people whose particular interest may be from a different perspective (archaeology, linguistics, or other fields besides genetic genealogy, that may be informed by one another's news).
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5756-Celtic-from-the-West&p=186429&viewfull=1#post186429
Thanks, for keeping things moving, Razyn.
The amazing thing is that we are talking about individuals, real individuals. There was a Most Recent Common Ancestor for DF27 and he was a single individual and very real. That means his location his pinpointed in him albeit he may have migrated during his lifetime.
His ancestors, the Z11 MRCA, the Z40481 MRCA and the P312 MRCA didn't live each but a handful (or less) generations between each other. This means brothers and cousins like U152 are part of the puzzle.
This has to push P312 east, no more west than Central Europe, and due east of the Alps and also the north and east sides of the Carpathians have to be considered

Arch
09-19-2016, 09:27 AM
Thanks, for keeping things moving, Razyn.
The amazing thing is that we are talking about individuals, real individuals. There was a Most Recent Common Ancestor for DF27 and he was a single individual and very real. That means his location his pinpointed in him albeit he may have migrated during his lifetime.
His ancestors, the Z11 MRCA, the Z40481 MRCA and the P312 MRCA didn't live each but a handful (or less) generations between each other. This means brothers and cousins like U152 are part of the puzzle.
This has to push P312 east, no more west than Central Europe, and due east of the Alps and also the north and east sides of the Carpathians have to be considered

I think they (P312) took exit 7A southbound to Veneto, Italy.

curiousII
10-01-2016, 04:41 AM
Ok, finally got an answer. "Where did DF27originate?" Not so hard after all. Here:

11931

Right in the UK is what it seems. What does DF27 look like? Here:
11932

razyn
10-01-2016, 03:15 PM
I trust that you realize this ancestry painting (or whatever it's called this week, at this company) is autosomal, infinitely admixed, and includes input from hundreds of your ancestors who were no kin to one another. So maybe about .001 of it would correspond with your DF27 paternal line (or maybe not any), back to about 300 years ago. And that is neither when, nor where, DF27 originated.

curiousII
10-01-2016, 05:56 PM
I trust that you realize this ancestry painting (or whatever it's called this week, at this company) is autosomal, infinitely admixed, and includes input from hundreds of your ancestors who were no kin to one another. So maybe about .001 of it would correspond with your DF27 paternal line (or maybe not any), back to about 300 years ago. And that is neither when, nor where, DF27 originated.
No! For real?

razyn
10-01-2016, 06:54 PM
Yes, for real. I can't tell if you are kidding/sarcastic (and know this stuff as well as I do), or just under-informed. But I do know those maps statistically don't have anything to do with the uniparental, male strand (your personal Y-DNA lineage) back to the founder of DF27 roughly 5,000 years ago.

My brother and I have the same parents, in fact the same ancestry altogether, back to genetic Adam and Eve. But apart from all European ancestry, our autosomal maps (Family Finder, My Origins) really don't look a thing alike. Some of the larger percentages are vaguely similar. But the random sampling of "ancestry informative markers" that each of us independently inherited from our mom and dad gave us quite differently colorized maps of Europe. And that DNA scrambling (on every chromosome but the X/Y) happens to everybody, except identical twins, in every birth event -- not just every generation.

razyn
10-01-2016, 07:28 PM
These are the "My Origins" maps of the full brothers referenced in my previous post; I wasn't allowed to edit it with images. I am the brother with Finland and Southern Europe highlighted. My brother looks about twice as Scandinavian as I. But our ancestry is, in fact, identical (including our subclade of DF27, not shown on the map).

11946
11947

MitchellSince1893
10-01-2016, 07:35 PM
To support what razyn is saying


You have only a 9% chance of sharing genetic material with your 13th generation ancestor. Even if you are connected to a person who came over on the Mayflower in 1620 (about 13 generations ago), chances are that you did not inherit any of this person’s DNA. If we could do a genetic test, you and your Mayflower relative would look like two unrelated people https://medium.com/@dl1dl1/face-it-dna-cannot-find-all-your-relatives-f68089b8e1e9#.ycnszpp1u

Looking at the chart from this study, there's a 40% chance you inherited no autosomal segments from your paternal line going back 9 generations.
https://gcbias.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/distribution_num_blocks_egs.png


...nine generations ago the autosomes you receive from (say) your mum are broke, on average, into 286 large chunks, and these are spread across your 256 ancestors. Thus on average each of ancestors has contributed only a single block to you, and by chance it is possibly that they contribute zero. This gets worse the further we go back in time, your genome is broken up into more and more chunks, but this does not grow as fast as your number of ancestors. This makes it increasingly likely that you inherit no autosomal material from a particular ancestor.



Put another way, there is less than a 10% chance you have inherited an autosomal DNA segment from your paternal line going back 13 generations.

As seen in chart once you get past say 15 generations the odds of inheriting an autosomal segment from a particular ancestor e.g. your paternal line is close to 0%. Thus the odds of having an autosomal segment from the original R-DF27, ~170 generations ago is essentially 0%.
https://gcbias.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/prob_zero_blocks_chr.png

My father has y-dna matches to 2 men where Yfull estimates are most recent common paternal line ancestor lived around 1000 AD (over 30 generations). Not surprisingly, my father doesn't match either one of them on FTDNA family finder or gedmatch.com (both are autosomal tools).

Celt_??
10-01-2016, 11:06 PM
...My brother and I have the same parents, in fact the same ancestry altogether, back to genetic Adam and Eve. But apart from all European ancestry, our autosomal maps (Family Finder, My Origins) really don't look a thing alike. Some of the larger percentages are vaguely similar. But the random sampling of "ancestry informative markers" that each of us independently inherited from our mom and dad gave us quite differently colorized maps of Europe. And that DNA scrambling (on every chromosome but the X/Y) happens to everybody, except identical twins, in every birth event -- not just every generation.

Thank you. That is the best example and clearest explanation I have read!

curiousII
10-02-2016, 07:28 PM
These are the "My Origins" maps of the full brothers referenced in my previous post; I wasn't allowed to edit it with images. I am the brother with Finland and Southern Europe highlighted. My brother looks about twice as Scandinavian as I. But our ancestry is, in fact, identical (including our subclade of DF27, not shown on the map).

11946
11947

Any way to fix those links? I, for one, can't get to them.

No, I know these autosomal tests are useless. They're cheap and fun, they give the customer a pretty map and names of countries, peoples, and places they've never heard of before. They're good for piquing the customer's interest to a point where he'll have his haplogroups done, then on to other places and things.

But I'd really like to see your maps. See how my Iberia and lower Italian boot are colorless? As well as North Africa, all three which I'd assumed I'd have had major hits. For the UK to have so much color while the rest of the globe is reatively bland is out of the norm, isn't it? Is that what your family's maps look like?

No color in South America, either. Another heavy hitter for DF27, from what we read.

So, anyway, I was being facetious in my last post. We've discussed autosomal here a couple of months ago and I'd never have gotten one if FTDNA didn't have such a screaming summer sale on it recently. But, if y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups make up such a small percentage of our chromosome so as to make their genetic influence basically meaningless, and if autosomal DNA is a revolving door that changes every couple hundred years, which part of our DNA gives us our ethnic identity? Read the post here over the past couple months, you'll see all the arguments are in disfavor of assigning that key role to any of the named genetic regions. So, my question is still there: What was that all about?

But that sure is a pretty map, isn't it? All that blue in the Islands, all the cool fadey-type shading across Europe, that touch of color in the Caucasus, then stark black-and-white everywhere else. Really, I've learned how offended the English can get (Dennis Publishing is terrible!), I don't mean this in any mean way, but do the British even have maps that come back like this?

razyn
10-02-2016, 08:57 PM
...........

razyn
10-02-2016, 09:01 PM
Any way to fix those links? I, for one, can't get to them.

The links aren't broken, but they may not work on certain platforms (like iPhones), or with certain browsers, or if you need to have the Editor in WYSIWYG mode, or something else. It's technology, so a lot of things can go wrong.

Also, the My Origins maps are not "useless;" just kind of a broad brush picture, and not a picture of your Y chromosome -- which was my point. This thread is about the origin of DF27, an ancient mutation on the Y chromosome; and maps based on a modern individual's autosomal Ancestry Informative Markers, by definition on chromosomes other than the Y, don't tell us anything about it. (AIMs are a Thing, somewhat like STRs and SNPs, and even less trustworthy.) So all of this is off-topic, I just felt a need to explain why.

On this thread, I'd really rather talk about ancient samples of DF27 guys who died in what is now Germany several thousand years ago. That's more on-topic, for this discussion -- and is new.

ArmandoR1b
10-02-2016, 09:51 PM
Any way to fix those links? I, for one, can't get to them.

No, I know these autosomal tests are useless. They're cheap and fun, they give the customer a pretty map and names of countries, peoples, and places they've never heard of before. They're good for piquing the customer's interest to a point where he'll have his haplogroups done, then on to other places and things.

But I'd really like to see your maps. See how my Iberia and lower Italian boot are colorless? As well as North Africa, all three which I'd assumed I'd have had major hits. For the UK to have so much color while the rest of the globe is reatively bland is out of the norm, isn't it? Is that what your family's maps look like?

No color in South America, either. Another heavy hitter for DF27, from what we read.

So, anyway, I was being facetious in my last post. We've discussed autosomal here a couple of months ago and I'd never have gotten one if FTDNA didn't have such a screaming summer sale on it recently. But, if y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups make up such a small percentage of our chromosome so as to make their genetic influence basically meaningless, and if autosomal DNA is a revolving door that changes every couple hundred years, which part of our DNA gives us our ethnic identity? Read the post here over the past couple months, you'll see all the arguments are in disfavor of assigning that key role to any of the named genetic regions. So, my question is still there: What was that all about?

But that sure is a pretty map, isn't it? All that blue in the Islands, all the cool fadey-type shading across Europe, that touch of color in the Caucasus, then stark black-and-white everywhere else. Really, I've learned how offended the English can get (Dennis Publishing is terrible!), I don't mean this in any mean way, but do the British even have maps that come back like this?

Autosomal DNA tests aren't useless although FTDNA myOrigins overreports some ancestry such as Southern Europe being way too high in some people that have all of their documented ancestry from the British Isles. Your autosomal results are different from most people from the British Isles so you also have ancestry from other regions which you have admitted through a statement in your post. If you would have had a grandparent that was born and raised in Iberia with all of the documented ancestry also from Iberia then you would have had southern Iberia as one of your components. There is no reason for you to have southern Europe or North Africa as a region. Only people with Native American ancestry get North and Central America as a region. South America never gets colored in even for people with Native American ancestry from South America. So you don't have a detectable amount of Native American DNA. DF27 doesn't come from Native Americans. DF27 in Latin America is mostly from Iberians which so far looks like they got it from the Bronze Age steppe people.

Anyway, your autosomal DNA has absolutely no bearing on where DF27 originated and how it expanded nor does the autosomal DNA of anyone in the past 3,800 years. The autosomal DNA of the Bell Beakers that have tested positive for DF27 related SNPs is important. The lack of DF27 in ancient specimens from Iberia but the fact that it has been found in a Bronze Age specimen in Germany is important.

Who has argued against which genetic regions being the source of DF27? How much of that arguing has gone on since Richard Rocca found out that DF27 was found in the Bronze Age specimen from Germany?

curiousII
10-02-2016, 09:53 PM
The links aren't broken, but they may not work on certain platforms (like iPhones), or with certain browsers, or if you need to have the Editor in WYSIWYG mode, or something else. It's technology, so a lot of things can go wrong.
Right, I have Linux. My bad.


Also, the My Origins maps are not "useless;" just kind of a broad brush picture, and not a picture of your Y chromosome -- which was my point.

Right, you're right.

So all of this is off-topic, I just felt a need to explain why.

On this thread, I'd really rather talk about ancient samples of DF27 guys who died in what is now Germany several thousand years ago. That's more on-topic, for this discussion -- and is new.

And I agree with you again, I remember what happened when I tried to go on the Celtic forum. I present my questions poorly worded, I feel the wrath.

ArmandoR1b
10-02-2016, 09:59 PM
The links aren't broken, but they may not work on certain platforms (like iPhones), or with certain browsers, or if you need to have the Editor in WYSIWYG mode, or something else. It's technology, so a lot of things can go wrong.
I have a PC with Windows 10 and I almost never have problems with seeing linked images here but I can't see yours either so it isn't a problem with his PC.

razyn
10-02-2016, 11:06 PM
Here is another attempt. Now it's a screen shot of a screen shot, so who knows what the resolution may be, but both maps are in one view this time:

11975

curiousII
10-03-2016, 07:04 AM
...who knows what the resolution may be, but both maps are in one view this time.

Resolution's fine, and both are great maps. Odd how one has hits for Finland and Southern Europe whilst the other is completely blank in those areas. And, neither has the "dreaded Middle East" hit that Europeans are so worried about getting mixed in with their results. Not my terminology, rather from an old article: https://dna-explained.com/2012/07/24/the-dreaded-middle-east-autosomal-result/

Anyway, thank you for letting us view your family's maps. We read that it's rare now to see one that's 100% European; you have two there.

Ric
10-03-2016, 12:30 PM
'Western and Central Europe' as an Ancestry indeed exists at FTDNA and you've got plenty if it, razyn. Ironically It's my main component at 23&me (well, it's called French/German) at over 30% but it completely disappeared in FTDNA My Origins (0%) for me. Given that my ancestry has been French for 5 generations, I would trust 23&me over FTDNA here.

ArmandoR1b
10-03-2016, 01:12 PM
Resolution's fine, and both are great maps. Odd how one has hits for Finland and Southern Europe whilst the other is completely blank in those areas. And, neither has the "dreaded Middle East" hit that Europeans are so worried about getting mixed in with their results. Not my terminology, rather from an old article: https://dna-explained.com/2012/07/24/the-dreaded-middle-east-autosomal-result/

That article from 2012 with the Middle East result was about Population Finder which is no longer used by FTDNA. In May 2014 FTDNA released myOrigins https://dna-explained.com/2014/05/11/family-tree-dna-releases-myorigins/

The cluster names changed July 2014 but the myOrigins results did not - https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/ftdna/introducing-new-population-cluster-names-myorigins/


Anyway, thank you for letting us view your family's maps. We read that it's rare now to see one that's 100% European; you have two there.
It really not that rare to get 100% European even with the poor ethnicity results of myOrigins. Because myOrigins is so bad FTDNA has been planning on upgrading it since before November 2015 and they had stated they would have it upgraded by the 1st quarter of 2016. Now they are telling people that it will be upgraded in the next several months. Whenever they finally get around to doing the upgrade don't be surprised if your results change.

If you want a better ethnicity calculator then 23andme is what you should get. They have released an Ancestry only kit for $99 https://www.23andme.com/dna-ancestry/

You could also upload your FTDNA file to Gedmatch for free and look at your Oracle-4 4 population results.

curiousII
10-03-2016, 03:35 PM
It really not that rare to get 100% European even with the poor ethnicity results of myOrigins. Because myOrigins is so bad FTDNA has been planning on upgrading it since before November 2015 and they had stated they would have it upgraded by the 1st quarter of 2016. Now they are telling people that it will be upgraded in the next several months. Whenever they finally get around to doing the upgrade don't be surprised if your results change.

If you want a better ethnicity calculator then 23andme is what you should get. They have released an Ancestry only kit for $99 https://www.23andme.com/dna-ancestry/

You could also upload your FTDNA file to Gedmatch for free and look at your Oracle-4 4 population results.

I was planning on trying 23andme next. I'm on GEDMatch, my kit's T441056 if you're on there and ever want to compare anything. This is my Eurogenes K13-Oracle 4 Ancestors results; is that the one you meant?

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 44.07
2 Baltic 27.56
3 West_Med 13.68
4 East_Med 8.03
5 West_Asian 3.06
6 South_Asian 1.40

Thanks, Armando. I don't want to stray too far off topic, but that's good guidance.

razyn
10-04-2016, 12:14 AM
If I may just for a moment digress from these autosomal digressions, and return to the stated topic of this thread: about four days ago Maciamo Hay updated his heat map of DF27. I still have philosophical issues with heat maps from sampling today's population, but as long as we realize that that's what we are looking at, I don't think they are useless. And I appreciate his having made the effort, it looks better to me than it has in the past three years.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28933-New-map-of-R1b-DF27-(SRY2627-M153)/page2?p=490973&viewfull=1#post490973

Just bear in mind that almost every other category of evidence except percentage in the present male population leads me to believe that the ancient population movement reflected in this map was a movement from east to west (and once in western Europe, from north to south). I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise -- but not to start with the opposite assumption, and then interpret the "heat" (darkest areas on the modern map) as the wellspring or place of origin. For DF27, or any other haplogroup.

rafc
10-04-2016, 10:33 AM
I agree, it seems to me these darkest areas tend to correspond to isolated, not easily accessible regions where founder effects and genetic drift caused large percentages from certain haplogroups to become very dominant, and that there's mostly no connection to a region of origin.

Ric
10-04-2016, 12:27 PM
If I may just for a moment digress from these autosomal digressions, and return to the stated topic of this thread: about four days ago Maciamo Hay updated his heat map of DF27.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28933-New-map-of-R1b-DF27-(SRY2627-M153)/page2?p=490973&viewfull=1#post490973

There are some improvements with the addition of Greece, Denmark and more Eastward generally, but I still don't see the 'other' hot spot in Northern France/Belgium/Netherlands that appears in another map. Anyways, because the Basque country is so heavy, any linear scaled map will have the effect to minimize visually the presence of df27 in other places anyways, so instead of a heat map of DF27 population density, why don't we have a heat map made of DF27 subclades, rather than people. That's what Alex Williamson's tree shows already, with the little flags under each subclade, but it would be nice to have it put geographically. That would simply be the number of (known) df27 subclades per country. Perhaps the unknown subclades could be approximately inferred by the experts here.

I realize that a density map of subclades would be biased towards younger subclades and therefore testing depth, since there are more younger subclades than old ones, but those who have those data could clip the subclade counting at one arbitrary level, like z209. So, how many subclades as deep as z209 do we have under DF27 in general and how do they spread geographically ?

R.Rocca
10-04-2016, 08:49 PM
No academic data to back it up, but I think DF27 may challenge U152 frequency in parts of NW Italy. This is based on published P312(xL21,U152) and FTDNA Projects.

ArmandoR1b
10-04-2016, 09:05 PM
The Valverde and Lucotte papers have been discussed at length when they came out in 2015 at http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4723-Dissection-of-the-Y-SNP-S116-in-Atlantic-Europe-and-Iberia-Valverde-et-al-2015 and http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3839-The-Major-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-R1b-M269-in-West-Europe-Lucotte-et-al-2015

There's not much to learn with the new Eupedia map because we already knew the highest frequency was in Basque Country, Spain and France with a decrease in frequency the farther way one goes (which is also apparent in the YFull results I've posted before) but it was a very long due update since the papers are more than 15 months old.

Additionally, as I have posted before, I am very much aware that where it pooled doesn't necessarily indicate the source especially with the Bell Beaker specimen from Quedlinburg, Germany being positive for DF27.

We really need a lot of high quality ancient DNA samples that turn out to be positive for DF27 and not so much overdue frequency maps that just cause discussion about inaccuracy of a map when it comes to modern distribution.

Camulogène Rix
10-05-2016, 07:31 PM
No academic data to back it up, but I think DF27 may challenge U152 frequency in parts of NW Italy. This is based on published P312(xL21,U152) and FTDNA Projects.
Happy to learn this good news. I can personally trace my patrilinear ancestors back to Lombardy (Varese) and I am puzzled to note that no color appears on the DF 27 Eupedia maps at this place. Why the Alps would be such an insurmountable border for this haplogroup and not the Pyrenees?

ArmandoR1b
10-05-2016, 08:13 PM
Happy to learn this good news. I can personally trace my patrilinear ancestors back to Lombardy (Varese) and I am puzzled to note that no color appears on the DF 27 Eupedia maps at this place. Why the Alps would be such an insurmountable border for this haplogroup and not the Pyrenees?

Lugus posted (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7246-DF27-is-not-primarily-an-quot-Iberian-quot-subclade&p=158879&viewfull=1#post158879)this map from the Valverde study which includes part of Italy in the colored area. Lombardy would be in that area. I'm not sure which study she based that on though.

12017

Ric
10-06-2016, 12:55 AM
Lugus posted (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7246-DF27-is-not-primarily-an-quot-Iberian-quot-subclade&p=158879&viewfull=1#post158879)this map from the Valverde study which includes part of Italy in the colored area. Lombardy would be in that area. I'm not sure which study she based that on though.

12017
there is a hot spot in Norway too.

razyn
10-06-2016, 02:49 AM
Lugus posted (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7246-DF27-is-not-primarily-an-quot-Iberian-quot-subclade&p=158879&viewfull=1#post158879)this map from the Valverde study which includes part of Italy in the colored area. Lombardy would be in that area. I'm not sure which study she based that on though.

As stated in the Lugus post you linked,
The map represents P312xU152xL21. So the Scandinavian hotspot could well be L238 -- not that there are no DF27 people in that area, but they don't have to be a percentage of the population sufficient to generate some heat on such a map. Other possibilities include the rest of Z4081 (ZZ37, DF99); DF19; and some small clades or oddities not yet placed in any big group by Alex on his Big Tree. Basically, that's just not a very robust proxy for DF27. We're in it, but so are many other P312 guys (formerly known as P312*).

R.Rocca
10-06-2016, 10:40 AM
As stated in the Lugus post you linked, So the Scandinavian hotspot could well be L238 -- not that there are no DF27 people in that area, but they don't have to be a percentage of the population sufficient to generate some heat on such a map. Other possibilities include the rest of Z4081 (ZZ37, DF99); DF19; and some small clades or oddities not yet placed in any big group by Alex on his Big Tree. Basically, that's just not a very robust proxy for DF27. We're in it, but so are many other P312 guys (formerly known as P312*).

21.6% of Savona/Genova in NW Italy is R1b1b2a1b-P312 (xM65,M153,SRY2627,U152,L21) as per Boattini 2013. This is the area of Italy that shows DF27 samples on par (or surpassing U152) as per FTDNA testers. So, even though 100% of the samples will not be DF27, I would bet that 95%+ will be.

razyn
10-06-2016, 11:59 AM
So, even though 100% of the samples will not be DF27, I would bet that 95%+ will be.
I agree completely; we (surely?) outnumber those other guys in (most of?) the territory indicated as P312+ (xU152, xL21). But "I would bet" is lousy science. Also, heat maps based on sampling of the living tell us little -- often nothing -- about ancient origins (see thread topic), or the when and how of their expansion. They can report the where of expansion pretty well.

R.Rocca
10-06-2016, 12:32 PM
I agree completely; we (surely?) outnumber those other guys in (most of?) the territory indicated as P312+ (xU152, xL21). But "I would bet" is lousy science. Also, heat maps based on sampling of the living tell us little -- often nothing -- about ancient origins (see thread topic), or the when and how of their expansion. They can report the where of expansion pretty well.

"I would bet" isn't science at all, nor was it intended to be. Either way, it will be interesting to see what happened to frequencies of P312 in places like Germany post Bell Beaker.

ArmandoR1b
10-06-2016, 12:37 PM
I agree completely; we (surely?) outnumber those other guys in (most of?) the territory indicated as P312+ (xU152, xL21). But "I would bet" is lousy science.
It's a well educated estimate.


Also, heat maps based on sampling of the living tell us little -- often nothing -- about ancient origins (see thread topic), or the when and how of their expansion. They can report the where of expansion pretty well.
Correct, but I had posted the map due to the post by Camulogène Rix about the heat map from Eupedia not including DF27 in NW Italy.

Kvenlander
10-10-2016, 09:16 PM
I agree, it seems to me these darkest areas tend to correspond to isolated, not easily accessible regions where founder effects and genetic drift caused large percentages from certain haplogroups to become very dominant, and that there's mostly no connection to a region of origin.

This is correct, I can offer a good example of a region where I am from - Eastern Finland. Northern Savonia where I was born has over 80% of N1C1, most of that Savo-Karelian branch. This is THE highest density of N1C1, I believe. Still, no one is suggesting that N1c1 or even its Savo-Karelian branch was born here, the area was slowly settled during and after the Viking Age from the South-East by few families always setting up a homestead beyond family lands. Some of these families became hugely successful in their own right, such as Korhonens (the most common surname in Finland), who mostly belong to the same subclade of N1c1, meaning that they are all descendant of a same man who lived during the 13th century.

Myself, being a member of a Northern DF27 branch, find this new aDNA very interesting. My initial hypothesis after discovering being DF27, and disapproving recent migration (merceneries, traders being the usual suspects), was that the onset of the so called Nordic Bronze Age brought this subclade to Finland. As I share a subclade FGC17112 with a Welsh/English group and seeing Iberia as the hotspot, I though that this particular branch had migrated from the Celtic heartland due to trade etc. However, learning of this new fellow, even though much earlier than FGC17112, I had to rethink my theory. Knowing that FGC17112 has been found in Finland, (probably Sweden - my STR match), Denmark, Switzerland and England/Wales, that this subclade also was formed further east and migrated to the Isles though the Celtic iron age. I still think that the subclade could have been introduced by the Northern Bronze Age or early Iron Age. In any case the route seems to have taken through Sweden to North Finland, as there are no hits in Southern Finland. This would have happened 2000-2500 years ago from what is now Germany.

The subclade is very rare in Finland, even though there are many families who share this particular mutation. For some reason the cousins who migrated south became hugely successful just like those N1C1 men in Eastern Finland. Maybe though founder effect?

Are we already able to tie the different branches to see which are the oldest? Mind you, I am NOT promoting Finland as the birthplace of DF27 but it is noteworthy that most Finnish DF27 individuals I know are from different subclades from each other, so the variance here in the north is very high. Considering the direction of contacts from Finland at that time, the Southern shore of the Baltic Sea is where I would put my money.

razyn
10-16-2016, 10:09 AM
I'll contextualize this new post by shamelessly quoting myself, from about a month ago.



One pertinent fact that gets skipped over by people who haven't heard about it (and that includes most people) is that DF27 is no longer immediately below P312 -- if one places any credence in the additional branching points, caused by SNPs that for one reason or another don't get onto everybody's version of the Y haplotree.* In this version from http://www.ytree.net/ the sequence is R1b-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > DF27/S250. That matters, because every time there is a branching point, there is the possibility that the branches (at first individual men, but eventually their whole lineage) will go their separate ways. Some branches will flourish, some will die out. In this case the DF27 branch (three levels below P312) has flourished quite prominently in the parts of Europe that are shaded most heavily (representing high percentage in the present, tested male population) on haplogroup "heat maps" of the Eupedia type. These maps are not drawn with the aim of deceiving, but what they show has taken a long time (in the case of DF27, roughly 4,500 years) to develop; they are not maps of haplogroup origin. Anyway, have a look at Alex Williamson's version of the R1b-P312 tree. Hint: we DF27 people, and our brother clade U152, are somewhere in the lower left of this partial screen shot (click to enlarge):
11622
Returning to the significance of this week's discovery that ancient DNA sample I0806 is ZZ11+ and DF27+, I posted about that yesterday morning on the "Celtic from the West" thread here. I keep cross-referencing these threads in the hope that they will be seen by a variety of people whose particular interest may be from a different perspective (archaeology, linguistics, or other fields besides genetic genealogy, that may be informed by one another's news).
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5756-Celtic-from-the-West&p=186429&viewfull=1#post186429

*ZZ11 has had a good bit of discussion by now, perhaps more of it on U152 than on DF27 threads. The less familiar level marked by Z40481 has had little discussion or impact so far, most of it here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7150-Z40481-Splits-R-P312&p=156214&viewfull=1#post156214

As I had said just a little earlier (post #392 on this thread):
I do think it [the origin, timing and means by which DF27 spread within western Europe] should be coupled with U152 (because of their shared parent ZZ11); and the minuscule sample of that shows about the same thing. It's not much, in either case, but it's the same little hint about them both.

Rich Rocca has very recently mastered a new technique by which the Gedmatch database can be persuaded to accept data uploaded from the partial BAM file of an aDNA sample that is too degraded to yield the depth of coverage normally required for such an upload. Having succeeded with the oldest undisputed U152 sample (RISE563), he analyzed its autosomal components with the Eurogenes K-13 and the Eurasia K-10 admixture programs available on the Gedmatch site. Then yesterday he uploaded, analyzed and posted our earliest DF27 sample (I0806), using the same admixture programs. Side by side, these ancient (Bell Beaker) "brother" samples below ZZ11 really do look a lot like brothers. And the numerous close similarities in their autosomal data (what ancestral components they both have, in high percentages; and also what ancestry they lack, or only have in tiny percentages) make a convincing case that this part of the early Bronze Age, migrating male population was coming into central Europe from farther east.

A separate thread for the more generalized discussion of admixture analysis of our ancient samples on Gedmatch (only by inference a DF27 origin issue) is found here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8860-DF27-Bell-Beaker-Sample-Autosomal-Components

Additional useful information on this subject is likely to be found on the Ancient DNA forum here; on U152 forum threads; and perhaps in places I can't currently predict, as more aDNA samples are published and analyzed in the coming months.

Heber
10-27-2016, 07:36 PM
A BRONZE AGE LINEAGE DOMINATES THE Y-CHROMOSOME LANDSCAPE IN THE IBERIAN PENINSULA


CALAFELL F1, P. Villaescusa2, N. Solé-Morata1, A. Carracedo3, K. Rouault4, C. Férec4, O. Hardiman5, A. Santurtun6, S. Jiménez7, M. F. Pinheiro8, B. M. Jarreta9, M. M. De Pancorbo2
1 Institute of Evolutionary Biology (CSIC-Universitat Pompeu Fabra), CEXS-UPF-PRBB, Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain
2 BIOMICs Research Group, Lascaray Research Center, University of Basque Country UPV/EHU, Vitoria-Gasteiz, Spain
3 Forensic Genetics Unit, Institute of Legal Medicine, University of Santiago de Compostela, Spain; Galician Foundation of Genomic Medicine (SERGAS), CIBERER (University of Santiago de Compostela), Santiago de Compostela, Spain.
4 Inserm UMR1078, Génétique, Génomique fonctionnelle et Biotechnologies, Brest 15 Cedex 2, France.
5 National Neuroscience Centre, Beaumont Hospital, Dublin, Ireland.
6 Unit of Legal Medicine, Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, University of Cantabria, Santander, Spain
7 Institute of Legal Medicine of Alicante, Spain.
8 National Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences, Portugal.
9 Laboratory of Genetics and Genetic Identification, University of Zaragoza, Spain.


The genetic landscape of the Iberian Peninsula is dominated (as in the rest of Western Europe) by haplogroup R1b, which comprises two thirds of the Y chromosomes; the rest is divided roughly equally between E-M35, G, I, and J. Within R1b, R1b-S116 (also known as P312 dominates, with ~60% in Spain;it further trifurcates into three major branches having distinct geographical distributions: M529 (L21 radiating from the British Isles, U152 in France, Switzerland and N. Italy, and DF27 in the Iberian Peninsula. DF27 is poorly known, and we have sought to characterize its distribution and diversity, with the aim of reconstructing its history. We have typed DF27 and six of its derived SNPs, as well as 16 Y-STRs in 2,993 males from 32 populations located in Spain, Portugal, France and Ireland; SNP allele frequencies were also gathered from the reference populations in the 1000 Genomes Project. We confirmed that DF27 is the most frequent haplogroup in Iberia, with an average frequency ~45%, while it dropped to <15% right across the Pyrenees. Within Iberia, it ranged from 40% in most populations to ~75% in Basques. Elsewhere, it showed high frequencies in Colombia and Puerto Rico, which implies it can be used to trace Iberian male migrations into the Americas.
However, our most striking result is how young DF27 is. We estimated from STR variation that DF27 originated 4,000±150 years ago (ya); it took it just 120 generations to grow to ~12 million carriers in Iberia and ~75 million in Central and South America (assuming just 1/3 paternal Iberian ancestry). This places the origin of DF27 in the early Bronze Age, and at least 2,000 years after the arrival of the Neolithic, which was supposed to be the last major event that shaped the European genetic landscape. The DF27 expansion may be part of a global trend, in which bursts of male lineages have been observed at different periods, and in different geographical regions (Poznik et al. 2016.

http://ecoanthropologie.mnhn.fr/DPHP2016/abstract%20book%20dphp2016.pdf

DNA polymorphisms in human populations
Musée de l’Homme, Paris, 7-10 December 2016

Ric
10-27-2016, 08:34 PM
A BRONZE AGE LINEAGE DOMINATES THE Y-CHROMOSOME LANDSCAPE IN THE IBERIAN PENINSULA
http://ecoanthropologie.mnhn.fr/DPHP2016/abstract%20book%20dphp2016.pdf

DNA polymorphisms in human populations
Musée de l’Homme, Paris, 7-10 December 2016

Is CTS4065 part of the subclades of df27 that have been tested ?
They mentioned ' six derived SNP', do you know what they are ?

Heber
10-27-2016, 08:45 PM
Is CTS4065 part of the subclades of df27 that have been tested ?
They mentioned ' six derived SNP', do you know what they are ?

This is a poster so no further details.

ArmandoR1b
10-27-2016, 09:40 PM
Is CTS4065 part of the subclades of df27 that have been tested ?
They mentioned ' six derived SNP', do you know what they are ?


This is a poster so no further details.

Villescusa is a co-author and she was the author of the study of DF27 in the Basque populations at http://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(15)30174-8/fulltext and CTS4065 is not included in that study so I doubt that CTS4065 will be one of the 6 SNPs included in that talk.

A 2nd clue that CTS4065 won't be included in the talk is that if you go to http://ecoanthropologie.mnhn.fr/DPHP2016/DPHP2016_plenary.htm you can see the poster without having to download the PDF and it mentions Poznik et al. 2016. Punctuated bursts in human male demography inferred from 1,244 worldwide Y-chromosome sequences. Nat Genet. 486:593-9 which only uses 1000 Genomes data. If you go to http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=634 there is only one entry of a 1K Genomes kit that is positive for CTS4065. That Poznik study is at http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v48/n6/full/ng.3559.html If you download the supplementary PDF (http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v48/n6/full/ng.3559.html#supplementary-information) you can see on page 20 NA20518 which is the single CTS4065 1K Genomes sample and it doesn't even have a notation that it is CTS4065. It just shows it as R1b-S230 which is synonymous with Z209 and phylogenetically equivalent with S450 (http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=629&star=false).

Ric
10-28-2016, 12:05 AM
I see. CTS4065 is old (3900bp I recall) , so I would assume it would be in the Iberian population, or should be, however when you look at Alex Big Tree, there are not much Iberian under CTS4065. So perhaps DF27 moved and expended in Iberia before CTS4065 appeared, or perhaps the df27 men who moved to Iberia were so few that CTS4065, who was however there already somewhere in Central Europe, was excluded of that migration by random sampling. It would be interesting to know the initial number of R1b who populated Iberia and the number of waves etc.

ArmandoR1b
10-28-2016, 02:57 AM
I see. CTS4065 is old (3900bp I recall) , so I would assume it would be in the Iberian population, or should be, however when you look at Alex Big Tree, there are not much Iberian under CTS4065. So perhaps DF27 moved and expended in Iberia before CTS4065 appeared, or perhaps the df27 men who moved to Iberia were so few that CTS4065, who was however there already somewhere in Central Europe, was excluded of that migration by random sampling. It would be interesting to know the initial number of R1b who populated Iberia and the number of waves etc.
It is partly due to a sampling problem but if Iberia and Latin America had the same participation rate as the British Isles then there would still only be about 5 flags from Latin American and if France had the same participation rate as the British Isles it would have about 16 and not just 4 flags. So yes, there was a smaller amount of CTS4065 that went into Iberia compared to how much it went into regions such as France.

Webb
10-28-2016, 11:21 AM
It is partly due to a sampling problem but if Iberia and Latin America had the same participation rate as the British Isles then there would still only be about 5 flags from Latin American and if France had the same participation rate as the British Isles it would have about 16 and not just 4 flags. So yes, there was a smaller amount of CTS4065 that went into Iberia compared to how much it went into regions such as France.

Your above comment is what I have been arguing for for the past several years. The North/South cluster is the perfect tool to pin down dates into Iberia. If we can agree on which snp/snp's seem to be predominantly Iberian and which ones appear to be not, then use Yfull's dates for these snp's, we might say with some confidence when this particular branch took off in Iberia. My eye always gets drawn to Z278/Z216 as starting to be a good 50/50 mix. By Z214 we see almost entirely Spanish samples.

ArmandoR1b
10-29-2016, 12:20 AM
It is partly due to a sampling problem but if Iberia and Latin America had the same participation rate as the British Isles then there would still only be about 5 flags from Latin American and if France had the same participation rate as the British Isles it would have about 16 and not just 4 flags. So yes, there was a smaller amount of CTS4065 that went into Iberia compared to how much it went into regions such as France.
I redid the numbers today I had made a mistake yesterday. There should be 12 flags from Iberia and Latin American and there should be about 21 from France if they had the same participation rate as the British Isles.


Your above comment is what I have been arguing for for the past several years.
But with too much emphasis on Z220 in Iberia in some of your previous comments.


The North/South cluster is the perfect tool to pin down dates into Iberia.
It's not the perfect tool. The North/South cluster is specifically for Z220 but DF27 Iberians are only 22% Z220 with 78% being in other subclades of DF27. The North/South cluster only catches a small amount of Iberian DF27.


If we can agree on which snp/snp's seem to be predominantly Iberian and which ones appear to be not, then use Yfull's dates for these snp's, we might say with some confidence when this particular branch took off in Iberia.
Iberians that are DF27 are 60% ZZ12 and 40% Z195 and exist in most subclades of each of those branches. DF27 either entered Iberia at a date when lots of different subclades existed or there was a lot of movement into Iberia, and maybe even out of Iberia, once DF27 got there. Those are two very possible hypotheses. Lots of very old ancient DNA from all over Europe, that includes plenty from Iberia, that is DF27+ can give us a clue about which subclades got where and when. The modern distribution shouldn't relied upon until all ancient specimens have been tested.


My eye always gets drawn to Z278/Z216 as starting to be a good 50/50 mix. By Z214 we see almost entirely Spanish samples.
Z214 being almost, but not quite, exclusively, Iberian could end up being very misleading especially if the YFull formed date of 3100 ybp is pretty close and if DF27 arrived with Bell Beaker prior to 2200 BC (4200 ybp) which is almost as far back as the estimated formation of Z295.

Something I want to add is that if modern NGS and WGS samples are going to be used the Iberian samples are going to take an extremely long time to get to be a significant amount. In the past two months there has only been one new DF27 Iberian in Alex W's BigTree.

Scotsman
11-01-2016, 03:48 AM
Mike being a member of the R1b DF27/S250 Group, together with my brother, it appears to us that unlike the R1a Group there is not a link for our Group with our SNP Z198 and L165 in the Norse areas. The main cluster of our #1 Group migratory path was first recognized originally in south central England prior to being primarily settled north in Barra. (Although SRY 2627 was also cluster 1 in the same area of England they are now found in Ireland and not the Scottish Hebrides) (In my opinion: I have a feeling that you will only find the Norse SRY 2627 are the Cluster 2 Group and probably do not have Z198)

Our SNPs are R1b: M343/P25,P297, M269, L23/L150,L51, L11/P310, P312/S116, DF27/S250, Z196,Z198,L165, BY132, (MacLeods separate BY456 from us at BY132),BY209,(MacDonalds separate from us MacNeils at BY209),Y5135, Y5108,BY3269, A10683, A11118:

Both myself, Angus and my brother Dan are part of the MacNeil Chiefly Line and a some other MacNeils in the Chiefly Line are also grouping at A11118.

Our objective is to try to determine where our Migratory Path was located? Any ideas Mike? Thanks for your great information in all you posts.

Angus

Jean M
11-01-2016, 12:52 PM
Mike being a member of the R1b DF27/S250 Group, together with my brother, it appears to us that unlike the R1a Group there is not a link for our Group with our SNP Z198 and L165 in the Norse areas.

Welcome to the forum Angus. I'm delighted to see that the chiefly McNeils now have their own SNP. I hope you don't mind if I answer before Mike.

According to A. Moffat and J. Wilson, The Scots: A genetic journey (2011), pp. 181-3, R1b-L165/S68 is found in Scandinavia and the Northern and Western Isles of Scotland, which suggests that this is a Norse marker which arrived in the Isles with Vikings. They note (as you did) that it is associated with Clan Macleod.

I fully realise that this book has its flaws. I spotted plenty when I read it. But in this case they are simply recording the modern distribution of the subclade, and it looks to me that they are absolutely right. The association with Clan Macleod pretty much ties the matter up. See http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/surnames.shtml#MacLeod

razyn
11-01-2016, 01:53 PM
(In my opinion: I have a feeling that you will only find the Norse SRY 2627 are the Cluster 2 Group and probably do not have Z198)
SRY2627, Norse or otherwise, is downstream of Z198. It's just not on the same downstream branch as L165.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=187&star=false

Scotsman
11-04-2016, 04:07 AM
Razyn

Replied to you last night but I must not sent using the proper send. Hope I do better with this reply. Yes I agree that L165 and SRY2627 are of a different branch after Z198. (SRY2627 is clade: DF27/S68, Z195, Z198, S312, Z262, M167, etc and our clade: DF27/S68, Z195, Z198, L165, BY132, BY209, Y5135, etc. As both SNPs were located in the same area in England makes me wonder if there was a relationship in our Migratory path to England particular since both were listed in a similar way with two Clusters (1 and 2) for each. My interest is primarily to locate our family Migratory path.

In the study we were involved in proved that our L165 did not head north to the Norse areas and also as always historically recorded had not migrated south from the Norse areas. (What was our Path?) The study also found that our relationship with the MacLeods and MacDonalds separated before our terminal SNP of A11118 and thus the reason the MacNeils were in the Lords of the Isles was not because of a Family relationship with these two families. Moffat/Wilson in the Wilson L165 discovery matters must have relied on historical notes and not followed up checking the accuracy of the statement by using a Phylogenetic SNP analysis.

Angus

Heber
01-06-2017, 04:33 AM
CHARACTERIZATION OF THE IBERIAN Y CHROMOSOME HAPLOGROUP R-DF27 IN NORTHERN SPAIN

Patricia Villaescusa, María José Illescas, Laura Valverde, Miriam Baeta, Carolina Nuñez, Begoña Martínez Jarreta, Maria Teresa Zarrabeitia, Francesc Calafell, Marian M. de PancorbocorrespondenceemailPress enter key to Email the author
Published Online: December 30, 2016
DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.fsigen.2016.12.013
Publication stage: In Press Accepted Manuscript
Article Infoclick to expand contents
Highlights

•A detailed dissection of R-DF27 paternal lineage is performed for the first time.
•DF27 haplogroup seems to have a geographical significance in the Iberian Peninsula.
•The TMRCAs suggest DF27 is a young lineage that arose 4,176 ± 696 years ago.
•DF27 could be used to trace Iberian male migrations into the Americas.
•DF27 could be used to trace the biogeographic paternal origin of a forensic evidence.
The European paternal lineage R-DF27 has been proposed as an haplogroup of Iberian origin due to its maximum frequencies in the Iberian Peninsula. In this study, the distribution and structure of DF27 were characterized in 591 unrelated male individuals from four key populations of the north area of the Iberian Peninsula through the analysis of 12 Y-SNPs that define DF27 main sublineages. Additionally, Y-SNP allele frequencies were also gathered from the reference populations in the 1000 Genomes Project to compare and obtain a better landscape of the distribution of DF27. Our results reveal frequencies over 35% of DF27 haplogroup in the four North Iberian populations analyzed and high frequencies for its subhaplogroups. Considering the low frequency of DF27 and its sublineages in most populations outside of the Iberian Peninsula, this haplogroup seems to have geographical significance; thus, indicating a possible Iberian patrilineal origin of vestiges bearing this haplogroup. The dataset presented here contributes with new data to better understand the complex genetic variability of the Y chromosome in the Iberian Peninsula, that can be applied in Forensic Genetics.

Keywords:

Y chromosome, R haplogroup, Iberia, DF27, Z195

TigerMW
01-06-2017, 02:25 PM
CHARACTERIZATION OF THE IBERIAN Y CHROMOSOME HAPLOGROUP R-DF27 IN NORTHERN SPAIN
...
Our results reveal frequencies over 35% of DF27 haplogroup in the four North Iberian populations analyzed and high frequencies for its subhaplogroups. Considering the low frequency of DF27 and its sublineages in most populations outside of the Iberian Peninsula, this haplogroup seems to have geographical significance; thus, indicating a possible Iberian patrilineal origin of vestiges bearing this haplogroup.
...

This is crazy. Did they even discuss diversity and early branching versus modern frequencies in determining origins? Did they even discuss the Wave of Advance theory from prior studies that show high frequency alleles oftentimes surf the wave in fast growing population. The study itself indicates a 4,100 year-old age for DF27 and given its current frequency this is fast growing.

Someone might want to tell them about ancestor ZZ11 and brother U152. U152 is certainly light in the Iberian Peninsula. There are like no SNPs in these phylogenetic blocks. Just one from ZZ11 to the U152 MRCA and just one from ZZ11 to the DF27 MRCA. These guys were literally cousins of some type.

razyn
01-07-2017, 11:19 PM
This is crazy.
Well, at least seriously under-informed. Like most other academics, this bunch is not keeping up with the refined phylogeny we see from BigY, FGC, YFull, the Big Tree, etc. Also they arrived on the scene with some a priori assumptions that aren't holding up very well, they just have yet to see the DF27 light. [Ex oriente, dare one say?]

Sorry I can't spend much time debating on the forums, since last Tuesday (and for about another week, if the parts arrive) my computer is in the shop. I can use my wife's, but she also has jobs to do online.

Arch
01-19-2017, 02:36 PM
Victims of Common Core Education I presume. :biggrin1:

curiousII
01-23-2017, 10:37 PM
Victims of Common Core Education I presume. :biggrin1:

Ha ha, right no doubt. "There's no A in 'trying,'" "OK, one time through!," and maybe the best "Spell, stupid!" are some of the protests from those who've started teaching via Common Core. Beleagured teachers, a new breed.

Read this post once and once only as "Looking back [re-reading] is weak!" So much for keeping your favorite novels or poems around.:focus:

And to get back on topic: Of course DF27 migrated to Iberia. Seems that's an accepted fact now, isn't it?

curiousII
04-06-2017, 02:23 AM
Here is another attempt. Now it's a screen shot of a screen shot, so who knows what the resolution may be, but both maps are in one view this time:

11975

You've probably posted your new FF myOrigins results elsewhere both on this site and FTDNA's but since you posted your brother's and your map here, I thought I'd ask how much your results have changed with FTDNA's new science.

My British has plummeted from 59% to 13%, the change commensurate with my Western and Central European peaking now at 56% which is up from 11%. This, coupled with my Scandinavia now at 20% from its previous 6%. My Finland and Northern Siberia hit of 9% is gone but has been replaced with a 4% Iberian match, a geographic region that was blank before. Still blank is the lower Italian boot, but my Eastern Europe match has decreased from 13% to 5%.

My overall European has remained at 98%, but now the truant non-European 2% is described as possible "statistical noise," which is a new phrase to FTDNA, isn't it? And that's not just my question, I've seen attention drawn to that on other site(s). With all the science that FTDNA uses, "statistical noise" is a vague phrase used by the lesser, inferior-type companies in the past. Isn't it? And my ancientOrigins has remained the same, but that result would've been affected by any changes to the myOrigins alterations. Seems it would've been, anyway.

There's an old post around here somewhere which I mentioned my surprise at the 59% UK hit I got, and another poster chimed in with his opinion that FTDNA's testing was dubious as, even with customers who'd had verified centuries-worth of English heritage, their results would come back with much lower percentages of UK-ness. Looking at my results that person said something like he'd bet "that wouldn't happen again." It sure didn't in my case, but I've seen posts where some customers have had their Foggy Island ancestry increased ten-fold or thereabouts.

Anyway, I remember you bringing attention to just how much your family maps differed from each other though you had the same heritage. Any changes now? Better or worse? Mine does show Iberia now, but still a fairly minimal match. But if DF27 has been traced to Quedlinburg, that'd support my now larger West/Central European hit.

Right?

razyn
04-06-2017, 04:50 AM
Right?
No. No matter how many reference populations they add to refine the "My origins" display, it still is a display of recently acquired markers on chromosomes other than the Y. It will have no bearing whatever on your 5000 year old DF27 (and some subclade) heritage. Whether that's from Quedlinburg, or Iberia, or the moon.

I might be less doctrinaire about this if the test was at 23andMe, or LivingDNA; or done on some chip that looked for YDNA evidence. FTDNA's Family Finder test (source for My Origins) does not look there.

The answer to your opening question is that my brother and I look even less alike, in the new My Origins display. I think it's a better picture, now; but the fact remains that each of us has inherited a different mix of the possible autosomal DNA available from each of our two parents. We match on YDNA [and on mtDNA, though he hasn't tested that -- but we are born of the same mother]. And My Origins data still have nothing to do with that.

Roy Paul
05-03-2017, 11:39 PM
The Gallic & Iberian branch (DF27/S250)

The first Proto-Celtic R1b lineages to reach France and the Iberian peninsula from Central Europe were probably L21 and DF27. Whereas L21 might have taken a northern route through Belgium and northern France on its way to the British Isles, DF27 seems to have spread all over France but heading in greater number toward the south.

The Bronze Age did not appear in Iberia until 1800 BCE, and was mostly confined to the cultures of El Argar and Los Millares in south-east Spain, with sporadic sites showing up in Castile by 1700 BCE and in Extremadura and southern Portugal by 1500 BCE. These Early Bronze Age sites typically did not have more than some bronze daggers or axes and cannot be considered proper Bronze Age societies, but rather Copper Age societies with occasional bronze artefacts (perhaps imported). These cultures might have been founded by small groups of R1b adventurers looking for easy conquests in parts of Europe that did not yet have bronze weapons. They would have become a small ruling elite, would have had children with local women, and within a few generations their Indo-European language would have been lost, absorbed by the indigenous languages (=> see How did the Basques become R1b?).

Iberia did not become a fully-fledged Bronze Age society until the 13th century BCE, when the Urnfield culture (1300-1200 BCE) expanded from Germany to Catalonia via southern France, then the ensuing Hallstatt culture (1200-750 BCE) spread throughout most of the peninsula (especially the western half). This period belongs to the wider Atlantic Bronze Age (1300-700 BCE), when Iberia was connected to the rest of Western Europe through a complex trade network.

It is hard to say when exactly DF27 entered Iberia. Considering its overwhelming presence in the peninsula and in south-west France, it is likely that DF27 arrived early, during the 1800 to 1300 BCE period, and perhaps even earlier, if R1b adventurers penetrated the Bell Beaker culture, as they appear to have done all over Western Europe from 2300 BCE to 1800 BCE. The Atlantic Bronze Age could correspond to the period when DF27 radiated more evenly around Iberia and ended up, following Atlantic trade routes, all the way to the British Isles, the Netherlands and Scandinavia.

TigerMW
05-04-2017, 01:00 AM
....
The first Proto-Celtic R1b lineages to reach France and the Iberian peninsula from Central Europe were probably L21 and DF27. Whereas L21 might have taken a northern route through Belgium and northern France on its way to the British Isles, DF27 seems to have spread all over France but heading in greater number toward the south.....

The frequency of L21 is not that high in the Iberian Peninsula. There are early branches there, but mostly along the Pyrenees.

The age of these branches of L21 are not way back to the inception or first branches of L21 but are a centuries later. Take a look at L21's R1b-DF73.
http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=180&star=false

I am speculating but it looks like a nice alignment of both time and place to the old Tin Trail.

razyn
05-14-2017, 08:57 AM
Several ancient DNA papers have appeared in preprint, online versions within the past week. One has been nicknamed the "Bell Beaker Behemoth;" it (and perhaps others) may include more aDNA samples that will prove to be DF27+. Because of the well-known reluctance of that SNP toward being spotted with a NextGen test, we won't know until the BAM files are released. Then such colleagues as Rich Rocca will be able to investigate more deeply the samples that currently have been called only as "P312." That tends to work like focusing a camera, or putting on corrective lenses for one's astigmatism.

When that happens, assuming we have more granularity in our knowledge of the early locations and settlement history of DF27 and its brother clade U152, I'll post about it here. And will refer to post #437 above, when I do so. Release of the BAM files will be immediate, once the print version of these papers is released -- possibly within the present month. Analysis will take a little longer, but not another 4500 years. The wait behind us is longer than the wait ahead of us.

Incidentally, the recent DNA Day sale pricing briefly lowered the cost of a BigY test, and as a result, we currently have 33 new tests pending, in FTDNA's DF27 haplogroup project. They are all in batches 743-4-5, nominally due in mid to late June. But that's a crude estimate (six weeks after batching, I believe) and they might come in sooner. Another thing to monitor closely is the short list of DF27** samples, at the far right on Alex's Big Tree. Currently that list has been whittled down to just six -- four known members of our DF27 project, and two anonymized samples from the 1000 Genomes project.

Most of the 33 pending BigY tests are going to match somebody who is already grouped; I always hope there will be a match with one of our (six) mystery samples. Then I have to create another subgroup for the new SNP(s) -- but the DF27** concept shrinks again. I'm a little less pleased on the rare occasions when another mystery guy appears (no match in the data, so he's added to the DF27** column); but those branches need to be identified, too. They might be from a lightly sampled population, poorly represented in western Europe and its colonies.

I don't expect anybody now living to be basal DF27, but currently about a quarter of 1% of DF27+ persons with NextGen results are failing to identify a terminal SNP -- other than the basic Z195/ZZ12 divide -- by matching someone else who has already been so tested.

edgeworthdb
05-17-2017, 08:43 PM
Thanks for the info Razyn!

I1382 of Mondelange looks promising. It's 50km from Schwarzenholz. Fingers crossed for a connection with B6432.

Rich, best of luck when the BAMs come out! Keep us posted!

Arch
06-12-2017, 09:26 AM
The frequency of L21 is not that high in the Iberian Peninsula. There are early branches there, but mostly along the Pyrenees.

The age of these branches of L21 are not way back to the inception or first branches of L21 but are a centuries later. Take a look at L21's R1b-DF73.
http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=180&star=false

I am speculating but it looks like a nice alignment of both time and place to the old Tin Trail.

I'm not seeing it "the tin trail" of L21 from Beleriand to Massilia. Too early? Empuries "the Market Port" but exactly what the Phocae and Punics were getting from this region is still hard to discern besides the obvious abundance of fish. Perhaps minerals from the Pyrenees, iron, copper, gold, etc. It would seem likely for a route north of the Piryenes to Port Venus rather than Empuries, still without L21. L21 makes no sense in this area. DF27 does. Trade from Empuries to Tartessos up to NW Spain maybe SW Prydein. All spekulation. Shaliday!

TigerMW
06-12-2017, 03:29 PM
I'm not seeing it "the tin trail" of L21 from Beleriand to Massilia. Too early? Empuries "the Market Port" but exactly what the Phocae and Punics were getting from this region is still hard to discern besides the obvious abundance of fish. Perhaps minerals from the Pyrenees, iron, copper, gold, etc. It would seem likely for a route north of the Piryenes to Port Venus rather than Empuries, still without L21. L21 makes no sense in this area. DF27 does. Trade from Empuries to Tartessos up to NW Spain maybe SW Prydein. All spekulation. Shaliday!

Arch, I was referring to what what Amazallag calls the "Tin Road". One part of this sweeps down from Bretagne, France to the northwestern side of the Pyrenees and then on to the southeast along the Pyrenees to the Mediterranean Sea. The section along the Pyrenees overlaps a "furnace metallurgy" region.

See the 2009 paper, "From Metallurgy to Bronze Age Civilizations: The Synthetic Theory", Amzallag

Parts of southern England and Ireland were tin mining centers and the Bell Beakers that commanded those areas at the time are proven thick with L21. This could account for some old branches of L21 along the Pyrenees.

If you look at DF27 frequencies they seem to "pool up" along the Pyrenees too. There is no reason why there couldn't have been some L21 folks mixed in with DF27 folks at the time.

David Mc
06-12-2017, 07:58 PM
I'm not seeing it "the tin trail" of L21 from Beleriand to Massilia...

Beleriand? Is there actually an historical place with that name (outside of Tolkien's Middle Earth)?

Jean M
06-12-2017, 09:22 PM
See the 2009 paper, "From Metallurgy to Bronze Age Civilizations: The Synthetic Theory", Amzallag

But see: Christopher P. Thornton, J.M. Golden, David Killick, Vincent C. Pigott, Thilo Rehren and Benjamin Roberts, A Chalcolithic Error: Rebuttal to Amzallag 2009, American Journal of Archaeology, vol. 114 (2010), pp. 305-15

TigerMW
06-12-2017, 09:28 PM
But see: Christopher P. Thornton, J.M. Golden, David Killick, Vincent C. Pigott, Thilo Rehren and Benjamin Roberts, A Chalcolithic Error: Rebuttal to Amzallag 2009, American Journal of Archaeology, vol. 114 (2010), pp. 305-15

The query I was responding to was to provide a geographic description of the Tin Road. Thornton's rebuttal is of the synthetic theory and what is called the Levantine paridigm.

That does not change the validity of routes considered to be the Tin Road.

Or are you saying there were no routes that could be called the Tin Road?

Jean M
06-12-2017, 09:38 PM
The query I was responding to was to provide a geographic description of the Tin Road. Thornton's rebuttal is of the synthetic theory and what is called the Levantine paridigm.

Sorry. Just acting on automatic.

Ric
07-19-2017, 09:06 PM
Any news of any sort? Regarding the Big tree there are some eastern European names under cts4065. Is it an indication of an early demographic spread from a more western position, like south Germany or Iberia, or are these eastern European individuals ancestral to cts4065, like the remnants of the IE migration?

rms2
07-20-2017, 04:32 PM
Any news of any sort? Regarding the Big tree there are some eastern European names under cts4065. Is it an indication of an early demographic spread from a more western position, like south Germany or Iberia, or are these eastern European individuals ancestral to cts4065, like the remnants of the IE migration?

You can safely eliminate Iberia as a potential Urheimat of DF27. Bell Beaker man I0806 from Quedlinburg, Germany, the midpoint of whose rc dates is around 2290 BC (~2300 BC), is ZZ11 at least and probably R1b-DF27. ZZ11 is the father of both DF27 and U152, which makes them pretty close brothers under P312, so one can look at U152 for part of the story of DF27, IMHO. U152 is solidly eastern Bell Beaker. I wouldn't look for DF27 to be far from that.

R1b-L23 and steppe dna are missing from early Iberian Bell Beaker, from Iberia prior to the Bronze Age, and from Britain before Bell Beaker, despite the genetic affinity of the Neolithic people of Britain for the Neolithic inhabitants of Iberia.

Olalde et al found a strong correlation between y-dna R1b-L23 and steppe dna. That points to a steppe origin for R1b-L23 as a whole. I don't think we can say precisely where DF27 arose yet, but it was probably somewhere between Germany and Ukraine. My vote is for the area of Ukraine/south Poland/Slovakia. Of course, I could be wrong.

Ric
07-20-2017, 10:07 PM
You can safely eliminate Iberia as a potential Urheimat of DF27. Bell Beaker man I0806 from Quedlinburg, Germany, the midpoint of whose rc dates is around 2290 BC (~2300 BC), is ZZ11 at least and probably R1b-DF27. ZZ11 is the father of both DF27 and U152, which makes them pretty close brothers under P312, so one can look at U152 for part of the story of DF27, IMHO. U152 is solidly eastern Bell Beaker. I wouldn't look for DF27 to be far from that.

R1b-L23 and steppe dna are missing from early Iberian Bell Beaker, from Iberia prior to the Bronze Age, and from Britain before Bell Beaker, despite the genetic affinity of the Neolithic people of Britain for the Neolithic inhabitants of Iberia.

Olalde et al found a strong correlation between y-dna R1b-L23 and steppe dna. That points to a steppe origin for R1b-L23 as a whole. I don't think we can say precisely where DF27 arose yet, but it was probably somewhere between Germany and Ukraine. My vote is for the area of Ukraine/south Poland/Slovakia. Of course, I could be wrong.

Very nice summary thank you. Do we have any idea of how many people we are talking about, one million?

rms2
07-21-2017, 02:33 PM
Very nice summary thank you. Do we have any idea of how many people we are talking about, one million?

I'm not sure what you mean, but of course DF27 began with one man who was successful enough to have at least one y-dna successor and so on. At some point during the Bronze Age, DF27 began to expand rapidly.

Ric
07-21-2017, 03:35 PM
I'm not sure what you mean, but of course DF27 began with one man who was successful enough to have at least one y-dna successor and so on. At some point during the Bronze Age, DF27 began to expand rapidly.

I am indeed a little confused, I cannot form a clear picture of the situation, but whatever happened 4900BPE must account for a few facts that we know :

1) The fact that U152 and DF27 were living so close originally, probably as Eastern Bell Beakers as you mentioned, yet are now quite separated in modern heat maps.
2) the age of the df27 subclades seem 'compressed' near df27 itself, like if all the subclade splits occurred within 300 years after df27 occurred. And today, many of these subclades but not all, are present in Iberia. Perhaps this indicated several migration waves of a few individuals ?
3) we know from Julius Cesar that Gaul was populated by millions, perhaps 6 millions inhabitants. You don't reach that number overnight and this indicates that Gaul was already very populated in 1000BC, that is, not much longer after the Bell Beakers decided to move westward. That fact rather suggests that these Bell beaker were very numerous when they moved and settled in Gaul, in opposition with what 1) and 2) suggest.

There are certainly other facts that I forgot. Different quantitative scenario of population expansion in computer simulation, including the initial df27 population in Central Europe, the number of waves, the routes taken etc. must fit better with the present data.

rms2
07-21-2017, 04:07 PM
Remember that Bell Beaker began in about the mid-third millennium BC. It was a fast-moving, horse-borne culture and expanded rapidly. A powerful clan chief who was DF27 could have had many sons, and those sons could have had many sons, especially as they moved into new territory in which their chief competition came from relatively immobile Neolithic farmers.

The facts are what they are: no R1b-L23 (including DF27) and steppe dna in western Europe before Bell Beaker; plenty of both afterwards.

George Chandler
07-21-2017, 04:28 PM
You can safely eliminate Iberia as a potential Urheimat of DF27. Bell Beaker man I0806 from Quedlinburg, Germany, the midpoint of whose rc dates is around 2290 BC (~2300 BC), is ZZ11 at least and probably R1b-DF27. ZZ11 is the father of both DF27 and U152, which makes them pretty close brothers under P312, so one can look at U152 for part of the story of DF27, IMHO. U152 is solidly eastern Bell Beaker. I wouldn't look for DF27 to be far from that.

R1b-L23 and steppe dna are missing from early Iberian Bell Beaker, from Iberia prior to the Bronze Age, and from Britain before Bell Beaker, despite the genetic affinity of the Neolithic people of Britain for the Neolithic inhabitants of Iberia.

Olalde et al found a strong correlation between y-dna R1b-L23 and steppe dna. That points to a steppe origin for R1b-L23 as a whole. I don't think we can say precisely where DF27 arose yet, but it was probably somewhere between Germany and Ukraine. My vote is for the area of Ukraine/south Poland/Slovakia. Of course, I could be wrong.

It makes sense the migration would follow the paths of least resistance. I've wondered if L23 split around Moldova with one group going into what is now Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, and Black Sea coast and the other track following the Ukraine/South Poland/Slovakia route?

George

Camulogène Rix
07-21-2017, 05:38 PM
I am indeed a little confused, I cannot form a clear picture of the situation, but whatever happened 4900BPE must account for a few facts that we know :

3) we know from Julius Cesar that Gaul was populated by millions, perhaps 6 millions inhabitants. You don't reach that number overnight and this indicates that Gaul was already very populated in 1000BC, that is, not much longer after the Bell Beakers decided to move westward. That fact rather suggests that these Bell beaker were very numerous when they moved and settled in Gaul,

Figures about population in Gaul during Metal Age:

-Bronze Age: 1 000 000
-Late Bronze Age: 4 000 000
-Iron Age: 2 500 000
-52 BC: from 4 500 000 to 6 800 000
Now, what was precisely the impact of the (Proto)Celtic invasions (o/w DF 27) on this demographic growth, question mark...

17654

Arch
08-03-2017, 11:04 AM
Notably, S116 in Iberia does not share a lot of Steppe ancestry.

rms2
08-03-2017, 11:56 AM
Notably, S116 in Iberia does not share a lot of Steppe ancestry.

We don't have any Iberian P312 (S116) from the time non-Iberian Bell Beaker was first arriving in Iberia (mid-third millennium BC). Chances are it had plenty of steppe dna, since it did elsewhere. Southern Europe, including Iberia, however, had a large population of Neolithic farmers. The incoming steppe-descended population was much smaller relative to the overall population than it was in northern Europe, so mixing with the natives led to the dilution of steppe dna in their descendants.

That is why southern Europe in general has less steppe dna than northern Europe and a greater proportion of EEF.

Webb
08-03-2017, 01:06 PM
We don't have any Iberian P312 (S116) from the time non-Iberian Bell Beaker was first arriving in Iberia (mid-third millennium BC). Chances are it had plenty of steppe dna, since it did elsewhere. Southern Europe, including Iberia, however, had a large population of Neolithic farmers. The incoming steppe-descended population was much smaller relative to the overall population than it was in northern Europe, so mixing with the natives led to the dilution of steppe dna in their descendants.

That is why southern Europe in general has less steppe dna than northern Europe and a greater proportion of EEF.

Z214 671 BC (1528 BC — 86 AD)
M153 201 AD (603 BC — 857 AD)

These clades and dates are from McDonald's expanded P312 and clades dating. It is interesting that the clade that years ago had everyone convinced that DF27 originated in the Iberian peninsula is so young!!!!!!!!! Until aDNA is found that can be associated with a radiocarbon date, I am sticking to my theory that DF27 was born exactly, or very close to where its brother, U152 was born, which is also probably pretty close to where all of the rest of P312 clades was born, which is somewhere east. I think P312 moved west, coming into contact with I2 moving east, and the Bell Beaker package was formed.

rms2
08-03-2017, 01:15 PM
Z214 671 BC (1528 BC — 86 AD)
M153 201 AD (603 BC — 857 AD)

These clades and dates are from McDonald's expanded P312 and clades dating. It is interesting that the clade that years ago had everyone convinced that DF27 originated in the Iberian peninsula is so young!!!!!!!!! Until aDNA is found that can be associated with a radiocarbon date, I am sticking to my theory that DF27 was born exactly, or very close to where its brother, U152 was born, which is also probably pretty close to where all of the rest of P312 clades was born, which is somewhere east. I think P312 moved west, coming into contact with I2 moving east, and the Bell Beaker package was formed.

I agree with most of your post, but I don't think I2 moving east had much of an impact on the formation of Bell Beaker.

Instead, I think Christian Jeunesse's creative bit of "archaeological fiction" is turning out to be prophetic:

The dogma of the Iberian origin of the Bell Beaker: attempting its deconstruction (https://www.academia.edu/11325848/The_dogma_of_the_Iberian_origin_of_the_Bell_Beaker _attempting_its_deconstruction).

ADW_1981
08-03-2017, 02:44 PM
Notably, S116 in Iberia does not share a lot of Steppe ancestry.

But it does have, what they call "Steppe" ancestry which didn't exist prior, as well as so-called "farmer" ancestry that was different from the earlier inhabitants. This is still a very significant finding.

Dewsloth
08-03-2017, 03:23 PM
Z214 671 BC (1528 BC — 86 AD)
M153 201 AD (603 BC — 857 AD)

These clades and dates are from McDonald's expanded P312 and clades dating. It is interesting that the clade that years ago had everyone convinced that DF27 originated in the Iberian peninsula is so young!!!!!!!!! Until aDNA is found that can be associated with a radiocarbon date, I am sticking to my theory that DF27 was born exactly, or very close to where its brother, U152 was born, which is also probably pretty close to where all of the rest of P312 clades was born, which is somewhere east. I think P312 moved west, coming into contact with I2 moving east, and the Bell Beaker package was formed.

I've seen McDonald's dates for some of the top clades of DF19 and they also look surprisingly recent. I'm not really sure what to make of it.

McDonald:
Clade\t Best guess 95% confidence interval
P312 3155 BC (3898 BC — 2568 BC)
DF19 2747 BC (3596 BC — 1773 BC)
DF87 1159 AD (432 AD — 1602 AD)
BY19316 1589 AD (1136 AD — 1857 AD)

YFull:
R-Z302 CTS12966/DF87 * CTS9798 * Z302/S233 formed 4400 ybp, TMRCA 4400 ybp
R-Z302 (age: 4928 ybp) Formula: (4928)/1
TMRCA SNPs STRs

SNPs currently defining R-Z302
CTS12966 / DF87 SNP rate
CTS9798 R-Z302* SNP rate
Z302 / S233 SNP rate
:confused:

Webb
08-03-2017, 03:41 PM
I've seen McDonald's dates for some of the top clades of DF19 and they also look surprisingly recent. I'm not really sure what to make of it.

McDonald:
Clade\t Best guess 95% confidence interval
P312 3155 BC (3898 BC — 2568 BC)
DF19 2747 BC (3596 BC — 1773 BC)
DF87 1159 AD (432 AD — 1602 AD)
BY19316 1589 AD (1136 AD — 1857 AD)

YFull:
R-Z302 CTS12966/DF87 * CTS9798 * Z302/S233 formed 4400 ybp, TMRCA 4400 ybp
R-Z302 (age: 4928 ybp) Formula: (4928)/1
TMRCA SNPs STRs

SNPs currently defining R-Z302
CTS12966 / DF87 SNP rate
CTS9798 R-Z302* SNP rate
Z302 / S233 SNP rate
:confused:


R-M153CTS9164 * M153 * Y23933 formed 2900 ybp, TMRCA 2700 ybp

R-CTS2142Z29687/Y9356 * Z29686 * CTS2142+1 SNPs formed 2700 ybp, TMRCA 2000 ybp

R-CTS9053Y9072 * BY3189 * FGC35766+1 SNPs formed 2000 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp

R-CTS7359CTS7359 * PH4283 * CTS10504formed 2000 ybp, TMRCA 1950 ybp

R-PF7203CTS8412 * CTS5103 * PF7203 formed 1950 ybp, TMRCA 1950 ybp

R-Y31334Y31334 * Y32050 * Y32049+1 SNPs formed 1950 ybp, TMRCA 1300 ybp


His dates and YFull's are different for sure. Sometimes his dates are older, and sometimes they are more recent.

Arch
08-06-2017, 08:04 AM
You can thank archaeologists for that myth that Bell Beakers originated in Iberia. People not pots. :P

razyn
08-08-2017, 10:08 PM
DF27 (the mutation) is a few thousand years old. Our discussions of it, however, began less than six years ago. It was first identified and named in October, 2011. And that news was shared on DNA-Forums, by Rich Rocca, in the following month. [The initials of the forum became the first letters of several important SNPs that were newly discovered around that time, including DF17, DF19, DF27 and DF99 among others.] Sadly, DNA-Forums abruptly ceased to be a working website about two months later. Then there was a gap of a couple of years during which the serious discussions of DF27 were taking place in somewhat less congenial, somewhat harder to find media. These included the R1b discussion area of WorldFamilies; the Facebook group for ISOGG; and Eupedia genetics forums. None of those are very easy to search for older discussions, especially if one does not know that they had taken place.

During the past three days I have taken a stab at creating a sort of historiography for DF27 research. I've just rewritten the introductory paragraphs of post #2 on that thread (can't edit the original post, that was too long ago). In the process of editing, I determined that this thread of Mike's was the first one on the Anthrogenica forum to have that DF27 Timeline sort of focus. So I'm hereby linking my new "Way Back" thread, to serve more or less as prefatory matter, or the "back story," for this one. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11380-Way-back-when-P312*-started-looking-like-Z196-until-DF27-was-discovered

Isidro
08-08-2017, 10:41 PM
So,I would like to know, after so many years what can we take home as a fact about DF27 inception.

I am not sure "brothers" L21 and U152, to name the major expanded branches can say much about DF27 itself unless we freelance assuming they were all clustered together, that is definitely not a pre requisite but I'd like to be educated.

TigerMW
08-09-2017, 03:15 PM
... I am not sure "brothers" L21 and U152, to name the major expanded branches can say much about DF27 itself unless we freelance assuming they were all clustered together, that is definitely not a pre requisite but I'd like to be educated.

We can not lump L21 together with either U152 or DF27 in terms of closeness of relationship in comparison of U152 and DF27's relationship. Richard S describes it here.


.... Bell Beaker man I0806 from Quedlinburg, Germany, the midpoint of whose rc dates is around 2290 BC (~2300 BC), is ZZ11 at least and probably R1b-DF27. ZZ11 is the father of both DF27 and U152, which makes them pretty close brothers under P312, so one can look at U152 for part of the story of DF27, IMHO. U152 is solidly eastern Bell Beaker.
...

An MRCA (Most Recent Common Ancestor) is just one man by definition. The genetic distance in genuine SNPs from the P312 MRCA to the ZZ11 MRCA to the MRCA's of U152 and DF27 is next to nothing.

L21 is ZZ11- and its MRCA is further away (more SNPs) as far as a genetic distance from the P312 MRCA.

I don't see how the U152 MRCA and DF27 MRCA could be distant from each other, at least at their birth's, or at least culturally. They were part of the early P312 family, the early descendants of the P312 MRCA.

I have to look at the alignment of the cultures in the mid-3rd millenium BC and so this is one of my favorite charts.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/88n8qs3fwo08udm/Beakers-Regional_Groups_Converging.pdf?dl=0

If the chart had a time lapse, Corded Wares and Unetice would have to be added.

It appears the early Western Bell Beakers didn't have R1b-P312. We know the Eastern Bell Beakers did. We don't know if Corded Wares prior to this had any P312 or L151. Do we know about the Italic Bell Beakers?

rms2
08-09-2017, 04:15 PM
. . . Do we know about the Italic Bell Beakers?

I2478 (2200–1930 BC) from Olalde et al is R1b-P312 with steppe dna. He was a 30-40 year old man whose skeleton was recovered from a Bell Beaker site at Via Guidorossi (Parma, Italy). I2478 was buried with a couple of bell beakers and some other objects (page 15 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Information).

He is the only BB man from Italy whose results we have thus far.

We do have those three Italian Remedello guys from earlier in the 4th and 3rd millennia BC who had no steppe dna and belonged to y-dna haplogroup I (one I and two I2, if I recall correctly).

TigerMW
08-09-2017, 06:18 PM
I2478 (2200–1930 BC) from Olalde et al is R1b-P312 with steppe dna. He was a 30-40 year old man whose skeleton was recovered from a Bell Beaker site at Via Guidorossi (Parma, Italy). I2478 was buried with a couple of bell beakers and some other objects (page 15 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Information).

He is the only BB man from Italy whose results we have thus far.

We do have those three Italian Remedello guys from earlier in the 4th and 3rd millennia BC who had no steppe dna and belonged to y-dna haplogroup I (one I and two I2, if I recall correctly).

It would be interesting to see if the Italic Bell Beakers had a preponderance of R1b-DF27. It's hard to know what the configuration of R1b-P312 subclades was immediately before and after the fusion/fission events of Central Europe during mid-3rd millenium BC timeframe.

Since it appears that DF27 was not in the early Western Bell Beakers, it could have had a more southerly position in the immediate aftermath of the regional Bell Beaker conflicts and moved more along the Med across the Lower Rhone River to the Pyrenees and Aquitainia.

Arch
08-10-2017, 09:38 AM
DF27 Urnfield? c. 1300 BCE? Tumulus? c. 1600 BCE? :noidea:

R.Rocca
08-10-2017, 11:49 AM
I2478 (2200–1930 BC) from Olalde et al is R1b-P312 with steppe dna. He was a 30-40 year old man whose skeleton was recovered from a Bell Beaker site at Via Guidorossi (Parma, Italy). I2478 was buried with a couple of bell beakers and some other objects (page 15 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Information).

He is the only BB man from Italy whose results we have thus far.

We do have those three Italian Remedello guys from earlier in the 4th and 3rd millennia BC who had no steppe dna and belonged to y-dna haplogroup I (one I and two I2, if I recall correctly).

Due to my own personal interest, this will be the first sample I look at when the data becomes available. In a personal communication, I was told that the automated calls to U152's position were unsuccessful, so this sample could very well be U152+L2-. The area of Parma has a very large U152+L2- population. I don't think DF27 is out of the question however, as I suspect DF27 is likely neck and neck with U152 in frequency in near-by NW Italy.

On closer inspection, all three Remedello samples were resolved to at least I2a1a1-M26... aka the Sardinian branch.

Arch
08-10-2017, 02:19 PM
Yes, the good ole days of DNA-Forums where ad hominem attacks were taking place in a very uncongenial environment. A time when the haute bourgeoise looked down upon uneducated peasants comparing academic credentials and smiting unworthy bagaudae. Peeps with 'tudes nitpicking everything from grammar, spelling, logic, etc. instead of focusing on the agenda at hand, aka speculation ad nauseam from all sides. The "Wayback" can stay back for me, as there is no value in the speculative past where nobody got it right except for those who championed in their own mind that they were - I was there myself. Far as I'm concerned, DF27 originated in Greenland and Japan at about 65,230,101 years ago with the dinosores after the Earth was created 4,000 years ago. We need muh ancient y-DNA and academia to get caught up-to-date.

Arch

"...fire and fury..."

rms2
08-12-2017, 11:48 PM
I remember those old dna forums days, too. Eventually the ancient dna evidence came down in favor of the steppe origin of R1b-M269, and the old FC Ice Age Refuge argument suffered the fate of Mr. Peck in Ghostbusters.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfVcvyxLj-s

razyn
09-11-2017, 03:54 PM
It had escaped my notice that Carlos Quiles recently updated his interesting paper of Feb. 2017. We had mostly discussed it in May, on a couple of more general Anthrogenica threads and w/o reference to the Olalde et al (2017) data from Bell Beaker remains (not available to him in February). He now has more to say about DF27, particularly on pp. 59-62, in the context of the Bell Beaker expansion. So I'll paste in a link to the revision, as posted to Academia. I believe the revision is also available via ResearchGate, but don't have the link for that.

https://www.academia.edu/33256216/Indo-European_demic_diffusion_model_2nd_edition_revised _and_updated

Some of our early discussion, in which the author of the study participated, was here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10541-new-papers-about-indo-european-language-origin

TigerMW
09-12-2017, 05:04 PM
It had escaped my notice that Carlos Quiles recently updated his interesting paper of Feb. 2017. We had mostly discussed it in May, on a couple of more general Anthrogenica threads and w/o reference to the Olalde et al (2017) data from Bell Beaker remains (not available to him in February). He now has more to say about DF27, particularly on pp. 59-62, in the context of the Bell Beaker expansion. So I'll paste in a link to the revision, as posted to Academia. I believe the revision is also available via ResearchGate, but don't have the link for that.

https://www.academia.edu/33256216/Indo-European_demic_diffusion_model_2nd_edition_revised _and_updated

Some of our early discussion, in which the author of the study participated, was here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10541-new-papers-about-indo-european-language-origin

One of the points I've made in the past is that R1b-P312 (initially with the East/Dutch Beakers) may have had multiple waves lapping against the Atlantic and the Pyrenees, spilling over. In the case of the British Isles the initial wave may have hit all of the Isles within the first couple of centuries. In the case of the Iberian Peninsula, it may have been more balanced across the waves. This may reflect what the author is saying in there is only one certain Pre-Celtic language in the peninsula.


The only certain IndoEuropean language of Iberia that can be considered of a non-Celtic nature is Lusitanian (which has been linked to a potential Galaico-Lusitanian group of the north-western Iberian Peninsula), and there has been some discussion on the pre-Celtic nature of the languages of Cantabri, Astures, Pellendones, Carpetani, and Vettones.

I think we confuse DF27 a bit with the Iberian Peninsula proper when it most heavily found along the Pyrenees including SW France. We should probably take more care to refer to SW Europe in relation to the Iberian "Peninsula". We don't want to lump both sides of the Pyrenees and Eastern Iberia with the Atlantic facade of the Iberian Peninsula.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.png

This is speculative - just a thought. I wonder if this is just more evidence that some forms of non-L151 R1b and non-R1b haplogroups were more prevalent in an non-P312 initial wave into the Iberian Peninsula, forming an almagamated culture, the early Western Beakers? They may have been a more formidable foe for the Eastern Bell Beakers and P312. On the other hand, the Eastern-Dutch Beakers found easy pickings in the Isles. Maybe I'm just tracking a little better with Jean M.

curiousII
09-28-2017, 03:00 AM
All right, if DF27 has been conclusively proven to have originated outside of Iberia, why is there such continuous effort to put it back there? I mean, this has gone on for the few years that I've been following the discussion, and with each piece of science that puts DF27 with Bell-Beakers in Quedlinburg and Augsburg, someone will pop up with some apparent "evidence" putting it back in Spain someplace.

Why is this so argumented? If some new fossil is found that gives a different point-of-origins, of course that'd change placement(s). But that hasn't happened, has it?

I have my Big Y ordered, and I'm really expectant of my results. It seems DF27 is a real controversy, and I swear I don't think I'm a matador.

Edit: just checked and my Big Y is back, haplogroup unchanged. Any DF27 admins reading this how about taking a look when you can, thanks.

alan
09-28-2017, 04:38 AM
All right, if DF27 has been conclusively proven to have originated outside of Iberia, why is there such continuous effort to put it back there? I mean, this has gone on for the few years that I've been following the discussion, and with each piece of science that puts DF27 with Bell-Beakers in Quedlinburg and Augsburg, someone will pop up with some apparent "evidence" putting it back in Spain someplace.

Why is this so argumented? If some new fossil is found that gives a different point-of-origins, of course that'd change placement(s). But that hasn't happened, has it?

I have my Big Y ordered, and I'm really expectant of my results. It seems DF27 is a real controversy, and I swear I don't think I'm a matador.

Edit: just checked and my Big Y is back, haplogroup unchanged. Any DF27 admins reading this how about taking a look when you can, thanks.

Just people still making the same mistake of trying to interpret the situ 4-5 thousand years ago using modern DNA. That and people who allow their biases to cloud their judgement.

Earl Davis
09-28-2017, 07:46 AM
All right, if DF27 has been conclusively proven to have originated outside of Iberia, why is there such continuous effort to put it back there? I mean, this has gone on for the few years that I've been following the discussion, and with each piece of science that puts DF27 with Bell-Beakers in Quedlinburg and Augsburg, someone will pop up with some apparent "evidence" putting it back in Spain someplace.

Why is this so argumented? If some new fossil is found that gives a different point-of-origins, of course that'd change placement(s). But that hasn't happened, has it?

I have my Big Y ordered, and I'm really expectant of my results. It seems DF27 is a real controversy, and I swear I don't think I'm a matador.


I think in part it's because of the very limited number of DF27 sub clades that they tend to be included in these studies. If you keep picking 5 subclades of DF27 known to be common in Spain it's not surprising that Spain features in the conclusions. What conclusion would they reach if they tested subclades of DF27 that are almost unknown in Spain like those from the Nordic countries?

Earl.

Ric
09-28-2017, 12:51 PM
The fact that France is so reluctant to test ancient DNA, or any DNA at all for that matter, doesn't help. So you have a big gap between Iberia and the Benelux now, but what 'IF' there was no such gap 3000 years ago and df27 was spread evenly between Iberia and the North sea ?
I don't know how we could prove that without France catching up in ancient dna, perhaps in 100 years so it will not hurt any feelings anymore...

Isidro
09-28-2017, 01:03 PM
While when R1b-DF27 appeared seems clear, where it originated may be more difficult to pinpoint. If we
extrapolated directly from haplogroup frequencies, then R1b-DF27 would have originated in the Basque
Country; however, for R1b-DF27 and most of its subhaplogroups, internal diversity measures and age estimates
are lower in Basques than in any other population. Then, the high frequencies of R1b-DF27 among Basques could
be better explained by drift rather than by a local origin (except for the case of M153; see below), which could also
have decreased the internal diversity of R1b-DF27 among Basques. An origin of R1b-DF27 outside the Iberian
Peninsula could also be contemplated, and could mirror the external origin of R1b-M269, even if it reaches there
its highest frequencies. However, the search for an external origin would be limited to France and Great Britain;
R1b-DF27 seems to be rare or absent elsewhere: Y-STR data are available only for France, and point to a lower
diversity and more recent ages than in Iberia (Table 3.


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x#Fig2

curiousII
09-28-2017, 01:46 PM
While when R1b-DF27 appeared seems clear, where it originated may be more difficult to pinpoint. If we
extrapolated directly from haplogroup frequencies, then R1b-DF27 would have originated in the Basque
Country; however, for R1b-DF27 and most of its subhaplogroups, internal diversity measures and age estimates
are lower in Basques than in any other population. Then, the high frequencies of R1b-DF27 among Basques could
be better explained by drift rather than by a local origin (except for the case of M153; see below), which could also
have decreased the internal diversity of R1b-DF27 among Basques. An origin of R1b-DF27 outside the Iberian
Peninsula could also be contemplated, and could mirror the external origin of R1b-M269, even if it reaches there
its highest frequencies. However, the search for an external origin would be limited to France and Great Britain;
R1b-DF27 seems to be rare or absent elsewhere: Y-STR data are available only for France, and point to a lower
diversity and more recent ages than in Iberia (Table 3.


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x#Fig2



You're DF27, not FD27, right?

I'm at 1,182 Big Y matches so far. It appears I have 26 novel variants, and with the matches that have SNV's with me, we're all at 12.

Isidro
09-28-2017, 02:37 PM
You're DF27, not FD27, right?

I'm at 1,182 Big Y matches so far. It appears I have 26 novel variants, and with the matches that have SNV's with me, we're all at 12.

Yes, I am DF27 and did the latest available pack from FTDNA
with the terminal S11121+ and negative beyond it. No big y tested .