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Smilelover
08-23-2016, 09:29 PM
hello .. I am from Yemen south of Arabian peninsula
my result was R-M173

nevegen predictor at 67 marker gives me probability of R1b 85% and R1a 15%
111 marker gives 36% as R1b

i noticed that familytreedna projects i grouped under M420>YP4141>YP5018 Ax1
as my close match is R1a M420

my close matches is from turkey 4 genetic distance at 67 marker
then also from turkey 2 G.D t 25 marker

near match results from Iraq and Qater

my result is still in red means non confirmed because i did not do any SNP tests yet

my question is if all my matches is classified as R1a .. so i am the same .. or there is a possibility that i am R1b

is it possible that a matches could be in two different haplogroups ?

thank you
M11251

lgmayka
08-23-2016, 10:24 PM
i noticed that familytreedna projects i grouped under M420>YP4141>YP5018 Ax1
Kit M8363 has Y-STRs (markers) fairly similar to yours. He took the Big Y test, and ended up in R-YP5018, a subclade of R-YP4141 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP5018/), which is in turn a subclade of R1a.

If you wish, you can order an individual SNP test for YP4141 for $39, to verify your classification. But ideally, you would order the Big Y (perhaps the next time a discount or coupon is available) and get yourself onto YFull's haplotree. Because the R-YP4141 branch is so sparse, your entry will probably force the definition of a new subclade.

Smilelover
08-23-2016, 10:36 PM
i better wait for the big Y discount , because either way positive or negative i will be curious to know more
is it possible to have different haplogroup than my match
why haplogroup predictor confuses me sometime Q r1b, r1a ^_^

lgmayka
08-23-2016, 11:30 PM
i better wait for the big Y discount , because either way positive or negative i will be curious to know more
Excellent attitude! Yes, order the Big Y the next time a discount or coupon is available (certainly during the American holiday season of November-December, if not earlier).

is it possible to have different haplogroup than my match
It is possible that you do not belong to R-YP5018. But in my opinion, you definitely belong to the parent R-YP4141, which separated from the rest of R1a over 18,000 years ago (https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP4141/)!


why haplogroup predictor confuses me sometime Q r1b, r1a ^_^
Your subclade is so rare that many predictors have not taken it into account at all.

MfA
08-24-2016, 05:37 AM
The Political Agency of Kurds as an Ethnic Group in Late Medieval South Arabia


Kurds began to arrive to South Arabia as soldiers for the Ayyubid conquest at the end of the sixth/twelfth century, and continued in this military role for the Rasulid dynasty for the next few centuries. Over the course of this period, references to Kurds in chronicles indicate their increasing autonomy as independent mercenaries who rebelled against the Rasulids and aligned with the northern Zaydis. At the same time, they are also shown to have established a prominent community in the central highlands, which eventually bifurcated, merged with the family of the Zaydi Imam through marriage, and then seemingly disappeared from chronicles altogether. This article examines more closely the role of ethnicity in the promotion and maintenance of the Kurds as an influential group in the late medieval political landscape of South Arabia alongside other ethnic groups such as Arabs and Turks, as well as why the apparent deterioration of the Kurds’ ethnic cohesion appears to have led to the end of reports about them in the Yemeni historical record at the end of the eighth/fourteenth century.

http://hw.oeaw.ac.at/0xc1aa500e_0x00340283.pdf

Gravetto-Danubian
08-24-2016, 06:14 AM
The Political Agency of Kurds as an Ethnic Group in Late Medieval South Arabia

http://hw.oeaw.ac.at/0xc1aa500e_0x00340283.pdf

Will have a read.
Bytw, which site did you obtain these maps from http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7057-The-genetic-history-of-Ice-Age-Europe&p=155253#post155253

MfA
08-24-2016, 07:48 AM
Will have a read.
Bytw, which site did you obtain these maps from http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7057-The-genetic-history-of-Ice-Age-Europe&p=155253#post155253

searched one in google image search, the rest did pop up.

Smilelover
08-24-2016, 12:48 PM
The Political Agency of Kurds as an Ethnic Group in Late Medieval South Arabia



http://hw.oeaw.ac.at/0xc1aa500e_0x00340283.pdf

thank you for the book , i will read it carefully and discuss it later on

raspberry
08-24-2016, 12:53 PM
hello .. I am from Yemen south of Arabian peninsula
my result was R-M173

nevegen predictor at 67 marker gives me probability of R1b 85% and R1a 15%
111 marker gives 36% as R1b

i noticed that familytreedna projects i grouped under M420>YP4141>YP5018 Ax1
as my close match is R1a M420

my close matches is from turkey 4 genetic distance at 67 marker
then also from turkey 2 G.D t 25 marker

near match results from Iraq and Qater

my result is still in red means non confirmed because i did not do any SNP tests yet

my question is if all my matches is classified as R1a .. so i am the same .. or there is a possibility that i am R1b

is it possible that a matches could be in two different haplogroups ?

thank you
M11251

Hello, I am an Arab from the Bani Shayban (from central Arabia) in Turkey and also belong to R1b. Maybe this could interest you: Rodriguez-Flores et al. (2016) Indigenous Arabs are descendants of the earliest split from ancient Eurasian populations
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2016/01/11/gr.191478.115

raspberry
08-24-2016, 12:57 PM
The Political Agency of Kurds as an Ethnic Group in Late Medieval South Arabia



http://hw.oeaw.ac.at/0xc1aa500e_0x00340283.pdf

Could you please stop making every Arab who gets R1b as Result to a Kurd? R1b is older than the Arab and Kurdish people. By the way the most common haplogroup of the Kurds is J2. And I also know why you declare every R1b Arab as a Kurd: You connect R1b as typical Indo-European wich is totally wrong because it is too old to be Indo-european!

MfA
08-24-2016, 01:00 PM
Could you please stop making every Arab who gets R1b as Result to a Kurd? R1b is older than the Arab and Kurdish people. By the way the most common haplogroup of the Kurds is J2. And I also know why you declare every R1b Arab as a Kurd: You connect R1b as typical Indo-European wich is wrong because it is too old to be Indo_european!

He's predicted R1a not R1b, His closest matches are Kurds from Turkey and which is different subclade than Qatari R1a*. I don't want to get in to discussion with you anything about genetics.

raspberry
08-24-2016, 01:04 PM
He's predicted R1a not R1b, His closest matches are Kurds from Turkey and which is different subclade than Qatari R1a*. I don't want to get in to discussion with you anything about genetics.

He isnt. He is grouped but that is not definite. Haplogroup predictors on the internet also said that I most likely belong to haplogroup Q, R1b or R1a (now wonder, all of these haplogroups are undergroups of haplogroup P). Finally after a Backbone test I was asigned to R1b. Where does he says that Kurds are his closests matches? He says people from Turkey are his matches.
-
I would recommend you to join the R-Arabia group on ftdna: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-arabia/about

Artmar
08-24-2016, 03:32 PM
He isnt. He is grouped but that is not definite. Haplogroup predictos on the internet also said that I most likely belong to haplogroup Q, R1b or R1a (now wonder, all of these haplogroups are undergroups of haplogroup P). Finally after a Backbone test I was asigned to R1b.

He is R1a, because one of his matches at Y-25 is a confirmed M420. It's enough of markers for no overlap with R1b at all. Moreover, he shows some of the innovations that are typical for Big-Y tested YP5018, like DYS454=12.

Predictors aren't prepared for some, early-divergent rare cases. We are. Don't imply that we are using them.

raspberry
08-24-2016, 06:44 PM
He is R1a, because one of his matches at Y-25 is a confirmed M420. It's enough of markers for no overlap with R1b at all. Moreover, he shows some of the innovations that are typical for Big-Y tested YP5018, like DYS454=12.

Predictors aren't prepared for some, early-divergent rare cases. We are. Don't imply that we are using them.

Yes but that still doesnt make him a Kurd. Thats the point.
11166

Morges
08-24-2016, 06:50 PM
Tested with Igenea? lol

vettor
08-24-2016, 06:53 PM
Hello, I am an Arab from the Bani Shayban (from central Arabia) in Turkey and also belong to R1b. Maybe this could interest you: Rodriguez-Flores et al. (2016) Indigenous Arabs are descendants of the earliest split from ancient Eurasian populations
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2016/01/11/gr.191478.115

If you read fully into this and other papers you will find that the Indigenous Arabs are mostly from Yemen areas and that the Omani and the others that sit on the south side of the persian Gulf come mostly from north of the Zargos mountains .

I do not know if Arabs and Saudis are the same ethnicity , but I am currently looking into the saudi royals if they originate from ancient Persians that fled from Alexander's Macedonian armies

MfA
08-24-2016, 07:09 PM
Yes but that still doesnt make him a Kurd. Thats the point.
11166

Noone said he's Kurd, there're no Kurds in Yemen today or last couple of centuries. He's obviously a Yemeni Arab. One having a medieval Kurd or some Iranian YDNA doesn't make anyone of that. Ethnicity is more than just Y haplogroup. But this line of Y-HG has more likely arrived to Yemen via Ayyubidis and later Kurdish incursions into the region. R1a* is most frequent in Iran and Kurds, it's still less than 5% overall quite rare. According to my numbers 15% R1a* in Kurds belong to this subclade (5% Z283, 80% Z93). This line has nothing to do with Indo-Europeans. It's very early ANE related incursion in to Iran and therabouts, Qatari and Zagros R1a* diverged something like 5kya.

raspberry
08-24-2016, 07:19 PM
If you read fully into this and other papers you will find that the Indigenous Arabs are mostly from Yemen areas and that the Omani and the others that sit on the south side of the persian Gulf come mostly from north of the Zargos mountains .

I do not know if Arabs and Saudis are the same ethnicity , but I am currently looking into the saudi royals if they originate from ancient Persians that fled from Alexander's Macedonian armies
The genetics of the Saudi royals would also interest me. Some people say that they belong to y-DNA Haplogroup T, what I do not believe. How do you make the conclusion that they fled from Alexander´s Macedonian army?
As far as I know they belong to the Bani Hanifa (the tribe has a bad reputation, because during the times of Prophet Mohamed, a man from the Hanifa tribe named Musaylimah al Hanifi declared his self also a Prophet although he was not. He has also a very known nisba: "al-Kidhab"- means the lier), a subgroup of Bakr ibn Wa´il. This is from Wikipedia: "However claims continue to be made that one such clan mentioned by Ibn Sayyar were the Mrudah, among whom later appeared Saudi Arabia's current rulers, the clan of Al Saud. Most of these clans mentioned by Ibn Sayyar, however, today claim membership of the large tribe of 'Anizzah, or to Wa'il, the purported patriarch of both 'Annizah and Hanifah. "
@Morges: Yes, typical Igenea "style".. You get haplogroup E and they say you are a berber (as an example).

MfA
08-24-2016, 07:41 PM
BTW GD between M11251 and 461580 Kurd from Dêrsim is just 3 @Y37-STR, at least 17 generations ~510 years TMRCA according to KLAD (http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=3564.0) calculator.

Abd.H
08-24-2016, 08:02 PM
I do not know if Arabs and Saudis are the same ethnicity , but I am currently looking into the saudi royals if they originate from ancient Persians that fled from Alexander's Macedonian armies


The genetics of the Saudi royals would also interest me. Some people say that they belong to y-DNA Haplogroup T, what I do not believe. How do you make the conclusion that they fled from Alexander´s Macedonian army?

According to information which I had from many Arabian genetic sites , the Royal families in both Bahrain and Kuwait belong to Haplogroup T ,but Saudi royal family is not confirmed to have haplogroup T ,anyway the majority of `Anazzah tribe's results which is the same tribe of the Saudi royal family belong to Haplogroup J ,not T .

Gravetto-Danubian
08-24-2016, 10:36 PM
I do not know if Arabs and Saudis are the same ethnicity , but I am currently looking into the saudi royals if they originate from ancient Persians that fled from Alexander's Macedonian armies

How ??
Saudi Royal families didn't even exist in 300 BC

Agamemnon
08-24-2016, 10:55 PM
The Banu 'Anezzah are J1-ZS2003.

Smilelover
08-26-2016, 03:03 PM
Could you please stop making every Arab who gets R1b as Result to a Kurd? R1b is older than the Arab and Kurdish people. By the way the most common haplogroup of the Kurds is J2. And I also know why you declare every R1b Arab as a Kurd: You connect R1b as typical Indo-European wich is totally wrong because it is too old to be Indo-european!


Hello my friend
Looks we have the same story brother
Although you grouped under R1b
Me still dont have confirmed SNP
But mostly R1a as my matches
I read many stories regarding difficulties in STR interpretation. I will order Big Y to see the end of the story

What ever the result is. We still arab
The science of genealogy is still growing
We need more peoples to perform tests
As we still rare subclades

If i and 50 person of my tribe tested positive of R 173
The equation will be inverted and our Turkish match will have yemeni origin


Kurds comes in different haplogroups
Arab is the same

My match have hundred of years in turkish culture
The same for me .. in arabian area

Turkey was the place of ottoman who rules all muslim countries

And travels were to both sides
My matched could be arab lived in turkey or the opposite the same

The most important to me is to know whos related to me in this big world ..

If i have turkish .. Kurdish .. african .. arabian
Roots .. will change nothing as we all at the end
Sons of Adam ..

Smilelover
08-26-2016, 03:11 PM
The Political Agency of Kurds as an Ethnic Group in Late Medieval South Arabia



http://hw.oeaw.ac.at/0xc1aa500e_0x00340283.pdf

I read the article .. and its a possibility
Although my tripe live in eastern south arabia Hadhramout the land of Kindah ( a famous tripe was a kingdom before ) and ruslism was in sanaa and taaiz
Western yemen called Northern yemen

But also still a possibility
Thanks for the paper
I will search if any of my tribe history support this
But also we should consider what i said befor if the opposit possible

Smilelover
08-26-2016, 03:12 PM
He isnt. He is grouped but that is not definite. Haplogroup predictors on the internet also said that I most likely belong to haplogroup Q, R1b or R1a (now wonder, all of these haplogroups are undergroups of haplogroup P). Finally after a Backbone test I was asigned to R1b. Where does he says that Kurds are his closests matches? He says people from Turkey are his matches.
-
I would recommend you to join the R-Arabia group on ftdna: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-arabia/about


I already joined thank you

raspberry
08-26-2016, 03:39 PM
Hello my friend
Looks we have the same story brother
Although you grouped under R1b
Me still dont have confirmed SNP
But mostly R1a as my matches
I read many stories regarding difficulties in STR interpretation. I will order Big Y to see the end of the story

What ever the result is. We still arab
The science of genealogy is still growing
We need more peoples to perform tests
As we still rare subclades

If i and 50 person of my tripe tested positive of R 173
The equation will be inverted and our Turkish match will have yemeni origin


Kurds comes in different haplogroups
Arab is the same

My match have hundred of years in turkish culture
The same for me .. in arabian area

Turkey was the place of ottoman who rules all muslim countries

And travels were to both sides
My matched could be arab lived in turkey or the opposite the same

The most important to me is to know whos related to me in this big world ..

If i have turkish .. Kurdish .. african .. arabian
Roots .. will change nothing as we all at the end
Sons of Adam ..
At least you have matches. I have no matches at all and so it is hard to get an idea of my origins. Yes at the end we are all sons of adam. But there are many famous Arab R (al-Husseini family (Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, the Grandmufti of Jerusalem who cooperated with the nazis during world war 2) of Palestine, Izzet ad Duri etc.) people.

Smilelover
08-26-2016, 04:22 PM
Thare are many arabs on r1a and R1b i saw in R arabia project and other arab projects

There are near matches to me 5 to 8 G.D
Haddad from iraq and lebanon
AlKatib from iraq
Ali from qatar
One from U.A.E
In addition to the more near 2 matches from turkey

I would be happy to contact them but i do not know how

Try to do advance search at all levels on FTdna Home
Also try Y search



As familytreedna dont show matchs of more than 4 genetic distance

Smilelover
08-26-2016, 04:28 PM
Is it possible that someone with 7 genetic distances
Be more relative to one at 4 at the level of 67 marker

What if upgrading to 111 shows the more distant have more matches at the rest of markers

Or some markers have more chance to mutate doesnot counted

I personally observe some one who is more near to me at 25 marker become more distant than another at 67

I am still learning and i appreciate if an expert explain to me

vettor
08-26-2016, 05:24 PM
The genetics of the Saudi royals would also interest me. Some people say that they belong to y-DNA Haplogroup T, what I do not believe. How do you make the conclusion that they fled from Alexander´s Macedonian army?
.

I came to a conclusion that since no Ydna T in the arabian peninsula under Saudi or Kuwaits and other is older than 2000 years , then they must have come from north of the Zargos Mountains.

I refer to the yfull dating system.

We also have the recent paper of a few years ago which states ..............100% of Kuwaitis are of Persian descent.

It is also stated that the T origins are
between Western and Southwest Eurasian Plate[2][3]
The Eurasian plate does not include Arabian peninsula nor India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Plate

vettor
08-26-2016, 05:25 PM
How ??
Saudi Royal families didn't even exist in 300 BC

so you agree, the saudi Royals came from elsewhere

Smilelover
08-29-2016, 01:26 PM
i ordered upgrade to Big Y and will come back after the result comes

thanks for all the comments

best wishes to all

Ahaddad
09-02-2016, 06:47 AM
I'am Haddad the R1a*, I and my dad makes dna test, we are rare lineage of r1a, just found in Middle East, Iraq, Oman, Turkey, Iran, UAE and Qatar. By the occurrences I believed that's orgin of this haplotype are from Persian gulf.

I think we have same cluster right? Someone can help

Here my markers
13 23 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 31 12-12-15-17 10 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 35-37 12 11

Michał
09-02-2016, 09:44 AM
I'am Haddad the R1a*, I and my dad makes dna test, we are rare lineage of r1a, just found in Middle East, Iraq, Oman, Turkey, Iran, UAE and Qatar. By the occurrences I believed that's orgin of this haplotype are from Persian gulf.

I think we have same cluster right? Someone can help

Here my markers
13 23 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 31 12-12-15-17 10 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 35-37 12 11
In the R1a project at FTDNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?vgroup=r1a&section=yresults), where I am one of the administrators, you are classified as a member of clade YP5018. More specifically, you are assigned to category "1. M420>YP4141>YP5018-A2-x (Big Y needed)", which means that you are considered a member of a specific lineage under YP5018 (currently described in our project as YP5018-A2) that so far includes only two members of family Haddad (originating from Lebanon and Iraq). There is also a closely related lineage YP5018-A1 that includes haplotypes from Turkey/Kurdistan and Yemen. All remaining known members of clade YP5018 are from Near East, too. According to YFull, the most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all known YP5018 members lived about 2700 years ago, but I suspect this was a bit earlier (probably between 3500 and 3000 years ago). Importantly, the closest relatives of that Near Eastern clade are from Europe, and more specifically from Germany, but this is just one family (Yeager/Jäger) that, unfortunately, has not joined our project yet and was not tested for any relevant SNPs downstream of R1a (ie. downstream of M420), so their relationship to clade YP5018 is assessed based on STRs only (but I would, nevertheless, consider this relationship quite secure).

This entire group (ie. YP5018 and Yeagers) forms a distinct (though yet unnamed) subclade under YP4141 (let's call it YP4141-A) that is parallel to another Eurasian (or Near-Eastern/European) subclade under YP4141 (or under R1a2) named YP4132. Clade YP4132 is quite old (at least 5-6 ky old) and includes a relatively large (though very young) Western European subclade YP4132 and a Near Eastern lineage that is so far represented by only one FTDNA customer of Arab ancestry (kit 203239 from the R-Arabia project; unfortunately, he seems to be unwilling to join our R1a project). See this old scheme of mine that illustrates the structure of the entire clade R1a2 (R-YP4141): http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=183&t=1620&start=07. This scheme is a bit outdated (so YP4141-A2 corresponds to a more recently discovered subclade YP5018) and in Polish, but the basic information should be easy to comprehend.

The only Y-DNA SNP test that makes sense in your case is NGS, which means either Big Y (available at FTDNA) or any other NGS-based test available elsewhere (like the Y Elite test offered by Full Genomes Corp). Recently, forumer Bazqamah from cluster YP5018-A1 has ordered Big Y for his kit M11251 (see the above posts), so ordering Big Y for your YP5018-A2 lineage should not only verify the potential relationship between these two groupings but will also help us estimate their TMRCA age (ie. the time to the most recent common ancestor). Of course, having at least two Big Y results for both YP5018-A1 and YP5018-A2 would be an optimal situation in this case. Another important task is to convince the members of family Yeager (who stay out of our project) to order at least one Big Y test for themselves (or at least to join our project and let us contribute to their Big Y test). This would help us establish the exact relationship between this European/German lineage and your Near Eastern clade YP5018.

Ahaddad
09-02-2016, 02:26 PM
In the R1a project at FTDNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?vgroup=r1a&section=yresults), where I am one of the administrators, you are classified as a member of clade YP5018. More specifically, you are assigned to category "1. M420>YP4141>YP5018-A2-x (Big Y needed)", which means that you are considered a member of a specific lineage under YP5018 (currently described in our project as YP5018-A2) that so far includes only two members of family Haddad (originating from Lebanon and Iraq). There is also a closely related lineage YP5018-A1 that includes haplotypes from Turkey/Kurdistan and Yemen. All remaining known members of clade YP5018 are from Near East, too. According to YFull, the most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all known YP5018 members lived about 2700 years ago, but I suspect this was a bit earlier (probably between 3500 and 3000 years ago). Importantly, the closest relatives of that Near Eastern clade are from Europe, and more specifically from Germany, but this is just one family (Yeager/Jäger) that, unfortunately, has not joined our project yet and was not tested for any relevant SNPs downstream of R1a (ie. downstream of M420), so their relationship to clade YP5018 is assessed based on STRs only (but I would, nevertheless, consider this relationship quite secure).

This entire group (ie. YP5018 and Yeagers) forms a distinct (though yet unnamed) subclade under YP4141 (let's call it YP4141-A) that is parallel to another Eurasian (or Near-Eastern/European) subclade under YP4141 (or under R1a2) named YP4132. Clade YP4132 is quite old (at least 5-6 ky old) and includes a relatively large (though very young) Western European subclade YP4132 and a Near Eastern lineage that is so far represented by only one FTDNA customer of Arab ancestry (kit 203239 from the R-Arabia project; unfortunately, he seems to be unwilling to join our R1a project). See this old scheme of mine that illustrates the structure of the entire clade R1a2 (R-YP4141): http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=183&t=1620&start=07. This scheme is a bit outdated (so YP4141-A2 corresponds to a more recently discovered subclade YP5018) and in Polish, but the basic information should be easy to comprehend.

The only Y-DNA SNP test that makes sense in your case is NGS, which means either Big Y (available at FTDNA) or any other NGS-based test available elsewhere (like the Y Elite test offered by Full Genomes Corp). Recently, forumer Bazqamah from cluster YP5018-A1 has ordered Big Y for his kit M11251 (see the above posts), so ordering Big Y for your YP5018-A2 lineage should not only verify the potential relationship between these two groupings but will also help us estimate their TMRCA age (ie. the time to the most recent common ancestor). Of course, having at least two Big Y results for both YP5018-A1 and YP5018-A2 would be an optimal situation in this case. Another important task is to convince the members of family Yeager (who stay out of our project) to order at least one Big Y test for themselves (or at least to join our project and let us contribute to their Big Y test). This would help us establish the exact relationship between this European/German lineage and your Near Eastern clade YP5018.

So, my subclade is in same type of Yemeni and other middle easterners? You think my branch are from Middle East? Possibly from Arabia or Arab r1a?

ADW_1981
09-02-2016, 02:32 PM
I'am Haddad the R1a*, I and my dad makes dna test, we are rare lineage of r1a, just found in Middle East, Iraq, Oman, Turkey, Iran, UAE and Qatar. By the occurrences I believed that's orgin of this haplotype are from Persian gulf.

I think we have same cluster right? Someone can help

Here my markers
13 23 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 31 12-12-15-17 10 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 35-37 12 11

I think you mean your subclade YP5018 is old or at least unique to the Middle East. The SNP immediately above YP4141, which you are also positive for, appears to be European. Based on all evidence, the origin is the north, not the south.

Ahaddad
09-02-2016, 02:48 PM
I think you mean your subclade YP5018 is old or at least unique to the Middle East. The SNP immediately above YP4141, which you are also positive for, appears to be European. Based on all evidence, the origin is the north, not the south.

You think my origin are middle eastern or European? I don't understand

Smilelover
09-02-2016, 10:13 PM
i think i can explain what my friend AHADDAD means
it is obvious that origin of R1a is north and so that Yp4141 but as mentioned earlier .. yp4141 is more than 18000 year

what i and my friend haddad ask if any of its subclades settled in central arabia or hijaz or yemen and then migrated the opposite direction returned back to turkey or iraq as J1 for example there is migration from north to south and then from south to north then back to south ( i read this in arabian forum )

the possibility that we split from same origin is more means we have common ancestor in iraq some descendants goes to turkey .. others to yemen
and some remain in iraq

Michał
09-02-2016, 10:51 PM
i think i can explain what my friend AHADDAD means
it is obvious that origin of R1a is north and so that Yp4141 but as mentioned earlier .. yp4141 is more than 18000 year

what i and my friend haddad ask if any of its subclades settled in central arabia or hijaz or yemen and then migrated the opposite direction returned back to turkey or iraq as J1 for example there is migration from north to south and then from south to north then back to south ( i read this in arabian forum )

the possibility that we split from same origin is more means we have common ancestor in iraq some descendants goes to turkey .. others to yemen
and some remain in iraq
I'm afraid we are yet unable to answer these questions. We are on a very early stage of our investigation and much more is needed to be known about the exact phylogenetic structure of clade YP5018 and about the geographical distribution of all major subclades before we will be able to make any conclusions regarding the most likely scenario for the origin and subsequent migrations of particular lineages. This is also why it is so important for the known (or strongly predicted) members of clade YP5018 to be thoroughly tested, preferably using the very informative NGS-based tests.

Michał
09-02-2016, 11:33 PM
The SNP immediately above YP4141, which you are also positive for, appears to be European. Based on all evidence, the origin is the north, not the south.
I agree that it seems quite likely that YP4141 came to the Middle East from the North, but it is still not clear whether this was indeed a migration from Europe (Eastern Europe?) or maybe rather from Central Asia (through Iran). IMO, the data available to us don't seem to be conclusive yet.

Today, the most commonly accepted hypothesis is that our R1 ancestors lived somewhere in a region encompassing Siberia and Central Asia, from where the descending lineages migrated mostly west (towards Eastern Europe) and south-west (towards Middle East). Importantly, its seems still possible that both these routes were used not only by R1b (where separate migration pathways for R1b-M269 and R1b-V88 seem to be commonly accepted), but also by R1a. For example, the only known cases of R1a-YP4132* and R1a-YP1272* are from the Gulf Region and Egypt, respectively. Thus, although I would slightly favor the "European scenario" for both R1a-YP4141 (R1a2) and YP1272 (R1a1b), the alternative routes cannot be ruled out yet.

Smilelover
09-02-2016, 11:34 PM
thank you very much Mr Michal , i like your informative detailed answers
your previous comment show me the complete picture .. and the second give me the summary and conclusion
thank you very much again

my result of big Y will come in last of October and also family finder

and hopefully will give us a more clear view

^_^

Michał
09-03-2016, 12:02 AM
You think my origin are middle eastern or European? I don't understand
Well, one could say that we all are of African origin, and this would be definitely correct. One could even say that we all originate from the ocean, and this would be true, as well. ;)

Seriously, it all depends how deeply you reach into your ancestry. Your purely paternal ancestors migrated a lot, and it seems that after leaving Africa they have already visited the Middle East once (about 60,000 - 50,000 years ago), though they decided to travel further east (towards South or South-East Asia) and then north (towards Siberia) and then again west or south-west before coming to the Middle East again. We still miss many details about those ancient migrations, but you can significantly contribute to our understanding of that process (especially regarding the last 2-3 millennia) by testing your Y-DNA as thoroughly as possible.

Ahaddad
09-03-2016, 06:22 AM
Well, one could say that we all are of African origin, and this would be definitely correct. One could even say that we all originate from the ocean, and this would be true, as well. ;)

Seriously, it all depends how deeply you reach into your ancestry. Your purely paternal ancestors migrated a lot, and it seems that after leaving Africa they have already visited the Middle East once (about 60,000 - 50,000 years ago), though they decided to travel further east (towards South or South-East Asia) and then north (towards Siberia) and then again west or south-west before coming to the Middle East again. We still miss many details about those ancient migrations, but you can significantly contribute to our understanding of that process (especially regarding the last 2-3 millennia) by testing your Y-DNA as thoroughly as possible.

Yes, i just talk about our cluster, not origin of r1a, about our cluster I think is in Middle East dont know if in north Middle East like Iraq, turkey, Syria or Iran or in south Middle East like Arabian peninsula, I mean our cluster is middle eastern because it's very very rare in Europeans and the few tests that we see about our cluster is in Middle East, I talk with underhill and he tested a lot Europeans and no sing and found examples just in Oman, UAE, Iran and Turkey.. Now we see also in Iraq, Qatar and Yemen.. This for me is clear middle eastern sign in this haplotype.

Theramster
09-04-2016, 04:45 PM
I agree that it seems quite likely that YP4141 came to the Middle East from the North, but it is still not clear whether this was indeed a migration from Europe (Eastern Europe?) or maybe rather from Central Asia (through Iran). IMO, the data available to us don't seem to be conclusive yet.

Today, the most commonly accepted hypothesis is that our R1 ancestors lived somewhere in a region encompassing Siberia and Central Asia, from where the descending lineages migrated mostly west (towards Eastern Europe) and south-west (towards Middle East). Importantly, its seems still possible that both these routes were used not only by R1b (where separate migration pathways for R1b-M269 and R1b-V88 seem to be commonly accepted), but also by R1a. For example, the only known cases of R1a-YP4132* and R1a-YP1272* are from the Gulf Region and Egypt, respectively. Thus, although I would slightly favor the "European scenario" for both R1a-YP4141 (R1a2) and YP1272 (R1a1b), the alternative routes cannot be ruled out yet.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to speak of R1a2. But R1a1b is interesting because it's very old, found in Egypt only so far, and all known downstream subclades are younger and found in Europe. (with the exception of Tunisia). So the interesting question is whether there was ever a reverse migration back to Europe at a later date or its YP1272* representatives just went extinct in Europe/Asia and only younger subclades endured. It makes the whole thing very exciting.

Ahaddad
09-05-2016, 01:32 AM
So my cluster are from Middle East? Because is rare and most tested are from Middle East, don't forget that middle eastern have low data also maybe we found more.

Theramster
09-05-2016, 02:23 AM
So my cluster are from Middle East? Because is rare and most tested are from Middle East, don't forget that middle eastern have low data also maybe we found more.

Again I'm not knowledgeable about R1a2. From the information on the FTDNA R1a project M420>YP4141>YP5018 seems to be a Middle Eastern clade. The European clade is M420>YP4141>YP4132>YP4131. This is not the case with R1a1b where the parental YP1272* is in Egypt and its subclade YP1272>YP1276 found in Europe.
11394

Theramster
09-05-2016, 02:47 AM
So my cluster are from Middle East? Because is rare and most tested are from Middle East, don't forget that middle eastern have low data also maybe we found more.

11395
This is what Michal explained earlier.

Now I would inquire whether the German family has any Turkish ancestry, as could be the case.
I understand why the Arab individual would refuse to join the group. It could actually very much be a British line. Arabs pride in Arab lines, and would feel ashamed if they belonged to other than a recognizable Arab line. Frankly if I see any such rare lines anywhere in Mideast, for historic reasons I would be inclined to ascribe it to British colonials. Unless this Arab individual is actually upstream from the British individuals. Is he M420>YP4141>YP4132*?
Anything is possible, and people should be proud of who they are regardless.

Theramster
09-05-2016, 03:45 AM
For example, the only known cases of R1a-YP4132* and R1a-YP1272* are from the Gulf Region and Egypt, respectively. Thus, although I would slightly favor the "European scenario" for both R1a-YP4141 (R1a2) and YP1272 (R1a1b), the alternative routes cannot be ruled out yet.

I guess the Arab line is indeed M420>YP4141>YP4132* and it seems to be in the same situation as YP1272* in that its downstream subclade are in Europe. Except that YP4132>YP4131 is very young (900 ybp) while YP1272>YP1276 is much older (~3600 ybp). Any idea how old is YP4132*?

Theramster
09-05-2016, 06:22 AM
I guess the Arab line is indeed M420>YP4141>YP4132* and it seems to be in the same situation as YP1272* in that its downstream subclade are in Europe. Except that YP4132>YP4131 is very young (900 ybp) while YP1272>YP1276 is much older (~3600 ybp). Any idea how old is YP4132*?

I looked more closely at the data in Michal's R1a project and R Arabia. That's what I think and I stand corrected:
- YP4132* proved to be much more interesting than I initially thought. Of course it's way too distant from the English, Irish and Italian lines. It has to be extremely old, probably some 7000 bpy. Which makes it very interesting since it may have come to Iran and from there to Qatar at the same time or in the same waves of migrations that brought YP1272* to Egypt. Due to climate change that pushed populations westward.
- If the Irish line and especially the Italian undergo NGS analysis, it will probably put a much older date to the YP4132>YP4131. The English, Unknown are very close to each other, hence the younger date we currently have of 900 bpy.

I didn't get the chance to compare these samples to the other Iranian samples in say Professor Underhill supplemental data. There are several R-M420 there, and they could be related to the Qatari sample. I didn't find anything there close to YP1272*.

Smilelover
09-06-2016, 10:52 AM
11395
This is what Michal explained earlier.

Now I would inquire whether the German family has any Turkish ancestry, as could be the case.
I understand why the Arab individual would refuse to join the group. It could actually very much be a British line. Arabs pride in Arab lines, and would feel ashamed if they belonged to other than a recognizable Arab line. Frankly if I see any such rare lines anywhere in Mideast, for historic reasons I would be inclined to ascribe it to British colonials. Unless this Arab individual is actually upstream from the British individuals. Is he M420>YP4141>YP4132*?
Anything is possible, and people should be proud of who they are regardless.

I said it before , we are all sons of Adam , it does not matter whether i am Arabic or not .. i am proud of who i am regardless of what the result is
it is interesting to know with who i am linked to
any conclusion to be made should be carefully investigated and for that i ordered all the tests available in familytreedna Y,mt,familyfinder,big Y
communication with matches and near match is essential to rule out any false conclusion
and this is a problem as Familytreedna allow only to communicate with matches , and even this i failed to contact 2 match that appears in my page

i will give example of missleading
i know that in my family history near 250 years ago one of my family went to malaysia and died there with his sons lived there
another one went to africa for trading specifically i think Kenya and also his sons lived there
their sons could know that they are actually from yemen but may not, we lost communication between us

so in these years if one of them did a test he will confuse us on the origin

this can apply to us if my ancestor came from out side Yemen long time ago but i dont know from my family history any thing support that

in my area there is many tribes come from Iraq 1100 years back , we could be one of them

also migration from area in Yemen hadhramout to Iraq have occured .. we also could be on of them

its a matter of time to prove anything in this this science

lets just wait and see


thank you

Ahaddad
09-07-2016, 09:00 AM
I said it before , we are all sons of Adam , it does not matter whether i am Arabic or not .. i am proud of who i am regardless of what the result is
it is interesting to know with who i am linked to
any conclusion to be made should be carefully investigated and for that i ordered all the tests available in familytreedna Y,mt,familyfinder,big Y
communication with matches and near match is essential to rule out any false conclusion
and this is a problem as Familytreedna allow only to communicate with matches , and even this i failed to contact 2 match that appears in my page

i will give example of missleading
i know that in my family history near 250 years ago one of my family went to malaysia and died there with his sons lived there
another one went to africa for trading specifically i think Kenya and also his sons lived there
their sons could know that they are actually from yemen but may not, we lost communication between us

so in these years if one of them did a test he will confuse us on the origin

this can apply to us if my ancestor came from out side Yemen long time ago but i dont know from my family history any thing support that

in my area there is many tribes come from Iraq 1100 years back , we could be one of them

also migration from area in Yemen hadhramout to Iraq have occured .. we also could be on of them

its a matter of time to prove anything in this this science

lets just wait and see


thank you


Yes my friend but our cluster its clear that we have very very very low in European population, maybe we have in hand the people from Europe that have same markers like us. But 90% of our cluster tested are from Middle East, I mean that our haplotype are from Middle East, I don't know if are from Iraq,Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, turkey, Qatar or other places in Middle East. The problem is that Arabs have very low data, for example if you compare Europeans, Americans and other people that make DNa test to Arabs, the Arabs is much low data. The Arab countries tested is piddling, we need ask more Arabs and middle eastern to test and maybe we found more answers.

Smilelover
09-07-2016, 09:20 AM
The problem is that Arabs have very low data, for example if you compare Europeans, Americans and other people that make DNa test to Arabs, the Arabs is much low data. The Arab countries tested is piddling, we need ask more Arabs and middle eastern to test and maybe we found more answers.

I Agree with you .. we will wait .. who knows whats hidden
i was surprised when my result comes and even lucky that i have matches
i read that some dont have matches for 4 years

Y 67 is expensive .. if its price reduced many will test their DNA
because in Yemen low income.

thank you

Theramster
09-07-2016, 01:50 PM
I Agree with you .. we will wait .. who knows whats hidden
i was surprised when my result comes and even lucky that i have matches
i read that some dont have matches for 4 years

Y 67 is expensive .. if its price reduced many will test their DNA
because in Yemen low income.

thank you

You are right. But I have 2 observations to make:
1. There are a lot of groups for Arabian haplotype, that is people from the Arabian peninsula. FTDNA has many such groups. There are also online forums discussing these usually in Arabic. Just search for Arab + ftDNA projects or any such search in Arabic and you'll find many such groups. The Levant and North Africa lack extensive testing.
2. Unlike Europe the Middle East shows less homogeneity and greater diversity in the same clades. Take basal R-M420, there are your subclade but there are equally many others (which I found here http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/full/ejhg201450a.html). All of them occupy a small geography and are the same clade, but they've been separated from each other for a long time. This makes it even more difficult to make generalization.
The Middle East unlike Europe is far less homogeneous, in spite people assuming the opposite.

Theramster
09-07-2016, 02:06 PM
Check this out for example where it says half of European men are descended from one Bronze age ancestor ( I assume they're talking about R1b not R1a) yet this goes to show that Europe is far more homogenous than the Middle East. I can speculate why. Usually these founders were strong fighters who dispossessed or outcompeted existing populations. In the Middle East with so many long established civilizations it was harder for any new invader to simply dispossess or even outcompete more ancient and probably more advanced populations. So Middle East tends to keep both the old clades and the new comers, producing more heterogeneity and many unique even if tamed latent separate identities rooted in different descent.
http://barnesreview.org/half-of-western-european-men-descended-from-one-king/

ADW_1981
09-07-2016, 02:59 PM
Check this out for example where it says half of European men are descended from one Bronze age ancestor ( I assume they're talking about R1b not R1a) yet this goes to show that Europe is far more homogenous than the Middle East. I can speculate why. Usually these founders were strong fighters who dispossessed or outcompeted existing populations. In the Middle East with so many long established civilizations it was harder for any new invader to simply dispossess or even outcompete more ancient and probably more advanced populations. So Middle East tends to keep both the old clades and the new comers, producing more heterogeneity and many unique even if tamed latent separate identities rooted in different descent.
http://barnesreview.org/half-of-western-european-men-descended-from-one-king/

That is glorified news writing at its finest (regarding some Bronze Age "king"), and difficult to prove in reality. I think you have it backwards, but I don't want to digress this thread. If you look at the Neolithic invasion of Europe, because that's exactly what it is, the Middle East had a far larger impact on Europeans than the reverse. The "Middle East" an enormous swath of territory between North Africa and eastern Iran is more centered and a highway of sorts to get to different parts of the world, naturally the YDNA will be more diverse. The rest of your post is just rhetoric.

Theramster
09-07-2016, 04:56 PM
That is glorified news writing at its finest (regarding some Bronze Age "king"), and difficult to prove in reality. I think you have it backwards, but I don't want to digress this thread. If you look at the Neolithic invasion of Europe, because that's exactly what it is, the Middle East had a far larger impact on Europeans than the reverse. The "Middle East" an enormous swath of territory between North Africa and eastern Iran is more centered and a highway of sorts to get to different parts of the world, naturally the YDNA will be more diverse. The rest of your post is just rhetoric.

I don't understand why it ticked you off. 'Glorified news writing' 'Just rhetoric'...
The comparison was between the current Y DNA structure of two regions, not on the impact of these two regions on each other.
It's not just rhetoric, it was a speculation based on historical observation and knowledge of the region (Mideast).

The news I shared is based on a Nature study here
http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v48/n6/full/ng.3559.html

Check this paper out about linguistic history and the population of Ancient Europe

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=31366
It's a scientific fact that R1b bearers have displaced almost the entire populations of Neolithic Western Europe ( at least the male population). So either it was dispossession or being outcompeted, the result is the same. In the Middle East the new comers came to rule and exploit settled and advanced populations. When you say the Mideast was a crossroad, what does that mean except conquest, expansion and new dynasties replacing old ones?! It's just there were always settled and advanced populations to be exploited rather than wiped out. So you find in the Mideast Neolithic haplotypes that were wiped out in Western Europe!

Theramster
09-07-2016, 07:54 PM
That is glorified news writing at its finest (regarding some Bronze Age "king"), and difficult to prove in reality. I think you have it backwards, but I don't want to digress this thread. If you look at the Neolithic invasion of Europe, because that's exactly what it is, the Middle East had a far larger impact on Europeans than the reverse. The "Middle East" an enormous swath of territory between North Africa and eastern Iran is more centered and a highway of sorts to get to different parts of the world, naturally the YDNA will be more diverse. The rest of your post is just rhetoric.

For your convenience and for the benefit of our readers I'm including below the relevant information, validating the claims made, taken from the above papers in the order they were mentioned:

Punctuated bursts in human male demography inferred from 1,244 worldwide Y-chromosome sequences

11471

DNA Genealogy and Linguistics. Ancient Europe
11472

Sincerely,

Smilelover
09-16-2016, 09:13 PM
my Big Y result comes today and assigned as YP4141
no down SNP .. i did not see YP5018 tested
also although i did Y full 111 marker and Big Y .. still there is some blue SNP to purchase for in my tree such as SNP down to YP4141
what to do ??

Gravetto-Danubian
09-17-2016, 12:05 AM
my Big Y result comes today and assigned as YP4141
no down SNP .. i did not see YP5018 tested
also although i did Y full 111 marker and Big Y .. still there is some blue SNP to purchase for in my tree such as SNP down to YP4141
what to do ??
Get YFull analysis
you send your BaM, they analyse it, and you pay at end, if happy. It's only 50$ or so

Akra20m
09-17-2016, 12:16 AM
Hi brother

I am also from Yemen, Aden to be specific, I am currently waiting for my results. Yours are interesting because most Yemenis belong to J haplogroup. Can you tell me where exactly you are from?

Theramster
09-17-2016, 02:03 AM
my Big Y result comes today and assigned as YP4141
no down SNP .. i did not see YP5018 tested
also although i did Y full 111 marker and Big Y .. still there is some blue SNP to purchase for in my tree such as SNP down to YP4141
what to do ??

Hello friend,
Even though you're confirmed to be YP4141(green) you're still under subclade YP5018 in the FTDNA R1a project. I'm not sure if the admins have updated your info yet. They usually can see further subclades in the BigY data which don't make it to the FTDNA haplotree. You should make your concerns known to the ftdna group and the admins will surely clarify your exact classification. It'd be interesting if you end up being YP4141* but I trust the admins know better because they have access to your data.

Theramster
09-17-2016, 02:05 AM
Hi brother

I am also from Yemen, Aden to be specific, I am currently waiting for my results. Yours are interesting because most Yemenis belong to J haplogroup. Can you tell me where exactly you are from?

Could you take a snap shot of your FTDNA haplotree especially those 'blue' downstream SNPs?

Theramster
09-17-2016, 02:08 AM
my Big Y result comes today and assigned as YP4141
no down SNP .. i did not see YP5018 tested
also although i did Y full 111 marker and Big Y .. still there is some blue SNP to purchase for in my tree such as SNP down to YP4141
what to do ??
Could you take a snap shot of your FTDNA haplotree especially those 'blue' downstream SNPs and post it here?

Artmar
09-17-2016, 06:24 AM
my Big Y result comes today and assigned as YP4141
no down SNP .. i did not see YP5018 tested
also although i did Y full 111 marker and Big Y .. still there is some blue SNP to purchase for in my tree such as SNP down to YP4141
what to do ??

YP5018 isn't recognised by FTDNA tree, please notice that even confirmed YP5018 members from Iraq and Qatar don't show it.

I took a look at your novel SNP data. You are YP5018, because you show 6838601 G>A.

We will make a preliminary interpretation of results but I think that you should follow suggestions of forum members and also order professional interpretation at YFull ;).

Smilelover
09-17-2016, 09:58 AM
i did Y 111 and Big Y .. and still there is Yfull to be paid .. are you sure no futher something Y to be done ... Lol :)
there should be 50$ free Yfull B)
i orderd bam file .. and waiting for it

Smilelover
09-17-2016, 10:02 AM
Could you take a snap shot of your FTDNA haplotree especially those 'blue' downstream SNPs and post it here?

11682

Smilelover
09-17-2016, 10:03 AM
Hi brother

I am also from Yemen, Aden to be specific, I am currently waiting for my results. Yours are interesting because most Yemenis belong to J haplogroup. Can you tell me where exactly you are from?

you are most welcome dear Akram
i will send you my email

Theramster
09-17-2016, 02:23 PM
YP5018 isn't recognised by FTDNA tree, please notice that even confirmed YP5018 members from Iraq and Qatar don't show it.

I took a look at your novel SNP data. You are YP5018, because you show 6838601 G>A.

We will make a preliminary interpretation of results but I think that you should follow suggestions of forum members and also order professional interpretation at YFull ;).

Hi Artmar,
I assume you're an admin in the R1a project since you have access to Bazqamah's data. Any idea why his BigY test couldn't rule out his belonging to YP4131 & YP4132. Understandably he must be negative given his belonging to YP5018, yet why BigY wasn't sufficient to reveal it and they're showing in blue and not as a presumed negative (black)?

Michał
09-18-2016, 10:02 PM
my Big Y result comes today and assigned as YP4141

As explained by Artmar, you are positive for YP5018 (and for many other SNPs under YP4141 that are equivalent to YP5018). However, these mutations are not yet recognized by FTDNA, and thus they are listed only among your Big Y novel variants (as nucleotide positions only). Most importantly, you also seem to share at least one novel mutation under YP5018 with kit M8363 but not with kit 407716 (who is classified in our project as YP5018*). We are still waiting until this novel mutation (24362972 G>T) gets its own name from the YP series.

I strongly agree with both Gravetto-Danubian and Artmar that the YFull analysis of your BAM file may help us refine your Big Y results. Also, the YFull results are presented in a much more user-friendly way and you will also got their TMRCA age estimates for both YP5018 and that hypothetical new subclade under YP5018.


Any idea why his BigY test couldn't rule out his belonging to YP4131 & YP4132. Understandably he must be negative given his belonging to YP5018, yet why BigY wasn't sufficient to reveal it and they're showing in blue and not as a presumed negative (black)?
The analysis of the Big Y raw data by the FTDNA team is something that needs huge improvement. They are generally very bad with recognizing all negative results. This is one of the reasons why our admin team recommends submitting the Big Y raw data (BAM files) to YFull. Another benefit of the YFull analysis (besides those mentioned above) is the extraction of the STR data for about 400 markers.

Michał
09-18-2016, 10:13 PM
This is not the case with R1a1b where the parental YP1272* is in Egypt and its subclade YP1272>YP1276 found in Europe.

The above statement needs to be corrected a bit. Your Egyptian lineage (currently classified as YP1272*) is not "parental" to YP1276 (although one could indeed say that clade YP1272 is parental to clade YP1276). Yours is just one of the two parallel lineages directly under YP1272 that are currently known to us. By contrast to YP1276 (a subclade represented by at least a couple of European and North African lineages), your lineage seems to to be not represented by any other FTDNA customer. In other words, there is nothing yet that would make your single YP1272* lineage "more ancient" than the parallel YP1276 lineage.

Theramster
09-19-2016, 12:46 AM
The above statement needs to be corrected a bit. Your Egyptian lineage (currently classified as YP1272*) is not "parental" to YP1276 (although one could indeed say that clade YP1272 is parental to clade YP1276). Yours is just one of the two parallel lineages directly under YP1272 that are currently known to us. By contrast to YP1276 (a subclade represented by at least a couple of European and North African lineages), your lineage seems to to be not represented by any other FTDNA customer. In other words, there is nothing yet that would make your single YP1272* lineage "more ancient" than the parallel YP1276 lineage.

Great Michal. There is something that doesnt make sense here. In what sense my clade is YP1272* and it still cannot be parental to those with downstream mutation? In this way we should both have different separate branches parallel to each other representing different clades under R-M459. There may be issues with classification here. There may be another way to classify the data. How old is my clade then? Thanks

Theramster
09-19-2016, 01:26 AM
The above statement needs to be corrected a bit. Your Egyptian lineage (currently classified as YP1272*) is not "parental" to YP1276 (although one could indeed say that clade YP1272 is parental to clade YP1276). Yours is just one of the two parallel lineages directly under YP1272 that are currently known to us. By contrast to YP1276 (a subclade represented by at least a couple of European and North African lineages), your lineage seems to to be not represented by any other FTDNA customer. In other words, there is nothing yet that would make your single YP1272* lineage "more ancient" than the parallel YP1276 lineage.

Obviously you're more knowledgeable but forgive me this too is my lineage. From what I see my lineage has been separated from the others for a much longer time than their separation from one another. Even before any SNP details that much could be asserted. Now to find out that they too share a downstream more recent SNP mutation means they both had a much more recent common ancestor. This simply confirms the intuition that they all are closer to each other than to me. Regardless whether new samples appear that share with me a more recent mutation, it won't change my distant position vis a vis the YP1276 crowd. I will argue I have the same relation to the Cypriot samples even though they are closer to Tunisia than to the other Europeans. In another intuitive way the Tunisia in spite of being distant from me, it's closer to me than to the Europeans. Egypt - Cypriots- Tunisia- Europeans. However way the data is interpreted this separating distance which translates into mutation SNP & STR must mean age. They may be parallel lines but my line seems to be the oldest even if it is not directly parental. It represents a much older separated clade, which had a different life all around in the Mediterranean and Europe. So to say there is no order between them was a surprise to me since it simply meant that all these tests generated no information at all, which I refuse to accept.

Theramster
09-19-2016, 02:37 AM
The above statement needs to be corrected a bit. Your Egyptian lineage (currently classified as YP1272*) is not "parental" to YP1276 (although one could indeed say that clade YP1272 is parental to clade YP1276). Yours is just one of the two parallel lineages directly under YP1272 that are currently known to us. By contrast to YP1276 (a subclade represented by at least a couple of European and North African lineages), your lineage seems to to be not represented by any other FTDNA customer. In other words, there is nothing yet that would make your single YP1272* lineage "more ancient" than the parallel YP1276 lineage.

Seriously Michal saying that YP1272* isn't older than YP1272->YP1276 is like saying R-M198* is not older than your own subclade R1a-L1280. Obviously it doesn't mean R1a-L1280 is not as ancient as R-M198*, it simply means R-M198* is a snap shot of R1a-L1280 ancient past. It probably had its own unique mutations unshared with anyone else ( that's why we don't recognize it under a younger mutation). And it tells us a great deal about the separate and quieter life of R-M198* relative to your own subclade. I hope I made my concerns known. Thanks.

Michał
09-19-2016, 11:40 AM
Great Michal. There is something that doesnt make sense here. In what sense my clade is YP1272* and it still cannot be parental to those with downstream mutation?
Clade YP1272 encompasses all people who are positive for YP1272, including both those from subclade YP1276 and those from your own lineage (ie. a part of a yet unnamed subclade under YP1272 that is currently/temporarily classified as YP1272*). In that sense, clade YP1272 is parental to both YP1276 and your YP1272* sublineage. However, one cannot say that your YP1272* sublineage is parental to YP1276.

Your sublineage is marked as YP1272* only because it is negative for all named mutations under YP1272 that are currently known to us. However, it would be enough to assign a new name (for example RAM1) to one of your multiple private SNPs under YP1272 to transform your lineage into a novel SNP-defined subclade under YP1272, in which case we would have two parallel SNP-defined subclades under YP1272, ie. YP1276 and RAM1. Please note that the TMRCA age for your "RAM1 subclade" is currently much lower than in the case of the parallel subclade YP1276, so one could say that subclade YP1276 is older (or "more ancient") than your own subclade RAM1.

By contrast to Full Genome Corp, neither FTDNA nor YFull assign new names to any private (or non-shared) SNPs, and this is the only reason why your lineage is currently classified as YP1272* (and not YP1272>RAM1, or YP1272>YPxxxx when using the names from the YP series). However, if your brother or father were tested with Big Y, all your shared SNPs under YP1272 would get new names, and your lineage would be no longer classified as YP1272*.



How old is my clade then?
For each clade/lineage, we can calculate two different kinds of age estimates. One of them is the so-called TMRCA age, which corresponds to a time to the most recent common ancestor. This age cannot be currently estimated for your lineage, because we cannot talk about any common (or shared) ancestor without having at least two different members of a given subclade tested with Big Y (or with any other Y-DNA test that would allow us to perform such calculation). If your father or brother were tested with Big Y, this would make the TMRCA age for your subclade increase from 0 to about 20-100 years, but this would still make your lineage much younger than clade YP1276 (in the TMRCA sense).

The other age estimate is related to a moment when a given subclade diverged from the most closely related subclade (in this case from subclade YP1276), so this is sometimes called a "formation age" or a "birth age", as opposed to the "expansion age" (which corresponds to the TMRCA age). As you can see, this formation age for your lineage YP1272*/RAM1 is "by definition" not only identical to the formation age for subclade YP1276, but it is also identical (again "by definition") to the TMRCA age (or "expansion age") for the parental clade YP1272.

To summarize, your clade YP1272 (encompassing also all YP1276 members) is about 14,000 years old (which is the formation age) or 7300 years old (which is the TMRCA age). We cannot estimate the TMRCA age for your specific subclade under YP1272 (because it is represented by one lineage only), but its formation age is the same as for clade YP1276, ie. about 7300 years (according to YFull).

Michał
09-19-2016, 11:57 AM
Regardless whether new samples appear that share with me a more recent mutation, it won't change my distant position vis a vis the YP1276 crowd.
This is correct, but please note that you will still remain as distantly related to those YP1276 members as they are to you, so the distance will remain identical irrespective of which point of view we will use.


In another intuitive way the Tunisia in spite of being distant from me, it's closer to me than to the Europeans.
Geographically yes, but not genetically (when talking about the Y-DNA lineages only).


They may be parallel lines but my line seems to be the oldest even if it is not directly parental.
I think the whole misunderstanding is because you see your lineage as born when having been diverged from subclade YP1276, while subclade YP1276 as born only when having been divided into multiple descending sublineages, which means you are applying different criteria to those two lineages.

Michał
09-19-2016, 02:43 PM
Seriously Michal saying that YP1272* isn't older than YP1272->YP1276 is like saying R-M198* is not older than your own subclade R1a-L1280.
It all depends on what you mean by YP1272* (or by M198*). It is important to distinguish any modern lineage classified as YP1272* (or M198*, although we actually don't know any modern M198* lineage) from any ancient lineage classified as YP1272* (or M198*). In the latter case, we also need to distinguish an ancient YP1272*/M198* lineage that is parental to all known modern subclades under YP1272/M198 from an old/ancient lineage that represents a hypothetical subclade of YP1272/M198 that is parallel to all known (both the modern and ancient ones) SNP-defined subclades/lineages under YP1272/M198.



Obviously it doesn't mean R1a-L1280 is not as ancient as R-M198*, it simply means R-M198* is a snap shot of R1a-L1280 ancient past.
This is correct only when applying this very specific meaning of R-M198*, but not when using it to describe either an ancient (but much younger than clade M198) or a modern sublineage of clade M198. In the latter case, it will also depend on whether we talk about the formation age (so any M198* lineage must be older than clade L1280) or about the TMRCA age (so such an unknown M198* lineage does not need to be older than clade L1280).

You need to be aware that your modern YP1272* lineage is not a "snapshot" frozen in time but a real modern lineage that is as distantly related to the most recent common ancestor of all modern YP1272 members as are all members of subclade YP1276.

Also, please note that currently we know two subclades directly under M459, and these are M198 (or R1a1a, encompassing more than 99% of all M459 members) and YP1272 (or R1a1b, encompassing much less than 1% of all M459 members and showing a much younger TMRCA age than M198). Is there any reason for considering R1a1b (or R-YP1272) to be much "more ancient" than its brother clade R1a1a/M198 only because until recently the SNPs defining clade R1a1b/R-YP1272 were not known to us, so this subclade was for a very long time classified as R1a1*/R-M459*?

Michał
09-19-2016, 03:11 PM
Most importantly, you also seem to share at least one novel mutation under YP5018 with kit M8363 but not with kit 407716 (who is classified in our project as YP5018*). We are still waiting until this novel mutation (24362972 G>T) gets its own name from the YP series.

Bazqaman, we have just received a name for this new SNP (YP5664), so you are now classified in our project as a member of category "1. M420>YP4141>YP5018>YP5664-A-x (one more Big Y needed)". This means that you are predicted to belong to a specific STR-defined cluster under YP5664 that is currently named YP5664-A. To transform this cluster into a novel SNP-defined subclade under YP5664, we need one of the two remaining members of this grouping (ie. either #287026 or #461580, both from Turkey/Kurdistan) to take the NGS-based test (like Big Y).

Once your BAM file is analyzed at YFull, we will also get the TMRCA age estimate for clade YP5664.

Theramster
09-19-2016, 04:30 PM
--------------------------------

Thanks Michal for your time and effort,

Theramster
09-19-2016, 05:10 PM
--------------------------

I apologize I had to brief.
Thanks again for the conversation and your effort,

lgmayka
09-19-2016, 08:01 PM
As it stands Yfull can't tell me my distance from the Tunisian or Belarusian, which is weird.
YFull says that the Tunisian and Belarusian samples share a patrilineal ancestor only 3900 years ago. Your most recent common patrilineal ancestor with their Y12476 subclade lived roughly 7300 years ago. Thus, your divergence from their subclade is indeed much older than their divergence from each other. Thus, the divergences (branch points) have a chronological order. The individual lineages themselves do not, because they all belong to humans living today.

These ages of divergence do not necessarily translate straightforwardly into geographical migrations and expansions. However, they provide fertile ground for hypotheses of that kind.

lgmayka
09-19-2016, 09:03 PM
As it stands according to this classification method I have to wait for another similar lineage to inform me who I am, and I can't compare myself directly to any other under different subclades, even though the data is there for all lineages, be it STR or SNPs.
As Michał wrote: "Once your BAM file is analyzed at YFull, we will also get the TMRCA age estimate for clade YP5664." This new information will be very valuable in hypothesizing the geographical origin and expansion of the R-YP1272 clade.

Theramster
09-19-2016, 09:55 PM
As Michał wrote: "Once your BAM file is analyzed at YFull, we will also get the TMRCA age estimate for clade YP5664." This new information will be very valuable in hypothesizing the geographical origin and expansion of the R-YP1272 clade.

I truly don't understand the relations, friend. My R1a1b is different from R1a2 or M420>YP4141>YP5018>YP5664.

Theramster
09-19-2016, 10:29 PM
YFull says that the Tunisian and Belarusian samples share a patrilineal ancestor only 3900 years ago. Your most recent common patrilineal ancestor with their Y12476 subclade lived roughly 7300 years ago. Thus, your divergence from their subclade is indeed much older than their divergence from each other. Thus, the divergences (branch points) have a chronological order. The individual lineages themselves do not, because they all belong to humans living today.

I could have predicted this without even looking at the BAM files. I was hoping for more as I explained before. Where did these tree lineages come from? They were mathematically deduced from individual BAM files, so to say this applies to the theoretical tree categories and not to the individuals is awfully inconsistent. And even though we are living humans, our lineages have diverged long ago and had their own history.

My lineage has a separate history from my very distant relatives in Cypress, Tunisia and Europe. In fact their history is much more inter-dependent.

We all share a most distant common ancestor, unique to all of us.

This is the forefather I share with them. This forefather shares another forefather with an Azeri Iranian SRY1532* sample in Professor Underhill supplementary material.

And I mean that these samples are so much closer to each other than to all other R1a basal groups all over.

I'm closer to the unique Azeri sample than any of them.


They're a unique bunch. The Cypriots and the Tunisian share a common ancestor (not mine, the Egyptian's). The Tunisian and the Czech share a common ancestor ( not the Cypriots'). The Czech and the Russian share a common ancestor (not the Tunisian's). The Russian shares a common ancestor with the Italian and Belarusian (not the Czech's). Finally the Belarusian and Italian share a common ancestor (not the Russian's). At the beginning the Egyptian and the Azeri share a common ancestor.

Now I expect further NGS analysis of the untested samples to reveal these more recent common ancestry for the Europeans, as it proved true with the Tunisian and Belarusian. If this is not informative about the Genetic history of R1a and particularly this clan of 'basal' R1a I don't know what is.


These ages of divergence do not necessarily translate straightforwardly into geographical migrations and expansions. However, they provide fertile ground for hypotheses of that kind.

If proper multi-faceted analysis of interrelationships is performed, it will generate a wealth of information. I pored over tons of data and these samples from Azeri Iran to Belarus are a unique group. Notice that the Azeri sample may never be YP1272 at all or the Cypriots YP1276, yet they ( all 9) are close to each other than to any other R1a bearer! I think much information is left unexplored in spite of possessing lots of data.

Theramster
09-20-2016, 01:27 AM
Assuming that the age estimation of 7300 ybp for the most recent ancestor of the Egyptian, Tunisian and Belarusian is correct.

Then I make the following approximation for the most recent common ancestors of this unique clan ( I'm going to drop out names like YP1272 till we figure out what that means exactly, because I expect both YP1272 & YP1276 to change names in the future. Whatever it is we are talking about the parallel branch to the infamous R-M198 under R-M459, and a group of samples [9 in total so far] that are very close to each other than to any other R1a bearers).

Here we go:

*A recent common ancestor to the Egyptian and the Azeri( R1a-SRY1532*) some 9000 ybp
* A recent common ancestor to the Egyptian and Cypriots some 7000 ybp
* A recent common ancestor to the Cypriots and Tunisian some
5700 ybp
* A recent common ancestor to Tunisian and Czech some 5000 ybp
* A recent common ancestor to Czech and Russian some 4500 ybp
* A recent common ancestor to Russian and the ancestor of Belarusian & Italian some 3800 ybp
* A recent common ancestor to Belarusian and Italian some 3200 ybp

As we go down the list more recent common SNPs will substantiate these most recent common ancestry. Yfull estimates 144 years/SNP mutation so you do the math.

I derived this information by comparing them to one another, and I hope in the future to enrich this analysis by comparing their NGS files directly to each other, and not relative to a constructed hypothetical clades. I believe this is a good idea about the story of this interesting and unique clan among R1a bearers. They're an island of closeness in the midst of very distant R1a bearers, be it of the R-M198 clans or even the upstream basal types.

Theramster
09-20-2016, 03:14 AM
Please share your Yreport in private or public as you wish
Here's how:
11746
Mine is here:
http://www.yfull.com/share/yreport/6697152563e6f061ef0b51a49cb37cee/

P.S: Obviously the link opens only once. Please share your report in a private message.

Smilelover
09-20-2016, 12:03 PM
Bazqaman, we have just received a name for this new SNP (YP5664), so you are now classified in our project as a member of category "1. M420>YP4141>YP5018>YP5664-A-x (one more Big Y needed)". This means that you are predicted to belong to a specific STR-defined cluster under YP5664 that is currently named YP5664-A. To transform this cluster into a novel SNP-defined subclade under YP5664, we need one of the two remaining members of this grouping (ie. either #287026 or #461580, both from Turkey/Kurdistan) to take the NGS-based test (like Big Y).

Once your BAM file is analyzed at YFull, we will also get the TMRCA age estimate for clade YP5664.

what is better to know time of our common ancestor .. upgrading sample 461580 to 111 marker or Big Y
could 111 marker give us better estimation ..

thank you

Smilelover
09-20-2016, 12:06 PM
can any body tell me APPROXIMATELY what is

The recent common ancestor to M420
recent common ancestor to YP4141
recent common ancestor to YP5018
recent common ancestor to YP5664

lgmayka
09-20-2016, 01:25 PM
can any body tell me APPROXIMATELY what is

The recent common ancestor to M420
recent common ancestor to YP4141
recent common ancestor to YP5018
recent common ancestor to YP5664
YFull says (https://yfull.com/tree/R1a/):
M420, 18,300 ybp
YP4141, 12,600 ybp
YP5018, 2700 ybp
YP5664, not on the tree yet

Please keep in mind that:
- These TMRCAs are based on the examples YFull has encountered so far. At any time, a new sample could push the TMRCA closer to the date of "formation" (initial divergence from siblings).
- Some experts claim that YFull's estimates are 10-20% too low.

wmehar
09-20-2016, 02:00 PM
At least you have matches. I have no matches at all and so it is hard to get an idea of my origins. Yes at the end we are all sons of adam. But there are many famous Arab R (al-Husseini family (Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, the Grandmufti of Jerusalem who cooperated with the nazis during world war 2) of Palestine, Izzet ad Duri etc.) people.

They aren't R, they're J-L859. Aren't they?

If they were R, the irony that Netinyahu is also R1a-Z93 is going to kill everyone.

Michał
09-20-2016, 03:04 PM
what is better to know time of our common ancestor .. upgrading sample 461580 to 111 marker or Big Y

Definitely Big Y (for kit 461580).


could 111 marker give us better estimation ..
There are still some people who consider the STR-based age estimates to be more reliable than those based on SNP counting, but most experts seem to prefer the SNP-based calculations nowadays. However, this doesn't make the STRs completely useless, so upgrading to 111 STRs makes some sense, as well, only that Big Y offers much more (and it can provide some STR results from the 68-111 panel when analyzing the Big Y BAM file at YFull or FGC.).

Volat
09-20-2016, 04:04 PM
I am Z92. I am waiting for BiG Y discount. I may share my results with community if anyone is interested to know the Y-DNA results of a north-eastern Belarusian.

raspberry
09-20-2016, 07:12 PM
They aren't R, they're J-L859. Aren't they?

If they were R, the irony that Netinyahu is also R1a-Z93 is going to kill everyone.

Izzet ad Duri is as far as I know R1b (Arab DNA forums, he also has orange hair wich is usually connected with R1b). There is also a al Husseini from Jerusalem in R-Arabia group on familytreedna. But I looked it up and did not find him anymore.. but tousands of years are dividing us and netanyahu..

ADW_1981
09-20-2016, 08:03 PM
Izzet ad Duri is as far as I know R1b (Arab DNA forums, he also has orange hair wich is usually connected with R1b). There is also a al Husseini from Jerusalem in R-Arabia group on familytreedna. But I looked it up and did not find him anymore.. but tousands of years are dividing them and netanyahu..

Do you have his kit #, or the alleged family's kit #?

Theramster
09-21-2016, 12:16 AM
They aren't R, they're J-L859. Aren't they?

If they were R, the irony that Netinyahu is also R1a-Z93 is going to kill everyone.

We should then have the R1a brotherhood. Interesting how R1a ancestry cuts through so many ethnic barriers. I know that the Arab and Jewish R1a-Z93 are similar and are different from the European clade. Any new research?

raspberry
09-21-2016, 05:14 PM
Do you have his kit #, or the alleged family's kit #?
As I said I did not find the al Husseini anymore (could be that he is also R1b)..

Theramster
09-22-2016, 01:35 AM
I think the whole misunderstanding is because you see your lineage as born when having been diverged from subclade YP1276, while subclade YP1276 as born only when having been divided into multiple descending sublineages, which means you are applying different criteria to those two lineages.

Michal,
The reason why I will attempt to revisit this issue is because I noticed that this answer seems to be satisfying to many here while it still remains unsatisfying to me.

Either I do misunderstand the presupposition of the classification, that's why I'm enquiring further about the methodology involved or my intuition hasn't been entirely made clear. I will also remove the other posts discussing how I perceive the methodology should be.

I'm under no illusion that all lines are equally modern and will continue to develop their own mutations. So words like older and younger must mean something else to any reasonable person.

Do I think that YP1276 was born upon division ? Not really, rather I recognize it has undergone a unique mutational pattern shared by all YP1276. Upon further analysis it will prove to have undergone further downstream mutational patterns shared by some and not all of YP1276 bearers. Each such mutational pattern puts a date to these changes, and gives us a geographical dispersion pattern, useful to understand YP1272. In what sense I'm older? If time is defined as change then I'm justified to speak of my lineage as the least touched by these changes, in the same way that R-M459* if found would know nothing of them as well, and of mine too. In this sense R-M459* is older and I'm younger.

In case my own unique mutational pattern during the same time period proves to be as widely shared as YP1276, YP1276 will be younger than me when it comes to all these changes. Yet as it stands and given the nature of R1a, I'm justified to believe that my own mutational pattern will remain just that, hidden and unknown, in the very same way the Tunisian or Cypriot lines' own mutational pattern unshared by the Europeans will remain unknown and unnamed, much like any so-called 'basal' types. They are basal relative to 99% of R1a bearers. In an alternative universe the 99% ( R-M198) could have been the basal types and R-YP1272 the 99% of R1a bearers, but this is not the case. It's no wonder that my line is called 'basal' 'relic'... etc. These are relative terms to another dominant R1a branch. Noone knows how the future will play out for these lineages, yet as it stands it's realistic to speak of the isolated and rare older in the sense I explained it here. These are relative terms to changes occurring in more dominant branches and relative to particular geography.

Now for YP1272 to have been isolated in Egypt makes sense to me and it must have gotten there at a very early time before the same YP1272 reached Cypress or Tunisia or settled in Russia or Eastern Europe. It makes historical sense that it represents the first wave of its migration. In this sense it's old. Yet I keep my eyes open and my mind as well. Yet from the data at hand I can't conceive the narrative otherwise.

I hope I made my point clear

Theramster
09-23-2016, 01:24 AM
Michal,
The reason why I will attempt to revisit this issue is because I noticed that this answer seems to be satisfying to many here while it still remains unsatisfying to me.

Either I do misunderstand the presupposition of the classification, that's why I'm enquiring further about the methodology involved or my intuition hasn't been entirely made clear. I will also remove the other posts discussing how I perceive the methodology should be.

I'm under no illusion that all lines are equally modern and will continue to develop their own mutations. So words like older and younger must mean something else to any reasonable person.

Do I think that YP1276 was born upon division ? Not really, rather I recognize it has undergone a unique mutational pattern shared by all YP1276. Upon further analysis it will prove to have undergone further downstream mutational patterns shared by some and not all of YP1276 bearers. Each such mutational pattern puts a date to these changes, and gives us a geographical dispersion pattern, useful to understand YP1272. In what sense I'm older? If time is defined as change then I'm justified to speak of my lineage as the least touched by these changes, in the same way that R-M459* if found would know nothing of them as well, and of mine too. In this sense R-M459* is older and I'm younger.

In case my own unique mutational pattern during the same time period proves to be as widely shared as YP1276, YP1276 will be younger than me when it comes to all these changes. Yet as it stands and given the nature of R1a, I'm justified to believe that my own mutational pattern will remain just that, hidden and unknown, in the very same way the Tunisian or Cypriot lines' own mutational pattern unshared by the Europeans will remain unknown and unnamed, much like any so-called 'basal' types. They are basal relative to 99% of R1a bearers. In an alternative universe the 99% ( R-M198) could have been the basal types and R-YP1272 the 99% of R1a bearers, but this is not the case. It's no wonder that my line is called 'basal' 'relic'... etc. These are relative terms to another dominant R1a branch. Noone knows how the future will play out for these lineages, yet as it stands it's realistic to speak of the isolated and rare older in the sense I explained it here. These are relative terms to changes occurring in more dominant branches and relative to particular geography.

Now for YP1272 to have been isolated in Egypt makes sense to me and it must have gotten there at a very early time before the same YP1272 reached Cypress or Tunisia or settled in Russia or Eastern Europe. It makes historical sense that it represents the first wave of its migration. In this sense it's old. Yet I keep my eyes open and my mind as well. Yet from the data at hand I can't conceive the narrative otherwise.

I hope I made my point clear

I also believe we need to examine how we conceive of these trees and this has to do with how our minds work. The clades that are defined most by the most ancient upstream ancestor is treated by everyone whether they admit it or not as 'basal' 'relic' 'upstream' ... all names suggesting seniority and antiquity. Why then, even though Michal ably showed they're all modern? Because it's a relative statement comparing fast change to slow change. Slower is older because it's more akin to the ancient ancestor. What determines whether change is fast or slow? Again it's how the human mind works: Even though the average mutation rate could be said to be more or less the same, fast change is measured not just by our knowledge of new subclades discovered by costly NGS, but more importantly by size and numbers, since the greater numbers will produce more chances for diversity. More descendants according to the human mind translates into more youth, less descendants as in rare subclades translates into old age and numbers analogous to the ancient ancestors.

Because of all these reasons the infamous * after any clade is always conceived as a snapshot in time. The human mind always conceives comparatively, while researchers fancy rigid categories which constantly require revision. It's like the building of dams on a flowing stream, while in fact there is no real difference between water on either side of the dam. The real difference is how the stream flows. How fast and how slow, and how it branches out in time, and how channels form as others disappear.

I just hope one day we can examine genealogy without having to chop down the tree every time we test new samples.

This goes into the philosophy of genealogical research. Cheers.

Smilelover
09-23-2016, 04:33 AM
4 genetic distance
Estimated not more than 1000 year link

Can these years still be presented in autosomal tests

Can presentage in my origin determine estimate the time we link

For example 50% near 100-200 years
5% 700-1000 years
1% more than 1000 years

As autosomal test reveal last 600 years approx




Thank you

Smilelover
09-23-2016, 06:31 AM
I will wait until all my tests completed

Please refer me to good sites for learning more

Michał
09-23-2016, 01:37 PM
4 genetic distance
Estimated not more than 1000 year link

Can these years still be presented in autosomal tests
No. Such a relatively distant relationship is unlikely to be shown in your autosomal results, unless of course your very distant Y-DNA relative is a part of your very specific population and thus he shares a lot of your non-Y-chromosomal DNA with you (in such case, he can also be much more closely related to you through your non-purely-paternal ancestry).



Can presentage in my origin determine estimate the time we link

For example 50% near 100-200 years
5% 700-1000 years
1% more than 1000 years
Well, it is certainly true that the smaller percentage you get in My Origins, the more distant relationship connects you to a given population, but the above numbers don't seem to be correct. The percentage goes down much faster with the age in all cases when an original foreign admixture (associated with a genetic background that is very rare in your population) is being diluted in a "local environment". Also, you may show about 50% (or less) for an admixture that happened much more recently than 100-200 years. Finally, a given percentage value may correspond to a combined contribution of two or more independent admixture events that took place in very different time periods, so in such case it is very hard to discriminate between all those separate events.



As autosomal test reveal last 600 years approx

This doesn't seem to be true. An autosomal test may reliably identify your distant relative only when going back maximally 200-300 years.

Smilelover
09-24-2016, 12:29 AM
Thanks michal your comment really helpful

my SNP tree now not shows YP4132 and YP4131 as blue anymore but black
most of the tree is black --- presumed negative
why not red as they tests all SNPs in big y ?

did they still not completed my big y

i also notice one green SNP in J2

i also notice that there is major SNPs have companion SNP which some is negative
what does it mean to have m420 + with some positive some negative parallel SNP

Michał
09-24-2016, 08:49 AM
my SNP tree now not shows YP4132 and YP4131 as blue anymore but black
most of the tree is black --- presumed negative
why not red as they tests all SNPs in big y ?

did they still not completed my big y
One of the major disadvantages of the Big Y test is that FTDNA is unable to properly interpret the Big Y raw data, and this is why so many Big Y testers submit their raw data to YFull or FGC for additional analysis (or at least they need a substantial help from the admins of the appropriate haplogroup projects). Apparently, the FTDNA team is trying to improve their analysis (and one can indeed notice a small progress in this respect), but this is still very far from producing a complete (and accurate) report for each BigY-tested customer. As you have rightly noticed, they frequently modify particular elements related to the Big Y results, so it certainly may happen one day that you will finally get your YP4132 and YP4131 results marked in red (and eventually you will be shown as positive for YP5018, and then for YP5664, but this may take a couple of months, if not years).



i also notice one green SNP in J2
Which one? This might be a recurrent mutation that independently arose in your lineage. These things happen from time to time.



i also notice that there is major SNPs have companion SNP which some is negative
what does it mean to have m420 + with some positive some negative parallel SNP
This is because most of those SNPs shown on the M420 level do not really belong there, so this is an apparent failure of the FTDNA team to get the R1a tree being properly structured. For example, F989 and F4099 should be placed on the M198 level, while CTS11411 is equivalent to M459.

Smilelover
09-24-2016, 09:39 AM
Which one? This might be a recurrent mutation that independently arose in your lineage. These things happen from time to time..


J-P244

Smilelover
09-25-2016, 05:13 AM
regarding results in other companies 23andme, ancestory.com,fullgenom, are there any public projects same as familytreedna
is there any way to see it as i contact one friend who has his result not on familytreedna so i couldnot see it

thank you

Michał
09-26-2016, 10:27 PM
regarding results in other companies 23andme, ancestory.com,fullgenom, are there any public projects same as familytreedna
is there any way to see it as i contact one friend who has his result not on familytreedna so i couldnot see it
This question should be asked in another section: http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?2-Commercial-Testing.

Smilelover
09-26-2016, 10:35 PM
Ok .. i am sorry always stuck here ^_^
I will issue a new topic there

MfA
10-13-2016, 10:17 AM
BTW anyone knows if the Iraqi from Najaf is Kurdish or some Iranian? His admixture profile looks west Iranian. Whatever he's I'm fairly certain it's Zagrosian. Qatar is a port country have huge ancestry from other side of the coast. It's no wonder various people around it whether they're Kurds Azeris Iranians Assyrians have this YP5018 line.

407716 Najaf, Iraq Iraq 1. M420>YP4141>YP5018* (more STRs needed)

Eurogenes K13


North_Atlantic 2.66
Baltic 3.64
West_Med 7.70
West_Asian 40.58
East_Med 27.07
Red_Sea 5.52
South_Asian 8.74
East_Asian 1.08
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.05
Oceanian 0.93
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 1.00

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Kurdish 3.54
2 Iranian 5.52
3 Azeri 6.9
4 Armenian 10.03
5 Georgian_Jewish 11.3
6 Turkish 11.79
7 Georgian 13.16
8 Kumyk 13.31
9 Assyrian 14.32
10 Abhkasian 14.54
11 Adygei 14.92
12 Ossetian 16.49
13 Balkar 16.7
14 Iranian_Jewish 16.84
15 Turkmen 17.06
16 Kurdish_Jewish 17.26
17 North_Ossetian 17.52
18 Kabardin 17.9
19 Chechen 19.11
20 Lezgin 19.23

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.9% Georgian_Jewish + 27.1% Balochi @ 2.93
2 94.1% Kurdish + 5.9% Balochi @ 3.02
3 94.1% Kurdish + 5.9% Brahui @ 3.02
4 93% Kurdish + 7% Makrani @ 3.02
5 95% Kurdish + 5% Kalash @ 3.04
6 95.3% Kurdish + 4.7% Burusho @ 3.06
7 73.7% Iranian + 26.3% Georgian @ 3.1
8 90.7% Kurdish + 9.3% Ossetian @ 3.13
9 95.5% Kurdish + 4.5% Pathan @ 3.13
10 96% Kurdish + 4% Sindhi @ 3.14
11 93.9% Kurdish + 6.1% Afghan_Pashtun @ 3.14
12 96.1% Kurdish + 3.9% Punjabi_Jat @ 3.14
13 91.2% Kurdish + 8.8% Balkar @ 3.16
14 73% Georgian_Jewish + 27% Brahui @ 3.16
15 92% Kurdish + 8% Kabardin @ 3.19
16 90.7% Kurdish + 9.3% Adygei @ 3.21
17 97.3% Kurdish + 2.7% Bangladeshi @ 3.21
18 89.8% Kurdish + 10.2% Georgian @ 3.22
19 94.2% Kurdish + 5.8% Afghan_Tadjik @ 3.23
20 97.3% Kurdish + 2.7% Gujarati @ 3.24

Dodecad K12b


Gedrosia 25.47
Siberian 0.48
Northwest_African 1.19
Southeast_Asian 1.56
Atlantic_Med 7.17
North_European 6.46
South_Asian 3.62
East_African 0.33
Southwest_Asian 13.31
East_Asian 0.26
Caucasus 39.62
Sub_Saharan 0.54

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Iranian (Dodecad) 4.3
2 Kurd (Dodecad) 4.59
3 Kurds (Yunusbayev) 4.79
4 Iranians (Behar) 6.37
5 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 9.11
6 Turks (Behar) 13
7 Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) 14.84
8 Turkish (Dodecad) 15.25
9 Georgia_Jews (Behar) 15.26
10 Iranian_Jews (Behar) 15.36
11 Assyrian (Dodecad) 15.57
12 Turkmens (Yunusbayev) 16.16
13 Armenians_15 (Yunusbayev) 16.55
14 Iraq_Jews (Behar) 16.85
15 Armenian (Dodecad) 17.47
16 Lebanese (Behar) 18.15
17 Kumyks (Yunusbayev) 18.18
18 Syrians (Behar) 20.11
19 Armenians (Behar) 20.8
20 Druze (HGDP) 21.4

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 95.2% Kurds (Yunusbayev) + 4.8% Savara (Chaubey) @ 2.3
2 95.2% Kurds (Yunusbayev) + 4.8% Kharia (Chaubey) @ 2.3
3 95.1% Kurds (Yunusbayev) + 4.9% Juang (Chaubey) @ 2.31
4 95.3% Kurds (Yunusbayev) + 4.7% Ho (Chaubey) @ 2.31
5 95.1% Kurds (Yunusbayev) + 4.9% BONDA (Chaubey) @ 2.31
6 88.7% Iranian (Dodecad) + 11.3% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 2.33
7 88% Iranian (Dodecad) + 12% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 2.4
8 88.9% Iranian (Dodecad) + 11.1% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) @ 2.42
9 71.9% Iranians (Behar) + 28.1% Turkish (Dodecad) @ 2.43
10 83.6% Iranian (Dodecad) + 16.4% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.45
11 95.2% Kurds (Yunusbayev) + 4.8% ASUR (Chaubey) @ 2.47
12 88.7% Iranian (Dodecad) + 11.3% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) @ 2.47
13 68.5% Iranians (Behar) + 31.5% Turks (Behar) @ 2.52
14 89.6% Iranian (Dodecad) + 10.4% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.61
15 95.2% Kurds (Yunusbayev) + 4.8% Nihali (Metspalu) @ 2.63
16 89.5% Iranian (Dodecad) + 10.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.66
17 87% Iranian (Dodecad) + 13% Jordanians (Behar) @ 2.75
18 95.8% Kurds (Yunusbayev) + 4.2% Pulliyar (Metspalu) @ 2.76
19 95.5% Kurds (Yunusbayev) + 4.5% MALAYAN (Behar) @ 2.76
20 95.1% Kurds (Yunusbayev) + 4.9% Gond (Metspalu) @ 2.78

Michał
10-13-2016, 10:50 AM
BTW anyone knows if the Iraqi from Najaf is Kurdish or some Iranian?
According to the information I got from the admin of the Iraqi project who runs kit 407716, this family lived in Iraq for at least three centuries, though they believe this patrilineage is of deep Caucasian or Russian ancestry, so they suspect their surname was Arabized at some point. BTW, I have no permission to reveal his surname.

MfA
10-13-2016, 11:09 AM
According to the information I got from the admin of the Iraqi project who runs kit 407716, this family lived in Iraq for at least three centuries, though they believe this patrilineage is of deep Caucasian or Russian ancestry, so they suspect their surname was Arabized at some point. BTW, I have no permission to reveal his surname.

Could be Caucasian Persians, Najaf is a Shia city as well.

Smilelover
10-15-2016, 07:37 PM
According to the information I got from the admin of the Iraqi project who runs kit 407716, this family lived in Iraq for at least three centuries, though they believe this patrilineage is of deep Caucasian or Russian ancestry, so they suspect their surname was Arabized at some point. BTW, I have no permission to reveal his surname.

He specifically named Georgia as the country that may have link with ..

Smilelover
10-16-2016, 04:07 PM
It seems that this line YP5018 includes all the countries surrounding the Caspian in addition to Turkey , armenia and georgia

Smilelover
10-21-2016, 04:33 PM
My yfull has been completed
What extra data can be usefull ?
What is my TMRCA with Qatari match ?
Is the name of SNP different than ftdna
I compare both just in fast? Any info about this

I joined R1a group there .. waiting for your help


Regards

lgmayka
10-21-2016, 06:11 PM
What is my TMRCA with Qatari match ?
The next version of YFull's haplotree will have a TMRCA for your R-YP5664 clade (https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP5664/).

Michał
10-21-2016, 08:25 PM
My yfull has been completed
What extra data can be usefull ?

It seems that your YFull analysis revealed a new SNP equivalent to YP5664 that was not reported (as a novel variant) by FTDNA. It has been named Y26647 (23734131 G>T).

BTW, I have only now realized that one of the 73 SNPs equivalent to YP5018 is CTS4975, a mutation tested by chromo2 (an SNP chip offered by BISDNA), so we know that one of the three R1a2 members from a group of 2000 BISDNA customers is positive for CTS4975 and thus is likely a member of clade YP5018 (his ID number is #1489). This also suggests that the two remaining R1a2 members reported by BISDNA (#1490 and #1806) most likely belong to clade YP4132.

Smilelover
10-22-2016, 10:46 AM
I found a very interesting map of R1a basal subclades

https://goo.gl/maps/MtLGATm2mtx

Theramster
10-23-2016, 04:01 PM
I found a very interesting map of R1a basal subclades

https://goo.gl/maps/MtLGATm2mtx

Russians ( and our friends in Eastern Europe) are doing a fantastic job for the R1a people. Amazing map. Hats off to whoever put it together.

Michał
10-23-2016, 09:45 PM
Hats off to whoever put it together.
These maps have been created by Igor Rozhanskii, an experienced (and very knowledgeable) genetic genealogist from Russia. He is also a co-admin in our R1a project at FTDNA.

Smilelover
11-11-2016, 06:01 PM
yfull estimated TMRCA of YP5664 with my qatari match at 2700 yrs
With iraqi match at yp5018 as 2900 yrs ..

Theramster
05-19-2017, 11:30 PM
16175

Here are my 111 STR values. I've noticed my line has been ignored here
http://suyun.info/index.php?LANG=ENG&p=4_15032017_3_3

Cheers,

Theramster
05-19-2017, 11:33 PM
Michal,

16175

Here are my 111 STR values. I've noticed my line has been ignored
here
http://suyun.info/index.php?LANG=ENG&p=4_15032017_3_3

There are YP1272 samples quoted in the article I know nothing about like one from Puero Rico and several from the US. Could you elaborate?

Cheers,

Smilelover
05-20-2017, 08:54 AM
i read the article for YP4141

3 Scotland
9 UK
1 Germany, South
2 Turkey
1 Turkey, Kurd
2 Qatar
1 Yemen
11 United States
1 Puerto Rico


FOR SURE THERE IS RESULTS NOT IN R1A PROJECT , THATS WHY I THINK ITS HIDDEN FROM US

THERE IS ALSO RESULTS FROM IRAQ,LEBANON, UAE , IRELAND,ITALY, SPAIN NOT COUNTED BECAUSE MARKERS LESS THAN 67

Theramster
03-14-2020, 04:39 AM
Just a quick update substantiating my 2016 impression. The Tunisian YP1276 under YP1272 became Y53588 with TMRCA estimated at 4700 bpy ( The irony that it was estimated to have a TMRCA with the Belarussian at 3900 bpy. How could YP1276>Y53588 be older than YP1276*? It is unclear, unless some inaccuracies in classification have occurred previously or recently).

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP1272/

The point here being that as previously elucidated the Tunisian represents an earlier differentiation among the known YP1272 samples as mine represents an even earlier breaking off. This is what was meant by older (i.e. earlier differentiation relative to known samples). I always conceived of the tree in terms of order of separation, like passengers on a train. My branch got off the train early on. The Tunisian shared more time with others on the train before getting off. The others got off the train later with more time ( mutations) together.

Darko
03-14-2020, 09:04 PM
Just a quick update substantiating my 2016 impression. The Tunisian YP1276 under YP1272 became Y53588 with TMRCA estimated at 4700 bpy ( The irony that it was estimated to have a TMRCA with the Belarussian at 3900 bpy. How could YP1276>Y53588 be older than YP1276*? It is unclear, unless some inaccuracies in classification have occurred previously or recently).

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP1272/

The point here being that as previously elucidated the Tunisian represents an earlier differentiation among the known YP1272 samples as mine represents an even earlier breaking off. This is what was meant by older (i.e. earlier differentiation relative to known samples). I always conceived of the tree in terms of order of separation, like passengers on a train. My branch got off the train early on. The Tunisian shared more time with others on the train before getting off. The others got off the train later with more time ( mutations) together.
Also it seems strange that R-YP1276 and it's new subclade Y53588 have the same TMRCA 4700 BP.

JoeyP37
03-14-2020, 10:01 PM
It does, but in my subclade line the clade YP619, its descendant YP444, YP444's descendant YP443, and YP443's descendant YP446 ALL have the TMRCA of 1750 ybp. My YP445, descendant of YP443, has the origin year of 1750 ybp, and its MRCA of 1350 ybp.