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A Norfolk L-M20
08-23-2016, 05:01 PM
Primarily seems to be Western Asian, but with so many turning up in Europe - along the Mediterranean, Italy, Portugal, and the Central European Rhine-Danube Cluster, any thoughts on how and when it 1) originated, and 2) distributed through Europe?

Anabasis
08-24-2016, 09:15 AM
In my opinion in middle neolethic it expanded from Levant to eastern Medeterenian zone toward inner and southern europe as a result of one of neolethic expansions. But we need to know whats the TMRCA of subclades under M349 which is unique to Europe to understand exact time.

GarethH
08-27-2016, 04:18 PM
The two L-M349 lines tested for Big Y (neither uploaded to Yfull, unfortunately) are separated by about 7,000 - 8,000 years so the branch itself is definitely Neolithic. It probably spread to Europe in more than one expansion, but numbers are so small as to be almost undetectable in academic research. Surprisingly, no L-M349 was found in the major study of Sardinian DNA (the Ls were all either L-L595 or L-M27). One L-M349 sample was found in a 2006 paper on Iran.

Caspian
08-27-2016, 09:33 PM
We should not forget that some L-M349 samples have certain Jewish ancestry. I agree with Gareth. L-M349 have more than one expansion to Europe.

A Norfolk L-M20
08-27-2016, 11:07 PM
We should not forget that some L-M349 samples have certain Jewish ancestry. I agree with Gareth. L-M349 have more than one expansion to Europe.

I have spotted on the 23andMe forums, that some L-M349 (many of who most probably do not test or record their Y-DNA further), do claim paternal Ashkenazi ancestry, although clearly by the spread, it is far from always the case.

dmana
06-16-2017, 05:50 PM
So recently I got a predicted L-M20 in FTDNA, and after purchasing the L-M20 SNP pack I got that I am positive for M349>FGC36845 but negative for both its subclades PAGES00116 & BY13005. When I look at the results in the Y-haplogroup L project it seems that those who got the same results are all Italian, Swiss/German and one Swedish guy, which is a bit of a surprise to me since my ancestors are Marsh Arabs from the Maysan Governorate. Thoguh it's possible that if more Arabs tested themselves they'll start to show up in this group.

I also have 2 STR matches with two Italian men (Genetic distance = 1 at 12 markers) though they haven't tested which subgroup they belong to. Is it safe to assume that they belong to the same group?

And does anyone know an estimate of the MRCA for L-FGC36845?

GarethH
06-16-2017, 09:20 PM
So recently I got a predicted L-M20 in FTDNA, and after purchasing the L-M20 SNP pack I got that I am positive for M349>FGC36845 but negative for both its subclades PAGES00116 & BY13005. When I look at the results in the Y-haplogroup L project it seems that those who got the same results are all Italian, Swiss/German and one Swedish guy, which is a bit of a surprise to me since my ancestors are Marsh Arabs from the Maysan Governorate. Thoguh it's possible that if more Arabs tested themselves they'll start to show up in this group.

I also have 2 STR matches with two Italian men (Genetic distance = 1 at 12 markers) though they haven't tested which subgroup they belong to. Is it safe to assume that they belong to the same group?

And does anyone know an estimate of the MRCA for L-FGC36845?

Thanks for testing. FGC36845 is just one level below M349 and is almost as old - so nearly 7,000 years old! The structure of the tree below this isn't clear yet, there seem to be lots of old and rare branches scattered over Europe and the Middle East. The two people you match 11/12 are close matches to each other at 67 markers but not to you. They may well belong to L-FGC36845 but a different subgroup.

Erik_Maher
02-21-2018, 05:35 AM
Hi, I have a friend of Cuban paternal descent whose Y-DNA results put him in predicted L-M20. This was really shocking to me (when he told me L-M20, I said "L? L??? L?????"), as I had always thought that L was confined mostly to Pakistan and India, with some scattered members in Persia, Anatolia, or the Middle East... ...I didn't realize that L occurred at very low frequency in Europe and as far away as Cuba. Big Y refined his haplogroup from predicted L-M20 to confirmed L-FGC36845. Just curious why this SNP doesn't appear on ISOGG's L tree? I also couldn't find it in Yfull's L tree. Is there an alternate name? Is it simply too new to be listed yet?

Am I understanding correctly that FGC36845 is a parallel branch to SK1414 under L-M349?

Upon requesting the BAM file, the response was something along the lines of "We are currently running a system-wide Big Y update and are not processing BAM file requests". As soon as that condition changes, we will send the BAM to FullGenomes for analysis. I'm really excited to learn more about this apparently quite unusual ~7000-year-old haplogroup.

Anabasis
02-21-2018, 06:23 AM
If he is FGC36845 then he is M349. i reccomend you to have yfull analysis as far as there are more L1b samples on the tree. You can make yfull.analysis with vcf file.

A Norfolk L-M20
02-21-2018, 04:27 PM
I know of an L-M349 in Portugal, and checking the Project: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-L/default.aspx?section=yresults L-M349 does indeed crop up in Spain and Portugal. It appears to have been in Europe some time where it is the most common Y hg L.

GarethH
02-21-2018, 08:56 PM
Hi, I have a friend of Cuban paternal descent whose Y-DNA results put him in predicted L-M20. This was really shocking to me (when he told me L-M20, I said "L? L??? L?????"), as I had always thought that L was confined mostly to Pakistan and India, with some scattered members in Persia, Anatolia, or the Middle East... ...I didn't realize that L occurred at very low frequency in Europe and as far away as Cuba. Big Y refined his haplogroup from predicted L-M20 to confirmed L-FGC36845. Just curious why this SNP doesn't appear on ISOGG's L tree? I also couldn't find it in Yfull's L tree. Is there an alternate name? Is it simply too new to be listed yet?

Am I understanding correctly that FGC36845 is a parallel branch to SK1414 under L-M349?

Upon requesting the BAM file, the response was something along the lines of "We are currently running a system-wide Big Y update and are not processing BAM file requests". As soon as that condition changes, we will send the BAM to FullGenomes for analysis. I'm really excited to learn more about this apparently quite unusual ~7000-year-old haplogroup.


On the YFull tree, FGC36845 should connect YF11716 and YF08142 (currently both L-BY12542* = L-M349*) when the next version of the tree is published.
On the ISOGG tree, FGC36845 needs to be added to sit between M349 and Page113 (on my very long "to do" list).
In summary, L-M349 has 3 known branches:
L-FGC36845 - 7,000 years old, found all over Europe and the Middle East (one person claims Mongolian ancestry but I'm sceptical about that) - L-Page113 is a minor sub branch
L-B374 (Rhine-Danube-Volga) - age unknown (guesstimate 2,000 - 3,000 years), found in Central Europe (particularly just north of the Alps) and Volga Tatars
L-Y31183 - 1,300 years old, seen only in Lebanon
We also have one kit from Armenia who is negative for all three branches.

Erik_Maher
02-22-2018, 01:26 AM
Thank you for your responses and the Project link. Fascinating, especially about the lone Armenian - and hoping another person turns up in his paragroup! So, let me see if I understand this correctly. While L is uncommon in Europe, L-M349 is the most common L in Europe.

Looking at the L Project, there appear to be about 25 confirmed or predicted FGC36845 members, about 35 confirmed or predicted B374 members, somewhere between 2 and 8 confirmed or predicted Y31183 members (I'm not sure how to interpret some of the Lebanon members' haplogroup listings), and about 22 confirmed or predicted SK1414 members at the current time. There are about 5 members from either Spain, Portugal, or Cuba listed under "L-M349 or L-FGC36845 not clustered". Quite interesting. We will send the VCF to Yfull for analysis as advised, and will upgrade the Yfull, and do additional Full Genomes analysis, once the BAM is available.

If any relatively-untested FGC36845 members of Iberian direct-male-line origin are interested in taking a Full Genomes Y Elite test, PM me. I'd like to contribute towards your test to try to discover more about FGC36845's phylogeny.

dmana
04-04-2018, 06:31 PM
In the new version of the yfull tree, L-FGC36845 has TMRCA of 5500 ybp.

22507

https://www.yfull.com/tree/L/

It differs slightly from the 7000 ybp figure given before.

GarethH
04-04-2018, 07:24 PM
In the new version of the yfull tree, L-FGC36845 has TMRCA of 5500 ybp.

22507

https://www.yfull.com/tree/L/

It differs slightly from the 7000 ybp figure given before.

Although there are now 3 kits grouped as L-FGC36845, YFull has a BAM file for only one of them so the age estimate is based on the SNPs for just that kit. It just happens that he has the lowest number of private SNPs of all the L-FGC36845 kits so I think the age is somewhat under estimated. The average number of private SNPs per kit is 47 which gives an estimated TMRCA of 6,800 ybp.

PureNonsense
04-25-2020, 03:11 PM
Here is a map from 2014 of a proposed L-M349 route (https://www.scribd.com/doc/199077129/L-M349-L1b1a-Kenezy-Ancestral-Journey?fbclid=IwAR1pC-mvVbbIb9cMIx4pISzjHadOteryi9MWlJ88r7ARxX00GMeN9JNw Kxs). I don't know if the red lines are still supported by current evidence, but the green lines I believe are still supported. There is clearly a route from the Bay of Kutch area to Anatolia and then on to Europe. Here is another migratory map which shows a move from India to the Eastern Med area ca. 50 kya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_human_migrations#/media/File:Early_migrations_mercator.svg). There appears to have been a long residency in the Kutch area before a back migration although when this occurred is still a mystery to me. Please update me with the latest about L-M349.

qallezan65
02-15-2021, 10:38 PM
My father's also Cuban, and he has five matches on 23andMe that are also Haplogroup L. Four of them are identified as L-M349, and one of them is L-M357.

Rukha
06-19-2021, 09:11 PM
I have a Panjshiri Tajik match on 23andme whose Y-DNA is L-M349. Are there any other known Afghanistani L-M349 samples?

Coldmountains
06-19-2021, 09:21 PM
I have a Panjshiri Tajik match on 23andme whose Y-DNA is L-M349. Are there any other known Afghanistani L-M349 samples?

It is definetly much less common in Afghanistan than L1c-M357 and L-M27 but one Tajik from Baghlan was L-M317 (upstream of M349 and possibly under it when deeper tested) in the Haber et al. study (2012)