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View Full Version : DF49 (L21>DF13>DF49) & Subclades before M222



MacEochaidh
04-22-2013, 01:28 AM
Just wanted to get DF49 and Subclades on the board. The newest development is Z2961 which is between DF23 and M222. So far, we have one DF23 (Kelly) positive for Z2961 and one DF23 (Kehoe-me) negative for Z2961. I believe there may be five results pending.

Thanks, Miles Kehoe #97610

Peter M
04-24-2013, 03:51 PM
In order to have a reasonable current list of results, we've set up a DF49 results web page (http://l257.groenebeverbv.nl/index.php/test-results-families/df49) (including DF23, Z2961 and some M222). The page is on a site about R-Z18/L257 which is under the "alien" R-U106, but the software used there is easily applicable to DF49 as well. The results table contains both tested profiles and profiles we recommend to test one of the SNPs. The intention is to update it at least every two weeks and when there are new developments, such as Z2961, more often.

Please note the page is produced by the FT-DNA DF49 and Subgroups Project; we have no intention of getting in the way of the FT-DNA M222 project and we therefore only list those M222+ who have also tested DF23+ explicitly. To help people decide whether to test any of the new (Geno2) SNPs downstream of M222, we've added all negatives there as well for the time being.

See www.L257.org; select Y-DNA Profiles DF49+ in the menu on the left. Any serious/helpful comments are welcome !!

Have fun !!

Dubhthach
04-25-2013, 02:00 PM
It would be interesting to see verify if N26284 (Leister) is Z2961+, he has a M222- result but clusters quite close to the M222+ folks (on Alex Williamson tree anyways)

-Paul
(DF41+)

Peter M
04-25-2013, 02:56 PM
I guess it would be interesting as well to see all continental DF23+ (4xFrance, 1x Italy) test Z2261) that would possibly give a next, although vague due to the low numbers, indication of the route of the DF49 people to the British Isles.

TigerMW
04-25-2013, 06:00 PM
I agree and think that DF49, itself, just need broader exploration. It has got to be quite old and I can hardly find an STR off-modal that would indicate testing for DF49. To me, this is just like Z251 and still needs a lot of exploration.

I'm just wondering out loud here but it would be cool if we could a concentration of DF49* somewhere on the continent. Identification of a location could help support (or not) if Jean or Paul's theories.

Peter M
04-25-2013, 06:38 PM
I agree and think that DF49, itself, just need broader exploration. It has got to be quite old and I can hardly find an STR off-modal that would indicate testing for DF49. To me, this is just like Z251 and still needs a lot of exploration.

I'm just wondering out loud here but it would be cool if we could a concentration of DF49* somewhere on the continent. Identification of a location could help support (or not) if Jean or Paul's theories.

If you look at the DF49 results web page (see post #2 above), you'll find a number of clusters that predict DF49-ishness and if we work a little harder, we'll find a few more. And then we have all near-miss M222's. And don't forget the group of DF13's in which DF49+'s will turn out to hide, if they only bothered to test. My problem is not finding the patterns but getting the people carrying those patterns to order a DF49 or DF23 (or now Z2961) test.

TigerMW
04-25-2013, 10:30 PM
If you look at the DF49 results web page (see post #2 above), you'll find a number of clusters that predict DF49-ishness and if we work a little harder, we'll find a few more. And then we have all near-miss M222's. And don't forget the group of DF13's in which DF49+'s will turn out to hide, if they only bothered to test. My problem is not finding the patterns but getting the people carrying those patterns to order a DF49 or DF23 (or now Z2961) test.

Yes, there are some STR signature patterns. I was just trying to point out they are varied enough that DF49's ancestral haplotype could be essentially DF13's or L21's. This means anyone out there that is negative for the other subclades could have it. These are the ones you comment about, " the group of DF13's in which DF49+'s will turn out to hide."

Peter M
04-30-2013, 11:46 AM
Just wanted to get DF49 and Subclades on the board. The newest development is Z2961 which is between DF23 and M222. So far, we have one DF23 (Kelly) positive for Z2961 and one DF23 (Kehoe-me) negative for Z2961. I believe there may be five results pending.

Thanks, Miles Kehoe #97610

Looking at the DF49/DF23+ results, I came across something that looks a bit like a new DF23+ Z2961- cluster with DYS565=11, DYS487=14, DYS534=14, DYS413a=22, DYS456=16, DYS449=30, DYS389II=30. The first profiles are (the last two are a bit further away and there might well be others):


97610-FSH3F-Kehoe (Ireland; DF23+; Z2961-; M222-)
N46295-H8G4P-Bonnet (Italy; DF23+; M222-)
164101-MYXKS-Dougherty (no SNP tests visible)
165344-7YQ33-Greenlee (Scotland; no SNP tests)
18917-R8N3D-Brun (France; DF23+; M222-)
161264-8PX3W-Johnson (L21+; M222-)


Has this ever been discussed somewhere as a possible cluster (Travelling Salesman Cluster :)) ? Any opinions ??

BTW, to simplify studying these profiles, I've put them all in consecutive rows in the DF49 Result Sheet (http://L257.groenebeverbv.nl/index.php/test-results-families/df49) (somewhere halfway down the page; search for Miles' kit# "97610" using "find on page" in your browser).

MacEochaidh
05-01-2013, 09:29 PM
Looking at the DF49/DF23+ results, I came across something that looks a bit like a new DF23+ Z2961- cluster with DYS565=11, DYS487=14, DYS534=14, DYS413a=22, DYS456=16, DYS449=30, DYS389II=30. The first profiles are (the last two are a bit further away and there might well be others):


97610-FSH3F-Kehoe (Ireland; DF23+; Z2961-; M222-)
N46295-H8G4P-Bonnet (Italy; DF23+; M222-)
164101-MYXKS-Dougherty (no SNP tests visible)
165344-7YQ33-Greenlee (Scotland; no SNP tests)
18917-R8N3D-Brun (France; DF23+; M222-)
161264-8PX3W-Johnson (L21+; M222-)


Has this ever been discussed somewhere as a possible cluster (Travelling Salesman Cluster :)) ? Any opinions ??

BTW, to simplify studying these profiles, I've put them all in consecutive rows in the DF49 Result Sheet (http://L257.groenebeverbv.nl/index.php/test-results-families/df49) (somewhere halfway down the page; search for Miles' kit# "97610" using "find on page" in your browser).

Thanks, Peter. Yes, I'm familiar with my connection with Dougherty, Greenlee, and Bonnet. The problem is that Dougherty (Ireland), Greenlee (Scotland) and I (Ireland), don't match in location with Bonnet (Italy). Bonnet (Perry) is adopted, but swears that his aunt has traced the family back to the 13th Century, or something. As it stands now, because of Bonnet and Brun (France), this set is considered Continental.

Thanks again, Miles

TigerMW
05-01-2013, 11:09 PM
Looking at the DF49/DF23+ results, I came across something that looks a bit like a new DF23+ Z2961- cluster with DYS565=11, DYS487=14, DYS534=14, DYS413a=22, DYS456=16, DYS449=30, DYS389II=30. The first profiles are (the last two are a bit further away and there might well be others):

97610-FSH3F-Kehoe (Ireland; DF23+; Z2961-; M222-)
N46295-H8G4P-Bonnet (Italy; DF23+; M222-)
164101-MYXKS-Dougherty (no SNP tests visible)
165344-7YQ33-Greenlee (Scotland; no SNP tests)
18917-R8N3D-Brun (France; DF23+; M222-)
161264-8PX3W-Johnson (L21+; M222-)

[/LIST]
Has this ever been discussed somewhere as a possible cluster (Travelling Salesman Cluster :)) ? Any opinions ??

BTW, to simplify studying these profiles, I've put them all in consecutive rows in the DF49 Result Sheet (http://L257.groenebeverbv.nl/index.php/test-results-families/df49) (somewhere halfway down the page; search for Miles' kit# "97610" using "find on page" in your browser).

I agree with you. I've been tracking a variety in the big L21 spreadsheet that includes these guys. I call them variety "49-23*-11-A". I use to have a "B" version to but I think that fell through (not a real cluster.) The markers I've been using to differentiate them are 413a<=22 565=11 481>=23 & 487=14. 487 is pretty slow so I think these guys are really a subclade. It looks like they need to test for DF23 and Z2961.

fN46295 Bonnet R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23 DF23+ M222-
f18917 Brun R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23 DF23+ M222- L144-
f164101 Dougherty zzL21suspect
f165344 Greenlee zzL21suspect
f161264 Johnston R1b-P312>L21 L21+
f97610 Kehoe R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23* DF23+ Z290+ Z2961- M222- 3c1g

Mike26
05-02-2013, 12:14 AM
Thanks, Peter. Yes, I'm familiar with my connection with Dougherty, Greenlee, and Bonnet. The problem is that Dougherty (Ireland), Greenlee (Scotland) and I (Ireland), don't match in location with Bonnet (Italy). Bonnet (Perry) is adopted, but swears that his aunt has traced the family back to the 13th Century, or something. As it stands now, because of Bonnet and Brun (France), this set is considered Continental.

Thanks again, Miles

Technically, there are 5 people with Continental ancestors.

Regards,

Mike Hannan

Peter M
05-02-2013, 11:35 AM
Thanks, Peter. Yes, I'm familiar with my connection with Dougherty, Greenlee, and Bonnet. The problem is that Dougherty (Ireland), Greenlee (Scotland) and I (Ireland), don't match in location with Bonnet (Italy). Bonnet (Perry) is adopted, but swears that his aunt has traced the family back to the 13th Century, or something. As it stands now, because of Bonnet and Brun (France), this set is considered Continental.

Thanks again, Miles

Miles, how do you want it to be called ? Continental Cluster ?? Kehoe Cluster ??

Peter M
05-02-2013, 11:38 AM
I agree with you. I've been tracking a variety in the big L21 spreadsheet that includes these guys. I call them variety "49-23*-11-A". I use to have a "B" version to but I think that fell through (not a real cluster.) The markers I've been using to differentiate them are 413a<=22 565=11 481>=23 & 487=14. 487 is pretty slow so I think these guys are really a subclade. It looks like they need to test for DF23 and Z2961.

fN46295 Bonnet R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23 DF23+ M222-
f18917 Brun R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23 DF23+ M222- L144-
f164101 Dougherty zzL21suspect
f165344 Greenlee zzL21suspect
f161264 Johnston R1b-P312>L21 L21+
f97610 Kehoe R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23* DF23+ Z290+ Z2961- M222- 3c1g

I guess, if we call this group a cluster, then it doesn't make much sense to test ALL of them for both DF23 (most likely positive) and Z2961 (most likely negative). It might make a lot more sense to see where in the tree the other Z29xx SNPs turn out to be and to reserve a little testing budget with these people for the SNPs that turn out to be interesting in that set.

MacEochaidh
05-02-2013, 03:15 PM
I like the number identifications Mike W comes up with. This cluster seemed a bit like the Ui Maine cluster (565=11), but Ui Maine seems to be Z2961+

trainor
05-02-2013, 08:16 PM
I'm DF23+ and R-DF23* and just tested Z2961+ (trainor #159039), so now I'm R-Z2961* or R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a* according to the 2013 ISOGG Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree Version 8.44 (22-April-2013). I'm M222-, so I know I'm not R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1...

douglas


Just wanted to get DF49 and Subclades on the board. The newest development is Z2961 which is between DF23 and M222. So far, we have one DF23 (Kelly) positive for Z2961 and one DF23 (Kehoe-me) negative for Z2961. I believe there may be five results pending.

Thanks, Miles Kehoe #97610

Peter M
05-06-2013, 11:08 PM
I like the number identifications Mike W comes up with. This cluster seemed a bit like the Ui Maine cluster (565=11), but Ui Maine seems to be Z2961+

A number identification "old style" for your cluster would be something like "25-30-30-10-16-16-20-13-22-14-24-14-11" (hoping not to have made a typo somewhere). I don't think anybody would consider that a a particularly clear and friendly name, considering how the other clusters would be named: all these names would be indistinguishable.

One other problem of using the same name (-structure) is that it would suggest that we are using the same clusters as Mike W, while we are currently not. I'm afraid copying another schema of names would be highly confusing. We are trying to find a somewhat higher number of smaller, or sharper-defined, clusters to ease finding the structure of DF23.

Peter M
05-06-2013, 11:15 PM
I'm DF23+ and R-DF23* and just tested Z2961+ (trainor #159039), so now I'm R-Z2961* or R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a* according to the 2013 ISOGG Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree Version 8.44 (22-April-2013). I'm M222-, so I know I'm not R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1...

douglas

Does that mean your cluster (currently Kelly/Trainor/Madden?; presumably more to be found) should be named "Ui Maine" ?

Would you be so kind as to explain to a simple Dutchman how to pronounce that ? (if you could explain it here for the average Brit, that would be just as fine; they will demonstrate it to me :)). A few words explaining what it refers to and why it characterises your cluster would be great as well (but less urgent).

TigerMW
05-06-2013, 11:28 PM
... One other problem of using the same name (-structure) is that it would suggest that we are using the same clusters as Mike W, while we are currently not. I'm afraid copying another schema of names would be highly confusing. We are trying to find a somewhat higher number of smaller, or sharper-defined, clusters to ease finding the structure of DF23.

I ask for feedback on those variety STR signatures and split them, correct them, etc. all the time. Its great do your own analysis and use any naming scheme you want, but I would still like the feedback on how to split these varieties so I can make the spreadsheet as correct as possible for something that is speculative. I've got over 500 varieties defined for L21 as it is so what's a few more.

Ultimately I merge these with other R1b files so an R1b predicted person can do some comparisons at 67 markers and then have some rational basis for making SNP testing decisions.

Dubhthach
05-06-2013, 11:54 PM
Does that mean your cluster (currently Kelly/Trainor/Madden?; presumably more to be found) should be named "Ui Maine" ?

Would you be so kind as to explain to a simple Dutchman how to pronounce that ? (if you could explain it here for the average Brit, that would be just as fine; they will demonstrate it to me :)). A few words explaining what it refers to and why it characterises your cluster would be great as well (but less urgent).

In Irish when you have a vowel diagraph if one of the vowels is long then that is the pronunced one
eg. Uí = í (ii) -- in english due to medieval vowel shift this is written as ee, in Dutch ee sounds same as Irish é in comparison

Anyways I got a native speaker to pronunce Uí Mhaine on Forvo:

http://www.forvo.com/word/u%C3%AD_mh%C3%A1ine/

The purported ancestor is "Máine Mór" (Mór = Big -- literally Great)
http://www.forvo.com/word/m%C3%A1ine_m%C3%B3r/

Irish like other insular Celtic languages has a feature known as "initial mutations" under certain gramatical situations the initial consonant will mutate in sound. This is written by appending a "h" to the consonant. In this case the "M" sound shifts to a "W" or a "V" (depending on dialect). I
In old Irish (600-1000AD) this wasn't generally written, so as a result you would see spelling without the "mutation" sign. In later script an overdot was used.

With overdots my username looks like the following:
421

When it comes to Irish surnames, you either have "Mac ..." (son of ...) or "Ó ...." (grandson/descendant of ...)

In Old/Middle stages of language (basically up to 1300) Ó was written as "Ua", Uí thus implies a "plural" (eg. descendants) and would be used with regards to families.

Clann Uí Dhubhaigh == "Children of Dubhthach" == "The Duffy family"

The actual meaning of Clann in Irish is literally ones "children" as oppose to broader concept of family (Fine) or kindred (Cineal).

With regards to Dutch once I figured out that the long vowels (ee etc.) were pronunced same as in Irish I found it lot easier to pronunce names like Leeuwarden and Beetsterzwaag. That and Irish has a hard-g sound like Dutch uses in names like Groningen.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Peter M
05-08-2013, 04:24 PM
I ask for feedback on those variety STR signatures and split them, correct them, etc. all the time. Its great do your own analysis and use any naming scheme you want, but I would still like the feedback on how to split these varieties so I can make the spreadsheet as correct as possible for something that is speculative. I've got over 500 varieties defined for L21 as it is so what's a few more.

Ultimately I merge these with other R1b files so an R1b predicted person can do some comparisons at 67 markers and then have some rational basis for making SNP testing decisions.

The clusters we're using are on the DF49 result page on www.L257.org, so you can easily get them there. Not all clusters are there at the moment (we have clusters defined for all DF23+ M222- profiles); the others will be added shortly and then we will add the cluster signatures as well.

Dubhthach
06-18-2013, 09:04 AM
Another Uí Maine surname just came back as Z2961+, specifically Madden (160027), his result can be seen in the Ireland Project.

Here's the relevant extract from Woulfe's 1923 book

Ó MADÁIN—I—O Maddane, O Madden, Madden; 'descendant of Madadhán' (diminutive of madadh, a dog); older form Ó Madadháin, now generally Ó Madaidhín, which see, with variants Ó Madaidh and Ó Madagáin, which see; the name of a distinguished branch of the Ui Maine in Co. Galway, who derive their descent from Madadhán (slain in 1008), who was son of Gadhra Mor, chief of Ui Maine from 1014 to 1027, and are of the same stock as the O'Kellys, with whom they originally formed one clan—the Ui Maine. About the middle of the 11th century, Siol nAnmchadha, a sub-division of the Ui Maine, became independent, and from that period down to the middle of the 17th century the chieftaincy of Siol nAnmchadha continued in almost unbroken succession in the family of O'Madden. The clan-lands, which in accordance with Irish usage were named from the clan, comprised the barony of Longford, in the south-east of Co. Galway, and the parish of Lusnagh, on the other side of the Shannon, in the present Offaly. Many distinguished chiefs of the name are mentioned in the Irish annals. In 1612, Donal O'Madden, 'captain of his nation,' settled his manor and castle of Longford and all his other estates in Co. Galway on his son and heir, Anmchadh, or Ambrose, O'Madden, in tail male. Ambrose died in 1637, and was succeeded by his son, John O'Madden. John's property was confiscated after the Cromwellian wars, but was in part restored in 1677 by grant under the Act of Settlement. Five of the name were attainted in 1691. The O'Maddens of Co. Antrim (formerly called O Maddegane) are probably a distinct family. On the other hand, there is reason to believe that the Anglo-Irish family of Madden, formerly of Baggotrath, near Dublin, is a branch of the O'Maddens of Siol nAnmchadha.

---
Ó MADAIDHÍN—I—O Maddine, O Madden, Madden; 'descendant of Madaidhín' (diminutive of 'madadh', a dog); a variant of Ó Madáin, which see. This seems to have been always the popular form of the name, and is at the present day almost universal in the spoken language of Connacht.
---

SIOL ANMCHADHA, seed of Anmchadh, a branch of the Ui Maine (which see), descended from Anmchadh, the eighth in descent from Maine Mor, ancestor of the Ui Maine.

Dubhthach
07-02-2013, 01:06 PM
I see Andy Grierson has posted the following on the M222 list. Interesting news:



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Andy Grierson <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 1:23 PM
Subject: [R-M222] Discovery and validation of a new branch below M222
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>


Discovery and validation of a new branch below M222

As some of you know we have been working with public genome data for some time. I am pleased to report the identification of a new branch below M222. We have identified two novel variants shared by samples from the 1,000 genomes project and the personal genome project, namely NA20318 and hu2E413D.

The shared variants are defined as:
DF85, a C>A mutation at position 23334448
DF97, a G>A mutation at position 22631679

Testing anonymous samples, I have determined that DF85 is above DF97 in the phylogenetic tree. i.e we have men who are DF85+ DF97- but not the other way around.

-M222
--DF85
---DF97

Since the samples are anonymous I have no indication which M222 men may be positive for these markers. All I know for sure is that I am negative (ysearch 7QEWC)

Primer details have been forwarded to the relevant consumer testing companies.

I should point out that we do not benefit financially from consumer SNP testing. All of this research is made possible by generous donations. Should you wish to support our efforts please visit:
https://www.justgiving.com/DNAforum
R1b1c7 Research and Links:

http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
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dartraighe
07-02-2013, 01:15 PM
This is good news.We are getting closer to finding out the defining SNP of Niall of the Nine Hostages.

Aidan Kelly
07-02-2013, 03:04 PM
My test results for the other M222+ proximate Z series SNPs were posted last
week: all negative (other than Z2961+).

Therefore I am: L21+, DF13+, DF49+, DF23+, Z2961+ and now confirmed negative for
M222-, Z2988-, Z2977-, Z2973-, Z2972-, Z2970-, Z2964-, Z2963-, Z2962-, Z2955-.

In any case, is there any information about the relative order/age of these
SNPs?

regards Aidan

Dubhthach
07-02-2013, 04:07 PM
My test results for the other M222+ proximate Z series SNPs were posted last
week: all negative (other than Z2961+).

Therefore I am: L21+, DF13+, DF49+, DF23+, Z2961+ and now confirmed negative for
M222-, Z2988-, Z2977-, Z2973-, Z2972-, Z2970-, Z2964-, Z2963-, Z2962-, Z2955-.

In any case, is there any information about the relative order/age of these
SNPs?

regards Aidan

At the moment these SNP's are so new that little is known about their ordering. Any M222+ who have tested have tested positive for all of them. The fact that you tested Z2961+ confirmed that this was above the rest of them int he phylogeny (that and at least one other DF23+ testing Z2961-)

dartraighe
07-02-2013, 08:41 PM
The Semargl website has good maps of DF23 etc.

TigerMW
07-02-2013, 09:16 PM
I think this is really significant, at least potentially.


Discovery and validation of a new branch below M222

As some of you know we have been working with public genome data for some time. I am pleased to report the identification of a new branch below M222. We have identified two novel variants shared by samples from the 1,000 genomes project and the personal genome project, namely NA20318 and hu2E413D.

The shared variants are defined as:
DF85, a C>A mutation at position 23334448
DF97, a G>A mutation at position 22631679

Testing anonymous samples, I have determined that DF85 is above DF97 in the phylogenetic tree. i.e we have men who are DF85+ DF97- but not the other way around.

-M222
--DF85
---DF97

Since the samples are anonymous I have no indication which M222 men may be positive for these markers. All I know for sure is that I am negative (ysearch 7QEWC)

Primer details have been forwarded to the relevant consumer testing companies. http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DNA-R1B1C7/2013-07/1372767795


DF85 was positive in 4/16 M222+ samples
DF97 was positive in 2/4 DF85+ samples
So pretty encouraging, but I can't be certain how representative the sample
is. http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DNA-R1B1C7/2013-07/1372784855

There are a lot of SNPs found under M222 that have not been sorted out yet, but what caught my eye was 4/16 M222+ were DF85+. If anything near 25% of M222 ends up being DF85+, that's big. M222 is a behemoth of a subclade. :) I like to call DF13 the big Kahuna of L21, but then it is only fair to call M222 a behemoth.

jdean
07-03-2013, 09:35 AM
I think this is really significant, at least potentially.


I'm sure it will, Andy is able to investigate SNPs he discovers before bringing them to the attention of the rest of us.

I tried interesting the M222 admin team in Andy's current project when he started the crowd fundraising but couldn't convince them it wasn't related to the claims of M222 splitting SNPs in Geno2

Hopefully this will encourage more donations to the project, it's been stuck at 58% for a month now, this research is going to benefit all of us.

laurie
07-22-2013, 11:53 AM
I too am Z2961+ and M222-. I have tests pending for Z2962, Z2963 and Z2964 in batch 522. I have also just sent off my son's sample to Geno 2.0.

My kit is N108400 surname is Joyce which is Irish but Welsh Norman before that.

Peter M
08-04-2013, 01:46 PM
My test results for the other M222+ proximate Z series SNPs were posted last
week: all negative (other than Z2961+).

Therefore I am: L21+, DF13+, DF49+, DF23+, Z2961+ and now confirmed negative for
M222-, Z2988-, Z2977-, Z2973-, Z2972-, Z2970-, Z2964-, Z2963-, Z2962-, Z2955-.

In any case, is there any information about the relative order/age of these
SNPs?

regards Aidan

The FT-DNA DF49 and Subgroups Project keeps the score on www.L257.org; select DF49 in the menu on the left. If anybody is interested, we could share the geo map with the pins coloured according to the subgroups as well.

Results are updated on a bi-weekly basis at the moment and new SNPs will be added when the first testing results for them come back from the lab.

Dubhthach
08-14-2013, 11:11 AM
New DF49+/DF23- today in the Ireland project:
29594 O'Dea

He has the following GD's form other DF49+/DF23- in the project @67 markers


218322 - McCabe = 14
183161 - Hopkings = 17
134461 - Byrne = 18
213636 - Murray = 20
59601 - Spier = 21
216031 - McElrea = 26

TigerMW
08-14-2013, 12:14 PM
New DF49+/DF23- today in the Ireland project:
29594 O'Dea

He has the following GD's form other DF49+/DF23- in the project @67 markers


218322 - McCabe = 14
183161 - Hopkings = 17
134461 - Byrne = 18
213636 - Murray = 20
59601 - Spier = 21
216031 - McElrea = 26

Thanks, Paul.

I had f29594 O'Dea as variety 49*-2526-A
390>=25 447>=26 & 389b>=17 {DF49*}

I think these other folks are good suspects for DF49* since I put them in the same variety.

fB3231 Allison R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49* DF49+ DF23- 49*-2526-A Scotland
f142534 Allison R1b-P312>L21 L21+ M222- 49*-2526-A zzCountry
f161801 Allison zzL21suspect 49*-2526-A zzCountry
f42141 Allison zzL21suspect 49*-2526-A zzCountry
f135086 Brooks R1b-P312>L21 L21+ M222- L144- 49*-2526-A zzCountry
f169888 Butler zzL21suspect 49*-2526-A zzCountry
f178939 Butler zzL21suspect 49*-2526-A zzCountry
f75847 Butler zzL21suspect 49*-2526-A zzCountry
f84001 Butler zzL21suspect 49*-2526-A zzCountry
f29594 O'Dea R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49 DF49+ 49*-2526-A zzCountry
f152639 Strother R1b-P312>L21 L21+ 49*-2526-A zzCountry

I put the Hopkins/McCabe folks in a brother variety I call 49*-2526-B
390>=25 447>=26 & 455=12 442=11 {DF49* L302}

fN105696 Boland zzL21suspect 49*-2526-B Ireland
f134461 Byrne R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49* DF49+ DF23- 49*-2526-B Ireland
f139489 Cabe R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49 DF49+ M222- 49*-2526-B Ireland
f140524 Cain R1b-P312>L21 L21+ M222- 49*-2526-B Scotland
f86111 Denny zzL21suspect 49*-2526-B Scotland
f131637 Gillespie R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49* DF49+ DF23- 49*-2526-B zzCountry
f188270 Gillespie R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49* DF49+ DF23- L302- 49*-2526-B zzCountry
f122765 Greaves R1b-P312>L21 L21+ L302+ L319.1+ L302+ L319+ 49*-2526-B zzCountry
f145676 Hamilton R1b-P312>L21 L21+ M222- 49*-2526-B Ireland
f129036 Harrison R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49* DF49+ DF23- M222- L144- L195- L88+L130- L302- L69- 49*-2526-B England
f213812 Hopkins R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49 DF49+ L302+ 49*-2526-B Ireland
f183161 Hopkins R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49* DF49+ DF23- M222- L302+ L319+ 49*-2526-B Ireland
f33932 Hopkins R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49* DF49+ DF23- M222- L69- L144- L195- L564- L302+ L319+L130- 49*-2526-B Ireland
f31795 Hopkins R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49* DF49+ DF23- M222- L302+ L319+ 49*-2526-B Ireland
f232424 Hopkins R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49 DF49+ L302+ 49*-2526-B Ireland
f19499 Hopkins R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49* DF49+ DF23- L302- 49*-2526-B zzCountry
f225253 McCabe zzL21suspect 49*-2526-B Ireland
f153311 McCabe zzL21suspect 49*-2526-B Ireland
fN26764 McCabe zzL21suspect 49*-2526-B Ireland
f127552 McCabe R1b-P312>L21 L21+ 49*-2526-B Ireland
f218322 McCabe R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49* DF49+ DF23- L302- L319- 49*-2526-B Ireland
f827 McCabe R1b-P312>L21 L21+ 49*-2526-B Ireland
f148651 McCabe R1b-P312>L21 L21+ 49*-2526-B Ireland
f95179 McManus zzL21suspect 49*-2526-B Ireland
f137198 McManus/Henry R1b-P312>L21 L21+ 49*-2526-B zzCountry
f216281 zzzUnknown zzL21suspect 49*-2526-B zzCountry

jdean
08-14-2013, 01:18 PM
We also had a Johnson (kit no. 127844) the other day, he's a match for Officer in the DF49 project.

Officer was the last 'out of the blue' DF49* result and that was back in January !!!

We could really do with more speculative testing for this SNP.

TigerMW
08-14-2013, 01:43 PM
We also had a Johnson (kit no. 127844) the other day, he's a match for Officer in the DF49 project.

Officer was the last 'out of the blue' DF49* result and that was back in January !!!

We could really do with more speculative testing for this SNP.

Are DF49 and DF23 in Geno 2?

I agree, DF49 is undertested. I still think DF13 is undertested too. I think Geno 2 to go with a plethora of SNPs and no formal updating by FTDNA of the haplotree are injecting some "paralysis" into the SNP exploration. I guess I should add expected updates to WTY coverage and FullGenomes.com.

jdean
08-14-2013, 01:51 PM
Are DF49 and DF23 in Geno 2?

I agree, DF49 is undertested. I still think DF13 is undertested too. I think Geno 2 to go with a plethora of SNPs and no formal updating by FTDNA of the haplotree are injecting some "paralysis" into the SNP exploration. I guess I should add expected updates to WTY coverage and FullGenomes.com.

DF23 is in Geno2 but DF49 missed the boat unfortunately.

Saying that we aren’t exactly picking up many members for DF23* via Geno2 anyway, as you say the fact that FTDNA haven’t updated the tree in how long ? probably doesn’t help.

If FTDNA aren’t careful they'll be into conference season and wanting to make promises for 2014 without having fulfilled any (?) of their previous commitments : )_

Dubhthach
08-14-2013, 03:13 PM
Interesting M222+ result today. I had figured it would be the case.

Hynes (B1235) -- 37 markers

Unlike most M222+ this kit has very few matches within the standard FTDNA match "windows"

37 STR's: 0 Matches
25 STR's: 1 Match
12 STR's: 4 Matches


When I look at the GD report in Ireland project the closest match is a M222+ at GD of 7 (at 37 markers). What's interesting of course is that Hynes/Hinds is a South Galway surname connected to the "Uí Fhiacrach Aidhne". The "Uí Fhiachrach" (there are two branches) are descended from Fiachrae the half-brother of Niall -- if we are to believe the "saga's".

-Paul
(DF41+)

jdean
08-15-2013, 12:18 PM
Well it was a good night for DF49 !!

A new DF49 plus who's a good candidate for DF23 due to his high value at DYS481, and few Z2961 results : )_

Dubhthach
08-15-2013, 01:48 PM
Seems that DF85 is now available for order. It would be intersting if a range of M222+ would order it. It's upstream of DF97.
(DF49 -> DF23 -> Z2961 -> M222 -> DF85 -> DF97)

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
08-15-2013, 03:50 PM
Three orders for DF85 so far today in Ireland project these are for:


30771 -- Burns
201623 -- Callahan
232911 -- MacSteaphan (Stevenson)

jdean
08-15-2013, 03:54 PM
Hope FTDNA don't hang about with the first batch, this should be very interesting !!!

David Mc
08-18-2013, 11:35 AM
Does anyone have any info on the Finnish DF49*, FTDNA kit # 156711? At a (very) quick glance, his markers are not incredibly dissimilar to the McElrea (or perhaps Stedman) markers... He doesn't seem to be in the DF49 project.

rms2
08-18-2013, 11:41 AM
Does anyone have any info on the Finnish DF49*, FTDNA kit # 156711? At a (very) quick glance, his markers are not incredibly dissimilar to the McElrea (or perhaps Stedman) markers... He doesn't seem to be in the DF49 project.

He's not in the R-L21 Plus Project, either, unfortunately. I see him in the Finland Project, but are you sure that is the right kit number? The SNP report function shows only an M269 prediction for that kit.

jdean
08-18-2013, 12:42 PM
Does anyone have any info on the Finnish DF49*, FTDNA kit # 156711? At a (very) quick glance, his markers are not incredibly dissimilar to the McElrea (or perhaps Stedman) markers... He doesn't seem to be in the DF49 project.

Oh my I hope you're right, I emailed the Finnish project about him back in May but didn't get a reply. We were thinking of writing to them in Finnish to see if that helped.

He was identified as a DF49 candidate based on a similarity with McElrea but it wasn't a strong prediction.

David Mc
08-18-2013, 09:54 PM
Hi Rich,

I noticed the M269 prediction as well. He was listed as DF49 here, which is what caught my eye: http://l257.groenebeverbv.nl/index.php/test-results-families/df49

David Mc
08-18-2013, 10:00 PM
Hi jdean,

Thanks for the background info... the website I linked to above listed him as "tested." So, unless something has happened there recently, he is just a predicted DF49. It would be fascintating if he was both DF49 and a match for McElrea... although I don't know what that would mean, unless his surname or family tree mark him as coming from immigrant stock to Finland. I hope you get a response-- even a late one.

jdean
08-18-2013, 10:56 PM
Hi Rich,

I noticed the M269 prediction as well. He was listed as DF49 here, which is what caught my eye: http://l257.groenebeverbv.nl/index.php/test-results-families/df49

No that's just our prediction, I'll see about making that clearer.

Oh well back to learning Finnic I suppose : )_

David Mc
08-18-2013, 11:55 PM
I would be surprised if none of the administrators there speak English. My wife is from Norway (which isn't Finland, I know), and the real challenge in learning Norwegian for me, on visits, is precisely that everyone over there speaks English with enough fluency that it's too easy for us all to revert to English. Maybe just a few more attempts will do. Goodness knows I've missed responding to emails that I intended to but got filed away too soon.

I notice he is both in the Finland DNA Project and (oddly?) in the Hebrew Finnish Project. I don't know if they share an administrator or not...

Thanks for the work you do on our behalf.

David Mc
08-19-2013, 04:25 AM
I wrote above "I don't know what that would mean," in reference to a Finn with McElrea-like markers. Having done a bit of reading on the subject this evening, it seems that a great number of Scots (up to thirty thousand) offered their swords to the Swedish crown during the Thirty Years War. A great number remained, tying themselves to the Oldenburg and Vasa dynasties. over the course of the next two hundred years a number of Scots served as military governors in Sweden and Finland (which was a Swedish possession at the time). This ties in to another discussion on another thread, as well, I think. Introducing thirty thousand men into a region will effect the genetic inheritance of that region one way or another.

jdean
08-19-2013, 10:02 AM
I would be surprised if none of the administrators there speak English. My wife is from Norway (which isn't Finland, I know), and the real challenge in learning Norwegian for me, on visits, is precisely that everyone over there speaks English with enough fluency that it's too easy for us all to revert to English. Maybe just a few more attempts will do. Goodness knows I've missed responding to emails that I intended to but got filed away too soon.

I notice he is both in the Finland DNA Project and (oddly?) in the Hebrew Finnish Project. I don't know if they share an administrator or not...

Thanks for the work you do on our behalf.

Almost definitely, but it would probably help draw there attention to the email. Admins who ignore requests for help contacting potential candidates are my bane.

To be fair though I've only sent one email to this project so should probably try at least one more time before getting too disheartened.

Dubhthach
08-19-2013, 10:20 AM
We also had a Johnson (kit no. 127844) the other day, he's a match for Officer in the DF49 project.

Officer was the last 'out of the blue' DF49* result and that was back in January !!!

We could really do with more speculative testing for this SNP.

I emailed Johnson via the Ireland Project and suggested that he test for DF23 given that he's DF49+. He's placed an order, so given that he matches with Officer he's probably another DF49*.

-Paul
(DF41+)

jdean
08-19-2013, 03:09 PM
That's good news, cheers Paul

To be honest I wasn't going to press Johnson about DF23 since he was already heavily predicted to be DF49+, DF23- before he tested for DF49, that's why I contacted him in the first place, but it's definitely better to make sure.

Johnson agreed to join the DF49 project today under condition I corrected a grammatical error on the project's website, which I thought a fair exchange : )_

Dubhthach
08-20-2013, 12:57 PM
N1871 (Warren) who is DF23+/M222- has ordered Z2961 after it been suggested to him. He has a GD of 12 (Joyce), 14 (Madden) and 16 (Kelly) from the three Z2961+ (m222-) in the Ireland project.

-Paul
(DF41+)

jdean
08-20-2013, 04:42 PM
N1871 (Warren) who is DF23+/M222- has ordered Z2961 after it been suggested to him. He has a GD of 12 (Joyce), 14 (Madden) and 16 (Kelly) from the three Z2961+ (m222-) in the Ireland project.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Cheers Paul, third time lucky !!

As it happens I was thinking last night that I ought send another email to the Z2961 ? folk, so that's one less email for me : )_

It would be good to see Leister test for one of the other Z29** SNPs as well, I've a funny feeling he's going to end up in his own group.

Dubhthach
08-22-2013, 02:04 PM
I was looking at the tree generated by Morley as mentioned by Mark in this post:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?997-L21*-(the-real-deal)-(L21-DF13-DF63-)&p=12065&viewfull=1#post12065

What's interesting is that Z2973 is listed as potential subclade of M222 -- as oppose to be equivalent. This also appears to be case with draft tree on FTDNA:
http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813285

I see in M222 project at least 4 men with Z2973+ results, three of them are Geno 2.0, there are other Geno 2.0 results which don't have this SNP. Is this due to no-calls or are they actually negative for it?

-Paul
(DF41+)

k.o.gran
08-22-2013, 02:30 PM
I was looking at the tree generated by Morley as mentioned by Mark in this post:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?997-L21*-(the-real-deal)-(L21-DF13-DF63-)&p=12065&viewfull=1#post12065

What's interesting is that Z2973 is listed as potential subclade of M222 -- as oppose to be equivalent. This also appears to be case with draft tree on FTDNA:
http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813285

I see in M222 project at least 4 men with Z2973+ results, three of them are Geno 2.0, there are other Geno 2.0 results which don't have this SNP. Is this due to no-calls or are they actually negative for it?

-Paul
(DF41+)

I've looked at daver.info and Mike's spreadsheet. I found four Z2973+ kits. All are M222+. I found two Z2973- kits, both are DF23+, M222-. This should indicate Z2973 and M222 are phylogenetically equivalent at the moment. But I don't know what the discoverer of Z2973 knows. He might have evidence from 1000 genomes or elsewhere.

-Kai

Dubhthach
08-22-2013, 02:40 PM
I've looked at daver.info and Mike's spreadsheet. I found four Z2973+ kits. All are M222+. I found two Z2973- kits, both are DF23+, M222-. This should indicate Z2973 and M222 are phylogenetically equivalent at the moment. But I don't know what the discoverer of Z2973 knows. He might have evidence from 1000 genomes or elsewhere.

-Kai

Well there are a number of M222+ geno 2.0 kits that don't have a result for it. The question is did these kits have a no-call or are they negative for it.

-Paul
(DF41+)

jdean
08-22-2013, 02:43 PM
That's interesting, I wounder where they got that idea from ?

The Z29xx series wasn't discovered in time for Geno2 and as far as I'm aware non of those SNPs appeared on the chip under different names.

BTW Thomas has Z2973 listed as equivalent to M222 now.

Dubhthach
08-22-2013, 02:52 PM
Awh alright that make sense then, so far the only real hope in next while of splitting M222 will probably be DF85. In Ireland project alone there are 10 DF85 tests on order.

-Paul
(DF41+)

jdean
08-22-2013, 03:03 PM
Yep DF85 looks pretty exciting !!

After that there's Geno2.1 (or whatever they decide to call it) which should have the whole Z29xx series on it.

TigerMW
09-09-2013, 07:34 PM
Has anyone checked out this guy for DF23*. He has some similarities with the DF23* Hy Maine folks which also includes some Welsh folks.
f172352 Nicolle

What's interesting is he is from the Channel Islands, right off the coast of France.

EDIT: Probably a false alarm. He looks related to this guy:
51071 Nichols James Nicolle, b ~1668, Guernsey, Channel Islands R1b1a2 R-M269 M173+, M207+, M269+, M343+, P25+, M126-, M153-, M160-, M18-, M222-, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P312-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-

who is P312-.

cmorley
09-09-2013, 07:55 PM
I was looking at the tree generated by Morley as mentioned by Mark in this post:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?997-L21*-(the-real-deal)-(L21-DF13-DF63-)&p=12065&viewfull=1#post12065

What's interesting is that Z2973 is listed as potential subclade of M222 -- as oppose to be equivalent. This also appears to be case with draft tree on FTDNA:
http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813285

I see in M222 project at least 4 men with Z2973+ results, three of them are Geno 2.0, there are other Geno 2.0 results which don't have this SNP. Is this due to no-calls or are they actually negative for it?

-Paul
(DF41+)

Paul,

The August version of my experimental phylogeny was the first to include non-Geno SNPs. For non-Geno SNPs, the algorithm took an "assume it defines a new subclade until proven to be equivalent" approach.

The September version of my phylogeny (see http://ytree.morleydna.com/experimental-phylogeny) now has Z2973 at the same level as M222. The algorithm behind this version of the report is more prone to assume equivalent until proven otherwise. Borderline cases are reported: when a handful of kits are positive for an SNP but negative for an SNP previously presumed to be phyloequivalent, the unexpected negative results are recorded beside the kits in question.

Chris

jdean
09-09-2013, 08:02 PM
Has anyone checked out this guy for DF23*. He has some similarities with the DF23* Hy Maine folks which also includes some Welsh folks.
f172352 Nicolle

What's interesting is he is from the Channel Islands, right off the coast of France.

No he's not on any of my lists, however he's a pretty close match for 51071 in the French Heritage project who's P312-

TigerMW
09-09-2013, 08:21 PM
You guys are fast. Yes, Jdean, notice I edited my posting below. False alarm.

jdean
09-09-2013, 08:28 PM
You guys are fast. Yes, Jdean, notice I edited my posting below. False alarm.

Happens to me all the time : )

TigerMW
09-09-2013, 09:34 PM
Happens to me all the time : )

Well, at least I may have something useful for this subgroup today.

Let me preface this by noting I often feel like my own surname project is a desert as far as depth of testing, so any new news sounds like a voice crying out in the desert to me.

I've got a new match for the 49-2329-11-HyM variety. They have been testing DF23+ Z2961+ M222- to-date.

f230620 Joseph Aloysius Walsh, b.1881, Manchester, Greater Manchester, North West, England

The predominant surnames in this cluster are the Kelly's (Irish) and the Pugh's. The traditional cluster name has been the "Ui Maine".

Another guy who needs testing and may be just on the outside edge of this variety is:
f7066 Noble

Noble doesn't have the standard 565=11 but he matches just about everything else off-modal wise.

jdean
09-09-2013, 11:05 PM
Well, at least I may have something useful for this subgroup today.

Let me preface this by noting I often feel like my own surname project is a desert as far as depth of testing, so any new news sounds like a voice crying out in the desert to me.

I've got a new match for the 49-2329-11-HyM variety. They have been testing DF23+ Z2961+ M222- to-date.

f230620 Joseph Aloysius Walsh, b.1881, Manchester, Greater Manchester, North West, England

The predominant surnames in this cluster are the Kelly's (Irish) and the Pugh's. The traditional cluster name has been the "Ui Maine".

Another guy who needs testing and may be just on the outside edge of this variety is:
f7066 Noble

Noble doesn't have the standard 565=11 but he matches just about everything else off-modal wise.

Cheers Mike.

I've had a look at my files for this group and had him in the cluster search but not the Ysearch file.

I'm not one for making notes but I expect I was concentrating on the the clearer cluster matches at that time however I agree now that we have that group fairly well pegged it would be a good idea to reach out to the potential outliers.

Got to be said, Z2961 has been a real boon for the project, hats of to David Reynolds for discovering it and the the tenacity of so many DF23 folk to pursue this many SNPs in order to identify this nugget.

jdean
09-10-2013, 05:58 PM
Thought I'd better go over the above post as my memory can be a little hazy, all these clusters : )_

42 Ysearch messages were sent out to three suspect Z2961 clusters, out of which 13 were to the 'Ui Maine' cluster (anybody any idea what that name is supposed to mean ?)

6 of these people subsequently joined the DF49 project and three now have Z2961+ results with 1 still outstanding and two who haven’t ordered yet.

However none of those people belonged to the 'Ui Maine' group.

Sounds like I could do with doing another recruitment drive : )_

Dubhthach
09-10-2013, 07:43 PM
out of which 13 were to the 'Ui Maine' cluster (anybody any idea what that name is supposed to mean ?)


Uí Maine = "grandsons/descendants of Máine"

In Irish "Uí" implies a plural. The singular in Old/Middle Irish was Ua, this subsequently changed to Ó -- in anglised names you see this as O' -- Ua literally meant "grandson of".

Under the rules of Irish orthography if two vowels are in a cluster, and one of the two vowels is long (has an accent mark). Then only the long vowel is pronunced. Irish long-vowels are pronunced like vowels in continental european languages (unlike english). í == ee sound in english (originally ee was pronunced as "ay" in English until 14th century, it then shifted to long-i sound)

In this case the titular Máine is: Máine Mór mac Eochaidh (Máine the Great, son of Eochaidh -- Mór = large eg. Great), who led the conquest of East Galway/South Roscommon in the 4th century and creating the "Kingdom of Uí Maine". The last king of which was Feardorcha Ó Ceallaigh who died in 1611. (Ó Ceallaigh = Kelly).

In the tudor period the anglisced name of the kingdom as used in English records was "Hy Many", thence the HyM that Mike uses in his signature name.

There are two gnealogical traditions connected to the "Uí Maine" one has it that Máine Mór was a descendant of one of the three Colla's. The second later genealogical tradition had it that he was a son of Niall (of the nine hostages). What you are seeing here is genealogical fabrication for political reasons. The "Three Colla's" had been given a fabricated genealogy connecting them into the wider Dál Cuinn. What looks like to me is that as time went by the Uí Maine got "promoted" to the first division when it came to game of genealogy.

They were probably military grouping connected to wider Dál Cuinn. It's interesting of course given the prevalence of M222 among the Dál Cuinn that a Z2961+/M222- lineage would have close ties with them. The Uí Maine were probably the largest subkingdom of the province of Connacht.

Dál Cuinn == descendants of Conn eg. Connachta also known in early texts as Moccu Cuinn -- moccu is obselete term used in pagan times to basically mean tribe. (Cuinn = genitive case of Conn).

The Uí Néill (grandsons/descendants of Niall) were thus regarded as Connachta originally before becoming dominant in their own right. The three main dynasties in the province of Connacht all been descended from the three supposed half brothers of Niall (we see M222 in surnames connected to the two dynasties that survived past the 9th century).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_Maine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A1ine_M%C3%B3r
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/uimaine.htm

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
09-12-2013, 08:17 AM
N1871 (Warren) who is DF23+/M222- has ordered Z2961 after it been suggested to him. He has a GD of 12 (Joyce), 14 (Madden) and 16 (Kelly) from the three Z2961+ (m222-) in the Ireland project.

-Paul
(DF41+)

N1871 (Warren) has come back as Z2961+

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
09-12-2013, 01:41 PM
I emailed Johnson via the Ireland Project and suggested that he test for DF23 given that he's DF49+. He's placed an order, so given that he matches with Officer he's probably another DF49*.

-Paul
(DF41+)

That's confirmed Jonhson (127844) is DF23-.

--
From looking at the SNP report of the M222 project there are a total of 7 DF85 results in there. 7 DF85- and 1 DF85+. The list is the following:

DF85+

Ashley (16212) -- also DF97+



DF85-

Megonnigil (17624)
Leonard (47582)
Burns (30771) -- Paul Burns
Kelly (91704)
McKenzie (26794) -- strangley enough he has as most distant ancestor: "Stephen McKenzie b1780 TN ..... F1265p DF85p"
Knowles (127470)



It's interesting that most of the above DF85- have Irish surnames. McKenzie is mostly known as a scottish surname but can be of Irish origin, and according to Woulfe (1923) Knowles can also be of Irish origin.

-Paul

greystones22
09-12-2013, 02:38 PM
DF85+

Ashley (16212) -- also DF97+



Nice!
Glad that we are finally making progress with M222
Andy

jdean
09-12-2013, 06:13 PM
N1871 (Warren) has come back as Z2961+

-Paul
(DF41+)

There are only 4 people left in the Z2961? category now.

90660 is a pretty sure bet for Z2961 and I probably should just add him to the Z2961+ group anyway but the other three could go either way.

TigerMW
09-12-2013, 06:34 PM
... From looking at the SNP report of the M222 project there are a total of 7 DF85 results in there. 7 DF85- and 1 DF85+. The list is the following:

DF85+

Ashley (16212) -- also DF97+

l

I've got Ashley in variety 49-2329222-1112 based on an STR signature of 439=11 389i=12.

If that signature holds up, some others in 49-2329222 include:
f16212 Ashley
f22454 Ashley
f63792 Ashley
f86993 Duncan
f16113 Duncan
f229946 Duncan
f15987 Duncan
f16729 Duncan
f128567 Duncan
f84488 Duncan
f180408 Duncan
f28428 Duncan
f66454 Duncan
f22694 Duncan
f219530 Duncan
f13936 Duncan
f185039 France
f187535 France
f202785 Mann
f63915 McAninch
f146054 McConachie
f250354 McConaghy
f236057 McConaughey
fN82963 McConaughy
f204944 McConaughy
f197231 McConnaughey
f205297 McConnaughhay
f104297 McKenney
f195793 O'Neill

Dubhthach
09-28-2013, 06:59 AM
Second DF85+ showed up last night:

Lally (181933) -- MDKA Co. Roscommon in West of Ireland (Connacht). He's still awaiting his DF97 result.

Extract from Woulfe:

Ó MAOLALAIDH—I—O Mullaly, O Mullally, Mullally, Mullaly, Lally; 'descendant of Maolaladh' (speckled chief); the name of a branch of the Ui Maine in Co. Galway. They are of the same descent as the O'Neachtains, and both families originally formed one clan, called Ui Fiachrach Finn from their ancestor, Fiachra Fionn, grandson of Maine Mór, the common ancestor of all the Ui Maine. The clan lands comprised the fertile plain of Maonmhagh, lying around Loughrea, but about the time of the Anglo-Norman invasion the O'Mullallys were dispossessed by the Burkes and forced to retire to the parish of Tuam, where they settled at Tulach na dála, anglicised Tullaghnadaly, or Tolendal, four miles to the north of the town of Tuam. In the wars of the 17th century, they adhered to the Stuart cause. James Lally of Tullindaly sat as representative of Tuam in King James's Parliament of 1689. He was attainted in 1691 together with his brother, Gerald, whereupon they both retired to France. Gerald married a noble French lady, and their son and grandson, the Counts Lally de Tollendal, made the name celebrated in Europe.

jdean
09-28-2013, 09:52 AM
Second DF85+ showed up last night:

Lally (181933) -- MDKA Co. Roscommon in West of Ireland (Connacht). He's still awaiting his DF97 result.



Nice piece of news to wake up to : )

There's good separation between Lally and Ashley, I think we can look forward to DF85 taking a sizable bite out of M222 !!

David
09-29-2013, 01:22 AM
DF85 has met ISOGG requirements and is being added to the Hg R tree under R-M222.
R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1a DF85

The only result for DF97 to date is for kit 16212 (Ashley), M222+ DF85+ DF97+, so DF97 remains under investigation.


Regards,
david

rms2
09-29-2013, 12:36 PM
DF85 has met ISOGG requirements and is being added to the Hg R tree under R-M222.
R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1a DF85

The only result for DF97 to date is for kit 16212 (Ashley), M222+ DF85+ DF97+, so DF97 remains under investigation.


Regards,
david

Thanks for the heads up. I just created a new category for DF85 at the R-L21 Plus Project and deposited Ashley, kit 16212, and Lally, kit 181933, in it.

Dubhthach
10-02-2013, 09:27 PM
New DF49+ (untested for DF23 or lower) in Ireland project: McElrea (283956) tested to 67 STR's

jdean
10-02-2013, 10:26 PM
New DF49+ (untested for DF23 or lower) in Ireland project: McElrea (283956) tested to 67 STR's

Yep. He was heavily predicted though having a 4 off match @ 67 with McElrea (216031) who's DF49*

I put him in the DF49* group as soon as he joined the project, which I think was the same time as he ordered DF49

David
10-06-2013, 10:33 PM
735
Hot news from Jim Wilson today. Jim noted that initial Chomo2 results included M222+ individuals from the following backgrounds:


tested ten men with grandfathers from NE Scotland and Scottish surnames
ten men with English grandfathers and English surnames
eight men with grandfathers from NW Ireland and Uí Néill surnames
plus a few others

Jim also said S592 and some of S555-S567 may be private.

Jim went on to say:


As I said, what is quite exciting is that we can now split the M222
group up into 12 subgroups, at least eight of which are of substantial
size, having been seen in at least two unrelated individuals! Even more
interesting is the distribution across geography - I freely admit
numbers are rather small at the minute - but the S568 and possibly S588
groups look to be quite enriched for Scots and the S668 group has 4 or 8
men with grandfathers from NW Ireland and Uí Néill surnames! Could this
be a marker of Niall Noigiallach? All the Irish are derived for S661,
whereas British examples are found in both S661, S568 and in the M222*
paragroup, as yet ancestral at all subgroup markers. This could be taken
as evidence for a British origin of the marker, as some have claimed.
Again, numbers are far too low for any certainty at all, but these
markers will allow these questions to be investigated in more detail,
once large numbers have been genotyped.


For more information on Chromo2, please see:
http://www.scotlandsdna.com/demos/chromo2

Regards,
david

Dubhthach
10-06-2013, 10:45 PM
735
Hot news from Jim Wilson today. Jim noted that initial Chomo2 results included M222+ individuals from the following backgrounds:


tested ten men with grandfathers from NE Scotland and Scottish surnames
ten men with English grandfathers and English surnames
eight men with grandfathers from NW Ireland and Uí Néill surnames
plus a few others

Jim also said S592 and some of S555-S567 may be private.

Jim went on to say:


For more information on Chromo2, please see:
http://www.scotlandsdna.com/demos/chromo2

Regards,
david

I'd be curious about the 8 specific surnames that he mentions from North-West Ireland. Ideally he should try and get some Connachta surnames as well such as O'Shaughnessy (Uí Fhiacrach Aidhne), O'Dowd (Uí Fhiachrach Muaidhe), O'Connor (Uí Bhriúin Ai), Concannon (Uí Bhriúin Ai) etc.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
10-06-2013, 10:54 PM
Currently we have 12 x DF85 results outstanding in the Ireland project. Likewise there are 7 x DF97 tests pending. 6 of those are from men who are awaiting a DF85 result. The 7th is for Lally who is confirmed DF85+.

-Paul
(DF41+)

snake86413
10-07-2013, 01:48 AM
735
Hot news from Jim Wilson today. Jim noted that initial Chomo2 results included M222+ individuals from the following backgrounds:


tested ten men with grandfathers from NE Scotland and Scottish surnames
ten men with English grandfathers and English surnames
eight men with grandfathers from NW Ireland and Uí Néill surnames
plus a few others

Jim also said S592 and some of S555-S567 may be private.

Jim went on to say:


For more information on Chromo2, please see:
http://www.scotlandsdna.com/demos/chromo2

Regards,
david


Thanks, David. One of my maternal grandparent's lineages is M222+, so this is exciting news!

TigerMW
10-07-2013, 02:47 AM
I tried to update the general L21 chart to incorporate this. You can see the updated chart on the L21 phylogeny thread.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?791-R1b-L21-Phylogeny-(SNP-based-family-tree)&p=15396&viewfull=1#post15396

Does it look correct?

It looks like I need to add the S660 branch and there is more downstream of these.

snake86413
10-07-2013, 03:43 AM
I tried to update the general L21 chart to incorporate this. You can see the updated chart on the L21 phylogeny thread.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?791-R1b-L21-Phylogeny-(SNP-based-family-tree)&p=15396&viewfull=1#post15396

Does it look correct?

It looks like I need to add the S660 branch and there is more downstream of these.


From my R1b-DF49>M222+ McMurry lineage, thanks Mike. Good job!

jdean
10-07-2013, 03:25 PM
Hot news from Jim Wilson today. Jim noted that initial Chomo2 results included M222+ individuals from the following backgrounds:


tested ten men with grandfathers from NE Scotland and Scottish surnames
ten men with English grandfathers and English surnames
eight men with grandfathers from NW Ireland and Uí Néill surnames
plus a few others

Jim also said S592 and some of S555-S567 may be private.

Brilliant news David, thanks for the post


The co-ordinates of the above Little Scottish Cluster SNPs are no longer proprietary. Jim Wilson released the co-ordinates this morning. Now I'm left wondering if FTDNA will choose to make any of them testable a la carte?

Alex

Any chance Jim's released these details for his M222 SNPs as well ?

cilldara
10-07-2013, 04:58 PM
This is great news.

Even though I'm Irish, most of my closest matches on FTDNA have Scottish surnames.

I can't wait to see my results from Full Genomes!

TigerMW
10-07-2013, 06:16 PM
Hot news from Jim Wilson today.
Jim went on to say:Wilson,
"... the S568 and possibly S588 groups look to be quite enriched for Scots and the S668 group has 4 or 8 men with grandfathers from NW Ireland and Uí Néill surnames! Could this
be a marker of Niall Noigiallach? All the Irish are derived for S661, whereas British examples are found in both S661, S568 and in the M222* paragroup, as yet ancestral at all subgroup markers. This could be taken as evidence for a British origin of the marker, as some have claimed."

I take it, since M222 is the last referenced marker, Jim was referring to M222 with "a British origin of the marker". Do I have that right? He wasn't referring only to S661 or S568, was he?

David
10-07-2013, 06:53 PM
Wilson,
"... the S568 and possibly S588 groups look to be quite enriched for Scots and the S668 group has 4 or 8 men with grandfathers from NW Ireland and Uí Néill surnames! Could this
be a marker of Niall Noigiallach? All the Irish are derived for S661, whereas British examples are found in both S661, S568 and in the M222* paragroup, as yet ancestral at all subgroup markers. This could be taken as evidence for a British origin of the marker, as some have claimed."

I take it, since M222 is the last referenced marker, Jim was referring to M222 with "a British origin of the marker". Do I have that right? He wasn't referring only to S661 or S568, was he?

He had to have been referring to M222, as no one has made any claims (yet) about the origins of the newly discovered markers.

--david

RGM
10-08-2013, 08:38 AM
Is the British origin of M222 not a common belief? I thought the evidence for that was fairly convincing already.

MacUalraig
10-08-2013, 11:23 AM
Is the British origin of M222 not a common belief? I thought the evidence for that was fairly convincing already.

Many of us on the M222 forum have believed it for some time and in fact Paul Conroy put a paper out recently tracing the origin to SW England albeit based on some rather thin data. But there are some who like the old Ui Neill story put out by TCD and are still arguing the case for it.

Dubhthach
10-08-2013, 02:14 PM
Many of us on the M222 forum have believed it for some time and in fact Paul Conroy put a paper out recently tracing the origin to SW England albeit based on some rather thin data. But there are some who like the old Ui Neill story put out by TCD and are still arguing the case for it.

Of course the pseudo-history of the Dál Cuinn (Moccu Cuinn eg. Connachta) put's their ancestor Tuathal Teachtmar as been born in Britain (Alba) though conceived in Ireland.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
10-11-2013, 11:59 PM
Third confirmed DF85+: McConkey (84366), he's also confirmed as DF97-

Johnston (90660) is confirmed Z2961+ (M222-)

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
10-13-2013, 12:14 AM
Fourth confirmed DF85+

Slavens (6897)
---
Ó SLÉIBHÍN—I—O Slevine, O Slevan, Slevin, Sleavin, Sleevin, Slevan, Slavin, (?) Slamon; 'descendant of Sléibhín' (diminutive of sliabh, a mountain, a 'pet' diminutive of Donnshléibhe; the name of a branch of the Cinel Eoghain in Ulster. Giolla Chomhghaill Ó Sléibhín, chief bard of Ulster, was the messenger chosen by King Malachy to rally the forces of the North in defence of Tara against Brian Boru.
---

Slavens has a GD of 19 @ 111 STR from Lally, the GD is 11 @ 67 STR's.

-Paul
(DF41+)

jdean
10-13-2013, 08:47 AM
McCombs (kit no. 230189) got his DF23+ result in last night.

McCombs was predicted DF49+ by the Sons of Aodh project, I think because he has a high value for 481 ? Leastways I couldn't see anything else that indicated DF49

I did a little experimenting with this a while back and I'd say there's about a 30% chance of being DF23+ if you have 24 or higher at 481, so if you aren't predicted to be something else and have got a high value for this loci DF23 is definitely worth a punt.

Dubhthach
10-19-2013, 11:16 PM
Currently we have 12 x DF85 results outstanding in the Ireland project. Likewise there are 7 x DF97 tests pending. 6 of those are from men who are awaiting a DF85 result. The 7th is for Lally who is confirmed DF85+.

-Paul
(DF41+)


Lally is now confirmed as DF97-

Two more DF85- results came in namely:
N2231 - Dunn
12068 - Milligan

-Paul
(DF41+)

MacUalraig
10-20-2013, 06:25 AM
Lally is now confirmed as DF97-

Two more DF85- results came in namely:
N2231 - Dunn
12068 - Milligan

-Paul
(DF41+)

Interesting result for Milligan but expected. I hope he goes on to do Chromo2 now as he's one of my closer matches.

Dubhthach
10-20-2013, 03:46 PM
seems we have our second DF97+ namely:
29142 - Doherty

Confirmed DF85+, DF97+ (in the M222 project)

-Paul
(DF41+)

RGM
10-21-2013, 01:24 AM
seems we have our second DF97+ namely:
29142 - Doherty

Confirmed DF85+, DF97+ (in the M222 project)

-Paul
(DF41+)

Interesting that there is a Doherty who is DF97+ and a Daugherty who is DF85-.

Also, it doesn't look like the two DF97+ kits have much in common (in terms of STRs) that separates them from the rest of M222.

Dubhthach
10-21-2013, 02:11 PM
Interesting that there is a Doherty who is DF97+ and a Daugherty who is DF85-.

Also, it doesn't look like the two DF97+ kits have much in common (in terms of STRs) that separates them from the rest of M222.

Well given the history of the region during middle ages i wouldn't regard it as too surprising. The O'Doherty's conqueored Inishowen in the mid 14th century. It was the original homeland of the Cenel nEoghain. (Inish Eoghain = The island of Eoghain). It however had become periperhal after the destruction of the MacLochlainn deirbhfhine in battle with the Ó Néill family (O'Neill surname) whose powerbase was is now south-east Tyrone (Tír Eoghain = the country of Eoghan).

As a result it wouldn't surprise me that you had people absorbed into the Doherty's who may also have been M222 but belong to a seperate lineage.

Inishowen is still part of the "Diocese of Derry" (the diocese of the Cenel nEoghain), whereas the rest of Donegal forms the diocese of Raphoe (the diocese of the Cenel Chonaill)

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/gif/800ulster.gif

-Paul
(DF41+)

TigerMW
10-21-2013, 02:37 PM
Well given the history of the region during middle ages i wouldn't regard it as too surprising. The O'Doherty's conqueored Inishowen in the mid 14th century. It was the original homeland of the Cenel nEoghain. (Inish Eoghain = The island of Eoghain). It however had become periperhal after the destruction of the MacLochlainn deirbhfhine in battle with the Ó Néill family (O'Neill surname) whose powerbase was is now south-east Tyrone (Tír Eoghain = the country of Eoghan).

As a result it wouldn't surprise me that you had people absorbed into the Doherty's who may also have been M222 but belong to a seperate lineage.

Inishowen is still part of the "Diocese of Derry" (the diocese of the Cenel nEoghain), whereas the rest of Donegal forms the diocese of Raphoe (the diocese of the Cenel Chonaill)
...
-Paul
(DF41+)

I suspect this kind of thing is more recurrent than most people think. I see a tendency in some projects where if people have the same surname/variant and the same haplogroup, i.e. M222, they assume they are closely related, but they may not be. Having at least 67 STRs helps defend against this.

Dubhthach
10-21-2013, 02:56 PM
I suspect this kind of thing is more recurrent than most people think. I see a tendency in some projects where if people have the same surname/variant and the same haplogroup, i.e. M222, they assume they are closely related, but they may not be.

Indeed well given the size of M222 it's not surprising. Times like this a general understanding of the history of region may help. The O'Doherty's kept their lordship until the revolt of Cathaoir Ó Dochartaigh (Sir Cahir O'Doherty) resulting in the loss of their lordship in 1608. (Cathaoir head ended up on the gate of Dublin Castle)

-Paul
(DF41+)

jdean
10-23-2013, 08:41 AM
Leprost (kit no. N92711) has come back Z2961+

His ancestry is French Breton which I'm sure'll spark the usual debate : )_

Interestingly he doesn't have any close matches past 37 loci, which appear to be convergence, and I can't locate any candidates I feel confidant about based on his STR results.

David Wilson
10-23-2013, 11:55 AM
I just realized that FTDNA began offering Z2977 and Z2984 several months ago. Both are presumably in the vicinity of M222, but I can't find evidence that they have been widely tested. There are scant results for the former that suggest it is downstream of M222, and no results for the former that I have found. [WRONG: I just found one M222 project member who tested the SNP.] Does anyone know anything about these, or is anyone tracking them? These two are not included in the nine original Z29xx SNPs that became available in January of this year, and which several M222+ people ordered to no perceivable benefit. The only useful SNP of the nine proved to be Z2961, which lies upstream of M222 and below DF23.

I presume the FG test would report them, but do we know if they are on the Chromo2 chip?

EDIT: In the M222 Project, Lally (DF85+, DF97-) tested both and is derived for both; they thus lie above DF85 even if slightly downstream of M222 (which we don't know, but can guess). I am not aware of any M222- individuals who have tested these SNPs. It would be helpful if a Z2961+/M222- individual would do so.

rms2
10-23-2013, 12:04 PM
Leprost (kit no. N92711) has come back Z2961+

His ancestry is French Breton which I'm sure'll spark the usual debate : )_

Interestingly he doesn't have any close matches past 37 loci, which appear to be convergence, and I can't locate any candidates I feel confidant about based on his STR results.

I saw that this morning. Very interesting! And of course he is M222-.

jdean
10-23-2013, 12:17 PM
I just realized that FTDNA began offering Z2977 and Z2984 several months ago. Both are presumably in the vicinity of M222, but I can't find evidence that they have been widely tested. There are scant results for the former that suggest it is downstream of M222, and no results for the former that I have found. Does anyone know anything about these, or is anyone tracking them? These two are not included in the nine original Z29xx SNPs that became available in January of this year, and which several M222+ people ordered to no perceivable benefit. The only useful SNP of the nine proved to be Z2961, which lies upstream of M222 and below DF23.

I presume the FG test would report them, but do we know if they are on the Chromo2 chip?

Both Z2977 & 84 were added later and in that order.

there is some limited testing for Z2977 but as yet non for Z2988 AFAIK

Thomas also ordered the primers for Z2976 but unfortunately they failed, which is a pity as this would have been an interesting SNP for DF23+, M222- folk.

If guessing a fair no. (if not all) of the 38 Z29xx serious is on Chromo2 but unless Jim is willing to make a statement about the DF49 SNPs on that chip (and hopefully S to Z translations) we're in the dark.

jdean
10-23-2013, 12:32 PM
I saw that this morning. Very interesting! And of course he is M222-.

Got to be said I'm quite amazed at the no. of DF23+, M222- kits we've got already with a presumed connection with France considering the limited no. of results to date.

Of course Monsieur Leprost's French credentials are pretty hard to challenge : )_

Any suggestions for Z2961 candidates based on his STRs I'm all ears, the ones I looked at started to fray under closer scrutiny.

TigerMW
10-23-2013, 01:27 PM
Got to be said I'm quite amazed at the no. of DF23+, M222- kits we've got already with a presumed connection with France considering the limited no. of results to date.

Of course Monsieur Leprost's French credentials are pretty hard to challenge : )_

Any suggestions for Z2961 candidates based on his STRs I'm all ears, the ones I looked at started to fray under closer scrutiny.

I think any L21+ person with 481>=23 has to heavily consider M222, Z2961, DF23, and finally if DF49. The R1b-L21_Haplotypes spreadsheet has a number of people classified in varieties that fit with what we already know, but the there are a large number of people beyond my classifications with 481>=23 that need further testing.

jdean
10-23-2013, 02:04 PM
I think any L21+ person with 481>=23 has to heavily consider M222, Z2961, DF23, and finally if DF49. The R1b-L21_Haplotypes spreadsheet has a number of people classified in varieties that fit with what we already know, but the there are a large number of people beyond my classifications with 481>=23 that need further testing.

I think I'd put the bar at 24 myself but I agree, if you're stuck for what to test next and have a high value at DYS481 DF23 is definitely worth a shot !!

Dubhthach
10-23-2013, 02:20 PM
197231 (McConnaughey) -- DF85+, DF97+
192014 (McNeely) -- DF85+, DF97+

That's four DF97+ that I'm aware of.

-Paul
(DF41+)

jdean
10-23-2013, 02:33 PM
197231 (McConnaughey) -- DF85+, DF97+
192014 (McNeely) -- DF85+, DF97+

That's four DF97+ that I'm aware of.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I haven't been following these results closely but I get the impression that so far the no. of DF97+ results compared to DF85* is higher than expected ?

Dubhthach
10-23-2013, 02:52 PM
I haven't been following these results closely but I get the impression that so far the no. of DF97+ results compared to DF85* is higher than expected ?

I believe there are 7 DF85+ in total so far, 4 of those are DF97+. Not sure if all remaining three have tested for DF97 let, at least one is DF85+, DF97-

-Paul
(DF41+)

David Wilson
10-23-2013, 03:33 PM
One DF85+ individual (Slavens) has not yet tested DF97. The other six have, and are split +/- as described.

Roughly 25% of M222 are DF85+ (seven of 29) and, allowing for small numbers, more than half of those seem to be DF97+. That's four of six tested, and either four or five of seven depending on the unknown.

MacUalraig
10-23-2013, 05:36 PM
Got to be said I'm quite amazed at the no. of DF23+, M222- kits we've got already with a presumed connection with France considering the limited no. of results to date.

Of course Monsieur Leprost's French credentials are pretty hard to challenge : )_

Any suggestions for Z2961 candidates based on his STRs I'm all ears, the ones I looked at started to fray under closer scrutiny.

Thanks for flagging this point. Interestingly the one named person who is M222* in the new Chromo2 diagram of M222 is Steve LOMINAC and the last time he was on the M222 forum there was some speculation his name was of French origin - but it was only speculation, no paper trail there.

Dubhthach
10-23-2013, 06:44 PM
Iain Kennedy has posted following link on M222 yahoo list. It's quite a nice breakdown of current knowledge of the Chromo2 snp's with regards to M222.
http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf

It's interesting seeing the spilt in "Northern Uí Néill" surnames between S588 and DF85. DF85 is looking like Cinéal Chonaill given the likes of Doherty, Gallagher, Boyle and O'Donnell.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
10-23-2013, 10:02 PM
Another DF85+ in the M222 project:

36864 - Strain

-Paul
(DF41+)

rms2
10-25-2013, 01:21 AM
I have thought of a new name for Niall of the Nine Hostages that emphasizes the role he probably played in the proliferation of M222: Niall of the Ninety Hot Wenches.

Watch it catch on. ;)

rossa
10-25-2013, 02:50 AM
I have thought of a new name for Niall of the Nine Hostages that emphasizes the role he probably played in the proliferation of M222: Niall of the Ninety Hot Wenches.

Watch it catch on. ;)

There could have been beer/mead goggles involved!

Dubhthach
10-25-2013, 07:59 AM
I have thought of a new name for Niall of the Nine Hostages that emphasizes the role he probably played in the proliferation of M222: Niall of the Ninety Hot Wenches.

Watch it catch on. ;)

Well given nature of Irish society up until the 17th century it's not surprising that lineages could increase on an exponetial scale. One of Niall's supposed descendants in the 15th century had 15 sons who reached adulthood (by 10 different women!) and is recorded as having 50 grandsons in the male line! That was fairly common during the period among the Gaelic lordships. Niall himself supposedly had 8 sons, though there's been some debate that some of these are "genealogical fabrications" for "political reasons".

Sort of same way as "Clann Colla" (DF21+ Null 425) were given a lineage that claimed that the "Three Colla's" were connected into the wider lineage but in the 2nd century (200years before Niall). Genealogical fabrication was par for the course when it came to political shenanigans.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
10-27-2013, 12:26 PM
Another DF85+, DF97- in form of:
N104491 (McCollum) -- he's seems to have done Geno 2.0 testing, and his results are in Dave's pdf for DF49:
http://daver.info/geno/results/R-DF49.pdf
(useful for reference)

---
Mac COLUIM—IV—MacColum, MacCollum, MacCollom, Colum, Collum, &c.; 'son of Colum' (dove); an Ulster surname, found chiefly in Antrim, Tyrone and Donegal; also a Scottish surname, written Mac Caluim, which see.

Mac CALUIM—IV—MacCalum, MacCallam; 'son of Colum'; a variant of Mac Coluim, which see.

---

jdean
11-09-2013, 01:32 AM
At last, a new speculative DF49+ result !!!

No DF23 test per se but the participant also did Geno2 so I'm guessing DF49*

Bowers kit no. 278878 in the L21 project

From a quick perusal I think this result suggests some other candidates.

ABowers
11-09-2013, 03:17 AM
jdean;18604]At last, a new speculative DF49+ result !!!

No DF23 test per se but the participant also did Geno2 so I'm guessing DF49*

Bowers kit no. 278878 in the L21 project

From a quick perusal I think this result suggests some other candidates.


My markers don't look like a good match for DF23 and Z2961 but I'll test anyway just to be sure. If anyone has any ideas about my makers or suggestions for further testing I'd like to hear them. I have no idea where my ancestors came from before they show up in South Carolina in 1795.

Bowers
278878

jdean
11-09-2013, 10:15 AM
Double check your Geno2 results first, you should have been tested for DF23 in that

If you see DF23,Y,G,G you're negative for DF23 and consequently also negative for Z2961

It'd be good for you to join the DF49 project

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49

ABowers
11-10-2013, 05:25 PM
I took your advice and joined the DF49 Project. David Stedman was kind enough to review my Geno 2.0 results
and confirmed that I am DF23-.

jdean
11-10-2013, 05:34 PM
My pleasure : )

jdean
11-12-2013, 02:51 PM
Like buses, another unpredicted DF49* result !!

Kit no. 60163 of family McCreary, Northern Ireland

jdean
11-12-2013, 05:44 PM
Are these new results giving a clearer picture of M222's entry to Ireland and it's spread?


DF49* is quite a long way removed from M222.

Probably it would be better to focus first on Z2961 for answers about M222.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49/default.aspx?section=yresults

jdean
11-20-2013, 08:42 PM
I suppose S476 has a good chance of being Z2980, Z2983, Z2985 or Z2986.

Less Likely but possible is Z2976, but the primers failed on this one for Thomas.

Dubhthach
11-20-2013, 08:52 PM
I suppose S476 has a good chance of being Z2980, Z2983, Z2985 or Z2986.

Less Likely but possible is Z2976, but the primers failed on this one for Thomas.

Could be, until ScotlandsDNA/IrelandsDNA release the actual raw data on location of SNP's we'll be in the dark. Still exciting times ahead!

-Paul
(DF41+)

jdean
11-21-2013, 07:29 PM
Could be, until ScotlandsDNA/IrelandsDNA release the actual raw data on location of SNP's we'll be in the dark. Still exciting times ahead!

-Paul
(DF41+)

Looks like Jim read your message and decided he needed to address this : )

Seems S476 is his alone but he doesn’t report many Z29xx SNPs ?

Anyhow as you say exciting times ahead, roll on February !!!

We had another DF23 BigY just pop up, I'm still the only DF49* so far though : (_

greystones22
11-21-2013, 10:12 PM
I would write and ask about those Z SNPs because they don't feature on the chromo2 YSNP alternative names list

MacEochaidh
12-06-2013, 12:51 AM
I wonder why all DF49+, DF23- are in The Isles, but DF23+ are in France and Italy as well?

jdean
12-06-2013, 01:02 AM
You and me both !!!

Speculative DF49 testing hasn't been exactly high but I'm still a little surprised with how few positives we're getting.

I've got my fingers crossed that Big Y will produce some more but the last time I checked the candidates there were only about 20 who had a chance of being DF49, ie weren’t most likely something else.

jdean
12-08-2013, 12:29 PM
New DF49+ result in the R-L21 project : )

Morgan kit no. 162948

MDKA is Owen Morgan, b.1826 Co. Louth

With a name like that I'd suspect a Welsh ancestry but I expect there's the usual confusion with old Irish names mutating.

Also there's a couple of potentially distant Morgan marches with MDKA from N. Ireland, if they proved to be DF49+ as well it could suggest the line's been in the area for a while.

Dubhthach
12-08-2013, 12:54 PM
New DF49+ result in the R-L21 project : )

Morgan kit no. 162948

MDKA is Owen Morgan, b.1826 Co. Louth

With a name like that I'd suspect a Welsh ancestry but I expect there's the usual confusion with old Irish names mutating.

Also there's a couple of potentially distant Morgan marches with MDKA from N. Ireland, if they proved to be DF49+ as well it could suggest the line's been in the area for a while.

I sent him an email this morning suggesting he test for DF23, his specific ancestry is in Louth.

One potential match from Woulfe's 1923 book on Irish surnames:

Ó MUIREAGÁIN—I—O Murrigane, O Moregane, O Morgan, Murrigan, Murricane, Merrigan, Maragan, Morgan; 'descendant of Muireagán' (diminutive of some name commencing with Muir-); the name of one of the chief families of Teffia, in the present counties of Westmeath and Longford, and sometimes lords of all that district. About the beginning of the 12th century, they disappeared from history, and apparently dispersed to different parts of Ireland. In the 16th century, the name was most numerous in Down and Armagh. It is still common in many parts of Ireland.

Down and Armagh both border on Louth, Louth actually been part of the Diocese of Armagh.

-Paul
(DF41+)

jdean
12-08-2013, 02:31 PM
That's two emails he'll be getting on that subject then : )

Most likely this fellow will remain DF49* for the time being though.

Southforkrudy
12-23-2013, 02:59 PM
Hello, I'm the Morgan kit 162948. I am currently testing for DF23. My question: if I am negative do I continue to test for Z2961?
DF49 has been revelational. This whole time we have been thinking that we would fall into the Airgialla or Airgialla2 clusters, looks like it could be some subclade of Hy-Maine or related group.

See peterspioneers.com/colla.htm

Scroll down to L21 SNP chart

-jpmorgan

Dubhthach
12-23-2013, 03:21 PM
Hello, I'm the Morgan kit 162948. I am currently testing for DF23. My question: if I am negative do I continue to test for Z2961?
DF49 has been revelational. This whole time we have been thinking that we would fall into the Airgialla or Airgialla2 clusters, looks like it could be some subclade of Hy-Maine or related group.

See peterspioneers.com/colla.htm

Scroll down to L21 SNP chart

-jpmorgan

If you come back as DF23- then it's automatic that you will also be Z2961- so I wouldn't order it. However if you do come back as DF23+ then it's worth giving it a punt to see what your Z2961 status would be. In the longer term it would probably also worthwhile to upgrade to 111 markers.

Alex Williamson for example has generated "Neighbour Joining" tree's based off 111STR results.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Southforkrudy
12-23-2013, 03:38 PM
Thank you, Paul, I'm grateful for the insight...and yes, I have been contemplating the upgrade to 111 markers. Merry Christmas.

Southforkrudy
12-23-2013, 08:43 PM
I have a very peculiar DYS565 marker of 9 and I don't know what to think of it. In all my projects (DF49, Ireland, Morgan) it is extremely infrequent.

David Mc
01-09-2014, 12:57 AM
Does anyone have any idea yet of how worthwhile Chromo 2 might be for DF49* people? Put another way, I'm FTDNA Kit # 216031. Does Chromo 2 offer me anything that FTDNA doesn't, or have I exhausted my options?

TigerMW
01-09-2014, 01:03 PM
I have a very peculiar DYS565 marker of 9 and I don't know what to think of it. In all my projects (DF49, Ireland, Morgan) it is extremely infrequent.
What's your kit #? I'll see if I can find people who match with you and what they have at 565.

jdean
01-11-2014, 05:47 PM
Does anyone have any idea yet of how worthwhile Chromo 2 might be for DF49* people? Put another way, I'm FTDNA Kit # 216031. Does Chromo 2 offer me anything that FTDNA doesn't, or have I exhausted my options?

I'm not aware of any DF49*, or DF23+, M222- for that matter, folk who have Chromo2 results so it's a little hard to say.

Jim Wilson has one SNP between DF49 and DF23 called S476 but there is no information on the frequency of DF49+, S476- but presumably Jim has seen at least one occurrence of this.

I sent Jim an email asking him if S476 was another name for Z2976, Z2980, Z2983, Z2980 or Z2986 which are all thought to be upstream of Z2961 but haven’t received a reply yet.

Personally I think ordering Chromo2 for one SNP is probably a little OTT but it would be nice to see results for DF49* and DF23

However I think my advice is to sit tight and see what BigY heralds, there are 4 DF49*, 1 DF23* and a Z2961* orders in the project plus a DF49* Full Y.

David Mc
01-11-2014, 07:35 PM
Thanks very much, jdean. I'll sit tight and watch the BigY for now, as you say.

Dubhthach
01-17-2014, 04:10 PM
Thank you, Paul, I'm grateful for the insight...and yes, I have been contemplating the upgrade to 111 markers. Merry Christmas.

JP,

I see you came back as DF23-, this puts you in what could be classes as DF49* (eg. postive for DF49 but negative for all know subclades).

Regards
-Paul
(DF41+)

Southforkrudy
01-19-2014, 03:48 AM
Paul -
Wow you're on top of it, thanks for the news. I checked yesterday and there were no results yet. So now it's a waiting game. My 111 results are due first week of February, though.
- jpm

David Mc
02-11-2014, 02:44 AM
Hi all. This may not be the best place to ask this as it has broader applications than just DF49, but we are trying to encourage different branches of our family to upgrade their markers and, perhaps, test for DF49. As far as I can tell, FTDNA have gotten rid og the Y-SNP test, presumably because they are wanting to move people towards the "Big Y." Given the cost of that test, most of my contacts won't be willing to commit. Is it possible for someone with just STR's to test specifically for DF49, or does FTDNA require a broader level of testing first?

David Mc
02-11-2014, 02:51 AM
As a second question, given that two of us (McElreas) have tested DF49*, and I'm waiting to see what, if any, advantages there are to going with the Big Y myself, would it make sense to have other McElreas, who have very similar STR markers to me, also test for DF49? It's fairly clear that they will test positive... so I suppose I'm asking if confirming their status will actually benefit the McElrea project or the study of our subclade. Some of us, as most of you here will appreciate, have put a goodly amount of money into this, and don't want to encourage our fellow project members to throw money at these tests without good reason.

MacUalraig
02-11-2014, 07:30 AM
Hi all. This may not be the best place to ask this as it has broader applications than just DF49, but we are trying to encourage different branches of our family to upgrade their markers and, perhaps, test for DF49. As far as I can tell, FTDNA have gotten rid og the Y-SNP test, presumably because they are wanting to move people towards the "Big Y." Given the cost of that test, most of my contacts won't be willing to commit. Is it possible for someone with just STR's to test specifically for DF49, or does FTDNA require a broader level of testing first?

Yes, go into Order an upgrade /Order an Advanced Test, select SNP and you can then browse or pick DF49 out as a custom test.

David Mc
02-11-2014, 08:25 AM
Thanks MacUalraig. Much appreciated. I was worried that the base test would be a prerequisite for testing specific SNPs.

TigerMW
02-11-2014, 03:10 PM
Hi all. This may not be the best place to ask this as it has broader applications than just DF49, but we are trying to encourage different branches of our family to upgrade their markers and, perhaps, test for DF49. As far as I can tell, FTDNA have gotten rid og the Y-SNP test, presumably because they are wanting to move people towards the "Big Y." Given the cost of that test, most of my contacts won't be willing to commit. Is it possible for someone with just STR's to test specifically for DF49, or does FTDNA require a broader level of testing first?
Hi, David.

What tests are you thinking FTDNA is gotten rid of? They still have their advanced ordering system for a la carte (one a time) SNP testing and National Genographic 2.0 tests are actually processed by FTDNA and can be transferred to your FTDNA account.

[[[ EDIT: Please ignore. I see there was already a reply. .. but I did just notice that FTDNA has added some new SNPs to their menu including a couple of S series and FGC series SNPs. ]]]

David Mc
02-11-2014, 10:30 PM
Hi Mike,

That's ok. I had thought one might have to do the basic Y-SNP test as a prerequisite before moving on to the a la carte tests. Happily, I was mistaken. I've already done everything that can be done barring the Big Y or it's equivalents, but we have a number of McElreas who have only done STR's at this point.

I'm in a bit of a testing cul-de-sac now as we've discussed before. Do you think its worth having other McElreas, who are clearly all related, test? Two of us are presently part of the "unassigned" group in the DF49 project. We could probably fill up DF49 with sheer numbers, but I have to wonder, is it helpful for us to do so? Is it of value to those who are studying DF49? I love the fact that there is a burgeoning interest in tracing our line in this way, but we don;t want to ask people to pay towards something that is of no value to them or to anyone else... I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

TigerMW
02-11-2014, 11:13 PM
..... Do you think its worth having other McElreas, who are clearly all related, test? Two of us are presently part of the "unassigned" group in the DF49 project. We could probably fill up DF49 with sheer numbers, but I have to wonder, is it helpful for us to do so? Is it of value to those who are studying DF49? ...

Let me give you two answers. My passionate answer is yes, the more people that are DF49* the more likely others will find interest in it and do the testing. In "olden" times I would have said everyone should test to their terminal SNP anyway.

However, from a more analytical point of view, we are seeing a rash of new SNPs. It's probably particularly important that a couple of diverse haplotypes within this cluster of McElrea's and some people right outside its edge do some kind of Next Generation Sequencing (NGS) test like Big Y. You may find new SNPs that need to be tested to determine the branching for DF49+ DF23- people. These NGS tests are expensive, though.

David Mc
02-12-2014, 12:07 AM
Thanks Mike. I'll see if we can encourage some more to go for the terminal SNP. One of us will probably take the leap with Big Y, as well, but I might still wait and see what kinds of fruit that test produces for other DF49*s before I commit. I'd love to see people right outside the edge of our group as well, but we have no matches above 25 markers excepting those who bear our own surname. Go figure...

jdean
03-18-2014, 09:12 AM
We got two BigY results in for the DF49 project last night : )))))

Joyce, who has already tested Z2961+, M222-, is now also positive for Z2976 (AKA S476), Z2983, Z2985 & Z2986

Culver, who was DF13? until last night, is now DF49* from our current understand of the tree having also tested negative for Z2976

Both gents had a no call for Z2980 but I don't have enough time to investigate why at the mo.

sculver
03-19-2014, 08:30 PM
We got two BigY results in for the DF49 project last night : )))))

Joyce, who has already tested Z2961+, M222-, is now also positive for Z2976 (AKA S476), Z2983, Z2985 & Z2986

Culver, who was DF13? until last night, is now DF49* from our current understand of the tree having also tested negative for Z2976

Both gents had a no call for Z2980 but I don't have enough time to investigate why at the mo.

David S. alerted by email that my results were R-DF49* and I am the Culver mentioned in the above post.

I am some reading to do to catch up!

Sandy

AJL
03-19-2014, 08:45 PM
David S. alerted by email that my results were R-DF49* and I am the Culver mentioned in the above post.

I am some reading to do to catch up!

Sandy

Hello cousin! My mother's maternal great-great-grandmother was Charity Jane Culver of Norfolk County, Ontario, Canada, daughter of William, originally of Morris County, NJ.

sculver
03-19-2014, 09:04 PM
Hello cousin! My mother's maternal great-great-grandmother was Charity Jane Culver of Norfolk County, Ontario, Canada, daughter of William, originally of Morris County, NJ.

I see you have left off going back from William Culver.

I have two partially separate lines going back to Edward Culver of Mystic, Connecticut ( 1600-1685) but not enough Culver males to nail down the DNA facts. I am an co-admin for a small Culver DNA group via FTDNA.

Sandy

Southforkrudy
04-07-2014, 03:42 AM
What's your kit #? I'll see if I can find people who match with you and what they have at 565.

Mikewww, sorry, I've been tied up lately. In response to your inquiry: My kit number is 162948

Jpm

Dubhthach
04-07-2014, 08:27 AM
We got two BigY results in for the DF49 project last night : )))))

Joyce, who has already tested Z2961+, M222-, is now also positive for Z2976 (AKA S476), Z2983, Z2985 & Z2986

Culver, who was DF13? until last night, is now DF49* from our current understand of the tree having also tested negative for Z2976

Both gents had a no call for Z2980 but I don't have enough time to investigate why at the mo.

Going off Alex Williamson's "Big Y" tree here it appears that Z2976 spilts Z2961. Joyce and M222+ men are all Z2976+, whereas Trainor (Uí Maine?) is Z2961+, Z2976-

see the diagram here:
http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/NGS/Tree.html

-Paul
(DF41+)

jdean
04-07-2014, 07:24 PM
Going off Alex Williamson's "Big Y" tree here it appears that Z2976 spilts Z2961. Joyce and M222+ men are all Z2976+, whereas Trainor (Uí Maine?) is Z2961+, Z2976-

see the diagram here:
http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/NGS/Tree.html

-Paul
(DF41+)

That's weird, Jim Wilson claims this is upstream of DF23 and has 2 Z2976+, DF23- results in his 'C2_2000 Mutations.csv' spreadsheet ?

Love the way Alex presents this data BTW

jdean
04-17-2014, 07:46 PM
That's weird, Jim Wilson claims this is upstream of DF23 and has 2 Z2976+, DF23- results in his 'C2_2000 Mutations.csv' spreadsheet ?

Love the way Alex presents this data BTW

The Big Y results have just turned up for our DF23+, Z2961- candidate

No access to the VCF & BED file yet so I can't do a proper analysis but he's reported as

Z2976 C G High
Z2983 T G High
Z2985 A C High
Z2986 G C High

So it seems Z2976 is above Z2961, as Jim Wilson said, after all.

rms2
04-18-2014, 02:24 PM
I noticed you picked up a Swede, ancestral surname Bengtsson, kit 256925. Big Y shows him as DF49+ but DF23-.

jdean
04-18-2014, 02:44 PM
Yes fantastic news, the first DF49* result with ancestry outside the Isles !!!!

Though he's not actually DF49* now since he's also positive for 24079397 G to A & 22469685 C to A.

This group looks set to take over DF49*, I was looking at the GDs and they're quite extraordinary : )))

Southforkrudy
05-19-2014, 03:49 AM
Looking at ftdna df49 project genetic graft, I'm wondering if I should test for L277 next? Can somebody help me?

jdean
05-19-2014, 07:02 AM
Looking at ftdna df49 project genetic graft, I'm wondering if I should test for L277 next? Can somebody help me?

L277 was added as a speculative end of branch for my sub sub group, which could have made it into ISOGG if it had panned out, however it now looks like it's going to be private (under DF49). If I'm lucky it might help split my Stedman family but I haven't decided on a testing plan. I wouldn't recommend it for any other DF49 at the moment and it's going to be removed from the tree.

jdean
05-19-2014, 11:00 AM
Looking at ftdna df49 project genetic graft, I'm wondering if I should test for L277 next? Can somebody help me?

I'd say you were a fair candidate for the FGC SNPs at the top of that branch. None of the new Big Y / FGC SNPs are available anywhere yet (AFAIK) but probably the FGC SNPs will have a good chance of coming in first, benefiting from the attention of FGC and FTDNA. I wounder who'll find primers first ?

Southforkrudy
05-20-2014, 12:20 AM
I'd say you were a fair candidate for the FGC SNPs at the top of that branch. None of the new Big Y / FGC SNPs are available anywhere yet (AFAIK) but probably the FGC SNPs will have a good chance of coming in first, benefiting from the attention of FGC and FTDNA. I wounder who'll find primers first ?

Thanks, jdean, I appreciate the help

Southforkrudy
12-16-2014, 10:04 PM
FYI...I purchased the BigY today

Southforkrudy
03-03-2015, 06:22 PM
My Big-Y results came in. I tested ZP20+, ZP21+, ZP23-. I'm aligned with Pruitt and Hakansson on the DF-49 Project chart at FTDNA. Not much action going on in the DF-49 project.

David Mc
03-04-2015, 04:32 AM
My Big-Y results came in. I tested ZP20+, ZP21+, ZP23-. I'm aligned with Pruitt and Hakansson on the DF-49 Project chart at FTDNA. Not much action going on in the DF-49 project.

Great news! As you say, DF49xDF23 results are few and far between. Nice to see another one coming in, though.

jdean
03-04-2015, 08:42 AM
Great news! As you say, DF49xDF23 results are few and far between. Nice to see another one coming in, though.

It's a constant source of amazement for myself considering the extraordinary number of BigY tests being taken, a lot of which are by people who are L21+ ? or DF13+ ?.

I check all BigY results turning up in the L21 project plus regularly look through all the project's BigY members matches for signs of new DF49 BigY results.

Despite all of this almost all DF49 BigYs coming in are for folk already in the project.

Anyhow with the BigY results from last week we have new branching SNPs under ZP21 and a branch defining SNP for DF23+, Z2961- which looks to have the potential to take a nice big bite out of that section so I'm not moaning : )

dp
03-04-2015, 04:44 PM
[withdrawn due to adding all DF49xM222. Please do not quote this post]

dp
03-05-2015, 03:22 PM
This chart is of the DF49xM222 kits. It is an expansion of the prior post.
This is a list of the people --in public projects-- that have tested [with likely FamilyTreeDNA] for DF49 or a downstream marker that CANNOT be eliminated as a DF49xM222 based on their reported SNP testing results. The data is from the latest R1b-L21 spreadsheet (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Haplotypes.zip) I could find on Yahoo L21 but is over a month old, so some recently tested SNPs are not given.
I have tried to make it consistent with the current DF49 tree (on the R-Z18 website (http://l257.groenebeverbv.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=122)). For a few, I looked at their Big-Y files, as found in the Yahoo L21 file area (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-L21-Project/files/Big_Y_results/).
When I compared the current listing to one I made last summer, I noticed some kits no longer in the current spreadsheet. I do not know if the people left the public projects (&/ wanted their results to be private), and thus, I did not try to merge the results.
As you move through a branch the haplotypes are arranged from most expansive to least. -dp

3955
3956
3965

Parenthesis indicates SNP may not have been tested for that kit.

Thoughts:
If you see DF49xM222s in your various match lists that may benefit from additional SNP testing, drop them a line. -dp

Correction:
I had incorrect descent paths for ZP54s. I revised the image, but cant take the old attachment off. The incorrect one is appended to the bottom, so ignore the 4th image. -dp

Huntergatherer1066
03-08-2015, 02:50 AM
DF49 is in the FTDNA haplotree now so that may help encourage casual testers to test for it.

David Mc
03-08-2015, 03:04 AM
I just took a quick look, and it isn't showing up on my haplotree... I wonder what's going on?
Edited: My mistake. It is there!

jdean
03-08-2015, 11:54 AM
DF49 is in the FTDNA haplotree now so that may help encourage casual testers to test for it.

It turned up a couple of weeks ago but FTDNA's reporting of R-DF49 in the Haplogroup column is very wonky at the moment.

jdean
03-08-2015, 04:41 PM
Got round to updating the tree on the project front page today to show resent developments.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49

I also keep a PDF version here

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10258680/R1b-DF49_Tree_Chart.pdf

TigerMW
03-09-2015, 12:32 AM
Got round to updating the tree on the project front page today to show resent developments.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49

I also keep a PDF version here

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10258680/R1b-DF49_Tree_Chart.pdf

Thank you. I couldn't find the position number and allele change for ZP112. What are they? I looked here.

http://l257.groenebeverbv.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=122

I know Peter is concerned about duplicitous SNP names. I am too, but it helps if he gets the position number and mutation change in to Ybrowse and the ISOGG SNP index. At least Thomas Krahn and FTDNA respect these and will stick to the names.

jdean
03-09-2015, 06:28 PM
Thank you. I couldn't find the position number and allele change for ZP112. What are they? I looked here.

http://l257.groenebeverbv.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=122

I know Peter is concerned about duplicitous SNP names. I am too, but it helps if he gets the position number and mutation change in to Ybrowse and the ISOGG SNP index. At least Thomas Krahn and FTDNA respect these and will stick to the names.

I think Peter's got his hands full with another part of his research at the moment, these are the new ZP SNPs

ZP111 16807422 C to T
ZP112 5060608 T to C
ZP113 18680929 A to G
ZP114 22184146 T to C
ZP115 7935412 A to T
ZP116 18836081 C to A

Thomas normally picks up the new ZP SNPs from Peter's website but I think I'll drop him a line as a few seem to have gone missing during Ybrowser's recent move.

Southforkrudy
03-10-2015, 02:18 PM
This is all great information. Thank you to all the above for posting new developments/research. And now that I have seen the updated D49 chart, there is more activity than previously perceived, even among D49/M222-

TigerMW
03-10-2015, 03:55 PM
I think Peter's got his hands full with another part of his research at the moment, these are the new ZP SNPs

ZP111 16807422 C to T
ZP112 5060608 T to C
ZP113 18680929 A to G
ZP114 22184146 T to C
ZP115 7935412 A to T
ZP116 18836081 C to A

Thomas normally picks up the new ZP SNPs from Peter's website but I think I'll drop him a line as a few seem to have gone missing during Ybrowser's recent move.

Yes, I noticed that some updates were made in YBrowse. I think they were legitimate clean-up but in some cases old "ZS" names were replaced by "Z" names, etc. If we are going to count on these kinds of databases as "production" type there are ramifications. For instance, an SNP was named "ZS" and I submitted that to FTDNA. That SNP name was one of the ones changed to "Z". Now I have to go back to FTDNA and ask for a change. I'm actually starting to feel some empathy for the old BISDNA approach of naming everything "S" and at least you have control over your own SNP names (as a testing company.) We hobbyists are left at the mercy of whatever goes on.

Anyway, I'll use ZP111 as the lead with SNP on the draft L21 tree. Let me know if another replaces it as a better Sanger Sequencing candidate.

dp
03-10-2015, 09:28 PM
This is all great information. Thank you to all the above for posting new developments/research. And now that I have seen the updated D49 chart, there is more activity than previously perceived, even among D49/M222-

Yep...compared to how few there are known in the DF49xM222 clade I think we have a higher than normal percentage of NGS testing :-)
dp :-)

Southforkrudy
03-13-2015, 04:28 PM
So, what are we learning about the discovery of a plethora of SNPs and branches off subclades and sub sub subclades? Especially when we are finding so many different ethic mixes matched. I am by far no expert on DNA analysis nor of the migration of peoples nor of cultural origins. I am a simple genealogist who wants to learn more about my identity as an R-L21 Celt, but find this all incredibly fascinating. If you would have told me that I would be taking 14 DNA tests since 2009, I would have told you that you're crazy. I pose the question for the simple sake of discussion (As a DF49 [ZP21] person I want to keep this thread going and thriving...and feel connected by the way). There are some great minds and some experts whose insights (opinions?) have helped me and I highly value. Comments?

Southforkrudy
03-13-2015, 04:29 PM
excuse me "ethnic"

dp
03-31-2015, 07:35 PM
David S. alerted by email that my results were R-DF49* and I am the Culver mentioned in the above post.

I am some reading to do to catch up!

Sandy

Hey Sandy,
Glad to see you on Anthrogenica.
David Powell :-)

dp
04-13-2015, 06:48 PM
ZP106 has been added to the upgrade menu.
dp

laurie
04-14-2015, 05:49 AM
Hi David - I tried responding to your message but got told that I couldn't do so until I had posted at least 10 times on the forum and this post makes it number 10 for me :)

I have just ordered ZP106 so hopefully that will also help. I've emailed both Thomas J Allan and L.A. Thomas requesting that they both test for ZP69. Do either of them appear as matches on your Big Y list?

Thanks for keeping me in the loop. I'll let you know what responses I get.

Cheers
Laurie

dp
04-14-2015, 04:45 PM
Dear laurie,
Great, thanks for returning the favor. Since I came up ZP69-, hopefully you'll come up ZP106- :-) Hopefully either Allan or Thomas will come through so you'll can prove ZP69 is not private. I've emailed my Pruner match and asked for them to test to prove that ZP106 is also not private.
Maybe before long our last (and most important) SNP (ZZ29_1) will become available. I suspect the hard part will be to get a ZZ29_1- result. ZP75 seems to be a larger Z2961 branch than ours so people are going to be more likely to take it.
Thanks again, and now the wait begins anew :-)
-dp
PS: I believe all the DF23xM222 Big-Y kits come up as matches.

laurie
04-16-2015, 12:14 AM
News from YFull.com

New samples:
new sample YF03095 in subclade R-Y13167
new sample YF03096 in subclade R-Y13167
new sample YF02994 in subclade R-Y3644

Y-Tree changing:
at subclade R-M222 added SNP Z2989/S652
subclade R-Y13167 added to R-DF85 with SNPs Y13167, Y13168, Y13556, Y13557, Y13558, Y13559, Y13560 and other 4 SNPs

Dubhthach
04-18-2015, 06:31 PM
In the DF41 project we recently had a join request from a Dutch guy (living in the Netherlands) who was confirmed DF13 in FTDNA, he had join due to Casey's haplogroup predicitor, as he didn't particulary match any of our DF41/CTS2501 members so we suggest he do the yseq L21 super panel. It turns out he's DF49. He's now in the DF49 project and is awaiting the results of the yseq DF49 panel. Should be interesting to see how that turns out. In his case his ancestors have been living in the Netherlands since the 1660's and tradition is they came up the Rhine from general Cologne region in western Germany.

-Paul

jdean
04-18-2015, 11:05 PM
In the DF41 project we recently had a join request from a Dutch guy (living in the Netherlands) who was confirmed DF13 in FTDNA, he had join due to Casey's haplogroup predicitor, as he didn't particulary match any of our DF41/CTS2501 members so we suggest he do the yseq L21 super panel. It turns out he's DF49. He's now in the DF49 project and is awaiting the results of the yseq DF49 panel. Should be interesting to see how that turns out. In his case his ancestors have been living in the Netherlands since the 1660's and tradition is they came up the Rhine from general Cologne region in western Germany.

-Paul

Thanks for the heads up Paul. FTDNA's notification system has been broken for ages now so I don't get emails regarding new members, that said I'd have puzzled over this fellow joining the project anyway : )

I expect he'll be some flavor of DF23 going by his high DYS481 but we have got a couple of DF49+, DF23 negs with high values at this loci as well now.

One thing for sure, he's well and truly on his own from his STR results !!!!

Dubhthach
04-18-2015, 11:26 PM
Thanks for the heads up Paul. FTDNA's notification system has been broken for ages now so I don't get emails regarding new members, that said I'd have puzzled over this fellow joining the project anyway : )

I expect he'll be some flavor of DF23 going by his high DYS481 but we have got a couple of DF49+, DF23 negs with high values at this loci as well now.

One thing for sure, he's well and truly on his own from his STR results !!!!

Indeed he wasn't anywhere close to any of our DF41+ members, so it should be interesting to see how his DF49 panel comes back. Plus it's good having a continental whose df49+

jdean
04-18-2015, 11:53 PM
Indeed he wasn't anywhere close to any of our DF41+ members, so it should be interesting to see how his DF49 panel comes back. Plus it's good having a continental whose df49+

Closest match I can find is U198 with a GD of 15 @ 67, mans an island but that's not so uncommon in DF49 x M222

We've a few continentals now but mostly in the DF23 section though we do have a Z2976* from Spain and a DF49* (minus ZP20 test that's on it's way) with French ancestry

There's also a Channel Isles BigY who's likely Z2980*, the Channel Isles are at least half way French if not a lot closer : )

rms2
04-19-2015, 12:40 PM
Closest match I can find is U198 with a GD of 15 @ 67, mans an island but that's not so uncommon in DF49 x M222

We've a few continentals now but mostly in the DF23 section though we do have a Z2976* from Spain and a DF49* (minus ZP20 test that's on it's way) with French ancestry

There's also a Channel Isles BigY who's likely Z2980*, the Channel Isles are at least half way French if not a lot closer : )

Some guy at the Facebook L21 group right away told him his y-dna ancestor probably came from Ireland. Groan!

jdean
04-19-2015, 03:14 PM
Some guy at the Facebook L21 group right away told him his y-dna ancestor probably came from Ireland. Groan!

Groan indeed !!!

rms2
04-19-2015, 07:13 PM
I didn't even pipe up and argue about it. It just happens too often.

jdean
04-19-2015, 07:25 PM
I didn't even pipe up and argue about it. It just happens too often.

You could probably fill your time very nicely if you took on everybody who claimed an L21 continental must have Isles ancestry, I don't have to worry about it with Z18 since the subject doesn't comes up but there are so few continental DF49s it's not too much bother.

BTW I spent the entire afternoon assigning a handful of ungrouped folk in the DF49 project and then creating and few new groups with some inevitable resorting, how on earth you cope with the R-L21 project is beyond me : )

rms2
04-19-2015, 07:32 PM
You could probably fill your time very nicely if you took on everybody who claimed an L21 continental must have Isles ancestry, I don't have to worry about it with Z18 since the subject doesn't comes up but there are so few continental DF49s it's not too much bother.

BTW I spent the entire afternoon assigning a handful of ungrouped folk in the DF49 project and then creating and few new groups with some inevitable resorting, how on earth you cope with the R-L21 project is beyond me : )

I couldn't handle it if I tried to keep track of all the new SNPs and have categories for all of them. That's why I went to categories just for the major branches. I have a sheet of known L21 SNPs that I run a search on whenever I come across a new member with a SNP I've never heard of, so I can put him in the right category.

jdean
04-19-2015, 07:40 PM
I couldn't handle it if I tried to keep track of all the new SNPs and have categories for all of them. That's why I went to categories just for the major branches. I have a sheet of known L21 SNPs that I run a search on whenever I come across a new member with a SNP I've never heard of, so I can put him in the right category.

Even then a lot of work !!!

Joe B
09-02-2015, 04:33 PM
Just a heads up to be on the lookout for R1b-DF49 with a L277+. L277 was just added to the FTDNA tree under DF49. L277.1 is a major branch of R1b-Z2103. See #117897 R-DF49

Silesian
09-02-2015, 05:32 PM
Just a heads up to be on the lookout for R1b-DF49 with a L277+. L277 was just added to the FTDNA tree under DF49. L277.1 is a major branch of R1b-Z2103. See #117897 R-DF49
In another couple of weeks post #6 will be 3 years old. How time flies.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?112-L277-and-L584&p=1743&viewfull=1#post1743

There was one Cossack that used to post occasionally with a pleasant/friendly disposition;kind nature, I'm sure he would be thrilled. I remember not to long ago Mjost compared our branches:)
"Thanks for your help. Does this help. We are both L150+/ L51-[/COLOR]
Here are my snp's tested with Familytreedna kit 176123-R1b1a2a1 R-L150-L150+, L277-, L51-, L584-, Z2105+
Here are Kazakhstan- kit 2R1b1a2a1 R-L150-L150+, L23+, L51- , M269+, P312-, U106-

Yaik Cossacks


The Ural Cossack Host was a cossack host formed from the Ural Cossacks, cossacks settled by the Ural River.Their alternative name, Yaik Cossacks, comes from the old name of the river.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Ural_river_basinEN.png

jdean
09-02-2015, 06:17 PM
Just a heads up to be on the lookout for R1b-DF49 with a L277+. L277 was just added to the FTDNA tree under DF49. L277.1 is a major branch of R1b-Z2103. See #117897 R-DF49

Presumably this was a slip that they've fixed ?

It'd be a funny thing to do on FTDNA's part anyway, what would they call this branch, R-L277 : )

Also I'm not really expecting to find any D49+, L277+ in the near future who don't descend from Shropshire Stedmans.


Edit, take it back, and they have called it R-L277 ? Presumably this is part of FTDNA's ongoing policy of creating confusion ?

mrrstrat
08-29-2016, 06:33 PM
Keeping my eye on this: I am Z2961+ with deeper testing in the works...Should know something soon.

mrrstrat
08-29-2016, 06:34 PM
And M222- as well.

dp
08-29-2016, 08:06 PM
Let us know what you get for ZP75. It's the biggest Z2961xM222 branch.
If ZP75- I hope they also can test for ZZ29_1, ZZ30_1. They are palindromes, so they may not.
dp :-)

r_r_abril
09-11-2016, 10:38 PM
Keeping my eye on this: I am Z2961+ with deeper testing in the works...Should know something soon.

I am Z2976* (and -Z2961), which is a relatively rare terminal haplogroup.

My patrilineal language seems to be the product of an ancient British migration to the Iberian Peninsula. Here it became isolated.

Dubhthach
09-12-2016, 08:59 AM
I am Z2976* (and -Z2961), which is a relatively rare terminal haplogroup.

My patrilineal language seems to be the product of an ancient British migration to the Iberian Peninsula. Here it became isolated.

Z2976* is indeed rare, looking at Alex's YTree site there's only one Z2976* who has done BigY who has shared results:

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=90&star=true

He has 27 high quality SNP's unique so far to his BigY result. Do you have any plans on doing BigY/FGC in the near future? (say when there is a sale etc?)

dp
09-12-2016, 08:34 PM
I am Z2976* (and -Z2961), which is a relatively rare terminal haplogroup.

My patrilineal language seems to be the product of an ancient British migration to the Iberian Peninsula. Here it became isolated.
Have you been tested for DF23? It is between Z2976 & Z2961, phylogenetically speaking. Most Z2976+ carriers are also DF23+ carriers.
dp :-)

r_r_abril
09-19-2016, 09:52 PM
Z2976* is indeed rare, looking at Alex's YTree site there's only one Z2976* who has done BigY who has shared results:

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=90&star=true

He has 27 high quality SNP's unique so far to his BigY result. Do you have any plans on doing BigY/FGC in the near future? (say when there is a sale etc?)

I did indeed the BigY test 9 months ago.

dp
09-20-2016, 08:26 PM
I did indeed the BigY test 9 months ago.
Abril was the key to find you in my Big-Y match list :-)
BTW You're the only Z2976** in my match list, as the other one we know of, does not appear.
dp :-)

jdean
10-04-2017, 06:19 PM
Just a heads up to be on the lookout for R1b-DF49 with a L277+. L277 was just added to the FTDNA tree under DF49. L277.1 is a major branch of R1b-Z2103. See #117897 R-DF49

Decided to take this up with FTDNA again, last time it went down like a lead balloon, anyway L277 is now in it's proper place on the haplotree and so far I haven't been declared Z2103 : )

Joe B
10-05-2017, 01:03 AM
Decided to take this up with FTDNA again, last time it went down like a lead balloon, anyway L277 is now in it's proper place on the haplotree and so far I haven't been declared Z2103 : )
Good luck. We've been walking away from L277. Using Y4362 as the lead SNP for that Z2103 branch. There are only seven haplotypes in the R1b Basal Subclades project with the R1b-L277 label from FTDNA.

01-02-2020, 03:12 PM
I represent this new finding R-Z2961

What do you know about it?

Rich Moran

01-02-2020, 03:17 PM
My Y is now R-Z2961

Moran’s of the My Maine associated with the Larkin’s and Kelly’s?

Anyone know anything about this subset of R-M222

Rich Moran

jdean
01-02-2020, 05:10 PM
My Y is now R-Z2961

Moran’s of the My Maine associated with the Larkin’s and Kelly’s?

Anyone know anything about this subset of R-M222

Rich Moran

Z2961 is upstream of M222

35715