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View Full Version : Oddities in the FTNDA R-L21 Haplotree



swid
08-19-2016, 07:48 PM
This fell out of staring at Mike's (very, very handy) spreadsheet of R1b branches on the FTDNA haplotree earlier...here's some oddities that I've noticed:

F4006 - listed as being immediately below L21
From a Google search of FTDNA's site, there appears to be precisely one (publicly viewable) person on the database who is listed as being R-F4006 - kit 158507. When you look at his SNP testing results, it doesn't appear that he's actually been tested for DF13 (or any other subclade direct beneath L21, for that matter). He's also in the L21 haplotype spreadsheet; while he's assigned to the "df13-z3931414" cluster, he's not terribly close to it at 67 markers and has a closest GD of 24 at 111 markers, with no one cluster dominant in his nearest matches at that level. Finally, YBrowse lists F4006 as being below C and it's not noted as a mutation on the Big Tree. Overall...a headscratcher.

FGC17059 - listed as being between DF13 and L1335
I can't find any (publicly viewable) person in FTDNA's database who is listed as just being R-FGC17059; every person who's listed as being FGC17059+ on the L21 haplotype spreadsheet is (at a minimum) also L1065+. YBrowse lists FGC17059 as being below L1335->S756 and it's not noted as a mutation on the Big Tree.

Z39589 - listed as being under L371->FGC30633->FGC30632
Nope. (http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1254)

Huntergatherer1066
08-19-2016, 09:37 PM
I can speak on F4006 from my time working for FTDNA/NatGeo, there are several F4006+ people tested via the Genographic Project, however most have not transferred to their results to FTDNA. We did confirm via testing that F4006 is parallel to not downstream of DF13 and DF63; this was a year and a half ago though so I am not sure about the more recently discovered subclades after my time.

swid
08-20-2016, 03:03 AM
I can speak on F4006 from my time working for FTDNA/NatGeo, there are several F4006+ people tested via the Genographic Project, however most have not transferred to their results to FTDNA. We did confirm via testing that F4006 is parallel to not downstream of DF13 and DF63; this was a year and a half ago though so I am not sure about the more recently discovered subclades after my time.

Thanks for that; it's a shame that none of them have gone the NGS route (or, for that matter, have tested the non-DF13, non-DF63 subclades).

Also...apparently I can't type. If any of the mods want to correct the typo in the thread title, please go ahead and do so.

Mikewww
08-22-2016, 05:49 PM
This is from the L21 yahoo group. I've created a new file to help people look at SNP result branching "proof" information.

I posted last week a downloaded (spreadsheet) version of the FTDNA haplotree. It is available;
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Outline

and also in a PDF format:
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Outline-pdf

The above R1b-Tree_Outline spreadsheet just makes it easier to see the FTDNA haplotree without going into myFTDNA and clicking on "Haplotree and SNPs". You can quickly narrow to just the L21 branches by selecting "R1b-P312>L21" in the column A, the "Major Subgroup" (of the R1b project) column.

Here is the new file I created last night, R1b-L21_SNP_Results. It is at the URL below. I'll try to update it once a month from the R-L21 project Y DNA SNP report web page. For the first update, I included about 20 sub-L21 haplogroup projects, but I won't be able to pull from all of them once a month.

http://tinyurl.com/R1b-L21-SNP-Results

This is not huge like R1b-L21_Haplotpes but it is an MS Excel file. You can use the "find" or "ctrl-F" functions to find particular SNP results but it is most useful when using the Excel custom autofilter drop down arrow on the SNP results column heading.

There is more to it than this, but you can quickly get a list of kit #s to research for potential use in a proof for a submission to Michael Sager at FTDNA. (michaels@genebygene.com)

swid
09-02-2016, 06:27 PM
Mike,

Thanks for getting Z39589 added to the FTDNA L21 tree! Now, if only they'd offer it to order...

While I was poring over their current version of the R-L21 tree, I think I figured out why a man's FTDNA SNP display sometimes would get flipped to being listed as "F-M89". Currently, M481 is directly below DF13...however, M481 is (as far as anyone knows) only defines a clade directly beneath F. So...if a DF13+ man has "M89+ M481-" in his SNP results and the displayed SNP results didn't fit him to another spot furthunderneath DF13, the next best guess their haplotree software would give (w/o manual intervention) for a fit was at F-M89.

Therefore, removing M481 from its spot directly below DF13 should fix that particular glitch from happening going forward.

Mikewww
09-03-2016, 03:35 AM
Mike,

Thanks for getting Z39589 added to the FTDNA L21 tree! Now, if only they'd offer it to order...

While I was poring over their current version of the R-L21 tree, I think I figured out why a man's FTDNA SNP display sometimes would get flipped to being listed as "F-M89". Currently, M481 is directly below DF13...however, M481 is (as far as anyone knows) only defines a clade directly beneath F. So...if a DF13+ man has "M89+ M481-" in his SNP results and the displayed SNP results didn't fit him to another spot furthunderneath DF13, the next best guess their haplotree software would give (w/o manual intervention) for a fit was at F-M89.

Therefore, removing M481 from its spot directly below DF13 should fix that particular glitch from happening going forward.
Thanks for looking at that F-M89 thing.

The R1b-L21 top-layer and misc subclades pack needs an update and is in process.

It is fairly easy to get changes made to the FTDNA haplotree through Michael Sager. We see Brian M just had some work done in DF49.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7309-Bushing-of-the-DF49-x-M222-Y-Tree&p=184282&viewfull=1#post184282

I had about 8 or 9 changes made this week. Sager did not automatically accept what I asked for. He went through his own validation process. I was surprise but he actually added a new branch with an SNP with a "?" in front of it. He said it needs further review.

I know several subclades in R1b are now working on updates to the tree.

To ALL: Please do not tarry for requesting your area of the tree to be updated.

swid
09-06-2016, 11:30 PM
To ALL: Please do not tarry for requesting your area of the tree to be updated.

I took your advice and emailed Michael Sager this afternoon about M481 and CTS11459 being listed directly underneath DF13 in error (as far as I could determine); three hours later, he replied and confirmed that they shouldn't be there and removed them from that location on the haplotree.

Mikewww
09-30-2016, 11:00 PM
I took your advice and emailed Michael Sager this afternoon about M481 and CTS11459 being listed directly underneath DF13 in error (as far as I could determine); three hours later, he replied and confirmed that they shouldn't be there and removed them from that location on the haplotree.
Thank you, Swid.
I'm asking all administrators and analysts to look at the FTDNA haplotree for L21 and submit any corrections (with kit #s) to Michael Sager (michaels@genebygene )
They have big project to get the haplotree in shape and I want L21 to be number one. I think we are. Given the project and the future projects that will be based on the haplotree work I think it is important to get our stuff submitted in the next couple of weeks.

swid
10-04-2016, 09:15 PM
I'm asking all administrators and analysts to look at the FTDNA haplotree for L21 and submit any corrections (with kit #s) to Michael Sager (michaels@genebygene )
They have big project to get the haplotree in shape and I want L21 to be number one. I think we are. Given the project and the future projects that will be based on the haplotree work I think it is important to get our stuff submitted in the next couple of weeks.

I noticed that the MacWho cluster SNPs (below MC14) weren't on the tree, so I emailed Michael and 20 minutes later he had the haplotree updated to include them. :) Their SNPs have been in the L21 Pack since the beginning, so I thought it was odd that they had never been added until now.