PDA

View Full Version : Cheapest Y-DNA test?



jpb
08-14-2016, 09:00 PM
Hi-
I am looking for the cheapest Y-DNA test. I don't need a whole lot of information, but just want to have something to go off of.
Thanks.

lgmayka
08-14-2016, 09:39 PM
- You can order Y-DNA12 from a project order page such as this one (https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Polish) for $59, plus $13 shipping.

- You can order (the equivalent of) Y-DNA37 from Yseq for $88 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=34&osCsid=da8d3ecd827287f01c0d8d9f44b7c390), plus $5 shipping.

JerryS.
10-15-2019, 08:21 PM
one day they might be able to trace DNA from the grandparents..... Y DNA comes from my father, and grandfather, and great grandfather.... but cannot tell us anything about the X DNA of my dad's mom. my grandfather's mom... I guess my disenchantment comes from that my DNA can be broken down to who my fathers father's fathers were and who my mother's mother's mothers were but none of the other people that made up approx. 50% of the genetics passed down to the next person.....

digital_noise
10-16-2019, 03:41 PM
one day they might be able to trace DNA from the grandparents..... Y DNA comes from my father, and grandfather, and great grandfather.... but cannot tell us anything about the X DNA of my dad's mom. my grandfather's mom... I guess my disenchantment comes from that my DNA can be broken down to who my fathers father's fathers were and who my mother's mother's mothers were but none of the other people that made up approx. 50% of the genetics passed down to the next person.....

Your father could take an mtDNA test for that.

JerryS.
10-16-2019, 04:06 PM
Your father could take an mtDNA test for that.

yes, and would only show his mother and her mother and her mother..... not his maternal grandfather etc.... nor will it show his paternal grandmother....

digital_noise
10-16-2019, 10:55 PM
yes, and would only show his mother and her mother and her mother..... not his maternal grandfather etc.... nor will it show his paternal grandmother....

of course. I was just commenting on the part that is highlighted as bold above. You mentioned ".... but cannot tell us anything about the X DNA of my dad's mom" and an mtDNA test that he takes will. Like yo mentioned, it wont tell you anything else and is of limited usefulness here. Youd likely have to search out surnames and have them do Y DNA tests for the criteria you mentioned. $$, time and effort required there I am afraid.

JerryS.
10-17-2019, 01:20 AM
of course. I was just commenting on the part that is highlighted as bold above. You mentioned ".... but cannot tell us anything about the X DNA of my dad's mom" and an mtDNA test that he takes will. Like yo mentioned, it wont tell you anything else and is of limited usefulness here. Youd likely have to search out surnames and have them do Y DNA tests for the criteria you mentioned. $$, time and effort required there I am afraid.

I've been able to paper trail back to great great grandparents on both sides except one line stops at great grandparent because the rest of the paper trail would be overseas.

spruithean
10-17-2019, 01:16 PM
yes, and would only show his mother and her mother and her mother..... not his maternal grandfather etc.... nor will it show his paternal grandmother....

He could take an autosomal test or an actual X-chromosome test.

aaronbee2010
10-17-2019, 03:57 PM
of course. I was just commenting on the part that is highlighted as bold above. You mentioned ".... but cannot tell us anything about the X DNA of my dad's mom" and an mtDNA test that he takes will. Like yo mentioned, it wont tell you anything else and is of limited usefulness here. Youd likely have to search out surnames and have them do Y DNA tests for the criteria you mentioned. $$, time and effort required there I am afraid.

I was about to say this but you beat me to it.

YSEQ also tests 18 Y-STR's (YSEQ-Alpha) for $58 (plus $6 shipping), so JerryS could use this (or 23andMe on offer) to find other ancestral Y-DNA lines. I managed to get my maternal uncle to get a 23andMe test on offer and then paid for a single Y-SNP test for him from YSEQ. YSEQ or 23andMe (on offer) appear to be the cheapest avenues for finding Y-DNA lines.

Pylsteen
10-17-2019, 04:05 PM
remember, mt-DNA and the X-chromosome are not the same (https://dna-explained.com/2017/07/26/x-matching-and-mitochondrial-dna-is-not-the-same-thing/).

digital_noise
10-17-2019, 08:03 PM
Yes, I read that as fathers mother's mtDNA based on this topic and previous discussions.

The bottom line is its hard to get anywhere unless you get others to test. Then research etc... its hard work

xripkan
10-17-2019, 08:46 PM
I was about to say this but you beat me to it.

YSEQ also tests 18 Y-STR's (YSEQ-Alpha) for $58 (plus $6 shipping), so JerryS could use this (or 23andMe on offer) to find other ancestral Y-DNA lines. I managed to get my maternal uncle to get a 23andMe test on offer and then paid for a single Y-SNP test for him from YSEQ. YSEQ or 23andMe (on offer) appear to be the cheapest avenues for finding Y-DNA lines.

Do you know how much does it for Yseq kits to be shipped if you live in Europe?

Snkves
10-17-2019, 09:14 PM
Do you know how much does it for Yseq kits to be shipped if you live in Europe?

€5,22 EUR, return in a normal letter with a stamp to Germany.

xripkan
10-17-2019, 09:27 PM
€5,22 EUR, return in a normal letter with a stamp to Germany.

And how long does it take to be shipped to customer?

Snkves
10-17-2019, 09:31 PM
And how long does it take to be shipped to customer?

5 days for Sweden, depends on country.

xripkan
10-17-2019, 09:39 PM
5 days for Sweden, depends on country.

I am in Greece, I don't think it will take much more. I have just ordered two SNPs to determine my final subclade.

JerryS.
10-17-2019, 09:59 PM
Yes, I read that as fathers mother's mtDNA based on this topic and previous discussions.

The bottom line is its hard to get anywhere unless you get others to test. Then research etc... its hard work

my dad said he isn't going to take any tests, neither is his sister (my aunt). my aunt isn't going to because she wants to keep believing she is part Indian and my tests show that isn't so, yet she still believes..... my dad found out that there are some cousins that married up and he doesn't want to even think about it now... the closest thing I have now is a female 1st cousin whose dad was my dad's brother and her tests didn't show anything strange.

aaronbee2010
10-18-2019, 11:52 AM
Do you know how much does it for Yseq kits to be shipped if you live in Europe?

The rate is still $6, but YSEQ can convert it to GBP (4.68) and EUR (€5.22).

digital_noise
10-18-2019, 09:24 PM
my dad said he isn't going to take any tests, neither is his sister (my aunt). my aunt isn't going to because she wants to keep believing she is part Indian and my tests show that isn't so, yet she still believes..... my dad found out that there are some cousins that married up and he doesn't want to even think about it now... the closest thing I have now is a female 1st cousin whose dad was my dad's brother and her tests didn't show anything strange.

what do you mean by strange? I dont think any of these Y or mtDNA would show anything out of the ordinary honestly.

JerryS.
10-19-2019, 11:54 AM
what do you mean by strange? I dont think any of these Y or mtDNA would show anything out of the ordinary honestly.

strange as in unexpected, that's all.

Stone Meadow
10-19-2019, 02:47 PM
my dad said he isn't going to take any tests, neither is his sister (my aunt). my aunt isn't going to because she wants to keep believing she is part Indian and my tests show that isn't so, yet she still believes..... my dad found out that there are some cousins that married up and he doesn't want to even think about it now... the closest thing I have now is a female 1st cousin whose dad was my dad's brother and her tests didn't show anything strange.

If your uncle is alive and willing to do some testing for you, his results can tell you everything about your grandparents your father's could.

JerryS.
10-19-2019, 06:31 PM
If your uncle is alive and willing to do some testing for you, his results can tell you everything about your grandparents your father's could.

he was murdered a while back, so all we have is what our dad's Y line would be (to me) and what their X line would be (to my cousin but hers is combined). when it was cheap and easy it was fun, but we just aren't that interested to spend the money on other tests. thanks though.

msmarjoribanks
10-19-2019, 09:53 PM
he was murdered a while back, so all we have is what our dad's Y line would be (to me) and what their X line would be (to my cousin but hers is combined). when it was cheap and easy it was fun, but we just aren't that interested to spend the money on other tests. thanks though.

Sorry to hear that.

What tests have you done? You might be able to learn more than you realize.

You can get some from mtDNA and YDNA of matches on 23andMe once you identify what the connections are. I've identified the YDNA for some of the surnames in my tree there. Same with Gedmatch if the testers identify their mt or Y.

There are also surname projects on FTDNA, where you might find relatives. I've gotten my mom's first cousin (he is a male line descendant of her paternal grandfather) to test, but that just confirmed a tester there already, and also confirmed that they were YDNA matches to a male line descendant of a man I've suspected might be a brother or cousin of my gggg grandfather, as they have an uncommon surname and showed up near each other in the same part of Ohio in the early 1800s. The cousin and I are matches, but I couldn't be sure it was due to his YDNA line until the test (so far these men are perfect 37 matches, so it might be nice to test further, especially as they are R-M269). I would like to find more projects for the surnames I am most interested in (but getting people to test is challenging, even though in some cases I'd pay).

That said, for ethnicity or identifying ancestors, autosomal is usually most useful anyway, depending on the goal. My dad's YDNA is interesting to me, but I don't think it is for him yet, due to the lack of matches. His mtDNA just happens to be able to confirm our farthest back ancestry, so that was nice, and mine seems to be helping with a brick wall, but it's just happenstance that my personal favorite brick wall is on my maternal grandmother's mother's mother's line.

JerryS.
10-20-2019, 12:18 PM
Sorry to hear that.

What tests have you done? You might be able to learn more than you realize.

You can get some from mtDNA and YDNA of matches on 23andMe once you identify what the connections are. I've identified the YDNA for some of the surnames in my tree there. Same with Gedmatch if the testers identify their mt or Y.

There are also surname projects on FTDNA, where you might find relatives. I've gotten my mom's first cousin (he is a male line descendant of her paternal grandfather) to test, but that just confirmed a tester there already, and also confirmed that they were YDNA matches to a male line descendant of a man I've suspected might be a brother or cousin of my gggg grandfather, as they have an uncommon surname and showed up near each other in the same part of Ohio in the early 1800s. The cousin and I are matches, but I couldn't be sure it was due to his YDNA line until the test (so far these men are perfect 37 matches, so it might be nice to test further, especially as they are R-M269). I would like to find more projects for the surnames I am most interested in (but getting people to test is challenging, even though in some cases I'd pay).

That said, for ethnicity or identifying ancestors, autosomal is usually most useful anyway, depending on the goal. My dad's YDNA is interesting to me, but I don't think it is for him yet, due to the lack of matches. His mtDNA just happens to be able to confirm our farthest back ancestry, so that was nice, and mine seems to be helping with a brick wall, but it's just happenstance that my personal favorite brick wall is on my maternal grandmother's mother's mother's line.

our tests were with Ancestry, mine about 10 years ago I think or close to it, while hers was 2 or so years ago. the test analogies from virtually every calculator as well as paper trails leaves little doubt that our fathers paternal line is from England.

Ayetooey
10-21-2019, 08:32 PM
The OP is long gone, but for anyone else interested in knowing their very basic Y dna clade, then myheritagedna will probs be the cheapest when its the sale period (which we're not that far off, it being late October), it went down to 40 USD if I remember correctly last sale. Just use that and upload it to Morley, and you'll get autosomal and OK raw data along with it. If you want something for genealogical purposes; then FTDNA y-12 is the cheapest, and they keep your spit so you can upgrade to something higher if you want more in-depth info.

ArmandoR1b
10-26-2019, 04:16 AM
The OP is long gone, but for anyone else interested in knowing their very basic Y dna clade, then myheritagedna will probs be the cheapest when its the sale period (which we're not that far off, it being late October), it went down to 40 USD if I remember correctly last sale. Just use that and upload it to Morley, and you'll get autosomal and OK raw data along with it. If you want something for genealogical purposes; then FTDNA y-12 is the cheapest, and they keep your spit so you can upgrade to something higher if you want more in-depth info.

FTDNA y-12 has no useful purpose. Even at Y37 there can be too many false matches causing confusion and testers get upset that they need to spend a lot more for an upgrade to find out which matches are false and which aren't. The Y-DNA SNPs in myheritagedna was even more limited than AncestryDNA and 23andme the last I saw. FTDNA autosomal raw data now has Y-DNA since it now uses the same chip as 23andme and AncestryDNA. Yseq has the cheapest option for SNPs since panels can be purchased without a Y-DNA STR test.

rms2
10-26-2019, 01:25 PM
FTDNA y-12 has no useful purpose . . .

I don't usually disagree with you, but this time I must.

FTDNA's Y-12 has a number of very useful purposes. It's relatively cheap, so it enables one to test potential y-dna relatives/matches without a lot of risk. It gets them in the door and their samples into FTDNA's lab and cold storage, where upgrades and other tests become available.

Exact and very close 12-marker matches who share one's own surname are well worth contacting to see if they'll upgrade or allow you to pay for an upgrade.

I have a number of higher order matches that started that way, one of whom turned out to be a second cousin once removed (his y-dna great grandfather is my second great grandfather). I didn't know him from Adam's ox when he first popped up as an exact 12-marker match back in 2007.

Of course, more STRs are better, but 12 are far better than zero.

Ayetooey
10-26-2019, 08:13 PM
FTDNA y-12 has no useful purpose. Even at Y37 there can be too many false matches causing confusion and testers get upset that they need to spend a lot more for an upgrade to find out which matches are false and which aren't. The Y-DNA SNPs in myheritagedna was even more limited than AncestryDNA and 23andme the last I saw. FTDNA autosomal raw data now has Y-DNA since it now uses the same chip as 23andme and AncestryDNA. Yseq has the cheapest option for SNPs since panels can be purchased without a Y-DNA STR test.

Question was which is the cheapest Y dna test not which is the best. Y-12 has a purpose for someone who literally wants to know their Y dna haplogroup and do some very basic research; there is no question that for someone serious about tracing their paternal origin, a more expensive test would be better suited.

digital_noise
10-26-2019, 09:17 PM
I made the mistake of assuming a Y-111 test would give me more Y DNA info than the 23 and me test and thats incorrect. 23 and Me got me to E-V13. The Y-111 test only said E-M35. I had to E-V13 SNP pack test, Big Y 500 and then Big Y 700 to get the info i was initially after. I should have just gone Y700 to begin with but that was my mistake. So, like mentioned, the Y-12 serves a purpose if your surname or Y DNA halogroup is more active\but dont expect it to tell you anything. They nickle and dime you with SNP packs for that haha.

ArmandoR1b
10-26-2019, 09:30 PM
I don't usually disagree with you, but this time I must.

FTDNA's Y-12 has a number of very useful purposes. It's relatively cheap, so it enables one to test potential y-dna relatives/matches without a lot of risk. It gets them in the door and their samples into FTDNA's lab and cold storage, where upgrades and other tests become available.

Exact and very close 12-marker matches who share one's own surname are well worth contacting to see if they'll upgrade or allow you to pay for an upgrade.

I have a number of higher order matches that started that way, one of whom turned out to be a second cousin once removed (his y-dna great grandfather is my second great grandfather). I didn't know him from Adam's ox when he first popped up as an exact 12-marker match back in 2007.

Of course, more STRs are better, but 12 are far better than zero.

At the same time, anyone inquiring about Y-DNA testing should understand the caveats. One is that there is a significant percentage of people without matches at the 12 marker level. Per your post we both agree that an upgrade is best if there is a match meaning more money needs to be spent. If there is no one willing to sponsor an upgrade then the person is stuck with having to pay for the upgrade.

ArmandoR1b
10-26-2019, 09:35 PM
Question was which is the cheapest Y dna test not which is the best. Y-12 has a purpose for someone who literally wants to know their Y dna haplogroup and do some very basic research; there is no question that for someone serious about tracing their paternal origin, a more expensive test would be better suited.

Anyone asking for the cheapest Y-DNA test should be informed that the very cheapest options provide very little information and should spend just a little more to get more relevant information. 23andme, AncestryDNA, and FTDNA autosomal are much better options than myheritagedna since the cost is not much higher and more Y-DNA SNPs are tested by those companies providing a better idea of which subclade they belong to. 23andme, as far as I know, is the only one of those that officially reports the paternal haplogroup instead of having to look at the raw data or depend on an outdated tool such as the Morley predictor.

The Y12 test provides a predicted Y-DNA haplogroup that is so far upstream that it really doesn't help researching it. For instance, a result of R-M269 from a Y12 test isn't very informative and there isn't much research to do and the Internet has way too many outdated and erroneous hypotheses that it would save people time to just get a subclade from a test that includes sufficient SNPs or an STR test at FTDNA that removes a majority of false matches such as the Y67. The high number of false matches, or even no matches, from a Y12 isn't very helpful.

ArmandoR1b
10-26-2019, 09:44 PM
I made the mistake of assuming a Y-111 test would give me more Y DNA info than the 23 and me test and thats incorrect. 23 and Me got me to E-V13. The Y-111 test only said E-M35. I had to E-V13 SNP pack test, Big Y 500 and then Big Y 700 to get the info i was initially after. I should have just gone Y700 to begin with but that was my mistake. So, like mentioned, the Y-12 serves a purpose if your surname or Y DNA halogroup is more active\but dont expect it to tell you anything. They nickle and dime you with SNP packs for that haha.

This is why in the long run it is best to just get the Big Y-700. Nowadays, it is available to a first time tester. It wasn't long ago that it wasn't even available and once it became available an STR test had to be purchased first.

A less expensive option for getting fairly close to the most downstream SNP is get the 23andme test then get an SNP panel at Yseq based on the result at 23andme.

There is a Top-Level Orientation Panel (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=56898) at Yseq for $159.00 that includes the relevant haplogroup Superclade Panel in the price. That is the best choice if not interested in an autosomal test and not interested in STR matching but want the most bang for the buck without spending more than $200.

Did you have any matches at the Y111 or Y67 level? If so, had they done SNP testing?

digital_noise
10-27-2019, 05:06 AM
no, I have no matches at those levels. Its been pretty underwhelming to be honest. E-V13 splits to CTS5856 or PH1246. Most of the activity is on the CTS5856 side and I'm on the PH1246. Crickets chirping comes to mind lol

msmarjoribanks
10-27-2019, 03:19 PM
At the same time, anyone inquiring about Y-DNA testing should understand the caveats. One is that there is a significant percentage of people without matches at the 12 marker level. Per your post we both agree that an upgrade is best if there is a match meaning more money needs to be spent. If there is no one willing to sponsor an upgrade then the person is stuck with having to pay for the upgrade.

It all depends on the purpose for the test.

rms makes the very good point that if there is a desire to check and possibly rule out a match that Y-12 might be sufficient, and one of the good things about FTDNA is that it's so easy to upgrade to a higher level later (without testing again).

To actually confirm a match, of course, a higher level is going to be necessary, at least if one is not a really rare haplogroup. (My dad has thousands of Y-12 matches, even perfect matches.) However, if I had a strong suspicion someone were a real match I'd probably encourage Y-37 at least. I think the circumstances and the reasons for the test are going to matter.

ArmandoR1b
10-27-2019, 05:13 PM
It all depends on the purpose for the test.

rms makes the very good point that if there is a desire to check and possibly rule out a match that Y-12 might be sufficient

If they aren't a match then they will very likely want to know more and will need to upgrade and/or buy a different test. If they are a match they will very likely want proof that it isn't a false match and will likely need to upgrade. Both situations cause a need to upgrade. Potential new testers should be fully informed what they are getting into prior to purchasing a Y12 test. There are a lot of people that get a Y12 thinking they are going to get more info than they do.

If a tested person pays for another person's Y12 just to see if that other person is a match then that is one of the very few that I can think of that is a reason for a Y12 but that situation is fairly uncommon.


one of the good things about FTDNA is that it's so easy to upgrade to a higher level later (without testing again). Yes, but my point is that the Y12 is normally insufficient and an upgrade would likely need to be purchased for sufficient information of a person's ancestry and potential new testers should be informed of that.


To actually confirm a match, of course, a higher level is going to be necessary, at least if one is not a really rare haplogroup. (My dad has thousands of Y-12 matches, even perfect matches.) However, if I had a strong suspicion someone were a real match I'd probably encourage Y-37 at least. I think the circumstances and the reasons for the test are going to matter.

It is partly because of the possibility of needing to confirm a match and many times the high number of matches at Y12 is why the potential customer should be informed that the Y12 will very likely not be sufficient and that it is best to start off with more STRs or be ready to spend more for an upgrade in a majority of cases if they are truly interested in learning about their ancestry.

Back in 2010, I already had enough experience with Y-DNA testing that I knew that I needed to convince a person with my surname to get the Y67 from the start and an upgrade to Y111 in 2012. He is still my only significant match. I have also worked with a lot of distant relatives, whose direct paternal ancestors are my ancestors through other lines, on Y-DNA testing and proving and disproving which lineage they belong to.

MacUalraig
10-27-2019, 06:59 PM
Anyone asking for the cheapest Y-DNA test should be informed that the very cheapest options provide very little information and should spend just a little more to get more relevant information. 23andme, AncestryDNA, and FTDNA autosomal are much better options than myheritagedna since the cost is not much higher and more Y-DNA SNPs are tested by those companies providing a better idea of which subclade they belong to. 23andme, as far as I know, is the only one of those that officially reports the paternal haplogroup instead of having to look at the raw data or depend on an outdated tool such as the Morley predictor.

The Y12 test provides a predicted Y-DNA haplogroup that is so far upstream that it really doesn't help researching it. For instance, a result of R-M269 from a Y12 test isn't very informative and there isn't much research to do and the Internet has way too many outdated and erroneous hypotheses that it would save people time to just get a subclade from a test that includes sufficient SNPs or an STR test at FTDNA that removes a majority of false matches such as the Y67. The high number of false matches, or even no matches, from a Y12 isn't very helpful.

I would agree on
1. 23andMe for a half decent but non-upgradeable test
2. YSEQ universal SNP panel if you need upgradeable

for cheapest meaningful ones.

However false positive rates at Y67 in M222 are shockingly high, at least in enough cases to render it a waste of money and time for the punter. And for me if I have to wade through it for him and explain it to him. I was rechecking my spreadsheet today and had forgotten I actually have one guy in M222->S660 who hit 100% fp as well as the 98% case in M222->FGC4077 I mentioned in another forum. My own is 71% wrong.

msmarjoribanks
10-27-2019, 07:30 PM
If they aren't a match then they will very likely want to know more and will need to upgrade and/or buy a different test. If they are a match they will very likely want proof that it isn't a false match and will likely need to upgrade. Both situations cause a need to upgrade. Potential new testers should be fully informed what they are getting into prior to purchasing a Y12 test. There are a lot of people that get a Y12 thinking they are going to get more info than they do.

If a tested person pays for another person's Y12 just to see if that other person is a match then that is one of the very few that I can think of that is a reason for a Y12 but that situation is fairly uncommon.

Yes, but my point is that the Y12 is normally insufficient and an upgrade would likely need to be purchased for sufficient information of a person's ancestry and potential new testers should be informed of that.



It is partly because of the possibility of needing to confirm a match and many times the high number of matches at Y12 is why the potential customer should be informed that the Y12 will very likely not be sufficient and that it is best to start off with more STRs or be ready to spend more for an upgrade in a majority of cases if they are truly interested in learning about their ancestry.

Back in 2010, I already had enough experience with Y-DNA testing that I knew that I needed to convince a person with my surname to get the Y67 from the start and an upgrade to Y111 in 2012. He is still my only significant match. I have also worked with a lot of distant relatives, whose direct paternal ancestors are my ancestors through other lines, on Y-DNA testing and proving and disproving which lineage they belong to.

It appears you may not be able to do anything below Y-37 anyway, at least I couldn't find prices for other tests.

My point is that it really depends on WHY the person is testing. $169 is a lot of money, so I would need to have a pretty strong likelihood that the test would be helpful for me to go around offering to pay that. I am willing to offer to pay it for male descendants of surnames in my family I am interested in, if they are not interested enough to pay themselves, and willing to test. There, I would agree that Y-12 is not useful, and Y-37 would be a good start.

However, if there are some indications that my dad and another man (with his surname and a distant aDNA match, say) could be matches, and I float the Y idea, and the man says "yeah, but I'm not interested in paying more than $99 (or $69) or whatever, I would find a Y-12 potentially useful, and would find it MORE useful if my dad did not have such a common haplogroup. It could rule out the connection and avoid me spending $169, and for the person with the less common group it could be a good indication that we should pursue the testing.

If

Regarding the Y-12 isn't helpful for the person testing, you don't know what that person cares about. IME, very few DNA testers really care about their specific subclades and so on (or even know what they mean). They might be curious to know if they are Western Atlantic Modal, or if they are something rare, or if they are likely connected to a certain person or, very often, if they match others of their surname. I think you'd ideally need to do Y-37 to really have an idea of the latter too (and it will depend on the surname), but they may have reasons to want to test Y-12 to check on a certain match or to see if there seem to be any surname patterns or what not. For WAMH, Y-12 is typically not valuable other than to rule out possible matches, but for others it might be sufficient to find surname matches.

I can see being skeptical about a match on the patrilineal line, but if it appeared possible and the person said they'd only test Y-12, I can imagine then paying to upgrade if there was a match and the person still was not interested, and presumably that would be cheaper than the $169 for non-on-sale Y-37.

I would certainly encourage Y-37 as a starting point and explain why, but I think there are reasons why starting lower might be a preferable option for some.

And Y-67 vs Y-37 is actually not going to be necessarily beneficial for a potential match for my dad. Y-37 would be a strong indication of a connection and the next step I'd recommend would be a package to see if he was L-21, DF-63, etc. Y-67 gets you R-M269, at least for my dad, which is not particularly exciting.

If someone's main interest is simply a cheap way to know their subclade and they are also interested in matches and ancestry, I'd likely recommend 23andMe.

ArmandoR1b
10-27-2019, 09:15 PM
It appears you may not be able to do anything below Y-37 anyway, at least I couldn't find prices for other tests.

There is a hidden way to do it.


My point is that it really depends on WHY the person is testing. $169 is a lot of money, so I would need to have a pretty strong likelihood that the test would be helpful for me to go around offering to pay that. I am willing to offer to pay it for male descendants of surnames in my family I am interested in, if they are not interested enough to pay themselves, and willing to test. There, I would agree that Y-12 is not useful, and Y-37 would be a good start. Exactly. I am interested in the Y-DNA of my relatives who are direct male descendants of ancestors of mine from other lines, not my own direct paternal line, and a Y12 wouldn't make sense at all.


However, if there are some indications that my dad and another man (with his surname and a distant aDNA match, say) could be matches, and I float the Y idea, and the man says "yeah, but I'm not interested in paying more than $99 (or $69) or whatever, I would find a Y-12 potentially useful, and would find it MORE useful if my dad did not have such a common haplogroup. It could rule out the connection and avoid me spending $169, and for the person with the less common group it could be a good indication that we should pursue the testing. That would be an even more uncommon situation but at least that person expressed that spending more than a certain amount is not an option. The important thing is for people to be informed.


If

Regarding the Y-12 isn't helpful for the person testing, you don't know what that person cares about. IME, very few DNA testers really care about their specific subclades and so on (or even know what they mean). They might be curious to know if they are Western Atlantic Modal, or if they are something rare, or if they are likely connected to a certain person or, very often, if they match others of their surname. I think you'd ideally need to do Y-37 to really have an idea of the latter too (and it will depend on the surname), but they may have reasons to want to test Y-12 to check on a certain match or to see if there seem to be any surname patterns or what not. For WAMH, Y-12 is typically not valuable other than to rule out possible matches, but for others it might be sufficient to find surname matches.
It's a bit contradictory for a person to want to get a Y-DNA test to learn about their ancestry and not care about subclades and what they mean. I would recommend for those people to save their money and not even get a Y-DNA test. A potential tester just interested in seeing surname matches should be informed that there is a good possibility of matching due to convergence and that the matching is coincidental and more testing is needed to prove it isn't coincidental. A person just wanting to know if they have the Western Atlantic Modal probably should just save their money. There isn't much difference in getting that as compared to finding out they belong to a less common major haplogroup.


I can see being skeptical about a match on the patrilineal line, but if it appeared possible and the person said they'd only test Y-12, I can imagine then paying to upgrade if there was a match and the person still was not interested, and presumably that would be cheaper than the $169 for non-on-sale Y-37. that would be a very unlikely situation and one of the few that the Y12 is a reason for Y12. The important thing is that all parties are informed of the possible situation before purchasing the Y12.


I would certainly encourage Y-37 as a starting point and explain why, but I think there are reasons why starting lower might be a preferable option for some. That is what my point was. Encourage higher level STR testing than Y12 and explain why. I just initially made the reason not to get a Y12 a lot shorter due to a time constraint.


And Y-67 vs Y-37 is actually not going to be necessarily beneficial for a potential match for my dad. Y-37 would be a strong indication of a connection and the next step I'd recommend would be a package to see if he was L-21, DF-63, etc. Y-67 gets you R-M269, at least for my dad, which is not particularly exciting. It's L21 or R-L21 not L-21. It is also DF63 or R-DF63 and not DF-63. There aren't dashes between the lab and the number but there is a dash between the major haplogroup and the SNP. The potential tester also needs to be explained that STR testing only provides a predicted haplogroup that is based on the first 12 STRs and the prediction by FTDNA isn't redone with more STR testing. They also need to be explained that SNP packs at FTDNA are more expensive than SNP panels at Yseq and that the SNP packs don't always include genealogically relevant SNPs. STR and SNP tests are two different things and even with the Y12 there is no SNP testing unless FTDNA pays for an SNP assurance test.



If someone's main interest is simply a cheap way to know their subclade and they are also interested in matches and ancestry, I'd likely recommend 23andMe.23andme is a good option which is why I have mentioned them as an option in previous posts in this thread including that fact that 23andme has more Y-DNA SNPs than MyHeritageDNA. The caveat which needs to be explained to potential testers is that there is no STR testing at 23andme and therefore matches with the same paternal haplogroup could be due to coincidence and that the Y-DNA SNPs, in most cases, first appeared so long ago, that they have no genealogical purpose. If they want Y-DNA matching in the direct paternal line then they need STR testing and to eliminate false matches higher level testing will be needed.

msmarjoribanks
10-27-2019, 09:57 PM
Exactly. I am interested in the Y-DNA of my relatives who are direct male descendants of ancestors of mine from other lines, not my own direct paternal line, and a Y12 wouldn't make sense at all.

Agreed in that context, but often someone who hasn't tested and who is approached for the first time doesn't have the same interest. (I have approached people about this, and gotten "why would it be interesting," and without a surname project it can be really hard to get them interested.


It's a bit contradictory for a person to want to get a Y-DNA test to learn about their ancestry and not care about subclades and what they mean. I would recommend for those people to save their money and not even get a Y-DNA test. A potential tester just interested in seeing surname matches should be informed that there is a good possibility of matching due to convergence and that the matching is coincidental and more testing is needed to prove it isn't coincidental. A person just wanting to know if they have the Western Atlantic Modal probably should just save their money. There isn't much difference in getting that as compared to finding out they belong to a less common major haplogroup.

I find it's pretty common to get the test just out of curiosity (that's why I got mtDNA, although it turned out to be more helpful, especially for my dad, than anticipated). You read one of the early books like Tribes of the British Isles or whatever it was called and want to know the broad haplogroup you are in or, more common, you want to see who with your last name you likely descend from the same ancestor as.

My cousin (mom's surname) was willing to test because we were checking whether he and another distant match who descended from a man who lived near my gg-,etc., grandfather in Ohio in 1820 were likely brothers or cousins. He did Y-37, which was enough to tell us that they were, but he only knows R-M269 with that and doesn't seem interested in knowing more.

My dad's only BigY match was at one point his only perfect Y-37 match (of 3 total), and was uninterested in testing more for ages. He was in his surname project but non of the R-M269 projects and did not seek to learn a more specific subclade, even when I tried to explain why that might be interesting and that he might be able to do some targeted testing. I suspect getting frustrated with that situation may be why he finally did go for all the tests (I have encouraged him to join the projects and YFull).

So I disagree about what is common or not, I think people who post here sometimes have a different idea about what people are likely to be interested in than you would think.


It's L21 or R-L21 not L-21. It is also DF63 or R-DF63 and not DF-63. There aren't dashes between the lab and the number but there is a dash between the major haplogroup and the SNP.

Pretty sure you knew what I mean, and that it was clear to everyone. Thanks for calling me out on being sloppy (as you can see I referenced R-M269, so I did know that, but got tripped up because I was also typing Y-37 and so on). I'm not really sure what the point of being pedantic here is.


The potential tester also needs to be explained that STR testing only provides a predicted haplogroup that is based on the first 12 STRs and the prediction by FTDNA isn't redone with more STR testing. They also need to be explained that SNP packs at FTDNA are more expensive than SNP panels at Yseq and that the SNP packs don't always include genealogically relevant SNPs. STR and SNP tests are two different things and even with the Y12 there is no SNP testing unless FTDNA pays for an SNP assurance test.

The conversation with the potential tester should focus on the reasons the potential tester is interested. You assume too much about what the person wants. IME, as someone in the US, most people care about matches and want to test at a place where they will get matches. They are not really interested (not yet) in whether they are R-BY1234 (so far as I know I made that one up) vs. RBY2233 (same). If we were at a point when that told them something specific about their ancestry, which it typically does not, then maybe, but normally, IME, what they are about is match-related or idle curiosity, and most are not willing to spend a whole lot of money on the later. Not until the bug gets them, anyway.

Anyway, I do agree with explaining the limits of Y-12, and I would also tell them that if we have a match I would pay to upgrade if they share the information. BigY is not going to be something someone not previously interested in testing is going to jump to; it's just not. And nor is Yseq. For someone who posts on this forum saying "I really want to know my subclade," sure, that might be a good option, but that's why the reason you want to test matters.