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Ric
09-28-2017, 03:34 PM
You're DF27, not FD27, right?

I'm at 1,182 Big Y matches so far. It appears I have 26 novel variants, and with the matches that have SNV's with me, we're all at 12.

You have 1,182 BigY matches ? but that's half of the entire df27 group

Dewsloth
09-28-2017, 04:10 PM
You have 1,182 BigY matches ? but that's half of the entire df27 group

FTDNA's Big Y matches unhelpfully do not differentiate between people in your own haplogroup and others. I have a lot of "matches" that are not even DF19s...

MitchellSince1893
09-28-2017, 04:22 PM
FTDNA's Big Y matches unhelpfully do not differentiate between people in your own haplogroup and others. I have a lot of "matches" that are not even DF19s...
True. Most of my BigY "matches" are more than 4000 years ago

curiousII
09-28-2017, 05:21 PM
FTDNA's Big Y matches unhelpfully do not differentiate between people in your own haplogroup and others. I have a lot of "matches" that are not even DF19s...
That's a good point. An example on my test is a match I share 12 SNV's with whose haplogroup is A9510. Yet, A9510 is downstream from FGC20761 which is red on my haplotree, which means I'm FGC20761-; I tested negative for that SNP.

What kind of match is that one?



You have 1,182 BigY matches ? but that's half of the entire df27 group

Hi, Ric! How are you? Is this a lot of matches? I've taken my Family Finder since we last spoke; I have 2,377 matches there at the moment. I'm WAMH, which means I'm common in the New World, but many of my new Big Y matches don't have the WAMH badge.

Another example similar to the one I used with Dewsloth: I have a match whose haplogroup is FGC17464, downstream from Z18. Yet I'm Z18-. How to interpret these kind of matches? Are they very old, or just false positives or something?

Ric
09-28-2017, 05:33 PM
Hi, Ric! How are you? Is this a lot of matches? I've taken my Family Finder since we last spoke; I have 2,377 matches there at the moment
Hi, doing ~OK. Yes 1182 is a lot. I have 75, some have even less.

curiousII
09-28-2017, 05:55 PM
Hi, doing ~OK. Yes 1182 is a lot. I have 75, some have even less.

To make sure I'm reading my haplotree right, you're CTS4065, downstream from Z295, which itself is downstream from Z209. I'm negative for both, Z209- and Z295-. Yet, in theory you could be in my Big Y matches somewhere. Apparently you're not as I had no luck searching for CTS4065 on my Big Y match page, but I think my test is still loading as I still can't download my BAM file.

But I believe I'm reading this right, and some of my matches are downstream from SNP's I tested negative for.

Anyhow, I'm still Z2573. Looks like that's as far as I get until science discovers something downstream.

Ric
09-28-2017, 06:09 PM
To make sure I'm reading my haplotree right, you're CTS4065, downstream from Z295, which itself is downstream from Z209. I'm negative for both, Z209- and Z295-
yes correct.
don't you match anybody under Z209 or z295 ?

yeah I know, since ftdna is not hierarchical, you have to search manually in the haplotree for every single match...lots of work when you have 1182 matches

curiousII
09-28-2017, 06:19 PM
yes correct.
don't you match anybody under Z209 or z295 ?

I don't know, all my matches are gone now. I'm back to "Awaiting Lab Results."

Well, that was fun for 1/2 day or so.

razyn
09-28-2017, 06:20 PM
I'll want to comment on the DF27 paper linked today by Isidro, but I have other duties at present. We previously were discussing this from its abstract, as Calafell et al 2017. Looks as if they published it as Solé-Morata et al 2017. But Calafell is still the contact (email address). I sent him an email nearly two months ago, haven't heard back but he was on vacation, and then school started again.

Be that as it may, the sources include several recent publications by Larmuseau (with others, usually) at footnote number 11 and later (in the low 30s). I hadn't read anything of his since the big Flanders study in 2013. I'm especially interested in the one about radiation, at note 11. I've thought that for a long time, but hadn't seen much evidence that anybody with serious credentials in genetics was pursuing it. IMO it could be related to the ores like pitchblende that the early L11 guys were mining and working with, as they developed the more or less magical science of metallurgy. As it happens, the radioactive rocks are found along a possible route for the L11 ancestors rms2 has been talking about recently, around the head of the Tisza river and then perhaps north of the Carpathians (rather than up the Danube all the way, and through the Iron Gates). If metallic ore sources in the Erzgebirge are involved, probably the Vistula and Elbe watersheds are also involved, in that migratory path. I don't want to go too far with this, not having read the paper. But I'm glad to see that there is such a paper.

Ric
09-28-2017, 06:44 PM
The link is broken, can you tell us what was it about, radiation speeding up SNP accumulation ?

Jean M
09-28-2017, 07:59 PM
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x#Fig2

You seem to have used 'color transparent' on the text here, so it is invisible to me. Here's the abstract:


Haplogroup R1b-M269 comprises most Western European Y chromosomes; of its main branches, R1b-DF27 is by far the least known, and it appears to be highly prevalent only in Iberia. We have genotyped 1072 R1b-DF27 chromosomes for six additional SNPs and 17 Y-STRs in population samples from Spain, Portugal and France in order to further characterize this lineage and, in particular, to ascertain the time and place where it originated, as well as its subsequent dynamics. We found that R1b-DF27 is present in frequencies ~40% in Iberian populations and up to 70% in Basques, but it drops quickly to 6–20% in France. Overall, the age of R1b-DF27 is estimated at ~4,200 years ago, at the transition between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, when the Y chromosome landscape of W Europe was thoroughly remodeled. In spite of its high frequency in Basques, Y-STR internal diversity of R1b-DF27 is lower there, and results in more recent age estimates; NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF27. Subhaplogroup frequencies within R1b-DF27 are geographically structured, and show domains that are reminiscent of the pre-Roman Celtic/Iberian division, or of the medieval Christian kingdoms.

MitchellSince1893
09-28-2017, 08:11 PM
We already know that DF27 is older than 4200 years before present. RISE563 is U152 and is ~4500 years old . Based on this alone, DF27 has to be older...my guess based on available data is ~5000 ybp.

razyn
09-28-2017, 08:39 PM
The link is broken, can you tell us what was it about, radiation speeding up SNP accumulation ?

Larmuseau, M. H. D. et al. Recent Radiation within Y-chromosomal Haplogroup R-M269 Resulted in High Y-STR Haplotype Resemblance. Ann. Hum. Genet. 78, 92–103 (2014).

That's endnote 11 in the new paper. The text around that note is indeed more specifically about STRs than SNPs, but I don't really know what Larmuseau had to say. I'll attempt to paste in the text from the new paper.


Finally, direct dating from NRY sequence variation puts the origin of R1b-M269 in the Early Bronze Age, ~4500 years ago (ya), consistent with the growing ancient DNA record, where a surge in R1b-M269 is indeed seen at that time. Note, though, that R1b-M415, a branch ancestral to R1b-M269, was found as early as 14,000 ya in Italy and 7,000 ya in Spain. Moreover, lack of structure of STR variation within R1b-M269 [endnote 11] points also to an explosive growth.

Might be talking about the subclades radiating away from a place of origin, for all I know. (Rather than having one's lunch while sitting on a radioactive rock.) As previously noted, it's best to read the paper first. Anyway one may always speculate, mayn't one?

Ric
09-28-2017, 08:55 PM
Neus Solé-Morata et al. :
The age of this haplogroup appears clear: with independent samples (our samples vs. the 1000 genome project dataset) and independent methods (variation in 15 STRs vs. whole Y-chromosome sequences), the age of R1b-DF27 is firmly grounded around 4000–4500 ya

either they are right and all df27 subclades are therefore younger, or the ground is not so firm.

razyn
09-28-2017, 09:39 PM
We previously discussed this paper on a different thread, I had the same reservations about it (mainly, their methodology) then that I have now, and there was already quite a bit of discussion. It's a good paper, I'm all for collection and analysis of tons of samples; but it doesn't prove what they claim (that DF27 originated in NE Iberia, or that the SNP itself is about 4 to 4.5 thousand years old). http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11570-Analysis-of-the-Iberian-R1b-DF27-haplogroup&p=269916&viewfull=1#post269916

Anyway the notes are copious, and cite a lot of stuff I haven't read, as well as a lot of stuff I have.

alan
09-28-2017, 09:59 PM
Again, using modern distribution and even variance is very dubious.

alan
09-28-2017, 10:31 PM
Dont we have frequency by French region of what can be assumed to largely be DF27?

Ric
09-29-2017, 12:23 AM
The place of birth and the age of clades are a different issues. I am personally comfortable with their conclusion that the age of df27 may be a bit younger than what was previously believed.

Ric
09-29-2017, 01:09 AM
Dont we have frequency by French region of what can be assumed to largely be DF27?
Yeah, I am ONE dot in eastern France (and most likely Benelux actually). I made a hot spot by myself. Seriously, to answer your question there is no better place than the Df27 group at FTDNA, how many French there ? very few. Not enough to make a regional map. However, I think that many Df27 French are actually from the Benelux but they don't dig deep enough in their ancestry to know it. Genealogy cannot help when your ancestor came from Benelux 1000 years ago or more.

One very big question is : were the Franks, who massively repopulated Northern Gaul in the 4, 5 and 6th century, df27 ?
Fast answer : no, they were mostly U106.
Proof ? the Frankish elite was indeed Germanic mostly U106, but what about the regular warrior from the big Frankish federation in 4-5th century Benelux/Belgium ?

As a French df27, I 'd like to know.

Arch
09-29-2017, 09:30 AM
Just people still making the same mistake of trying to interpret the situ 4-5 thousand years ago using modern DNA. That and people who allow their biases to cloud their judgement.

Which means everybody.

ehjelt
09-29-2017, 01:51 PM
Maarten H. D. Larmuseau et al.: Recent Radiation within Y-chromosomal Haplogroup R-M269 Resulted in High Y-STR Haplotype Resemblance. Annals of Human Genetics, March 2014.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ahg.12050/abstract

Ric
09-29-2017, 02:24 PM
Maarten H. D. Larmuseau et al.: Recent Radiation within Y-chromosomal Haplogroup R-M269 Resulted in High Y-STR Haplotype Resemblance. Annals of Human Genetics, March 2014.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ahg.12050/abstract

Perhaps somebody at ftdna will read this article and decide to make a product pack (Y37 + SNP pack). Right now there is no mention of SNPs at all in he product page.

ADW_1981
09-29-2017, 02:45 PM
Even if DF27+ is NE Iberian in origin, it's rather arbitrary and irrelevant because by 1800 BC, S21184+ was spread northwards carrying possible wares like Beaker products and metals. I think maybe only 1 or 2 members are Iberian over 50+ now. It's even more common in Italy.

Isidro
09-29-2017, 03:41 PM
I am not sure what you mean by irrelevant and to whom it's so,
in the same line do you agree that tracing it's ancestry to the Steppes makes it even more irrelevant?



Even if DF27+ is NE Iberian in origin, it's rather arbitrary and irrelevant because by 1800 BC, S21184+ was spread northwards carrying possible wares like Beaker products and metals. I think maybe only 1 or 2 members are Iberian over 50+ now. It's even more common in Italy.

Dewsloth
09-29-2017, 03:55 PM
Dont we have frequency by French region of what can be assumed to largely be DF27?


Yeah, I am ONE dot in eastern France (and most likely Benelux actually). I made a hot spot by myself. Seriously, to answer your question there is no better place than the Df27 group at FTDNA, how many French there ? very few. Not enough to make a regional map. However, I think that many Df27 French are actually from the Benelux but they don't dig deep enough in their ancestry to know it. Genealogy cannot help when your ancestor came from Benelux 1000 years ago or more.

One very big question is : were the Franks, who massively repopulated Northern Gaul in the 4, 5 and 6th century, df27 ?
Fast answer : no, they were mostly U106.
Proof ? the Frankish elite was indeed Germanic mostly U106, but what about the regular warrior from the big Frankish federation in 4-5th century Benelux/Belgium ?

As a French df27, I 'd like to know.

Well France does seem to be under-reported for its own domestic reasons, but since there are many expats who are not under the same restrictions when they list their MDKAs:

19048

You can see the French regions where U106 clusters (no surprise, there). DF19 looks benelux (or, stretched east and west, gerbeneluxish) in its MDKA distribution. Still, the French reporting is unhelpful. I'm not sure what one can conclude about DF27 from that map -- I mean, I think Paris probably had more than one DF27. ;)

ADW_1981
09-29-2017, 04:22 PM
I am not sure what you mean by irrelevant and to whom it's so,
in the same line do you agree that tracing it's ancestry to the Steppes makes it even more irrelevant?

Well, we probably both agree S21184+ isn't from the steppes. DF27 may not be either. The L51+ ancestor? Plausibly, more likely than Iberia that's for sure. M269+ with an EHG and Ukranian origin seems likely in my view, and it seems the data supports it.

Isidro
09-29-2017, 04:42 PM
Plausibly no one has any idea where M269 origitated so picking an arbitrary mutation to fill one's needs it's an obvious way to ignore the thrust of the culture they helped to spread and a detriment for other haplogrups that moved with them,
if I were you I would stop worrying so much about my personal mutation and look at the whole picture.


Well, we probably both agree S21184+ isn't from the steppes. DF27 may not be either. The L51+ ancestor? Plausibly, more likely than Iberia that's for sure. M269+ with an EHG and Ukranian origin seems likely in my view, and it seems the data supports it.

ADW_1981
09-29-2017, 04:55 PM
Plausibly no one has any idea where M269 origitated so picking an arbitrary mutation to fill one's needs it's an obvious way to ignore the thrust of the culture they helped to spread and a detriment for other haplogrups that moved with them,
if I were you I would stop worrying so much about my personal mutation and look at the whole picture.

It's not really arbitrary when you have M269+ data around 3500 BC in Ukraine/Russia and this is isn't too far from the age of the mutation based on statistical methods. In addition, data from precursor cultures that turn up xM269.

Ric
09-29-2017, 05:49 PM
Well France does seem to be under-reported for its own domestic reasons, but since there are many expats who are not under the same restrictions when they list their MDKAs:

19048

You can see the French regions where U106 clusters (no surprise, there). DF19 looks benelux (or, stretched east and west, gerbeneluxish) in its MDKA distribution. Still, the French reporting is unhelpful. I'm not sure what one can conclude about DF27 from that map -- I mean, I think Paris probably had more than one DF27. ;)

...expats or colonials from the US and Quebec ? which in this case creates a bias for the Atlantic-facing regions and Normandy, which contributed relatively more than center and eastern France to populate the Americas. And you can see that continental France seems indeed less dense in df27 than the West. It is also surprising to see Western Germany and Switzerland relatively high in df27, abruptly falling down at the French border in Lorraine. True or artifact I couldn't say.
Is Western Germany really more rich in df27 that Lorraine ?
Also, I notice sort of a vacuum in Southern Belgium where there is white dot near Liege, while it increases at Maastricht in nearby South Netherland. Again, is this true or sampling ?

Dewsloth
09-29-2017, 06:29 PM
...expats or colonials from the US and Quebec ?

Well, all of the above -- that's everyone who joined the FTDNA group and listed a MDKA location. I didn't mean just strictly modern expats. I have no idea who the people are. :)


which in this case creates a bias for the Atlantic-facing regions and Normandy, which contributed relatively more than center and eastern France to populate the Americas. And you can see that continental France seems indeed less dense in df27 than the West. It is also surprising to see Western Germany and Switzerland relatively high in df27, abruptly falling down at the French border in Lorraine. True or artifact I couldn't say.
Is Western Germany really more rich in df27 that Lorraine ?
Also, I notice sort of a vacuum in Southern Belgium where there is white dot near Liege, while it increases at Maastricht in nearby South Netherland. Again, is this true or sampling ?

Well, the white dots don't count -- they are errors where people have joined a group, but the admin has then determined they are a different haplogroup.

I don't claim to know if the maps mean anything significant.
I first started looking just at the DF19 one because I'm a DF19, and the reporting hole for France was startling considering the density right across the borders.
I initially assumed it just meant that people from France weren't reporting, and the FTDNA customers were over-represented by people of British, Irish and German descent.
But when you look at U106, you can see a Normandy cluster and while the density is lower, there is certainly no hole for U152 or DF27 (and I am not very familiar with the regional origins of French Canadians, but I'll take your word for it).
It may just be that the DF27, U106 and U152 populations are just so much larger that they show even with the under-reporting where DF19 is so much smaller, it's barely there.

alan
09-29-2017, 07:58 PM
My take on the Basques is that they are displaced from Aquitanian Gaul That area had a mix of Basque related actual Aquitaini tribes speaking an ancestor of Basque and Celtic tribes. That makes Aquitania a very likely area where the you could end up with originally Celtic speaking lineages DF27 and L21 adopting the Aquitanian/ Basque ancestral language. The high DF27 among Basques is hard to interpret as it's ubiquitous in Iberia but the fact that L21 in Iberia also peaks among the Basques and is rare elsewhere in Iberia does speak to me of refugees from Atlantic France. The Romans said the Aquitani resembled the Iberians and even that is compatible with the autosomal DNA of the Basques.

R.Rocca
09-29-2017, 11:43 PM
Well France does seem to be under-reported for its own domestic reasons, but since there are many expats who are not under the same restrictions when they list their MDKAs:

19048

You can see the French regions where U106 clusters (no surprise, there). DF19 looks benelux (or, stretched east and west, gerbeneluxish) in its MDKA distribution. Still, the French reporting is unhelpful. I'm not sure what one can conclude about DF27 from that map -- I mean, I think Paris probably had more than one DF27. ;)

We no longer need to rely on FTDNA maps and the many known bias areas for DF27. Solé-Morata released a paper last month with almost 3,000 samples and this is the real distribution of DF27 (which is almost identical to the map I made years ago)...

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/DF27_Sole-Morata.png

razyn
09-30-2017, 04:58 AM
Solé-Morata released a paper last month with almost 3,000 samples and this is the real distribution of DF27 (which is almost identical to the map I made years ago).

The Great Red Spot representing DF27 in NE Iberia, like the one on Jupiter, has been moving during the past few millennia. Its current hotspot isn't where DF27 started. Solé-Morata et al assert, incorrectly, that it is. But we (DF27) started in the same place you (U152) started -- and nor was that in Italy.

Remember when L21, U152 and the newly-discovered DF27 were called the "Big Three" patriarchs of the P312 clan? Locate those three SNP names on this recent chart. They may still be the big three -- if that's where someone has decided to start the haplogroup project -- but they have a lot of uncles, brothers and cousins.

19060

R.Rocca
09-30-2017, 11:05 AM
The Great Red Spot representing DF27 in NE Iberia, like the one on Jupiter, has been moving during the past few millennia. Its current hotspot isn't where DF27 started. Solé-Morata et al assert, incorrectly, that it is. But we (DF27) started in the same place you (U152) started -- and nor was that in Italy.

It's fortunate that I didn't mention where it started then.

Ric
09-30-2017, 12:41 PM
There is no hot, or at least a bit warm, spot in Benelux in this map. :(
????
Can you elaborate on that, Mr. Rocca ?

What razyn suggests, I think, is that a heat map of P312 'diversity of clades', as opposed to frequencies, would look very different and certainly warmer to the East.

Isidro
09-30-2017, 01:29 PM
I suppose you could be correct about the paper being incorrect but there is two things needed as burden of proof,
one is pointing where it originated, at present no one is even close to where that it might be.The other is proof of errors in the papers report and methodology, otherwise it's just your opinion and distaste of their report and what it means to you personally. What it means to me personally is that a Neolithic induced expansion if not time frame like the paper suggests is valid until evidence with no stellar quotation show


otherwise.

The Great Red Spot representing DF27 in NE Iberia, like the one on Jupiter, has been moving during the past few millennia. Its current hotspot isn't where DF27 started. Solé-Morata et al assert, incorrectly, that it is. But we (DF27) started in the same place you (U152) started -- and nor was that in Italy.

19060

rms2
09-30-2017, 03:46 PM
The Great Red Spot representing DF27 in NE Iberia, like the one on Jupiter, has been moving during the past few millennia. Its current hotspot isn't where DF27 started. Solé-Morata et al assert, incorrectly, that it is. But we (DF27) started in the same place you (U152) started -- and nor was that in Italy.

Remember when L21, U152 and the newly-discovered DF27 were called the "Big Three" patriarchs of the P312 clan? Locate those three SNP names on this recent chart. They may still be the big three -- if that's where someone has decided to start the haplogroup project -- but they have a lot of uncles, brothers and cousins.

19060

I agree. It seems to me the methodology that arrived at the conclusion that DF27 arose in NE Iberia is the same sort of methodology that gave us the R1b FC Ice Age Refuge.

How likely is it that DF27 arose anywhere in Iberia, given that Olalde et al found no R1b-M269 in Neolithic Iberia or in early Iberian Bell Beaker? Non-Iberian Bell Beaker was strongly R1b-P312, lacked Iberian autosomal dna, and was strongly Yamnayan in its autosomal profile. When the Olalde et al raw data finally come out, we'll see that some of those non-Iberian Bell Beaker guys were DF27. After all, DF27 has already been found in German Bell Beaker, and there was plenty of his close cousin, U152, in the Olalde et al Bell Beaker results.

Look at the Z40481 section of Alex Williamson's Big Tree. It shows DF27 and his close kin. I'm thinking DF27 did not arise very far from the rest of that group.

19073

My guess is East Central Europe if not the Pontic steppe itself.

R.Rocca
09-30-2017, 05:31 PM
There is no hot, or at least a bit warm, spot in Benelux in this map. :(
????
Can you elaborate on that, Mr. Rocca ?

What razyn suggests, I think, is that a heat map of P312 'diversity of clades', as opposed to frequencies, would look very different and certainly warmer to the East.

For more clarity...

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1217-P312-in-the-Netherlands&p=11453&viewfull=1#post11453

MitchellSince1893
09-30-2017, 05:57 PM
I agree. It seems to me the methodology that arrived at the conclusion that DF27 arose in NE Iberia is the same sort of methodology that gave us the R1b FC Ice Age Refuge.

How likely is it that DF27 arose anywhere in Iberia, given that Olalde et al found no R1b-M269 in Neolithic Iberia or in early Iberian Bell Beaker? Non-Iberian Bell Beaker was strongly R1b-P312, lacked Iberian autosomal dna, and was strongly Yamnayan in its autosomal profile. When the Olalde et al raw data finally come out, we'll see that some of those non-Iberian Bell Beaker guys were DF27. After all, DF27 has already been found in German Bell Beaker, and there was plenty of his close cousin, U152, in the Olalde et al Bell Beaker results.

Look at the Z40481 section of Alex Williamson's Big Tree. It shows DF27 and his close kin. I'm thinking DF27 did not arise very far from the rest of that group.

19073

My guess is East Central Europe if not the Pontic steppe itself.As we know I0806 (2431-2150 BC) from Quedlinburg, Germany is currently the oldest know DF27 sample.
FWIW I went into Jean's ancient dna database and did a search on Bell Beaker, filtering for no later than carbon dates of 2300 BC. This would not include I0806, but it does include samples from nearby sites in N. Germany

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4f/c1/be/4fc1bec8fc920e1ae575b7e95de82b41.png

So we know Bell Beaker was in these areas in 2300 and 2500 BC respectively

rms2
09-30-2017, 06:01 PM
As we know I0806 (2431-2150 BC) from Quedlinburg, Germany is currently the oldest know DF27 sample.
FWIW I went into Jean's ancient dna database and did a search on Bell Beaker, filtering for no later than carbon dates of 2300 BC. This would not include I0806, but it does include samples from nearby sites in N. Germany

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4f/c1/be/4fc1bec8fc920e1ae575b7e95de82b41.png

So we know Bell Beaker was in these areas in 2300 and 2500 BC respectively

And we know the one site on your map in Iberia (Paris Street, Cerdanyola) had no R1b-M269 or steppe dna.

MitchellSince1893
09-30-2017, 06:11 PM
And we know the one site on your map in Iberia (Paris Street, Cerdanyola) had no R1b-M269 or steppe dna.

Never said it was an R1b/Steppe ancestry Bell Beaker map. Only said Bell Beaker

razyn
09-30-2017, 06:20 PM
It's fortunate that I didn't mention where it started then.

True, but you cited a paper that does make that claim (which is not based on the evidence it presents, much less that other recent papers have presented); and you noted that its map agrees with your own. As if that were a good thing.

I'm just trying yet again to dissociate heat maps from origin theories, and it is a Sisyphean task.

@Isidro, please note that I do not have a dog in your fight, or any other European ethnic clashes. I am from Tennessee and do not think of Spain, Germany, England, or the Steppes of Central Asia as "home." I have ancestry from many places, have visited some but not all of them, and still think I'm back home when I return to hilly parts of the southeastern USA. People keep attributing anti-Iberian bias to me -- or in Gioiello's case, anti-Italian -- because I keep disagreeing with their own. What I disagree with is their interpretation of the evidence; but in the long run we all are looking at the same evidence.

Ric
09-30-2017, 06:42 PM
For more clarity...

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1217-P312-in-the-Netherlands&p=11453&viewfull=1#post11453

The numbers in the link do not really support a df27 warm spot in the Netherlands. Even if we only consider P312, the df27 clade does not make 1/3 of P312.
Ok we cannot talk about a hot spot, a warmish spot is a better wording but some maps show it, some don't, this is confusing. :noidea:

MitchellSince1893
09-30-2017, 07:57 PM
Never said it was an R1b/Steppe ancestry Bell Beaker map. Only said Bell Beaker

But here is the currently known ancient P312 nonetheless...with interpolation areas between points added. Understand that I'm not implying P312 originated in SE Germany at Osterhofen. I'm simply identifying the currently known data points.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3e/ff/08/3eff08bbd1d681da82084f06d413a200.png

rms2
09-30-2017, 08:24 PM
Never said it was an R1b/Steppe ancestry Bell Beaker map. Only said Bell Beaker

Sorry if I gave the impression I was taking issue with your map. I wasn't, and I even gave you a "thanks" for that post. I just wanted to point out that Cerdanyola had no R1b-M269 or steppe dna, given the topic being discussed in this thread.

MitchellSince1893
09-30-2017, 08:32 PM
Damnit Rich, I was looking forward to one of our multi-page knock down drag out discussions and you done and ruined it. :beerchug:

On a more serious note, this 3000 - 2500 BC "black hole" as it relates to P312's origin, Bell Beaker's origin, etc. is really getting annoying.

Isidro
09-30-2017, 09:55 PM
Fair enough, I will take your word for it not having a dog in my fight, I would call it opinion, I am also an American naturalized, this is also my home, Michigan in particular where I have lived most of my life, so I guess the guessing goes both ways when you make a distinction between me and you assuming that I have a dog in a fight.
Personally my roots are too regional in Europe and Spain, more particularly to a Catalan speaking fringe of Aragon, beyond that it all becomes hazy and my allegiance is with the United States of America. So if you or anyone wants to catalog me as a Spaniard, Catalan, Basque or whatever nationalistic tag they wish to staple on me they are right off target.
I do have an opinion which I think I have stated clearly over time but it seems like is not the majority of people in this blog that make theirs known, so be it, at the end only the truth will prevail.



@Isidro, please note that I do not have a dog in your fight, or any other European ethnic clashes. I am from Tennessee and do not think of Spain, Germany, England, or the Steppes of Central Asia as "home." I have ancestry from many places, have visited some but not all of them, and still think I'm back home when I return to hilly parts of the southeastern USA. People keep attributing anti-Iberian bias to me -- or in Gioiello's case, anti-Italian -- because I keep disagreeing with their own. What I disagree with is their interpretation of the evidence; but in the long run we all are looking at the same evidence.

Ric
10-01-2017, 12:20 AM
yep, it is said, it is not about the beginning nor the end, it is about the journey.

Although if we could agree of the first milestone of the df27 journey, it'd be great too.

rms2
10-01-2017, 01:21 AM
yep, it is said, it is not about the beginning nor the end, it is about the journey.

Although if we could agree of the first milestone of the df27 journey, it'd be great too.

I think it is pretty obvious now that P312 and all its subclades are of eastern, steppe origin. Modern distribution is western European, and that confuses some people, even scientists. They seem never to have learned that at the end of the Neolithic Period and the start of the Bronze Age people arrived from the steppe who brought Indo-European languages and culture to Old Europe.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-01-2017, 11:28 AM
It's not really arbitrary when you have M269+ data around 3500 BC in Ukraine/Russia and this is isn't too far from the age of the mutation based on statistical methods. In addition, data from precursor cultures that turn up xM269.

Is that a new sample find for 3500 BC M269+ , or an approximation ?

Isidro
10-01-2017, 12:08 PM
As exciting and breakthrough ancient DNA might be finding samples of mutations like M269 in Ukraine, and it's subclades like U152 and DF27, in Western Europe, it is anecdotal until a more complex study that can pass minimum levels of scrutiny and power of deduction that can go beyond saying we just happened to stumble the origin of said mutations or even a few generations off. This is 101 folks, don't kid yourselves.

Ric
10-01-2017, 12:35 PM
I think it is pretty obvious now that P312 and all its subclades are of eastern, steppe origin. Modern distribution is western European, and that confuses some people, even scientists. They seem never to have learned that at the end of the Neolithic Period and the start of the Bronze Age people arrived from the steppe who brought Indo-European languages and culture to Old Europe.
"Obvious" is a word that should be banned from science. But yes, the evidences are now strongly in favor of an Eastern origin of the P312 subclades, for all the reasons given above.
Regarding the map above, we can see that P312 leaked to England from the channel near Calais at the narrowest point. Is it a fact or or a speculation ?

Perhaps some here are familiar with the navigation in the Atlantic currents and winds, so sailing North From the Basque country, what is the most likely point to land on the British Iles. Would you stop navigating near the French coast and go straight North from Brest in Brittany and land in Plymouth, or somewhere in the South West coast of England ? or are the currents more favorable to a coastal navigation near the French coast to end near the South East tip of England 'as if' you just crossed from Calais ?

razyn
10-01-2017, 02:09 PM
Larmuseau, M. H. D. et al. Recent Radiation within Y-chromosomal Haplogroup R-M269 Resulted in High Y-STR Haplotype Resemblance. Ann. Hum. Genet. 78, 92–103 (2014).
Might be talking about the subclades radiating away from a place of origin, for all I know. (Rather than having one's lunch while sitting on a radioactive rock.) As previously noted, it's best to read the paper first.

OK, I was the subject of a burst of excessive enthusiasm. The referenced paper's title would more appropriately have begun "Recent Irradiation," had it referred to my pet theory about why there are long strings of mutations at the same (as far as we can determine by testing the living population) phylogenetic level. But that topic (possible early Bronze Age exposure to unusually high background radiation, either from terrestrial or from cosmic sources) does not arise in this Larmuseau et al paper. I'll paste in a passage from its relevant subsection, Haplotype Resemblance as Result of Recent Radiation(s), p. 99 of the cited publication:


The Y-chromosomal haplogroup R-M269 is carried by approximately 110 million European men, increasing in frequency from the east (12% in Eastern Turkey) to the west (85% in Ireland; Myres et al., 2011). The geographic distribution of R-M269 is regarded as the result of a surfing effect, whereby the mutant arose in the wave of a geographically fast expanding population, having an advantage over mutants arising behind the expansion front not due to natural selection but due to random genetic drift (Klopfstein et al., 2006; Chiaroni et al., 2009; Slatkin & Excoffier, 2012; Swaegers et al., 2013). Consistent with our Y-STR haplotype observations, recent next-generation sequencing (NGS) data reveal a huge polytomy and ramification pattern in the phylogenetic tree of R-M269, suggesting indeed the rapid birth of numerous subhaplogroups (Rocca et al., 2012; Francalacci et al., 2013; Wei et al., 2013). Nevertheless, the rapid development of subhaplogroups within R- M269 might be the result of only one main expansion event or of a combination of several (local) expansion processes.

Since rashly misinterpreting the intent of this title a few days ago, I've been picking on Rich Rocca for his admiration of heat maps. And I may do that again, sometime; but it has not escaped my attention that a lot of geneticists lately (including Larmuseau, in the present example) cite Rocca's 2012 paper. I'm fairly sure that none so far have felt any need to cite me. So, there's that.

rms2
10-01-2017, 02:20 PM
"Obvious" is a word that should be banned from science . . .

It's obvious that banned is a word that should be banned from science. :P

Some things are obvious.

rms2
10-01-2017, 02:47 PM
. . .
Regarding the map above, we can see that P312 leaked to England from the channel near Calais at the narrowest point. Is it a fact or or a speculation ?

My impression from what is written in Olalde et al is that P312 came to Britain in substantial numbers with the Bell Beaker people, whose closest autosomal neighbors were the Dutch Bell Beaker people. Before the arrival of Bell Beaker, there was no P312 in Britain.

From the Olalde et al paper, page 7:



Among the different continental Beaker Complex groups analysed in our dataset, individuals from Oostwoud (Province of Noord-Holland, The Netherlands) are the most closely related to the great majority of the Beaker Complex individuals from southern Britain (n=14). They had almost identical Steppe ancestry proportions (Fig. 2a), the highest shared genetic drift (Extended Data Fig. 4b) and were symmetrically related to other ancient populations using f4- statistics (Extended Data Fig. 4a), showing that they are consistent with being derived from the same ancestral population without additional mixture into either group.


From Olalde et al, page 3:



Beginning with the Beaker period, and continuing through the Bronze Age, all British individuals harboured high proportions of Steppe ancestry and were genetically closely related to Beaker-associated individuals from the Lower Rhine area. We use these observations to show that the spread of the Beaker Complex to Britain was mediated by migration from the continent that replaced >90% of Britain’s Neolithic gene pool within a few hundred years, continuing the process that brought Steppe ancestry into central and northern Europe 400 years earlier.




Perhaps some here are familiar with the navigation in the Atlantic currents and winds, so sailing North From the Basque country, what is the most likely point to land on the British Iles. Would you stop navigating near the French coast and go straight North from Brest in Brittany and land in Plymouth, or somewhere in the South West coast of England ? or are the currents more favorable to a coastal navigation near the French coast to end near the South East tip of England 'as if' you just crossed from Calais ?

Why does that matter?

MitchellSince1893
10-01-2017, 03:08 PM
Regarding the map above, we can see that P312 leaked to England from the channel near Calais at the narrowest point. Is it a fact or or a speculation ?

Perhaps some here are familiar with the navigation in the Atlantic currents and winds, so sailing North From the Basque country, what is the most likely point to land on the British Iles. Would you stop navigating near the French coast and go straight North from Brest in Brittany and land in Plymouth, or somewhere in the South West coast of England ? or are the currents more favorable to a coastal navigation near the French coast to end near the South East tip of England 'as if' you just crossed from Calais ?

As I indicated it's interpolation between points, or as you put it speculation, based on where we find U152 on the continent and other data points from the Amesbury Archer and the Olade paper. I speculate U152 may have moved down the Rhine from known locations in Southern Germany to the N Sea and eventually over to England from a nearby location. It wasn't meant to be precise, just a best guess based on available data

including what rms2 said here from the Olade et al paper noting the genetic similarity between ancient Bell Beaker in Britain and Netherlands
My impression from what is written in Olalde et al is that P312 came to Britain in substantial numbers with the Bell Beaker people, whose closest autosomal neighbors were the Dutch Bell Beaker people...From the Olalde et al paper, page 7:

Actual quote from the paper

Among the different continental Beaker Complex groups analysed in our dataset, individuals from Oostwoud (Province of Noord-Holland, The Netherlands) are the most closely related to the great majority of the Beaker Complex individuals from southern Britain (n=14).

And based on isotopic data indicating the Amesbury Archer may have originated near the Alps, which adds weight to a down the Rhine to the North Sea route

rms2
10-01-2017, 03:57 PM
MitchellSince1893,

I notice you used an ellipsis when you quoted me above to cut out this part of what I wrote:



Before the arrival of Bell Beaker, there was no P312 in Britain.


Just trying to save space, or do you think there was P312 in Britain before Bell Beaker?

MitchellSince1893
10-01-2017, 04:08 PM
MitchellSince1893,

I notice you used an ellipsis when you quoted me above to cut out this part of what I wrote:



Just trying to save space, or do you think there was P312 in Britain before Bell Beaker?

Honestly, when I read "P312", my mind read "L21", and I didn't want to encourage one of those tangential debates on which side of the English Channel L21 was born (tangential to this thread) ...but now that I read it correctly as "P312", I should have just left it in.

rms2
10-01-2017, 04:10 PM
Honestly, when I read "P312", my mind read "L21", and I didn't want to encourage one of those tangential debates on which side of the English Channel L21 was born (tangential to this thread) ...but now that I read it correctly as "P312", I should have just left it in.

Oh, okay. I'm not even really tempted to turn a DF27 thread toward a discussion of L21. Like many others here, I'm waiting for the Olalde et al data to reveal which of those P312* BB samples are DF27+.

razyn
10-01-2017, 05:26 PM
Like many others here, I'm waiting for the Olalde et al data to reveal which of those P312* BB samples are DF27+.
And some aDNA sampling from east of the Carpathians, but west of the Volga, might also help. That's not going to be resolved by deeper analysis of the aDNA samples that Olalde et al have already sequenced. But it needs to be done.

rms2
10-01-2017, 05:35 PM
And some aDNA sampling from east of the Carpathians, but west of the Volga, might also help. That's not going to be resolved by deeper analysis of the aDNA samples that Olalde et al have already sequenced. But it needs to be done.

I agree. I would really like to see a big behemoth Indo-European paper that includes hundreds if not thousands of samples from the actual Pontic steppe, including cultures like Mikhailovka-Kemi Oba, and from the Carpathian Basin and the Tisza River valley. It would be nice if it included some samples from all or most of the regional variants of Corded Ware, as well, including Single Grave Protruding Foot Beaker.

Isidro
10-01-2017, 06:12 PM
My ideal testing targets would be going back in time 500-1000-1500 years ago etc, not only would samples be more accessible but it's historical context, shooting for possible areas of founder effects it's like playing roulette with inconclusive results having said that the more areas and times covered the better, question of priorities is going backwards for sure

MitchellSince1893
10-01-2017, 08:07 PM
...I think that many Df27 French are actually from the Benelux but they don't dig deep enough in their ancestry to know it. Genealogy cannot help when your ancestor came from Benelux 1000 years ago or more...

I did find in a study I did of R1b in FTDNA projects a couple of months ago that DF27 in BENELUX is above the continental average for Europe (DF27 region average of 14.15% of R1b)
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11364-FTDNA-R1b-Project-Maps&p=266907&viewfull=1#post266907
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11364-FTDNA-R1b-Project-Maps&p=268530&viewfull=1#post268530

DF27 Percentage of R1b
Spain: 60%
Portugal: 54%
France: 28%
Belgium&Luxembourg: 16%
Netherlands: 14%
England: 13%
Poland: 13%
Romania/Moldova/Ukraine: 13%
Northern Ireland: 12%
Germany: 11%
Switzerland: 11%
Hungary/Slovakia: 11%
Sweden: 10%
Finland: 10%
Italy: 10%
Wales:9%
Denmark: 9%
Belarus & Baltic States: 9%
Scotland: 7%
Norway: 6%
Austria/Czech Rep./Slovenia: 6%
Russia: 4%
Caucasia: 2%
Balkans/Turkey/Cyprus: <1%

rms2
10-01-2017, 10:12 PM
Just as an aside, I really prefer percentages of the total y-dna rather than percentages of R1b. I like to see how significant a y haplogroup is when compared to the rest of the male population. Percentages of R1b can be misleading.

Just my personal preference.

Probably best to see both.

MitchellSince1893
10-01-2017, 11:27 PM
Just as an aside, I really prefer percentages of the total y-dna rather than percentages of R1b. I like to see how significant a y haplogroup is when compared to the rest of the male population. Percentages of R1b can be misleading.

Just my personal preference.
.
Probably best to see both.
You're welcome to do that study...too much work for me.

ehjelt
10-02-2017, 06:19 AM
rms2 & MitchelSince1893
"Just as an aside, I really prefer percentages of the total y-dna rather than percentages of R1b. I like to see how significant a y haplogroup is when compared to the rest of the male population. Percentages of R1b can be misleading."

You need not do it by yourself. Ask. Here are the figures from Finland: R1b = 3,7% of male population, 10% DF27. So DF27 is 0,37% of male population.

ArmandoR1b
10-02-2017, 11:45 AM
Just as an aside, I really prefer percentages of the total y-dna rather than percentages of R1b. I like to see how significant a y haplogroup is when compared to the rest of the male population. Percentages of R1b can be misleading.

Just my personal preference.

It's my personal preference too and that is something that I have been doing with YFull data and the haplogroups of R1b, R1a, I1, I2, N, Q, E, G, J1, J2, C, and T every time there is a new YFull tree although the YTree still has too few kits outside of the British Isles. If I missed a haplogroup that should be in Europe in the past 10,000 years and not from immigration in the past 500 years I will add it once I am informed of it. I have purposely left out H and F.

Netherlands only has 53 kits and Belgium only has 23 kits and Luxembourg has 1 out of R1b, R1a, I1, I2, N, Q, E, G, J1, J2, C, and T. The single Luxembourg kit is I1. So there isn't even 100 total for Benelux. There needs to be about 500-1,000 kits at YFull from each region so that the 1% subclades appear sufficiently often. I don't use the data from the FTDNA projects because the pages take way too long to load and there are too many different projects. YFull has them listed by haplogroup in a single page. Even Alex Williamson's BigTree isn't as user friendly as YFull although I do pull data from there too for other stats. Even with the low number of kits for some regions the general picture is very clear for modern distributions. The YFull data is also very close the Busby et al. table.

Netherlands has 19/53 that are R1b. (35.8%)
Belgium has 10/23 that are R1b. (43.5%)

Netherlands has 5/53 that are DF27 (9.43%)
Belgium has 2/23 that are DF27 (8.7%)

Here is a table of the countries and regions that I pulled data for listed in order by frequency.



Region
Total Kits
Total R1b
Total DF27
% DF27


Portugal
96
63
44
45.83


Spain
109
67
45
41.28


Latin America
245
98
66
26.94


France
73
37
12
16.44


England
402
193
42
10.45


Netherlands
53
19
5
9.43


Wales
23
14
2
8.70


Belgium
23
10
2
8.70


Belarus
48
11
4
8.33


Czech Republic
37
9
3
8.11


U.K.
427
189
32
7.49


Scotland
292
163
21
7.19


Denmark
32
10
2
6.25


Switzerland
33
8
2
6.06


Ukraine
85
16
5
5.88


Italy
378
126
21
5.56


Germany
242
80
13
5.37


Ireland
345
239
18
5.22


Slovakia
22
2
1
4.55


Sweden
580
106
11
1.90


Poland
220
31
3
1.36


Finland
469
31
4
0.85


Croatia
10
0
0
0


Hungary
25
2
0
0


Russia
306
16
0
0


Slovenia
3
0
0
0


Norway
196
32
0
0


Luxembourg
1
0
0
0

ArmandoR1b
10-02-2017, 12:12 PM
rms2 & MitchelSince1893
"Just as an aside, I really prefer percentages of the total y-dna rather than percentages of R1b. I like to see how significant a y haplogroup is when compared to the rest of the male population. Percentages of R1b can be misleading."

You need not do it by yourself. Ask. Here are the figures from Finland: R1b = 3,7% of male population, 10% DF27. So DF27 is 0,37% of male population.

What is the source for the percentage of R1b in Finland?

YFull has 469 kits from Finland. 31 are R1b (6.6%) 4 are DF27 (0.85%) The difference isn't statistically large. I think that most stats have a margin of error of about 3%. So the YFull numbers are pretty good.

TigerMW
10-02-2017, 01:18 PM
Just as an aside, I really prefer percentages of the total y-dna rather than percentages of R1b. I like to see how significant a y haplogroup is when compared to the rest of the male population. Percentages of R1b can be misleading.

Just my personal preference.

Probably best to see both.
Agreed it is best to see both. However, I would say that percentages of the total population can also be misleading. From an origins standpoint, modern day population analysis can oftentimes be misleading, period.

I think percentages of R1b subclades to R1b as the total are most useful in looking at diversity. However, if the numbers are very low and/or the survey is not representative it is a problem anyway and in any case.

MitchellSince1893
10-02-2017, 02:13 PM
It's my personal preference too and that is something that I have been doing with YFull data and the haplogroups of R1b, R1a, I1, I2, N, Q, E, G, J1, J2, C, and T every time there is a new YFull tree although the YTree still has too few kits outside of the British Isles. If I missed a haplogroup that should be in Europe in the past 10,000 years and not from immigration in the past 500 years I will add it once I am informed of it. I have purposely left out H and F.

Netherlands only has 53 kits and Belgium only has 23 kits and Luxembourg has 1 out of R1b, R1a, I1, I2, N, Q, E, G, J1, J2, C, and T. The single Luxembourg kit is I1. So there isn't even 100 total for Benelux. There needs to be about 500-1,000 kits at YFull from each region so that the 1% subclades appear sufficiently often. I don't use the data from the FTDNA projects because the pages take way too long to load and there are too many different projects. YFull has them listed by haplogroup in a single page. Even Alex Williamson's BigTree isn't as user friendly as YFull although I do pull data from there too for other stats. Even with the low number of kits for some regions the general picture is very clear for modern distributions. The YFull data is also very close the Busby et al...

I don't want to create extra work for you but if you already have it available could you post similar U152 numbers here?
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?36-R1b-U152-Updates-News/page30

Thanks

MitchellSince1893
10-02-2017, 02:45 PM
Agreed it is best to see both. However, I would say that percentages of the total population can also be misleading. From an origins standpoint, modern day population analysis can oftentimes be misleading, period.

I think percentages of R1b subclades to R1b as the total are most useful in looking at diversity. However, if the numbers are very low and/or the survey is not representative it is a problem anyway and in any case.

As you would expect, in the FTDNA data you definitely see an southeast/northwest cline in the U106/P312 vs R1b other percentages

Non P312/U106 R1b percentages of all R1b:
Caucasia: 96%
Turkey/Cyprus: 82%
Balkans: 67%
Russia: 44%
Romania/Moldova/Ukraine: 28%
Italy: 21%
Poland: 17%
Baltics/Belarus: 16%
Hungary/Slovakia: 15%
Germany: 7%
Switzerland 7%
Denmark 6%
BENELUX: 5%
France, Iberia, Scandinavia, UK & Ireland are all below 5%.

Isidro
10-02-2017, 02:53 PM
It's interesting to see the drop between Iberian countries and South America for DF27.

South America 98% R1b to Iberia's 44.5% it's staggering, assuming most S. American are descendants from Iberia might be pointing out to DF27 being a very recent founding effect, within the past 500 years.




Here is a table of the countries and regions that I pulled data for listed in order by frequency.



Region
Total Kits
Total R1b
Total DF27
% DF27


Portugal
96
63
44
45.8


Spain
109
67
45
41.2


Latin America
245
98
66
26.9


France
73
37
12
16.4


England
402
193
42
10.4


Netherlands
53
19
5
9.43


Wales
23
14
2
8.69


Belgium
23
10
2
8.69


Belarus
48
11
4
8.33


Czech Republic
37
9
3
8.1


U.K.
427
189
32
7.49


Scotland
292
163
21
7.19


Denmark
32
10
2
6.25


Ukraine
85
16
5
5.88


Italy
378
126
21
5.55


Germany
242
80
13
5.37


Ireland
345
239
18
5.21


Slovakia
22
2
1
4.54


Sweden
580
106
11
1.89


Poland
220
31
3
1.36


Croatia
10
0
0
0


Hungary
25
2
0
0


Russia
306
16
0
0


Slovenia
3
0
0
0


Norway
196
32
0
0

ArmandoR1b
10-02-2017, 03:08 PM
It's interesting to see the drop between Iberian countries and South America for DF27.

South America 98% R1b to Iberia's 44.5% it's staggering, assuming most S. American are descendants from Iberia might be pointing out to DF27 being a very recent founding effect, within the past 500 years.

1.That 98 is not a percentage. It's a total number of kits. Each column has a header. What you refer to 98% is actually 98 kits that are R1b. If you are using a phone it might not be displayed correctly.

2. It's not just South America. It's all of Latin America including Mexico which is in North America. It also includes El Salvador which is in Central America.

3. The percentage drop from Spain's 41.2% to Latin America's 26.9% is 14.3%. The last column is the one with the percentage of DF27 out of R1b, R1a, I1, I2, N, Q, E, G, J1, J2, C, and T.

Isidro
10-02-2017, 04:27 PM
Ah, big difference, thanks ArmandoR1b.

ehjelt
10-03-2017, 08:36 AM
What is the source for the percentage of R1b in Finland?


Lappalainen−Koivumäki−Salmela−Huoponen−Sistonen−Sa vontaus−Lahermo
”Regional differences among the Finns: A Y-chromosomal perspective” (Gene 2006). R1b is 20 out of 550 studied men = 3,7%. I don't think this kind of figures have changed in ten years.

I think the number of kits at YFull and Alex are useless fort the purpose here. For example I follow closely subclade DF27>S19290 and with little effort found 33 kits of S19290 from here end there (kits of seemengly same families exluded). YFull includes only 11 and Alex 16 kits of S19290. Non-anglo-americans do very little analysis elswhere than at the laboratories they use.

ArmandoR1b
10-03-2017, 03:25 PM
Lappalainen−Koivumäki−Salmela−Huoponen−Sistonen−Sa vontaus−Lahermo
”Regional differences among the Finns: A Y-chromosomal perspective” (Gene 2006). R1b is 20 out of 550 studied men = 3,7%. I don't think this kind of figures have changed in ten years.
So it is also the main source that Maciamo uses for http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml since he cites it in the sources at http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#Sources It can be read here (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7137375_Regional_Differences_among_the_Finns_A_Y-Chromosomal_Perspective). Too bad they weren't sequenced for DF27 also.

We might as well use the percentages for all countries that Eupedia has for R1b. I don't have a problem with that but we can use other data sources such as YFull, and at times the FTDNA projects, to compare. I'll try to make a table later comparing Eupedia vs YFull. In the portion below is one example using the Finland project.



I think the number of kits at YFull and Alex are useless fort the purpose here. For example I follow closely subclade DF27>S19290 and with little effort found 33 kits of S19290 from here end there (kits of seemengly same families exluded). YFull includes only 11 and Alex 16 kits of S19290. Non-anglo-americans do very little analysis elswhere than at the laboratories they use.

I don't agree that they are useless because there should also be proportionally less of all of the other haplogroups and subclades at YFull in a general sense. I found that to be the case once I pulled more numbers.

For instance, YFull is showing DF27/R1b in Finland to be 4/31 which is 12.9%. That is within 3% of the 10% that MitchellSince1893 has with the data he extracted from the FTDNA projects. So it is within an acceptable margin of error.

I also figured out a workaround for pulling data from the FTDNA projects. The Finland DNA project has 2,682 people that have Finland in the country column. 64.24% are N compared to 61.5% at Eupedia. So the percentage between the FTDNA project and Eupedia is within 3%. YFull has 276/469 which is 58.8% N in Finland. That is also within 3% of Eupedia. 6% from the FTDNA project but for an overall picture it still isn't far off. However, the study that you cited has N as 58.58%. So YFull in this case is the closest to that study.

So now let's look at S19290 vs DF27 in the FTDNA project and at YFull. I excluded everyone in the Ua group and below.

FTDNA S19290/DF27 is 34/1726 = 1.97%
YFull S19290/DF27 is 15/533 = 2.81%

So the FTDNA project and YFull are very close, relatively speaking, for S19290 as a percentage of DF27.

TigerMW
10-03-2017, 03:36 PM
As far as Scandinavia goes, I recommend using the Old Norway Project. This is an academic project, not an FTDNA project. You can probably find the presentation out on the web somewhere.

Here is their summary map of frequency by different region of Scandinavia.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/01pk7o7ymy7h627/Old%20Norway%20Project%20y%20Hg%20map.jpg?dl=0

Please look at the break-out (smaller) circles of R1b. M167 (SRY2627) is light gray in the smaller circles. P312 undifferentiated is red. This is critical and I wish he has a better breakdown as red is quite significant. It is some combination of DF27xSRY2627, DF19, DF99, L238. My guess is that DF27 is the majority of the red.

Look at SRY2627, the light gray. It is significant in Blekinge and Skaraborg. Amazing for what once was called an "Iberian subclade".

Arch
10-11-2017, 01:53 AM
I would not be surprised one bit that SRY2627+ arose during the Nordic Bronze Age. Time to give up my falcata for a hammer ax. My closest matches are showing Southern Sweden.

Arch
10-11-2017, 01:59 AM
Axel Ivar
Skoglund
Grönahög (P)
1879
(5)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Bengt
Skoerje, Sweden (K)
1600?
(11)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Bengt
Nilsson
Ulfsmåla, Tingsryd, Sweden (K)
1725
(7)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Carl
Persson
Hjälmseryd (F)
1855
(2)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Carl Gustaf
Skoglund
Grönahög (P)
1815
(1)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Carl Victor
Skoglund
Ljusnarsberg (T)
1853
(2)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Elis Georg Abraham
Skoglund
Hössna (P)
1897
(5)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Erik Gabriel
Skoglund
Hössna (P)
1891
(5)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Hakan
Persson
Oljehult, Belganet, Sweden (K)
1832
(4)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Hakan
Trulsson
Ulfsmåla, Tingsryd, Sweden (K)
1658
(9)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Herbert
Persson
Hylletofta (F)
1911
(1)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Johan Axel
Skoglund
Grönahög (P)
1857
(4)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Johan Petter
Skoglund
Grönahög (P)
1821
(3)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Johan Torsten Karl
Skoglund
Hössna (P)
1886
(5)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Johannes
Skoglund
Grönahög (P)
1783
(2)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Jonas
Andersson
Grönahög? (P)
1744
(1)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Jonas
Skoglund
Grönahög (P)
1806
(1)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Josef
Jonasson
Grönahög (P)
1814
(3)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Magni
Persson
Brakne-Hoby, Sweden (K)
1897
(2)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Nils
Johansson
Älmesåkra, Bringetofta, (F)
1742
(5)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Nils
Hakansson
Skoeje, Sweden (K)
1681
(8)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Olof
Nilsson
Älmesåkra, Bringetofta, (F)
1695
(6)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Per
Hakansson
Askaremala, Belganet, Oljehult, Sweden (K)
1865
(3)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Per
Svensson
Oljehult, Sweden (K)
1803
(5)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Per August
Svensson
Hjälmseryd (F)
1825
(3)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Sven
Bengtsson
Ulfsmala, Backaryd, Sweden (K)
1772
(6)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Sven
Nilsson
Älmesåkra, Bringetofta, (F)
1790
(4)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Sven
Skoglund
Grönahög (P)
1773
(0)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Truls
Bengtsson
Skoerje, Sweden (K)
1630
(10)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

ADW_1981
10-11-2017, 01:40 PM
Axel Ivar
Skoglund
Grönahög (P)
1879
(5)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Bengt
Skoerje, Sweden (K)
1600?
(11)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Bengt
Nilsson
Ulfsmåla, Tingsryd, Sweden (K)
1725
(7)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Carl
Persson
Hjälmseryd (F)
1855
(2)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Carl Gustaf
Skoglund
Grönahög (P)
1815
(1)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Carl Victor
Skoglund
Ljusnarsberg (T)
1853
(2)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Elis Georg Abraham
Skoglund
Hössna (P)
1897
(5)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Erik Gabriel
Skoglund
Hössna (P)
1891
(5)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Hakan
Persson
Oljehult, Belganet, Sweden (K)
1832
(4)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Hakan
Trulsson
Ulfsmåla, Tingsryd, Sweden (K)
1658
(9)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Herbert
Persson
Hylletofta (F)
1911
(1)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Johan Axel
Skoglund
Grönahög (P)
1857
(4)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Johan Petter
Skoglund
Grönahög (P)
1821
(3)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Johan Torsten Karl
Skoglund
Hössna (P)
1886
(5)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Johannes
Skoglund
Grönahög (P)
1783
(2)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Jonas
Andersson
Grönahög? (P)
1744
(1)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Jonas
Skoglund
Grönahög (P)
1806
(1)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Josef
Jonasson
Grönahög (P)
1814
(3)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Magni
Persson
Brakne-Hoby, Sweden (K)
1897
(2)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Nils
Johansson
Älmesåkra, Bringetofta, (F)
1742
(5)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Nils
Hakansson
Skoeje, Sweden (K)
1681
(8)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Olof
Nilsson
Älmesåkra, Bringetofta, (F)
1695
(6)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Per
Hakansson
Askaremala, Belganet, Oljehult, Sweden (K)
1865
(3)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Per
Svensson
Oljehult, Sweden (K)
1803
(5)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Per August
Svensson
Hjälmseryd (F)
1825
(3)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Sven
Bengtsson
Ulfsmala, Backaryd, Sweden (K)
1772
(6)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Sven
Nilsson
Älmesåkra, Bringetofta, (F)
1790
(4)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Sven
Skoglund
Grönahög (P)
1773
(0)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627

Truls
Bengtsson
Skoerje, Sweden (K)
1630
(10)
Y: R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b1a1
SRY2627+ P31...

Many of the Nordic metals came from the SW, such as Iberia and Sardinia. So a reflux movement from the south to north direction for Z196+ related branches wouldn't surprise me. You can find a similar pattern with Z295+ and S21184+, although the latter is even more sparse in Iberia.

curiousII
01-03-2018, 07:16 PM
There's a new post of the FTDNA DF27's project that links to this Facebook post: http://haplogroup.org/sources/characterization-of-the-iberian-y-chromosome-haplogroup-r-df27-in-northern-spain/

The first sentence: "The European paternal lineage R-DF27 has been proposed as a haplogroup of Iberian origin due to its maximum frequencies in the Iberian Peninsula."

Really? This is getting posted on social media? I know that you people have already seen and discussed this, but the "science" behind deducing the point-of-origins based on present, modern-day frequency, is worthy of attention now?

I'll stop there, no need to expound on the obvious. But there isn't a response to this yet on Family Tree. Is no one worried that eventually this may well be taken as fact?

TigerMW
01-03-2018, 08:05 PM
It looks like she wants to host all haplogroups / all Y DNA at the site.

"Announcing the Y-DNA – Applied Genealogy & Paternal Origins Facebook Group"

"DISCLAIMER

The opinions expressed on this site are strictly those of the site owner and author. They may or may not be shared with any given company or person mentioned either through posts or affiliateships.

Some of the links on this site are affiliate links. That means I may get a small amount of the money if you buy something after clicking on a link. All such money earned goes to support the Y-DNA Q-M242 Project"

"Copyright 2013 - 2017 Rebekah A. Canada "

curiousII
01-06-2018, 04:03 PM
Thanks, Mike. I'm sure you people have been following the new posts on the Family Tree DF27 forum. For someone like me who's not as fluent in fossil discoveries as you are, I can only hope that when DF27's origins are finally plotted, it's from factual discoveries rather than mob yell. For some reason it appears that those who wish the Iberian beginnings are far more vocal than those who write the Quedlinburg/Augsburg belief.

Education uses facts and discoveries in its textbooks, you attend schools to learn truth. For some reason the Iberian concept of Iberia DF27's being homeground doesn't have that ring to it yet. Of course if science and fossil discoveries support it, that's it. But if you stock a fish pond with trout it doesn't mean that those fish were native to that body of water.

razyn
01-06-2018, 05:51 PM
Thanks, Mike. I'm sure you people have been following the new posts on the Family Tree DF27 forum.
Somehow I doubt it. Assuming you mean the "Activity Feed" in the DF27 project, only people who are members of that project (and signed in) can even see it. Mike is, of course, not only a member but an admin, in fact the one who set up the project in 2013. But some of the people who are most interested in the topic of this thread are U152, or are female, or otherwise ineligible for membership in the referenced project.

Anyhow the broader genetic genealogy community might be interested in something Iñigo Olalde posted about Dec. 24, on a DF27 thread* at 23andMe:


@Armando @razyn
I also enjoy genetic genealogy very much so I am happy that the data can be useful beyond our paper.

The paper should come out within a month and will have more than twice the number of new samples as compared to the pre-print version.

If that timetable is met, the long-awaited lifting of the embargo on the BAM files of their aDNA samples should be imminent. And that should provide a good many new pointers to things like the early subdivision and dispersal of clades below ZZ11, including U152 and DF27, but perhaps also dead-ends we don't recognize (if they aren't present in today's population).

But that won't silence the voices of people who had made up their minds about the origins of the Basques, and the distant prehistory of Iberia, long before DNA became useful for testing hypotheses.

* https://www.23andmeforums.com/discussion/7809/df27-needs-more-testers-for-the-big-y-and-y111/p2

Ric
01-06-2018, 07:45 PM
the long-awaited lifting of the embargo on the BAM files of their aDNA samples should be imminent. And that should provide a good many new pointers to things like the early subdivision and dispersal of clades below ZZ11, including U152 and DF27, but perhaps also dead-ends we don't recognize (if they aren't present in today's population)
Hopefully I0806 will fit within one known subclade of df27, but even if he doesn't, I think it would be nice to put him in the df27 group, in his own branch if necessary, even if you have to fake his STR values.

razyn
01-06-2018, 07:53 PM
I think it would be nice to put him in the df27 group, in his own branch if necessary, even if you have to fake his STR values.
He wasn't tested at FTDNA, so he can't be put in a group of any FTDNA project. However, Rich Rocca was able to fake something (having to do with the available number of reads, I think he just added zeroes to make the number look big to a computer) and get him into GedMatch. I don't have his GedMatch ID handy, but it enables folks who are that way inclined to use various GedMatch tools on the autosomal DNA of ancient samples, including I0806.

rms2
01-06-2018, 08:07 PM
Re post #584 above: I am very impressed with Dr. Olalde. I think he will be a blessing to all of us P312 guys.

MitchellSince1893
01-06-2018, 08:31 PM
...I don't have his GedMatch ID handy, but it enables folks who are that way inclined to use various GedMatch tools on the autosomal DNA of ancient samples, including I0806.

I0806 Bell Beaker, Quedlinburg, Germany (2431-2150 BC)
Y-DNA Haplogroup: R1b1a1a2a1a2a-DF27
GEDmatch Kit Number: T253390

curiousII
01-07-2018, 06:05 PM
I0806 Bell Beaker, Quedlinburg, Germany (2431-2150 BC)
Y-DNA Haplogroup: R1b1a1a2a1a2a-DF27
GEDmatch Kit Number: T253390

Using the procedure from the Tollense Battle thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12455-Do-you-match-the-Tollense-Bronze-Age-battle-site-bodies, I lowered the GEDMatch parameters to 50/3 with T253390 and got:


Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
1 3,241,019 4,626,314 4.2 57
1 5,843,629 7,443,188 3.1 55
1 110,291,864 112,158,422 3.0 58
1 166,607,891 170,453,352 4.1 133
1 183,762,466 188,651,759 3.3 81
2 12,153,944 14,919,484 3.6 57
2 71,833,962 74,975,153 4.2 60
2 148,853,010 152,585,480 3.6 77
2 160,804,435 166,242,452 3.2 92
2 216,534,087 218,122,227 3.9 59
2 227,295,932 230,420,418 5.0 72
3 14,435,919 20,320,380 5.9 148
3 54,637,514 56,833,534 3.5 60
4 27,289,581 35,580,019 7.0 113
5 65,119,552 68,332,460 3.7 85
5 84,213,416 90,612,714 4.1 100
5 168,530,765 169,792,651 3.4 54
5 171,983,515 173,281,722 4.4 57
6 4,479,173 6,090,691 4.1 51
6 41,312,783 43,527,273 4.7 77
6 94,494,654 100,423,867 3.8 106
7 135,334,351 137,636,341 3.6 51
8 87,641,779 93,562,440 3.0 78
8 137,265,185 139,264,771 4.0 66
9 1,394,690 3,887,225 7.4 104
9 96,013,816 100,725,341 4.1 104
10 4,197,398 5,527,569 3.2 52
10 21,073,704 24,715,343 3.2 81
10 113,051,122 115,165,640 3.3 70
11 33,910,769 35,369,623 3.1 56
11 122,687,200 124,677,803 3.5 58
12 82,728,205 89,642,224 3.3 93
12 104,544,028 107,192,682 4.0 72
13 21,639,013 22,976,355 3.8 60
13 77,871,604 81,137,718 3.2 63
13 99,386,167 101,246,095 4.3 71
13 104,788,813 106,336,569 4.0 52
14 39,028,381 45,476,666 3.5 103
16 49,687,634 51,448,984 3.1 56
16 76,318,867 77,459,158 3.1 57
16 78,709,167 80,106,628 3.6 65
17 11,198,528 12,763,268 4.0 53
17 30,888,592 35,392,550 5.2 79
17 44,194,565 46,390,710 3.8 57
17 67,633,703 68,937,089 4.3 66
17 71,199,090 72,957,516 4.5 72
18 10,359,718 11,869,342 4.3 60
20 2,744,471 4,746,628 4.1 78
20 18,772,804 20,133,874 3.6 54
20 46,319,129 48,701,334 3.1 97
20 53,700,001 54,878,791 3.4 51
22 23,621,682 25,472,366 5.9 90

Largest segment = 7.4 cM
Total of segments > 3 cM = 206.4 cM
52 matching segments

Welp, there it is. I'm satisfied, done deal. B)

curiousII
01-16-2018, 09:39 PM
Thanks from the like, Palamede. My post has been sitting here for a while now with no knee-jerk response. I know lowering the GEDMatch values makes any potential match farcical, that was explained in a spot or two in the Tollense thread. But it's fun anyway and that sure looks like a lot of short, inconsequential hits with T253390, doesn't it?

razyn
01-26-2018, 12:20 AM
I have taken a stab at creating a sort of historiography for DF27 research. I've just rewritten the introductory paragraphs of post #2 on that thread (can't edit the original post, that was too long ago). In the process of editing, I determined that this thread of Mike's was the first one on the Anthrogenica forum to have that DF27 Timeline sort of focus. So I'm hereby linking my new "Way Back" thread, to serve more or less as prefatory matter, or the "back story," for this one. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11380-Way-back-when-P312*-started-looking-like-Z196-until-DF27-was-discovered

Quite by accident, this evening I happened to reread a brief thread from 2012 in which the Anglesey Bonesetter's YDNA was discussed. There was a somewhat implausible claim that he (a shipwreck victim whose speech was not understood by anybody) was ancestrally from the Caucasus. And that was because his YDNA belonged to a branch of R-P312 called S250... which is Jim Wilson's name for DF27. Unfortunately the url for the Bonesetter DNA project itself is a broken link; it was a privately funded study done by the Wilson lab (then BritainsDNA), and may not be currently available on the web.

Anyway, that August, 2012 brief discussion is pretty early, by our (DF27) standards, so it should be noted here. I think only posts 1, 2, 4, and 5 are relevant. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=357&viewfull=1#post357

I did get the leading SNP from the Bonesetter study (S400) included in the DF27 SNP Pack, back when MikeWww was soliciting suggestions for inclusion on it. But I'm not aware of any FTDNA customer who has yet turned up with the S400+ result. And it's not found (as S400) in Alex Williamson's Mutations Index.

Webb
01-26-2018, 01:10 AM
Quite by accident, this evening I happened to reread a brief thread from 2012 in which the Anglesey Bonesetter's YDNA was discussed. There was a somewhat implausible claim that he (a shipwreck victim whose speech was not understood by anybody) was ancestrally from the Caucasus. And that was because his YDNA belonged to a branch of R-P312 called S250... which is Jim Wilson's name for DF27. Unfortunately the url for the Bonesetter DNA project itself is a broken link; it was a privately funded study done by the Wilson lab (then BritainsDNA), and may not be currently available on the web.

Anyway, that August, 2012 brief discussion is pretty early, by our (DF27) standards, so it should be noted here. I think only posts 1, 2, 4, and 5 are relevant. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=357&viewfull=1#post357

I did get the leading SNP from the Bonesetter study (S400) included in the DF27 SNP Pack, back when MikeWww was soliciting suggestions for inclusion on it. But I'm not aware of any FTDNA customer who has yet turned up with the S400+ result. And it's not found (as S400) in Alex Williamson's Mutations Index.

It’s funny you brought this up as I was thinking about it a few months back wondering if there have been any developments in that project. I suspect we won’t ever hear much about it again after Wilson’s group made the Caucus claim compared to what we know now about DF27.

gotten
01-26-2018, 01:36 AM
If you take the Ysearch profile (D3786) that lgmayka talks about in the 2012 discussion and put it into the Nevgen haplogroup predictor you get ~50% unsupported subclade and 42% Z2103, Z2106+ (not DF27) which is actually quite common near the Caucasus. But then again, the snippets of data that are still found online of the Bonesetter talk about P312 and DF27. :noidea:


12,24,14,11,10-14,12,12,13,13,13,30,16,9-10,11,11,25,15,19,30,15-15-18-18,11,11,19-23,14,15,17,17,37-40,12,12,11,9,15-16,8,10,10,8,10,11,12,23-23,18,10,12,12,15,8,12,22,20,13,12,11,13,11,11,12, 12,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,11,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,23,0,0,0,0,9,12,11

razyn
01-26-2018, 05:25 AM
I looked at that YSearch profile, and the contact is Gioiello Tognoni, inveterate ex-member of this and other forums. Who is, in fact, a Z2103 guy. I wonder if the posted YSearch profile just isn't the right number for the Bonesetter? Alternately, the Bonesetter wasn't really S250/DF27, but might really have had Caucasus ancestry (and so might Gioiello, but don't try to tell him). Can't have it both ways.

runkefer
02-02-2018, 12:45 AM
Deleted

runkefer
02-02-2018, 12:49 AM
Kits at YFull and YTree that are DF27>FGC20747 from Eastern Europe (Czech Republic, Belarus, Poland) are Jewish diaspora descendants. Their ancestors were most likely in Eastern Europe for 300-500 years tops, so the geography will throw off your stats. We don't have a better way to classify them, though. More likely they were in Iberia before Eastern Europe, but we don't know for sure yet.

razyn
02-02-2018, 05:31 AM
Kits at YFull and YTree that are DF27>FGC20747 from Eastern Europe (Czech Republic, Belarus, Poland) are Jewish diaspora descendants. Their ancestors were most likely in Eastern Europe for 300-500 years tops, so the geography will throw off your stats.

I don't know whose stats you mean, but in case you don't know it I'm your friend Dick Hulan, and I believe we are still on the same page. But not everybody posting here is clued in about FGC20747, so welcome to the discussions. All of us are sort of marking time while we wait for the DF27 element in ancient DNA samples to grow, presumably starting when the Olalde et al Bell Beaker paper is in print.

curiousII
02-03-2018, 09:19 PM
FGC20747, is this something that we should all know about?

runkefer
02-03-2018, 10:21 PM
Sorry. I was trying to reply to a poster who had collected geographic stats from YFull and Alex W's tree. Just trying to point out that "Belarus" doesn't really mean ancient "Belarus." I can't find that original post now :-(

runkefer
02-03-2018, 10:25 PM
FGC20747, is this something that we should all know about?

FGC20747 is a branch of DF27>ZZ12 with its own subhaplogroup project. It consists of about 150 members, predominantly Portuguese/Spanish ancestry (from multiple colonial areas) with a large Sephardic/Ashkenazi cluster (N=66) and a few scattered branches of early US British Colonial ancestry. The TMRCA of the entire group is roughly 4K ybp. We published an article specifically about the Jewish cluster about a year ago, but we have much more data since then, so probably will publish an updated article soon.

razyn
02-11-2018, 05:03 AM
I agree. It seems to me the methodology that arrived at the conclusion that DF27 arose in NE Iberia is the same sort of methodology that gave us the R1b FC Ice Age Refuge.

How likely is it that DF27 arose anywhere in Iberia, given that Olalde et al found no R1b-M269 in Neolithic Iberia or in early Iberian Bell Beaker? Non-Iberian Bell Beaker was strongly R1b-P312, lacked Iberian autosomal dna, and was strongly Yamnayan in its autosomal profile. When the Olalde et al raw data finally come out, we'll see that some of those non-Iberian Bell Beaker guys were DF27. After all, DF27 has already been found in German Bell Beaker, and there was plenty of his close cousin, U152, in the Olalde et al Bell Beaker results.

Look at the Z40481 section of Alex Williamson's Big Tree. It shows DF27 and his close kin. I'm thinking DF27 did not arise very far from the rest of that group.

19073

My guess is East Central Europe if not the Pontic steppe itself.

While we are waiting for the Olalde et al reality check, we may divert ourselves with another salvo from Calafell. Or, you know, we may not. Anyway someone posted this link on the 23andMe discussion forum today; it's recent, and DF27 is still getting more credit than it deserves in Iberia. And vice versa. I suppose I should care, but I kind of don't. Facts are facts, and when we have more of them I'll go with what they tell us. http://sapiencia.eu/los-ibers-son-ancessors-de-gascons-bascos-e-catalans/

Note, the cited article is in Occitan, but there is a tab at upper right whereby one may Google translate it into another language, selected from a long list. The English one isn't very easy to read, either, but one gets the drift.

curiousII
02-24-2018, 03:52 PM
While we are waiting for the Olalde et al...

Is this that paper? https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25738 and https://www.broadinstitute.org/news/ancient-dna-reveals-impact-%E2%80%9Cbeaker-phenomenon%E2%80%9D-prehistoric-europeans I couldn't find it online, just snippets like these. You've probably had access to it by now; if you've written about it elsewhere on this site, I haven't seen it yet.

Interesting that they say the bell-shaped pottery didn't specifically define a people at first, it simply occurred and then was spread about afterwards by migrating people. I've read (and heard that) that's a phenomenon with inventions: One inventor will have an idea or design in America, a person in China will have the same idea at the same time, and, for the sake of argument, someone in Ireland will, too, all three identical or near to and all seeking patents simultaneously. None had ever met each other or corresponded, yet their creations will be more than similar, they could be exact and complementary. A lot of that was said to have happened along the time of the First World War, with the spurt of technology that came with internal combustion engines leading to patent wars.

You're already getting posts directed to you on the Family Tree DF27 project. If P312 is from Iberia, which is what the new posts in the DF27 project allude to, will that have any effect on DF27's placement itself?

REWM
02-24-2018, 06:44 PM
Is this that paper? https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25738 and https://www.broadinstitute.org/news/ancient-dna-reveals-impact-%E2%80%9Cbeaker-phenomenon%E2%80%9D-prehistoric-europeans I couldn't find it online, just snippets like these.

Here it is http://rdcu.be/HxtJ

razyn
02-24-2018, 06:57 PM
You're already getting posts directed to you on the Family Tree DF27 project. If P312 is from Iberia, which is what the new posts in the DF27 project allude to, will that have any effect on DF27's placement itself?
No.

And those posts are just Blas, again -- not anything to take seriously. I did reply, since you brought it to my attention.

curiousII
02-25-2018, 12:49 AM
No.

And those posts are just Blas, again -- not anything to take seriously. I did reply, since you brought it to my attention.
Right, right. You've probably seen his response, he's telling you you'll have a hard time disproving Iberian roots now.

Don't know if anyone would believe me, but I'm really not trying to be argumentative myself. I'm not knowledgeable enough to try even if I wanted to. But this scientific dispute about who and what DF27 is is quite similar to the patent wars of the Industrial Revolution. New science, new technology, and the new world that comes with it is impetus enough to start disputes just like what we're seeing right now.

Seems to be similarities, anyway.

Ric
03-09-2018, 02:59 PM
So, Quedlinsburg IO806 cannot be assigned df27 with certainty ? As far as I understood he is just S116/P312, but is it surprising ? looking for df27 downstream SNP at a time when these snps didn't exist yet, not to mention that df27 carriers must not have numbered much above the hundreds of individuals and many of them may have been in dead branches...
Was there a particular downstream SNP that was expected in IO806 ?

razyn
03-09-2018, 06:32 PM
Was there a particular downstream SNP that was expected in I0806 ?
No, there's a list, and nothing on the list was found in the BAM files (he was sequenced twice). But the more relevant fact was that ZZ11+ (upstream of DF27 or U152) was found, w/o any evidence of U152. On a sample that old, that's very good evidence that the single DF27+ call is real.

Also, there are probably extinct branches of DF27 that nobody is looking for, since they haven't been found in (e.g.) FTDNA or FGC NextGen sequencing of living guys. (And can't be, if they are extinct.)

Ric
03-09-2018, 08:21 PM
No, there's a list, and nothing on the list was found in the BAM files (he was sequenced twice). But the more relevant fact was that ZZ11+ (upstream of DF27 or U152) was found, w/o any evidence of U152. On a sample that old, that's very good evidence that the single DF27+ call is real.

Also, there are probably extinct branches of DF27 that nobody is looking for, since they haven't been found in (e.g.) FTDNA or FGC NextGen sequencing of living guys. (And can't be, if they are extinct.)

Does he have the equivalent of novel variants that could be used to see how old he is, compared to ZZ11 ? or even better to his putative df27 ancestor ? I mean in terms of SNPs, he should not have many 'novel variants'.

razyn
03-09-2018, 11:49 PM
The guy has been dead for over 4,000 years, he doesn't have many calls at any locus, either expected or novel. A BAM file in aDNA is not like a BigY or a Full Genomes Corp. BAM file (over a gigabyte, often with 150 reads per locus). It's just the same type file. Maybe 4 reads, at a really well-covered locus. Maybe 15-30 MB of data, not 1.3 GB. It's not like finding 15 or 50 copies of a needle in a haystack. More like 2 copies in a bushel basket -- and that's still hard to find. We're lucky to find anything.

Also, only a few people are looking at these BAM files, and I'm not one of them. Alex Williamson and Rich Rocca have been looking at the new ones, and haven't announced any DF27 finds. Rich has about 30 "new" ancient U152>L2 samples to play with, mostly from three cemeteries in and near Prague. Those fellow descendants of Mr. ZZ11 are cousins to whatever DF27 contemporaries they had; but the many contributors of samples for the Olalde et al 2018 paper didn't turn up a cluster of DF27 cemeteries.

A couple of bloggers whose stuff I don't like to look at have a reputation in some circles of being thorough. So, there are more analyses yet to come. But I don't have anything new to announce on this thread.

R.Rocca
03-10-2018, 02:18 AM
It's not for a lack of trying. This is what I had found from the five P312+ Dutch BB samples. Reminder that they are all DF99-, L21- (or associated SNPs) and L2-. I4073 and I4074 are confirmed DF27-.

6868695 C T I4073 aka A1108. Way down L21 branch. L21- result contradicts this.
7031222 G A I4068 Way down the L21 branch. L21- result contradicts this.
7218633 G A I4074 Below U152 > ZZ45 but part of Beck surname cluster. Ancestral and derived calls.
7559013 G T I4069 Way down U152 L2 branch. L2- contradicts this.
7589975 G A I5748 Way down U152 L2 branch. L2- contradicts this.
7731863 G A I4069 Way down DF27 branch. Found in Gleason surname men.
7738519 G A I4069 Way down the L21 branch. L21- result contradicts this.
7757479 C T I4069 Good age estimate (2293 BC) but DF99- result contradicts this.
7790940 C T I4074 Way down the L21 branch. L21- result contradicts this.
7790940 C T I5748 Way down the L21 branch. L21- result contradicts this.
8216019 G A I5750 Way down U152 L2 branch. L2- contradicts this.
8496849 G A I5748 L21 branch
8530191 G A I4068 U106 branch. P312+ contradicts this.
8635078 C T I5750 Way down the L21 branch. L21- result contradicts this.
13558086 G A I4073 Way down the U152 > Z56 branch
13670159 C T I4068 Way down DF27 branch.
13814460 C A I4073 Way down the L21 branch. L21- result contradicts this.
15027529 T G I5748 Found in many, many haplogroups
15878311 G A I5750 Way down the U152 > L2 tree. L2- contradicts this.
16519068 G A I5750 Way down the U152 > L2 > Z367 tree. L2- contradicts this.
16715935 G T I4074 Way down the L21 branch. L21- result contradicts this.
16771653 C A I4068 At Z193 level contradicts this
17330896 C A I5750 Way down DF27 branch.
17972372 G A I4073 Way down U152 L2 branch. L2- contradicts this.
18721283 G A I4068 Down DF27 branch. FGC20764- contradicts this.
19160903 G A I4073 U106 branch. P312+ contradicts this.
21400333 G A I4073 Way down the L21 branch. L21- result contradicts this.
22711460 T A I4074 Way down the L21 branch. L21- result contradicts this.
23268859 G A I4069 Way down the L21 branch. L21- result contradicts this.
23359799 G A I5750 Down DF27 branch. S450- result contradicts this.
23549444 G A I4074 U106 branch. P312+ contradicts this.
23968956 G A I5750 U106 branch. P312+ contradicts this.

R.Rocca
03-10-2018, 03:02 AM
For the Iberian samples, not much better:

Sample I6588 is P310+ and P311+ (same level as L11)

8108721 C T 36,3,0 I6588
Below R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z198 > L165/S68 > FGC29987 > BY3224 > 17436349-C-G (2160 BC). No data at SNPs between P311 and this SNP to validate/invalidate it.
8337146 G A 36,3,0 I6539
Below R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > Z39589 > S1051 > FGC9655 > FGC17938 (1336 BC)
21682144 C A 36,3,0 I6472
Below R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > Z39589 > DF41/S524 > Z43690 > Y8426/FGC5572 (1008 BC)
21933014 C T 36,3,0 I6539
Below R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > Z39589 > Z251/S470 > S11556 > S9294 > BY3231 > FGC11986 > FGC11975 > FGC11976 (735 AD)
22302653 T A 36,3,0 I6472
Private mutation in 1K Genomes HGDP01029
22711460 T A 36,3,0 I6588
Below R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > Z39589 > CTS1751 > Z17966 > Z17969 > Z17967 > BY596 (1599 BC)

razyn
03-10-2018, 03:41 PM
I'm pasting in my post #1076 (Feb. 21) from the main discussion thread for the Olalde et al paper. That thread has been closed by a moderator, after the usual taunting contest got out of hand. A few new comments have been inserted (today) pertaining to five samples now in boldface.


Unsurprisingly (because some of us swapped messages with Olalde in recent weeks) no sample is identified in the paper as DF27+ (or any subclade thereof). However, in the table posted here https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post352799 one may search with the authors' P312/S116 term, R1b1a1a2a1a2 and include a space after the last digit (in order to skip any identified as R1b1a1a2a1a2b or R1b1a1a2a1a2c). There are still 25 samples to play with, milk the BAM files by hand or whatever it takes. One of the 25 is our friend I0806, previously milked and found to be DF27+ (to our satisfaction, anyway). So, for the edification of those who know how to look, the BAM files of these samples are where to look:

I2566
I5382
I1382
I1389
I1390
I0806 Previously called (once each) ZZ11+ and DF27+
I3599
I4132
I5665
I2478
I4068
I4069
I4073
I4074
I5748
I5750 Rich has noticed some evidence both for and against mutations downstream of DF27.
I7202 Alex detected a ZZ11+ signal, no U152/L2, so the next logical option would be DF27.
I2421
I2602
I5441
I7630
I2567
I2569
I5516
I5359
__________

Adding to my previous list, two tentative calls:

I6537 Not identified as P312+, but Alex detected one ZZ11+ signal. Not U152/L2, so potentially DF27.
I2416 FGC11381 detected, a Rox2 marker below DF27. Not accepted by everyone, including Alex.


My current expectation would be that many, perhaps most of them were DF27. Whether any evidence of that elusive SNP survives in these samples (or their recovered data) is another question.

Ric
03-10-2018, 07:47 PM
I am not shocked by the lack of downstream SNPs, the opposite would be surprising given the age of IO806, radiocarboned around 2600BP +/- if I recall correctly. Actually, IO806 is almost too old since Alex Williamson's tree now put df27's mean age at 2565BP (it thought it was older around 2800BP).
But anyways, even with the uncertainties, we must be talking about an incredibly narrow 200 years old difference or less between IO806 and his Df27 first ancestor.
Since a doubling of the df27 population with two sons per generations would still barely produce sixteen df27+ individuals after 4 generations/100 years, it means that IO806 and the other 'putative individuals' written in bold above, like I7202, if they lived about the same generation, they must necessarily be related as close autosomal matches on their paternal side. Anybody knows if they share autosomal segments ?

I am not done... Anglesqueville has shown that the non-steppe autosomal component in the Bell Beakers from Germany and Netherlands could not come from Iberian Bell Beakers, but instead from individuals of 'Trypillian' background that lived in today's Moldova, Ukraine and Romania, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni%E2%80%93Trypillia_culture but this culture was long extinct before IO806 according to wikipedia. What is the connection between P312/zz11 and the 'Trypillians', anybody knows ?

Sorry, I can only be the guy who ask, I wish I'd be the guy who answer.

rms2
03-10-2018, 08:05 PM
. . . What is the connection between P312/zz11 and the 'Trypillians', anybody knows ?

. . .

My guess is Yamnaya. Western Yamnaya lived in close proximity to "Trypillians" (Cucuteni-Tripolye people) for centuries. No doubt admixture occurred.

I apologize for once again bringing up Gimbutas, but here goes, from page 390 of her book, The Civilization of the Goddess:



The Bell Beaker culture of western Europe which diffused between 2500 and 2100 B.C. between central Europe, the British Isles, and the Iberian Peninsula, could not have arisen in a vacuum. The mobile horse-riding and warrior people who buried their dead in Yamna type kurgans certainly could not have developed out of any west European culture. We must ask what sort of ecology and ideology created these people, and where are the roots of the specific Bell Beaker equipment and their burial rites. In my view, the Bell Beaker cultural elements derive from Vucedol and Kurgan (Late Yamna) traditions.

R.Rocca
03-11-2018, 03:46 AM
I am not shocked by the lack of downstream SNPs, the opposite would be surprising given the age of IO806, radiocarboned around 2600BP +/- if I recall correctly. Actually, IO806 is almost too old since Alex Williamson's tree now put df27's mean age at 2565BP (it thought it was older around 2800BP).
But anyways, even with the uncertainties, we must be talking about an incredibly narrow 200 years old difference or less between IO806 and his Df27 first ancestor.
Since a doubling of the df27 population with two sons per generations would still barely produce sixteen df27+ individuals after 4 generations/100 years, it means that IO806 and the other 'putative individuals' written in bold above, like I7202, if they lived about the same generation, they must necessarily be related as close autosomal matches on their paternal side. Anybody knows if they share autosomal segments ?

I am not done... Anglesqueville has shown that the non-steppe autosomal component in the Bell Beakers from Germany and Netherlands could not come from Iberian Bell Beakers, but instead from individuals of 'Trypillian' background that lived in today's Moldova, Ukraine and Romania, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni%E2%80%93Trypillia_culture but this culture was long extinct before IO806 according to wikipedia. What is the connection between P312/zz11 and the 'Trypillians', anybody knows ?

Sorry, I can only be the guy who ask, I wish I'd be the guy who answer.

DF27 sample I0806 from Quedlinburg is actually radiocarbon dated to 2431–2150 calBCE (3824±25 BP, MAMS-22820).

Either way, it will be difficult to find SNPs more than three or four levels downstream from L21, DF27 or U152 in the Bell Beaker period, especially since many may have become extinct.

As an example, the four Czech samples below belong to R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > U152/S28 > L2/S139 > BY3483 > Z46080

I4885 = 2289–2143 calBCE (3790±20 BP, PSUAMS-2843)
I4886 = 2205–2042 calBCE (3740±20 BP, PSUAMS-2844)
I4887 = 2201–2039 calBCE (3730±20 BP, PSUAMS-2845)
I4888 = 2190–2029 calBCE (3700±20 BP, PSUAMS-2846)

In modern men, BY3483 is part of an 11 SNP clade that fully formed around 903 BC, but we know that these Czech Bell Beaker men broke off before then because they are negative for all other SNPs in that clade that returned results:

15722102-
23329264-
22239603-
22479415-

So, we have results from an area where modern L2 is likely low and from an area that has very low FTDNA representation. It may be like finding a needle in a haystack.

R.Rocca
03-11-2018, 01:18 PM
My current expectation would be that many, perhaps most of them were DF27. Whether any evidence of that elusive SNP survives in these samples (or their recovered data) is another question.

The only two Dutch BB samples that had calls at DF27 were I4073 and I4074, and they were both negative. We shouldn't forget that U152 itself has no coverage in any of Olalde's samples. I expect that, especially for P312+ samples from the Eastern Bell Beaker group, most will turn out to be U152+ L2-.

corner
03-11-2018, 01:34 PM
Regarding I2416 (Boscombe Bowman 2460–2200 calBCE, buried 700m north of similarly-aged 1289 Amesbury Archer) and his FGC11381+ result, there is not a lot to go on but I don't think there is evidence to rule out the possibility of I2416/25004 being DF27+. FGC11381 could still be one of the earliest ancient SNPs in Rox2's lengthy bottleneck, unlikely as it might seem considering other odd SNP results from ancient burials. Unlike some of those other contradictory results, there are no negative SNP calls to contradict I2416 being DF27>>FGC11381 yet - there being no reads at all for SNPs in the low quality .bam file upstream of FGC11381 and downstream of P310. It hangs by a thread as thin as our subclade's currently 3000-ish year bottleneck.

The two early Bell Beaker migrants at the Boscombe Down site, the Amesbury Archer (1289) and the FGC11381+ Boscombe Bowman (I2416) are the two best-known burials but have non-existent or ambiguously low quality yDNA results respectively. Their tooth isotopes seem to be well preserved in comparison - judging by the complex analysis of that. Petrous bones preserved inside the skull should, apparently, yield good quality yDNA for NGS testing and in situ articulated burials 1289 and I2416, both lying on their left sides, heads north, facing east, have intact skulls. Other burials at the site did get a subclade downstream of P312 identified in Olalde et al. 2018. Of the burials lying nearby to the Archer and Bowmen, 1289's 'Companion' (1238) 3m to the east and bones from I2417/25005, lying above I2416/25004 Bowscombe Bowman, are L21+, so the soil conditions appear OK.

R.Rocca
03-12-2018, 11:24 PM
The new Iberian paper has the following sample:

Individual: esp005
Site: Cueva de los lagos/South
YHG: R1b-DF27
Classification: Bronze Age

The spreadsheet only shows him as P312 however, so we will have to see what the BAM file says. unfortunately he was not radiocarbon tested. Also from the paper:


Although the human remains recovered from the interior of the cave come from uncontrolled
excavation and thus lacks context, both the settlement and the burial are associated to the Cogotas
culture of the Late Bronze Age, whose most characteristic element is the type of ceramic decoration
termed Boquique.

ArmandoR1b
03-13-2018, 12:45 PM
The new Iberian paper has the following sample:

Individual: esp005
Site: Cueva de los lagos/South
YHG: R1b-DF27
Classification: Bronze Age

The spreadsheet only shows him as P312 however, so we will have to see what the BAM file says. unfortunately he was not radiocarbon tested. Also from the paper:

When I downloaded and opened Dataset_S01 (XLS) (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/03/06/1717762115/tab-figures-data) is showed DF27 on line 21 and he shows to have the A allele.

22084

For others like myself that didn't initially know which study was being referred to it is

Four millennia of Iberian biomolecular prehistory illustrate the impact of prehistoric migrations at the far end of Eurasia
Cristina Valdiosera, Torsten Günther, Juan Carlos Vera-Rodríguez, Irene Ureña, Eneko Iriarte, Ricardo Rodríguez-Varela, Luciana G. Simões, Rafael M. Martínez-Sánchez, Emma M. Svensson, Helena Malmström, Laura Rodríguez, José-María Bermúdez de Castro, Eudald Carbonell, Alfonso Alday, José Antonio Hernández Vera, Anders Götherström, José-Miguel Carretero, Juan Luis Arsuaga, Colin I. Smith, Mattias Jakobsson
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Mar 2018, 201717762; DOI: https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1717762115


I guess the BAM file isn't ready yet since it should be linked to from https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB23467

R.Rocca
03-13-2018, 01:38 PM
When I downloaded and opened Dataset_S01 (XLS) (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/03/06/1717762115/tab-figures-data) is showed DF27 on line 21 and he shows to have the A allele.

22084

For others like myself that didn't initially know which study was being referred to it is

Four millennia of Iberian biomolecular prehistory illustrate the impact of prehistoric migrations at the far end of Eurasia
Cristina Valdiosera, Torsten Günther, Juan Carlos Vera-Rodríguez, Irene Ureña, Eneko Iriarte, Ricardo Rodríguez-Varela, Luciana G. Simões, Rafael M. Martínez-Sánchez, Emma M. Svensson, Helena Malmström, Laura Rodríguez, José-María Bermúdez de Castro, Eudald Carbonell, Alfonso Alday, José Antonio Hernández Vera, Anders Götherström, José-Miguel Carretero, Juan Luis Arsuaga, Colin I. Smith, Mattias Jakobsson
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Mar 2018, 201717762; DOI: https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1717762115


I guess the BAM file isn't ready yet since it should be linked to from https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB23467

Good catch. I saw the SNPs getting incrementally younger as one looked down that I missed that it was the first haplogroup R SNP listed. The placement of this DF27 sample in the Cogatas Culture is interesting because Cogatas replaces the Bell Beaker Culture in a large area of Iberia. We know from the Martiniano pre-print that P312+ had reach Portugal by at least the Middle Bronze Age.

ArmandoR1b
03-13-2018, 02:10 PM
We know from the Martiniano pre-print that P312+ had reach Portugal by at least the Middle Bronze Age.

Olalde et al. 2018 has Iberian Bell Beaker specimen I6539 as P312+ and radiocarbon dated to 2500–2000 BCE. I5665 is also from Iberian Bell Beaker and P312+ and radiocarbon dated to 2280–1984 calBCE. Aren't those Early Bronze Age and therefore older than the Martiniano specimen?

R.Rocca
03-13-2018, 03:15 PM
Olalde et al. 2018 has Iberian Bell Beaker specimen I6539 as P312+ and radiocarbon dated to 2500–2000 BCE. I5665 is also from Iberian Bell Beaker and P312+ and radiocarbon dated to 2280–1984 calBCE. Aren't those Early Bronze Age and therefore older than the Martiniano specimen?

Yes, but none of the Olalde paper's Portuguese samples were R1b, so that's why I mentioned that by the Middle Bronze Age, we already have a spread of P312 from NE to the SW of the peninsula.

razyn
03-13-2018, 03:40 PM
Yes, but none of the Olalde paper's Portuguese samples were R1b, so that's why I mentioned that by the Middle Neolithic, we already have a spread of P312 from NE to the SW of the peninsula.

Don't you mean, Middle Bronze Age? That's not any kind of Neolithic.

I'm trying to stay out of this, and let the guys who know what they are doing just do it. I6539 wasn't on my checklist, but I did add I6537, as one of the ZZ11+ samples identified by Alex a few days ago. In case they are from the same cemetery, or whatever.

R.Rocca
03-13-2018, 04:05 PM
Don't you mean, Middle Bronze Age? That's not any kind of Neolithic.

I'm trying to stay out of this, and let the guys who know what they are doing just do it. I6539 wasn't on my checklist, but I did add I6537, as one of the ZZ11+ samples identified by Alex a few days ago. In case they are from the same cemetery, or whatever.

Yes, I changed it to say Middle Bronze Age.

ArmandoR1b
03-13-2018, 05:34 PM
Yes, but none of the Olalde paper's Portuguese samples were R1b, so that's why I mentioned that by the Middle Bronze Age, we already have a spread of P312 from NE to the SW of the peninsula.

Thanks for the clarification. I wonder if P312 wasn't already in Portugal in the Early Bronze Age. Are there too few burials found so far in Portugal in the Early Bronze Age to expect to find enough specimens that at least could get a read for P312?

R.Rocca
03-13-2018, 07:01 PM
Thanks for the clarification. I wonder if P312 wasn't already in Portugal in the Early Bronze Age. Are there too few burials found so far in Portugal in the Early Bronze Age to expect to find enough specimens that at least could get a read for P312?

I suspect the final classification will be something like:

Early Portuguese Bell Beaker
Y-DNA: non-M269
Metallurgic Age: Late Copper Age

Early Steppe Derived Bell Beaker
Y-DNA: M269 and more specifically P312
Metallurgic Age: Early Bronze Age

R.Rocca
03-16-2018, 02:03 AM
Sample esp005 is as follows:

DF27+ BY15964+ BY15965+ 22255193+ 14603177- BY15963? Y24895?
Y24894- 22317162-

11 of 13 samples on the YTree.net have Iberian surnames and the other two English.

ArmandoR1b
03-16-2018, 03:39 AM
Sample esp005 is as follows:

DF27+ BY15964+ BY15965+ 22255193+ 14603177- BY15963? Y24895?
Y24894- 22317162-

11 of 13 samples on the YTree.net have Iberian surnames and the other two English.

Cool. And, if there weren't a testing bias there would be more Iberian surnames. Another amazing thing is that the BY15964 block has the very widespread de la Garza (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/De_la_Garza_Falc%C3%B3n-30) lineage from northern Mexico. http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1846


Changing the subject, do you think you have time to check Roman solder FN_2 for Y-DNA SNPs from the Bavarian study that plots with Spaniards and Basques? The BAM file is at https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/SAMEA104354396

razyn
03-16-2018, 06:42 AM
Sample esp005 is as follows:

DF27+ BY15964+ BY15965+ 22255193+ 14603177- BY15963? Y24895?
Y24894- 22317162-

11 of 13 samples on the YTree.net have Iberian surnames and the other two English.


Cool. And, if there weren't a testing bias there would be more Iberian surnames.

But this is one block of three (so far) below ZZ51. The Iain McDonald estimates suggest it's the youngest of the three. And the other two blocks are richer in English; one of them, indeed, has a branch that appears to lean toward Belarus/Poland. Where, sadly, we have a negative sampling bias.

Given the cultural context of esp005 (no carbon date, but perhaps circa 1700 BC), I suspect these McDonald age estimates from last October are still on the young side. Be that as it may, the find certainly suggests that this most Iberian of the branches of DF27>ZZ12>ZZ51 currently known had established itself there before the middle of the second millennium. That just leaves about a thousand years to make it pertinent to the first question asked in this thread's subject line. It's good for the "when did it expand" part.

R.Rocca
03-16-2018, 01:36 PM
But this is one block of three (so far) below ZZ51. The Iain McDonald estimates suggest it's the youngest of the three. And the other two blocks are richer in English; one of them, indeed, has a branch that appears to lean toward Belarus/Poland. Where, sadly, we have a negative sampling bias.

Given the cultural context of esp005 (no carbon date, but perhaps circa 1700 BC), I suspect these McDonald age estimates from last October are still on the young side. Be that as it may, the find certainly suggests that this most Iberian of the branches of DF27>ZZ12>ZZ51 currently known had established itself there before the middle of the second millennium. That just leaves about a thousand years to make it pertinent to the first question asked in this thread's subject line. It's good for the "when did it expand" part.

I agree. The only thing this tells us is that the BY15964 et al. subclade was in Iberia by the Middle Bronze Age. BTW, looking at the number of project members in FTDNA's IberianDNA and Poland projects, there is no sampling bias. If anything, it looks like more Polish-Americans test than Hispanic-Americans.

Menchaca
03-16-2018, 07:56 PM
According to ytree.net, ZZ51 is a sister clade to FGC20747. Rachel Unkefer et al. have studied this branch.

ArmandoR1b
03-16-2018, 08:31 PM
But this is one block of three (so far) below ZZ51. The Iain McDonald estimates suggest it's the youngest of the three. And the other two blocks are richer in English; one of them, indeed, has a branch that appears to lean toward Belarus/Poland. Where, sadly, we have a negative sampling bias.The other two blocks being richer in English has a good possibility of being due to the testing bias I mentioned.

The biggest problem with Belarus/Poland, apart from cost, is that even if there were equal testing from people from those areas, as there is from the British Isles, the rate of DF27 there is so low that it will always be a minority region in modern populations with DF27. Even when it comes to testing of ancient remains I expect DF27 to be a small minority in Belarus/Poland.

For example at YFull, using the haplogroups found in Europe - R1b, R1a, I1, I2, N, Q, E, G, J1, J2, C, T
Belarus & Poland have a total of 305 kits and only 10 (3.28%) are DF27. In contrast, Spain and Portugal, using the exact same haplogroups, have just 257 kits and 106 (41.2%) are DF27. Belarus & Poland would have to have almost 12.6 times the kits than the kits from Iberia to have equal presence.


Given the cultural context of esp005 (no carbon date, but perhaps circa 1700 BC), I suspect these McDonald age estimates from last October are still on the young side. Be that as it may, the find certainly suggests that this most Iberian of the branches of DF27>ZZ12>ZZ51 currently known had established itself there before the middle of the second millennium. That just leaves about a thousand years to make it pertinent to the first question asked in this thread's subject line. It's good for the "when did it expand" part.
Repeating my other posts, the P312 in the Early Bronze Age in Spain have a possibility of being positive for DF27 which would bring in it down to 800-300 years since the radiocarbon date for one of them is 2000-2500 BC.

runkefer
03-17-2018, 04:42 AM
But this is one block of three (so far) below ZZ51. The Iain McDonald estimates suggest it's the youngest of the three. And the other two blocks are richer in English; one of them, indeed, has a branch that appears to lean toward Belarus/Poland. Where, sadly, we have a negative sampling bias.

Given the cultural context of esp005 (no carbon date, but perhaps circa 1700 BC), I suspect these McDonald age estimates from last October are still on the young side. Be that as it may, the find certainly suggests that this most Iberian of the branches of DF27>ZZ12>ZZ51 currently known had established itself there before the middle of the second millennium. That just leaves about a thousand years to make it pertinent to the first question asked in this thread's subject line. It's good for the "when did it expand" part.

Belarus/Poland is a red herring. The 2 Big Y samples under ZZ51 are Jewish, part of a much larger Jewish STR cluster. While their ancestors might have lived in Eastern Europe in the 19th/20th centuries, they are *not* ethnically Slavic. Most likely their ancestors were part of the diaspora created by the 14th and 15th century expulsions of Jews from Spain and Portugal. I would assume the origin of this Y-DNA is Iberian or Mediterranean of some type, potentially entering the Jewish community around the time of the Roman Empire or possibly earlier.

razyn
03-17-2018, 05:45 AM
Belarus/Poland is a red herring.

Really, it was intended as such. Baited the hook with herring, and caught the bigger fish I thought would bite at it. But I also follow Armando's posts on 23andMe Discussions, where he's about the best informed and least blindered commentator on these matters.

However, the fact remains that the other two big subclades of ZZ51 don't look very Iberian on Alex's YTree (which includes 1000 Genomes), and do look older than BY15964 (to Iain McDonald -- I don't actually believe in dating by SNP-counting, but the estimates are a matter of record). Maybe those dates will be adjusted, in the light of an actual aDNA find. Or maybe not.

In the broader picture, I don't have much problem with what Alan just outlined a few hours ago, on another thread. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11766-Poll-Bell-Beaker-Models&p=365290&viewfull=1#post365290 And if that's remotely close to what happened, the downstream P312>ZZ11>DF27 or >U152 expansion happened from there -- or thereabouts (not necessarily Moravia, that's just Alan's current pick).

At present, U152 offers much more evidence of that direction of diffusion than DF27 does; but brothers have the same daddy. Is there any support in aDNA, discovered and analyzed thus far, to suggest that Mr. ZZ11 (or some non-U152, basal grandson of his) hiked over to Spain to beget DF27, so all of the rest of his descendants on that side of the tree must be part of a reflux? It's a very inelegant model.

Ravai
03-17-2018, 06:19 AM
Sample esp005 is as follows:

DF27+ BY15964+ BY15965+ 22255193+ 14603177- BY15963? Y24895?
Y24894- 22317162-

11 of 13 samples on the YTree.net have Iberian surnames and the other two English.

Hello Richard, can you tell me the URL of the BAM file of specimen esp005 where you found that it is positive for BY15964.

Thanks

Regards

ArmandoR1b
03-17-2018, 08:21 PM
Hello Richard, can you tell me the URL of the BAM file of specimen esp005 where you found that it is positive for BY15964.

Thanks

Regards

I can. It is at https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS2059523

Saludos

ArmandoR1b
03-17-2018, 10:50 PM
However, the fact remains that the other two big subclades of ZZ51 don't look very Iberian on Alex's YTree (which includes 1000 Genomes), and do look older than BY15964 (to Iain McDonald -- I don't actually believe in dating by SNP-counting, but the estimates are a matter of record). Maybe those dates will be adjusted, in the light of an actual aDNA find. Or maybe not.The YFull numbers that I used also include 100 Genomes which is only a small percentage of the Iberian testers (only 39/159 from Iberia in YFull R1b page)

Just for an idea this is what sample size of Iberia vs British Isles (Ireland,Scotland, Wales, England, and U.K.) at YFull it is 267 vs 1761. So British Isles has 6.82 times the number of people with an Iberian flag. If I add in the Latin Americans with Iberians it is 519 vs 1761 so 3.39 times.

DF83 is the Z251 subclade that has more non-Iberian testers since even if the Latin Americans from Puerto Rico and Peru were multiplied by 3 then it would still be a smaller amount. The YFull DF83 page (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-DF83/) isn't very different from the DF83 page in Alex's YTree (http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=232). The main difference is with Alex's tree is that you can use surnames to get an idea where the people without flags have their ancestry from but then we would have to increase the sampling bias towards British Isles for those.

My points about the sampling bias is that the trees shouldn't be looked at without giving more weight to the lower sampled populations that have a much higher rate of DF27. At the same time, once that is done then your points can be taken into consideration. That is when DF83 then becomes a valid example of some subclades most likely first appeared outside of Iberia. We need a lot more samples both from ancient DNA and from modern populations before the picture is clear enough to have a consensus of the vast majority of people with only a small number of skeptics.


In the broader picture, I don't have much problem with what Alan just outlined a few hours ago, on another thread. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11766-Poll-Bell-Beaker-Models&p=365290&viewfull=1#post365290 And if that's remotely close to what happened, the downstream P312>ZZ11>DF27 or >U152 expansion happened from there -- or thereabouts (not necessarily Moravia, that's just Alan's current pick).
Those really are informative posts. Thanks for pointing them out.


At present, U152 offers much more evidence of that direction of diffusion than DF27 does; but brothers have the same daddy. Is there any support in aDNA, discovered and analyzed thus far, to suggest that Mr. ZZ11 (or some non-U152, basal grandson of his) hiked over to Spain to beget DF27, so all of the rest of his descendants on that side of the tree must be part of a reflux? It's a very inelegant model.
That along with the fact that P312 doesn't appear in Spain without Steppe ancestry and that doesn't happen until the Early Bronze Age. The totality of the evidence so far is against DF27 originating in Iberia. My points haven't been about DF27 originating in Spain. They have been about DF27 entering Spain at an early point in time and therefore many subclades of DF27 do originate in Spain.

razyn
03-17-2018, 11:53 PM
My points haven't been about DF27 originating in Spain. They have been about DF27 entering Spain at an early point in time and therefore many subclades of DF27 do originate in Spain.

And on that point, along with a few others, I believe we have been in substantial agreement for several years.

Maybe if we referred to sampling insufficiencies, non-random skewing, or found some other term that was meaningful but less loaded than "bias," I wouldn't go off on this from time to time. As a person of colonial ancestry from a handful of the first 13 US colonies, I've also run up against sample insufficiencies from places now called Germany, France, Sweden, and the allegedly United Kingdom. There are much better records (including DNA, now) for first-class passengers than for the indentured folks below decks, and so on.

Everybody has some cross of pain to bear; mine was being "Mister DF27" for four or five years with no Iberian iron in the fire. I pretty much handed off the big FTDNA project last July, so now I can make like a wise old uncle and reminisce about 2011. DF27 isn't the only haplogroup that is getting a new prescription for its eyeglasses, it's just the one I had the privilege (and headache) of pioneering for a while.

alan
03-18-2018, 12:27 AM
It surely entered Iberia in the late beaker period c 2200-2000BC but tests just failed to pick up the SNPs below P312. And geography pretty well dictates it entered from France. the

ArmandoR1b
03-18-2018, 01:44 AM
Maybe if we referred to sampling insufficiencies, non-random skewing, or found some other term that was meaningful but less loaded than "bias," I wouldn't go off on this from time to time.

Testing imbalance in lieu of bias sounds good to me. Bias was just shorter and easier to write and harder to remember that some people might misunderstand the cause of the bias wasn't intentional but rather due to cost, availability, interest, and higher purchasing power in the U.S. and British Isles. Mu use of it would fall under statistical bias. The loaded term would be observer bias. https://data36.com/statistical-bias-types-explained/

Menchaca
03-18-2018, 02:23 AM
My points haven't been about DF27 originating in Spain. They have been about DF27 entering Spain at an early point in time and therefore many subclades of DF27 do originate in Spain.

I agree.

razyn
03-19-2018, 03:29 AM
Sample esp005 is as follows:

DF27+ BY15964+ BY15965+ 22255193+ 14603177- BY15963? Y24895?
Y24894- 22317162-

11 of 13 samples on the YTree.net have Iberian surnames and the other two English.

I just noticed that Carlos Quiles has blogged about this sample, and related matters. https://indo-european.eu/2018/03/first-iberian-r1b-df27-sample-probably-from-incoming-east-bell-beakers/

Shadogowah
03-19-2018, 03:47 PM
Belarus/Poland is a red herring. The 2 Big Y samples under ZZ51 are Jewish, part of a much larger Jewish STR cluster. While their ancestors might have lived in Eastern Europe in the 19th/20th centuries, they are *not* ethnically Slavic. Most likely their ancestors were part of the diaspora created by the 14th and 15th century expulsions of Jews from Spain and Portugal. I would assume the origin of this Y-DNA is Iberian or Mediterranean of some type, potentially entering the Jewish community around the time of the Roman Empire or possibly earlier.

I was reading the thread and I was going to mention this. After the Granada decree, the kingdom of Bohemia became the main pole of attraction for exiles in Europe and it extended then over territories that today are part of Poland.

In am a spanish DF27 and my closest Y match happens to be polish.

Contemplator
03-21-2018, 03:27 AM
Sample esp005 is as follows:
DF27+ BY15964+ BY15965+ 22255193+ 14603177- BY15963? Y24895?
Y24894- 22317162-

11 of 13 samples on the YTree.net have Iberian surnames and the other two English.


Cool. And, if there weren't a testing bias there would be more Iberian surnames. Another amazing thing is that the BY15964 block has the very widespread de la Garza (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/De_la_Garza_Falc%C3%B3n-30) lineage from northern Mexico. http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1846


I just noticed that Carlos Quiles has blogged about this sample, and related matters. https://indo-european.eu/2018/03/first-iberian-r1b-df27-sample-probably-from-incoming-east-bell-beakers/

Awesome. I managed to get most of those BY15964 kits (the ones of Iberian or Latin American descent) to upload to ytree back when those kits could see each other as Big Y matches. Which was before the stricter matching requirement came into effect. FTDNA didn't give it a proper BY name until 2017. In case it matters for getting a feel on other aspects of the testing imbalance in BY15964, I should note I got 8 of those to test. There are 2 more (BY15969+) which I also got to test, but they have not sent their data to the ydna warehouse. Tried talking them into it but to no avail. Which is strange since I had already gotten them to go for Big Y testing. So I guess my recruiting skewed BY15964 to have more Iberian samples.

ArmandoR1b
03-21-2018, 04:03 AM
So I guess my recruiting skewed BY15964 to have more Iberian samples.

The thing is that it most likely balanced it out, as opposed to skewing it, since overall there are at least 3x as many British Isles testers in Alex's tree and YFull and we have the Bronze Age specimen in Spain. So that recruitment was needed to balance out ZZ51 which is heavily British Isles on the DF83 side.

Contemplator
03-21-2018, 04:43 AM
Right, balanced out when looking at a bigger picture like ZZ51, but maybe skewed when looking at BY15964 only maybe? Either way, didn't expect one of those SNPs to be mentioned so soon. YFull only has 3 of those BY15964 kits so far. I don't suppose anyone knows if esp005 showed results for BY15963 and Y24895? The Genetiker (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-esp005/) post with the SNP calls don't list those two, not even as negative. So I guess they are just no-calls.

R.Rocca
03-22-2018, 11:09 AM
Right, balanced out when looking at a bigger picture like ZZ51, but maybe skewed when looking at BY15964 only maybe? Either way, didn't expect one of those SNPs to be mentioned so soon. YFull only has 3 of those BY15964 kits so far. I don't suppose anyone knows if esp005 showed results for BY15963 and Y24895? The Genetiker (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-esp005/) post with the SNP calls don't list those two, not even as negative. So I guess they are just no-calls.

In my original announcement from last week I showed them as question marks because there was no data at those positions.

See here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand&p=364706&viewfull=1#post364706

R.Rocca
03-22-2018, 03:52 PM
Bell Beaker I6472 from La Magdalena, Madrid (2500–2000 BCE) is positive for U152>PF6658. What is interesting is that I0805 from Quedlinburg had one derived call for PF6658 (and one ancestral). If the PF6658+ Quedlinburg result is valid, then that would make two areas (Quedlinburg and Northern Iberia) where both U152>PF6658 and DF27 are found. This may be a coincidence or perhaps something relevant to the origin (or path traveled) for DF27.

R.Rocca
03-22-2018, 03:55 PM
Bell Beaker I6472 from La Magdalena, Madrid (2500–2000 BCE) is positive for U152>PF6658. What is interesting is that I0805 from Quedlinburg had one derived call for PF6658 (and one ancestral). If the PF6658+ Quedlinburg result is valid, then that would make two areas (Quedlinburg and Northern Iberia) where both U152>PF6658 and DF27 are found. This may be a coincidence or perhaps something relevant to the origin (or path traveled) for DF27.

I have proposed in the past that the Rhone-Rhine Bell Beaker Group would be important for DF27 and U152xL2 and this very small result may be a hint of that.

razyn
03-22-2018, 04:51 PM
Bell Beaker I6472 from La Magdalena, Madrid (2500–2000 BCE) is positive for U152>PF6658. What is interesting is that I0805 from Quedlinburg had one derived call for PF6658 (and one ancestral). If the PF6658+ Quedlinburg result is valid, then that would make two areas (Quedlinburg and Northern Iberia) where both U152>PF6658 and DF27 are found. This may be a coincidence or perhaps something relevant to the origin (or path traveled) for DF27.

Although my previous speculation that RISE560 might belong to a DF27 subclade was dismissed, for insufficient evidence, there was actually some evidence. In the almost inconceivable eventuality that I was right, RISE560 and RISE563 would form another such pair of ancient ZZ11+ cousins, not that far apart. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8476-More-Bell-Beaker-U152-and-one-ZZ11&p=184876&viewfull=1#post184876

R.Rocca
03-22-2018, 05:46 PM
Although my previous speculation that RISE560 might belong to a DF27 subclade was dismissed, for insufficient evidence, there was actually some evidence. In the almost inconceivable eventuality that I was right, RISE560 and RISE563 would form another such pair of ancient ZZ11+ cousins, not that far apart. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8476-More-Bell-Beaker-U152-and-one-ZZ11&p=184876&viewfull=1#post184876

Unfortunately RISE560 could be anything at this point. he is positive for these SNPs that are shared by more than one modern sample:

L21/S145 > DF13 > Z39589 > DF49/S474 > ~26125768-C-A > BY2606 > BY2610
U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z41150 > Z49 > Z142/S211 > FGC22963 > FGC22940 > FGC22942 > 6859970-C-G > 14183741-G-A
L21/S145 > DF13 > L513/S215/DF1 > S5668 > Z16357 > Z16343 > 15433142-G-A
DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > BY653 > 18824725-A-G > 2822687-A-G > F19925
U152/S28 > Z192 > PF6656 > PF6693 > PF6690 > 6870457-G-A

Not lost in all of this is that both U152 and DF27 are both children of Z11 and that they do not share their respective clades with any other SNP, signaling a very rapid/successful expansion.

MitchellSince1893
03-22-2018, 08:11 PM
Bell Beaker I6472 from La Magdalena, Madrid (2500–2000 BCE) is positive for U152>PF6658. What is interesting is that I0805 from Quedlinburg had one derived call for PF6658 (and one ancestral). If the PF6658+ Quedlinburg result is valid, then that would make two areas (Quedlinburg and Northern Iberia) where both U152>PF6658 and DF27 are found. This may be a coincidence or perhaps something relevant to the origin (or path traveled) for DF27.

FWIW, in present day distributions in the FTDNA projects, PF6658 occurs more often than average in Spain. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?36-R1b-U152-Updates-News/page26

R.Rocca
03-22-2018, 09:22 PM
FWIW, in present day distributions in the FTDNA projects, PF6658 occurs more often than average in Spain. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?36-R1b-U152-Updates-News/page26

It makes up 58.5% of U152 in Sardinia as per the Francalacci data and we know it's about a third of U152 in Florence, Tuscany (1000 Genomes Project) so it definitely has a strong presence in Italy as well.

Ric
03-22-2018, 11:57 PM
Unfortunately RISE560 could be anything at this point. he is positive for these SNPs that are shared by more than one modern sample:

L21/S145 > DF13 > Z39589 > DF49/S474 > ~26125768-C-A > BY2606 > BY2610
U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z41150 > Z49 > Z142/S211 > FGC22963 > FGC22940 > FGC22942 > 6859970-C-G > 14183741-G-A
L21/S145 > DF13 > L513/S215/DF1 > S5668 > Z16357 > Z16343 > 15433142-G-A
DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > BY653 > 18824725-A-G > 2822687-A-G > F19925
U152/S28 > Z192 > PF6656 > PF6693 > PF6690 > 6870457-G-A

Not lost in all of this is that both U152 and DF27 are both children of Z11 and that they do not share their respective clades with any other SNP, signaling a very rapid/successful expansion.

Disappointing, for both IO806 and RISE560.

Edit : could that be an effect of a slow growth population of df27 individuals ? A doubling at every generation is maybe too optimistic. Perhaps it was a linear growth for a few generations and very few individuals even 500 years after df27 popped up.

razyn
03-23-2018, 03:13 AM
Disappointing, for both IO806 and RISE560.
Noting that I0805 is U152+ is not disappointing for I0806, the DF27+ guy. In the case of RISE560, my interest was not in the iffy DF27>ZZ12 SNP that Rich mentions, but in an entirely different iffy one, M12124, apparently way down the DF27>Z195>Z295 side of that tree. The subclade seems rather too young for RISE560's ownership of it to be real. And it may be corrupt data; but it was pointed out in a 2014 paper, before the Olalde, Allentoft, or Matthieson papers. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand&p=171987&viewfull=1#post171987


Edit : could that be an effect of a slow growth population of df27 individuals ? A doubling at every generation is maybe too optimistic. Perhaps it was a linear growth for a few generations and very few individuals even 500 years after df27 popped up.

Or could it be an effect of our current underestimation of the age of L11, P312, ZZ11, DF27 and U152? Because we seem fairly consistently to pick up the first hints of some of these guys by spotting their grandsons, etc. (not the forefathers) somewhere in eastern or central Europe, looking autosomally like tourists.

Ric
03-25-2018, 07:44 PM
looking autosomally like tourists.whadaya mean, they were fat ?

Webb
03-26-2018, 01:59 PM
Alex has added Szólád SZ5 SRR6703600 to the Big Tree in the DF27/Z195 group. He is sitting just downstream from FGC39101.

Aldernay
06-21-2018, 08:14 PM
Hello everyone. Sorry, I’ve nothing of any substance to add to this mammoth thread on the likely origins and spread of DF27. I am not a geneticist or even a committed amateur as many here are. I have recently tested as DF27 and I am trying to get my head around the significance of this in terms of my own ‘origins’. I realise yDNA is only one part of the overall picture, but as the unbroken father line, surely it holds some significance.

I have waded through as much of this 5 year old, ever-evolving thread as my head can handle and I recognise that it represents an ongoing conversation between people with a certain level of knowledge that I don’t necessarily share. It is therefore difficult to glean where the current thinking is at.

With that in mind, would anyone here be prepared to hazard a summary on the current ‘state of the art’ on DF27? Not necessarily ‘consensus’ (if that were even possible); a sketch outline on likely timeframes and routes, or even the key faultlines in the current debates would be helpful.

From my own perspective, I am of British origin (S Yorks/N Derbyshire/Peak District) with a surname that has longstanding associations with that part of England where I, my parents, and most of my grandparents were born (exception being my paternal grandmother, who was Irish). Autosomally, my LivingDNA profile lists me as 100% Britain/Ireland, with strong regional connections to where I was born. So my sense is that I have ‘deep roots’ in that region, notwithstanding the effects of industrialisation-era migrations and the sheer distances in time and place from the origins of DF27. What I find interesting is that multiple options are on the table with DF27. My cultural/ethnic background (used with caution) could be Celtic, with an ancestral migration to the isles from Iberia sometime in the Bronze Age; or the DF27 could come from Saxon migrations from Frisia; or from a Norman source; or even of Scandanavian origin. DF27’s presence in Northern/Western Europe is apparently old enough to accommodate any one of these scenarios. I have not tested any deeper than DF27, and a YSEQ subclade test is on the cards when funds are forthcoming. I suppose this would reveal my belonging to younger subclades which may suggest one or another of the origins outlined above...or not. In many ways I feel I am no closer to constructing a personal ‘origin myth’ as I was before I had a DNA test. It has been fascinating dipping my toe in these waters as there is so much I have to learn, and I have a much greater sense of the ‘depth of time’ involved than I had before. Many thanks for considering my request for an ‘executive summary’ of DF27. And anyone game enough to predict a subclade before I test?

A

Ric
06-22-2018, 03:31 AM
Hi Aldernay,

I am far to be the best qualified to answer your question, however there are several problems to consider when you are looking to find the place of origin of df27.
1) DF27 was just one individual and wherever he lived, it may not be possible to find his remains, and assuming that he died where he lived, because people travelled a lot at this time.
2) the expansion rate of the number of DF27 individuals, if it was low, same problem as above
3) Proving the SNP is positive for DF27 is...difficult. In my case, after 2 SNP packs (M343 and Z209) and 1 BigY, my DF27 SNP is only inferred, or presumed positive, as opposed to tested positive. It is presumed positive because of all the other positive SNPs downstream of DF27 that define DF27 subclades, so I cannot be anything else than DF27+, but 3600 years ago, these subclades didn't exist yet, per definition. So assuming DF27 is positive by inference is much more difficult. And if an expensive BigY test cannot call DF27+ with fresh DNA, imagine with fragmented DNA extracted from bones.

So I am not too optimistic they find the first 2 or 3 DF27 'generations', father, sons to g-grandsons. How many individuals could that be, total, 8, 12 ? and with unrecognizable SNPs, good luck.
By the way DF27 is supposed to be 4520 years old, according to http://www.ytree.net/BlockInfo.php this is an age inferred from mutation rate, but is it that precise ? or does it mean 4500 +/- 500 years, as razyn mentioned above ?
But even if we find a lot of very old df27 remains in Spain, as long as they are not 4500 years old, we can suppose that they are not the 'oldest' possible df27 individuals.
For the bigger picture however, there is no doubt anymore that df27' father P312 was present and very well installed in Germany and Benelux among the Bell beaker culture and that these individuals were themselves immigrants from the European Steppe. P312 itself is a (ggggg-great...) son of R1b and there was a link to a Doctorate thesis that shows the presence of R1b in the Altai mountain in the very early Bronze age. But by the late Bronze age, they can't find R1b in the Altai anymore, they had already left, or been replaced.
Anyway the idea that R1b itself originates from Spain can't hold anymore, but ironically DF27 still could, technically, am I wrong ?

razyn
06-22-2018, 05:29 AM
Anyway the idea that R1b itself originates from Spain can't hold anymore, but ironically DF27 still could, technically, am I wrong ?

Yes. Unless by "technically" you mean, in the sense that, technically, pigs could fly. But only if someone strapped them into a rig with wings and a jetpack, and that's very unlikely.

There are many subclades of DF27 that didn't originate any farther west than the Rhine. The brother clade of DF27 is U152, and their male ancestry descends from P312 by way of ZZ11, who also wasn't from Spain. Z40481 is above (older than) ZZ11, and has other progeny. P312 is above Z40481. The whole P312 crowd is from much farther east. Probably, not east of the Volga, but even that is speculative.

Aldernay could get YDNA test results a lot more specific (and recent) than DF27. But they'd have to be very recent indeed to be at all comparable with autosomal kinship; that can link us with distant cousins, related within about four to six generations, if we're lucky. But that many generations get us back to roughly 1800 AD -- a few thousand years short of the Bronze Age. Very few of us have found a YDNA mutation as recent as 1800, so far. It can be done, but DF27 isn't it. Way too old.

Family trees tend not to be older than surnames, and the older they are the less truth there is in them. The Bronze Age is older than most writing -- of family trees, surnames, placenames, or anything else. Our YDNA can reliably get us back that far, one branching event at a time -- but then it's hard to find our matching ancestral YDNA in testable human remains. Those become quite scarce by the time they are several thousand years old.

Arch
06-22-2018, 09:07 AM
Just a thought. Maybe why Spain has a high DF-27 population because its migrant children were separated throughout various cities/villages after their parents had illegally crossed over the Pyrenees and the families never were re-united. The origins of DF-27 probably lies somewhere in Poland and SRY2627 in Bornholm. This is probably the best answer and more accurate than today's research articles.

Ric
06-22-2018, 12:00 PM
Just a thought. Maybe why Spain has a high DF-27 population because its migrant children were separated throughout various cities/villages after their parents had illegally crossed over the Pyrenees and the families never were re-united.
Hmm, that reminds me of something...:confused:

rms2
06-22-2018, 12:08 PM
Hmm, that reminds me of something...:confused:

Before I became a teacher, I had a full career as a police officer. Whenever we arrested a parent of minor children, if the other parent or some other responsible relative was not present to take care of the kids, they were turned over to Child Protective Services. We never took them and placed them in the big boys' or girls' jail just to keep from separating them from their father or mother.

Current propagandistic posturing notwithstanding.

Ric
06-22-2018, 06:33 PM
Before I became a teacher, I had a full career as a police officer.
And now you have a Celtic cross in your avatar. The journey continues.

Aldernay
06-23-2018, 11:16 AM
Thanks everyone

I have a growing appreciation of the gulf between surname/family tree/autosomal information and the deeper yDNA picture (and the deeper still mDNA picture, which I look forward to looking into).

I’m getting a sense that DF27 itself is only going to tell me so much. Deeper testing would appear to be the order of the day.

My interest is in how my particular DF27 ancestor got to Northern Britain, and how long he and his descendants have been here.As it stands, the following scenarios appear to all be in play:

- culturally ‘Celtic’, he arrived in Britain from Iberia via the Atlantic Bronze Age sea routes

- he arrived later in the Bronze Age or the Iron Age from Gaul or the Rhineland

- culturally Anglo-Saxon, he arrived from Jutland or Frisia during or after the Roman period

- culturally Scandanavian, he arrived as a Viking raider, then settler

- culturally Norman, he arrived as part of the Norman conquest (his chimes with ‘family legend’ associated with my surname)

As far as I’m aware, DF27 permits all of these scenarios (in terms of timings and locations), and I’m guessing that testing for a deeper subclade would either support or work against any one of them - at least in terms of suggestive probability rather than iron-clad certainty.

As a Brit there is something reassuring about this undecidability, a cultural heritage that draws from so many sources (and continues to do so).

A

(PS - solidarity with families at the border. Any border, at any time)

rms2
06-23-2018, 02:23 PM
And now you have a Celtic cross in your avatar. The journey continues.

Which means what?

Ric
06-23-2018, 03:10 PM
Which means what?
That you identify with your Celticness. Which is great, what do you think I meant ?

razyn
06-23-2018, 03:53 PM
As far as I’m aware, DF27 permits all of these scenarios (in terms of timings and locations), and I’m guessing that testing for a deeper subclade would either support or work against any one of them - at least in terms of suggestive probability rather than iron-clad certainty.


Testing for your terminal SNP (BigY, FGC Elite or similar exploratory YDNA sequencing) might eliminate many of the listed scenarios. But the DF27 mutation itself is pretty close to 5000 years old, and antedates any of those alternatives. So there are additional possibilities. Also, matching the terminal SNP (below DF27) with a distant cousin of your surname (or its male-line ancestor) would prove that as your line, far enough back to be interesting.

Just testing yourself doesn't prove that your paternal grandfather was legitimate, etc. Some of the GOONS* projects have a YDNA component, that could be helpful for eliminating very recent paternity possibilities, such as a DF27+ Polish airman stationed in England during WWII. Matching some of us blinking colonials, OTOH, can prove your Brit line back to the period of our colonist's departure from your gene pool. That's why Europeans should take more interest than they typically do in tests and comparisons available at FTDNA. Our YDNA can prove things that your (sometimes) older church records and longer paper trails can't.

*Guild Of One-Name Studies. Unfortunately, a good few of the people running those seem to have crania of exceptionally high bone density.

rms2
06-24-2018, 02:51 AM
That you identify with your Celticness. Which is great, what do you think I meant ?

I did not know, which is why I asked.

JonikW
06-24-2018, 10:12 AM
Thanks everyone

I have a growing appreciation of the gulf between surname/family tree/autosomal information and the deeper yDNA picture (and the deeper still mDNA picture, which I look forward to looking into).

I’m getting a sense that DF27 itself is only going to tell me so much. Deeper testing would appear to be the order of the day.

My interest is in how my particular DF27 ancestor got to Northern Britain, and how long he and his descendants have been here.As it stands, the following scenarios appear to all be in play:

- culturally ‘Celtic’, he arrived in Britain from Iberia via the Atlantic Bronze Age sea routes

- he arrived later in the Bronze Age or the Iron Age from Gaul or the Rhineland

- culturally Anglo-Saxon, he arrived from Jutland or Frisia during or after the Roman period

- culturally Scandanavian, he arrived as a Viking raider, then settler

- culturally Norman, he arrived as part of the Norman conquest (his chimes with ‘family legend’ associated with my surname)

As far as I’m aware, DF27 permits all of these scenarios (in terms of timings and locations), and I’m guessing that testing for a deeper subclade would either support or work against any one of them - at least in terms of suggestive probability rather than iron-clad certainty.

As a Brit there is something reassuring about this undecidability, a cultural heritage that draws from so many sources (and continues to do so).

A

(PS - solidarity with families at the border. Any border, at any time)

Hi Aldernay, like you I have deep Y roots in the Peak District and a desire to know where my first forefather to arrive in England came from. I would go for Big Y or similar and pay for YFull to analyse the results. That might give matches in the past 2,000 years on the continent that could give clues as to your Y origin. You can see in my signature how that has worked out for me so far, and there could be more matches to come.

curiousII
06-24-2018, 11:46 PM
I would go for Big Y or similar and pay for YFull to analyse the results.

Good advice, and apparently YFull has gotten around to sending their results out now. It seems they had a momentary overload when Family Tree released its BAM files all of a sudden. Something like that, anyway; I just got my YFull the other day and I'm unchanged, I'm still at Z2573.

That's what Family Tree says, that's what YSEQ says, and now that's what YFull says, too. Sounds unanimous.

lgmayka
06-25-2018, 02:19 AM
I just got my YFull the other day and I'm unchanged, I'm still at Z2573.
The only R-Z2573 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z2573/)* entry on YFull's tree is a Spanish research sample.

curiousII
06-25-2018, 03:12 AM
The only R-Z2573 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z2573/)* entry on YFull's tree is a Spanish research sample.

I saw that myself and have no clue. I'm in the YFull Z2573 group, there's nine members and if REWM wanders by here maybe he can explain that. Of course, he's no longer Z2573 himself since finding a new home downstream. That might have something to do with it, I don't know.

Plus I'll let him handle this as I don't even know if discussing this openly is some kind of GDPR violation. The Z2573 group's private.

lgmayka
06-25-2018, 01:42 PM
I'm in the YFull Z2573 group, there's nine members and if REWM wanders by here maybe he can explain that.
Can you tell us your YF number? Perhaps you are actually in a subclade such as R-FGC32106 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC32106/) ?

curiousII
06-25-2018, 04:57 PM
Can you tell us your YF number? Perhaps you are actually in a subclade such as R-FGC32106 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC32106/) ?

Good idea, and I was going to do that last time but for my ignorance of the GDPR. Anyway, here goes: YF11733.

I recognize the kits in your link to R-FGC32106, I'll let one of them speak of it should they come by here. I PMed REWM with this question, hopefully he'll log on here sooner or later.

But Z2573 is where I'm at, and I'm happy with it. All the way back to the M343 Backbone Pack I took in November, 2015, that's where I bottomed out at. REWM has a good story on how he got farther downstream, but that's his to tell.

REWM
06-25-2018, 07:32 PM
curiousII
YFull lists your Y-Haplogroup as R-P312.
The reason for it is due to the Big Y test gives you no call positions for DF27 and Z2573. It's a known problem that all of the Z2573 men who have taken the Big Y has there.
That is the purpose of the private Z2573 group.

Aldernay
06-25-2018, 08:59 PM
Thank you Jonik

I dare say Big Y would be revealling, however I'm not sure I can justify the expense at the moment. My knowledge is simply not at the level where I could fully appreciate the results. I may just go for the YSEQ DF27 test and see what that tells me. Your Living DNA results were interesting to read. To compare, mine are (cautious):
South Wales Border-related: 54.8%
South-West Scotland-related: 19.7%
East Anglia-related: 11.9%
Cornwall-related: 10.1%
Unassigned: 3.4%

A

curiousII
06-25-2018, 09:42 PM
curiousII
YFull lists your Y-Haplogroup as R-P312.
The reason for it is due to the Big Y test gives you no call positions for DF27 and Z2573. It's a known problem that all of the Z2573 men who have taken the Big Y has there.
That is the purpose of the private Z2573 group.

All right, thanks. I guess that's what you were telling me in your emails. So how do I get YFull to find my Z2573? There's no way to, is there? I wouldn't even be able to get into your Z2573 group if I hadn't backed up my M343 Backbone with YSEQ, would I?

What's going with Family Tree, Big Y, and DF27, anyway? All the changes and modifications it's done to its tests, they still skip DF27? Why would they do that?

REWM
06-26-2018, 12:13 AM
Yes, that is what I was telling you in the emails. YFull can only give you a analysis of what's your bam file that has been tested for which Z2573 has not been. They don't manually add SNPs. There is talk from them about linking with YSEQ this summer but I don't know how that will work. I would not worry about that since you know you are positive for Z2573 from other testing. I think you should concentrate on the many novel SNPs they found. There is obviously another branch below Z2573 you belong to.

If you had only done the Big Y then no I would not have let you into the group until you had tested Z2573 positive.

I don't think DF27 is skipped. It is just a hard SNP to test for and usually does not show up in results.

curiousII
06-26-2018, 01:44 AM
If you had only done the Big Y then no I would not have let you into the group until you had tested Z2573 positive.

OK, but if I can ask, how did you get YFull to accept your Z2573? Was it after you found a SNP downstream, or before? I can probably double-check myself once I get used to how YFull works, but am I the only one in the Z2573 group that's P312 haplogroup? Or, maybe due to the new privacy laws I shouldn't even ask.

I tried logging in to GEDMatch the other day and hit that new disclaimer page. I didn't go past it, and I doubt that I'll do any comparisons there anymore. I was having a lot of fun with those ancient DNA kits, but I guess that's fairly well gone now.

Anyway, thanks again for answering. You've been really helpful over the past couple of years.

edit: OK, just saw where all your group are on the R-L151 page. Got it, that's pretty interesting how that works.

lgmayka
06-26-2018, 03:13 PM
YFull can only give you a analysis of what's your bam file that has been tested for which Z2573 has not been. They don't manually add SNPs.
That's not exactly true. YFull has, in the past, corrected the position of subclades based on test results from sources other than the BAM files themselves. Here's an example:

YF02497 and YF04587 formed a new subclade (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y18894/). However, YFull did not know exactly where to places this subclade, because the Big Y often misses the location of Z49. I wrote to YFull, pointing out the publicly available Y-SNP results of one of the two kits, including the Z49+ result. YFull then correctly placed the new subclade downstream from R-Z49.


I don't think DF27 is skipped.
I think it is--the Big Y often does not examine that location.

REWM
06-26-2018, 08:03 PM
OK, but if I can ask, how did you get YFull to accept your Z2573? Was it after you found a SNP downstream, or before? I can probably double-check myself once I get used to how YFull works, but am I the only one in the Z2573 group that's P312 haplogroup? Or, maybe due to the new privacy laws I shouldn't even ask.

I tried logging in to GEDMatch the other day and hit that new disclaimer page. I didn't go past it, and I doubt that I'll do any comparisons there anymore. I was having a lot of fun with those ancient DNA kits, but I guess that's fairly well gone now.

Anyway, thanks again for answering. You've been really helpful over the past couple of years.

edit: OK, just saw where all your group are on the R-L151 page. Got it, that's pretty interesting how that works.

I did not get YFull to accept me as being Z2573 until I found a match for FGC32092/Z29624 below it that the 1k Genomes men had. It's the same for FTDNA where by I am only presumed positive on their tree. The only place I tested positive for Z2573 has been YSEQ.

No you are not the only P312 in the group and I would not be surprised if their are others who are not.

REWM
06-26-2018, 08:09 PM
That's not exactly true. YFull has, in the past, corrected the position of subclades based on test results from sources other than the BAM files themselves. Here's an example:

YF02497 and YF04587 formed a new subclade (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y18894/). However, YFull did not know exactly where to places this subclade, because the Big Y often misses the location of Z49. I wrote to YFull, pointing out the publicly available Y-SNP results of one of the two kits, including the Z49+ result. YFull then correctly placed the new subclade downstream from R-Z49.

I think it is--the Big Y often does not examine that location.

I was not aware that YFull would do that.

You may be right about DF27. I thought it was just unlikely to get a result for it

Arch
07-01-2018, 02:39 PM
:) It does.

Arch
07-01-2018, 02:44 PM
Did DF27 arise during the Urnfield Culture period? Or is it more likely the timeframe for when SRY2627 mutated into existence?

rms2
07-05-2018, 10:45 AM
Did DF27 arise during the Urnfield Culture period? Or is it more likely the timeframe for when SRY2627 mutated into existence?

DF27 predates Urnfield by over a thousand years.

DF27 turned up in Kurgan Bell Beaker man I0806 from Quedlinburg, Germany, 2431-2150 BC (that is a 14C date). That is the oldest DF27 I know of.

wilderwill
09-03-2018, 08:00 PM
Question, I am new to this. I read about the "Split" of DF 27 due to differing haplotypes DYS437 / DYS448 Y-STR's. what are the STR values on each side of this split? Any idea when and where where this happened? Middle to late bronze age?
My DF27 line splits to Z195/ Z196 >L176.2>Z29707. My male ancestors go back to Cornwall UK five generations that I can find. I am assuming this Split happened somewhere in Spain.
What would be the Haplogroup divisions be as a consequence of the "Split".
Thanks

Webb
09-04-2018, 12:52 AM
Question, I am new to this. I read about the "Split" of DF 27 due to differing haplotypes DYS437 / DYS448 Y-STR's. what are the STR values on each side of this split? Any idea when and where where this happened? Middle to late bronze age?
My DF27 line splits to Z195/ Z196 >L176.2>Z29707. My male ancestors go back to Cornwall UK five generations that I can find. I am assuming this Split happened somewhere in Spain.
What would be the Haplogroup divisions be as a consequence of the "Split".
Thanks

I think your best bet would be to study Alex Williamson’s Big Tree. It is a comprehensive tree of P312 individuals who have done full genome testing, Big Y, and 1000 genome kits. While some STR patterns can give hints to snp predictions, STRs as a whole can be unreliable as they can move in both directions randomly. Here’s a link to your specific block and those kits who are positive for your snp. If you click the block you will see an Age estimation by McDonald. Most of the blocks have Age estimates, some don’t. Your block is around 600 B.C.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=919&star=false

wilderwill
09-04-2018, 04:00 AM
Webb - Thanks.

R.Rocca
10-09-2018, 07:26 PM
When overlaying the ancient U152+ L2+ samples (red circles) over the Bell Beaker East Province, I noticed that the Quedlinburg, Germany DF27+ sample (blue triangle) falls within the Mittelelbe-Saale Province which has archaeological relations to the Eastern Province. Coincidentally, the word "related" appears right below the sample's location, and we all know that DF27 and U152 are "related" via Z11.


http://r1b.org/imgs/DF27-Mittelelbe-Saale-Province.png

razyn
10-10-2018, 05:49 PM
On a wholly different topic (Baltic hydronyms), lukaszM has posted a map today that shows river courses farther to the east, that I suspect are important, if we are ever going to view the early P312 and U106 migrations rationally in terms of the geological obstacle course that had to be navigated. I can't just paste in the image, it's his url and not mine; but I can link the post that basically is nothing but that map: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2573-New-DNA-Papers-General-Discussion-Thread&p=505410&viewfull=1#post505410

Since I have somewhat (not entirely) facetiously mentioned Pinsk as being probably closer to the birthplace of DF27 than Barcelona is, I will note that Pinsk is visible on the map, near the head of the navigable Pripyat River in a very large marshland. [The fact that some of the neighborhood got radioactive during the Chernobyl disaster was not a Bronze Age impediment.] Nearby (as such things go), one may embark on a long float to the Baltic Sea, or other routes to "central" and western Europe, via the Mukhavets (at present Brest, Belarus) and Western Bug; or perhaps via the Neman River northward past Vilnius (on a different branch) to the Baltic. My remark about Pinsk was here (yesterday): https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15583-Ancient-DF27-ZZ12-DNA-sample&p=504644&viewfull=1#post504644

And that, in turn, had some bearing on my vote for locus D, in the general Pinsk/Brest/Bialystok vicinity -- pulling the Venn diagram's center, of areas described as D, G and H, northward -- in the poll started by MitchellSince1893 (and more or less fizzled out by now): https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15293-Which-of-the-following-choices-which-is-your-best-guess-for-where-P312-originated&p=502384&viewfull=1#post502384

Anyway, all of this stuff is interrelated, whether our R1b-L11 ancestors walked, paddled or sailed from the Pontic steppe to the Atlantic Fringe. I'm not trying to be contrarian about it; just looking for the options, and trying not to squeeze every possible theory through the Iron Gates.

R.Rocca
10-10-2018, 11:44 PM
On a wholly different topic (Baltic hydronyms), lukaszM has posted a map today that shows river courses farther to the east, that I suspect are important, if we are ever going to view the early P312 and U106 migrations rationally in terms of the geological obstacle course that had to be navigated. I can't just paste in the image, it's his url and not mine; but I can link the post that basically is nothing but that map: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2573-New-DNA-Papers-General-Discussion-Thread&p=505410&viewfull=1#post505410

Since I have somewhat (not entirely) facetiously mentioned Pinsk as being probably closer to the birthplace of DF27 than Barcelona is, I will note that Pinsk is visible on the map, near the head of the navigable Pripyat River in a very large marshland. [The fact that some of the neighborhood got radioactive during the Chernobyl disaster was not a Bronze Age impediment.] Nearby (as such things go), one may embark on a long float to the Baltic Sea, or other routes to "central" and western Europe, via the Mukhavets (at present Brest, Belarus) and Western Bug; or perhaps via the Neman River to Vilnius, etc. My remark about Pinsk was here (yesterday): https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15583-Ancient-DF27-ZZ12-DNA-sample&p=504644&viewfull=1#post504644

And that, in turn, had some bearing on my vote for locus D, in the general Pinsk/Brest/Bialystok vicinity -- pulling the Venn diagram's center, of areas described as D, G and H, northward -- in the poll started by MitchellSince1893 (and more or less fizzled out by now): https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15293-Which-of-the-following-choices-which-is-your-best-guess-for-where-P312-originated&p=502384&viewfull=1#post502384

Anyway, all of this stuff is interrelated, whether our R1b-L11 ancestors walked, paddled or sailed from the Pontic steppe to the Atlantic Fringe. I'm not trying to be contrarian about it; just looking for the options, and trying not to squeeze every possible theory through the Iron Gates.

Corded Ware has been tested in Poland and it has been solidly R1a and I2a2. One extremely low quality sample was some sort of R1b, but all cautions apply. Also, Corded Ware has a Baltic autosomal component that is not found in Bell Beaker samples. For those reasons, I think the Baltic route is less likely now that it was just a few years ago. Maybe more samples will change that. We'll have to wait and see.

razyn
10-11-2018, 03:55 AM
Well, I've been talking about P312 (and his patriarch L11, and at least some of his grandsons). Not about some archaeological culture that happens to have been prominent in the terrain through which a theoretical Pinsk P312 might well have passed, westbound and perhaps pretty swiftly, in a different and slightly later time frame than the Corded Ware period. And (if that happened) not to be equated or confused with some Corded Ware dead guys in Poland, who have been sequenced. Basically, it's an alternate way to get from the steppe to the Vistula, Elbe, and lower Rhine without dealing with the Carpathians, unless one just wanted to. R1b "north of the Black Sea" need not be near its shores. R1b in the Dnieper watershed need not be near its mouth; what if it was in Pinsk? That sort of thing.

I only proposed Pinsk because MitchellSince1893 had accused us (on the Poll thread, not this one) of not proposing anyplace. So, it's someplace.

MitchellSince1893
10-11-2018, 03:07 PM
I only proposed Pinsk because MitchellSince1893 had accused us (on the Poll thread, not this one) of not proposing anyplace. So, it's someplace.



If some one (like you, Rocca and a few others) posted a specific location, I would use that. Otherwise I would use the center of the circle in question and give it a weight based on number of votes remaining.

Well, that explains your annoyed comments about the "fizzled out" thread and how I "edited my posts". You thought my post above was an attack on you. It wasn't


I was saying the opposite of how you interpreted it. You and Richard were the few that had provided specific locations...you said where the 3 circles intersected and Richard said the SE corner of C where closest to G. That's where I put your 2 votes when calculating the position.

The way you interpreted my post would be out of character for me and counter productive.

Webb
10-11-2018, 04:02 PM
Café Minsk-Pinsk in Smolensk.

MitchellSince1893
10-11-2018, 06:05 PM
I think the Pripyat River (branch of the Dnieper which flows through Pinsk), is a good candidate for staying close to the "Goldilocks" zone and ending up where P312 branches have rapid growth. It's on the southern side of R1a and north of Z2103 dominated areas to the south.

razyn
10-15-2018, 03:16 PM
We were getting pretty close to agreement on the Pripyat as a potential route west for the earlier P312 (or maybe L11) clades, in this previous conversation: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11766-Poll-Bell-Beaker-Models&p=358756&viewfull=1#post358756

That wasn't specific to DF27, and my first suggestion of Pinsk was. But the "explosion" of major R1b branches (that have ended up dominant in much of western Europe) probably was not confined to a tight area. The circles and arrows one can draw on a map are a little too static for describing an L11 "tree" that may have been more like the scatter pattern of a fragmentation grenade. The most significant mutations may have happened in guys who were in the process of migrating. Lots of luck pinning that down by locating their buried remains. But we may at least hope for some useful refinement of the "where from, where to" evidence already in hand.

razyn
11-05-2018, 05:40 PM
Well, that explains your annoyed comments about the "fizzled out" thread and how I "edited my posts". You thought my post above was an attack on you. It wasn't

What I actually thought was that you didn't have a sufficiently exact proposal on the table; so I made one that was both exact, and a little wacky. I wasn't mad, or anything. It was based on the grammar of your sentence, "If some one (like you, Rocca and a few others) posted a specific location, I would use that." Usually I just ignore a parenthetical phrase, and diagram the basic sentence. But what you meant was more like "If someone posted a specific location (as you, Rocca and a few others have attempted), I would use that." I didn't get that meaning, from the way you expressed it, but I wasn't annoyed. Also it was 10:55 PM, my time. Sometimes I am imbibing Geo. Dickel Tennessee whisky around that time. If so, I'm not just old and grumpy, but may even be old grumpy and tipsy. In the mid-morning, I may be old grumpy and overcaffeinated. People who are with me at that time of day (usually at rehearsals of Russian instrumental music) have noticed that. To quote one of the members of Bonnie and Clyde's gang (in that movie), "It doesn't mean I'm not a nice person."

Webb
11-05-2018, 06:25 PM
What I actually thought was that you didn't have a sufficiently exact proposal on the table; so I made one that was both exact, and a little wacky. I wasn't mad, or anything. It was based on the grammar of your sentence, "If some one (like you, Rocca and a few others) posted a specific location, I would use that." Usually I just ignore a parenthetical phrase, and diagram the basic sentence. But what you meant was more like "If someone posted a specific location (as you, Rocca and a few others have attempted), I would use that." I didn't get that meaning, from the way you expressed it, but I wasn't annoyed. Also it was 10:55 PM, my time. Sometimes I am imbibing Geo. Dickel Tennessee whisky around that time. If so, I'm not just old and grumpy, but may even be old grumpy and tipsy. In the mid-morning, I may be old grumpy and overcaffeinated. People who are with me at that time of day (usually at rehearsals of Russian instrumental music) have noticed that. To quote one of the members of Bonnie and Clyde's gang (in that movie), "It doesn't mean I'm not a nice person."

Maybe the "old" would explain the lack of response to, what I thought was a very witty, quote from "Get Smart", starring Steve Carell. I may need to quote a movie that isn't quite as new, next time.

MitchellSince1893
11-05-2018, 06:26 PM
Wherever it may be (somewhere between the Azores, Kola Peninsula, Iceland, and Kyrgyzstan...a hyperbole), I look forward to the day when we can finally put the P312/L11 origin thing to bed.
Of course there will always be the "flat earth" types that will refuse to accept the outcome if it doesn't match their view. Personally I don't care where it ends up...just have my opinion based on the available data...which shifts as new data comes in.

razyn
11-05-2018, 10:24 PM
Maybe the "old" would explain the lack of response to, what I thought was a very witty, quote from "Get Smart", starring Steve Carell.

Yes. Yes, it does. I for one would never have guessed this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILGs1oMy2zQ. And I thought Don Adams was Maxwell Smart.

On the other hand, I may have imagined that C.W. Moss was asserting his basic niceness, after shooting a banker or blowing up a car or whatever. Saw that movie a pretty long time ago. But I'm sure somebody, in some movie, said that.

curiousII
01-20-2019, 10:09 AM
Can you tell us your YF number? Perhaps you are actually in a subclade such as R-FGC32106 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC32106/) ?

I took a WGS at YSEQ and YFull just posted my results. My new number is YF17098 and with that test I am Z2573* (everything downstream came back negative). I've emailed REWM asking how my haplogroup was found: by suggestion or by test? I was allowed into the Z2573 YFull group as the admin there knew of my M343 Backbone result at Family Tree, but as we saw from this earlier conversation YFull still had me at P312.

Anyhow, this is the thread where I first found out about YSEQ years ago. Thanks, I'm really pleased with this latest test. I really just got my genome sequenced for only $740 and found six more novel SNPs, even:

chrY:3886880 C T A23918
chrY:9929780 G A A23919
chrY:14563154 C T A23920
chrY:15449544 C T A23921
chrY:15663409 C T A23922
chrY:20498535 C T A23923

I'm content with Family Tree, not knocking anything, but they're really losing business by not offering any genome sequencing options. There must be a reason for that, I guess.

edit: This is worthy of an edit-YFull posted my new WGS STRs and found a match! I have no Big Y matches at Family Tree, so I don't even check for that any longer.

Technically I have two new YFull matches but the other one is me from my first test. That one reads 371 STRs compared with 0 differences and 0.0 distance. So I match myself pretty good. My other new match is at 27 differences out of the 296 STRs compared and the distance is 0.091. This person's haplogroup is downstream from Z2572, which means I have no clue as to how many centuries ago our relation was.

But, I do have a match with genome sequencing that I don't with the Big Y, and sequencing did find novel SNPs that the Big Y didn't. In my case the coverage that YSEQ gave my chromosome was vital to my results and now I have an even better idea of who and what I am, which is the whole point of taking these tests in my case. I uploaded my WGS to DNA.Land and got a vastly different result than what they gave me there from my Family Tree. Or, I think it's a great difference. My new vs. my old test at GEDmatch doesn't seem as at-odds with each other as what I get at DNA.Land.

Yeah, this is fun.

razyn
10-06-2019, 02:16 PM
I noticed this in the New DNA Papers forum today, and thought I'd better get ahead of the flood of Iberian-origin fans citing it as proof of anything new. (Apart from the actual topic of the paper: the way the physical geography chops the genetic maps of southwestern Europe and northwestern Africa like a meat cleaver.) https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?709-New-DNA-Papers&p=608057&viewfull=1#post608057

I guess it will be cited as Garcia-Fernandez et al (2019), but anyhow Calafell is the listed co-author -- as he was a co-author of the much discussed Solé-Morata et al (2017b), listed in the extensive bibliography of the new paper... and almost certainly the source of the authors' assertion that the Iberan majority haplogroup (DF27) is about 4000 years old, and of local origin. [The same bibliography, oddly enough, doesn't cite Olalde et al (2018), a paper that effectively laid that notion to rest, after its NextGen data revealed what was really going on in the Bronze Age.]

But the older theory keeps rising, zombie-like, from its unquiet grave. Here it comes again.

ArmandoR1b
10-06-2019, 04:46 PM
I noticed this in the New DNA Papers forum today, and thought I'd better get ahead of the flood of Iberian-origin fans citing it as proof of anything new. (Apart from the actual topic of the paper: the way the physical geography chops the genetic maps of southwestern Europe and northwestern Africa like a meat cleaver.) https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?709-New-DNA-Papers&p=608057&viewfull=1#post608057

I guess it will be cited as Garcia-Fernandez et al (2019), but anyhow Calafell is the listed co-author -- as he was a co-author of the much discussed Solé-Morata et al (2017b), listed in the extensive bibliography of the new paper... and almost certainly the source of the authors' assertion that the Iberan majority haplogroup (DF27) is about 4000 years old, and of local origin. [The same bibliography, oddly enough, doesn't cite Olalde et al (2018), a paper that effectively laid that notion to rest, after its NextGen data revealed what was really going on in the Bronze Age.]

But the older theory keeps rising, zombie-like, from its unquiet grave. Here it comes again.

The study doesn't directly say that R1b-DF27 originated in Iberia or that Iberia is the local origin of DF27. Although the implication is there it doesn't use any new data to provide evidence to support the theory of an Iberian origin. So this study can't be used for that purpose. It even has the a statement that if used universally, instead of for Basques, would be accurate - "While it seems clear when R1b-DF27 appeared in the population, where it originated may be more difficult to pinpoint" then it goes on to say, in different words, that a local origin among Basques for DF27 is disproven based on low internal diversity. "the high frequencies of R1b-DF27 among Basques could be better explained by drift". Then it goes on to talk about things unrelated to the evidence of the origin of DF27. I do agree with the conclusion of the unrelated subject matter. It's unfortunate that the authors did not apply the statement about the difficulty of pinpointing the origin of DF27 towards the uncertainty of which modern country it was actually born in due to lack of evidence and that the source and highest frequency can be, and are in this specific case, two different locations. Some of the main problems that prevent proof of location of origin are 1.) decay of the DNA of the ancient Bronze Age specimens causing too many SNPs without calls on the Y chromosome and 2.) too many Chalcolothic and Bronze Age archaeological sites without specimens, and 3.) the range of dates resulting from C14 testing is too broad. Those three problems should be stated as evidence that the location of origin of DF27 is uncertain.

It is rather perplexing that authors that write about DF27, ever since Olade et al. 2018, do not touch upon the a combination of the phylogeny of DF27 and that all P312 and DF27 specimens also have Steppe autosomal DNA and they appeared simultaneously in the specimens in the exact same period in western Europe leads to a conclusion that DF7 could have been born anywhere P312 and Steppe autosomal DNA appears in the Bronze Age. The phylogeny of DF27 and the massive migration from the Eurasian Steppe are touched upon in this study but not as proof of the uncertainty of the location of origin of DF27. The obvious conclusion should be directly stated as some others are.

Also, the authors state that DF27 "With independent samples (our samples vs. the 1000 Genome Project dataset) and independent methods (variation in 15 STRs vs. whole Y chromosome sequences),the age of R1b-DF27 is firmly grounded around 4000–4500 ya" 4500 ybp is also what shows up at YFull for DF27 and it is also what Ian McDonald predicted at one time. It is what shows up after clicking on DF27 at http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=29

Something else the article touched on is new procedures being developed for physically capturing the Y chromosome. I hold on to hope that some of the specimens currently without a call for DF27 and it's subclades will become available and that future studies will include a better capture of Y chromosome SNPs not currently captured.

MitchellSince1893
10-06-2019, 05:08 PM
"After learning she was pregnant, and knowing the implications and importance to her descendants 4500 years later, DF-27's mother made a mad dash from Germany, across France, sailing down the Rhone, to cross the Pyrenees before giving birth to DF27"

Problem solved :biggrin1:

razyn
10-06-2019, 05:57 PM
The study doesn't directly say that R1b-DF27 originated in Iberia or that Iberia is the local origin of DF27. Although the implication is there it doesn't use any new data to provide evidence to support the theory of an Iberian origin.

Thanks for the detailed analysis of the actual paper, which I haven't seen -- the link posted today took me to the abstract and the bibliography, only. I could see this in the abstract:

R1b-DF27 is prevalent in the Iberian Peninsula (40–70%), while its frequency drops to <15% north of the Pyrenees. We have estimated its age at ~4000 years ago, in line with ancient DNA discoveries and pointing to the population upheaval of the Bronze Age as a plausible agent in its origin and dispersion.
I feared, and still fear, that Gaska and a few other people would take that as proof that the samples of that age that have now been found in Iberia would prove their earlier fantasies, some having their origins in Ice Age refugia, Basques being present since the Neolithic, Celtic from the West, etc. -- and get us bogged down again, rather than simply trying to sort the DF27 phylogeny from its own evidence.

sktibo
10-12-2019, 01:34 AM
Has there been any major news on DF27 in the past six months or so? It appears that the French DNA studies didn't include Y DNA but did we get any Y DNA info out of that at all? Of course I'm not exactly helping the situation myself having still neglected to test my paternal line beyond the surface while having some understanding of my ancestral geography on the paternal line. I'll have to get some money together...

Many thanks.

Arch
10-23-2019, 07:18 AM
Obtaining DNA from French citizens is still problematic. The only option is for them to go outside of the country and test, or have relatives living outside of France take the DNA tests. There are ways to "beat the system" but no matter what, it's pretty annoying.

Dalluin
10-23-2019, 10:19 PM
Obtaining DNA from French citizens is still problematic. The only option is for them to go outside of the country and test, or have relatives living outside of France take the DNA tests. There are ways to "beat the system" but no matter what, it's pretty annoying.
inside/outside is not a real reason : there are sometimes complications with a few of commercial testing compagnies for french people fellows but not all (especially the good ones !! to begin, with no complementary costs) !! DNA-tests are still forbidden in principle and many people are afraid that theirs DNA results end up on the FBI databases (or equivalent): I met plenty of french fellows interested but first mistrustful with numerical misappropriation of personal data !! French scientists suffer from financial shortcomings !!

jaumemiquel
10-26-2019, 04:55 PM
you guys are all looking for the "origin" of R-DF27 in Europe when there were no country delineations 4500 years ago. Who gives a shit if Df27 was born in what is now present-day Germany, France or Italy or Spain? the FACT IS DF27 PROLIFERATED AND BLOOMED IN SPAIN. PERIOD. As i mentioned in my own posts, the fact that Spain hosts 70% of DF27, that equates to 12 million DF27 souls (Ireland only has 4 million people not all descendants of P312) WE ARE THE TRUE AND LARGE POPULATION OF CELTICS...living in Spain alone. We the Spaniards are the true descendants, most numerous and heirs of a great warrior/conqueror race that swept through Europe long ago. DF27 is Iberian. live with it. and no...they had no red hair and light eyes, they were light skin, dark hair and eyes like most Spaniards, Welsh, Irish, Portuguese and french are today. A mamar por ahi ya hombre!

razyn
10-26-2019, 06:09 PM
Who gives a shit if Df27 was born in what is now present-day Germany, France or Italy or Spain?

Some few millions of people whose ancestry is DF27+, but not Iberian. The fact that Spain (or some area within Spain) is 70% DF27 doesn't mean that the rest of Europe is now, or was in the Bronze Age, 0% DF27+. All descendants of the same founder are "true descendants;" and that founder wasn't from the westernmost peninsula of Europe.

Chad Rohlfsen
10-26-2019, 06:53 PM
My DF27 is Scandinavian. Closest match to me, so far as I know, is a Finn.

MitchellSince1893
10-26-2019, 08:41 PM
Just curious, if I replace a few words, how it would sound...

you guys are all looking for the "origin" of R-U152 in Europe when there were no country delineations 4500 years ago. Who gives a shit if U152 was born in what is now present-day Germany, France or Italy or Spain? the FACT IS U152 PROLIFERATED AND BLOOMED IN ITALY. PERIOD. As i mentioned in my own posts, the fact that Italy hosts 70% of Italy, that equates to 12 million U152 souls (Ireland only has 4 million people not all descendants of P312) WE ARE THE TRUE AND LARGE POPULATION OF ITALO_CELTS...living in Italy alone. We the Italians are the true descendants, most numerous and heirs of a great warrior/conqueror race that swept through Europe long ago. U152 is Italian. live with it. and no...they had no red hair and light eyes, they were light skin, dark hair and eyes like most Italians, Welsh, Irish, Portuguese and french are today. Per succhiare lì e amico!

Hmm. It just might work. :biggrin1:

Just kidding.

MitchellSince1893
10-26-2019, 09:12 PM
Or better yet


you guys are all looking for the "origin" of R-DF27 in Europe when there were no country delineations 4500 years ago. The FACT IS DF27 WAS BORN IN RUSSIA PERIOD. ...We the Russians are the true and heirs of a great warrior/conqueror race that swept through Europe long ago. DF27 is Russian. live with it.

jaumemiquel
10-27-2019, 01:44 AM
Indeed it's true as well for northern Italians, Bravo! I'm impressed how you improved plagiarism...LOL

MitchellSince1893
10-27-2019, 10:23 PM
For my ZZ11 brethren, I did this same exercise for U152 in another thread.

Top 40 countries/territories/groups in the FTDNA database with at least 99 DF27 samples
Rank, Country, DF27 % of total samples, Total Samples, DF27 Samples
1 Portugal 22.07% 793 175
2 Puerto Rico 20.16% 124 25
3 Spain 18.67% 2,137 399
4 Brazil 16.91% 136 23
5 France 12.35% 2,689 332
6 Mexico 9.53% 745 71
7 Belgium 7.88% 368 29
8 United States 6.95% 4,635 322
9 Canada 6.74% 341 23
10 Northern Ireland 6.35% 929 59
11 England 5.74% 11,596 666
12 United Kingdom 4.75% 4,270 203
13 Scotland 4.60% 6,239 287
14 Switzerland 4.56% 1,359 62
15 Wales 4.36% 964 42
16 Netherlands 4.28% 1,027 44
17 Ireland 3.51% 8,462 297
18 Germany 2.73% 7,666 209
19 Denmark 2.54% 591 15
20 Czech Republic 2.38% 546 13
21 Italy 2.17% 2,856 62
22 Sweden 1.98% 3,136 62
23 United States (Native American) 1.70% 824 14
24 Algeria 1.55% 193 3
25 Belarus 1.46% 615 9
26 Hungary 1.31% 838 11
27 Norway 1.27% 1,658 21
28 Poland 1.19% 2,771 33
29 Bulgaria 1.19% 337 4
30 Austria 1.00% 502 5
31 Ukraine 0.98% 1,324 13
32 Latvia 0.63% 160 1
33 Finland 0.61% 2,780 17
34 Slovakia 0.60% 334 2
35 Romania 0.48% 419 2
36 Greece 0.47% 645 3
37 Philippines 0.46% 218 1
38 Lithuania 0.40% 741 3
39 Armenia 0.38% 531 2
40 Iran 0.32% 310 1

NOTE: Luxembourg would have been ranked between Switzerland and Wales at 4.44%. It only has 45 samples, 2 of which were DF27.

Associated map
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ac/28/d4/ac28d4b558cb182c7564e67883658787.png

ArmandoR1b
10-29-2019, 03:47 AM
For my ZZ11 brethren, I did this same exercise for U152 in another thread.

Top 40 countries/territories/groups in the FTDNA database with at least 99 DF27 samples
Rank, Country, DF27 % of total samples, Total Samples, DF27 Samples
1 Portugal 22.07% 793 175
2 Puerto Rico 20.16% 124 25
3 Spain 18.67% 2,137 399
4 Brazil 16.91% 136 23
5 France 12.35% 2,689 332
6 Mexico 9.53% 745 71

NOTE: Luxembourg would have been ranked between Switzerland and Wales at 4.44%. It only has 45 samples, 2 of which were DF27.



The FTDNA public tree doesn't only use Big Y tested people and therefore there are a lot of people without SNP testing down to DF27 and it's subclades. Some did the Deep Clade testing and some did individual SNPs testing. So your results are flawed. The YFull tree is better source in this respect since there is a clear result if they are unknown for DF27 or P312+ DF27? and there is obviously no question as to whether or not they were tested for P312 and so on.

Here is what I get using the YFull tree. I can get stats for other countries if needed. It would be nice to see these stats in a heat map.



Country
DF27 % of total samples
Total Samples
DF27 Samples


Portugal
41.13%
231
95


Spain
35.23%
193
68


Latin America
26.37%
311
82


France
14.29%
182
26


U.K.
12.85%
397
51


Denmark
11.48%
61
7


England
8.61%
743
64


Belgium
8.33%
36
3


Netherlands
8.11%
111
9


Scotland
7.77%
592
46


Belarus
5.94%
101
6


Czech R
5.88%
85
5


Italy
5.24%
515
27


Germany
4.88%
471
23


Ireland
4.23%
639
27


Wales
3.57%
56
2


Romania
3.23%
31
1


Switzerland
2.67%
75
2


Slovakia
2.63%
38
1


Ukraine
2.55%
196
5


Sweden
2.04%
1029
21


Hungary
1.92%
52
1


Poland
1.56%
384
6


Norway
1.30%
308
4


Finland
0.95%
948
9


Russia
0.25%
810
2


Croatia
0.00%
27
0


Slovenia
0.00%
23
0


Luxembourg
0.00%
1
0

anglesqueville
10-29-2019, 04:09 PM
Obtaining DNA from French citizens is still problematic. The only option is for them to go outside of the country and test, or have relatives living outside of France take the DNA tests. There are ways to "beat the system" but no matter what, it's pretty annoying.

:first: Thanks, you made my day! The next time I'll buy a kit I'll think to ask my Scottish friends, I'm sure they will have a good laugh.

anglesqueville
10-29-2019, 04:18 PM
you guys are all looking for the "origin" of R-DF27 in Europe when there were no country delineations 4500 years ago. Who gives a shit if Df27 was born in what is now present-day Germany, France or Italy or Spain? the FACT IS DF27 PROLIFERATED AND BLOOMED IN SPAIN. PERIOD. As i mentioned in my own posts, the fact that Spain hosts 70% of DF27, that equates to 12 million DF27 souls (Ireland only has 4 million people not all descendants of P312) WE ARE THE TRUE AND LARGE POPULATION OF CELTICS...living in Spain alone. We the Spaniards are the true descendants, most numerous and heirs of a great warrior/conqueror race that swept through Europe long ago. DF27 is Iberian. live with it. and no...they had no red hair and light eyes, they were light skin, dark hair and eyes like most Spaniards, Welsh, Irish, Portuguese and french are today. A mamar por ahi ya hombre!

So pleasing! Since the banishment of Gaska we were missing of these so nice and entertaining manifestations of Iberic nationalism. Clever and patient people are so boring, thanks for giving us a little fun.

sktibo
10-29-2019, 08:03 PM
I still find it incredibly interesting how fashionable claiming some form of Celtic ancestry is. I personally hope that we will see the end of the theory that the "Celts" spread from Central Europe into Western and North-Western Europe so that an end can be brought to all the ridiculous claims that one group or another are the "true Celts." "U152 are the true Celts, DF27 are the true Celts, even U106 are the true Celts." I meet a guy with Austrian ancestry, he says "I'm a Celt though, like one of the true Celts from the Alps." The list goes on. We must look at this from what we know for sure: the Iron Age Celts from Britain, the ones who were definitely Celts, that we have sampled were L21. L21 definitely seems to be tied to these much sought after "true Celts" but that is all we can say with certainty. I'm DF27, and I'm very enthusiastic about all things Celtic, so I would love it if there was a definite DF27 connection to the speakers of Celtic languages. However, with certainty, I do not think there is. Maybe one day there will be. Today, I'm not sure, so I would rather not invent theories based upon my own wishful thinking.

Generalissimo
10-29-2019, 10:21 PM
Pretty sure R1b is native to Europe.

I mean, it's been there since the Upper Paleolithic.

alan
10-29-2019, 10:39 PM
Key problem in studying Celticity is the traditional central European but illogical school of approaching it. The rational way is working from what you know (who was speaking Celtic with no doubts about it at the opening of history in any given area in the final centuries BC-100AD) and then looking at those peoples deeper origins through the archaeology of those areas. The traditional but very bad way is to decide what archaeological cultures are Celtic c. 1200-500BC based on a few thin classical references of uncertain exact meaning then trying to project the spread of Celtic forwards by the spread of those cultures.

Johnny ola
10-29-2019, 10:49 PM
[Quote of deleted post removed by Moderator]

R is not native to EU and neither R1b is, learn the basics first and then you post. So, from YDNA kind of view..... You are foreigner like me lol. And being "Celtic or Steppe" Hella warrior as you claim, cannot be considered by your Ydna but only from your autosomal results.

A central European, French, Belgian, south dutch etc individual is by far more Celtic genetically even if his Ydna is G, T, J, E and other ME lineages.

Dude, as Ruderico mention.. This is not TA. I think you have none bussines in here...

ArmandoR1b
10-29-2019, 11:00 PM
Just to correct a few things stated recently.

Davidski made a thread not long ago at Eurogenes that suggests Bell Beakers are the descendants of Forest Steppe people related to Corded Ware people as opposed to directly descending from Yamnaya people. They both have Steppe autosomal DNA from Eastern European Hunter-Gatherers but the common ancestry is supposedly from before the Yamnaya culture first existed.

I am unaware of any study that states that Spain hosts 70% of DF27. It is the Basques that have 70% DF27 but not the rest of Spain. The modern countries with the highest frequency of DF27 are Spain and Portugal followed by France. This something that I have been pointing out for years but many times with the caveat that it is not the source. As I look at the stats of DF27 in various countries of Europe and the population of each of those countries the total number of DF27 is higher outside of Spain and Portugal. It isn't until France is included with Spain and Portugal that the rest of Europe has a lower amount of DF27.

Here is the amount of DF27 in Europe, in millions, based on the stats that I pulled from the YFull tree.



Country
Pop
Male Pop
%DF27
Amt of DF27


Portugal
10.216
5.108
41.13%
2.101


Spain
46.742
23.371
35.23%
8.234


Total



10.335








Country
Pop
Male Pop
%DF27
Amt of DF27


France
65.175
32.5875
14.29%
4.657


Denmark
5.778
2.889
11.48%
0.332


England
67.647
33.8235
8.61%
2.912


Belgium
11.555
5.7775
8.33%
0.481


Netherlands
17.09
8.545
8.11%
0.693


Scotland
5.313
2.6565
7.77%
0.206


Belarus
9.451
4.7255
5.94%
0.281


Czech R
10.695
5.3475
5.88%
0.314


Italy
60.522
30.261
5.24%
1.586


Germany
83.602
41.801
4.88%
2.040


Ireland
4.899
2.4495
4.23%
0.104


Wales
3.196
1.598
3.57%
0.057


Romania
19.324
9.662
3.23%
0.312


Switzerland
8.611
4.3055
2.67%
0.115


Slovakia
5.457
2.7285
2.63%
0.072


Ukraine
43.91
21.955
2.55%
0.560


Sweden
10.055
5.0275
2.04%
0.103


Hungary
9.677
4.8385
1.92%
0.093


Poland
37.875
18.9375
1.56%
0.295


Norway
5.358
2.679
1.30%
0.035


Finland
5.534
2.767
0.95%
0.026


Russia
145.872
72.936
0.25%
0.182


Total



15.456

anglesqueville
10-29-2019, 11:17 PM
Well, if I am allowed to intervene on this thread, despite the fact that my Y-haplo is a pitiful remove sub-clade of U152 ... I know what a Celtic language is (though I'm not very familiar with the Celtic linguistic family). I understand also what archaeologists and historians mean when they speak of Celtic cultures. But what is a Celtic man (or woman)? I don't know for sure. Seriously, what does all this have to do with DF27? Friends, stop feeding this troll. His days on AG are numbered.

ArmandoR1b
10-29-2019, 11:20 PM
Returning to the flawed stats from the FTDNA Public Haplotree, I looked up the numbers for subclades all the way from R-M343 down to R-DF27, R-U152, and R-L21. I found that the largest drop off for SNP testing was at R-P312. There are 126 people with ancestry from Spain that have tested positive for P312 but did not test all of the subclades downstream from P312 and DF27 was one of the subclades not tested by those people.

I then went to the R-P312 Haplogroup Project to see how many of them I could find. There are 40 people there without sufficient testing downstream from P312. If you go to the SNP page of the project the tested SNPs, both positive and negative, can be seen for each kit. I checked several of them and they did not have DF27 as a tested SNP.

The stats from the FTDNA Public Haplotree prove that the lack of desire to find a subclade downstream from P312 is stronger with people ancestry from Spain than it is from the other Western European countries with a high number of P312 positive people. The following table illustrates it quite well with 19% not getting tested for all possible subclades.



Country
All Haplogroups
P312
P312-subclades
%Dif


Ireland
8462
5312
94
1.77%


England
11596
2910
165
5.67%


Scotland
6240
2966
84
2.83%


United States
4635
1808
21
1.16%


Germany
7670
1005
92
9.15%


United Kingdom
4271
1224
99
8.09%


France
2689
1005
104
10.35%


Spain
2137
663
126
19.00%






The flawed stats for DF27 in Spain at FTDNA is exacerbated by the fact that DF27 is the most common subclade of P312 in Spain. None of the other countries in that list has such a lopsided percentage of DF27 as compared to other subclades of P312. About 75% of P312+ people with ancestry from Spain are positive for DF27. It would be nice if FTDNA would offer them a special deal on the P312 SNP pack.



Country
DF27
U152
R-Z290


Ireland
297
157
4714


England
667
536
1403


Scotland
287
142
2357


United States
323
197
1178


Germany
209
421
176


United Kingdom
204
153
722


France
335
288
254


Spain
399
54
82

Generalissimo
10-29-2019, 11:44 PM
R is not native to EU and neither R1b is, learn the basics first and then you post.

You're getting carried away here.

The basics are that R1b is found in European Upper Paleolithic hunter-gatherers, so it's native to Europe.

IMHO the R1b mutation is from the Balkans.

Johnny ola
10-30-2019, 12:02 AM
You're getting carried away here.

The basics are that R1b is found in European Upper Paleolithic hunter-gatherers, so it's native to Europe.

IMHO the R1b mutation is from the Balkans.

You mean the Villabruna sample?

Generalissimo
10-30-2019, 12:12 AM
You mean the Villabruna sample?

That's probably the oldest one, but there are many indigenous European hunter-gatherers with R1b, from the Balkans, the Baltics and Eastern Europe, with no signs of ancestry from Central Asia or the Near East.

It's very difficult to argue now that R1b isn't native to Europe.

MitchellSince1893
10-30-2019, 12:48 AM
The FTDNA public tree doesn't only use Big Y tested people and therefore there are a lot of people without SNP testing down to DF27 and it's subclades. Some did the Deep Clade testing and some did individual SNPs testing. So your results are flawed. The YFull tree is better source in this respect since there is a clear result if they are unknown for DF27 or P312+ DF27? and there is obviously no question as to whether or not they were tested for P312 and so on.

I want to run something by you as a possible solution to this flaw in the FTDNA data. It's labor intensive but it may provide more useful data.

What if one took the individual country totals for each P312 subclade, added them up for a total for P312. This total would only include men who had tested positive for a P312 subclade, thus eliminating any generic P312 that hadn't done any further testing...all these men would either be DF27+ or DF27-

2. Once this data was gathered, repeat the process for the non P312 L151 subclades
3. Repeat for the non L151 subclades of P310
4. Repeat for the non P310 subclades of L51
5. Repeat for the non L51 subclades of L23
6. Repeat for the non L23 subclades of M269
7. Repeat for the non P297 subclades of L389
8. Repeat for the non L754 subclades of M343
And so on.

Johnny ola
10-30-2019, 01:07 AM
That's probably the oldest one, but there are many indigenous European hunter-gatherers with R1b, from the Balkans, the Baltics and Eastern Europe, with no signs of ancestry from Central Asia or the Near East.

It's very difficult to argue now that R1b isn't native to Europe.

Villabruna shows ANE related admixture, r1b there might be immigrant or some individual who migrated there for unknown reasons(not the best example IMO) . Anyway r1b and r1a have a common ancestor and IMO it originates probably out of Europe. R haplo to me looks connected with ANE component.

Without scientist evidence we can't claim anything for sure. I think we need more samples about R ydna.

Moderator
10-30-2019, 01:26 AM
All members are reminded to remain on topic and to keep the language of your posts civil. This thread is being monitored.

MitchellSince1893
10-30-2019, 03:42 AM
I want to run something by you as a possible solution to this flaw in the FTDNA data. It's labor intensive but it may provide more useful data.

What if one took the individual country totals for each P312 subclade, added them up for a total for P312. This total would only include men who had tested positive for a P312 subclade, thus eliminating any generic P312 that hadn't done any further testing...all these men would either be DF27+ or DF27-

2. Once this data was gathered, repeat the process for the non P312 L151 subclades
3. Repeat for the non L151 subclades of P310
4. Repeat for the non P310 subclades of L51
5. Repeat for the non L51 subclades of L23
6. Repeat for the non L23 subclades of M269
7. Repeat for the non P297 subclades of L389
8. Repeat for the non L754 subclades of M343
And so on.

Just did a survey of the FTDNA results and there are 13012 samples from M343 down that are unassigned to a subclade of said haplogroup.
Of the 36,629 P312 samples, 1694 have not been assigned to a P312 subclade
Of the 51,777 L151 samples, 1267 have not been assigned to a L151 subclade
Of the 51,792 P310 samples, 15 have not been assigned to a P310 subclade
Of the 52199 L51 samples, 78 have not been assigned to a L51 subclade
Of the 53850 L23 samples, 399 have not been assigned to a L23 subclade
Of the 61341 M269 samples, 7245 have not been assigned to a M269 subclade
Of the 61437 P297 samples, 4 have not been assigned to a P297 subclade
Of the 61474 L389 samples, 8 have not been assigned to a L389 subclade
All L754 samples are assigned to subclade V88 or L389
Of the 63960 M343 samples, 2302 have not been assigned to a M343 subclade.

The process above would exclude these 13,000 men from the country totals, and only include men who were proven to be either DF27+ or DF27-

Wanted to get your opinion in case I'm missing something obvious.

I just did the P312 haplgroups. Ended up with 19,706 samples that were assigned to a P312 subclade and had a country of origin

Countries with the most DF27 with at least 20 samples
Portugal 74.47%
Spain 74.30%
Brazil 71.88%
Mexico 68.93%
Puerto Rico 60.98%
Ukraine 43.33%
Belarus 40.91%
France 36.97%
Netherlands 32.59%
Belgium 32.22%
Poland 28.70%
Finland 27.87%
Czech Republic 26.00%
Denmark 24.59%
Sweden 24.51%
England 24.29%
Hungary 23.91%
Germany 22.89%
Switzerland 21.23%
Canada 19.33%
United Kingdom 18.11%
United States 18.07%
Italy 17.61%
United States (Native American) 15.05%
Austria 12.20%
Norway 11.86%
Northern Ireland 11.68%
Russian Federation 11.11%
Scotland 9.97%
Wales 9.77%
New Zealand 8.33%
Ireland 5.70%
Australia 4.00%

Break down of P312 for Old World countries where DF27 makes up at least 20% of the P312 samples

Portugal: 235 P312 samples
DF27: 74.47% of P312
Z290: 16.17%
U152: 8.51%
DF19: 0.43%
FGC84729: 0.42%

Spain: 537 P312 samples
DF27: 74.3% of P312
Z290 (mostly L21): 15.27%
U152: 10.06%
FGC87429: 0.37%

Ukraine: 30 P312 samples
U152: 50%
DF27: 43.33%
Z290: 3.33%
Y18211: 3.33%

Belarus: 22 P312 samples
U152: 50%
DF27: 40.91%
Z290: 9.09%

France, Netherlands, Belgium, Poland, Finland, Denmark, and Sweden are interesting because no P312 subclade has a majority. It also happens to contain some of the Single Grave Culture areas.

France: 898 P312 samples.
DF27: 36.97%
U152: 32.07%
Z290: 28.29%
FGC84729: 1.34%
DF19: 1.11%
A9063: 0.11%
BY25512: 0.11%

Netherlands: 98 P312 samples.
DF27: 32.59%
U152: 29.63%
Z290 27.41%
DF19: 9.63%
FGC84729 0.74%

Belgium: 90 P312 samples.
U152: 33.33%
DF27: 32.22%
Z290: 17.78%
DF19: 14.44%
Y18211: 1.11%
FGC84729: 1.11%

Poland: 115 P312 samples.
U152: 49.57%
DF27: 28.70%
Z290: 13.91%
DF19: 3.48%
L238: 2.61%
FGC84729: 1.74%

Finland: 61 P312 samples
Z290: 31.15%
DF27: 27.87%
U152: 24.59%
L238: 11.48%
FGC8472: 4.92%

Czech Rep. 50 P312 samples
U152: 54.0%
DF27: 26.0%
DF19: 8%
Z290: 8%
FGC84729: 4%

Denmark: 61 P312 samples
Z290: 32.79%
U152: 26.23%
DF27: 24.59%
L238: 9.84%
FGC8472: 4.92%
DF19: 1.64%

Sweden: 253 P312 sample
Z290: 32.41%
DF27: 24.51%
U152: 22.92%
L238: 16.21%
DF19: 2.77%
FGC8472: 1.19%

England: 2742 P312 samples
Z290: 51.13%
DF27: 24.29%
U152: 19.55%
DF19: 2.99%
FGC84729: 1.46%
L238: 0.40%
BY25512: 0.07%
Y18211: 0.07%
A9063: 0.04%

Hungary: 45 P312 samples
U152: 65.22%
DF27: 23.91%
Z290: 10.87%

Germany: 913 P312 samples
U152: 46.11%
DF27: 22.89%
Z290: 19.28%
DF19: 8.54%
FGC84729: 2.96%
L238: 0.22%

Switzerland: 292 P312 samples
U152: 65.41%
DF27: 21.23%
Z290: 8.22%
FGC84729: 3.77%
DF19: 1.37%

falconson1
10-30-2019, 04:07 AM
- deleted - wrong thread - apologies.

falconson1
10-30-2019, 04:20 AM
Break down of P312 for Old World countries where DF27 makes up at least 20% of the P312 samples

Portugal: 235 P312 samples
DF27: 74.47% of P312
Z290: 16.17%
U152: 8.51%
DF19: 0.43%
FGC84729: 0.42%

Spain: 537 P312 samples
DF27: 74.3% of P312
Z290 (mostly L21): 15.27%
U152: 10.06%
FGC87429: 0.37%

Ukraine: 30 P312 samples
U152: 50%
DF27: 43.33%
Z290: 3.33%
Y18211: 3.33%

Belarus: 22 P312 samples
U152: 50%
DF27: 40.91%
Z290: 9.09%

France, Netherlands, Belgium, Poland, Finland, Denmark, and Sweden are interesting because no P312 subclade has a majority. It also happens to contain some of the Single Grave Culture areas.

France: 898 P312 samples.
DF27: 36.97%
U152: 32.07%
Z290: 28.29%
FGC84729: 1.34%
DF19: 1.11%
A9063: 0.11%
BY25512: 0.11%

Netherlands: 98 P312 samples.
DF27: 32.59%
U152: 29.63%
L21: 27.41%
DF19: 9.63%
FGC84729 0.74%

Belgium: 90 P312 samples.
U152: 33.33%
DF27: 32.22%
Z290: 17.78%
DF19: 14.44%
Y18211: 1.11%
FGC84729: 1.11%

Poland: 115 P312 samples.
U152: 49.57%
DF27: 28.70%
Z290: 13.91%
DF19: 3.48%
L238: 2.61%
FGC84729: 1.74%

Finland: 61 P312 samples
Z290: 31.15%
DF27: 27.87%
U152: 24.59%
L238: 11.48%
FGC8472: 4.92%

Czech Rep. 50 P312 samples
U152: 54.0%
DF27: 26.0%
DF19: 8%
Z290: 8%
FGC84729: 4%

Denmark: 61 P312 samples
Z290: 32.79%
U152: 26.23%
DF27: 24.59%
L238: 9.84%
FGC8472: 4.92%
DF19: 1.64%

Sweden: 253 P312 sample
Z290: 32.41%
DF27: 24.51%
U152: 22.92%
L238: 16.21%
DF19: 2.77%
FGC8472: 1.19%

England: 2742 P312 samples
Z290: 51.13%
DF27: 24.29%
U152: 19.55%
DF19: 2.99%
FGC84729: 1.46%
L238: 0.40%
BY25512: 0.07%
Y18211: 0.07%
A9063: 0.04%

Hungary: 45 P312 samples
U152: 65.22%
DF27: 23.91%
Z290: 10.87%

Germany: 913 P312 samples
U152: 46.11%
DF27: 22.89%
Z290: 19.28%
DF19: 8.54%
FGC84729: 2.96%
L238: 0.22%

Switzerland: 292 P312 samples
U152: 65.41%
DF27: 21.23%
Z290: 8.22%
FGC84729: 3.77%
DF19: 1.37%

Interesting, very much so. However, what is with the predominance of U152 in most countries outside Iberia as far as Ukraine. L21 is virtually non existent across Europe. - and DF27 at 41% in Belarus? Does this square with data from published studies?

MitchellSince1893
10-30-2019, 05:12 AM
Just making sure you didn’t miss that Z290 includes L21...over 99% of Z290 is L21

ArmandoR1b
10-30-2019, 05:37 AM
I want to run something by you as a possible solution to this flaw in the FTDNA data. It's labor intensive but it may provide more useful data.

What if one took the individual country totals for each P312 subclade, added them up for a total for P312. This total would only include men who had tested positive for a P312 subclade, thus eliminating any generic P312 that hadn't done any further testing...all these men would either be DF27+ or DF27-

2. Once this data was gathered, repeat the process for the non P312 L151 subclades
3. Repeat for the non L151 subclades of P310
4. Repeat for the non P310 subclades of L51
5. Repeat for the non L51 subclades of L23
6. Repeat for the non L23 subclades of M269
7. Repeat for the non P297 subclades of L389
8. Repeat for the non L754 subclades of M343
And so on.

That would work. It would also provide more numbers than what can be provided by YFull so it would be even better than using YFull. I'm interested in seeing the results, both numbers and percentages, once all of the subclades up to R-M207 are done. It's too bad there is no way to automate all of that. I wish I knew enough coding to extract the data by using the browser's Developer Tools.

ArmandoR1b
10-30-2019, 05:50 AM
Interesting, very much so. However, what is with the predominance of U152 in most countries outside Iberia as far as Ukraine. L21 is virtually non existent across Europe. - and DF27 at 41% in Belarus? Does this square with data from published studies?

L21 is a subclade of Z290. This is a "new" discovery. I can't remember for sure but I think that it has been two years since the discovery. DF27 isn't 41% in Belarus. The percentage of DF27 out of P312 is 41% in Belarus. The percentage of P312 is only around 5.94%. MitchellSince1893 was just following up with my examples of which subclade of P312 is more common in certain countries.

For example, the FTDNA haplotree has a total of 615 people from Belarus. Only 9 tested positive for DF27. That is 1.4% DF27 in Belarus. FTDNA haplotree has 24 people from Belarus as positive for P312. That is 3.9%. These numbers are somewhat flawed though because not everyone in the FTDNA haplotree has been tested for all of the SNPs that are tested by Big Y because a lot of people have only done individual SNP tests or the outdated Deep Clade test.

If he uses the methodology that he proposed in post #743 then the numbers and percentages will be more accurate although not hugely different. I think the percentages and numbers for Spain and maybe Portugal will be impacted the most. But we'll see.

ArmandoR1b
10-30-2019, 05:58 AM
I just did the P312 haplgroups. Ended up with 19,706 samples that were assigned to a P312 subclade and had a country of origin


Break down of P312 for Old World countries where DF27 makes up at least 20% of the P312 samples



The numbers and percentages will be really interesting once an accurate total of all samples per country in haplogroup R that have been tested all the way down to DF27 or into another subclade that makes it impossible to be positive for DF27. In the meantime those numbers and percentages can be misleading because of the lack of an accurate total of kits that meet the criteria. I'm looking forward to seeing that accurate count.

jaumemiquel
10-30-2019, 02:04 PM
I just did the P312 haplgroups. Ended up with 19,706 samples that were assigned to a P312 subclade and had a country of origin

Countries with the most DF27 with at least 20 samples
Portugal 74.47%
Spain 74.30%
Brazil 71.88%
Mexico 68.93%
Puerto Rico 60.98%
Ukraine 43.33%
Belarus 40.91%
France 36.97%
Netherlands 32.59%
Belgium 32.22%
Poland 28.70%
Finland 27.87%
Czech Republic 26.00%
Denmark 24.59%
Sweden 24.51%
England 24.29%
Hungary 23.91%
Germany 22.89%
Switzerland 21.23%
Canada 19.33%
United Kingdom 18.11%
United States 18.07%
Italy 17.61%
United States (Native American) 15.05%
Austria 12.20%
Norway 11.86%
Northern Ireland 11.68%
Russian Federation 11.11%
Scotland 9.97%
Wales 9.77%
New Zealand 8.33%
Ireland 5.70%
Australia 4.00%

Break down of P312 for Old World countries where DF27 makes up at least 20% of the P312 samples

Portugal: 235 P312 samples
DF27: 74.47% of P312
Z290: 16.17%
U152: 8.51%
DF19: 0.43%
FGC84729: 0.42%

Spain: 537 P312 samples
DF27: 74.3% of P312
Z290 (mostly L21): 15.27%
U152: 10.06%
FGC87429: 0.37%

Ukraine: 30 P312 samples
U152: 50%
DF27: 43.33%
Z290: 3.33%
Y18211: 3.33%

Belarus: 22 P312 samples
U152: 50%
DF27: 40.91%
Z290: 9.09%

France, Netherlands, Belgium, Poland, Finland, Denmark, and Sweden are interesting because no P312 subclade has a majority. It also happens to contain some of the Single Grave Culture areas.

France: 898 P312 samples.
DF27: 36.97%
U152: 32.07%
Z290: 28.29%
FGC84729: 1.34%
DF19: 1.11%
A9063: 0.11%
BY25512: 0.11%

Netherlands: 98 P312 samples.
DF27: 32.59%
U152: 29.63%
Z290 27.41%
DF19: 9.63%
FGC84729 0.74%

Belgium: 90 P312 samples.
U152: 33.33%
DF27: 32.22%
Z290: 17.78%
DF19: 14.44%
Y18211: 1.11%
FGC84729: 1.11%

Poland: 115 P312 samples.
U152: 49.57%
DF27: 28.70%
Z290: 13.91%
DF19: 3.48%
L238: 2.61%
FGC84729: 1.74%

Finland: 61 P312 samples
Z290: 31.15%
DF27: 27.87%
U152: 24.59%
L238: 11.48%
FGC8472: 4.92%

Czech Rep. 50 P312 samples
U152: 54.0%
DF27: 26.0%
DF19: 8%
Z290: 8%
FGC84729: 4%

Denmark: 61 P312 samples
Z290: 32.79%
U152: 26.23%
DF27: 24.59%
L238: 9.84%
FGC8472: 4.92%
DF19: 1.64%

Sweden: 253 P312 sample
Z290: 32.41%
DF27: 24.51%
U152: 22.92%
L238: 16.21%
DF19: 2.77%
FGC8472: 1.19%

England: 2742 P312 samples
Z290: 51.13%
DF27: 24.29%
U152: 19.55%
DF19: 2.99%
FGC84729: 1.46%
L238: 0.40%
BY25512: 0.07%
Y18211: 0.07%
A9063: 0.04%

Hungary: 45 P312 samples
U152: 65.22%
DF27: 23.91%
Z290: 10.87%

Germany: 913 P312 samples
U152: 46.11%
DF27: 22.89%
Z290: 19.28%
DF19: 8.54%
FGC84729: 2.96%
L238: 0.22%

Switzerland: 292 P312 samples
U152: 65.41%
DF27: 21.23%
Z290: 8.22%
FGC84729: 3.77%
DF19: 1.37%

thanks so much for your work, MitchellSince1893, this kind of sums it up that DF27 is Iberian and appeared in situ...nice work

falconson1
10-30-2019, 02:38 PM
Just making sure you didn’t miss that Z290 includes L21...over 99% of Z290 is L21

Thanks, you are correct - I rationalize that many of us "old timers" are oblivious to that particular designation - still "valiantly" trying to get back in the groove - need to keep an updated phylo chart in front of me before I read anything here. The Y world has seen a huge transformation since I switched to autosomal studies circa 2011.

Dewsloth
10-30-2019, 04:18 PM
I just did the P312 haplgroups. Ended up with 19,706 samples that were assigned to a P312 subclade and had a country of origin

Countries with the most DF27 with at least 20 samples
Portugal 74.47%
Spain 74.30%
Brazil 71.88%
Mexico 68.93%
Puerto Rico 60.98%
Ukraine 43.33%
Belarus 40.91%
France 36.97%
Netherlands 32.59%
Belgium 32.22%
Poland 28.70%
Finland 27.87%
Czech Republic 26.00%
Denmark 24.59%
Sweden 24.51%
England 24.29%
Hungary 23.91%
Germany 22.89%
Switzerland 21.23%
Canada 19.33%
United Kingdom 18.11%
United States 18.07%
Italy 17.61%
United States (Native American) 15.05%
Austria 12.20%
Norway 11.86%
Northern Ireland 11.68%
Russian Federation 11.11%
Scotland 9.97%
Wales 9.77%
New Zealand 8.33%
Ireland 5.70%
Australia 4.00%

Break down of P312 for Old World countries where DF27 makes up at least 20% of the P312 samples

Portugal: 235 P312 samples
DF27: 74.47% of P312
Z290: 16.17%
U152: 8.51%
DF19: 0.43%
FGC84729: 0.42%

Spain: 537 P312 samples
DF27: 74.3% of P312
Z290 (mostly L21): 15.27%
U152: 10.06%
FGC87429: 0.37%

Ukraine: 30 P312 samples
U152: 50%
DF27: 43.33%
Z290: 3.33%
Y18211: 3.33%

Belarus: 22 P312 samples
U152: 50%
DF27: 40.91%
Z290: 9.09%

France, Netherlands, Belgium, Poland, Finland, Denmark, and Sweden are interesting because no P312 subclade has a majority. It also happens to contain some of the Single Grave Culture areas.

France: 898 P312 samples.
DF27: 36.97%
U152: 32.07%
Z290: 28.29%
FGC84729: 1.34%
DF19: 1.11%
A9063: 0.11%
BY25512: 0.11%

Netherlands: 98 P312 samples.
DF27: 32.59%
U152: 29.63%
Z290 27.41%
DF19: 9.63%
FGC84729 0.74%

Belgium: 90 P312 samples.
U152: 33.33%
DF27: 32.22%
Z290: 17.78%
DF19: 14.44%
Y18211: 1.11%
FGC84729: 1.11%

Poland: 115 P312 samples.
U152: 49.57%
DF27: 28.70%
Z290: 13.91%
DF19: 3.48%
L238: 2.61%
FGC84729: 1.74%

Finland: 61 P312 samples
Z290: 31.15%
DF27: 27.87%
U152: 24.59%
L238: 11.48%
FGC8472: 4.92%

Czech Rep. 50 P312 samples
U152: 54.0%
DF27: 26.0%
DF19: 8%
Z290: 8%
FGC84729: 4%

Denmark: 61 P312 samples
Z290: 32.79%
U152: 26.23%
DF27: 24.59%
L238: 9.84%
FGC8472: 4.92%
DF19: 1.64%

Sweden: 253 P312 sample
Z290: 32.41%
DF27: 24.51%
U152: 22.92%
L238: 16.21%
DF19: 2.77%
FGC8472: 1.19%

England: 2742 P312 samples
Z290: 51.13%
DF27: 24.29%
U152: 19.55%
DF19: 2.99%
FGC84729: 1.46%
L238: 0.40%
BY25512: 0.07%
Y18211: 0.07%
A9063: 0.04%

Hungary: 45 P312 samples
U152: 65.22%
DF27: 23.91%
Z290: 10.87%

Germany: 913 P312 samples
U152: 46.11%
DF27: 22.89%
Z290: 19.28%
DF19: 8.54%
FGC84729: 2.96%
L238: 0.22%

Switzerland: 292 P312 samples
U152: 65.41%
DF27: 21.23%
Z290: 8.22%
FGC84729: 3.77%
DF19: 1.37%

Some day, when you have nothing better to do, can you check on Norway, Scotland and Ireland, too? :beerchug::hail::pray:

I find the DF19 distribution in the above to be fascinating, considering how high it is in Belgium, but low in France even though there ought to be a bunch in Alsace and other northern regions.

Moderator
10-30-2019, 04:24 PM
[MOD]

Multiple unproductive posts have been deleted due to a breach of the following Terms:



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Thank you to those members who reported that asinine discourse to us. May the productive discussions continue!

Thanks for your cooperation,

ArmandoR1b
10-30-2019, 05:17 PM
I want to run something by you as a possible solution to this flaw in the FTDNA data. It's labor intensive but it may provide more useful data.

What if one took the individual country totals for each P312 subclade, added them up for a total for P312. This total would only include men who had tested positive for a P312 subclade, thus eliminating any generic P312 that hadn't done any further testing...all these men would either be DF27+ or DF27-

2. Once this data was gathered, repeat the process for the non P312 L151 subclades
3. Repeat for the non L151 subclades of P310
4. Repeat for the non P310 subclades of L51
5. Repeat for the non L51 subclades of L23
6. Repeat for the non L23 subclades of M269
7. Repeat for the non P297 subclades of L389
8. Repeat for the non L754 subclades of M343
And so on.

I decided to try this just for Spain and it caused me to realize that an even bigger cause of the difference in stats for Spain between the FTDNA haplotree and the YFull tree (which more closely matched academic studies) is that haplogroups E, G, and J1-M267 have a larger percentage than both YFull and academic studies of Spain. G and J1-M267 have the largest differences. This difference is likely due to so many people from Latin America with the MDKA from Spain, most living in the U.S., as part of the database as opposed to academic studies using specimens from within Spain. The YFull tree has some 1000 Genomes kits from Spain which balances out this phenomenon a bit.

MitchellSince1893
10-30-2019, 10:53 PM
Some day, when you have nothing better to do, can you check on Norway, Scotland and Ireland, too? :beerchug::hail::pray:

I find the DF19 distribution in the above to be fascinating, considering how high it is in Belgium, but low in France even though there ought to be a bunch in Alsace and other northern regions.

Oh I already have it...just didn't post everything as this is a DF27 focused thread

Country, P312 samples, DF19 percentage of P312 samples
Belgium 90 14.44%
Luxembourg 9 11.11%
Netherlands 98 9.63%
Isle of Man 11 9.09%
Germany 913 8.54%
Czech Republic 50 8.00%
Canada 119 5.04%
Austria 41 4.88%
United States (Native American) 93 4.30%
Poland 115 3.48%
Norway 177 3.39%
England 2742 2.99%
Sweden 253 2.77%
United States 1782 2.41%
Russian Federation 45 2.22%
Scotland 2880 2.19%
United Kingdom 1121 1.96%
Northern Ireland 505 1.78%
Denmark 61 1.64%
Switzerland 292 1.37%
Wales 430 1.16%
France 898 1.11%
Ireland 5208 0.60%
Portugal 235 0.43%
Italy 352 0.28%

Dewsloth
10-30-2019, 11:13 PM
Oh I already have it...just didn't post everything as this is a DF27 focused thread

Country, P312 samples, DF19 percentage of P312 samples
Belgium 90 14.44%
Luxembourg 9 11.11%
Netherlands 98 9.63%
Isle of Man 11 9.09%
Germany 913 8.54%
Czech Republic 50 8.00%
Canada 119 5.04%
Austria 41 4.88%
United States (Native American) 93 4.30%
Poland 115 3.48%
Norway 177 3.39%
England 2742 2.99%
Sweden 253 2.77%
United States 1782 2.41%
Russian Federation 45 2.22%
Scotland 2880 2.19%
United Kingdom 1121 1.96%
Northern Ireland 505 1.78%
Denmark 61 1.64%
Switzerland 292 1.37%
Wales 430 1.16%
France 898 1.11%
Ireland 5208 0.60%
Portugal 235 0.43%
Italy 352 0.28%

Thank you so much. Wow, that's a lot of Irish samples!

MitchellSince1893
10-30-2019, 11:30 PM
Thank you so much. Wow, that's a lot of Irish samples!

No surprise but 4705 of the 5208 are Z290 (Z290 is >99% L21) guys.

MitchellSince1893
10-31-2019, 12:12 AM
Thank you so much. Wow, that's a lot of Irish samples!

Here what DF19 looks like when I add in the other L151 subclades (U106, S1194, A8053)

Country L151 samples, D19's percentage of L151.
Guyana 2 50.00%
Belgium 159 8.18%
Isle of Man 13 7.69%
Czech Republic 79 5.06%
Luxembourg 20 5.00%
Germany 1855 4.20%
Canada 152 3.95%
Netherlands 367 3.54%
United States (Native American) 130 3.08%
Austria 76 2.63%
England 4513 1.82%
Scotland 3487 1.81%
United States 2477 1.74%
Poland 232 1.72%
Norway 349 1.72%
Northern Ireland 591 1.52%
United Kingdom 1665 1.32%
Sweden 571 1.23%
Russian Federation 83 1.20%
Wales 504 0.99%
Switzerland 423 0.95%
France 1102 0.91%
Denmark 142 0.70%
Ireland 5664 0.55%
Portugal 258 0.39%
Italy 410 0.24%

alan
10-31-2019, 12:12 AM
That's probably the oldest one, but there are many indigenous European hunter-gatherers with R1b, from the Balkans, the Baltics and Eastern Europe, with no signs of ancestry from Central Asia or the Near East.

It's very difficult to argue now that R1b isn't native to Europe.

So are you saying that the Mal'ta boy R was a stray from eastern Europe or that R migrated from Siberia into Europe and the R1b mutation occurred in eastern Europe?

MitchellSince1893
10-31-2019, 12:16 AM
And since this is the DF27 thread

Country L151 samples, D27's percentage of L151
Dominican Republic 1 100.00%
Ecuador 1 100.00%
El Salvador 8 100.00%
Equatorial Guinea 1 100.00%
Mozambique 1 100.00%
Peru 1 100.00%
Philippines 1 100.00%
Qatar 1 100.00%
Chile 10 80.00%
Spain 576 69.27%
Portugal 258 67.83%
Armenia 3 66.67%
Venezuela 3 66.67%
Mexico 110 64.55%
Brazil 37 62.16%
Puerto Rico 42 59.52%
Argentina 7 57.14%
Colombia 14 57.14%
Algeria 6 50.00%
Costa Rica 4 50.00%
Cuba 14 50.00%
Haiti 4 50.00%
Iran 3 33.33%
Belarus 28 32.14%
France 1102 30.13%
Bulgaria 15 26.67%
Ukraine 56 23.21%
Belgium 159 18.24%
Barbados 11 18.18%
Greece 17 17.65%
Lebanon 6 16.67%
Malta 6 16.67%
Czech Republic 79 16.46%
Isle of Man 13 15.38%
Canada 152 15.13%
Italy 410 15.12%
England 4513 14.76%
Switzerland 423 14.66%
Poland 232 14.22%
United States 2477 13.00%
Hungary 85 12.94%
Turkey 8 12.50%
United Kingdom 1665 12.19%
Finland 140 12.14%
Netherlands 367 11.99%
Germany 1855 11.27%
Sweden 571 10.86%
United States (Native American) 130 10.77%
Denmark 142 10.56%
Luxembourg 20 10.00%
Romania 20 10.00%
Northern Ireland 591 9.98%
Lithuania 33 9.09%
Slovakia 22 9.09%
South Africa 11 9.09%
Wales 504 8.33%
Scotland 3487 8.23%
Latvia 13 7.69%
Austria 76 6.58%
Russian Federation 83 6.02%
Norway 349 6.02%
New Zealand 17 5.88%
Ireland 5664 5.24%
Australia 33 3.03%