L-M349 L1b1 - any thoughts?

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Primarily seems to be Western Asian, but with so many turning up in Europe - along the Mediterranean, Italy, Portugal, and the Central European Rhine-Danube Cluster, any thoughts on how and when it 1) originated, and 2) distributed through Europe?

[Anabasis]

In my opinion in middle neolethic it expanded from Levant to eastern Medeterenian zone toward inner and southern europe as a result of one of neolethic expansions. But we need to know whats the TMRCA of subclades under M349 which is unique to Europe to understand exact time.

[GarethH]

The two L-M349 lines tested for Big Y (neither uploaded to Yfull, unfortunately) are separated by about 7,000 - 8,000 years so the branch itself is definitely Neolithic. It probably spread to Europe in more than one expansion, but numbers are so small as to be almost undetectable in academic research. Surprisingly, no L-M349 was found in the major study of Sardinian DNA (the Ls were all either L-L595 or L-M27). One L-M349 sample was found in a 2006 paper on Iran.

[Caspian]

We should not forget that some L-M349 samples have certain Jewish ancestry. I agree with Gareth. L-M349 have more than one expansion to Europe.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

We should not forget that some L-M349 samples have certain Jewish ancestry. I agree with Gareth. L-M349 have more than one expansion to Europe.

I have spotted on the 23andMe forums, that some L-M349 (many of who most probably do not test or record their Y-DNA further), do claim paternal Ashkenazi ancestry, although clearly by the spread, it is far from always the case.

[dmana]

So recently I got a predicted L-M20 in FTDNA, and after purchasing the L-M20 SNP pack I got that I am positive for M349>FGC36845 but negative for both its subclades PAGES00116 & BY13005. When I look at the results in the Y-haplogroup L project it seems that those who got the same results are all Italian, Swiss/German and one Swedish guy, which is a bit of a surprise to me since my ancestors are Marsh Arabs from the Maysan Governorate. Thoguh it's possible that if more Arabs tested themselves they'll start to show up in this group.

I also have 2 STR matches with two Italian men (Genetic distance = 1 at 12 markers) though they haven't tested which subgroup they belong to. Is it safe to assume that they belong to the same group?

And does anyone know an estimate of the MRCA for L-FGC36845?

[GarethH]

So recently I got a predicted L-M20 in FTDNA, and after purchasing the L-M20 SNP pack I got that I am positive for M349>FGC36845 but negative for both its subclades PAGES00116 & BY13005. When I look at the results in the Y-haplogroup L project it seems that those who got the same results are all Italian, Swiss/German and one Swedish guy, which is a bit of a surprise to me since my ancestors are Marsh Arabs from the Maysan Governorate. Thoguh it's possible that if more Arabs tested themselves they'll start to show up in this group.

I also have 2 STR matches with two Italian men (Genetic distance = 1 at 12 markers) though they haven't tested which subgroup they belong to. Is it safe to assume that they belong to the same group?

And does anyone know an estimate of the MRCA for L-FGC36845?

Thanks for testing. FGC36845 is just one level below M349 and is almost as old - so nearly 7,000 years old! The structure of the tree below this isn't clear yet, there seem to be lots of old and rare branches scattered over Europe and the Middle East. The two people you match 11/12 are close matches to each other at 67 markers but not to you. They may well belong to L-FGC36845 but a different subgroup.

[Erik_Maher]

Hi, I have a friend of Cuban paternal descent whose Y-DNA results put him in predicted L-M20. This was really shocking to me (when he told me L-M20, I said "L? L??? L?????"), as I had always thought that L was confined mostly to Pakistan and India, with some scattered members in Persia, Anatolia, or the Middle East... ...I didn't realize that L occurred at very low frequency in Europe and as far away as Cuba. Big Y refined his haplogroup from predicted L-M20 to confirmed L-FGC36845. Just curious why this SNP doesn't appear on ISOGG's L tree? I also couldn't find it in Yfull's L tree. Is there an alternate name? Is it simply too new to be listed yet?

Am I understanding correctly that FGC36845 is a parallel branch to SK1414 under L-M349?

Upon requesting the BAM file, the response was something along the lines of "We are currently running a system-wide Big Y update and are not processing BAM file requests". As soon as that condition changes, we will send the BAM to FullGenomes for analysis. I'm really excited to learn more about this apparently quite unusual ~7000-year-old haplogroup.

[Anabasis]

If he is FGC36845 then he is M349. i reccomend you to have yfull analysis as far as there are more L1b samples on the tree. You can make yfull.analysis with vcf file.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

I know of an L-M349 in Portugal, and checking the Project: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-L/default.aspx?section=yresults L-M349 does indeed crop up in Spain and Portugal. It appears to have been in Europe some time where it is the most common Y hg L.

[GarethH]

Hi, I have a friend of Cuban paternal descent whose Y-DNA results put him in predicted L-M20. This was really shocking to me (when he told me L-M20, I said "L? L??? L?????"), as I had always thought that L was confined mostly to Pakistan and India, with some scattered members in Persia, Anatolia, or the Middle East... ...I didn't realize that L occurred at very low frequency in Europe and as far away as Cuba. Big Y refined his haplogroup from predicted L-M20 to confirmed L-FGC36845. Just curious why this SNP doesn't appear on ISOGG's L tree? I also couldn't find it in Yfull's L tree. Is there an alternate name? Is it simply too new to be listed yet?

Am I understanding correctly that FGC36845 is a parallel branch to SK1414 under L-M349?

Upon requesting the BAM file, the response was something along the lines of "We are currently running a system-wide Big Y update and are not processing BAM file requests". As soon as that condition changes, we will send the BAM to FullGenomes for analysis. I'm really excited to learn more about this apparently quite unusual ~7000-year-old haplogroup.


On the YFull tree, FGC36845 should connect YF11716 and YF08142 (currently both L-BY12542* = L-M349*) when the next version of the tree is published.
On the ISOGG tree, FGC36845 needs to be added to sit between M349 and Page113 (on my very long "to do" list).
In summary, L-M349 has 3 known branches:
L-FGC36845 - 7,000 years old, found all over Europe and the Middle East (one person claims Mongolian ancestry but I'm sceptical about that) - L-Page113 is a minor sub branch
L-B374 (Rhine-Danube-Volga) - age unknown (guesstimate 2,000 - 3,000 years), found in Central Europe (particularly just north of the Alps) and Volga Tatars
L-Y31183 - 1,300 years old, seen only in Lebanon
We also have one kit from Armenia who is negative for all three branches.

[Erik_Maher]

Thank you for your responses and the Project link. Fascinating, especially about the lone Armenian - and hoping another person turns up in his paragroup! So, let me see if I understand this correctly. While L is uncommon in Europe, L-M349 is the most common L in Europe.

Looking at the L Project, there appear to be about 25 confirmed or predicted FGC36845 members, about 35 confirmed or predicted B374 members, somewhere between 2 and 8 confirmed or predicted Y31183 members (I'm not sure how to interpret some of the Lebanon members' haplogroup listings), and about 22 confirmed or predicted SK1414 members at the current time. There are about 5 members from either Spain, Portugal, or Cuba listed under "L-M349 or L-FGC36845 not clustered". Quite interesting. We will send the VCF to Yfull for analysis as advised, and will upgrade the Yfull, and do additional Full Genomes analysis, once the BAM is available.

If any relatively-untested FGC36845 members of Iberian direct-male-line origin are interested in taking a Full Genomes Y Elite test, PM me. I'd like to contribute towards your test to try to discover more about FGC36845's phylogeny.

[dmana]

In the new version of the yfull tree, L-FGC36845 has TMRCA of 5500 ybp.

22507

https://www.yfull.com/tree/L/

It differs slightly from the 7000 ybp figure given before.

[GarethH]

In the new version of the yfull tree, L-FGC36845 has TMRCA of 5500 ybp.

22507

https://www.yfull.com/tree/L/

It differs slightly from the 7000 ybp figure given before.

Although there are now 3 kits grouped as L-FGC36845, YFull has a BAM file for only one of them so the age estimate is based on the SNPs for just that kit. It just happens that he has the lowest number of private SNPs of all the L-FGC36845 kits so I think the age is somewhat under estimated. The average number of private SNPs per kit is 47 which gives an estimated TMRCA of 6,800 ybp.

[PureNonsense]

Here is a map from 2014 of a proposed L-M349 route (https://www.scribd.com/doc/199077129/L-M349-L1b1a-Kenezy-Ancestral-Journey?fbclid=IwAR1pC-mvVbbIb9cMIx4pISzjHadOteryi9MWlJ88r7ARxX00GMeN9JNw Kxs). I don't know if the red lines are still supported by current evidence, but the green lines I believe are still supported. There is clearly a route from the Bay of Kutch area to Anatolia and then on to Europe. Here is another migratory map which shows a move from India to the Eastern Med area ca. 50 kya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_human_migrations#/media/File:Early_migrations_mercator.svg). There appears to have been a long residency in the Kutch area before a back migration although when this occurred is still a mystery to me. Please update me with the latest about L-M349.

[qallezan65]

My father's also Cuban, and he has five matches on 23andMe that are also Haplogroup L. Four of them are identified as L-M349, and one of them is L-M357.

[Rukha]

I have a Panjshiri Tajik match on 23andme whose Y-DNA is L-M349. Are there any other known Afghanistani L-M349 samples?

[Coldmountains]

I have a Panjshiri Tajik match on 23andme whose Y-DNA is L-M349. Are there any other known Afghanistani L-M349 samples?

It is definetly much less common in Afghanistan than L1c-M357 and L-M27 but one Tajik from Baghlan was L-M317 (upstream of M349 and possibly under it when deeper tested) in the Haber et al. study (2012)

[13thsilent]

Hello!

I recently had my y chromosome tested at FTDNA and to my utter surprise it turned out that I have the haplogroup FGC36845 (or rather its offshoot - L-FGC49137 on YFull.com). My family has lived in Poland for hundreds of years and there was nothing to suggest that I might have such a rare and mysterious haplogroup. FGC36845 in Europe occurs in a few isolated places, so it is difficult to determine the precise fate of the ancestors of that branch. Personally I have a hypothesis that they reached Europe (Italy/Switzerland) from the Mediterranean Sea from the Mesopotamia. Probably either as part of the Phoenician voyage or as legionaries of the Roman Empire who enlisted in the Near Eastern provinces and fought the Germans in the Swiss ("Raetia") territories. The results of TMRCA calculations between myself and testers from Iran/Kuwait (1800ybp), Italy/Spain (1400 ybp) and Switzerland (750 ybp) would also indicate the above. I have common ancestor (based on FTDNA calculations) about 1100 c.e. in Poland which probably means, that no later than that time our branch have reached Poland. FGC36845 is also noted in Spain, Italy, Switzerland and 2 people in Poland. Have you guys succeeded in finding out anything new about our haplogroup? :) On the forum I saw that Dmana wrote that he came to Sweden from Iraq? Could that mean that FGC36845 branch split about 3800 bce, part of it stayed in Iran, part of it went to Europe?

Does this pattern of TMRCA and the countries in which the testers reside suggest anything to you? In what year might the Middle Eastern and European branches have separated given the TMRCA? Why there are no flags on few of the branches?

54711

With warmest regards to fellow genetic genealogy researchers, Michael.

[dmana]

The origins of L-FGC36845 are definitely somewhere in west asia, but determining exactly where and how it spread for such a small group is not easy. I personally lean to an origin in Iran or the southern caucasus at the moment.

Most likely, different subgroups entered Europe at different times. L-PAGE116 for example seems to be a jewish subgroup, so an entry during Roman times seems likely to me. But there are other subgroups that porbably entered during the bronze/iron age. Yours could be one of those.

YFull don't have all the samples either. My closest match (and only BIG Y match as of now) is a Kuwaiti of Iranian origins. FTDNA estimates that our MRCA formed ~1500 years ago. Apart from that the only thing I know about my paternal ancestors is that they lived in the marshes of south Iraq for (at least a few) centuries.

[13thsilent]

I think that if some L branches would came to Europe in the Bronze Age or Iron Age then as a result of several thousand years of presence in Europe: 1) the number of people with this haplogroup in Europe would be much higher 2) there would be a greater diversity of its individual branches in EU countries. From the results on FTDNA, there are only small, individual and isolated clusters, mainly B374 ("Rhine-Danube-Volga cluster" - that came probably with Huns in V c.e.) and L-FGC36845. Therefore, it seems to me that the arrival of L-FGC36845 in Europe is rather late Roman times :)

[vettor]

I think that if some L branches would came to Europe in the Bronze Age or Iron Age then as a result of several thousand years of presence in Europe: 1) the number of people with this haplogroup in Europe would be much higher 2) there would be a greater diversity of its individual branches in EU countries. From the results on FTDNA, there are only small, individual and isolated clusters, mainly B374 ("Rhine-Danube-Volga cluster" - that came probably with Huns in V c.e.) and L-FGC36845. Therefore, it seems to me that the arrival of L-FGC36845 in Europe is rather late Roman times :)

there are a few L Ydna in Switzerland and other alpine countries

L-FTC17062

L-FTA18473

L-FT112156

L-FT111014

L-M349 from year 1412


North, South and East Tyrol has a few as well

[13thsilent]

there are a few L Ydna in Switzerland and other alpine countries

L-FTC17062

L-FTA18473

L-FT112156

L-FT111014

L-M349 from year 1412


North, South and East Tyrol has a few as well

Yes, as far as I know region of Switzerland/south Germany and Italy is some kind of L1b hub in Europe :)
L-FTC17062 - is 1700 c.e.
L-FTA18473 - is 1000 c.e.
L-FT112156 - is 1050 c.e.
L-FT111014 - is 700 c.e.

However, all of these branches are young in genealogical perspective, and unfortunately this does not hint at much regarding the fate of the "L" in these areas. Interestingly for some reason Italy and then Switzerland and southern Germany is relevant to this branch of the haplogroup, both B374 and L-FGC36845. This is strange, since these are two separate lineages and yet their greatest saturation covers the same relatively narrow area of Italy, Switzerland and southern Germany. It seems to me that in the case of L-FGC36845, in the context of the ever-closer TMRCA with samples from the Middle East, then Italy and then Switzerland, it may have to do with the Roman Empire's conflict with Germanic tribes (Allemani?) and the stationing of Roman legions there.

[vettor]

Yes, as far as I know region of Switzerland/south Germany and Italy is some kind of L1b hub in Europe :)
L-FTC17062 - is 1700 c.e.
L-FTA18473 - is 1000 c.e.
L-FT112156 - is 1050 c.e.
L-FT111014 - is 700 c.e.

However, all of these branches are young in genealogical perspective, and unfortunately this does not hint at much regarding the fate of the "L" in these areas. Interestingly for some reason Italy and then Switzerland and southern Germany is relevant to this branch of the haplogroup, both B374 and L-FGC36845. This is strange, since these are two separate lineages and yet their greatest saturation covers the same relatively narrow area of Italy, Switzerland and southern Germany. It seems to me that in the case of L-FGC36845, in the context of the ever-closer TMRCA with samples from the Middle East, then Italy and then Switzerland, it may have to do with the Roman Empire's conflict with Germanic tribes (Alleman?) and the stationing of Roman legions there.

IIRC ............I think one group stated origins from Dagestan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagestan

I think I need to revist the Tyrol dna group and the Alpine dna group in ftdna

or

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/zelger?iframe=yresults

or something in this site below

https://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure

[met1034]

I have a Panjshiri Tajik match on 23andme whose Y-DNA is L-M349. Are there any other known Afghanistani L-M349 samples?

Hi, yes my father is an Afghan from Ghazni and L-M349. If it's useful, his family is Sayyid (those who claim lineage to the Prophet Muhammed)

[Coldmountains]

Hi, yes my father is an Afghan from Ghazni and L-M349. If it's useful, his family is Sayyid (those who claim lineage to the Prophet Muhammed)

Hi this is super interesting. Where has hetested? It would be very interesting if you could do a full Y-DNA genome test by doing a WGS test from Nebula Genomics or Dante. These tests determine your haplogroup and subclade as well as the genetic distance from all other persons tested at a very high resolution, and the result can be added to the global Y-DNA tree at YFull.com (https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-M349/)