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alan
10-31-2019, 12:25 AM
I just did the P312 haplgroups. Ended up with 19,706 samples that were assigned to a P312 subclade and had a country of origin

Countries with the most DF27 with at least 20 samples
Portugal 74.47%
Spain 74.30%
Brazil 71.88%
Mexico 68.93%
Puerto Rico 60.98%
Ukraine 43.33%
Belarus 40.91%
France 36.97%
Netherlands 32.59%
Belgium 32.22%
Poland 28.70%
Finland 27.87%
Czech Republic 26.00%
Denmark 24.59%
Sweden 24.51%
England 24.29%
Hungary 23.91%
Germany 22.89%
Switzerland 21.23%
Canada 19.33%
United Kingdom 18.11%
United States 18.07%
Italy 17.61%
United States (Native American) 15.05%
Austria 12.20%
Norway 11.86%
Northern Ireland 11.68%
Russian Federation 11.11%
Scotland 9.97%
Wales 9.77%
New Zealand 8.33%
Ireland 5.70%
Australia 4.00%

Break down of P312 for Old World countries where DF27 makes up at least 20% of the P312 samples

Portugal: 235 P312 samples
DF27: 74.47% of P312
Z290: 16.17%
U152: 8.51%
DF19: 0.43%
FGC84729: 0.42%

Spain: 537 P312 samples
DF27: 74.3% of P312
Z290 (mostly L21): 15.27%
U152: 10.06%
FGC87429: 0.37%

Ukraine: 30 P312 samples
U152: 50%
DF27: 43.33%
Z290: 3.33%
Y18211: 3.33%

Belarus: 22 P312 samples
U152: 50%
DF27: 40.91%
Z290: 9.09%

France, Netherlands, Belgium, Poland, Finland, Denmark, and Sweden are interesting because no P312 subclade has a majority. It also happens to contain some of the Single Grave Culture areas.

France: 898 P312 samples.
DF27: 36.97%
U152: 32.07%
Z290: 28.29%
FGC84729: 1.34%
DF19: 1.11%
A9063: 0.11%
BY25512: 0.11%

Netherlands: 98 P312 samples.
DF27: 32.59%
U152: 29.63%
Z290 27.41%
DF19: 9.63%
FGC84729 0.74%

Belgium: 90 P312 samples.
U152: 33.33%
DF27: 32.22%
Z290: 17.78%
DF19: 14.44%
Y18211: 1.11%
FGC84729: 1.11%

Poland: 115 P312 samples.
U152: 49.57%
DF27: 28.70%
Z290: 13.91%
DF19: 3.48%
L238: 2.61%
FGC84729: 1.74%

Finland: 61 P312 samples
Z290: 31.15%
DF27: 27.87%
U152: 24.59%
L238: 11.48%
FGC8472: 4.92%

Czech Rep. 50 P312 samples
U152: 54.0%
DF27: 26.0%
DF19: 8%
Z290: 8%
FGC84729: 4%

Denmark: 61 P312 samples
Z290: 32.79%
U152: 26.23%
DF27: 24.59%
L238: 9.84%
FGC8472: 4.92%
DF19: 1.64%

Sweden: 253 P312 sample
Z290: 32.41%
DF27: 24.51%
U152: 22.92%
L238: 16.21%
DF19: 2.77%
FGC8472: 1.19%

England: 2742 P312 samples
Z290: 51.13%
DF27: 24.29%
U152: 19.55%
DF19: 2.99%
FGC84729: 1.46%
L238: 0.40%
BY25512: 0.07%
Y18211: 0.07%
A9063: 0.04%

Hungary: 45 P312 samples
U152: 65.22%
DF27: 23.91%
Z290: 10.87%

Germany: 913 P312 samples
U152: 46.11%
DF27: 22.89%
Z290: 19.28%
DF19: 8.54%
FGC84729: 2.96%
L238: 0.22%

Switzerland: 292 P312 samples
U152: 65.41%
DF27: 21.23%
Z290: 8.22%
FGC84729: 3.77%
DF19: 1.37%

Interesting that DF27 is over 4 times as common among P312 in England than it is in Ireland. Although not as rare as in Ireland its still much less common among the P312 in Wales and Scotland than it is in England. It kind of makes me think that the DF27 in the isles looks to have mostly entered from the NW continent than the Atlantic fringe.

Magovalle
10-31-2019, 12:28 AM
I still find it incredibly interesting how fashionable claiming some form of Celtic ancestry is. I personally hope that we will see the end of the theory that the "Celts" spread from Central Europe into Western and North-Western Europe so that an end can be brought to all the ridiculous claims that one group or another are the "true Celts." "U152 are the true Celts, DF27 are the true Celts, even U106 are the true Celts." I meet a guy with Austrian ancestry, he says "I'm a Celt though, like one of the true Celts from the Alps." The list goes on. We must look at this from what we know for sure: the Iron Age Celts from Britain, the ones who were definitely Celts, that we have sampled were L21. L21 definitely seems to be tied to these much sought after "true Celts" but that is all we can say with certainty. I'm DF27, and I'm very enthusiastic about all things Celtic, so I would love it if there was a definite DF27 connection to the speakers of Celtic languages. However, with certainty, I do not think there is. Maybe one day there will be. Today, I'm not sure, so I would rather not invent theories based upon my own wishful thinking.

Hi there, guy. You are right. Every time we talk about Celtic concept we should bear in mind that we are speaking about a culture not an ethnic group. On the other hand coming back to the origins of DF27 the only thing we can confirm is that the oldest sample has been found in Quedlinburg (Germany) until date. For instance I remain sitting on a direct confirmed haplogrup downstream ZZ12_1 which is the major subclade under DF27 together with Z195. It´s quite possible that the real origin of ZZ12_1 must be placed somewhere in the Western Area of France (New Aquitaine?). This is just and hypothesis. And the same must have happened with most major clades under DF27 but in different parts of France. The biggest problem of all this has to do with the restrictive laws applied by french authorities who forbid this kind of dna tests among our french cousins. What means it would be quite impossible to close our philogenetic trees to guess about our real origins in the near term. Maybe some day in future. Who knows. And in the meantime just taking a wait and see attitude waiting for a kind of miracle. As you well know patience is a virtue in genetics. Best

ADW_1981
10-31-2019, 01:10 AM
DF27 could have originated in Iberia during the early Bronze Age I suppose, but it most definitely refluxed into northern and central Europe during the Middle Bronze Age, as this is roughly the age when some of the splits date to in a North-South pattern. There is a good chance that at least one of the Tollense warriors was DF27 based on autosomes appearing "Basque like". While I'm not sure if this vague reference indicates a specific region, some of the warriors could have originated in what is today's France.

MitchellSince1893
10-31-2019, 01:32 AM
I want to run something by you as a possible solution to this flaw in the FTDNA data. It's labor intensive but it may provide more useful data.

What if one took the individual country totals for each P312 subclade, added them up for a total for P312. This total would only include men who had tested positive for a P312 subclade, thus eliminating any generic P312 that hadn't done any further testing...all these men would either be DF27+ or DF27-

2. Once this data was gathered, repeat the process for the non P312 L151 subclades
3. Repeat for the non L151 subclades of P310
4. Repeat for the non P310 subclades of L51
5. Repeat for the non L51 subclades of L23
6. Repeat for the non L23 subclades of M269
7. Repeat for the non P297 subclades of L389
8. Repeat for the non L754 subclades of M343
And so on.

As I work my back up the tree...currently on M269; it readily becomes apparent that as you go back in time, the center of gravity of the samples keeps shifting further and further east. Prior to L23 it's mostly western and central europe, but once you get to L23, things quickly shift into eastern Europe, Central Asia, and the Middle East.

EDIT: back to P297 and now things have shifted to Central and East Asia with the first samples showing up from Kyrgyzstan, Pakistan, China, and Mongolia

Shadogowah
10-31-2019, 06:38 AM
Hi there, guy. You are right. Every time we talk about Celtic concept we should bear in mind that we are speaking about a culture not an ethnic group. On the other hand coming back to the origins of DF27 the only thing we can confirm is that the oldest sample has been found in Quedlinburg (Germany) until date. For instance I remain sitting on a direct confirmed haplogrup downstream ZZ12_1 which is the major subclade under DF27 together with Z195. It´s quite possible that the real origin of ZZ12_1 must be placed somewhere in the Western Area of France (New Aquitaine?). This is just and hypothesis. And the same must have happened with most major clades under DF27 but in different parts of France. The biggest problem of all this has to do with the restrictive laws applied by french authorities who forbid this kind of dna tests among our french cousins. What means it would be quite impossible to close our philogenetic trees to guess about our real origins in the near term. Maybe some day in future. Who knows. And in the meantime just taking a wait and see attitude waiting for a kind of miracle. As you well know patience is a virtue in genetics. Best

There were samples found in Sicily that showed Iberian ancestry and were dated just a few just decades later. It implies that their papas or grandpas were also DF27 and either had Iberian ancestry or took Iberian wives perhaps even before the guy in Quedlinburg was born.

These samples do not stop the German one to still be the oldest but for sure reduce severely its importance as such.


I0806, Quedlinburg, Germany (c. 2300 BC) (2431-2150 BC)
I8561 (c. 2272 BC) (2346-2199 calBCE) and I3123 (2287-2044 calBCE), Z195, Sicily

ArmandoR1b
10-31-2019, 12:24 PM
There were samples found in Sicily that showed Iberian ancestry and were dated just a few just decades later. It implies that their papas or grandpas were also DF27 and either had Iberian ancestry or took Iberian wives perhaps even before the guy in Quedlinburg was born.

These samples do not stop the German one to still be the oldest but for sure reduce severely its importance as such.


I0806, Quedlinburg, Germany (c. 2300 BC) (2431-2150 BC)
I8561 (c. 2272 BC) (2346-2199 calBCE) and I3123 (2287-2044 calBCE), Z195, Sicily

That is a great point for when and how did it expand? That is proof that DF27 entered Iberia early which is something that a lot of people contended at one point. The lack of coverage of DF27 and Z195 for the early Bronze Age specimens from Spain in Olalde et al. 2019 didn't help with that.

If anyone isn't familiar with the pre-print of the study that included I8561 (c. 2272 BC) (2346-2199 calBCE) and I3123 (2287-2044 calBCE), Z195, Sicily it is at doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/584714

Here is an excerpt from the Supplementary Data



We modeled Bronze Age Sicilians as having a local source of ancestry represented by Sicily_MN,
and then added combinations of Bell Beaker culture associated populations from the west (as we
find Iberia-specific Y chromosome haplogroup R1b1a1a2a1a2a1 (Z195) in Early Bronze Age Sicily),
namely Iberia and France (Bell_Beaker_Iberia_highsteppe, France_Bell_Beaker). We also use
Minoan_Lassithi as a proxy for Iranian-related ancestry.

Early Bronze Age: We find that Sicily_EBA can 723 be fit as Sicily_MN and
Bell_Beaker_Iberia_highsteppe (15.7 ± 3.5%), in agreement with the Y chromosome evidence of an
Iberian affinity. Our modeling of the three outliers identifies France_Bell_Beaker as the only
parsimonious fitting second source (Supplementary Table 14), albeit with different proportions of
29.7 ± 3.4% in Sicily_EBA3123, 44.7 ± 3.2% in Sicily_EBA8561, and , 74.2 ± 3.8 in Sicily_EBA11443.

The early entrance of DF27 into Spain helps explain why the frequency of DF27 is so high there as compared to other countries.

MitchellSince1893
10-31-2019, 01:39 PM
That would work. It would also provide more numbers than what can be provided by YFull so it would be even better than using YFull. I'm interested in seeing the results, both numbers and percentages, once all of the subclades up to R-M207 are done. It's too bad there is no way to automate all of that. I wish I knew enough coding to extract the data by using the browser's Developer Tools.

I completed gathering the data all the way back to the top of FTDNA's tree.

I haven't yet gone through and placed it all yet but I think the process breaks down at some point. My guess is when I get to the IJK-L15 node and include IJ-P124 (basically adding in the I1, I2, J1, and J2 haplogroups to the overall total); I and J appear to be over represented.

Right before that, at the K-M9 haplogroup, DF27 represents 55% of Spain. When I add in the IJ-P124 numbers it drops to 29.6%. When I go all the way back to the root, DF27 represents 22.9% of Spain. This is higher than what I got in post 716 (DF27 in Spain was 18.67%), but very different from your Yfull numbers (35.23%)

The problem may be even later than IJK-L15. I'm probably ok going back to M269 and possibly M343 (R1b), but not sure once I start including the R1a samples....maybe they are also over represented in the data?

Any one who knows about FTDNA and the other haplogroups have any thoughts?

ArmandoR1b
10-31-2019, 02:02 PM
I completed gathering the data all the way back to the top of FTDNA's tree.

I haven't yet gone through and placed it all yet but I think the process breaks down at some point. My guess is when I get to the IJK-L15 node and include IJ-P124 (basically adding in the I1, I2, J1, and J2 haplogroups to the overall total); I and J appear to be over represented.

Right before that, at the K-M9 haplogroup, DF27 represents 55% of Spain. When I add in the IJ-P124 numbers it drops to 29.6%. When I go all the way back to the root, DF27 represents 22.9% of Spain. This is higher than what I got in post 716 (DF27 in Spain was 18.67%), but very different from your Yfull numbers (35.23%)

The problem may be even later than IJK-L15. I'm probably ok going back to M269 and possibly M343 (R1b), but not sure once I start including the R1a samples....maybe they are also over represented in the data?

Any one who knows about FTDNA and the other haplogroups have any thoughts?

Yesterday I quoted you and posted (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand&p=615215&viewfull=1#post615215) where I realized an even bigger cause of the difference in stats for Spain between the FTDNA haplotree and the YFull tree (which more closely matched academic studies) is that haplogroups E, G, and J1-M267 have a larger percentage than both YFull and academic studies of Spain. G and J1-M267 have the largest differences. There is also a difference in haplogroup I and J2-M172 so they are also contributing to the difference. So yes I1, I2, J1, and J2 are over represented, as well as G and E, in the FTDNA tree and it is likely due to samples largely being from the U.S., through Latin America, but with ancestry from Spain.

Escagedo
10-31-2019, 04:29 PM
I did the MorleyDNA test with my Ancestry raw data. It reads R1b1a2a1a2b1, R1b-L2, L2/S139. WWhere does this place me at? Anything I can learn from this?
My paternal comes from Spain, Cantabria, Camargo, Santander, Maliaño. Apparently the surname is rare and looking at my tree research 2 family names seemed to have gone back and forth in marriage from the 1800s back to the 1600s or earlier.
My family on the paternal had a famous researched by the name Mateo Escagedo Salmon. He was my grandfather's uncle and brother to his father. Anyhow any thoughts or knowledge sharing will be appreciated.

34294

ArmandoR1b
10-31-2019, 04:35 PM
I did the MorleyDNA test with my Ancestry raw data. It reads R1b1a2a1a2b1, R1b-L2, L2/S139. WWhere does this place me at? Anything I can learn from this?


This thread is for DF27. L2 is downstream of U152. There is a subforum for U152 at https://anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?120-R1b-U152 and for L2 at https://anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?143-L2

Escagedo
10-31-2019, 04:38 PM
Thank you for your help Sir! I appreciate that.

Camulogène Rix
10-31-2019, 04:45 PM
Hi there, guy. You are right. Every time we talk about Celtic concept we should bear in mind that we are speaking about a culture not an ethnic group. On the other hand coming back to the origins of DF27 the only thing we can confirm is that the oldest sample has been found in Quedlinburg (Germany) until date. For instance I remain sitting on a direct confirmed haplogrup downstream ZZ12_1 which is the major subclade under DF27 together with Z195. It´s quite possible that the real origin of ZZ12_1 must be placed somewhere in the Western Area of France (New Aquitaine?). This is just and hypothesis. And the same must have happened with most major clades under DF27 but in different parts of France. The biggest problem of all this has to do with the restrictive laws applied by french authorities who forbid this kind of dna tests among our french cousins. What means it would be quite impossible to close our philogenetic trees to guess about our real origins in the near term. Maybe some day in future. Who knows. And in the meantime just taking a wait and see attitude waiting for a kind of miracle. As you well know patience is a virtue in genetics. Best

My DF27>ZZ12 comes from North Lombardy (Italy). I wonder whether I'm the only one...

MitchellSince1893
10-31-2019, 04:47 PM
Yesterday I quoted you and posted (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand&p=615215&viewfull=1#post615215) where I realized an even bigger cause of the difference in stats for Spain between the FTDNA haplotree and the YFull tree (which more closely matched academic studies) is that haplogroups E, G, and J1-M267 have a larger percentage than both YFull and academic studies of Spain. G and J1-M267 have the largest differences. There is also a difference in haplogroup I and J2-M172 so they are also contributing to the difference. So yes I1, I2, J1, and J2 are over represented, as well as G and E, in the FTDNA tree and it is likely due to samples largely being from the U.S., through Latin America, but with ancestry from Spain.

Thanks for that. For some reason I often don’t get notifications of members quoting me...works fine for thanks to my posts.

So based on the above, any thoughts on whether to include R1a...just trying to decide at what point to stop before the data gets out of wack.

Dalluin
10-31-2019, 05:32 PM
My DF27>ZZ12 comes from North Lombardy (Italy). I wonder whether I'm the only one...

Welcome on board : my subclade of DF27 is more accurate but also isolated and I have no idea at all of the erratic path traveled !!

MitchellSince1893
10-31-2019, 07:39 PM
...This difference is likely due to so many people from Latin America with the MDKA from Spain, most living in the U.S., as part of the database as opposed to academic studies using specimens from within Spain. The YFull tree has some 1000 Genomes kits from Spain which balances out this phenomenon a bit.
This would imply that certain haplogroups in Spain were much more likely to come to the New World and flourish than others.

I wonder what would cause this difference. Certain haplogroups in Spain dominated occupations that were more likely to travel to the New World? Or is it a founder effect situation?

ArmandoR1b
10-31-2019, 08:12 PM
Thanks for that. For some reason I often don’t get notifications of members quoting me...works fine for thanks to my posts.

So based on the above, any thoughts on whether to include R1a...just trying to decide at what point to stop before the data gets out of wack.

The lack of notifications about getting quoted happens to me at times also. It's a reason out pointed out my prior post. Including R1a would still be more accurate than it originally was. The difference being that we now know that it isn't the same as using kits just from the Old World.

ArmandoR1b
10-31-2019, 08:14 PM
This would imply that certain haplogroups in Spain were much more likely to come to the New World and flourish than others.

I wonder what would cause this difference. Certain haplogroups in Spain dominated occupations that were more likely to travel to the New World? Or is it a founder effect situation?

It's a mix of reasons that should have it's own thread.

Shadogowah
10-31-2019, 08:31 PM
That is a great point for when and how did it expand?

I lack the knowledge about prehistory to produce a sensible well documented answer and even if I guess a bit of the truth, probably I am not discovering anything new but most likely I am just repeating something that someone has suggested and/or written before.

… If human beings have not changed too much in thousands of years, back then they also traded, fought and conquered in search of wealth, fame and power.

I think these people looked for tin and copper with the same greed that others would search for gold and silver in the coming millenia.

One of the most important metallurgical centers of Europe at that time is still being exploited today as it was back in the copper and bronze age.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Tinto_(river)

I can imagine these people hearing rumours, myths and legends about the wealthy people that live in a place where the precious metals are abundant and easy to harvest.

They had to travel far to the west looking for a red river and I think many could have chosen a Mediterranean maritime route.

Ric
10-31-2019, 10:00 PM
... many could have chosen a Mediterranean maritime route.
Possible, but you are implying that they were navigating knowing their destination, which in turns implies some sort of a map of the Mediterranean coast.

We may consider several embarcation places: somewhere on the shore of the Adriatic sea, or the Aegean sea, or the Black sea.
But also should also consider the northern coast of Europe around the Netherland since DF27 was living nearby. Perhaps they embarked near places like today's Amsterdam or Rotterdam, in which case they may have called the first city settled in the Iberian peninsula "New Amsterdam" in Nordwestblock language. Haha, it would be funny.
First let's consider the Northern point of embarcation, somewhere in the Netherlands, Belgium, or Calais. The true destination may have been the cliffs of Dover in England, which are visible from Calais so it is not a crazy adventure to attempt the crossing. And then perhaps, while in the middle of the Channel, some decided to continue westward and
then southwestward, passing Brittany all the way to Spain or Portugal. But some sailors will tell you that crossing the coasts of Brittany is like being right of the middle of the Atlantic. It's rough, and navigating Portuguese coastline is no less difficult. Crossing 20 miles of Channel between Dover and Calais may be doable on a raft, but I doubt you will make it to Brittany without a good boat and good navigational knowledge.

Now navigating the Mediterranean sea from the southern shores of Europe may be easier, but in my opinion you' ll need a map anyway because if you just follow the coasts you have to turn around the Italian peninsula and Greece (if you come from the Black sea), and all these turns North and South make no sense if your only instruction is like you are being told to sail west. So again, assuming they knew that the destination was the Mediterranean coast of Spain, a map of the Mediterranean coast would make the navigation so much easier. But I like the idea of navigating from the Black sea to Spain. By the way Wikipedia indicates the straight of Bosporus was open in 5600Bc at least https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosporus
Then crossing the Aegean sea is really difficult with all these islands, but if you have a map it's doable. In addition, because Polaris was not useful as a star to indicate the North in 2600BC, you need a map even more.

So, could these early indo European navigators have acquired maps from the Babylonians or Egyptians ? did they hire Egyptian skippers ? Ironically they may have left an early Troy, as many other IE claim, but by sea rather than land. And also how do you transform a Yamna who is culturally a cattle herdler into a sailor ?

MitchellSince1893
10-31-2019, 11:41 PM
Stopping at Haplogroup K (Includes haplogroups K-T)

For DF27 in the FTDNA database.

Country total K samples, DF27% of K
Equatorial Guinea 1 100.0%
Mozambique 1 100.0%
Spain 723 55.2%
Portugal 327 53.5%
Haiti 4 50.0%
Puerto Rico 50 50.0%
Brazil 54 42.6%
Argentina 10 40.0%
Chile 21 38.1%
Cuba 21 33.3%
Dominican Republic 3 33.3%
El Salvador 26 30.8%
Venezuela 7 28.6%
France 1249 26.6%
Costa Rica 8 25.0%
Colombia 36 22.2%
Barbados 11 18.2%
Algeria 18 16.7%
Belgium 185 15.7%
England 5229 12.7%
Canada 183 12.6%
Mexico 590 12.0%
Switzerland 529 11.7%
United States 2805 11.5%
United Kingdom 1953 10.4%
Netherlands 435 10.1%
Northern Ireland 624 9.5%
Ecuador 11 9.1%
Luxembourg 24 8.3%
Italy 745 8.3%
Wales 523 8.0%
Scotland 3856 7.4%
Germany 2909 7.2%
Malta 14 7.1%
Denmark 213 7.0%
Peru 17 5.9%
Isle of Man 36 5.6%
New Zealand 18 5.6%
Ireland 5921 5.0%
Czech Republic 270 4.8%
South Africa 21 4.8%
Bulgaria 90 4.4%
Sweden 1397 4.4%
Belarus 213 4.2%
Hungary 315 3.5%
Ukraine 445 2.9%
Austria 180 2.8%
Australia 39 2.6%
Norway 825 2.5%
Greece 126 2.4%
United States (Native American) 619 2.3%
Poland 1463 2.3%
Qatar 52 1.9%
Romania 109 1.8%
Armenia 143 1.4%
Lebanon 76 1.3%
Slovakia 161 1.2%
Latvia 86 1.2%
Iran 94 1.1%
Lithuania 339 0.9%
Finland 1968 0.9%
Philippines 164 0.6%
Turkey 230 0.4%
Russian Federation 1819 0.3%

MitchellSince1893
11-01-2019, 03:20 AM
Yesterday I quoted you and posted (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand&p=615215&viewfull=1#post615215) where I realized an even bigger cause of the difference in stats for Spain between the FTDNA haplotree and the YFull tree (which more closely matched academic studies) is that haplogroups E, G, and J1-M267 have a larger percentage than both YFull and academic studies of Spain. G and J1-M267 have the largest differences. There is also a difference in haplogroup I and J2-M172 so they are also contributing to the difference. So yes I1, I2, J1, and J2 are over represented, as well as G and E, in the FTDNA tree and it is likely due to samples largely being from the U.S., through Latin America, but with ancestry from Spain.


I just remembered I ran into a similar problem 3 years ago when I was using FTDNA project numbers. Alex Williamson (owner of bigtree.net) theorized

Could it be that men with non-R1b predicted haplogroups are more likely to confirm those predictions via SNP testing? You might be able to test that by checking if counties with a higher proportion of non-R1b men are over-represented compared to those with a lower proportion of non-R1b.

I did a little experiment and found in the British DNA project
Non R haplotypes are 11% more likely to have a confirmed SNP test compared to R haplotype, and thus will be over represented in the FTDNA data.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6154-Y-DNA-Haplogroup-Percentages-and-maps-for-England-Source-FTDNA-Y-DNA-projects&p=131977&viewfull=1#post131977

When I apply an 11% reduction to the total of all non R1b haplogroups in Spain I get the following

593 R1b samples in Spain of which 399 are DF27

1155 non R1b in Spain
29: R-M420
2: R-M479
19: Q-M24
7: K-F549
73: LT-L298
623: IJ-P124
1: H-L901
140: G-M201
5: C-M216
255: DE-M145
1: B-M181

As I previously stated DF27 makes up 22.8% of the total. If I reduce the 1155 non R1b by 11% it only gets DF27 to 24.6% so the adjustment percentage that worked for the British Isles isn't working in the case of Spain.

Menchaca
11-01-2019, 05:36 AM
Welcome on board : my subclade of DF27 is more accurate but also isolated and I have no idea at all of the erratic path traveled !!

Well, I'm stuck in norhteastern Mexico and have no idea where my Y branch came from, could be from Spain, Portugal or even France.

In ytree.net I'm surrounded by people with mdka's in Portugal. But that is in historical times, who knows where their ancestors were 3,500-4,500 years ago.

razyn
11-01-2019, 05:40 AM
As I previously stated DF27 makes up 22.8% of the total. If I reduce the 1155 non R1b by 11% it only gets DF27 to 24.6% so the adjustment percentage that worked for the British Isles isn't working in the case of Spain.

Is it possible that the fascination with testing Basques -- or people who think they might have Basque ancestry (and think that would be cool, sort of in the manner of Native Americans of the "Wannabee" tribe), has also skewed the proportions of the DF27 sample, to date? Some early investigations in this field, including the 1000 Genomes Project, were trying to use the new DNA tests (among other goals) to distinguish Basque origins from those of the more populous speakers of Indo-European languages. Hence the wildly over-tested (at FTDNA) sample for M153 -- a DF27 subclade that has turned out really not to be all that old, nor all that large a population, but nonetheless appears really to be more prevalent among Basques than elsewhere. Just not since the last Ice Age.

I don't think this would account for the high percentage of DF27 in Portugal, but it might influence other Iberian proportions, particularly in mountainous areas. And that might have more to do with mineral or pastoral resources than with the more ancient ethnolinguistic antecedents of the people occupying those environmental niches.

Shadogowah
11-01-2019, 09:36 AM
Well, I'm stuck in norhteastern Mexico and have no idea where my Y branch came from, could be from Spain, Portugal or even France.

In ytree.net I'm surrounded by people with mdka's in Portugal. But that is in historical times, who knows where their ancestors were 3,500-4,500 years ago.

Hi Menchaca,

FGC20764 is still a very old mutation. It is no surprise that all the carriers look quite heterogeneous.

Is it that you didn't take BigY or just that there are no matches available and you are hanging on a node on your own with a lot of private mutations?

Shadogowah
11-01-2019, 10:51 AM
Now navigating the Mediterranean sea from the southern shores of Europe may be easier, but in my opinion you' ll need a map anyway because if you just follow the coasts you have to turn around the Italian peninsula and Greece (if you come from the Black sea), and all these turns North and South make no sense if your only instruction is like you are being told to sail west. So again, assuming they knew that the destination was the Mediterranean coast of Spain, a map of the Mediterranean coast would make the navigation so much easier. But I like the idea of navigating from the Black sea to Spain. By the way Wikipedia indicates the straight of Bosporus was open in 5600Bc at least https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosporus
Then crossing the Aegean sea is really difficult with all these islands, but if you have a map it's doable. In addition, because Polaris was not useful as a star to indicate the North in 2600BC, you need a map even more.

So, could these early indo European navigators have acquired maps from the Babylonians or Egyptians ? did they hire Egyptian skippers ? Ironically they may have left an early Troy, as many other IE claim, but by sea rather than land. And also how do you transform a Yamna who is culturally a cattle herdler into a sailor ?

Well, I was aiming at the arrival from groups already present in western Europe probably durign the first half of the third millenium bC coming from southern French and/or Italian coasts. They have heard about the mineral richness of Iberia and got in contact with what remains from the megalithic cultures there.

Instead of a route crossing the Pyrenees, I can see armed groups coasting Catalonia and Valencia and taking over Los Millares and later continuing progress to the north towards Humanejos and Zambujal.

ArmandoR1b
11-01-2019, 12:31 PM
I just remembered I ran into a similar problem 3 years ago when I was using FTDNA project numbers. Alex Williamson (owner of bigtree.net) theorized


I did a little experiment and found in the British DNA project
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6154-Y-DNA-Haplogroup-Percentages-and-maps-for-England-Source-FTDNA-Y-DNA-projects&p=131977&viewfull=1#post131977

When I apply an 11% reduction to the total of all non R1b haplogroups in Spain I get the following

593 R1b samples in Spain of which 399 are DF27

1155 non R1b in Spain
29: R-M420
2: R-M479
19: Q-M24
7: K-F549
73: LT-L298
623: IJ-P124
1: H-L901
140: G-M201
5: C-M216
255: DE-M145
1: B-M181

As I previously stated DF27 makes up 22.8% of the total. If I reduce the 1155 non R1b by 11% it only gets DF27 to 24.6% so the adjustment percentage that worked for the British Isles isn't working in the case of Spain.

The rate of a phenomenon with one group of people can't be applied to another group that has a completely different history and economic situation. The reasons for people from Spain migrating to the Americas and then their descendants getting DNA testing hundreds of years later is completely different. Also it's known fact that as a general rule among the Hispanics in the Americas and the U.S. there is less money. There is also less interest. Posting about this could cause the thread the deviate a lot from subject of DF27.

ArmandoR1b
11-01-2019, 01:22 PM
Is it possible that the fascination with testing Basques -- or people who think they might have Basque ancestry (and think that would be cool, sort of in the manner of Native Americans of the "Wannabee" tribe), has also skewed the proportions of the DF27 sample, to date? Some early investigations in this field, including the 1000 Genomes Project, were trying to use the new DNA tests (among other goals) to distinguish Basque origins from those of the more populous speakers of Indo-European languages. Hence the wildly over-tested (at FTDNA) sample for M153 -- a DF27 subclade that has turned out really not to be all that old, nor all that large a population, but nonetheless appears really to be more prevalent among Basques than elsewhere. Just not since the last Ice Age.

I don't think this would account for the high percentage of DF27 in Portugal, but it might influence other Iberian proportions, particularly in mountainous areas. And that might have more to do with mineral or pastoral resources than with the more ancient ethnolinguistic antecedents of the people occupying those environmental niches.

That doesn't even make any sense. There is a higher rate of E, G, I, and J1-M267 and FTDNA among kits from Spain that there is in the academic studies and at YFull for kits from Spain. The difference is where the testers reside. There are a lot of different people from the U.S. through Latin America, and in Latin America, with a lot of different theories, some true, about their ancestry. Many of them don't even know who the Basque are or care. Those are the people that are skewing the results at FTDNA as compared to kits actually from Spain. The FTDNA tree doesn't even use 1000 Genomes and 1000 Genomes isn't skewed towards any specific part of Spain. The academic studies such as Solé-Morata 2017 tested included Andalacucía and it has 47% DF27 and it is above 40% in all other tested areas of Spain except Cataluña and Valencia which are above 30% and weren't a significant source of migration to Latin America. Books such as The Encomenderos of New Spain, 1521-1555 Robert Himmerich y Valencia shows that a higher proportion of migrants from Spain were from Andalucía and Extremadura compared to the rest.

M153 isn't wildly over represented, regardless of how much it was tested, at FTDNA either. It's only 6% of the 399 kits from Spain. That's not an unreasonable rate since there were a lot of Basques that migrated to the New World, even though Andalucía and Extremadura were at higher proportions, since a lot of them were sailors and ship builders and have sailed to the New World since Columbus and there are a lot of Basque surnames in Latin America. The rate of M153 would probably remain similar if the P312 kits without Deep Clade testing and without testing of DF27 were to get the P312 SNP pack. Wildly over-testing doesn't translate to wildly over-represented. They are two different things.

razyn
11-01-2019, 11:29 PM
That doesn't even make any sense...
[and]
...Wildly over-testing doesn't translate to wildly over-represented. They are two different things.

Well I began with a question, not a statement. Thanks for answering, try not to be snarky about it. And I don't disagree that they are two different things; but I don't think they are wholly unrelated. The testing of M153 went on for a decade or so; and scientific literature was produced during that time, that didn't consider the unknown DF27 mutation. But it did look intensively for some genetic thing that Basques have, and others do not have. M153 was one of the things. FTDNA tested for it (in the Deep Clade test, and singly) during that period, and so did other companies, labs, projects [Sorensen, Cambridge, Oxford, BritainsDNA, Francalacci]. MitchellSince1893's last post was about FTDNA stats, but other posts in this thread have discussed literature, YFull, the Big Tree, etc. that are not limited to what FTDNA shows -- and are aware of the 1000 Genomes data.

So, I was being a little broad-brush, but I'm not completely out of my mind, about this.

Menchaca
11-02-2019, 12:45 AM
Hi Menchaca,

FGC20764 is still a very old mutation. It is no surprise that all the carriers look quite heterogeneous.

Is it that you didn't take BigY or just that there are no matches available and you are hanging on a node on your own with a lot of private mutations?

Shadogowah,

I did take BigY (the 500 version). I have a match at 5/67 STR who tested for FGC20764 on my suggestion and tested positive, but he hasn't been able to go ahead ($) with NGS. I'm sure when he does we'll be able to form a new block with many of my current private SNP's. This person also traces his MDKA to northeastern Mexico, but that could be a coincidence (a big one I guess), I suppose our TMRCA (at 5/67 GD) could predate the colonization of America.

Currently, I'm here:

https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1637&star=false

ArmandoR1b
11-02-2019, 01:52 AM
Well I began with a question, not a statement. Thanks for answering, try not to be snarky about it. And I don't disagree that they are two different things; but I don't think they are wholly unrelated. The testing of M153 went on for a decade or so; and scientific literature was produced during that time, that didn't consider the unknown DF27 mutation. But it did look intensively for some genetic thing that Basques have, and others do not have. M153 was one of the things. FTDNA tested for it (in the Deep Clade test, and singly) during that period, and so did other companies, labs, projects [Sorensen, Cambridge, Oxford, BritainsDNA, Francalacci]. MitchellSince1893's last post was about FTDNA stats, but other posts in this thread have discussed literature, YFull, the Big Tree, etc. that are not limited to what FTDNA shows -- and are aware of the 1000 Genomes data.

So, I was being a little broad-brush, but I'm completely not out of my mind, about this.

They are wholly unrelated. If someone is negative for an SNP that they are tested for it is not going to show in the list of positive SNPs. It doesn't matter that M153 was intensively looked for since a person that is negative for M153 will have that reflected in the results. You can't have an imbalance due to something looked for intensively when the tests will accurately reflect the negatives. It's not like there was a problem with the test itself.

The problem that MitchellSince1893 was posting about was about the YFull stats compared to the FTDNA stats. Both YFull and 1000 Genomes tested all haplogroups. Some of the scientific literature that I have referred to has reported just the positive rate of DF27 but as stated earlier the negative SNPs aren't going to cause the difference that caused the post.

The only problem that the Deep Clade test has caused is a lot of people tested for P312 but not for DF27 since DF27 wasn't identified until after that test was released. That isn't the largest cause of the imbalance though. The largest cause of the imbalance is a higher rate of European, Middle Eastern, and North African haplogroups other than R1b in Latin America as opposed to Spain.

The 1000 Genomes project used 50 geographical areas corresponding to the 50 administrative provinces (geographical areas surrounding a medium-large city) which constitute Spain, including the area in the Iberian Peninsula as well as the islands. So it isn't as if there is a geographical area that was overrepresented in 1000 Genomes.

The project map at https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11364-FTDNA-R1b-Project-Maps&p=615793&viewfull=1#post615793 by MitchellSince1893 has data that correlates 100% with the data from YFull. Both have 67% DF27 out of all R1b individuals. So up to that point there isn't even a difference between FTDNA and YFull or FTDNA and scientific literature.

Shadogowah
11-02-2019, 11:19 AM
Shadogowah,

I did take BigY (the 500 version). I have a match at 5/67 STR who tested for FGC20764 on my suggestion and tested positive, but he hasn't been able to go ahead ($) with NGS. I'm sure when he does we'll be able to form a new block with many of my current private SNP's. This person also traces his MDKA to northeastern Mexico, but that could be a coincidence (a big one I guess), I suppose our TMRCA (at 5/67 GD) could predate the colonization of America.

Currently, I'm here:

https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1637&star=false

Well, that makes you Y31379.

It is also old but not "that" old. You are hanging from a block that Alex W dates around 1000 bC. Already after the big north/south split and it seems to be Iberian.

Your "modern" European ancestry most likely was northern Spanish (as mine). Your closer relatives are Portuguese although your surname is clearly Basque.

Shadogowah
11-02-2019, 11:31 AM
They are wholly unrelated. If someone is negative for an SNP that they are tested for it is not going to show in the list of positive SNPs. It doesn't matter that M153 was intensively looked for since a person that is negative for M153 will have that reflected in the results. You can't have an imbalance due to something looked for intensively when the tests will accurately reflect the negatives. It's not like there was a problem with the test itself.

The problem that MitchellSince1893 was posting about was about the YFull stats compared to the FTDNA stats. Both YFull and 1000 Genomes tested all haplogroups. Some of the scientific literature that I have referred to has reported just the positive rate of DF27 but as stated earlier the negative SNPs aren't going to cause the difference that caused the post.

The only problem that the Deep Clade test has caused is a lot of people tested for P312 but not for DF27 since DF27 wasn't identified until after that test was released. That isn't the largest cause of the imbalance though. The largest cause of the imbalance is a higher rate of European, Middle Eastern, and North African haplogroups other than R1b in Latin America as opposed to Spain.

The 1000 Genomes project used 50 geographical areas corresponding to the 50 administrative provinces (geographical areas surrounding a medium-large city) which constitute Spain, including the area in the Iberian Peninsula as well as the islands. So it isn't as if there is a geographical area that was overrepresented in 1000 Genomes.

The project map at https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11364-FTDNA-R1b-Project-Maps&p=615793&viewfull=1#post615793 by MitchellSince1893 has data that correlates 100% with the data from YFull. Both have 67% DF27 out of all R1b individuals. So up to that point there isn't even a difference between FTDNA and YFull or FTDNA and scientific literature.

I don't know if this agrees with your view or not but I also suspect that Spain became "northified" during imperial age. Besides the expulsion of Jews and moors we also had the social pressure exerted on the "new Christians" that pushed them to seek greener pastures in America, the densely populated south west also suffered several pests that killed many and brought more repopulation from the north.

I think current Spaniards and more specially modern Andalusians are probably much more shifted northwards in genetic terms than XV century Andalusians.

ArmandoR1b
11-02-2019, 03:13 PM
I don't know if this agrees with your view or not but I also suspect that Spain became "northified" during imperial age. Besides the expulsion of Jews and moors we also had the social pressure exerted on the "new Christians" that pushed them to seek greener pastures in America, the densely populated south west also suffered several pests that killed many and brought more repopulation from the north.

I think current Spaniards and more specially modern Andalusians are probably much more shifted northwards in genetic terms than XV century Andalusians.

It does agree with my view, and it is some of what I was alluding to, but there would need to be testing of a lot of specimens from Spain and the New World from just prior, during, and after each of the events. There also needs to be a project similar to 1000 Genomes project for each country in the the New World and Spain with at least 1000 specimens per country with more in the countries with larger populations. That way there is a larger dataset with more accuracy and the change in haplogroups, and the rate, is based on empirical data as opposed to just historical information. There are already some specimens from the Moorish period but there should be a lot more. I hope these posts don't cause the thread to go to far off topic from DF27.

Webb
11-20-2019, 09:06 PM
34788

I haven’t posted on here for awhile because my work computer now prevents me from accessing the site due to an adult catergorization by my work IT people. Anyways, this is sort for this thread and a response to Razyn’s thread about not believing everything you read. I posted a picture of my breakdown of DF27>L165 using the L165 project’s results page. Jean Manco labeled L165 as clade that originated most probably in Scandinavia. She also labeled many other clades of DF27 as originating in Iberia. If you have been DF27 for a long time then you are aware of the habit of us being labeled as being from certain areas by people who really don’t have a full understanding of DF27 and it’s tree structure. This is to be expected when other groups earlier claimed to be Insular Celts, or Alpine Celts, etc. I posted this picture to show that there are three branches directly below L165. The two largest branches contain mostly Scottish names. The one branch is dated by Ytree as formed around 2294BC. The other large branch was formed around 818BC. This means that these two branches haven’t shared a common ancestor since 818BC, at the most recent. There are very few Scandinavian kits in the L165 group. They are actually just as many French kits. What are that chances that two Viking men who haven’t been related since 818BC fathered this large number of Scottish clans? How many unbiased parties would look at my diagram, then look at the kits in the L165 project and come to the conclusion that L165 is Scandinavian? The same assumptions are made when pushing that DF27 originated in Iberia. I don’t know where DF27 originated to be honest. I suspect somewhere closer to middle Europe, using subclade age and distribution, relationships with other P312 clades. I can also post some diagrams of other DF27 clades that seem to be very specific to Ireland and Scotland as well.

Webb
11-21-2019, 08:44 PM
34802

This is the second subclde that I have found that seems particular to Scotland. Below is a link to a paper that was written where it was supposed that Douglas, Sutherland, and Murray were all started by Freskin of Moray, a Flemish Knight. If you look at the FTDNA project pages of Sutherland and Douglas, you will see that the DF27 Douglas clust far outnumbers any other cluster. The same for the DF27 Sutherland cluster. What is also interesting is the location of Sutherland in Caithness. Using the dates at Ytree, which haven’t been updated in awhile, you will see that FGC23079, associated with Douglas was formed around 426B.C., while BY48361, associated with Sutherland, does not have a formed date, but using the date that FGC23079 was formed, 426B.C., it appears to me that both clans are most likely not descendants of Freskin de Moray. Something else that is interesting is that FabricE who posts here often in the French sub forum is FGC23079 and is a Breton.

http://flemish.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/2016/02/26/the-murray-sutherland-and-douglas-families-were-they-related-and-were-they-flemish/

Barraman
12-22-2019, 03:42 PM
Not sure if this heat map is outdated but I find it interesting that DF27 is almost entirely absent in Scotland other than the Outer Hebrides.


35564

ADW_1981
12-23-2019, 03:06 AM
Not sure if this heat map is outdated but I find it interesting that DF27 is almost entirely absent in Scotland other than the Outer Hebrides.


35564

I'd take that map with a grain of salt. It should be light pink just about everywhere in Europe, unless of course the grey represents a lack of data, which it might. It's definitely present in Scotland, just at low level. What you could suggest from the data is that DF27+ is considerably higher in England than either Scotland and Ireland, (for example)

ArmandoR1b
12-23-2019, 04:08 AM
Not sure if this heat map is outdated but I find it interesting that DF27 is almost entirely absent in Scotland other than the Outer Hebrides.


35564

A more accurate map created by MitchellSince1893 of R1b haplogroups based on the samples in the FTDNA public haplotree can be found at https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?hl=en&mid=11hkadkeXPzEqpZGaAE93hCflccAj_44u&ll=47.85281893083755%2C20.797406249999995&z=4

Out of 3516 R1b-M343 samples whose MDA is from Scotland there are 8.16% that tested positive for DF27.

The map was originally posted in his thread at https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11364-FTDNA-R1b-Project-Maps

Webb
12-23-2019, 03:32 PM
If using P312* as a proxy for DF27 in the Underhill/ Myres excel spreadsheet we have this:

Portugal: 44%
Spain: 42% with Seville highest at 52%

Rhone Provences
Var: 35%
Bouches du Rhone: 32%
Vaucluse: 30%
Alpes: 29%

France: 26% with France South the highest at 29%
Switzerland: 15% with Northwest Switzerland highest at 19%
Ireland: 14% with Southwest Ireland highest at 23%
England: 10% with Central England highest at 12%

France, England, and Switzerland P312* might very well have DF19 and DF99 included in these samples, so these three could be iffy. But Spain, Portugal, Rhone Povences, and Ireland are probably mostly DF27.

Webb
12-23-2019, 03:58 PM
Last week I was perusing through the supplementary data from the paper, "Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of Iberian Y-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ". I noticed that the spreadsheet of the clades they tested for did not match the heat maps they have. I noticed something that I thought was very interesting.

Z220: 123 Catalonia, 62 Basque

Z278: 41 Catalonia, 46 Basque

M153: 9 Catalonia, 15 Basque

I find this interesting because the heat maps show Z220 as being more concentrated in the Basque area, but according to the tables it is much higher in Catalonia. You can see the shift from Catalonia to the Basque area as one moves down snps. Many years ago Alan had hypothesized a entry of DF27 into Spain via the Eastern Pyrenees, while I don't know if it applies to all of DF27, it seems to be a good theory for Z195 based on the numbers I posted above.

The other pattern that I noticed is the samples that R.Rocca called as DF27 from the large Iberian Paper shows all of the Z195 samples were found in Catalonia. In contrast the no ZZ12 samples were found in Catalonia. Three were from Castille y Leon, one was from Valencia, one from Andalusia, and one was from Gibraltar.

MitchellSince1893
12-23-2019, 06:10 PM
If using P312* as a proxy for DF27 in the Underhill/ Myres excel spreadsheet we have this:

Portugal: 44%
Spain: 42% with Seville highest at 52%

Rhone Provences
Var: 35%
Bouches du Rhone: 32%
Vaucluse: 30%
Alpes: 29%

France: 26% with France South the highest at 29%
Switzerland: 15% with Northwest Switzerland highest at 19%
Ireland: 14% with Southwest Ireland highest at 23%
England: 10% with Central England highest at 12%

France, England, and Switzerland P312* might very well have DF19 and DF99 included in these samples, so these three could be iffy. But Spain, Portugal, Rhone Povences, and Ireland are probably mostly DF27.

This matches the highest percentage for DF27 I got a few years ago when I created this map using various FTDNA projects, but I also have DF27 high in Cornwall as well, which would make since if SW Ireland is the highest for Ireland...jumping off point?
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/27/64/29/276429d1201a10b7d87ab553420f8c6f.jpg

MitchellSince1893
12-23-2019, 07:38 PM
This matches the highest percentage for DF27 I got a few years ago when I created this map using various FTDNA projects, but I also have DF27 high in Cornwall as well

Interestingly, both West Midlands and Cornwall, share a common Iron Age tribal name, "Cornovii"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornovii_(Midlands)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornovii_(Cornwall)

May just be a coincidence, but who knows?

Webb
12-23-2019, 08:24 PM
This matches the highest percentage for DF27 I got a few years ago when I created this map using various FTDNA projects, but I also have DF27 high in Cornwall as well, which would make since if SW Ireland is the highest for Ireland...jumping off point?
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/27/64/29/276429d1201a10b7d87ab553420f8c6f.jpg

I really liked your maps and saved copies of them to my phone and my desktop. The same study did test U152. U152 in Englad was 9% with South East at 16%, but they had Central England at 0. That is the problem with most of these studies, the sample sizes seem to vary from area to area. The most comprehensive studies have been the Iberian study and the one that did Rhone Provences.

Barraman
12-24-2019, 03:59 AM
A more accurate map created by MitchellSince1893 of R1b haplogroups based on the samples in the FTDNA public haplotree can be found at https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?hl=en&mid=11hkadkeXPzEqpZGaAE93hCflccAj_44u&ll=47.85281893083755%2C20.797406249999995&z=4

Out of 3516 R1b-M343 samples whose MDA is from Scotland there are 8.16% that tested positive for DF27.

The map was originally posted in his thread at https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11364-FTDNA-R1b-Project-Maps

Thanks for sharing this map. I recognize L21, DF27, U105, and U152 but there's a bunch that I don't recognize. The pie charts that I attached below is the closest to this that I had seen. It was always disappointing that they failed to include Scotland, Ireland, and England in these pie charts. I was curious to see L21 vs. DF27 concentrations in those three areas 35592

ArmandoR1b
12-24-2019, 12:53 PM
Thanks for sharing this map. I recognize L21, DF27, U105, and U152 but there's a bunch that I don't recognize.

The pie charts that I attached below is the closest to this that I had seen. It was always disappointing that they failed to include Scotland, Ireland, and England in these pie charts. I was curious to see L21 vs. DF27 concentrations in those three areas 35592

Z290 is between P312 and L21. The other P312 subclades can be seen at http://www.ytree.net/ For the other haplogroups you can search YFull with https://www.yfull.com/search-snp-in-tree/ and/or the FTDNA public haplotree at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-Z290 .

ArmandoR1b
12-24-2019, 01:04 PM
The other pattern that I noticed is the samples that R.Rocca called as DF27 from the large Iberian Paper shows all of the Z195 samples were found in Catalonia. In contrast the no ZZ12 samples were found in Catalonia. Three were from Castille y Leon, one was from Valencia, one from Andalusia, and one was from Gibraltar.

The specimens have a lot of damage and petrous bone was hardly used and they didn't use the shotgun approach so there are a huge number of SNPs that don't have coverage so there is no way to know if there are specimens from Catalonia that would be positive for ZZ12 if they had coverage. The DNA testing of ancient specimens isn't like DNA testing of modern samples.

MitchellSince1893
12-24-2019, 03:22 PM
Thanks for sharing this map. I recognize L21, DF27, U105, and U152 but there's a bunch that I don't recognize. The pie charts that I attached below is the closest to this that I had seen. It was always disappointing that they failed to include Scotland, Ireland, and England in these pie charts. I was curious to see L21 vs. DF27 concentrations in those three areas 35592
Scotland, Ireland, England, Wales found here.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?

Also if you click on pie charts on map link Armando provided, you get the percentages. For all practical purposes Z290 is approx equal to L21. Z290 includes a handful of brother Clade samples to L21

Webb
12-26-2019, 06:13 PM
The specimens have a lot of damage and petrous bone was hardly used and they didn't use the shotgun approach so there are a huge number of SNPs that don't have coverage so there is no way to know if there are specimens from Catalonia that would be positive for ZZ12 if they had coverage. The DNA testing of ancient specimens isn't like DNA testing of modern samples.

Trust me, I am the last one to state never, no way, or impossible. I am just making an observation of the samples that we do have, that have had calls made based on available data. By the way, Alex Williamson has added sample, ERS3573862/ R1220 to the Ytree. I am not sure when he added it, but I just caught it today.

Baraona
12-27-2019, 12:06 PM
By the way, Alex Williamson has added sample, ERS3573862/ R1220 to the Ytree. I am not sure when he added it, but I just caught it today.


Is that the Roman sample mentioned in (Antonio et al.2019)? I cant find more info.

Webb
12-27-2019, 02:11 PM
Is that the Roman sample mentioned in (Antonio et al.2019)? I cant find more info.

I believe so. If you do a google search on ERS3573862/R1220, one of the results is this:

https://phylogeographer.com/ancient-samples-map/

You have to keep blowing up the map until you zoom in on Italy. When you see J-Z62647, keep zooming. This sample is listed in the group found at this location, West Central Italy.

Webb
12-27-2019, 02:26 PM
Is that the Roman sample mentioned in (Antonio et al.2019)? I cant find more info.

I found this:

"Cancelleria - The Basilica of San Lorenzo in Damaso
Date Range: 771 calCE - 1411 calCE
Individuals: R1219, R1220, R1221, R1224, R1283, R1285, R1290, R1287, R1288, R1289, R1286
The Basilica of San Lorenzo was erected by Pope Damaso (366-384 CE) in south-western Campo
Marzio, reusing part of an architectural complex in which it is possible to recognize the buildings of the
factio prasina, one of the four factions of the circus (109–111). The Basilica, with three naves, occupied a
large area largely coinciding with that of the courtyard of the Palazzo della Cancelleria, in one of the most
central areas of Rome, halfway between Piazza Farnese and Piazza Navona.
Probably as early as the sixth century CE there are numerous burials (subsequently reworked several
times) that are carried out in the area of the church, in particular in a vast environment located close to the
south side of the building (112).
A radical transformation of the Basilica is recorded in the second quarter of the 11th century CE
following a fire, of which extensive traces have been found. In addition to conspicuous transformations of
a structural nature, the floor of all the sections of the Basilica was raised by about 1 m. In the church,
starting from this date until its destruction, numerous burials were built including several masonry
ossuaries. New changes to the structure of the church were made during the second half of the fifteenth
century. The numismatic artifacts found have allowed us to date, at the beginning of the last quarter of the
fifteenth century, a large mass grave in which hundreds of burials were deposited (SU17, SU30 and
SU471). In the way of organizing the burials it is likely to recognize the effects of a plague epidemic
which we know to have struck the city between 1476 and 1479 CE, a hypothesis that would also be
confirmed by the study of skeletal remains. In 1489 CE the building of the Palazzo della Cancelleria
begins and the church is totally destroyed. The population of this necropolis covers most of the Middle
Ages and is representative of the population of Rome of this period."

Its from this link:

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2019/11/06/366.6466.708.DC1/aay6826_Antonio_SM.pdf

Baraona
12-27-2019, 03:01 PM
i see. An "italian" medieval individual. So is not so ancient as I hoped.

runkefer
12-29-2019, 11:23 PM
Interesting, very much so. However, what is with the predominance of U152 in most countries outside Iberia as far as Ukraine. L21 is virtually non existent across Europe. - and DF27 at 41% in Belarus? Does this square with data from published studies?

I haven't been on this website for a long time, so I apologize for not answering this earlier.

A very important caveat to the DF27 countries of origin at FTDNA: there is a large cluster downstream of DF27>ZZ12>FGC20747 (FGC20759 to be specific) that consists exclusively of men with Jewish ancestry. The countries of origin are listed as Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Czech Republic, Slovakia, etc., but these Jewish populations only trace back to those countries in the 18th-20th centuries. Prior to that, they likely came from farther west, possibly from Spain/Portugal as a result of the Spanish Inquisition, or from elsewhere along the Mediterranean. Their closest matches are from Spain/Portugal, around 2,000 years ago. The eastern European location is much too recent and it muddies the data, at least in these cases. There are also smaller Jewish clusters under DF27 that might also be contributing to the "Eastern European" results.

I am one of the co-admins of the FGC20747 project and we've been very aggressive about NGS testing, so this Jewish cluster has a lot of samples and our tree has a lot of granularity
https://yfull.com/tree/R-V3476/

rms2
12-29-2019, 11:30 PM
. . . L21 is virtually non existent across Europe . . .

Of course, that is not true.

35653

ArmandoR1b
12-30-2019, 12:34 AM
Of course, that is not true.

35653

I don't think he was familiar with the discovery of Z290 and that L21 is downstream of Z290 based on what he quoted. Both MitchellSince1893 and I had informed him of the situation. He was actually questioning the validity of the data and the data is solid.

Barraman
12-31-2019, 12:09 AM
Scotland, Ireland, England, Wales found here.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?

Also if you click on pie charts on map link Armando provided, you get the percentages. For all practical purposes Z290 is approx equal to L21. Z290 includes a handful of brother Clade samples to L21

That's a broken link so I'm unable to see what you attached.

rms2
12-31-2019, 12:22 AM
I don't think he was familiar with the discovery of Z290 and that L21 is downstream of Z290 based on what he quoted. Both MitchellSince1893 and I had informed him of the situation. He was actually questioning the validity of the data and the data is solid.

Even without Z290, L21 is not "virtually non existent across Europe", but to me what matters more than modern distribution is ancient results. In that case thus far L21 has been missing in action except for Britain and Ireland, but its tmrca predates the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker there, so it must have originated somewhere on the Continent. The high level of steppe ancestry in British and Irish Kurgan Bell Beaker, and the fact that the Amesbury Archer was apparently born and raised in Alpine Central Europe, also make it unlikely that L21 originated in Britain or Ireland.

I'm hoping some L21 or Z290 turns up in Corded Ware or Kurgan Bell Beaker on the Continent soon (along with some more DF27 - my maternal grandfather's y haplogroup).

MitchellSince1893
12-31-2019, 01:26 AM
That's a broken link so I'm unable to see what you attached.
Try this one

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11364-FTDNA-R1b-Project-Maps&p=615793&viewfull=1#post615793

MitchellSince1893
12-31-2019, 01:29 AM
Even without Z290, L21 is not "virtually non existent across Europe", but to me what matters more than modern distribution is ancient results. In that case thus far L21 has been missing in action except for Britain and Ireland, but its tmrca predates the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker there, so it must have originated somewhere on the Continent. The high level of steppe ancestry in British and Irish Kurgan Bell Beaker, and the fact that the Amesbury Archer was apparently born and raised in Alpine Central Europe, also make it unlikely that L21 originated in Britain or Ireland.

I'm hoping some L21 or Z290 turns up in Corded Ware or Kurgan Bell Beaker on the Continent soon (along with some more DF27 - my maternal grandfather's y haplogroup).
I think what happened was he didn’t see “L21” in the results I posted and concluded that L21 was non existent based on not seeing it listed.

Barraman
12-31-2019, 02:58 AM
Surprising that there's almost twice as much DF27 in England as Scotland. Thank you for sharing, Mitchell!

ArmandoR1b
12-31-2019, 05:09 AM
Even without Z290, L21 is not "virtually non existent across Europe", but to me what matters more than modern distribution is ancient results. In that case thus far L21 has been missing in action except for Britain and Ireland, but its tmrca predates the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker there, so it must have originated somewhere on the Continent. The high level of steppe ancestry in British and Irish Kurgan Bell Beaker, and the fact that the Amesbury Archer was apparently born and raised in Alpine Central Europe, also make it unlikely that L21 originated in Britain or Ireland.

I'm hoping some L21 or Z290 turns up in Corded Ware or Kurgan Bell Beaker on the Continent soon (along with some more DF27 - my maternal grandfather's y haplogroup).

He was questioning the statistics of modern populations in the FamilyTreeDNA public haplotree that MitchellSince1893 posted which made it seem, to people that are unfamiliar with Z290 being representative of L21, that L21 is "virtually non existent across Europe". Neither he nor MitchellSince1893 nor the statistics were stating that L21 is "virtually non existent across Europe". There was been a huge misunderstanding of the statistics because of a misunderstanding of the the position of Z290 in relation to L21. His post with the quote of what MitchellSince1893 posted is at https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand&p=615061&viewfull=1#post615061 Seeing his full post and the quote of what MitchellSince1893 might help see where the misunderstanding first started and to see why the post by falconson1 is also misunderstood.

A somewhat humorous misunderstanding can be seen in a clip of The Irishman here (https://youtu.be/lWpsWLI_xD0?t=65).

ArmandoR1b
12-31-2019, 05:12 AM
I think what happened was he didn’t see “L21” in the results I posted and concluded that L21 was non existent based on not seeing it listed.

It's exactly what I think happened.

ADW_1981
01-03-2020, 04:01 PM
Even without Z290, L21 is not "virtually non existent across Europe", but to me what matters more than modern distribution is ancient results. In that case thus far L21 has been missing in action except for Britain and Ireland, but its tmrca predates the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker there, so it must have originated somewhere on the Continent. The high level of steppe ancestry in British and Irish Kurgan Bell Beaker, and the fact that the Amesbury Archer was apparently born and raised in Alpine Central Europe, also make it unlikely that L21 originated in Britain or Ireland.

I'm hoping some L21 or Z290 turns up in Corded Ware or Kurgan Bell Beaker on the Continent soon (along with some more DF27 - my maternal grandfather's y haplogroup).

I wonder if L21+ spawned from one of those Dutch beaker populations, but of course it would be nice to have other Beaker results from contemporaries in NW France.

rms2
01-03-2020, 04:20 PM
He was questioning the statistics of modern populations in the FamilyTreeDNA public haplotree that MitchellSince1893 posted which made it seem, to people that are unfamiliar with Z290 being representative of L21, that L21 is "virtually non existent across Europe". Neither he nor MitchellSince1893 nor the statistics were stating that L21 is "virtually non existent across Europe". There was been a huge misunderstanding of the statistics because of a misunderstanding of the the position of Z290 in relation to L21. His post with the quote of what MitchellSince1893 posted is at https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand&p=615061&viewfull=1#post615061 Seeing his full post and the quote of what MitchellSince1893 might help see where the misunderstanding first started and to see why the post by falconson1 is also misunderstood.

A somewhat humorous misunderstanding can be seen in a clip of The Irishman here (https://youtu.be/lWpsWLI_xD0?t=65).

Ah, well. I didn't see what he said in context, but, really, it doesn't matter much, since my answer was still valid: L21 isn't virtually non-existent across Europe. It shouldn't imply a criticism; it was merely a statement of fact.

MitchellSince1893
01-03-2020, 05:47 PM
Ah, well. I didn't see what he said in context, but, really, it doesn't matter much, since my answer was still valid: L21 isn't virtually non-existent across Europe. It shouldn't imply a criticism; it was merely a statement of fact.

Yes, in fact within R1b haplogroups, L21 is 2nd only to U106 in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and a strong 3rd in Latvia and France. L21 is 2nd only to DF27 in Portugal and Spain. I didn't calculate for Iceland but I think I remember L21 is pretty high there as well.

Along with the British Isles, L21 seems most prominent along the western and northern periphery of Europe.

Bollox79
01-05-2020, 10:57 PM
Quick question for you DF27 guys...

I want to get the Y5058 single SNP under DF27 for my Uncle O'Dwyer as that is the "Breassal Breac" SNP according to that DNA project and almost 50% of testers there and associated with the noble Gaelic families of O'Dwyer, O'Ryan and others of that cluster. I have pretty good evidence now via records and DNA that mother's father's (He was an O'Duibhir and his mother was a Mag Uidhir or Maguire) lines were descended from those noble families and their tribal family clusters. For instances I can find autosomal connections to Wicklow Dwyers and O'Byrnes... O'Dwyers from all over Southern and SW Ireland - Tipperary and Clare and other places - another rebel Cornelius O'Dwyer tried in Limerick and shipped out on the Atlas in 1802 to NSW, and distant cousin matches for my mother in NSW with our only link being Maguires from Kinawley near Enniskillen and possibly the father from Tempo. Also Armstrong ancestry from Fermanagh showing up in mom's or uncle's distant cousins and keeping in mind Armstrongs from Gilknockie married Maguires of the Junior line from Enniskillen - in Old Rossary where the possible father of the Kinawley Maguire was buried there are also Armstrong burials. Plenty of evidence for connections even distant and also Mom and Uncle (and I get 4%) have Southern Euro admixture about 10% South France or Northern Spain - and considering both O'Dwyers and Maguires were famous for serving in those foreign armies and considering their whole family tree are Irish or potato famine Irish and early colonial (1600s) in the States, they do not have any obvious SE admixture, but it has to be recent enough to show up... other than some of these family clusters were rather inbred and married 1st cousins and I can see that in my matches with surname clusters from Ireland and Western Scotland. Mom and Uncle got French and French Canadian cousins (so did I) from somewhere in Europe before the Maguires came over to Ontario as all their lines are Irish per lots of records I've found. Mom and Uncle also get MacDonald of Barra and a bunch of Hebrides and Highland matches, but that was also not via Ontario as I first thought it was (was all Irish in Ontario) so that got into the family over seas back in Ireland or W. Scotland etc... as I do know the MacDonalds came to Northern Ireland and became MacDonnells and mixed with the Maguire cluster up there... or perhaps at a slightly later time - I have that ancestry on both sides as it would appear there are also Highland and Hebrides matches I have that my Mother and Uncle do not have... autosomal DNA wooohooo such a spaghetti bowl especially with these Gaelic noble clans they remarried constantly among themselves!

Ok long story short I'd say my Uncle will have THE line of the Chieftains of the O'Dwyers - the last Chief was a Philip O'Dwyer and my 3rd GGF was a Philip O'Dwyer... etc etc and they were in Clare after the Cromwell stuff - very likely either O'Dwyers or Maguires or both went over to the continent as Wild Geese and came back to Ireland and then to the States or Ontario... that is the most likely situation via the data I currently have after renewing ancestry to search Irish and Canadian records, ancestry DNA test and also autosomal at FTDNA (mom and Uncle are there along with myself, I plan on getting them tested at ancestry also and doing Uncle's Y-DNA and Mom's mtDNA eventually)...

What would be the general story of DF27 as I'm not terribly familiar with it, but would like to brush up on it because of testing my Uncle soon at least for that SNP to get started... always a chance it's not positive... but fairly likely it will be...

Also considering that DF27 isn't super common Ireland (correct statement?) according to the modern distribution map... and the old tradition of tribes invading Ireland in Leinster and those tribes being from Northern Spain or Gaul... there might be some truth to that old trad via Y-DNA for these gaelic families in that cluster....

Thanks in advance,
Charlie "Cathal Dubh"

P.S. for anyone who might have similar family ties with some of those clusters like perhaps O'Dwyers? Here is the Breassal Breac DNA project: http://www.peterspioneers.com/breassalbreac.htm

Webb
01-06-2020, 01:56 PM
Quick question for you DF27 guys...

I want to get the Y5058 single SNP under DF27 for my Uncle O'Dwyer as that is the "Breassal Breac" SNP according to that DNA project and almost 50% of testers there and associated with the noble Gaelic families of O'Dwyer, O'Ryan and others of that cluster. I have pretty good evidence now via records and DNA that mother's father's (He was an O'Duibhir and his mother was a Mag Uidhir or Maguire) lines were descended from those noble families and their tribal family clusters. For instances I can find autosomal connections to Wicklow Dwyers and O'Byrnes... O'Dwyers from all over Southern and SW Ireland - Tipperary and Clare and other places - another rebel Cornelius O'Dwyer tried in Limerick and shipped out on the Atlas in 1802 to NSW, and distant cousin matches for my mother in NSW with our only link being Maguires from Kinawley near Enniskillen and possibly the father from Tempo. Also Armstrong ancestry from Fermanagh showing up in mom's or uncle's distant cousins and keeping in mind Armstrongs from Gilknockie married Maguires of the Junior line from Enniskillen - in Old Rossary where the possible father of the Kinawley Maguire was buried there are also Armstrong burials. Plenty of evidence for connections even distant and also Mom and Uncle (and I get 4%) have Southern Euro admixture about 10% South France or Northern Spain - and considering both O'Dwyers and Maguires were famous for serving in those foreign armies and considering their whole family tree are Irish or potato famine Irish and early colonial (1600s) in the States, they do not have any obvious SE admixture, but it has to be recent enough to show up... other than some of these family clusters were rather inbred and married 1st cousins and I can see that in my matches with surname clusters from Ireland and Western Scotland. Mom and Uncle got French and French Canadian cousins (so did I) from somewhere in Europe before the Maguires came over to Ontario as all their lines are Irish per lots of records I've found. Mom and Uncle also get MacDonald of Barra and a bunch of Hebrides and Highland matches, but that was also not via Ontario as I first thought it was (was all Irish in Ontario) so that got into the family over seas back in Ireland or W. Scotland etc... as I do know the MacDonalds came to Northern Ireland and became MacDonnells and mixed with the Maguire cluster up there... or perhaps at a slightly later time - I have that ancestry on both sides as it would appear there are also Highland and Hebrides matches I have that my Mother and Uncle do not have... autosomal DNA wooohooo such a spaghetti bowl especially with these Gaelic noble clans they remarried constantly among themselves!

Ok long story short I'd say my Uncle will have THE line of the Chieftains of the O'Dwyers - the last Chief was a Philip O'Dwyer and my 3rd GGF was a Philip O'Dwyer... etc etc and they were in Clare after the Cromwell stuff - very likely either O'Dwyers or Maguires or both went over to the continent as Wild Geese and came back to Ireland and then to the States or Ontario... that is the most likely situation via the data I currently have after renewing ancestry to search Irish and Canadian records, ancestry DNA test and also autosomal at FTDNA (mom and Uncle are there along with myself, I plan on getting them tested at ancestry also and doing Uncle's Y-DNA and Mom's mtDNA eventually)...

What would be the general story of DF27 as I'm not terribly familiar with it, but would like to brush up on it because of testing my Uncle soon at least for that SNP to get started... always a chance it's not positive... but fairly likely it will be...

Also considering that DF27 isn't super common Ireland (correct statement?) according to the modern distribution map... and the old tradition of tribes invading Ireland in Leinster and those tribes being from Northern Spain or Gaul... there might be some truth to that old trad via Y-DNA for these gaelic families in that cluster....

Thanks in advance,
Charlie "Cathal Dubh"

P.S. for anyone who might have similar family ties with some of those clusters like perhaps O'Dwyers? Here is the Breassal Breac DNA project: http://www.peterspioneers.com/breassalbreac.htm

This is a copy of a post I made on the Cornwall thread, but it is probably information you are looking for:

I agree. I would also like to see a good Ydna survey of Scotland, Wales, and Cornwall, similar to the Underhill/Myres studies. The spreadsheet I have the combines all three studies together reports P312(L21, M222, U152) as such:

Ireland Southwest: 23%
Ireland East: 19%
Ireland North: 14%
Ireland South: 13%

Being that it is Ireland, I would assume that most of this is DF27. If it was the continent then you would have to assume some would be DF19, DF99, or L238. But as these are not common in Ireland, then it should be mostly DF27. Plus there is the large Laigin Cluster, which is just what I call it. There is actually a link from the Wiki Laigin page to the Breasal Breac DNA project where they are claiming this large DF27 cluster are direct descendants of Breasal Breac. I'm not one to favor linking a group to an actual person, but the surnames in this cluster are all lineages associated with the Laigin. This cluster also shares a great grandfather SNP with the DF27 O'Neill group. The interesting thing about this group is that at the Family Tree DNA O'Neill project, the DF27 group is by far the largest. 111 DF27 O'Neills versus 82 M222 O'Niells. If you read about the Laigin, it is suggested they were an intrusive migration from either Briton or Gaul into Ireland no later than 500B.C. The third cluster is a DF17 cluster that is also from the Southwest area of Ireland and are distantly related, all with Gaelic surnames. I would be curious to see what DF27 or at the very least, P312(L21xM222xU152) looks like in the rest of the Celtic areas of Britain.

CillKenny
01-06-2020, 07:54 PM
P.S. for anyone who might have similar family ties with some of those clusters like perhaps O'Dwyers? Here is the Breassal Breac DNA project: http://www.peterspioneers.com/breassalbreac.htm

I think you have to draw a line at the beginning of the historic period in Ireland which essentially began in the 4th Century AD. Before then it is proto history at best and in the genealogies were part fictional pulling different groups together under a mythic past figure. Some of this may be true but very hard to prove to any level higher than an educated guess at this point. Other are fictions invented when newer groups wanted to appeal back into the mists of proto history to bulwark their claims in their own lifetimes. For instance, the history of Cathair Mar is a very good case in point. Most scholars think the addition of Fiacha Baicheda (from whom the Ui Dunlaigne and the Ui Chennselaig descend) is a later addition to the poem describing Cathair Mar's will designed to link them to past figures.

Bollox79
01-07-2020, 08:23 PM
I think you have to draw a line at the beginning of the historic period in Ireland which essentially began in the 4th Century AD. Before then it is proto history at best and in the genealogies were part fictional pulling different groups together under a mythic past figure. Some of this may be true but very hard to prove to any level higher than an educated guess at this point. Other are fictions invented when newer groups wanted to appeal back into the mists of proto history to bulwark their claims in their own lifetimes. For instance, the history of Cathair Mar is a very good case in point. Most scholars think the addition of Fiacha Baicheda (from whom the Ui Dunlaigne and the Ui Chennselaig descend) is a later addition to the poem describing Cathair Mar's will designed to link them to past figures.

CillKenny,

I am of a mind to agree with you - and to take the very ancient stuff with a grain of salt. I have heard some of the very old trees may be more mythology than real people!

I'll still get my Uncle O'Dwyer tested as I want that line (my mom's paternal line along with the maternal of that Grandfather Philip O'Dwyer being Maguire) in the O'Dwyer project etc. I am really more interested in figuring out the direct line of descent for my Philip O'Dwyer and Francis Maguire via those families of Kilnamanagh (and Wicklow/Glen of Imaal and Glenmalure apparently as we have distant cousins in New South Wales who are direct descendants of both Capt. Michael Dwyer and Lt. Hugh Vesty O'Byrne - all our shared ancestry being from Ireland - Michael and Hugh were 1st cousins and Hugh married Michael's sister I believe - so his 1st cousin also as Michael's mother was an O'Byrne and sister to Hugh if I am remembering correctly) and Maguires from Fermanagh: Kinawley near Enniskillen and also possibly back to Tempo show up in NSWales and all the State side families go back to the cluster of families from the Junior line via Hugh Maguire who died 1600... that same group that apparently had John Sigismund Maguire and Capt. Philip Franics Maguire (who was born in France circa 1740 - I plan on searching French records on that account - also O'Dwyers in France as early as early 1600s married to French nobility) etc - as I said some where along the way Mom and Uncle picked up Southern Euro (Northern Spain/Southern France and even possibly further east with Uncle according to FTDNA admixture, but I trust ancestry a bit more with admixture) when there is none in the family tree... so had to come from an Irish source that went to the continent and came back i.e. exiles/Wild Geese as those two families alone are famous for that. A number of Maguires/McGuires ended up over there after the flight of the Earls etc... and Six O'Dwyers as officers alone in the muster roll of Berwick's regiment in the Irish Brigade of France - another group I find are five O'Dwyer brothers all descended from a Captain Dermot O'Dwyer - Captain of Grenadiers in Spain - those five all served in different armies on the continent apparently!

Ahh also add a Cornelius (Connor?) O'Dwyer to the NSWales group - as he was tried in Limerick and sent to Australia on the Atlas in 1802 - I am sure it had to do with the 1798 Rebellion and United Irishmen etc... a distant cousin from New South Wales is a direct descendant of Cornelius... probably more if I dig deeper.

I see you have Tipperary as a flag! Other than the O'Dwyers/Maguires these are the Irish matches/DNA connections that I have started researching via my Mom's and Uncles (and my results before there results) in and around Ireland - also I am pretty sure my maternal line T2b2b in my sig comes from SW Ireland - perhaps near Limerick. I have the connections and clusters saved at ancestry as "research interests." Naturally I get the Munster and Leinster migrations at ancestry as my only European migration groups... though I have a lot of Northern Irish and Western Isles/Hebrides Scottish Highland matches also!

1) In my Uncle O'Dwyer's and Mom's matches I find McCarthy, McGrath, and O'Meagher ancestry from Tipperary and also Clare and they ended up in Australia similar to the O'Dwyers and O'Byrnes - probably as rebel convicts! Interesting tid-bit: When Philip O'Dwyer and his kin (several O'Dwyers present) raided Cashel in 1641 there was a Butler with him and a Tiege Og O'Meagher... That made me look for a possible family connection as those tribal families often intermarried and fought together etc - O'Meaghers were Chiefs of Ikerin in Tipperary I read. I originally started looking at O'Meagher in general as I found letters from a William O'Dwyer from Tipperary written to his mother about the terrible charge of O'Meagher's brigade in our American Civil War at Fredericksburg. He wrote how he saw so many of his countrymen fall around him and that they need some respite, but were not granted it on account of being newly immigrated to the country etc. Also someone smashed the box from his Uncle Charlie and stole his whiskey - really puts it perspective what our ancestors went through... he died of disease I believe on another campaign. I include a picture of O'Meagher's charge... and also in general all my family on both sides that were present in that time period fought on the Union side - my father's Lutheran German/Prussian and Scots-Irish side all fought for the North - three brothers of my 2nd GGF George Webster Weaver served (he was too young to serve) - two in the militia and one a career soldier - first a Pvt. then Corp. with the 12th PA Cavalry in the Civil War and then as 1st Sergeant of Company M with the US "Fightin' Sixth" Cavalry out west through the Reconstruction, Outlaw Wars, Red River War and Sioux and Apache Wars - he served over 26 years in the cavalry! 35765

I'm also just started a book called "How the Irish invaded Canada" since after the Civil War Irish who fought in both the Union and Confederate armies joined together under O'Neill to attack British interests in Canada ;-).

2) Allied noble Irish families of the O'Dwyers of Kilnamanagh (and these surnames show up often in my cousin matching - also Uncle's and Mom's results etc): Butler of Ormond (James Butler of Ballinrosse married Honora O'Dwyer - daughter of Philip O'Dwyer of Kilnamanagh), Fitzgerald, O'Shea/O'Shee (O'Shee/O'Shea and Richard O'Shee commander - Irish Regiment in service of the Spanish in Flanders - son Edmund O'Shee of Cloran married Catherine O'Dwyer of Dundrum, Purcell of Loughmore...

A note on this second one - I noticed a connection to the O'Shea/O'Shee family with O'Dwyer and it didn't take me very long to find distant Irish cousins O'Shee and O'Shea from the same area - Tipperary - they may be further evidence that my Mom's O'Dwyers were of Dundrum... I also see plenty of Butlers and FitzGeralds popping up from similar areas - but as always takes some real digging through trees to eliminate possible matches with other parts of my fam - I only include cousin matches with well sourced trees that I can confirm do no match me on any other part of my tree to these research interests - I make notes to myself (and others reading it) about all this on the profiles at my ancestry tree so I can keep track of it all!

3) I have more than 10 distant cousin matches who have this McGuire ancestry from Virginia and Trelee, Kerry and also Fermanagh: Maguires/McGuires of Lurg who were displaced in the 1600s and were descended from the Chiefly Maguire family of Fermanagh. I have found further evidence in my Uncle's and Mother's distant cousins of Maguire from Kinawley who ended up in NSWales and descend possibly from a Thomas Maguire, soldier and from Tempo according to his military record... and also distant cousins of Uncle and Mom who have Armstrong ancestry from Brooksboro in Fermanagh (Brooksboro being to the east of Enniskillen and Kinawley a bit SW of Enniskillen) - that being the Armstrong of Gilknockie in the Scottish borders and in particular a Captain Edward of the Borders who married a Margaret Maguire - daughter of a Capt. Thomas Maguire son of Hugh Maguire... it would appear this is the same group as Maguires and Armstrongs being buried at Old Rossary - that Thomas of Tempo (among other Maguires) may be the Thomas buried in Old Rossary and there are plenty of Armstrongs of Gilknockie buried there starting around the 1600s when they came over from the Borders. This Maguire cluster is interesting in my family as first I assumed my Mom's/Uncle's Scottish Jacobite highland ancestry was from Ontario - but it has to come from Ireland or Scotland since all lines back from the Maguire from Ontario are Irish and documented. With that in mind: Maguire allied families (all surnames show up in cousin matching) of O'Neill of Tyrone, O'Donnells of Tyrconnell and later Donegal, also descended from (married to) O'Neills of Tyrone, MacLeans and MacDonalds of Argyll, Armstrong/Elliot of Gilknockie - Scottish Borders and Northern Ireland. In particular an Irish McCabe descended from O'Neill and O'Donnell from Donegal and Tyrone apparently... they show up distantly same as that cluster from SW and SW Ireland.

4) I have also been able to connect via my and my Uncle's/Mom's results - our connection to the Irish Rebel family of the Flemings from the Swan and county Laois... via cousin clustering and this ancestry for that shared cousin: Fleming, Whelan, Brennan, Green, O'Dwyer, Murray, The Swan and Wolfhill Ballyadams (Laois --Kilkenny) and the Fleming's involvement in the Easter Rising of 1916!!

Do you have any Scottish matches/ancestry? I have several interests that are tied to Highland and Hebrides matches... it appears very likely that I have Highland Jacobite matches from both side - MacDonald of Barra and allied families (ended up over in PEI and Cape Breton) on Mom's and some matches that Mom and Uncle do not have - so more likely to be on my father's Scots-Irish side from Pennsylvania - Frasers and allied families from Dores, Inverness and Reef, Isle of Lewis and MacDonalds of Morar (one cousin has the y-dna group of Clan Ranald - which does match up for Morar as they were Clan Ranald).

I have even more matches from the Clare, Tipperary, Limerick areas as there is more Irish on Mom's side I have yet to link clusters to... or matches that require more research such as a distant cousin of Mom's/Uncle's who has O'Dwyer ancestry and all his family comes from a few miles near Moyglassmore in West Clare - I am pretty sure I've connected the Philip O'Dwyer at Moyglassmore with the one in Killaloe (same family) as the Killaloe Philip sent children to be baptized in Miltown Malbay in West Clare. Our connection is surely O'Dwyer and I e-mailed him to discuss, but have yet to hear back from him. Sometimes I think it goes into the spam folder!

Cheers
Charlie "Cathal dubh"

and P.S. Óró, sé do bheatha bhaile
óró, sé do bheatha bhaile
óró, sé do bheatha bhaile
Anois ar theacht an tsamhraidh.

I'm slowly memorizing the words ;-).

curiousII
03-17-2020, 03:29 AM
I have a new haplogroup, thought I'd talk about it here: Now I've gotten downstream from Z2573 to FT2530000, just noticed it on Family Tree and apparently so new no one has talked about it much anywhere.

Anything important here? Big breakthrough or anything?

edit: Guess not, didn’t think so. Still me.

Webb
03-18-2020, 01:23 PM
I have a new haplogroup, thought I'd talk about it here: Now I've gotten downstream from Z2573 to FT2530000, just noticed it on Family Tree and apparently so new no one has talked about it much anywhere.

Anything important here? Big breakthrough or anything?

edit: Guess not, didn’t think so. Still me.

Because FT2530000 is named by Family Tree, this means it is very new and possibly a mutation that is specific to your family/cluster. I did a google search on it and nothing comes ups. It is also possible it is a Family Tree designation for an snp that is actually already named.

REWM
03-18-2020, 04:16 PM
Because FT2530000 is named by Family Tree, this means it is very new and possibly a mutation that is specific to your family/cluster. I did a google search on it and nothing comes ups. It is also possible it is a Family Tree designation for an snp that is actually already named.

SNP Position (hg38) Mutation
FT253000 6601681 T to TC

razyn
03-18-2020, 10:41 PM
SNP Position (hg38) Mutation
FT253000 6601681 T to TC

Is it FT253000, or FT2530000? I thought the version with three zeroes (under the avatar) was just character-limitation by the box one types it into.

Baraona
03-18-2020, 10:55 PM
Mine changed last week from ph1503 to FT11440. The curious thing is, FT11440 existed before, but I was recalificated down there after a manual review.

REWM
03-18-2020, 11:44 PM
Is it FT253000, or FT2530000? I thought the version with three zeroes (under the avatar) was just character-limitation by the box one types it into.

It's FT253000. I think curiousII added a extra 0.
36869

curiousII
03-19-2020, 12:11 AM
It's FT253000. I think curiousII added a extra 0.
36869

Guess I did that, thanks for pointing it out. I emailed YSEQ, figured I'd get right on one of their SNP tests. I didn't see it on their list of available products, I just checked and I got the numbering right. Haven't gotten anything back from them yet.

Speaking of mispeaking haplogroup names/numbering, I doubt that I would have been able deal with the old "R1b1a2..." ad infinitum system. Is this new method getting unwieldy, or is it just me?

Webb
03-19-2020, 01:28 PM
I found it on Ytree. It is in block FGC32094. It is listed as REWM reported, 6601681 T to TC. Everyone in this block is a Morris.

REWM
03-19-2020, 02:25 PM
I found it on Ytree. It is in block FGC32094. It is listed as REWM reported, 6601681 T to TC. Everyone in this block is a Morris.

The problem with that is they are T not TC.
36872

REWM
03-19-2020, 03:44 PM
curiousII I can see you match with two of the 1k men in YFull. Here is one of them.

36873

curiousII
03-19-2020, 06:55 PM
curiousII I can see you match with two of the 1k men in YFull. Here is one of them.

36873

Thanks, I'll let the Z2573 admin handle all that. I dropped out of all the groups on YFull except Z2573.

edit: I just did the "Wish a SNP" on YSEQ for $1. Interesting to see how long it takes to get to that company.

REWM
03-20-2020, 03:43 PM
I just did the "Wish a SNP" on YSEQ for $1. Interesting to see how long it takes to get that company.

Since there seems to be conflicting results. I did the "Wish a SNP" a few days ago. Still waiting back from them if it is able to be tested by Sanger sequencing.
You already have results for it on YFull. Input 6601681 into the Browse raw data feature.

curiousII
03-20-2020, 04:43 PM
Since there seems to be conflicting results. I did the "Wish a SNP" a few days ago. Still waiting back from them if it is able to be tested by Sanger sequencing.
You already have results for it on YFull. Input 6601681 into the Browse raw data feature.

Thanks, you’ve been a lot of help.

curiousII
03-24-2020, 01:14 PM
I got this from YSEQ. It means there’s no SNP test for my haplogroup?


FT253000 is 98.6% similar to chromosome X (89267063..89268061). It isn't recommended for phylogeny. We're sorry.

curiousII
03-24-2020, 07:05 PM
I got this from YSEQ. It means there’s no SNP test for my haplogroup?


FT253000 is 98.6% similar to chromosome X (89267063..89268061). It isn't recommended for phylogeny. We're sorry.

OK, this is ominous, no one's tried to answer this one yet. So my new haplogroup is near identical to the sex chromosome? It's nearly the same as the X chromosome that Family Tree uses for X matching? My haplogroup is my sex?

No, I'm firm in my belief on all that, no doubts here. People have their haplogroups change when there's a new SNP showing up somewhere. So now my X chromosome will change when there's something else downstream from Z2573?

What did YSEQ just call me? Seriously, I'm fine. I was


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss_BmTGv43M

edit: I’m 98.6, I’m not feverish. YSEQ good doctor!

A.D.
05-06-2020, 05:56 PM
Bollox79 I see you've got a lot of Armstrong's you might want to check Lavery's as a lot of lavery's changed their name to Armstrong espescially in the Tyrone Fermanagh area. Also McCabe is A gallowglass clan. You have an ancient worrior history.
Ard mor ort

R.Rocca
05-06-2020, 06:41 PM
OK, this is ominous, no one's tried to answer this one yet. So my new haplogroup is near identical to the sex chromosome? It's nearly the same as the X chromosome that Family Tree uses for X matching? My haplogroup is my sex?

No, I'm firm in my belief on all that, no doubts here. People have their haplogroups change when there's a new SNP showing up somewhere. So now my X chromosome will change when there's something else downstream from Z2573?

What did YSEQ just call me? Seriously, I'm fine. I was

edit: I’m 98.6, I’m not feverish. YSEQ good doctor!

YSEQ uses a technique called PCR to detect individual SNPs. They first start by using a primer, but if there are locations in different chromosomes that are similar to the one the primer is targeting, they have no way of detecting which chromosome produces a positive result. With whole genome sequencing, this is not a problem.

Webb
06-30-2020, 01:01 PM
I just noticed these samples posted by Kolgeh:

AITI_98 Germany_EBA_Lech R1b1a1b1a1a2 or R1b1a1b1a1a2a5a
AITI_50 Germany_EBA_Lech R1b1a1b1a1a2a7 or R1b1a1b1a1a

DA111.SG Czech_HallstattBylany.SG R1b1a1b1a1a2a7 or R1b1a1b1a1a2b1

I5441 England_C_EBA R1b1a1b1a1a2a7

These are some of the 2500 samples he posted here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples

Webb
07-01-2020, 02:24 PM
I just noticed these samples posted by Kolgeh:

AITI_98 Germany_EBA_Lech R1b1a1b1a1a2 or R1b1a1b1a1a2a5a
AITI_50 Germany_EBA_Lech R1b1a1b1a1a2a7 or R1b1a1b1a1a

DA111.SG Czech_HallstattBylany.SG R1b1a1b1a1a2a7 or R1b1a1b1a1a2b1

I5441 England_C_EBA R1b1a1b1a1a2a7

These are some of the 2500 samples he posted here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples

Bump so it doesn’t get lost.

razyn
07-01-2020, 07:09 PM
Bump so it doesn’t get lost.

What might be more helpful would be translating the gobbledygook into readable SNP names. I presume they have something to do with DF27, but I don't want to spend any more of my life looking up the right version of ISOGG, to figure them out.

I know, grumpy. It's been proven.

Webb
07-01-2020, 08:44 PM
I just noticed these samples posted by Kolgeh:

AITI_98 Germany_EBA_Lech R1b1a1b1a1a2/P312 or R1b1a1b1a1a2a5a/DF27>Z229
AITI_50 Germany_EBA_Lech R1b1a1b1a1a2a7/DF27>Z2559/DF83 or R1b1a1b1a1a/L151

DA111.SG Czech_HallstattBylany.SG R1b1a1b1a1a2a7/DF27>Z2559/DF83 or R1b1a1b1a1a2b1/U152>L2

I5441 England_C_EBA R1b1a1b1a1a2a7/ DF27>z2559/DF83

These are some of the 2500 samples he posted here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ncient-samples

Webb
07-01-2020, 08:45 PM
What might be more helpful would be translating the gobbledygook into readable SNP names. I presume they have something to do with DF27, but I don't want to spend any more of my life looking up the right version of ISOGG, to figure them out.

I know, grumpy. It's been proven.

I went back and added the short hand nomenclature. Just to reduce the grumpiness.

curiousII
10-05-2020, 06:47 PM
So, since no one has posted on this thread for a couple of months, does that mean that it's been decided where DF27 began?

Where was that, anyway?

curiousII
10-05-2020, 11:20 PM
Reason for my asking again, this from R1b Project on Family Tree:

"L21 is the ipso de facto Scots Irish gene that all the americans want to be descendants from"

On that website you'll see many y-DNA haplogroup projects have a lot of money in their general funds, U106 is always plush with funding for tests. At the moment DF27 has a fair amount, usually it's far less.

ISOGG doesn't list my Z2573 at the moment much less my current FT253000. People speak of Family Tree not including DF27 in its BIg Y. I tested years ago, I'm still not on ISOGG?

DF27, found over eight years ago: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041634

Still not on the Big Y?

edit: This was from a test I took with Living DNA: y-DNA haplogroup R-L21>DF23, mtDNA H11.

I've taken my Big Y 500 and 700 and a WGS with YSEQ, they all say DF27>Z2573. But YSEQ is owned by ex-Family Tree employees. Do these companies really come up with different haplogroups? How could that be, that's not even similar to different chips or algorithms for autosomal results.

JoeyP37
10-05-2020, 11:41 PM
I figure DF27 originated in the middle Rhine valley, maybe around Heidelberg or Karlsruhe. I can't really say I've ever wanted to be L21, I had wanted to be I1, because it is a survivor, heavily bottlenecked; I am, however, another bottlenecked clade, M458, if not as long as the M253 bottleneck, so I am descended from another group of lucky survivors.

Webb
10-05-2020, 11:54 PM
The oldest DF27 aDNA is 2500 B.C., Quedlinburg, Germany.

curiousII
10-06-2020, 12:33 AM
I figure DF27 originated in the middle Rhine valley, maybe around Heidelberg or Karlsruhe. I can't really say I've ever wanted to be L21, I had wanted to be I1, because it is a survivor, heavily bottlenecked; I am, however, another bottlenecked clade, M458, if not as long as the M253 bottleneck, so I am descended from another group of lucky survivors.

You're right, I agree. Our haplogroups are static, they don't change other than by the standard mutations from what I read. When these companies come out with new algorithms for their autsomal results you'll read a lot of shocked and dismayed reactions on the various sites, it's all a surprise once you've gotten used to the results from your first test.

But that's from adding and modifying populations, and that's not commensurate with haplogroup testing. I'm still at odds with how Family Tree and Living DNA came up with such divergent results. I could try to find another company to test with but that's just that much more money to throw around and, probably, be just as confused afterwards as I was before., as I am now.

It's not "wanting to be," it's what we are. If that's what we are, that's what we are. No idea what the argument is with haplogroups nor why ISOGG wouldn't recognize my Z2573.

razyn
10-06-2020, 12:33 AM
The oldest DF27 aDNA is 2500 B.C., Quedlinburg, Germany.

Which is, by the way, in the watershed of the Elbe river. Not "the Rhine" (which large watershed seems often to get the credit, or blame, for anything that happened in parts of continental Europe that now speak a Germanic language). And it's way downhill from the Alps. Don't believe everything you read, not even if I wrote it.

Webb
10-06-2020, 01:52 AM
Which is, by the way, in the watershed of the Elbe river. Not "the Rhine" (which large watershed seems often to get the credit, or blame, for anything that happened in parts of continental Europe that now speak a Germanic language). And it's way downhill from the Alps. Don't believe everything you read, not even if I wrote it.

This is why I wonder what extent was P312’s maximal spread. I still favor a more northern route through Ukraine, to Poland, through North Eastern Germany to the North Sea on the Eastern side of Denmark. I think the idea of the Danube and the Rhine as the corridor for P312 is not as valid as it once was. Quedlinburg is not where I would have thought we would find P312 of any sort, particularly DF27, but there he was. Very deep into Germany.

rms2
10-06-2020, 02:15 AM
I think the answers will come when we get enough Single Grave Corded Ware samples. That's got to be it rather than Yamnaya.

ArmandoR1b
10-06-2020, 02:39 AM
The oldest DF27 aDNA is 2500 B.C., Quedlinburg, Germany.

2500 B.C was the upper limit listed in one of the studies it was listed in. Olalde et al. 2018 listed it as 2431–2150 calBCE. So it's age is more likely somewhere in the middle of that range.

Webb
10-06-2020, 02:49 AM
2500 B.C was the upper limit listed in one of the studies it was listed in. Olalde et al. 2018 listed it as 2431–2150 calBCE. So it's age is more likely somewhere in the middle of that range.

Ok. It’s still the oldest sample, so far.

ArmandoR1b
10-06-2020, 03:31 AM
Interestingly EHU002 from El Hundido, Monasterio de Rodilla, Burgos, Castilla y León dated to 2562–2306 cal BCE is positive for P312 but does not have a read for DF27 or Z195 meaning we have no idea if it is negative or positive for DF27 or Z195. With all of the DF27 found in Bronze Age Iberia there is no reason to think this specimen would be negative for DF27 if it had a read on DF27.

I am not saying Iberia is where DF27 originated. I am saying that the DNA of ancient specimens is too damaged get a detailed record of specific SNPs when Steppe related people with L52 and L151 subclades entered western Europe.

ArmandoR1b
10-06-2020, 03:42 AM
I think the answers will come when we get enough Single Grave Corded Ware samples. That's got to be it rather than Yamnaya.

I think you have stated it before, but it probably would be a good idea for you to say it again - How do you think Single Grave Corded Ware got it's L51?

curiousII
10-06-2020, 04:06 AM
Iberia or Quedlinberg, fine. But who were those people? I've had years of European history now; I thought it was Celtic, nope, got the boot there. Bell Beaker is said to be a phenomenon between different peoples now rather than a defining pottery style of a single culture, so being Bell Beaker isn't anything definitive though it would be about the right age (unlike Celtic, which I learned the hard way).

Was there bell-shaped jugs found with whichever DF27 fossil the learneds involved consider the first? Who else was in Europe 4,000 years ago? Corded Ware or someone?

Someone has to have come up with a name for Mr. DF27 the First by now, it's really odd that they haven't.

rms2
10-06-2020, 10:48 AM
I think you have stated it before, but it probably would be a good idea for you to say it again - How do you think Single Grave Corded Ware got it's L51?

I think L51 was already in the Eneolithic steppe amalgam that eventually became Corded Ware.

e63219
10-09-2020, 07:14 AM
TESTS COMPLETED RUN
Y-DNA37 6/21/2007 206
DeepSNP-R1b 08/102007 211
DeepSNP-R1b1c U Series 03/06/2008 246
Deep Clade Extended b 03/18/2009 300
R1b-DF27 05/22/2012 463
R1b-DF27 SNP Pack 12/15/2015 648
Big Y-500 10/12/2016 698
Big Y-700 08/30/2019 961

I was in the first batch that TK tested in 2012, I recall 6 tests with 3 identified as DF27. In the early days I followed DNA developments on the DNA Forum web information and discussion board, so I was made aware the anything prefixed with DF is associated with their individual research discoveries.
My FT list of mutations:
R-M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>FGC78762>ZZ19_1>Z31644>BY20186, matching 4 with a terminal SNP at this level. Then downstream 45 mutations to my one match with our present terminal SNP of BY20168 – TMRCA 4500 ybp - and then another 11 private variables to be refined with any future match. Also, downstream from us is another 9 from England and the United States.
TMRCA for BY20186 is 3700 ybp. After an interpretation by two of the above - finally! - at YFull I have moved from P312 to BY20186 under DF27. I just now have these 2 matches on YFull at BY20186, a Russian close to Moscow and a Scot around Edinburgh. On FT I have 3; a German and 2 unknown origins.
So, looking at the progression of my mutations it appears to me – Russian > German > Scottish and me English in origin. A gradual movement from East to West over thousands of years. The Yamnaya theory still seems quite relevant to me as the origin of DF27.

Baraona
10-11-2020, 05:08 AM
TESTS COMPLETED RUN
Y-DNA37 6/21/2007 206
DeepSNP-R1b 08/102007 211
DeepSNP-R1b1c U Series 03/06/2008 246
Deep Clade Extended b 03/18/2009 300
R1b-DF27 05/22/2012 463
R1b-DF27 SNP Pack 12/15/2015 648
Big Y-500 10/12/2016 698
Big Y-700 08/30/2019 961

I was in the first batch that TK tested in 2012, I recall 6 tests with 3 identified as DF27. In the early days I followed DNA developments on the DNA Forum web information and discussion board, so I was made aware the anything prefixed with DF is associated with their individual research discoveries.
My FT list of mutations:
R-M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12_1>FGC78762>ZZ19_1>Z31644>BY20186, matching 4 with a terminal SNP at this level. Then downstream 45 mutations to my one match with our present terminal SNP of BY20168 – TMRCA 4500 ybp - and then another 11 private variables to be refined with any future match. Also, downstream from us is another 9 from England and the United States.
TMRCA for BY20186 is 3700 ybp. After an interpretation by two of the above - finally! - at YFull I have moved from P312 to BY20186 under DF27. I just now have these 2 matches on YFull at BY20186, a Russian close to Moscow and a Scot around Edinburgh. On FT I have 3; a German and 2 unknown origins.
So, looking at the progression of my mutations it appears to me – Russian > German > Scottish and me English in origin. A gradual movement from East to West over thousands of years. The Yamnaya theory still seems quite relevant to me as the origin of DF27.

Greetings. Our lines part under Z31644, BY20186 on your side and his brother line FGC78763 on my side. Always nice find a far-cousin. Cheers!

Ric
10-13-2020, 02:18 PM
it appears to me – Russian > German > Scottish and me English in origin. A gradual movement from East to West over thousands of years. The Yamnaya theory still seems quite relevant to me as the origin of DF27.

Yes. It is the most obvious path of migration. When they reached the Northern French/Belgium coastline, they had the cliffs of Dover in sight, it is like an invitation to cross the channel, even with less than optimal floatation device like rafts.
Reaching the British isles by sailing directly from Iberia, or even from Britany, seems so much more risky, i don't say it's impossible but you need good boat, sail, rudder, rope, keel, and some navigation technology. That technology should have left traces. Plus, to do that implies that you KNEW that the British isles where already there.

Helves
10-13-2020, 04:34 PM
I wonder if the Dutch Single Grave is ground zero for all the major P312 clades aswell as U106.

TigerMW
10-13-2020, 04:50 PM
Reason for my asking again, this from R1b Project on Family Tree:

"L21 is the ipso de facto Scots Irish gene that all the americans want to be descendants from"


I am the R1b All Subclades Project administrator. I'm also the R-L21 Project Administrator. I would never, never say such a thing. First of all L21 is NOT the Scots Irish gene. L21 preceded those people by a couple of thousand years.
Second, I would never assume all Americans want to be descendants from anything.

I wrote the web site background pages. I don't see this anywhere.


Who are you quoting?

TigerMW
10-13-2020, 04:59 PM
I wonder if the Dutch Single Grave is ground zero for all the major P312 clades aswell as U106.
I think so. Look at the subclades immediately downstream of the R-L151 MRCA. There are only one or two SNPs in the phylogenetic equivalent block.

R-L151,L11,YSC0000191
P312,CTS12684
U106
S1194
A8053,FGC51303

They are closely related. P312 is closely related to U106. The P312 people expanded greatly in a new and merged culture that we call the Steppe Bell Beakers. To me it is much more likely they had a clan worth of allies (P312+ people) with a head of steam in place in order to dominate this new Steppe Bell Beaker group. It's hard for a team of one to dominate a group. There must have been allies. Since Steppe Bell Beaker is so heavily P312+, the P312 clan must have been been built prior to it leaving Single Grave and emerging in the new Steppe Bell Beaker group.

rms2
10-13-2020, 05:00 PM
I wanted to be a Hun.

Webb
10-13-2020, 05:08 PM
I am the R1b All Subclades Project administrator. I'm also the R-L21 Project Administrator. I would never, never say such a thing. First of all L21 is NOT the Scots Irish gene. L21 preceded those people by a couple of thousand years.
Second, I would never assume all Americans want to be descendants from anything.

I wrote the web site background pages. I don't see this anywhere.


Who are you quoting?

I did a google check and this quote has been stated in the activity feed on the ZZ10 and Misc. Sublcades Project as well as the Rutledge/Routledge Project Activity feed, by two different people, but the same quote. So the quote came from somewhere. I recall many, many years ago when DF27 was first offered for testing, the L21 guys and U152 guys quickly scarfed up the "Celtic" claim. Insular Celtic for L21 and Alpine Celtic for U152, but DF27 was Iberian. I know you remember this. It seems that there are still quite a few people who see/read these statements/beliefs from some of the early forum archives and believe it, still.

rms2
10-13-2020, 05:16 PM
I see a correlation between the Celts and P312 in general, but, honestly, the Celts were so late in time that their y-chromosome profile was pretty diverse. Even Beaker in the Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age included more than one P312 subclade, some Z2103, and even some I2a and G2a.

TigerMW
10-13-2020, 10:35 PM
I did a google check and this quote has been stated in the activity feed on the ZZ10 and Misc. Sublcades Project as well as the Rutledge/Routledge Project Activity feed, by two different people, but the same quote. So the quote came from somewhere. I recall many, many years ago when DF27 was first offered for testing, the L21 guys and U152 guys quickly scarfed up the "Celtic" claim. Insular Celtic for L21 and Alpine Celtic for U152, but DF27 was Iberian. I know you remember this. It seems that there are still quite a few people who see/read these statements/beliefs from some of the early forum archives and believe it, still.

That sounds like more Eupedia terminology.

I just don't want the quote - "L21 is the ipso de facto Scots Irish gene that all the americans want to be descendants from" - to in any way to be associated with a project I run or heavily support.

Anybody can say pretty much anything in a forum but they may be just wild speculators. I don't think there is much credibility in the statement.

Just from the git-go, there are probably Welsh/Brit/Breton/Scandinavian people who wouldn't consider it Scots or Irish. To assume Americans want to descend from this means little. I'm quite happy with my English, Czech and German heritages.

I'm not trying to pick on you but a little sensitive. I once posted an article on King Arthur but did not claim I was anyway descended from him nor that he even existed. I do have an old document that claims we are but it is nonsensical. Years later I see an author quote me as saying R-L513 people had the "King Arthur" gene.

curiousII
10-14-2020, 08:50 PM
I am the R1b All Subclades Project administrator. I'm also the R-L21 Project Administrator. I would never, never say such a thing. First of all L21 is NOT the Scots Irish gene. L21 preceded those people by a couple of thousand years.
Second, I would never assume all Americans want to be descendants from anything.

I wrote the web site background pages. I don't see this anywhere.


Who are you quoting?

Posted October 3 @ 12:52pm, first reply under the original post at October 3 @ 9:32am. No need to name the specific names, I'm sure you can find them as they're still there. Since this has caught some attention I'd have thought they'd be deleted by now, but I just found them again.

More from that post:

This falls under R1b also L21, DF13 and then you go fgc11134 so definitley join https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-fgc11134/about/background and L21 projects. L21 is the ipso de facto Scots Irish gene that all the americans want to be descendants from. Celtic in the revivalist sense is actually a meme introduced by the Greeks but also the Romans to separate the ancient Britons from their Celtic cousins in Gaul and eslewhere on the mainland of Europe.

I'm probably in trouble again for mentioning this as most my posts get deleted on that website, I doubt I'll ever know who the original DF27 was.

Happy about the Olalde paper and all that, but where I live quite a bit of science doesn't make it to the classroom due to sensitive issues like racism, colonialism, or some other form of supposed bigotry. Here Spanish speaking people are encouraged to enroll in colleges and much mention has been made about all the Spanish-surnamed alumni from the state universities, about all the "minority" students who are matriculating at such a rapid rate.

I see you posted here recently, Ric. Nice; I'm taking an archaelogy class and am kind of suprised that the Native American question isn't really being addressed during these days of strife. Native Americans are just the opposite of that: they're no more native here in the New World than the Europeans, be the Europeans Quedlinburg-ian or Iberian.

If Spanish speakers are forcing their discoveries into the class curriculum over those made by others (yes, Quedlinburg and Iberia are fine example) then we just don't get the right results from our tests with these companies. Living DNA giving me their opinion which is so far off from Family Tree, the poster on the R1b project making his statement that L21 is 'way cool in the States who needs DF27, or who knows how many other examples there may be is exactly that: an example.

This isn't science now, this is propaganda. I'll stop, but I've thrown a lot of money at these companies and I still don't know where I am. I do know I'm not blindly believing everything they teach in the colleges here any longer as it's all gotten skewed. Really I'm not exaggerating.

TigerMW
10-14-2020, 09:23 PM
Posted October 3 @ 12:52pm, first reply under the original post at October 3 @ 9:32am. No need to name the specific names, I'm sure you can find them as they're still there. Since this has caught some attention I'd have thought they'd be deleted by now, but I just found them again.

More from that post:

This falls under R1b also L21, DF13 and then you go fgc11134 so definitley join https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-fgc11134/about/background and L21 projects. L21 is the ipso de facto Scots Irish gene that all the americans want to be descendants from. Celtic in the revivalist sense is actually a meme introduced by the Greeks but also the Romans to separate the ancient Britons from their Celtic cousins in Gaul and eslewhere on the mainland of Europe.

I'm probably in trouble again for mentioning this as most my posts get deleted on that website, I doubt I'll ever know who the original DF27 was.

Happy about the Olalde paper and all that, but where I live quite a bit of science doesn't make it to the classroom due to sensitive issues like racism, colonialism, or some other form of supposed bigotry. Here Spanish speaking people are encouraged to enroll in colleges and much mention has been made about all the Spanish-surnamed alumni from the state universities, about all the "minority" students who are matriculating at such a rapid rate.

I see you posted here recently, Ric. Nice; I'm taking an archaelogy class and am kind of suprised that the Native American question isn't really being addressed during these days of strife. Native Americans are just the opposite of that: they're no more native here in the New World than the Europeans, be the Europeans Quendlinburg-ian or Iberian.

If Spanish speakers are forcing their discoveries into the class curriculum over those made by others (yes, Quedlinburg and Iberia are fine example) then we just don't get the right results from our tests with these companies. Living DNA giving me their opinion which is so far off from Family Tree, the poster on the R1b project making his statement that L21 is 'way cool in the States who needs DF27, or who knows how many other examples there may be is exactly that: an example.

This isn't science now, this is propaganda. I'll stop, but I've thrown a lot of money at these companies and I still don't know where I am. I do know I'm not blindly believing everything they teach in the colleges here any longer as it's all gotten skewed. Really I'm not exaggerating.

This poster in no way reflects my views or the project. I don’t wish to comment on individuals negatively without them having a chance to defend themselves. I try to allow freedom of expression as long as it is on topic, not obscene, not racist or otherwise outside stated forum rules.

That being said, I rely on posters to be viligant. If you have a post you think is a violation please report it.

One of the problems on FTDNA Activity Feeds is you can’t permanently ban posters. They can just rejoin the project if removed.

curiousII
10-14-2020, 09:47 PM
This poster in no way reflects my views or the project. I don’t wish to comment on individuals negatively without them having a chance to defend themselves. I try to allow freedom of expression as long as it is on topic, not obscene, not racist or otherwise outside stated forum rules.

That being said, I rely on posters to be viligant. If you have a post you think is a violation please report it.

One of the problems on FTDNA Activity Feeds is you can’t permanently ban posters. They can just rejoin the project if removed.

You're right, thank you.

So, DF27and it's Origins put to music, basically...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyhrYis509A

"What does the Fox Say?"

Quedinburg! Quedlinburg!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jofNR_WkoCE

So fitting for some reason...

curiousII
10-16-2020, 02:49 AM
duplicate

razyn
10-16-2020, 12:33 PM
I want to dissociate myself from the comments by curiousII in the past eleven days (I think), that seem to me not very subtly based on a low opinion of Mexican Americans in his home area. In any case, those comments have little or nothing to do with the actual topic of this thread.

I don't believe DF27 was born in Iberia, nor for that matter even very near Quedlinburg. But that is neither the product, nor the cause, of any culturally skewed opinion I might have of ethnic groups -- be they Asian, European, African or "American," however one perceives that term. Such opinions are better kept out of discussions of scientific fact. For the record, I have an originally Mexican daughter-in-law (from Monterrey), our son loves her, and so do my wife and I.

curiousII
10-16-2020, 12:42 PM
I want to dissociate myself from the comments by curiousII in the past eleven days (I think), that seem to me not very subtly based on a low opinion of Mexican Americans in his home area. In any case, those comments have little or nothing to do with the actual topic of this thread.

I don't believe DF27 was born in Iberia, nor for that matter even very near Quedlinburg. But that is neither the product, nor the cause, of any culturally skewed opinion I might have of ethnic groups -- be they Asian, European, African or "American," however one perceives that term. Such opinions are better kept out of discussions of scientific fact. For the record, I have an originally Mexican daughter-in-law (from Monterrey), our son loves her, and so do my wife and I.

Do that, “proto-Celtic” fellow. This is an evolving science but I believe the people involved should have known that proto-Celtic was a language, not a race.

Insinuate all you want, I’m just stating facts not suppositions. I don’t speak Spanish and if you’re not in California you might not understand the direction the state’s politics and education have taken.

Mexicans aren’t the only Spanish speaking people. I have never spoken Spanish or Celtic. Thanks for the help and just ignore my posts if you don’t like them; no need to make a proto-spectacle of yourself.

Barraman
12-22-2020, 03:46 AM
34788

There are very few Scandinavian kits in the L165 group. They are actually just as many French kits. What are that chances that two Viking men who haven’t been related since 818BC fathered this large number of Scottish clans? How many unbiased parties would look at my diagram, then look at the kits in the L165 project and come to the conclusion that L165 is Scandinavian? The same assumptions are made when pushing that DF27 originated in Iberia. I don’t know where DF27 originated to be honest. I suspect somewhere closer to middle Europe, using subclade age and distribution, relationships with other P312 clades. I can also post some diagrams of other DF27 clades that seem to be very specific to Ireland and Scotland as well.

About a year ago I pointed out to an L165 group admin that there were as many French (Rouquier, Arsenault) & English surnames in the group as Scandinavian surnames. He stated that the reason L165 was assumed to be Scandinavian early on was that early testers had Scandinavian surnames: Olafsson, Hammer, Rasmussen. Of course, that fit in nicely with the Norse-Gael history of the Outer Hebrides. One of the dangers of drawing a conclusion prematurely based on a tiny sample size is that those early conclusions linger even as evidence mounts against them.

I suspect that the Iberian origin theory for DF27 is related to genetic links between Basques & Insular Celts or even the legend of the Milesians (sea-faring Gaels from Iberia who allegedly settled Ireland).

Using heat maps of modern populations to determine where a SNP originated seems nuts to me. A large number of people in the U.S. have the L21 SNP but that doesn't mean that their ancestors were the original inhabitants of the U.S. Likewise, a large number of people in modern-day Iberia with DF27 wouldn't prove an Iberian origin of DF27.

Webb
12-22-2020, 07:29 PM
About a year ago I pointed out to an L165 group admin that there were as many French (Rouquier, Arsenault) & English surnames in the group as Scandinavian surnames. He stated that the reason L165 was assumed to be Scandinavian early on was that early testers had Scandinavian surnames: Olafsson, Hammer, Rasmussen. Of course, that fit in nicely with the Norse-Gael history of the Outer Hebrides. One of the dangers of drawing a conclusion prematurely based on a tiny sample size is that those early conclusions linger even as evidence mounts against them.

I suspect that the Iberian origin theory for DF27 is related to genetic links between Basques & Insular Celts or even the legend of the Milesians (sea-faring Gaels from Iberia who allegedly settled Ireland).

Using heat maps of modern populations to determine where a SNP originated seems nuts to me. A large number of people in the U.S. have the L21 SNP but that doesn't mean that their ancestors were the original inhabitants of the U.S. Likewise, a large number of people in modern-day Iberia with DF27 wouldn't prove an Iberian origin of DF27.

Going off the cusp, the facts are that of the three snp's just below L165, two of them, BY456, 2294B.C., and BY129, 818B.C. both are predominately Scottish, particularly the Scottish Isles. Both contain a few French samples, but only one has Scandinavian samples. There is also an unrelated DF27 cluster that is very particular to Douglas and Sutherland. It was assumed that both clans were descendants of Freskyn de Moravia, and were relatively young, but after several years of full genome testing both Yfull and Ytree have FGC2307, which is the Douglas cluster and sibling of the Sutherland cluster dated to 426B.C., so based on this the two clusters haven't shared a common ancestor since around 426B.C. The third piece of evidence is DF27>Z42772. This snp is the great, great grandfather snp of the O'Dwyer/ Ryan group and the Clanaboy O'Neill group. Z42772 is dated to around 1700B.C., on the one end is O'Dwyer, Ryan, Foley, Kennedy, Keogh/Cahoo, Condra, Carew, Sheehy, Gorman. These surnames are all associated with clan descendants of Bresal Breac, in fact in the Underhill study P312* was found up to 24% in Southern Ireland, U152 was only around 7%. I think that it is more likely that L165 in Scotland is a Pictish remnant, and I am thinking that there must have been a DF27 wave into the British Isles sometime after L21 but maybe before U152, or around the end of the Bronze Age with the coming of the Urnfield Culture through the Hallstatt. It would explain the few DF27 clusters that seem to very particular to the British Isles. The other possibility is DF27 arrived either just before L21 or at the same time but had fewer numbers and never achieved the success that L21 saw.

Webb
01-05-2021, 03:24 PM
As a follow up to my previous post, I came across this link posted in another thread by pmokeefe.

https://www.surnamedna.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/DNA-vs-Irish-Annals-2017.web_.pdf

It is not a scientific paper, but the author does a pretty good job recognizing two of the largest DF27 clusters in Ireland. He even makes the observation that in the O'Neill Surname Project, 30% of the total kits are the Southern O'Neill cluster while M222 only comprises 19% of the total kits. Most of the paper is about L21, but the two mentions of DF27 are worth reading it.

MitchellSince1893
01-05-2021, 05:15 PM
Off topic, but 7% U152 is roughly 3 times the U152 average for all of Ireland. An old discussion about U152 in Ireland here
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10219-U152-Distribution-in-Ireland

“Back to your regularly scheduled” DF27 discussion.

alejandromb92
01-05-2021, 06:13 PM
Off topic, but 7% U152 is roughly 3 times the U152 average for all of Ireland. An old discussion about U152 in Ireland here
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10219-U152-Distribution-in-Ireland

“Back to your regularly scheduled” DF27 discussion.

There isn't much U152 in Ireland, but it seems to be notable in the South english coast, and every one of them L2+

alejandromb92
01-05-2021, 06:16 PM
Also, who said that DF27 originated in Iberia? That's complete nonsense.

Webb
01-05-2021, 06:17 PM
Off topic, but 7% U152 is roughly 3 times the U152 average for all of Ireland. An old discussion about U152 in Ireland here
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10219-U152-Distribution-in-Ireland

“Back to your regularly scheduled” DF27 discussion.

You are correct. Using the Underhill and Myres study, U152 in Ireland is as follows:

East, North, Southwest: 0
South: 4.2%
West: 6.3%

I circled 6.3% in my notes thinking this was a total for Ireland, but wasn't, and I had convinced myself it was 7%, which it was not. Sorry.

Webb
01-05-2021, 07:47 PM
Also, who said that DF27 originated in Iberia? That's complete nonsense.

While I and most of the people on this forum, currently, agree with you, there are still are large number of people who adhere to the prior hypothesis of DF27 being formed in the Iberian Peninsula. This is compounded by the fact that there are a number of older scientific papers that claim the same thing. This is because many many years ago, before there was DF27, there was M153 which was labeled the Basque Marker and SRY2627 which is very dense around Catalonia. It wasn't until after these two discoveries that DF27 was an officially recognized SNP, which, once recognized and realized to be the parent of M153 and SRY2627, the DF27 originating in Iberia hypothesis really took hold. At the time, without hardly any aDna, one could only go by current concentration patterns and str variation calculations. There were a few of us DF27 guys who from the beginning kept trying to point out the anomalies of DF27 that might indicate it entered Iberia at a point in time that it just enjoyed a major expansion there, much like L21 in the British Isles, but it really wasn't until the last few years that most of us started looking very far east for the origin of P312 and children subclades that the DF27 originating in the Iberian Peninsula started to die down. Part of the problem with DF27 is that it is very Pan. With Pan, I mean of the three major subclades below P312, DF27 is much more Pan than U152 or L21, meaning it is found just about everywhere, though not in concentrations like in Iberia.

JoeyP37
01-05-2021, 07:54 PM
As a follow up to my previous post, I came across this link posted in another thread by pmokeefe.

https://www.surnamedna.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/DNA-vs-Irish-Annals-2017.web_.pdf

It is not a scientific paper, but the author does a pretty good job recognizing two of the largest DF27 clusters in Ireland. He even makes the observation that in the O'Neill Surname Project, 30% of the total kits are the Southern O'Neill cluster while M222 only comprises 19% of the total kits. Most of the paper is about L21, but the two mentions of DF27 are worth reading it.

I enjoyed the slides here, especially with the mtdna graph, as my mtdna is of Irish origin. Maternal line great-great-grandmother Helen Ryan Robishaw immigrated to New England around 1890; her father was a Tipperary Ryan, so most likely in the Breassal Breac DF27 cluster.

sheepslayer
01-05-2021, 08:00 PM
While we're discussing things like SRY2627 I figure this is a good opportunity for me to share this sketch I just finished of Z195:
42335

I would post this in a new thread like my ZZ12 sketches if it wasn't just one picture. I guess it's stil relevant though since it's half of DF27 :)

Each circle is the chief mutation defining a family containing at least two distinct branches. I changed colors for each basic sub-division of the Bronze Age in Europe following the Beakers in red. The YFull dates I put there should help.

alejandromb92
01-05-2021, 08:35 PM
While I and most of the people on this forum, currently, agree with you, there are still are large number of people who adhere to the prior hypothesis of DF27 being formed in the Iberian Peninsula. This is compounded by the fact that there are a number of older scientific papers that claim the same thing. This is because many many years ago, before there was DF27, there was M153 which was labeled the Basque Marker and SRY2627 which is very dense around Catalonia. It wasn't until after these two discoveries that DF27 was an officially recognized SNP, which, once recognized and realized to be the parent of M153 and SRY2627, the DF27 originating in Iberia hypothesis really took hold. At the time, without hardly any aDna, one could only go by current concentration patterns and str variation calculations. There were a few of us DF27 guys who from the beginning kept trying to point out the anomalies of DF27 that might indicate it entered Iberia at a point in time that it just enjoyed a major expansion there, much like L21 in the British Isles, but it really wasn't until the last few years that most of us started looking very far east for the origin of P312 and children subclades that the DF27 originating in the Iberian Peninsula started to die down. Part of the problem with DF27 is that it is very Pan. With Pan, I mean of the three major subclades below P312, DF27 is much more Pan than U152 or L21, meaning it is found just about everywhere, though not in concentrations like in Iberia.

Very interesting information that you gave there my friend. I always thought that the most Pan main R1b was U152, being it foundable in almost every corner of Europe, i always get very surprised of how big and expand is this clade. I think Iberia had an extreme lucky coincidence that the vast majority of the Bell Beaker and Urnfield folks were DF27, and that might be one of the main reasons of the extreme success of this clade here.

TigerMW
01-05-2021, 08:37 PM
As a follow up to my previous post, I came across this link posted in another thread by pmokeefe.

https://www.surnamedna.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/DNA-vs-Irish-Annals-2017.web_.pdf

It is not a scientific paper, but the author does a pretty good job recognizing two of the largest DF27 clusters in Ireland. He even makes the observation that in the O'Neill Surname Project, 30% of the total kits are the Southern O'Neill cluster while M222 only comprises 19% of the total kits. Most of the paper is about L21, but the two mentions of DF27 are worth reading it.

I like this analysis. I want to make a correction. On Slide 65 Larkin shows P312 as descending directly from M269. Instead it is brother to U106 under L51 / P311 / L151. I'm referenced but I don't recall any chart I ever made that showed that. Must have been misunderstood.

MitchellSince1893
01-05-2021, 08:44 PM
You are correct. Using the Underhill and Myres study, U152 in Ireland is as follows:

East, North, Southwest: 0
South: 4.2%
West: 6.3%

I circled 6.3% in my notes thinking this was a total for Ireland, but wasn't, and I had convinced myself it was 7%, which it was not. Sorry.

FYI: I wasn't posting to correct you. I was just saying 7% would be about 3 times the average for the whole of Ireland.

Here's what I got in Nov 2019 using FTDNA data. NOTE percentages are of R1b, not all y dna haplogroups. e.g. Z290 (almost all of it is L21), makes up 82.49% of all R1b in Ireland.
Republic of Ireland
M343 total 5704
Z290 82.49%
U106 7.56%
DF27 5.21%
U152 2.73%
DF19 0.54%
Z2103 0.46%
S1194 0.35%
PF7589 0.21%
FGC87429 0.21%
L238 0.11%
A8063 0.09%
PF7562 0.04%
Y18211 0.02%

N. Ireland
M343 total 594
Z290 69.02%
U106 13.64%
DF27 9.93%
U152 3.70%
DF19 1.52%
S1194 0.84%
FGC87429 0.84%
Z2103 0.34%
PF7589 0.17%

To convert this to percentage of all haplogroups, multiply the above numbers by ~83%
Which would be
DF27 4.3% of Rep. of Ireland
U152 2.3% of Rep. of Ireland

DF27 is 8.2% of N. Ireland
U152 3.1% of N. Ireland

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11364-FTDNA-R1b-Project-Maps&p=616398&viewfull=1#post616398

Webb
01-05-2021, 09:22 PM
FYI: I wasn't posting to correct you. I was just saying 7% would be about 3 times the average for the whole of Ireland.

Here's what I got in Nov 2019 using FTDNA data. NOTE percentages are of R1b, not all y dna haplogroups. e.g. Z290 (almost all of it is L21), makes up 82.49% of all R1b in Ireland.
Republic of Ireland
M343 total 5704
Z290 82.49%
U106 7.56%
DF27 5.21%
U152 2.73%
DF19 0.54%
Z2103 0.46%
S1194 0.35%
PF7589 0.21%
FGC87429 0.21%
L238 0.11%
A8063 0.09%
PF7562 0.04%
Y18211 0.02%

N. Ireland
M343 total 594
Z290 69.02%
U106 13.64%
DF27 9.93%
U152 3.70%
DF19 1.52%
S1194 0.84%
FGC87429 0.84%
Z2103 0.34%
PF7589 0.17%

To convert this to percentage of all haplogroups, multiply the above numbers by ~83%
Which would be
DF27 4.3% of Rep. of Ireland
U152 2.3% of Rep. of Ireland

DF27 is 8.2% of N. Ireland
U152 3.1% of N. Ireland

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11364-FTDNA-R1b-Project-Maps&p=616398&viewfull=1#post616398

This is what is from the Underhill, Myeres study:

Ireland East: 18.8%
Ireland North: 14.3%
Ireland South: 12.5%
Ireland Southwest: 22.7%
Ireland West: 0

This is for P312(xM529xM222xU152). Now this of course includes any other P312 clade that is not L21 or U152, but most of it is probably DF27 as it is Ireland. If it was Germany or France or Belgium, then you would have to factor in DF19, DF99, or maybe L238. Z290 would be the only other possibility and I think even it is rather small.

CillKenny
01-06-2021, 11:05 AM
They are impressive slides from Brad Larkin.

The one on Leinster needs updating- Lorcan Mac Faelan and Bran Mac Maelmorda share an ancestor born around 700AD. It is highly likely that they all fall under Z255 > Z16429 > BY519 > ZZ7 along with the large block of O'Byrnes. There are Kavanaghs in that ydna surname project under Z255 > Z16429 > BY519 > ZZ7 and also Murphys from Wexford (who are claimed to be descended from the grandfather of Diarmuid MacMurrough). In that project there is one individual who claims descent from Philemon Kavanaugh who was grandson of Domhnall Spaineach MacMurchadha Caomhanach Kavanaugh (d 1632) but they have not undertaken the Big Y test. If that person has a paper record they could begin to tie down the ydna signature of the Ui Cheinnselaig branch of Kings of Leinster.

Baraona
01-12-2021, 11:01 AM
Its seems like a new DF27>Z195 (~4400 yo) from Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue (France) appears on the paper "Heterogeneous Hunter-Gatherer and Steppe-Related Ancestries in Late Neolithic and Bell Beaker Genomes from Present-Day France".

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(20)31835-2?fbclid=IwAR2DefL6suzjplU-ABy7x54WatRqnx3lYC05G7TIunImCFCMxyKogNyg0AQ

R.Rocca
01-12-2021, 12:55 PM
Its seems like a new DF27>Z195 (~440k yo) from Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue (France) appears on the paper "Heterogeneous Hunter-Gatherer and Steppe-Related Ancestries in Late Neolithic and Bell Beaker Genomes from Present-Day France".

https://www.cell.com/curre.../fulltext/S0960-9822(20)31835-2

I think you meant ~4400 yo, but either way, DF27>Z195 sample "GBVPK" dates to 2461-2299 cal BC.

MitchellSince1893
01-12-2021, 02:09 PM
Its seems like a new DF27>Z195 (~440k yo) from Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue (France) appears on the paper "Heterogeneous Hunter-Gatherer and Steppe-Related Ancestries in Late Neolithic and Bell Beaker Genomes from Present-Day France".

https://www.cell.com/curre.../fulltext/S0960-9822(20)31835-2
Link goes to a blank page

Baraona
01-12-2021, 02:35 PM
edited!

Webb
01-12-2021, 03:42 PM
Its seems like a new DF27>Z195 (~4400 yo) from Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue (France) appears on the paper "Heterogeneous Hunter-Gatherer and Steppe-Related Ancestries in Late Neolithic and Bell Beaker Genomes from Present-Day France".

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(20)31835-2?fbclid=IwAR2DefL6suzjplU-ABy7x54WatRqnx3lYC05G7TIunImCFCMxyKogNyg0AQ

Great catch!!!! I usually comb through the papers when they come out or watch to see if anyone makes calls on the dna results, but I hadn't gotten to this one yet.

Webb
01-12-2021, 03:44 PM
I think you meant ~4400 yo, but either way, DF27>Z195 sample "GBVPK" dates to 2461-2299 cal BC.

So this sample is really close in age to the Sicilian Bell Beaker samples.

MitchellSince1893
01-12-2021, 04:08 PM
Is this midpoint date of 2380 BC the 2nd oldest DF27?

Webb
01-12-2021, 05:06 PM
Is this midpoint date of 2380 BC the 2nd oldest DF27?

Sample I0806 with a Corded Ware axe and a Bell Beaker in c. 2290 BC (2431-2150 calBC) found in Quedlinburg, Germany.

From Corner's website, just because it was the easiest way to find the Sicilian samples, "The two DF27>Z195 males date to around 2200 BC - earlier than the earliest DF27 yet found in Iberia c. 1897 BC but not as old as I0806 in Germany (c. 2290 BC). The two DF27>Z195 males are I8561, from Isnello (Abisso del Vento), (2346-2199 calBCE) and I3123 from Buffa Cave near Villafrati, (2287-2044 calBCE). "

So it looks like this sample, DF27>Z195 sample "GBVPK" , 2461-2299 cal BC., might be the oldest now, though they are all very close.

razyn
01-12-2021, 06:09 PM
The actual paper is pretty short (with lots of bibliography and supplementary stuff after). From the bottom of p. 6 almost the end, there is a lot of important commentary on this specific example. In particular, the part about "patterns of LD decay" is intriguing -- or would be, if I knew what the hell they were talking about.* Anyway look for the key abbreviation GBVPK, that's our DF27>Z195 guy; and he is unique in several other respects, besides being Z195+ like the "related" immigrants to Sicily, and me. And they speak of 2650 BCE, i.e. nine to ten generations before him, for his Yamnaya-like, incomer ancestors (who, excuse me, weren't R1a Corded Ware guys).

Also, n.b., Figure 4E, the bottom three charts (with purple data points) compare the GBVPK sample with three others. In the caption for that figure, it is imprecisely called GBVK:
Yamnaya-related admixture time estimated using the GBVK genome and various proxies for Late Neolithic populations...

*(smacks face) Linkage Disequilibrium! Of course! How did I not just intuit that? [I had trouble finding this with Google search; however, the paper's authors did explain it in the last paragraph on their p.5, and I had just missed that.]

MitchellSince1893
01-12-2021, 11:31 PM
Looked through the supplemental data on GBVK. Their best guess date is 2387 BC. Congrats to my fellow Z11 bros on the discovery of the oldest DF27 so far.
So oldest DF27 in SW France and oldest (2542 BC) U152 in SE Germany (on Danube near Austrian border).

They both eventually go back to the same Z11 individual.

razyn
01-13-2021, 12:01 AM
Congrats to my fellow Z11 bros on the discovery of the oldest DF27 so far.
So oldest DF27 in SW France and oldest (2542 BC) U152 in SE Germany (on Danube near Austrian border).

They both eventually go back to the same Z11 individual.

Well, the oldest guess at a date for a long-deceased DF27 guy, currently sequenced -- at least with a decent chip test. There are also Alsatian, Sicilian and Elbe-German examples, plus a couple actually in Iberia. They, and the numerous U152>L2 guys excavated in the Czech Republic, have the same grandpa. All with "steppe" ancestry, and with more of it the farther back they were living. THAT came from the steppe. Not from the Mediterranean shores of France.

GVBPK is an important find, and all; I just don't want to lose track of the actual narrative, in his brief blaze of glory.

Webb
01-13-2021, 01:49 AM
Well, the oldest guess at a date for a long-deceased DF27 guy, currently sequenced -- at least with a decent chip test. There are also Alsatian, Sardinian and Elbe-German examples, plus a couple actually in Iberia. They, and the numerous U152>L2 guys excavated in the Czech Republic, have the same grandpa. All with "steppe" ancestry, and with more of it the farther back they were living. THAT came from the steppe. Not from the Mediterranean shores of France.

GVBPK is an important find, and all; I just don't want to lose track of the actual narrative, in his brief blaze of glory.

Pinsk to Minsk is only a 3.5 hour drive.

MitchellSince1893
01-13-2021, 05:15 AM
Obviously P312's 3rd Millennium BC descendants were well travelled throughout much of Western and Central Europe.

Webb
01-13-2021, 02:12 PM
Looked through the supplemental data on GBVK. Their best guess date is 2387 BC. Congrats to my fellow Z11 bros on the discovery of the oldest DF27 so far.
So oldest DF27 in SW France and oldest (2542 BC) U152 in SE Germany (on Danube near Austrian border).

They both eventually go back to the same Z11 individual.

What is the oldest U152 sample from Italy?

R.Rocca
01-13-2021, 03:06 PM
What is the oldest U152 sample from Italy?

It's tough to say. There are quite a few Bell Beaker P312+ samples from Italy that do not have data for either DF27 nor U152. The oldest "secure" U152 samples are from Latin tribes, but it doubtful they are anywhere near the oldest.

MitchellSince1893
01-13-2021, 04:47 PM
There is an old U152 sample in SE France near Alps and the Italian border.

-I3875 BB_Southern_France France U152>L2 2459-2242 BCE Mean 2351 BCE
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c2/9c/f8/c29cf8ceb72099bbf402fa15bb6e9474.png

alejandromb92
01-13-2021, 04:58 PM
L2 = Hallstatt

https://c0.klipartz.com/pngpicture/323/962/gratis-png-senal-de-pulgar-meme-emocion-meme.png

wilderwill
03-31-2021, 09:15 PM
I have a question about BY27673, below s11121. I appear to be related to the Jernigan and Ralls families on Big Tree. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/jernigan?iframe=ycolorized
The Jernigan family according to seems to have journeyed to England with William the Conqueror in 1066.
Thomas Jernigan "the Immigrant" came to America in the 17th century according to this source. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Jernigan-86#S62
He immigrated to Virginia in the 1600's. https://jerniganjournal.wordpress.com/2012/01/27/from-king-edward-i-to-thomas-jernegan/

I haven't been able to find information on BY27673, I am BY 27679 and BY27716 after testing with Yseq. I am closer to the Ralls family of Cornwall where my family immigrated to Wisconsin.
Thanks for any leads on these two families.

wilderwill
04-20-2021, 11:12 PM
Wilderwill - I found my answer. See DF27 discussion thread.