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Caratacus
08-28-2016, 09:37 AM
This study from the last year . . .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-35344663
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3407267/The-English-one-Anglo-Saxon-Study-reveals-time-immigrants-mixed-British-population.html

. . . concluded that the East English had AngloSaxon admixture of 38% but that the Welsh (and Scots) had only a bit less at 30%. I suppose the simplest explanation is that the AS genes have spread fairly evenly around the whole of Great Britain during the last 1500 years, but the People of the British Isles project did find differences between the Welsh and English, including the absence of any NW German in the Welsh and only ~3% Danish compared to ~13% NW German and ~10% Danish in the English. Are the findings of these two studies compatible?

08-28-2016, 10:30 AM
Hey Caractucus, My theory is, that its a mislabelling or wishlabelling on behalf of these grouos who say its Anglo Saxon, My Theory is we should replace the Anglo Saxon with La Tene Celtic, then it should read correct,and make much more sense with Welsh and Scottish populations, La Tene Celtic then contrasts to the Halstadt Celtic Migrations which are shown up and Labelled also incorrectly as Irish. So if we substract the Halstat and La Tene elements that should give us the % of Anglo Saxon/Viking element in English, Scottish, Welsh, and Irish ancestry Dna, well thats my theory anyway. :beerchug:

sweuro
08-28-2016, 11:04 AM
Anglo-Saxons have a lot of genetic overlap with British ISles, the whole Northwest-European region has a lot of overlap, so there's no way to determine Anglo-Saxon input. Also, the Welsh are very similar to the English.

08-28-2016, 11:14 AM
Anglo-Saxons have a lot of genetic overlap with British ISles, the whole Northwest-European region has a lot of overlap, so there's no way to determine Anglo-Saxon input. Also, the Welsh are very similar to the English.

Yes but that doesnt make either of them predominantly Anglo Saxon, just makes them have allot of Hallstadt and La Tene Celtic, and differing degrees of Viking/ Anglo Saxon.

sweuro
08-28-2016, 11:50 AM
Yes but that doesnt make either of them predominantly Anglo Saxon, just makes them have allot of Hallstadt and La Tene Celtic, and differing degrees of Viking/ Anglo Saxon.
I don't understand what do you mean. It's based on Anglo-Saxon samples, not Celtic.

rms2
08-28-2016, 12:26 PM
What I got out of those articles is that the eastern English are more like the modern Dutch and Danes than the Welsh and Scots are, but that the Welsh and Scots are somewhat like the modern Dutch and Danes. Past studies have shown that northern Europeans pretty closely resemble one another autosomally and have to be teased apart for their differences. I don't think this means that the Welsh and Scots are literally "30% Anglo-Saxon".

Jean M
08-28-2016, 12:55 PM
This study from the last year . . .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-35344663
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3407267/The-English-one-Anglo-Saxon-Study-reveals-time-immigrants-mixed-British-population.html

. . . concluded that the East English had AngloSaxon admixture of 38% but that the Welsh (and Scots) had only a bit less at 30%.

The Schiffels paper says:


To quantify the ancestry fractions, we fit the modern British samples with a mixture model of ancient components, by placing all the samples on a linear axis of relative Dutch allele sharing that integrates data from allele counts 1–5 (Fig. 2b, Supplementary Note 3). By this measure the East England samples are consistent with 38% Anglo-Saxon ancestry on average, with a large spread from 25 to 50%, and the Welsh and Scottish samples are consistent with 30% Anglo-Saxon ancestry on average, again with a large spread (Supplementary Table 4). These numbers are lower on average if we exclude the low-coverage individual HS3 from the Anglo-Saxon group (35% for East English samples). A similar result is obtained when we analyse modern British samples from the 1,000 Genomes Project, which exhibit a strong substructure (Supplementary Note 4, Supplementary Fig. 4). We find that samples from Kent show a similar Anglo-Saxon component of 37% when compared against Finnish and Spanish outgroups, with a lower value for samples from Cornwall (Supplementary Fig. 5a, Supplementary Table 4).

An alternative and potentially more direct approach to estimate these fractions is to measure rare allele sharing directly between the modern British and the ancient samples. While being much noisier than the analysis using Dutch and Spanish outgroups, this yields consistent results (Supplementary Fig. 5b, Supplementary Note 3). In summary, this analysis suggests that on average 25–40% of the ancestry of modern Britons was contributed by Anglo-Saxon immigrants, with the higher number in East England closer to the immigrant source. The difference between groups within Britain is surprisingly small compared with the large differences seen in the ancient samples. This is true for both the UK10K samples and for the British samples from the 1,000 Genomes project, although we note that the UK10K sample locations may not fully reflect historical geographical population structure because of recent population mixing.

One caveat of our analysis is that we are using the three Iron Age samples from Cambridgeshire as proxies for the indigenous British population, which no doubt was structured, though it seems reasonable to take these as representatives at least for Eastern England. Furthermore, any continental genetic contribution from the Romano-British period would be factored into the assigned Anglo-Saxon component, as would a late Anglo-Saxon Scandinavian or Norman contribution. However these effects would only be strong if the contribution was large and heavily biased on the Dutch–Spanish axis.

In short - there has been a lot of mixing of populations within Britain since the Anglo-Saxon land-grab. For many centuries people from the Celtic fringe have been moving (back) to the lands held by their ancestors in what is now England. Meanwhile there has been an English flow in the opposite direction.

What is now Scotland has not been 100% free of Anglo-Saxons and similar since c. AD 550. The present Scotland is an amalgam of lowland Scots of Anglo-Saxon descent and highlanders and islanders of mixed Celt and Viking origin. And the lowlands have always been more heavily settled. Details for Wales follow.

Jean M
08-28-2016, 12:57 PM
Wales is most heavily settled along the coast, or in areas with good arable land or the former mining valleys: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Population_density_map_in_Wales_from_the_2011 _census.png

Low-lying Anglesey was the grainstore of Gwent and it was protected from conquest by the sea and Snowdonia pretty well until Edward I grabbed it and built http://cadw.gov.wales/daysout/caernarfon-castle/ Edward I laid out the present town of Caernarfon beside his castle. Whether he encouraged English settlement there I don't know. But the Welsh language is spoken by the vast majority of the population of the town, with almost 98% of 10-14-year-olds able to speak it fluently, according to http://www.information-britain.co.uk/history/town/Caernarfon68/ .

So I would expect a lower Anglo-Saxon component there than in the largely English-speaking south of Pembrokeshire ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_England_beyond_Wales ) and south-east of Wales https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Welsh_speakers_in_the_2011_census.png

A map showing the percentage of people living in Wales at the census of 2011 who were born in England: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Born_In_England_2011_Census_Wales.png

That's just the most recent immigration.

rms2
08-28-2016, 01:12 PM
I wonder how much of that is IBD (Identity by Descent) versus simply IBS (Identity by State). Take some old Anglo-Saxon remains, find what they have in common with likely AS source populations, Dutch and Danes, in this case modern Dutch and Danes, and then find how much of that is shared by modern Britons. It seems much safer to me to attribute that shared element in the eastern English to IBD with the Anglo-Saxons (especially Anglo-Saxons who were actually unearthed in eastern England) than it is to attribute it to IBD in the Welsh and Scots rather than to a kind of shared northern European IBS.

avalon
08-28-2016, 01:20 PM
This study from the last year . . .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-35344663
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3407267/The-English-one-Anglo-Saxon-Study-reveals-time-immigrants-mixed-British-population.html

. . . concluded that the East English had AngloSaxon admixture of 38% but that the Welsh (and Scots) had only a bit less at 30%. I suppose the simplest explanation is that the AS genes have spread fairly evenly around the whole of Great Britain during the last 1500 years, but the People of the British Isles project did find differences between the Welsh and English, including the absence of any NW German in the Welsh and only ~3% Danish compared to ~13% NW German and ~10% Danish in the English. Are the findings of these two studies compatible?

I think it basically comes down to which modern Welsh people you sample in a DNA study. Most Welsh people today have some form of English ancestry (certainly going by a recent surname study in which 65% of modern Welsh have a non-Welsh surname) although obviously it will vary depending on an individual's genealogy, location in Wales, etc. Most of this English input has arrived in Wales during the last few hundred years but obviously there was earlier English migration in Tudor and in medieval times.

So for example, if you sample DNA from people in Cardiff, Newport, Wrexham, the Valleys, the north Wales coast (i.e where the vast bulk of the population lives) then you will probably pick up a lot of English (i.e Anglo-Saxon) admixture from last 250 years. But the POBI sampled people from rural Gwynedd in the NW so this is the heartland of the Welsh language and the area where you would expect the smallest amount or zero English/Anglo -Saxon input from history so results would be different.

Jean M
08-28-2016, 02:05 PM
I wonder how much of that is IBD (Identity by Descent) versus simply IBS (Identity by State). Take some old Anglo-Saxon remains, find what they have in common with likely AS source populations, Dutch and Danes, in this case modern Dutch and Danes, and then find how much of that is shared by modern Britons. It seems much safer to me to attribute that shared element in the eastern English to IBD with the Anglo-Saxons (especially Anglo-Saxons who were actually unearthed in eastern England) than it is to attribute it to IBD in the Welsh and Scots rather than to a kind of shared northern European IBS.

Could you explain that in a little more detail? The figures in Schiffels 2016 table 4 use outgroup populations (Dutch and Finnish vs. Spanish), but I frankly do not understand the maths.

11226

08-28-2016, 02:36 PM
I don't understand what do you mean. It's based on Anglo-Saxon samples, not Celtic.

Hi, it is not based on Ancient Anglo Saxon samples, its based on modern white British people from Eng, Wales, Scotland, and N Ireland, there is a gigantic difference between this and ancient Anglo Saxon, hence why I replaced Anglo Saxon with La Tene Celtic to represent the British component, and I suppose Halstade can represent Irish and West Britain.

Dubhthach
08-28-2016, 04:51 PM
This study from the last year . . .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-35344663
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3407267/The-English-one-Anglo-Saxon-Study-reveals-time-immigrants-mixed-British-population.html

. . . concluded that the East English had AngloSaxon admixture of 38% but that the Welsh (and Scots) had only a bit less at 30%. I suppose the simplest explanation is that the AS genes have spread fairly evenly around the whole of Great Britain during the last 1500 years, but the People of the British Isles project did find differences between the Welsh and English, including the absence of any NW German in the Welsh and only ~3% Danish compared to ~13% NW German and ~10% Danish in the English. Are the findings of these two studies compatible?

I could be wrong but their sample size for Wales and scotland were on order of n=10 -> n=20, eg. fairly small sample sizes to compare with.

rms2
08-28-2016, 05:07 PM
Could you explain that in a little more detail? The figures in Schiffels 2016 table 4 use outgroup populations (Dutch and Finnish vs. Spanish), but I frankly do not understand the maths . . .



I really don't have more detail. I was basing what I wrote on the articles linked in the original post. Based on them, it seemed to me the researchers took old Anglo-Saxon remains and found what they shared in common with modern people who live in the Anglo-Saxon source regions of the Netherlands and Denmark. Then they looked for those elements in modern Britons and attributed them to Anglo-Saxon descent. I am wondering how much of that is actually due to a kind of shared northern European heritage rather than to actual descent from Anglo-Saxons. I think it more likely to be attributable to Anglo-Saxon descent in eastern England, especially since it was there that the Anglo-Saxon remains were unearthed, than it is in Wales and Scotland.

Jean M
08-28-2016, 05:10 PM
I am wondering how much of that is actually due to a kind of shared northern European heritage rather than to actual descent from Anglo-Saxons. I think it more likely to be attributable to Anglo-Saxon descent in eastern England, especially since it was there that the Anglo-Saxon remains were unearthed, than it is in Wales and Scotland.

I follow completely now, thank you. I agree.

Dubhthach
08-28-2016, 05:25 PM
http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10408/images/m685/ncomms10408-f2.jpg



(a) The ratio of the numbers of rare alleles shared with modern Dutch and Spanish samples as a function of the allele count in the set of modern samples. Ancient sample codes (left-hand and middle sections) are defined in Table 1. Results from present-day British individuals (right hand panel) are averaged over 10 individuals from each subpopulation. Results from a Dutch and a Spanish individual are shown for comparison. Error bars are calculated from raw count statistics and using s.e. propagation (Methods section). (b) The relative fraction of rare alleles shared with modern Dutch compared with Spanish alleles, integrated up to allele count five in the modern samples. Iron Age and Anglo-Saxon samples mark the two extremes on this projection, while modern samples are spread between them, indicating mixed levels of Anglo-Saxon ancestry, which is on average higher in East England than in Wales and Scotland, with a large overlap. Two Early Anglo-Saxon samples from Oakington have been excluded from computing the average, indicated by empty circles, because they show evidence for being admixed (O3) or of non-immigrant ancestry (O4). One modern sample from Scotland is also excluded, indidated as empty circle because it is a clear outlier with respect to all other Scottish samples. Samples are shown with a random vertical offset for better clarity. Error bars (Methods section) for the modern samples are omitted here, but of the same order of magnitude as for the ancient samples. Data for this figure is available as Supplementary Data 1.


So yeah those figures are based on 10 people from each population group eg. 10 Welsh, 10 Scots and 10 English (along with Dutch ⁊ Spanish I imagine) compared to ancient samples, it's ridiculously small sample size.

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10408

avalon
08-28-2016, 05:45 PM
Wales is most heavily settled along the coast, or in areas with good arable land or the former mining valleys: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Population_density_map_in_Wales_from_the_2011 _census.png

Low-lying Anglesey was the grainstore of Gwent and it was protected from conquest by the sea and Snowdonia pretty well until Edward I grabbed it and built http://cadw.gov.wales/daysout/caernarfon-castle/ Edward I laid out the present town of Caernarfon beside his castle. Whether he encouraged English settlement there I don't know. But the Welsh language is spoken by the vast majority of the population of the town, with almost 98% of 10-14-year-olds able to speak it fluently, according to http://www.information-britain.co.uk/history/town/Caernarfon68/ .

So I would expect a lower Anglo-Saxon component there than in the largely English-speaking south of Pembrokeshire ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_England_beyond_Wales ) and south-east of Wales https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Welsh_speakers_in_the_2011_census.png

A map showing the percentage of people living in Wales at the census of 2011 who were born in England: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Born_In_England_2011_Census_Wales.png

That's just the most recent immigration.

Caernarfon is an interesting case, nowadays one of the strongest Welsh speaking towns but like you said, established as a castle garrison by Edward. I think English settlement was encouraged in these castle towns in North Wales but I don't know what lasting genetic impact it had.


"In discussing the development of Edwardian towns in north Wales, it is important to remember that these new "settlers" faced tremendous obstacles in what was basically hostile territory. Edward's new towns were populated with English settlers in the midst of defeated native Welsh populations. In the early years especially, English settlers had to be on constant alert against attack, and often the castle was the last place of refuge. In many instances, buildings and crops within and outside towns were destroyed as the result of raids by a frustrated native population. In time, most of Edward's new towns did achieve a kind of uneasy peace with their neighbors, however Welshmen were often forbidden to enter a town or conduct trade within its walls or in the surrounding districts. In some cases, if a Welshman was found within the town walls after sundown, he could be taken to the castle and hanged. Restrictions against the Welsh varied in severity from town to town, but these unequal privileges caused tensions and frustrations that culminated in the Glyn Dwr revolt, a remarkable national uprising during the early years of the 15th century. The burgesses may well have enjoyed special privileges within the walls of Edward's new towns, but those privileges often came at a terrible price.
http://www.castlewales.com/bastide.html

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-28-2016, 08:24 PM
Isn't it fairly unlikely though, given the potential number of our ancestors even in comparatively recent times that say a Welsh person would have absolutely no "Anglo/Saxon" or similar ancestors?
I've traced my ancestors mainly to agriculture in the Welsh border areas, where you might not expect too much population movement, but over the last couple of hundred years I've found marriages to women from Lincolnshire and Oxfordshire. How they became connected to the Welsh Borders (possibly cattle droving?) I'm not absolutely sure. People did inter-marry even across considerable distances, maybe more than we appreciate.

avalon
08-28-2016, 08:28 PM
http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10408/images/m685/ncomms10408-f2.jpg



So yeah those figures are based on 10 people from each population group eg. 10 Welsh, 10 Scots and 10 English (along with Dutch ⁊ Spanish I imagine) compared to ancient samples, it's ridiculously small sample size.

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10408

It makes you wonder why a credible scientific study would draw conclusions based on such small sample sizes?

sweuro
08-28-2016, 08:38 PM
Hi, it is not based on Ancient Anglo Saxon samples, its based on modern white British people from Eng, Wales, Scotland, and N Ireland, there is a gigantic difference between this and ancient Anglo Saxon, hence why I replaced Anglo Saxon with La Tene Celtic to represent the British component, and I suppose Halstade can represent Irish and West Britain.
No, besides the modern populations they also have the anglo-saxon genomes.

Caratacus
08-29-2016, 03:32 AM
It makes you wonder why a credible scientific study would draw conclusions based on such small sample sizes?Indeed. The samples are simply too small to be of statistical significance and all these studies that use remains from a few ancient individuals can only be considered pilot studies.


The Schiffels paper says:In short - there has been a lot of mixing of populations within Britain since the Anglo-Saxon land-grab. For many centuries people from the Celtic fringe have been moving (back) to the lands held by their ancestors in what is now England. Meanwhile there has been an English flow in the opposite direction.

What is now Scotland has not been 100% free of Anglo-Saxons and similar since c. AD 550. The present Scotland is an amalgam of lowland Scots of Anglo-Saxon descent and highlanders and islanders of mixed Celt and Viking origin. And the lowlands have always been more heavily settled. Details for Wales follow.But, as I pointed out, the PotBI study found clear differences between English and Welsh regarding comparison with modern Danes and NW Germans and I think it remains the gold standard.

Schiffels study: "...we note that the UK10K sample locations may not fully reflect historical geographical population structure because of recent population mixing"

Why didn't they use PotBI's stringent samples of present British populations? I find it strange that researchers covering the same topics do not cooperate and share data, and until they do then progress will be limited.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-29-2016, 06:17 AM
"Why didn't they use PotBI's stringent samples of present British populations? I find it strange that researchers covering the same topics do not cooperate and share data, and until they do then progress will be limited."
When I started with dna testing I had the silly notion that organisations actually shared results and information to advance research. We could learn a lot more if they did.

Captain Nordic
08-29-2016, 07:35 AM
So if the Welsh really do have 30% anglo saxon ancestry and the English only 38% then why are they (the Welsh) almost indistinguishable from Iron age Brythonic Celtic samples while the English are clearly different?
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/images/ncomms10326-f3.jpg

50-100% of all (Central) English males descend from Anglo saxons according to this study, but these genetic markers are not found in Wales:
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/19/7/1008.full

In fact, according to many studies, the English Y chromosomal ancestry is almost indistinguishable to that of the Frisians.

Here's the frequency of the Germanic R1b-U106 haplogroup in Europe:
11236

The Welsh have very low frequencies of this haplogroup compared to the English yet their Anglo Saxon ancestry is somehow supposed to be 30%?

08-29-2016, 08:08 AM
Isn't it fairly unlikely though, given the potential number of our ancestors even in comparatively recent times that say a Welsh person would have absolutely no "Anglo/Saxon" or similar ancestors?
I've traced my ancestors mainly to agriculture in the Welsh border areas, where you might not expect too much population movement, but over the last couple of hundred years I've found marriages to women from Lincolnshire and Oxfordshire. How they became connected to the Welsh Borders (possibly cattle droving?) I'm not absolutely sure. People did inter-marry even across considerable distances, maybe more than we appreciate.

Hey John, I cannot take my ancestry further back that 1800, yet have odd haplogroups for a Welsh person, and Scottish surname, but all for the last 200 yrs spoke Welsh or irish Gaelic, so I think your are probably correct, if we take the US Colonies for example there is allot written about "indentured servants", who were more or less slaves for a time period, I imagine similar things happened in the UK, and droving is a good example of meeting different populations in UK in relatively modern times, going even further back, slavery was very big business, not just for the Vikings, but for many of the Petty Kingdoms that rose and fell within the UK.

avalon
08-29-2016, 09:24 AM
Isn't it fairly unlikely though, given the potential number of our ancestors even in comparatively recent times that say a Welsh person would have absolutely no "Anglo/Saxon" or similar ancestors?
I've traced my ancestors mainly to agriculture in the Welsh border areas, where you might not expect too much population movement, but over the last couple of hundred years I've found marriages to women from Lincolnshire and Oxfordshire. How they became connected to the Welsh Borders (possibly cattle droving?) I'm not absolutely sure. People did inter-marry even across considerable distances, maybe more than we appreciate.

I think nowadays it is probably rare that a person born in Wales has exclusive Welsh ancestry but from my own experience of North Wales I think there are probably still some people in rural, Welsh speaking communities in places like Snowdonia and Llyn Peninsula who have very little or no English ancestry.

I have cousins in North Wales whose paper trail including census and church records goes back quite far and all the surnames are exclusively Welsh.

To give you an example, Llanuwchyllyn is a village of about 800 people in Snowdonia, is still about 80% Welsh speaking and probably hasn't changed that much in centuries. Relatively isolated, even in medieval times I suspect English influence was minimal in this area, situated as it is a fair distance from the English castle boroughs of North Wales.

Looking at the census return from 1891, I can only find a four non-Welsh surnames out of 1200 inhabitants, Woodfine family (gamekeeper), Bower (school teacher), Braithwaite (river watcher) and Campbell (Fisherman) and they are all recent arrivals from Cheshire and Scotland, judging by their occupations they were probably employed by the local English land owner.

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MER/Llanuwchllyn#Census

Captain Nordic
08-29-2016, 02:19 PM
I think nowadays it is probably rare that a person born in Wales has exclusive Welsh ancestry but from my own experience of North Wales I think there are probably still some people in rural, Welsh speaking communities in places like Snowdonia and Llyn Peninsula who have very little or no English ancestry.

I have cousins in North Wales whose paper trail including census and church records goes back quite far and all the surnames are exclusively Welsh.

To give you an example, Llanuwchyllyn is a village of about 800 people in Snowdonia, is still about 80% Welsh speaking and probably hasn't changed that much in centuries. Relatively isolated, even in medieval times I suspect English influence was minimal in this area, situated as it is a fair distance from the English castle boroughs of North Wales.

Looking at the census return from 1891, I can only find a four non-Welsh surnames out of 1200 inhabitants, Woodfine family (gamekeeper), Bower (school teacher), Braithwaite (river watcher) and Campbell (Fisherman) and they are all recent arrivals from Cheshire and Scotland, judging by their occupations they were probably employed by the local English land owner.

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MER/Llanuwchllyn#Census

Even if most Welsh people do have some English ancestry, it does not make any sense to call them 30% Anglo Saxon genetically on average. Pretty sure that most Welsh people are not 50% + English genetically ;)

08-29-2016, 04:52 PM
Even if most Welsh people do have some English ancestry, it does not make any sense to call them 30% Anglo Saxon genetically on average. Pretty sure that most Welsh people are not 50% + English genetically ;)

Hey Captain N, this is my exact point about not to call it "Anglo Saxon" there is a common genetic heritage between Eng, and Wales, before the Roman/ Anglo Saxon Invasions, call it Proto Celtic/ Halstadt/La Tene, whatever, this is the biggest component that they have in common. Roman,Angle,Jute,Frisian,Saxon,Dane,Norwegian,Norm an, are all smaller elements to both to a varying degree.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-29-2016, 05:23 PM
I think nowadays it is probably rare that a person born in Wales has exclusive Welsh ancestry but from my own experience of North Wales I think there are probably still some people in rural, Welsh speaking communities in places like Snowdonia and Llyn Peninsula who have very little or no English ancestry.

I have cousins in North Wales whose paper trail including census and church records goes back quite far and all the surnames are exclusively Welsh.

To give you an example, Llanuwchyllyn is a village of about 800 people in Snowdonia, is still about 80% Welsh speaking and probably hasn't changed that much in centuries. Relatively isolated, even in medieval times I suspect English influence was minimal in this area, situated as it is a fair distance from the English castle boroughs of North Wales.

Looking at the census return from 1891, I can only find a four non-Welsh surnames out of 1200 inhabitants, Woodfine family (gamekeeper), Bower (school teacher), Braithwaite (river watcher) and Campbell (Fisherman) and they are all recent arrivals from Cheshire and Scotland, judging by their occupations they were probably employed by the local English land owner.

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MER/Llanuwchllyn#Census

Maybe Welsh surnames aren't always a reliable indicator, being relatively recent, like mine for example and I'm U106. I would have bet money that I wouldn't turn out U106, just based on my surname :)
I think myself that the extent to which Wales is portrayed as "isolated" is a bit exaggerated, as most of it is reasonably accessible by land and no-where is very far from the sea. I mean in the context of some notion of "pure" Welsh dna, although certain influences may be more obvious than others in certain locations possibly?

sweuro
08-29-2016, 05:40 PM
Hey Captain N, this is my exact point about not to call it "Anglo Saxon" there is a common genetic heritage between Eng, and Wales, before the Roman/ Anglo Saxon Invasions, call it Proto Celtic/ Halstadt/La Tene, whatever, this is the biggest component that they have in common. Roman,Angle,Jute,Frisian,Saxon,Dane,Norwegian,Norm an, are all smaller elements to both to a varying degree.
Bronze Age central-europeans would also be a common source population for all british/irish. I agree that all the more modern invasions are small contributions.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-29-2016, 05:42 PM
"Even if most Welsh people do have some English ancestry, it does not make any sense to call them 30% Anglo Saxon genetically on average. Pretty sure that most Welsh people are not 50% + English genetically "
Actually the majority of the population live in the bigger cities and the former industrialised areas of the South Wales valleys which saw a very considerable amount of migration from England, other parts of Wales and Ireland, amongst other places.
Add to that a relatively long Eastern land border with England with movement both ways for thousands of years and along the coastal corridors in the North and South.
"For reasons of history and geography urban life came late to Wales, compared with other parts
of western Europe. Until only two and a half centuries ago Wales was a predominantly rural and
agricultural country with a population of probably not much more than 500,000 living in small and
scattered communities. ............During the course of the second half of the 19th century growth in Wales three biggest coalexporting
ports – Cardiff, Swansea and Newport - mushroomed. Cardiff grew from 1,500 people
at the turn of the previous century to 200,000 people a hundred years later; Swansea’s population
reached 150,000; and Newport almost 100,000. With hundreds of thousands of people moving
into the south Wales coalfield in the latter half of the 19th century from other parts of Wales and
from adjoining areas of England, by the end of the 19th century Glamorgan and Monmouthshire
accounted for well over half the population of Wales. "

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiFrpWulOfOAhXDWxoKHS57AxoQFgg7MAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iwa.wales%2Fclick%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F4_Factfile_Settlements.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFcBSuEPiJ8D-OmfGMHb0kXxR6_uQ

08-29-2016, 05:47 PM
Maybe Welsh surnames aren't always a reliable indicator, being relatively recent, like mine for example and I'm U106. I would have bet money that I wouldn't turn out U106, just based on my surname :)
I think myself that the extent to which Wales is portrayed as "isolated" is a bit exaggerated, as most of it is reasonably accessible by land and no-where is very far from the sea. I mean in the context of some notion of "pure" Welsh dna, although certain influences may be more obvious than others in certain locations possibly?
Ditto, surnames are not even as indicitive as haplogroups, Mamma's baby, Pappa's maybe! I also before my dna test would have sworn to have been R1b somthing. But..... Not.. Surprise surprise.

08-29-2016, 05:58 PM
Bronze Age central-europeans would also be a common source population for all british/irish. I agree that all the more modern invasions are small contributions.
Hey sweuro, yes agreed, I have put them populations down as Halstadt and La Tene.

avalon
08-29-2016, 09:01 PM
Even if most Welsh people do have some English ancestry, it does not make any sense to call them 30% Anglo Saxon genetically on average. Pretty sure that most Welsh people are not 50% + English genetically ;)

I agree, the 30% figure is misleading. For a start the Anglo-Saxons never even settled in Wales. ;)

In terms the amount of English ancestry within the Welsh population, difficult to quantify but it probably is high for the average Welshman. Migration to Wales within the last 250 years has been substantial and one study I have read estimated that only 35% of the Welsh population has a Welsh surname. If that figure is correct, and I see no reason to doubt it, then yes I would say the Welsh on average have a lot of English ancestry, quite possibly +50%.

Just to add, the major population centres in Wales (Cardiff, Newport, Wrexham, Swansea, etc) are also areas that have seen most considerable in-migration over the years.

http://gov.wales/statistics-and-research/welsh-diaspora-analysis-geography-welsh-names/?lang=en

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-29-2016, 09:27 PM
I agree, the 30% figure is misleading. For a start the Anglo-Saxons never even settled in Wales. ;)

In terms the amount of English ancestry within the Welsh population, difficult to quantify but it probably is high for the average Welshman. Migration to Wales within the last 250 years has been substantial and one study I have read estimated that only 35% of the Welsh population has a Welsh surname. If that figure is correct, and I see no reason to doubt it, then yes I would say the Welsh on average have a lot of English ancestry, quite possibly +50%.

Just to add, the major population centres in Wales (Cardiff, Newport, Wrexham, Swansea, etc) are also areas that have seen most considerable in-migration over the years.

http://gov.wales/statistics-and-research/welsh-diaspora-analysis-geography-welsh-names/?lang=en

Re; the link I posted above, if the estimated population of Wales was in the region of 500,000 up to the end of the 18th Century and rose to well over 2,000,000 by the 20th Century, the statistics probably speak for themselves. Even during earlier periods there would have surely been some "external" genetic influences over a long period.
Perhaps we shouldn't forget that there are also ancient "Welsh" genetic influences amongst the English.Sometimes people tend to associate English with exclusively Anglo/Saxon and maybe it's a bit more complicated than that. :)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-29-2016, 09:40 PM
Ditto, surnames are not even as indicitive as haplogroups, Mamma's baby, Pappa's maybe! I also before my dna test would have sworn to have been R1b somthing. But..... Not.. Surprise surprise.

As I understand it, the Welsh "Ap" ( son of) created surnames such as 'Powell, 'Preece, 'Price, 'Probert etc.
The Anglicised equivalent was to add an "s" to denote son of, so even Welsh sounding names like Howell(s) William(s) Jone(s) Davie(s) are using an "English" form. So you could have someone whose father's Christian name was Hywel who could either end up being Ap Hywel (Powell) or Hywel's Son (Howells). :)

avalon
08-29-2016, 09:54 PM
Maybe Welsh surnames aren't always a reliable indicator, being relatively recent, like mine for example and I'm U106. I would have bet money that I wouldn't turn out U106, just based on my surname :)
I think myself that the extent to which Wales is portrayed as "isolated" is a bit exaggerated, as most of it is reasonably accessible by land and no-where is very far from the sea. I mean in the context of some notion of "pure" Welsh dna, although certain influences may be more obvious than others in certain locations possibly?

I would agree that surnames aren't 100% reliable but generally speaking a Welsh surname likely indicates that the bearer has deep paternal ancestry in Wales. Although the Welsh did fix surnames late, the English did it much earlier so from 1200/1300s onwards English surnames start appearing in Wales with English migrants, although I am sure there were plenty of cases of English people settling in Wales during medieval times then adopting a Welsh name in 1600s or whenever.

I take your point about isolation, very difficult for anywhere in Britain to remain truly isolated but the Welsh have kept their language which is unique within Britain and so you've got Celtic language continuity in Wales going back 2000 years, which IMO can't have been achieved without some level of isolation from English influence and also lot of intermarriage within Welsh speaking communities. There were still elderly, monoglot Welsh speakers as recently as the 1960s in rural parts of North Wales which was quite remarkable IMO.

I have also read recently about the possibility of genetic drift within Wales. As I understand it this tends to occur in smaller, relatively isolated populations.

rms2
08-29-2016, 10:58 PM
As I understand it, the Welsh "Ap" ( son of) created surnames such as 'Powell, 'Preece, 'Price, 'Probert etc.
The Anglicised equivalent was to add an "s" to denote son of, so even Welsh sounding names like Howell(s) William(s) Jone(s) Davie(s) are using an "English" form. So you could have someone whose father's Christian name was Hywel who could either end up being Ap Hywel (Powell) or Hywel's Son (Howells). :)

My surname was one of those that took the s ending.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-30-2016, 07:20 AM
I would agree that surnames aren't 100% reliable but generally speaking a Welsh surname likely indicates that the bearer has deep paternal ancestry in Wales. Although the Welsh did fix surnames late, the English did it much earlier so from 1200/1300s onwards English surnames start appearing in Wales with English migrants, although I am sure there were plenty of cases of English people settling in Wales during medieval times then adopting a Welsh name in 1600s or whenever.

I take your point about isolation, very difficult for anywhere in Britain to remain truly isolated but the Welsh have kept their language which is unique within Britain and so you've got Celtic language continuity in Wales going back 2000 years, which IMO can't have been achieved without some level of isolation from English influence and also lot of intermarriage within Welsh speaking communities. There were still elderly, monoglot Welsh speakers as recently as the 1960s in rural parts of North Wales which was quite remarkable IMO.

I have also read recently about the possibility of genetic drift within Wales. As I understand it this tends to occur in smaller, relatively isolated populations.

Yes very good point.
I've been pondering Snowdonia and the more isolated parts of Wales and whether they are representative of the rest of the Country. I suppose they have always been relatively isolated compared to elsewhere, so maybe even 1,000 years ago such places weren't entirely representative of the rest of the Country? No doubt though that this "isolation " and difference has become relatively more apparent over the last couple of hundred years or so because of the levels of migration during the industrial revolution.
Before then, even East Wales where I live was Welsh Speaking and supposedly a few older individuals within living memory could only speak welsh.

Captain Nordic
08-30-2016, 07:59 AM
"Even if most Welsh people do have some English ancestry, it does not make any sense to call them 30% Anglo Saxon genetically on average. Pretty sure that most Welsh people are not 50% + English genetically "
Actually the majority of the population live in the bigger cities and the former industrialised areas of the South Wales valleys which saw a very considerable amount of migration from England, other parts of Wales and Ireland, amongst other places.
Add to that a relatively long Eastern land border with England with movement both ways for thousands of years and along the coastal corridors in the North and South.
"For reasons of history and geography urban life came late to Wales, compared with other parts
of western Europe. Until only two and a half centuries ago Wales was a predominantly rural and
agricultural country with a population of probably not much more than 500,000 living in small and
scattered communities. ............During the course of the second half of the 19th century growth in Wales three biggest coalexporting
ports – Cardiff, Swansea and Newport - mushroomed. Cardiff grew from 1,500 people
at the turn of the previous century to 200,000 people a hundred years later; Swansea’s population
reached 150,000; and Newport almost 100,000. With hundreds of thousands of people moving
into the south Wales coalfield in the latter half of the 19th century from other parts of Wales and
from adjoining areas of England, by the end of the 19th century Glamorgan and Monmouthshire
accounted for well over half the population of Wales. "

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiFrpWulOfOAhXDWxoKHS57AxoQFgg7MAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iwa.wales%2Fclick%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F4_Factfile_Settlements.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFcBSuEPiJ8D-OmfGMHb0kXxR6_uQ

I'm talking about recent English ancestry dating back a few centuries, not from thousands of years ago...
Once again, i am pretty sure that most Welsh people are NOT 50% + of recent English ancestry.

Captain Nordic
08-30-2016, 08:07 AM
I agree, the 30% figure is misleading. For a start the Anglo-Saxons never even settled in Wales. ;)

In terms the amount of English ancestry within the Welsh population, difficult to quantify but it probably is high for the average Welshman. Migration to Wales within the last 250 years has been substantial and one study I have read estimated that only 35% of the Welsh population has a Welsh surname. If that figure is correct, and I see no reason to doubt it, then yes I would say the Welsh on average have a lot of English ancestry, quite possibly +50%.

Just to add, the major population centres in Wales (Cardiff, Newport, Wrexham, Swansea, etc) are also areas that have seen most considerable in-migration over the years.

http://gov.wales/statistics-and-research/welsh-diaspora-analysis-geography-welsh-names/?lang=en

The % of Welsh surnames are probably not the right way to determine English ancestry. Ireland has also become almost totally Anglified yet they don't seem to have significant amount of recent English ancestry.

Btw, 50% is a conservative figure. This is assuming that the English are 60% Anglo Saxon, which i doubt they are.
If the Welsh people would be 50% + English then why do they show such significant differences when it comes to their Y dna?

Jon
08-30-2016, 10:36 AM
What is now Scotland has not been 100% free of Anglo-Saxons and similar since c. AD 550. The present Scotland is an amalgam of lowland Scots of Anglo-Saxon descent and highlanders and islanders of mixed Celt and Viking origin. And the lowlands have always been more heavily settled. Details for Wales follow.

I myself have west-lowland paternal roots - and I'm L21 (L513). Would this be the celtic settlers into the lowlands, or maybe even Strathclyde Britons? L513 after all seems to be quite heavy up the west coast, including the islands.

Captain Nordic
08-30-2016, 10:55 AM
I myself have west-lowland paternal roots - and I'm L21 (L513). Would this be the celtic settlers into the lowlands, or maybe even Strathclyde Britons? L513 after all seems to be quite heavy up the west coast, including the islands.

R1b-L21 is the dominant haplogroup in Scotland so that isn't really suprising :)

08-30-2016, 10:59 AM
The Schiffels paper says:



In short - there has been a lot of mixing of populations within Britain since the Anglo-Saxon land-grab. For many centuries people from the Celtic fringe have been moving (back) to the lands held by their ancestors in what is now England. Meanwhile there has been an English flow in the opposite direction.

What is now Scotland has not been 100% free of Anglo-Saxons and similar since c. AD 550. The present Scotland is an amalgam of lowland Scots of Anglo-Saxon descent and highlanders and islanders of mixed Celt and Viking origin. And the lowlands have always been more heavily settled. Details for Wales follow.

Hi Jean,
I disagree with you about lowland Scotland being of Anglo Saxon decent, "Strathclyde","Ystrad Clud" was an independent(Brythnonic) kingdom in Scotland well into the 11th Century, so this is past the time of the Anglo Saxon migrations. and collapsed more due to pressure from Vikings than the Anglo Saxons who by then were a spent force. Then being united with the Kingdom of the Scots thereafter.

Jon
08-30-2016, 11:17 AM
R1b-L21 is the dominant haplogroup in Scotland so that isn't really suprising :)

True - but still surprisingly much heavier in the west than the east, and overall not as dominant as in Ireland or Wales. So a classic celtic pattern. However it's found in all areas where Scotti, Picts and Britons would have been. I've heard speculation that the Srathclyders may have been more U152 dominant than L21. But clearly all these celtic peoples were related, under L21 mostly.

Captain Nordic
08-30-2016, 11:22 AM
True - but still surprisingly much heavier in the west than the east, and overall not as dominant as in Ireland or Wales. So a classic celtic pattern. However it's found in all areas where Scotti, Picts and Britons would have been. I've heard speculation that the Srathclyders may have been more U152 dominant than L21. But clearly all these celtic peoples were related, under L21 mostly.

It's higher in the west most likely due to Irish/Gaelic admixture.

Jon
08-30-2016, 11:31 AM
The question is would all L21 in the west be mostly due to gaelic influence, or would there be remnant L21 there from earlier times anyway?

08-30-2016, 11:44 AM
The question is would all L21 in the west be mostly due to gaelic influence, or would there be remnant L21 there from earlier times anyway?

Maybe both

Captain Nordic
08-30-2016, 11:48 AM
The question is would all L21 in the west be mostly due to gaelic influence, or would there be remnant L21 there from earlier times anyway?

Well, L21 is still the dominant lineage in other parts of Scotland as well.
Welsh, Cornish and Breton people (Brythonic Celts) also have a lot of L21:
11260

So L21 probably predates the arrival of Gaels in West Scotland although i don't know how similar Western Scottish L21 is to Irish L21.

Jon
08-30-2016, 12:13 PM
My subclade L513 is dominant in Ireland and Scotland, but with more country-specific subclades (mine seems to be more Scottish). It's not found so much in either England or Wales. This is tricky, as L513 was probably folks who came into Ireland and Scotland together, but before the Gaelic split. However they do seem to share a genetic link.

moesan
08-30-2016, 01:11 PM
The question is would all L21 in the west be mostly due to gaelic influence, or would there be remnant L21 there from earlier times anyway?

R1b-L21 is very common in Brittany and cannot be put on the account of a significant Irish imput. L21 came from N-W France into the Isles, I think, and knew there weak concurrence at first and underwent a kind of founder effect. By the way it seems L21 is not so dominant in N-Ireland half. Don't forget L21 is very dense in Wales too, still today. L21 is present in Switzerland, 6-7% or about, and seems restricted to Franco-Provençal zones ("french swiss"), it is present at about 8-9% in French Alps too, so ancient Gaulish lands. Hard to think it was Irishmen settled in numbers there...
Concerning the surveys about UK, I think they are poorly done and maybe mask an agenda.
If modern Welsh people has a good taste of English blood, I think some regions even today are 90% Welsh old fashion (Ceiredigion by instance). A global sample for Wales and even more for Scotland has NO SENSE.
Phoenotypic studies present the advantage to be more sensitive for recent ancestry than auDNA which cannot distinguish easily a lot of ancient admixtures by the way. Phoenotype studies show an evident contrast between West and East Britain and it could not be due too hazard ony: Scotland showed also differences region by region, explained by diverse historic events. Strathclude of today is a high mixture place (Pre-Celts, Bretons, Gaels, modern Irish...) but shows still a difference with Eastern Lowlands, even if relative.
And I cannot confirm the believing in a level and constant crossings process of some importance between Wales and post-Saxons England since 1500 years. The most of crossings are recent. Surely between Middle Ages and modern times there has been some English people settlements in Wales (Tudor and others) but they had been limited geographically (their traces are seen in South-Montgomeryshire by instance - Llanidloes - either in Y-HGs or in phoenotypes means). The most of the crossings results in Wales date from the 20° century I think.
Concerning second names, it's is ridiculous to consider all the Jones, Williams, Davies, Lewis, Morris and Cy as Names of English migrants. And if you are named Isaacs, Joseph, George, Anthony, Aarons, Daniels, Emmanuel or Ebenzer, there is big chances you would be or would had become a "native" Welshman.

Captain Nordic
08-30-2016, 01:21 PM
R1b-L21 is very common in Brittany and cannot be put on the account of a significant Irish imput. L21 came from N-W France into the Isles, I think, and knew there weak concurrence at first and underwent a kind of founder effect. By the way it seems L21 is not so dominant in N-Ireland half. Don't forget L21 is very dense in Wales too, still today. L21 is present in Switzerland, 6-7% or about, and seems restricted to Franco-Provençal zones ("french swiss"), it is present at about 8-9% in French Alps too, so ancient Gaulish lands. Hard to think it was Irishmen settled in numbers there...


R1b-L21 does peak in Ireland though:
11262

Western Scotland was settled by Gaels from Ireland centuries ago which is why Scotland even have their own kind of Gaelic language:
11263
I would guess this is why Jon was asking the question if L21 in Western Scotland is of Gaelic origin, not that all the L21 in Europe is Gaelic.

Yes, it's true that Welsh and Cornish people have a lot of L21. Isn't it then more likely that Bretons got their L21 from their Brythonic cousins, Welsh and Cornish people?
I'm sure you know your history better than i do ;)

Jessie
08-30-2016, 01:30 PM
The % of Welsh surnames are probably not the right way to determine English ancestry. Ireland has also become almost totally Anglified yet they don't seem to have significant amount of recent English ancestry.

Btw, 50% is a conservative figure. This is assuming that the English are 60% Anglo Saxon, which i doubt they are.
If the Welsh people would be 50% + English then why do they show such significant differences when it comes to their Y dna?

Ireland might be a bit different than Wales though. Most Irish names started much earlier and most people can trace their names to a Gaelic source even if Anglicised. There was also a lot less English incursions into Ireland than a place like Wales.

I do agree with what other posters have said here in that some of this supposed "Anglo-Saxon" ancestry is most likely just shared ancestry from earlier times. If anyone looks at the PoBI the Welsh had a large chunk of the West German component in their results.

It would be interesting to see what results the Irish would get as that would be very informative. The Irish shouldn't really have much Anglo-Saxon ancestry so I think just using people in Britain might not give an accurate indication.

rms2
08-30-2016, 01:35 PM
My subclade L513 is dominant in Ireland and Scotland . . .

Not to nitpick, but I don't think you meant "L513 is dominant in Ireland and Scotland". Probably you meant "L513 reaches its highest frequencies in Ireland and Scotland."

I could be due for a shock, I guess, but I don't think L513 is the most frequent subclade of L21 in either of those countries and so is not "dominant" in either of them.

I think a good argument could be made for DF49 as dominant in Ireland, with maybe DF21 giving it a good run for its money. I'm not sure about Scotland, but I think L1335 is pretty frequent there. Z253 is another one that seems to be pretty well represented in Ireland and Scotland.

Jessie
08-30-2016, 01:38 PM
R1b-L21 is very common in Brittany and cannot be put on the account of a significant Irish imput. L21 came from N-W France into the Isles, I think, and knew there weak concurrence at first and underwent a kind of founder effect. By the way it seems L21 is not so dominant in N-Ireland half. Don't forget L21 is very dense in Wales too, still today. L21 is present in Switzerland, 6-7% or about, and seems restricted to Franco-Provençal zones ("french swiss"), it is present at about 8-9% in French Alps too, so ancient Gaulish lands. Hard to think it was Irishmen settled in numbers there...
Concerning the surveys about UK, I think they are poorly done and maybe mask an agenda.
If modern Welsh people has a good taste of English blood, I think some regions even today are 90% Welsh old fashion (Ceiredigion by instance). A global sample for Wales and even more for Scotland has NO SENSE.
Phoenotypic studies present the advantage to be more sensitive for recent ancestry than auDNA which cannot distinguish easily a lot of ancient admixtures by the way. Phoenotype studies show an evident contrast between West and East Britain and it could not be due too hazard ony: Scotland showed also differences region by region, explained by diverse historic events. Strathclude of today is a high mixture place (Pre-Celts, Bretons, Gaels, modern Irish...) but shows still a difference with Eastern Lowlands, even if relative.
And I cannot confirm the believing in a level and constant crossings process of some importance between Wales and post-Saxons England since 1500 years. The most of crossings are recent. Surely between Middle Ages and modern times there has been some English people settlements in Wales (Tudor and others) but they had been limited geographically (their traces are seen in South-Montgomeryshire by instance - Llanidloes - either in Y-HGs or in phoenotypes means). The most of the crossings results in Wales date from the 20° century I think.
Concerning second names, it's is ridiculous to consider all the Jones, Williams, Davies, Lewis, Morris and Cy as Names of English migrants. And if you are named Isaacs, Joseph, George, Anthony, Aarons, Daniels, Emmanuel or Ebenzer, there is big chances you would be or would had become a "native" Welshman.

Most people would agree that L21 isn't "Irish" but just very heavy there. L21 is very high all over Ireland but the North has a high concentration of M222 which is a subclade under L21. I do agree that L21 would have been in Northern France before reaching the Isles. I just wish France had more dna testing as it would be beneficial to everyone.

rms2
08-30-2016, 02:35 PM
I think L21 was already well represented on both sides of the Channel long before the 5th century exodus of Britons to Armorica (Bretagne). That is one of the things that made Armorica a good place for the Britons to go. Probably they already knew people there and spoke a common language or at least one that was mutually intelligible.

Here's another thing. The Britons who went to Armorica probably were not fleeing the Anglo-Saxons, regardless of what Gildas wrote. The Britons of the exodus came from Cornwall and Wales, and the Anglo-Saxons had not made it far enough west to be a threat to them. According to Dillon and Chadwick, in their book, The Celtic Realms (if I am remembering the source correctly), the Britons of the exodus were actually fleeing the Irish.

Captain Nordic
08-30-2016, 03:31 PM
Here's another thing. The Britons who went to Armorica probably were not fleeing the Anglo-Saxons, regardless of what Gildas wrote. The Britons of the exodus came from Cornwall and Wales, and the Anglo-Saxons had not made it far enough west to be a threat to them. According to Dillon and Chadwick, in their book, The Celtic Realms (if I am remembering the source correctly), the Britons of the exodus were actually fleeing the Irish.

Wow, i did not know that! Fascinating!

Jon
08-30-2016, 04:58 PM
Not to nitpick, but I don't think you meant "L513 is dominant in Ireland and Scotland". Probably you meant "L513 reaches its highest frequencies in Ireland and Scotland."

I could be due for a shock, I guess, but I don't think L513 is the most frequent subclade of L21 in either of those countries and so is not "dominant" in either of them.

I think a good argument could be made for DF49 as dominant in Ireland, with maybe DF21 giving it a good run for its money. I'm not sure about Scotland, but I think L1335 is pretty frequent there. Z253 is another one that seems to be pretty well represented in Ireland and Scotland.

Absolutely - that's what I meant, sorry! What I find interesting about L513 though, is that unlike M222 for example, which seems to be most frequent in Ireland, with slightly lower frequencies in Scotland etc., with L513 you see almost identical frequency rates in Scotland and Ireland, but a lot less in England and Wales, which you'd expect to be higher if it was found in ancient Briton communities. That's what made me think that L513 might be more Gael-related, although it seems to be very old. Larry Walker had some excellent tables posted over on FB a while back.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-30-2016, 05:29 PM
"Concerning second names, it's is ridiculous to consider all the Jones, Williams, Davies, Lewis, Morris and Cy as Names of English migrants. "
I didn't suggest that at all.
I was pointing out that certain names considered "Welsh" are created from the non-Welsh method of adding "S" to denote "son" rather than the Welsh "Ap" which shows an anglicised influence on customs.
I think in England, Wales and the Isles of Man, according to one source (1991) Jones is the 2nd most common surname (almost 1% of the population),Williams is the 3rd, Davies is 6 and Evans is 7. There are an awful lot of people with Welsh surnames names in England. It would be interesting to know what their Y dna is. :)

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjChNPB0unOAhUEVxoKHbwZDEsQFggvMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsurnames.behindthename.com%2Ftop% 2Flists%2Fengland-wales%2F1991&usg=AFQjCNGIpeHcHanm7EKBi4YgIvS-ng9GTg

MacUalraig
08-30-2016, 06:26 PM
"Concerning second names, it's is ridiculous to consider all the Jones, Williams, Davies, Lewis, Morris and Cy as Names of English migrants. "
I didn't suggest that at all.
I was pointing out that certain names considered "Welsh" are created from the non-Welsh method of adding "S" to denote "son" rather than the Welsh "Ap" which shows an anglicised influence on customs.
I think in England, Wales and the Isles of Man, according to one source (1991) Jones is the 2nd most common surname (almost 1% of the population),Williams is the 3rd, Davies is 6 and Evans is 7. There are an awful lot of people with Welsh surnames names in England. It would be interesting to know what their Y dna is. :)

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjChNPB0unOAhUEVxoKHbwZDEsQFggvMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsurnames.behindthename.com%2Ftop% 2Flists%2Fengland-wales%2F1991&usg=AFQjCNGIpeHcHanm7EKBi4YgIvS-ng9GTg

Yes I have a Williams ggm from Staffordshire and have had some good arguments with people about whether they acquired their name in England or Wales.

avalon
08-30-2016, 06:46 PM
Yes very good point.
I've been pondering Snowdonia and the more isolated parts of Wales and whether they are representative of the rest of the Country. I suppose they have always been relatively isolated compared to elsewhere, so maybe even 1,000 years ago such places weren't entirely representative of the rest of the Country? No doubt though that this "isolation " and difference has become relatively more apparent over the last couple of hundred years or so because of the levels of migration during the industrial revolution.
Before then, even East Wales where I live was Welsh Speaking and supposedly a few older individuals within living memory could only speak welsh.

Yes, isolation is a relative term in a British context but I do believe that parts of Gwynedd, Ceredigion, Carmarthenshire, are different somewhat to the rest of Wales and the key indicator of that is the Welsh language which is still spoken as the first language by around 300,000 people (Welsh Language Board 2006). The language simply wouldn't have survived in these rural communities if there had been significant English in migration.

I also think there is now genetic evidence to support this in the PoBI project which collected samples from NW Wales (green sqaures). On the PCA, the Cornish, the Scottish and the Northern Irish samples are all closer to the English than the Welsh are.

11268

kevinduffy
08-30-2016, 06:50 PM
R1b-L21 is the dominant haplogroup in Scotland so that isn't really suprising :)

But I think its highest frequency is in the highlands.

avalon
08-30-2016, 07:09 PM
The % of Welsh surnames are probably not the right way to determine English ancestry. Ireland has also become almost totally Anglified yet they don't seem to have significant amount of recent English ancestry.

Btw, 50% is a conservative figure. This is assuming that the English are 60% Anglo Saxon, which i doubt they are.
If the Welsh people would be 50% + English then why do they show such significant differences when it comes to their Y dna?

The study you cited (Weale at al 2002) sampled two towns in North Wales, Llangefni and Abergele. These are both small towns and are in no way representative of Wales as a whole. You have to remember that there are 3.1 million people in Wales and the vast bulk of the population live in the SE and the NE of Wales. These are also the areas that have received most English migration in modern times so whatever the actual figure, there is no doubt that there is a large amount of English ancestry in the current population as a whole.

Welsh surnames are not totally reliable of course but they have been fixed since the 16th century so they will put us in the right ball park.

11269

Captain Nordic
08-30-2016, 07:34 PM
The study you cited (Weale at al 2002) sampled two towns in North Wales, Llangefni and Abergele. These are both small towns and are in no way representative of Wales as a whole. You have to remember that there are 3.1 million people in Wales and the vast bulk of the population live in the SE and the NE of Wales. These are also the areas that have received most English migration in modern times so whatever the actual figure, there is no doubt that there is a large amount of English ancestry in the current population as a whole.

Welsh surnames are not totally reliable of course but they have been fixed since the 16th century so they will put us in the right ball park.

11269

IF the Welsh do have significant amount of English ancestry, it should come mostly from the Western and Northwestern areas of England as those are the areas that tend to show the least amount of Anglo Saxon admixture and most similarities with other Celtic groups in Britain.

The Welsh Y dna and their autosomal DNA looks to Celtic for their English ancestry to have come from somewhere else imo.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-30-2016, 07:39 PM
The study you cited (Weale at al 2002) sampled two towns in North Wales, Llangefni and Abergele. These are both small towns and are in no way representative of Wales as a whole. You have to remember that there are 3.1 million people in Wales and the vast bulk of the population live in the SE and the NE of Wales. These are also the areas that have received most English migration in modern times so whatever the actual figure, there is no doubt that there is a large amount of English ancestry in the current population as a whole.

Welsh surnames are not totally reliable of course but they have been fixed since the 16th century so they will put us in the right ball park.

11269

I suppose that's what I wonder about. We look at a specific region, somewhat isolated and draw conclusions from it about what a past Country was like. The parts of Wales which are accessible now were always reasonably accessible, other than through human intervention to prevent it. My history isn't great but in Roman times there was significant settlement in certain parts. All the locals didn't hide up in the hills for a few hundred years, many became Romanised. People surely traded, travelled, formed alliances and inter-married.
I'm not suggesting there wasn't a specific genetic identity but maybe it was not quite as black and white in the past as is sometimes depicted. Am I right in thinking that in broad terms there are distinct genetic differences between North and South Wales?

rms2
08-30-2016, 08:44 PM
But I think its highest frequency is in the highlands.

I don't think it drops below about 50% anywhere in Scotland.

rms2
08-30-2016, 08:59 PM
The addition of s to create a Welsh surname was an anglicization and generally subsequent or an adjunct to the Welsh ap or ab. My own surname appears in Welsh as ap Stevyn and ap Stephen.

avalon
08-31-2016, 04:39 PM
I suppose that's what I wonder about. We look at a specific region, somewhat isolated and draw conclusions from it about what a past Country was like. The parts of Wales which are accessible now were always reasonably accessible, other than through human intervention to prevent it. My history isn't great but in Roman times there was significant settlement in certain parts. All the locals didn't hide up in the hills for a few hundred years, many became Romanised. People surely traded, travelled, formed alliances and inter-married.
I'm not suggesting there wasn't a specific genetic identity but maybe it was not quite as black and white in the past as is sometimes depicted. Am I right in thinking that in broad terms there are distinct genetic differences between North and South Wales?

Yes, you're right. History is always complex. I am probably guilty of over-simplifying it myself at times. :biggrin1:

Regarding the genetic differences between North and South Wales, these might have been formed during medieval times and the PoBI results do broadly align with the medieval kingdoms of Gwynedd and Deheubarth.

The Welsh dialect divide between North and South Wales also fits very neatly with the medieval divide and so the genetic boundary could well be the River Dovey (Afon Dyfi) at Machynlleth.

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/fb/7d/77/fb7d77b675e63d03e9b730304eb0e186.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Wales.medieval.jpg

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-31-2016, 05:14 PM
Yes, you're right. History is always complex. I am probably guilty of over-simplifying it myself at times. :biggrin1:

Regarding the genetic differences between North and South Wales, these might have been formed during medieval times and the PoBI results do broadly align with the medieval kingdoms of Gwynedd and Deheubarth.

The Welsh dialect divide between North and South Wales also fits very neatly with the medieval divide and so the genetic boundary could well be the River Dovey (Afon Dyfi) at Machynlleth.

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/fb/7d/77/fb7d77b675e63d03e9b730304eb0e186.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Wales.medieval.jpg

It would be interesting to know how diverse (or not) the ancient Welsh were, but I suppose we will have to wait for ancient dna to find out.
My gut feeling is that there may be more genetic diversity than we think amongst various groups, not just the Welsh, particularly in the more "well-travelled" regions, but we shall see. :)

avalon
08-31-2016, 07:44 PM
IF the Welsh do have significant amount of English ancestry, it should come mostly from the Western and Northwestern areas of England as those are the areas that tend to show the least amount of Anglo Saxon admixture and most similarities with other Celtic groups in Britain.

The Welsh Y dna and their autosomal DNA looks to Celtic for their English ancestry to have come from somewhere else imo.

From a lot of the genealogical research I have done in North Wales (mostly census returns) a large proportion of English migrants who arrived in the 19th and early 20th century were from Lancashire and Cheshire so yes, western English counties. Likewise in industrial South Wales where I believe a lot of English migration came from Gloucestershire and Somerset.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-31-2016, 07:56 PM
From a lot of the genealogical research I have done in North Wales (mostly census returns) a large proportion of English migrants who arrived in the 19th and early 20th century were from Lancashire and Cheshire so yes, western English counties. Likewise in industrial South Wales where I believe a lot of English migration came from Gloucestershire and Somerset.

Yes that's right, as well as Herefordshire, where some of my own ancestors came from, including my paternal line.

Captain Nordic
08-31-2016, 08:12 PM
From a lot of the genealogical research I have done in North Wales (mostly census returns) a large proportion of English migrants who arrived in the 19th and early 20th century were from Lancashire and Cheshire so yes, western English counties. Likewise in industrial South Wales where I believe a lot of English migration came from Gloucestershire and Somerset.

Ok then, so i guess it would be possible for there to be significant amount of English ancestry in the Welsh without polluting their Brythonic DNA too much ;)

moesan
08-31-2016, 08:21 PM
Most people would agree that L21 isn't "Irish" but just very heavy there. L21 is very high all over Ireland but the North has a high concentration of M222 which is a subclade under L21. I do agree that L21 would have been in Northern France before reaching the Isles. I just wish France had more dna testing as it would be beneficial to everyone.

Sure it would be nice. But I think the concentration of R-L21 is for the most in Brittany and immediate periphery (Western Normandy by the way Cotentin and Avranchin: Western Normandy, has been under Breton control some time, and historians think the Bretons diaspora in the 6 to 8th Cy reached also Normandy and Western Picardy shores, but in weak density). I doubt new results could change it too much; but France surely is not without L21 as Alps confirm.
In Spain Basque country, sommeones proposed %s of 16-18% for L21 but samples were to short: more data gives about 4% 21; the most are in N-Iberia. More L21 can be found in the Netherlands and Western Norway than in the most of Europe other lands.
Concerning L21 in Ireland I'll try to foind more precise data, IF I CAN!

moesan
08-31-2016, 08:24 PM
Ok then, so i guess it would be possible for there to be significant amount of English ancestry in the Welsh without polluting their Brythonic DNA too much ;)

Very possible: I think Black Country and even Devon were less Anglo than the England mean, spite the current dogma of a level England (I speak about old England, not the second 20th Cy one)

moesan
08-31-2016, 08:50 PM
The study you cited (Weale at al 2002) sampled two towns in North Wales, Llangefni and Abergele. These are both small towns and are in no way representative of Wales as a whole. You have to remember that there are 3.1 million people in Wales and the vast bulk of the population live in the SE and the NE of Wales. These are also the areas that have received most English migration in modern times so whatever the actual figure, there is no doubt that there is a large amount of English ancestry in the current population as a whole.

Welsh surnames are not totally reliable of course but they have been fixed since the 16th century so they will put us in the right ball park.

11269

NO, all welsh surnames has not been fixed since the 16 th. Places remained where the ancient patronymic system (mab/map >> ab/ap >> b/p before personal name) was still in use until the 17th Cy, sometimes until 18th and 19th Cy (these last cases very exceptional). But already since the 17th perhaps before, the celtic personal names had been replaced in Wales by anglo-norman and biblic ones, spite the Welsh origin of the bearers. At the contrary Western English counties show certain %s of celtic Welsh surnames, more or less modified, sometimes with funny results.
Btw this could explain some slight proximity of Western English people to Welsh people: ancient Britton substratum + Weslh immigration.
It's sure Cornish anthroponymy was more interesting than the Welsh one, before tge replacement in Cornwall (exode, tourism)

avalon
08-31-2016, 09:18 PM
NO, all welsh surnames has not been fixed since the 16 th. Places remained where the ancient patronymic system (mab/map >> ab/ap >> b/p before personal name) was still in use until the 17th Cy, sometimes until 18th and 19th Cy (these last cases very exceptional). But already since the 17th perhaps before, the celtic personal names had been replaced in Wales by anglo-norman and biblic ones, spite the Welsh origin of the bearers. At the contrary Western English counties show certain %s of celtic Welsh surnames, more or less modified, sometimes with funny results.
Btw this could explain some slight proximity of Western English people to Welsh people: ancient Britton substratum + Weslh immigration.
It's sure Cornish anthroponymy was more interesting than the Welsh one, before tge replacement in Cornwall (exode, tourism)

I didn't mean that ALL Welsh names have been fixed since the 16th century, I am well aware that the patronymic naming system continued in NW Wales until later than that. I just meant that the 16th century was when fixing surnames started.

I agree with the rest of your analysis but are you saying that the adoption of patronimic type names, ending in 's' in the English West Country (eg, Rogers, Peters, etc) was down to Welsh immigrants?

Also, I am not sure what you meant by Cornish anthroponomy being more interesting than Welsh one?

avalon
08-31-2016, 09:25 PM
Ok then, so i guess it would be possible for there to be significant amount of English ancestry in the Welsh without polluting their Brythonic DNA too much ;)

Possibly but at the same time any English people that settled in Wales from Western English counties during the last few hundred years would still have had more Anglo-Saxon DNA than the people already living in Wales.

Tomenable
08-31-2016, 09:46 PM
So if the Welsh really do have 30% anglo saxon ancestry and the English only 38% then why are they (the Welsh) almost indistinguishable from Iron age Brythonic Celtic samples while the English are clearly different?
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/images/ncomms10326-f3.jpg

I also like this map (from Martiniano et al. 2016):

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/full/ncomms10326.html

https://s22.postimg.io/59j4p7ffl/Celtic.png

https://s22.postimg.io/59j4p7ffl/Celtic.png

Tomenable
08-31-2016, 09:53 PM
Re; the link I posted above, if the estimated population of Wales was in the region of 500,000 up to the end of the 18th Century and rose to well over 2,000,000 by the 20th Century, the statistics probably speak for themselves.

This increase is mostly due to natural growth. England's population increased even more than that of Wales or Scotland during the same period. As a matter of fact, today Scotland has only 10% of England's population, but in the 1600s-1700s it had over 20% up to 25% of England's population. Proportions changed.

Tomenable
08-31-2016, 10:06 PM
I have the following data for the mid-18th century:

Population of England in year 1751 - ca. 6,336,000 (includes Wales and Cornwall)

Population of Scotland in year 1755 - ca. 1,265,000

Population of Ireland in year 1760 - ca. 3,527,000

Assuming Wales had ca. 500,000 in 1751, this leaves ca. 5,836,000 for England.

===============

So in the mid-18th century there was the following demographic situation:

England (with Cornwall) - 5,836,000
Ireland+Scotland+Wales - 5,292,000

Compare to modern times. You will see that English numbers increased more.

Captain Nordic
08-31-2016, 10:10 PM
Possibly but at the same time any English people that settled in Wales from Western English counties during the last few hundred years would still have had more Anglo-Saxon DNA than the people already living in Wales.

Yes of course. But people from the Western and NW areas of England are not part of the red "Anglo Saxon cluster" like the rest of the country:
http://i100.independent.co.uk/image/15767-rpoglr.JPG

For example, the small genetic cluster in the West riding of Yorkshire coincides with the former small Celtic kingdom of Elmet.

That PCA i posted earlier which compared Iron age/Roman-era samples, one Anglo Saxon merged with Irish, Scottish, Welsh, English and Dutch genomes, seem to show that Northern and NW English have more in common with the Welsh than with the Anglo Saxon sample.

GoldenHind
08-31-2016, 11:22 PM
Very possible: I think Black Country and even Devon were less Anglo than the England mean, spite the current dogma of a level England (I speak about old England, not the second 20th Cy one)

If you mean the standard definition of the Black Country, which is the area now called the West Midlands and part of Staffordshire, I am not so certain about that. Two places in the area are called Wednesbury and Wednesfield, both of which derive from the Anglo-Saxon god Woden (Odin or Wotan). Both must have been established before the Anglo-Saxon conversion to Christianity.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-01-2016, 05:30 AM
If you mean the standard definition of the Black Country, which is the area now called the West Midlands and part of Staffordshire, I am not so certain about that. Two places in the area are called Wednesbury and Wednesfield, both of which derive from the Anglo-Saxon god Woden (Odin or Wotan). Both must have been established before the Anglo-Saxon conversion to Christianity.

These areas would have been in the Anglo/Saxon Kingdoms of Mercia or Wessex wouldn't they? It seems the closer you get to Wales though, the more "mixed" the population seems to be compared to the East of England. Maybe it's possible though that the Danelaw also had an influence in the East?

moesan
09-01-2016, 04:08 PM
If you mean the standard definition of the Black Country, which is the area now called the West Midlands and part of Staffordshire, I am not so certain about that. Two places in the area are called Wednesbury and Wednesfield, both of which derive from the Anglo-Saxon god Woden (Odin or Wotan). Both must have been established before the Anglo-Saxon conversion to Christianity.

It's not question to deny Anglo-Saxon presence in these regions, it would be ridiculous; it's question to minimize there the real demic imput of these Anglo-Saxons or generally Germanic people as a whole compared to other regions of England and even Scotland (I recall Scotland is not level at all in this aspect).
And here we have ancient mixture after A-Sx occupation plus new immigrations, this time from Wales to industrial England.

avalon
09-02-2016, 08:33 AM
Yes of course. But people from the Western and NW areas of England are not part of the red "Anglo Saxon cluster" like the rest of the country:

For example, the small genetic cluster in the West riding of Yorkshire coincides with the former small Celtic kingdom of Elmet.

That PCA i posted earlier which compared Iron age/Roman-era samples, one Anglo Saxon merged with Irish, Scottish, Welsh, English and Dutch genomes, seem to show that Northern and NW English have more in common with the Welsh than with the Anglo Saxon sample.

Well actually though, if you look at the PCA charts provided by the PoBI project (Leslie et al 2015) given in the supplementary information http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v519/n7543/full/nature14230.html you will see that the West Yorkshire (blue triangles) cluster and the clusters from Northumbria and Cumbria (orange circles) are indeed very close to the main red English cluster. In fact, looking at those PCAs - Cornwall, Devon, the Welsh Borders, West Yorkshire, Cumbria, Northumbria, these all occupy a similar space on the PCA which is very close to the red English cluster but clearly separate from the North Wales cluster (green squares).

So it looks to me as though there is a difference between the results of Leslie et al 2015 and Martiniano et 2016 and I suspect this comes down to the modern dataset that is used. As I have always said, when using DNA from modern samples it does matter who you sample and where, particularly in the case of Wales. I do believe that if you take the average of the 3.1 million people living in Wales today then English ancestry is going to be significant. By contrast, for some Welsh people, in certain communities, in certain parts of Wales, then English ancestry is likely very low.

11316

avalon
09-02-2016, 09:40 AM
Just to add, it looks as though the modern Welsh dataset used by the paper "Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons" is taken from this study from 2007. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v447/n7145/full/nature05911.html


Individuals included in the study were living within England, Scotland and Wales ('Great Britain') and the vast majority had self-identified themselves as white Europeans (153 individuals with non-Caucasian ancestry were excluded from final analysis—see below). The seven conditions selected for study are all common familial diseases of major public health importance both in the UK and globally4, and for which suitable nationally representative sample sets were available. The control individuals came from two sources: 1,500 individuals from the 1958 British Birth Cohort (58C) and 1,500 individuals selected from blood donors recruited as part of this project (UK Blood Services (UKBS) controls).

So, it could be that this dataset is a better representation of Wales as a whole, whereas the PoBI project specifically took rural samples from NW and SW Wales and had strict criteria regarding 4 grandparents.

Captain Nordic
09-02-2016, 12:28 PM
Well actually though, if you look at the PCA charts provided by the PoBI project (Leslie et al 2015) given in the supplementary information http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v519/n7543/full/nature14230.html you will see that the West Yorkshire (blue triangles) cluster and the clusters from Northumbria and Cumbria (orange circles) are indeed very close to the main red English cluster. In fact, looking at those PCAs - Cornwall, Devon, the Welsh Borders, West Yorkshire, Cumbria, Northumbria, these all occupy a similar space on the PCA which is very close to the red English cluster but clearly separate from the North Wales cluster (green squares).

So it looks to me as though there is a difference between the results of Leslie et al 2015 and Martiniano et 2016 and I suspect this comes down to the modern dataset that is used. As I have always said, when using DNA from modern samples it does matter who you sample and where, particularly in the case of Wales. I do believe that if you take the average of the 3.1 million people living in Wales today then English ancestry is going to be significant. By contrast, for some Welsh people, in certain communities, in certain parts of Wales, then English ancestry is likely very low.

11316

Probably because the differences in NW europeans in general is very miniscule. On a global scale, Brits would all be extremely close to one another.
In general though, looking at the Y DNA haplogroups and their respective drifts towards mainland Europe, the English are significantly more shifted towards the Dutch, Germans and Danish people.

People from the western and NW parts of England clearly have a different haplotype distribution that matches the Welsh and the Cornish more closely than with the more Germanic east:
11320

When ancient samples were studied and compared to modern British & Irish populations, these Western and NW English came up as significantly closer to the ancient Iron age/Roman era-samples than to the Anglo saxon one. Looking at their haplogroups, i think that makes sense.

So if Welsh people had so much English ancestry, why do you guys hate them so much (Joking) ? :P
Well, some of you do at least...
https://nativebriton.wordpress.com/2009/09/01/the-anglo-saxons/

J Man
09-02-2016, 06:15 PM
Admixture obviously.

moesan
09-02-2016, 06:20 PM
Even if the modern Welsh pop is surely more English influenced, it is not identical to the typical Englsih pop. That said, concerning History, regional rural samples had their importance.
+ a sample selected on genetically inherited diseases cannot be an innocent sample...

Captain Nordic
09-02-2016, 07:00 PM
Admixture obviously.


The problem here is:
1. Welsh Y DNA does not show any signs of any massive intrusions of Germanic tribes like the English Y DNA does yet supposedly the English are only 38% Anglo Saxon and the Welsh are 30%, a pretty small difference.
2. Unlike the English, who are significantly genetically drifted towards N Germans, Dutch and Danish people due to Anglo Saxons, the Welsh DNA is almost indistinguishable from Iron age/Roman-era Britons. A 30% Anglo Saxon contribution would not generate such a result.
3. Let's just not forget that Anglo Saxons never lived or conquered any region of Wales. So this Anglo saxon ancestry would have to be recent English ancestry.
4. I really doubt that the average Welsh person is 50% + (Remember, this is a conservative figure) English. Think about it. This would have to mean that the average Welsh person has one English father and one Welsh mother vice versa!

Isn't it more likely that most of the "Anglo saxon ancestry" in Wales (and Scotland for that matter) is just shared ancient or recent ancestry with other NW europeans?
I agree with rms2 conclusion:

What I got out of those articles is that the eastern English are more like the modern Dutch and Danes than the Welsh and Scots are, but that the Welsh and Scots are somewhat like the modern Dutch and Danes. Past studies have shown that northern Europeans pretty closely resemble one another autosomally and have to be teased apart for their differences. I don't think this means that the Welsh and Scots are literally "30% Anglo-Saxon".

avalon
09-02-2016, 07:30 PM
Probably because the differences in NW europeans in general is very miniscule. On a global scale, Brits would all be extremely close to one another.
In general though, looking at the Y DNA haplogroups and their respective drifts towards mainland Europe, the English are significantly more shifted towards the Dutch, Germans and Danish people.

No disagreement there.


When ancient samples were studied and compared to modern British & Irish populations, these Western and NW English came up as significantly closer to the ancient Iron age/Roman era-samples than to the Anglo saxon one. Looking at their haplogroups, i think that makes sense.

Yes this PCA that compares modern Britons to ancient ones does make historic sense. The East Anglians should be closest to the Anglo-Saxon whereas populations in the west and north west of England are likely to be intermediary somewhere between the Welsh and the East Anglians due to higher Celtic ancestry because by the time the Anglo-Saxons reached western England they were more admixed with the native Celts than when they arrived in the east.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2016, 08:08 PM
No disagreement there.



Yes this PCA that compares modern Britons to ancient ones does make historic sense. The East Anglians should be closest to the Anglo-Saxon whereas populations in the west and north west of England are likely to be intermediary somewhere between the Welsh and the East Anglians due to higher Celtic ancestry because by the time the Anglo-Saxons reached western England they were more admixed with the native Celts than when they arrived in the east.

I think you are right, places like Herefordshire were Anglo/Welsh for a long time and still are to a certain extent. One of my ancestors almost certainly arrived in the East of England at some point and one of his descendants ended up on the border with Wales, possibly many generations later.

"Prior to the arrival of the West Saxons, the region roughly corresponding to modern Herefordshire lay under the control of earlier Welsh kingdoms, principally the minor kingdom of Ergyng. Welsh origins in Herefordshire are evident in the survival of the Welsh language in parts of the county until the 19th Century, the survival of many Welsh place names and the historic Welsh commote of Archenfield.[1]

Archenfield was still Welsh enough in the time of Elizabeth for the bishop of Hereford to be made responsible together with the four Welsh bishops for the translation of the Bible and the Book of Common Prayer into Welsh. Welsh was still commonly spoken here in the first half of the nineteenth century, and we are told that churchwardens’ notices were put up in both Welsh and English until about 1860.[2]
Welsh was spoken by individuals until comparatively recently.

avalon
09-02-2016, 08:40 PM
The problem here is:
1. Welsh Y DNA does not show any signs of any massive intrusions of Germanic tribes like the English Y DNA does yet supposedly the English are only 38% Anglo Saxon and the Welsh are 30%, a pretty small difference.

The problem is we actually have very few Y-DNA genetic studies of Wales. Those that we do have to my knowledge have only sampled a few towns; Llangefni, Abergele, Haverfordwest and Llanidloes. You have to understand that these are all small towns and they are not representative of the whole population of Wales. The big urban areas such as Cardiff, Newport, Swansea, Wrexham, the Valleys, have never been sampled in a y-dna study and this is where the vast majority of the population live.

By the way Llanidloes which was sampled by Capelli et al 2003 did show higher levels of Hg I and its y-dna profile was actually more like the English towns than the Welsh towns in that study so Llanidloes is a good example of a Welsh town that probably has quite a bit of English ancestry. And there are plenty of others...

And we know from historical sources that there was a settlement of people in Llanidloes from Derbyshire in the 1580s. http://welshjournals.llgc.org.uk/browse/viewpage/llgc-id:1264487/llgc-id:1272050/llgc-id:1272167/get650


2. Unlike the English, who are significantly genetically drifted towards N Germans, Dutch and Danish people due to Anglo Saxons, the Welsh DNA is almost indistinguishable from Iron age/Roman-era Britons. A 30% Anglo Saxon contribution would not generate such a result.

I think it does depend on the modern sample. All we know about the 30% figure is that it is based on a sample size of 10. I still think the figure of 30% is feasible if we look at the modern population as a whole, which isn't just a reflection of 19th century migration to Wales but also plenty of 20th century movement of people to Wales from England.


3. Let's just not forget that Anglo Saxons never lived or conquered any region of Wales. So this Anglo saxon ancestry would have to be recent English ancestry.

Most English ancestry in Wales is probably from modern times but some would have arrived in medieval times following the Anglo-Norman conquest of Wales and in Tudor times.


4. I really doubt that the average Welsh person is 50% + (Remember, this is a conservative figure) English. Think about it. This would have to mean that the average Welsh person has one English father and one Welsh mother vice versa!

Well, I think you might be surprised:biggrin1: That most Welsh of Welsh singers Tom Jones is actually 75% English!

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/census-reveals-tom-jones-three-quarters-2099431

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2016, 09:05 PM
I think the interesting thing here is the relatively low percentage of Anglo/Saxon (or Germanic) amongst the English, it seems to be in the minority so what is the rest? :)
I'm a bit unsure of terms like "British" or whatever in relation to dna. What is "British" dna? - it's all the result of successive migrations from elsewhere. Everyone came from somewhere else.
Do you maybe stop being British, Welsh or whatever if your Y dna has only been in that Country for less than 500 years, or 200 years, or a 1,000 years? Is there a cut-off point? :)

Captain Nordic
09-03-2016, 10:51 AM
The problem is we actually have very few Y-DNA genetic studies of Wales. Those that we do have to my knowledge have only sampled a few towns; Llangefni, Abergele, Haverfordwest and Llanidloes. You have to understand that these are all small towns and they are not representative of the whole population of Wales. The big urban areas such as Cardiff, Newport, Swansea, Wrexham, the Valleys, have never been sampled in a y-dna study and this is where the vast majority of the population live.

By the way Llanidloes which was sampled by Capelli et al 2003 did show higher levels of Hg I and its y-dna profile was actually more like the English towns than the Welsh towns in that study so Llanidloes is a good example of a Welsh town that probably has quite a bit of English ancestry. And there are plenty of others...

And we know from historical sources that there was a settlement of people in Llanidloes from Derbyshire in the 1580s. http://welshjournals.llgc.org.uk/browse/viewpage/llgc-id:1264487/llgc-id:1272050/llgc-id:1272167/get650
Did Maciamo only sample the small villages of Wales? I would suspect not as he made an entire map of the Y dna distribution in Wales, not just patches of it.

I do realize that we need to sample more areas in Wales though just to be sure.
Btw, only 15% of English men belong to hg I1 which isn't very different from Wales where the number is 10%.






I think it does depend on the modern sample. All we know about the 30% figure is that it is based on a sample size of 10. I still think the figure of 30% is feasible if we look at the modern population as a whole, which isn't just a reflection of 19th century migration to Wales but also plenty of 20th century movement of people to Wales from England.
I'm not denying that English ancestry in Wales exist and is significant in many places but i do not see it feasible that exists in such a large extent, really.





Most English ancestry in Wales is probably from modern times but some would have arrived in medieval times following the Anglo-Norman conquest of Wales and in Tudor times.
Yeah, i know about the Anglo-Norman conquest of Wales but just like in other parts of Britain, the Normans were a small numbered people and just a ruling elite so i didn't think much of it.




Well, I think you might be surprised:biggrin1: That most Welsh of Welsh singers Tom Jones is actually 75% English!

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/census-reveals-tom-jones-three-quarters-2099431

Really? :bounce:

Seriously though, it even says on wiki that three of his grandparents were English:

Jones was born Thomas John Woodward,[5] at 57 Kingsland Terrace, Treforest, Pontypridd, in Glamorgan, South Wales.[6][7][8] His parents were Thomas Woodward (31 March 1910 – 5 October 1981), a coal miner, and Freda Jones (30 December 1914 – 7 February 2003).[9] Three of his grandparents were of English origin.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-03-2016, 12:49 PM
Thing is, if you are born in Wales, you soak "Welshness" up through the ground and breath it in the air. That's why we are all poets and singers. ;)

rms2
09-03-2016, 01:02 PM
Here's a map created by Dr. Andy Grierson based on his fieldwork in Wales as described beginning at about 35:30 in the YouTube video posted below. In it one can see that R1b-U106, most common in Friesland, and pretty common in England, drops precipitously once one crosses the border from England into Wales, and R1b-L21, most common in the Celtic Fringe countries and in France, increases.

11347


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzgP_jDByh0

avalon
09-03-2016, 05:47 PM
Did Maciamo only sample the small villages of Wales? I would suspect not as he made an entire map of the Y dna distribution in Wales, not just patches of it.

I do realize that we need to sample more areas in Wales though just to be sure.
Btw, only 15% of English men belong to hg I1 which isn't very different from Wales where the number is 10%.

I'm not denying that English ancestry in Wales exist and is significant in many places but i do not see it feasible that exists in such a large extent, really.

I doubt that Maciamo has done any DNA sampling of Wales at all. As it says on Eupedia, his Y-DNA maps are produced using data from previously published scientific papers and from ftdna projects. I have seen these papers (Capelli et al, Weale et al, Busby et al, etc) and as I said before the only Welsh towns I have seen sampled in Y-DNA scientific papers were Llanidloes, Haverfordwest, Llangefni and Abergele. You cannot assume these are representative of the entire Welsh population or the average Welshman in 2016.

The noteworthy point about Llanidloes wasn't so much HG I, rather the much lower R1b of 66% compared to Llangefni's 89% and the fact that the overall Y-DNA profile of Llandidloes was similar to English towns not to Welsh towns. Again, history tells us about the English settlers in Llanidloes in Tudor times.

Regarding English ancestry in the modern Welsh population, the key thing to understand is demography. The majority of the modern population (58%) live in SE Wales and to my knowledge this area has never been sampled in a scientific study. 19th century migration to this area was substantial, but in looking at the modern population we also have to factor in substantial 20th century migration as well to all parts of Wales. Here's a stat that might surprise you - in the 2001 Wales census, 20% of the people living in Wales (590,000 people) were born in England, which shows just how mobile the modern British population is. I think if we were to just look at 20th century migration of people to Wales from England figures would be high.

Modern Brits are generally very mixed and forgetting about Wales for a minute there are literally millions of English people with recent ancestry from Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

Source ONS. http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/bulletins/2011censuskeystatisticsforwales/2012-12-11#usual-residents-born-outside-the-uk
http://www.lastmanstands.com/files/u10/Wales_-_Indexed_with_population.jpg

GoldenHind
09-03-2016, 09:36 PM
I believe BritainsDNA did a large survey of YDNA in Wales within the last few years. Unfortunately I don't think they ever published the full results.

avalon
09-04-2016, 07:22 AM
Here's a map created by Dr. Andy Grierson based on his fieldwork in Wales as described beginning at about 35:30 in the YouTube video posted below. In it one can see that R1b-U106, most common in Friesland, and pretty common in England, drops precipitously once one crosses the border from England into Wales, and R1b-L21, most common in the Celtic Fringe countries and in France, increases.

11347


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzgP_jDByh0

I believe that Grierson's fieldwork is part of the ongoing University of Sheffield investigation into E-V13 in North Wales. I wish they would publish something, that has been underway for years! :)

One point I would make is that Grierson (like most genetic surveys) is sampling Y-DNA on the basis that the participant has a paternal grandfather born in Wales, so whilst this is clearly very useful it is probably not fully representative of the modern Welsh population because it is filtering out a lot of 20th century English migration to Wales (of which there is plenty, as the census returns indicate) by excluding Welsh men whose paternal grandfather was not born in Wales.

Poor old Tom Jones wouldn't qualify for a y-dna study on this basis. :biggrin1:

rms2
09-05-2016, 09:18 PM
I believe that Grierson's fieldwork is part of the ongoing University of Sheffield investigation into E-V13 in North Wales. I wish they would publish something, that has been underway for years! :)

One point I would make is that Grierson (like most genetic surveys) is sampling Y-DNA on the basis that the participant has a paternal grandfather born in Wales, so whilst this is clearly very useful it is probably not fully representative of the modern Welsh population because it is filtering out a lot of 20th century English migration to Wales (of which there is plenty, as the census returns indicate) by excluding Welsh men whose paternal grandfather was not born in Wales.

Poor old Tom Jones wouldn't qualify for a y-dna study on this basis. :biggrin1:

No doubt, but I think Andy was interested in deep ancestry (well, at least back to the Anglo-Saxon period) rather than in the composition of the modern Welsh population, including relatively recent English and other arrivals.

fridurich
09-06-2016, 04:50 AM
Well actually though, if you look at the PCA charts provided by the PoBI project (Leslie et al 2015) given in the supplementary information http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v519/n7543/full/nature14230.html you will see that the West Yorkshire (blue triangles) cluster and the clusters from Northumbria and Cumbria (orange circles) are indeed very close to the main red English cluster. In fact, looking at those PCAs - Cornwall, Devon, the Welsh Borders, West Yorkshire, Cumbria, Northumbria, these all occupy a similar space on the PCA which is very close to the red English cluster but clearly separate from the North Wales cluster (green squares).

So it looks to me as though there is a difference between the results of Leslie et al 2015 and Martiniano et 2016 and I suspect this comes down to the modern dataset that is used. As I have always said, when using DNA from modern samples it does matter who you sample and where, particularly in the case of Wales. I do believe that if you take the average of the 3.1 million people living in Wales today then English ancestry is going to be significant. By contrast, for some Welsh people, in certain communities, in certain parts of Wales, then English ancestry is likely very low.

11316

That is an interesting chart Avalon, but where are the white triangles on it that represent Cumbria? I don't see them. Also on the POBI chart here, http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/02/a-genetic-map-of-british-population.html Northumbria seems further removed from the red (Anglo-Saxon?) squares than what your chart above shows. On the chart I reference here, some of the orange circles representing Northumbria are in the midst of some of the northern most red squares, but there are quite a number that are some distance from the red squares.

Why is there a difference in the two charts, is it because the two are showing different K levels of resolution, or in one chart they don't have the prerequisite of the 4 grandparents being born in the area? I was unable to view the images on the supplementary link you give without them being small.

Also, do the red squares represent almost purely Anglo-Saxon ancestry, or is there a significant amount of the Celtic heritage in them?

Captain Nordic
09-06-2016, 08:06 AM
Also, do the red squares represent almost purely Anglo-Saxon ancestry, or is there a significant amount of the Celtic heritage in them?
They're admixed with Celts of course, but less so than other parts of Britain.

avalon
09-06-2016, 07:00 PM
That is an interesting chart Avalon, but where are the white triangles on it that represent Cumbria? I don't see them. Also on the POBI chart here, http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/02/a-genetic-map-of-british-population.html Northumbria seems further removed from the red (Anglo-Saxon?) squares than what your chart above shows. On the chart I reference here, some of the orange circles representing Northumbria are in the midst of some of the northern most red squares, but there are quite a number that are some distance from the red squares.

Why is there a difference in the two charts, is it because the two are showing different K levels of resolution, or in one chart they don't have the prerequisite of the 4 grandparents being born in the area? I was unable to view the images on the supplementary link you give without them being small.

Also, do the red squares represent almost purely Anglo-Saxon ancestry, or is there a significant amount of the Celtic heritage in them?

Hi fridurich,

Have you downloaded the supplementary information at the link I posted? It is a 45 page pdf that gives a lot of detail about the PoBI project with numerous PCA charts. You should be able to zoom in to see clusters more clearly.http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v519/n7543/full/nature14230.html#/supplementary-information

The white triangles of Cumbria split off at K=15 and along with Northumbria, they form a general cluster with Southern Scotland and Northern Ireland. Geographically and historically this would make sense.

Regarding the red English cluster, my own view is that the English are still predominantly Celtic and that Anglo-Saxon DNA is perhaps 20-45%, possibly rising to its highest level amongst rural people in places like East Anglia, but even there 45% might be too high. We also have to factor in Roman DNA plus Norman DNA plus all the other various people that have arrived in Britain during the last 1000 years.

fridurich
09-08-2016, 03:55 AM
Hi fridurich,

Have you downloaded the supplementary information at the link I posted? It is a 45 page pdf that gives a lot of detail about the PoBI project with numerous PCA charts. You should be able to zoom in to see clusters more clearly.http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v519/n7543/full/nature14230.html#/supplementary-information

The white triangles of Cumbria split off at K=15 and along with Northumbria, they form a general cluster with Southern Scotland and Northern Ireland. Geographically and historically this would make sense.

Regarding the red English cluster, my own view is that the English are still predominantly Celtic and that Anglo-Saxon DNA is perhaps 20-45%, possibly rising to its highest level amongst rural people in places like East Anglia, but even there 45% might be too high. We also have to factor in Roman DNA plus Norman DNA plus all the other various people that have arrived in Britain during the last 1000 years.

Hi Avalon,

Thanks. Yes, I downloaded the PDF. I didn't notice it before.

If I'm interpreting the supplementary PCA charts right, it looks like at the higher levels of K, that the Northumbria symbols and the white triangles of Cumbria, for the most part, are about where the red squares are. However, there are so many different symbols and colors at the highest level of K, that the part of the graphic with the red squares has so many different symbols of different colors so intertwined in it, it sort of looks like a compact jumbled up mess.

The yellow circles representing S. Scotland/N. Ireland appear to be further from the red squares than Cumbria or Northumbria are from them, although many of the yellow circles appear to within the area of the red squares also. So, at the highest level of K, there seems to be more of a distinction between S. Scotland/N. Ireland and the red squares than the difference between Cumbria and Northumbria and the red ones. This makes sense to me and is what I would expect.

Seems like in the original POBI PCA charts they showed more difference between Cumbria/Northumbria and the red squares. I wonder what is causing the supplementary charts to show Cumbria/Northumbria to be closer to them? So, I guess the supplementary PCA charts are more accurate?

At the lower levels of K, Northumbria/Cumbria (orange circles) appears more distinct from the red squares. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought at higher levels of K, more distinctiveness would be shown between groups. However, with Cumbria and Northumbria, they appear to get more like the red squares the higher the level of K.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-08-2016, 07:00 AM
Any thoughts about what makes the "Welsh Borders" cluster distinctive is it just a blend of A/S and Welsh?
I have seen claims in relation to my name (Hywel, Howell(s) that it has links to Brittany and that some of the "British" migrants to Brittany returned to this area, but I don't know if there is any truth in it. I'm not suggesting my U106 came from Brittany, just referring to name usage, but could there be a dna link to Brittany in the Borders? It's not that common in Wales. Having said that I've also read of possible Irish and A/S origins.
"The Old Breton name Huwel or Howael, introduced direct from Brittany to the Welsh - English border counties, may in some instances have given rise to the surname."

Read more: http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Howells#ixzz4Je3nYXFL

avalon
09-09-2016, 09:11 AM
Hi Avalon,

Thanks. Yes, I downloaded the PDF. I didn't notice it before.

If I'm interpreting the supplementary PCA charts right, it looks like at the higher levels of K, that the Northumbria symbols and the white triangles of Cumbria, for the most part, are about where the red squares are. However, there are so many different symbols and colors at the highest level of K, that the part of the graphic with the red squares has so many different symbols of different colors so intertwined in it, it sort of looks like a compact jumbled up mess.

The yellow circles representing S. Scotland/N. Ireland appear to be further from the red squares than Cumbria or Northumbria are from them, although many of the yellow circles appear to within the area of the red squares also. So, at the highest level of K, there seems to be more of a distinction between S. Scotland/N. Ireland and the red squares than the difference between Cumbria and Northumbria and the red ones. This makes sense to me and is what I would expect.

Seems like in the original POBI PCA charts they showed more difference between Cumbria/Northumbria and the red squares. I wonder what is causing the supplementary charts to show Cumbria/Northumbria to be closer to them? So, I guess the supplementary PCA charts are more accurate?

At the lower levels of K, Northumbria/Cumbria (orange circles) appears more distinct from the red squares. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought at higher levels of K, more distinctiveness would be shown between groups. However, with Cumbria and Northumbria, they appear to get more like the red squares the higher the level of K.

I think when the PCA splits the UK into 25 clusters it is a bit of a jumbled mess and what this really shows is that generally speaking modern Brits are genetically very similar to each other. Using the red English cluster as a baseline, the most removed are the Orkney Islands, Welsh, Scottish Highlands and Northern Irish clusters which is exactly what we should expect from history.

I think basically that Northumbria/Cumbria are closer to English cluster than Scotland/N Ireland clusters are due to higher levels of Anglo-Saxon/Germanic ancestry.

avalon
09-09-2016, 10:08 AM
Any thoughts about what makes the "Welsh Borders" cluster distinctive is it just a blend of A/S and Welsh?
I have seen claims in relation to my name (Hywel, Howell(s) that it has links to Brittany and that some of the "British" migrants to Brittany returned to this area, but I don't know if there is any truth in it. I'm not suggesting my U106 came from Brittany, just referring to name usage, but could there be a dna link to Brittany in the Borders? It's not that common in Wales. Having said that I've also read of possible Irish and A/S origins.
"The Old Breton name Huwel or Howael, introduced direct from Brittany to the Welsh - English border counties, may in some instances have given rise to the surname."

Read more: http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Howells#ixzz4Je3nYXFL

Yes, I agree that the Welsh Borders is probably an Anglo-Saxon/Celtic blend, a sort of intermediary cluster between the Eastern English and the West Welsh. Added to that though we should factor in some Norman ancestry in the "Welsh March" as they were all over the border country like a rash in the middle ages. I don't know of any Brittany connection but you never know!
http://www.castlewales.com/march.html

As for U106, it has been identified in Roman era York so some of it clearly pre-dates the Anglo-Saxons.

rms2
09-09-2016, 11:13 AM
. . .

As for U106, it has been identified in Roman era York so some of it clearly pre-dates the Anglo-Saxons.

Those U106+ individuals whose skeletons were recovered from Roman York predate the Anglo-Saxons, but it isn't likely they have any modern descendants. They did not predate the Anglo-Saxons by much, and there is no evidence they represent any sort of U106 pre-Anglo-Saxon settlement in Britain of enough substance to have had a genetic impact.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-09-2016, 12:59 PM
Yes, I agree that the Welsh Borders is probably an Anglo-Saxon/Celtic blend, a sort of intermediary cluster between the Eastern English and the West Welsh. Added to that though we should factor in some Norman ancestry in the "Welsh March" as they were all over the border country like a rash in the middle ages. I don't know of any Brittany connection but you never know!
http://www.castlewales.com/march.html

As for U106, it has been identified in Roman era York so some of it clearly pre-dates the Anglo-Saxons.

As I'm doing further testing, it will be interesting to see what geographical matches may come up, particularly in Brittany. :)
I believe my Z326 formed about 500 BC so I would think there is a high probability of it being related to the A/S migration.

Caratacus
09-11-2016, 10:34 AM
I think the interesting thing here is the relatively low percentage of Anglo/Saxon (or Germanic) amongst the English, it seems to be in the minority so what is the rest? :)Celtic Briton presumably - the subjects of Boudicca et al. It seems the big confounding factor in this subject is that the lowland Britons already had quite a lot of 'Germanic' admixture from the Bronze Age and possibly earlier times. I wonder if even before the Romans came the lowland Britons thought of the Welsh and Scots as being a bit different to themselves and a bit 'wild'?


I'm a bit unsure of terms like "British" or whatever in relation to dna. What is "British" dna? - it's all the result of successive migrations from elsewhere. Everyone came from somewhere else. 23andMe seem to be more sure about identifying British/Irish DNA than that of continental Europe. This could be either because it is a very unique mixture from different sources or because there are gene variants which are rather unique to the British Isles. I don't see why not, since the British (and more so the Irish) have been relatively isolated for a long time except for the A-Saxons & Vikings. Why should genetic mutations have only occurred on the continent and why not after the Bronze Age?


Do you maybe stop being British, Welsh or whatever if your Y dna has only been in that Country for less than 500 years, or 200 years, or a 1,000 years? Is there a cut-off point? :)Philosophy of identity! There's no denying that identity changes as time goes on and it can only be a matter of democratic agreement as to what constitutes native British or any other nationality. I don't share the obsession with Y-DNA that some seem to have since it is only a small part of the picture. Autosomally, when a population has absorbed a wave of migrants and the DNA has become fairly well spread out then from that point I think it can be considered a 'pure' population, pure in the sense of being homogeneous. So that would be for about the last 1000 years for the British.

Caratacus
09-11-2016, 10:44 AM
That is an interesting chart Avalon, but where are the white triangles on it that represent Cumbria? I don't see them. Also on the POBI chart here, http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/02/a-genetic-map-of-british-population.html Northumbria seems further removed from the red (Anglo-Saxon?) squares than what your chart above shows. On the chart I reference here, some of the orange circles representing Northumbria are in the midst of some of the northern most red squares, but there are quite a number that are some distance from the red squares.

Why is there a difference in the two charts, is it because the two are showing different K levels of resolution, or in one chart they don't have the prerequisite of the 4 grandparents being born in the area? I was unable to view the images on the supplementary link you give without them being small.

Also, do the red squares represent almost purely Anglo-Saxon ancestry, or is there a significant amount of the Celtic heritage in them?You might not have seen the pie-chart map from PotBI. This is my own version with different colouring to improve clarity:

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/PotBI%202015%20Britain%20Map%20My%20Version_zpswv5 8tnlo.jpg

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-11-2016, 12:01 PM
Celtic Briton presumably - the subjects of Boudicca et al. It seems the big confounding factor in this subject is that the lowland Britons already had quite a lot of 'Germanic' admixture from the Bronze Age and possibly earlier times. I wonder if even before the Romans came the lowland Britons thought of the Welsh and Scots as being a bit different to themselves and a bit 'wild'?

23andMe seem to be more sure about identifying British/Irish DNA than that of continental Europe. This could be either because it is a very unique mixture from different sources or because there are gene variants which are rather unique to the British Isles. I don't see why not, since the British (and more so the Irish) have been relatively isolated for a long time except for the A-Saxons & Vikings. Why should genetic mutations have only occurred on the continent and why not after the Bronze Age?

Philosophy of identity! There's no denying that identity changes as time goes on and it can only be a matter of democratic agreement as to what constitutes native British or any other nationality. I don't share the obsession with Y-DNA that some seem to have since it is only a small part of the picture. Autosomally, when a population has absorbed a wave of migrants and the DNA has become fairly well spread out then from that point I think it can be considered a 'pure' population, pure in the sense of being homogeneous. So that would be for about the last 1000 years for the British.

I suppose a couple of those questions were a bit rhetorical as I have some thoughts on it, but others are probably better qualified to have those views than me. :) I share your view that the "English" had mixed origins and I suppose I was trying to make the point that it is a bit simplistic to think of them just in terms of just A/S.
I think you are probably right that even way back, people had a different sense of identity possibly more related to tribes than countries.
I tested originally with Cymru/Britains DNA and I don't think they even use the term "British DNA", but I could be wrong. I suppose it is possible to define "British" dna, based on specific factors but surely that has to be related to a specific point in time because migration continues, as it has for thousands of years.
That's how I tend to see it anyway. :)

Jean M
09-11-2016, 08:45 PM
Low-lying Anglesey was the grainstore of Gwent

What is the matter with me? I meant Gwynedd. Sorry.

rms2
09-11-2016, 09:53 PM
What is the matter with me? I meant Gwynedd. Sorry.

I do the same sorts of things, more often than I like.

fridurich
09-22-2016, 04:16 AM
Hi Jean,
I disagree with you about lowland Scotland being of Anglo Saxon decent, "Strathclyde","Ystrad Clud" was an independent(Brythnonic) kingdom in Scotland well into the 11th Century, so this is past the time of the Anglo Saxon migrations. and collapsed more due to pressure from Vikings than the Anglo Saxons who by then were a spent force. Then being united with the Kingdom of the Scots thereafter.

Also, I doubt if Galloway was predominantly Anglo-Saxon. This area and Ayr probably are where the biggest percentage of the Scottish Planters to Northern Ireland came from. I believe the Galwegians have some Anglo-Saxon ancestry, as well as Norman, Viking, and other non-Celtic groups. However, Gaelic was spoken there in the 15th century, probably in many or most places there in the 16th century, and there were probably people who spoke Gaelic there at the time of the 1609 Ulster Plantation and beyond. History tells of people of mixed Viking and Irish descent settling there also. I believe there was also a significant amount of Brythonic Celtic ancestry in the Galwegians. Can't remember for sure if there were Picts there as well.

If you look at place names in Galloway and Ayr today, there are quite a number of English ones, but there are a great many Gaelic place names. Some of the names of the Planters were Gaelic surnames such as Kennedy, and there were quite a number of surnames in Galloway that had the Gaelic Mac prefix.

Y-DNA wise, there seems to be quite a bit of M222 in southwest Scotland, including Galloway, although it isn't the majority haplogroup. Across the sea in Northern Ireland, and adjacent areas of Ireland, there is a whole lot of M222, maybe one fifth or one fourth of the men in certain places. I can't remember what the YDNA haplogroup that is common place in descendants of the Scottish Border Reiver family of Beattie is, but I have read that the same haplogroup is in some well known Irish surnames across the Irish Sea. Additionally, I'm not sure about how close Galloway is to Ireland MtDNA wise. As far as autosomal DNA, if we go to the POBI projects supplementary information http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v519/n7543/extref/nature14230-s1.pdf ,at the bottom of the last PDF page, you will see the effects of using the highest number of K on the clusters in the British Isles. When you look at the yellow rings, which represent the Planters (N. Ireland/S. Scotland), you do see the majority of them within or close to the red squares. It is my understanding that the red squares represent the English group that have the most Anglo-Saxon ancestry. However, there is a number of the yellow rings that are away from the red squares, even some of them close to the green triangles that represent Gaelic N.Ireland/W. Scotland. I don't think that even the red squares themselves represent people who are 100 percent Anglo-Saxon, but instead have Saxon and some degree of Celtic ancestry.

CillKenny
09-22-2016, 08:53 AM
The Beattys are Z255 - the Irish Sea group. In Ireland mostly confined to Leinster and associated with the Byrnes, Kavanaghs etc

fridurich
09-23-2016, 03:09 AM
The Beattys are Z255 - the Irish Sea group. In Ireland mostly confined to Leinster and associated with the Byrnes, Kavanaghs etc

Thanks, yes, I remember now. You are right, the Beattys are Z255, and I remember the Byrnes, and Kavanaghs as being some of the Gaelic Irish surnames that had that haplogroup.

sktibo
09-23-2016, 06:15 PM
If I'm too late on this one, forgive me, but this is a particular subject I've spent some time looking into.

The article is just shock value. Welsh people who take ancestry tests on average get most British (50-60% ish) and secondly Irish (around 30%). It doesn't mean that they're less Celtic, it just means that a large portion of their genome is closer to what the English share. The Irish samples are commonly mislabeled Celtic when in fact they are Irish, nothing else (Ok, and west Scottish I suspect). We know from POBI that the most anglo Saxon person in England is 40% tops, probably not even that. There's absolutely no way a Welsh person is close

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-23-2016, 06:27 PM
If I'm too late on this one, forgive me, but this is a particular subject I've spent some time looking into.

The article is just shock value. Welsh people who take ancestry tests on average get most British (50-60% ish) and secondly Irish (around 30%). It doesn't mean that they're less Celtic, it just means that a large portion of their genome is closer to what the English share. The Irish samples are commonly mislabeled Celtic when in fact they are Irish, nothing else (Ok, and west Scottish I suspect). We know from POBI that the most anglo Saxon person in England is 40% tops, probably not even that. There's absolutely no way a Welsh person is close

Possibly it may depend how close Welsh people lived to the Border ( discounting recent migration from England)? In the Eastern Counties there must have been some inter-marriage. People crossed borders.
In Breckonshire ( From the Irish King Brychan) there was allegedly an Irish presence, but whether it left a genetic impact, I don't know. :) https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjr_rnKjabPAhVCAsAKHZfSCfcQFggcMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBrycha n&usg=AFQjCNE0BksPqtpYN78tVn8TejJM6Lq_KA&sig2=r-qeaAqqzaLjwCk4KhHoMQ

sktibo
09-23-2016, 07:25 PM
I think it's just that for the average Welsh person 30% of their DNA lines up better with the Irish category. Ancestry needs to add a Welsh category of some sort to know anything definite.

avalon
09-28-2016, 08:10 AM
If I'm too late on this one, forgive me, but this is a particular subject I've spent some time looking into.

The article is just shock value. Welsh people who take ancestry tests on average get most British (50-60% ish) and secondly Irish (around 30%). It doesn't mean that they're less Celtic, it just means that a large portion of their genome is closer to what the English share. The Irish samples are commonly mislabeled Celtic when in fact they are Irish, nothing else (Ok, and west Scottish I suspect). We know from POBI that the most anglo Saxon person in England is 40% tops, probably not even that. There's absolutely no way a Welsh person is close

It depends which Welsh person you ask.

For instance, a good college friend of mine was born and bred in Newport, South Wales, as were his parents. But his genealogical research showed that all his grandparents had easily identifiable English surnames and that prior to the 19th/early 20th century his deep ancestry was mostly in Bristol and the wider Gloucestershire area, not in Wales. So somebody like that probably has a reasonable chunk of Anglo-Saxon ancestry, although hard to quantify. There are plenty of Welsh people today, particularly in the highly populated areas of SE and NE Wales who have significant amounts of fairly recent English ancestry. Pop icon, Tom Jones is another well known example. (75% English ancestry)

If we assume as per PoBI that Anglo Saxon ancestry is likely under 50% (mostly between 10 and 40%) then probably the highest % could be in places like East Anglia at around 40-45% so I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that in places like Gloucestshire, Somerset and other western English counties that Anglo-Saxon ancestry is around 10-40%. By the same token, those Welsh people with lots of fairly recent English ancestry are likely to be in the same ball park, maybe 10-30%.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-28-2016, 08:39 AM
I've just been going back a little further in my maternal grandmother's Family Tree, Herefordshire and borders area. Surnames which feature back to around 1800
Jones, Morgan, Gough, Price, Bethel. (Welsh)
Leith (Scottish)
Newton, Colcott (English)
Interesting that relatively few are English.

sktibo
09-29-2016, 03:40 AM
It depends which Welsh person you ask.

For instance, a good college friend of mine was born and bred in Newport, South Wales, as were his parents. But his genealogical research showed that all his grandparents had easily identifiable English surnames and that prior to the 19th/early 20th century his deep ancestry was mostly in Bristol and the wider Gloucestershire area, not in Wales. So somebody like that probably has a reasonable chunk of Anglo-Saxon ancestry, although hard to quantify. There are plenty of Welsh people today, particularly in the highly populated areas of SE and NE Wales who have significant amounts of fairly recent English ancestry. Pop icon, Tom Jones is another well known example. (75% English ancestry)

If we assume as per PoBI that Anglo Saxon ancestry is likely under 50% (mostly between 10 and 40%) then probably the highest % could be in places like East Anglia at around 40-45% so I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that in places like Gloucestshire, Somerset and other western English counties that Anglo-Saxon ancestry is around 10-40%. By the same token, those Welsh people with lots of fairly recent English ancestry are likely to be in the same ball park, maybe 10-30%.

IIRC they said that the most Anglo Saxon person in England would be 40% tops, and they thought that it would actually be less than that. 40% was used as an overestimation to be safe. this is why I made the bold claim about there being no way a Welsh person could be close to that.

It is interesting that you mention Gloucestershire and Somerset, from what I've been told a lot of Welsh people lived in that area. My aunt did our family's genealogy, and my great grandmother was a native Welsh speaker from that Welsh-English border area. We know that Welsh was her family's first language, but our records indicate that they moved around Glamorgan, Gloucestershire, and Somerset. It appeared that they weren't actually "from" Wales. I asked my aunt about this and she told me that my Great Grandmother said that in her day, they didn't necessarily see those areas as part of England. I was told that the English/Welsh border wasn't as defined as it is today. So perhaps it's possible that your Welsh friend whose research led him back to Gloucestershire might not be any less Welsh for it (assuming this detail of my family history is true.. but I find it hard to believe that a bunch of people would move from southern England into Wales and all become Welsh speakers).

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-29-2016, 05:48 AM
IIRC they said that the most Anglo Saxon person in England would be 40% tops, and they thought that it would actually be less than that. 40% was used as an overestimation to be safe. this is why I made the bold claim about there being no way a Welsh person could be close to that.

It is interesting that you mention Gloucestershire and Somerset, from what I've been told a lot of Welsh people lived in that area. My aunt did our family's genealogy, and my great grandmother was a native Welsh speaker from that Welsh-English border area. We know that Welsh was her family's first language, but our records indicate that they moved around Glamorgan, Gloucestershire, and Somerset. It appeared that they weren't actually "from" Wales. I asked my aunt about this and she told me that my Great Grandmother said that in her day, they didn't necessarily see those areas as part of England. I was told that the English/Welsh border wasn't as defined as it is today. So perhaps it's possible that your Welsh friend whose research led him back to Gloucestershire might not be any less Welsh for it (assuming this detail of my family history is true.. but I find it hard to believe that a bunch of people would move from southern England into Wales and all become Welsh speakers).

There is often a lot of comment about the relatively recent English migration into parts of Wales, which is true, but from my own family research and what I've read I think there is a substantial ancestral Welsh presence in the English counties to the East of the border.
Herefordshire was a Welsh Kingdom at one time and Welsh was spoken in parts up to the 19th Century. There are loads of Welsh place names in Herefordshire.
I certainly don't believe that historically the border was a sort of closed frontier with the "Welsh" on one side and the "English" on the other. This may have been true to some extent during periods of conflict, but it's not how people lived their day-to-day lives I don't think.

AnnieD
09-29-2016, 06:01 AM
Welsh people who take ancestry tests on average get most British (50-60% ish) and secondly Irish (around 30%). It doesn't mean that they're less Celtic, it just means that a large portion of their genome is closer to what the English share.

I'm impressed that you've found so many Welsh samples or test results. The British ancestry discussions that I followed over at 23andMe tended to be tilted towards Americans of British diaspora (like myself) or Europeans of mixed British or mostly English, Scottish or Irish but never a fully Welsh person. :( The one time that a thread was started by a poster alleging fully Welsh ancestry, he never returned to the discussion and posted his results. Maybe he took another test or Gedmatch calculator and found out that he was really Irish or Scottish ... and defected to the other side. B)

sktibo
09-29-2016, 06:55 AM
I'm impressed that you've found so many Welsh samples or test results. The British ancestry discussions that I followed over at 23andMe tended to be tilted towards Americans of British diaspora (like myself) or Europeans of mixed British or mostly English, Scottish or Irish but never a fully Welsh person. :( The one time that a thread was started by a poster alleging fully Welsh ancestry, he never returned to the discussion and posted his results. Maybe he took another test or Gedmatch calculator and found out that he was really Irish or Scottish ... and defected to the other side. B)

Ya got me AnnieD, I have not found many. I was basing that off of the posts I've read which AncestryDNA wrote similar to the title post, some claiming around 50-60% GB score. One YouTuber claimed his dad scored 29% Irish and 60% GB on his Ancestry test, and claimed his dad was North Welsh as far back as they knew. It appears to line up, but as you are pointing out, it's not conclusive. Heck, I didn't even cite my sources.

What I think could be fairly reliable on this matter is of course the POBI study, which perhaps we can agree is currently the best thing we have in this department? According to them, three of the Welsh regions (all except for Welsh Borders) don't have any visible "N and NW Germany" component on the pie charts, which is supposed to be the Anglo-Saxon component. The "Danish" component could also indicate this, of which they have a very small amount. Either way, they appear to have nothing remotely close to the main Southeast England category, in which we see the highest Anglo-Saxon percentage. Even if you have a person of Welsh ancestry who is fairly mixed with the English, I don't think it's likely that said person would be as Anglo-Saxon as someone from Eastern England.
Since you called me out on my lack of sources, this is what I am referring to: http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/nl6.pdf. I'm sure you've read what I'm talking about, but it's more for the sake of completeness.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-29-2016, 08:19 AM
Ya got me AnnieD, I have not found many. I was basing that off of the posts I've read which AncestryDNA wrote similar to the title post, some claiming around 50-60% GB score. One YouTuber claimed his dad scored 29% Irish and 60% GB on his Ancestry test, and claimed his dad was North Welsh as far back as they knew. It appears to line up, but as you are pointing out, it's not conclusive. Heck, I didn't even cite my sources.

What I think could be fairly reliable on this matter is of course the POBI study, which perhaps we can agree is currently the best thing we have in this department? According to them, three of the Welsh regions (all except for Welsh Borders) don't have any visible "N and NW Germany" component on the pie charts, which is supposed to be the Anglo-Saxon component. The "Danish" component could also indicate this, of which they have a very small amount. Either way, they appear to have nothing remotely close to the main Southeast England category, in which we see the highest Anglo-Saxon percentage. Even if you have a person of Welsh ancestry who is fairly mixed with the English, I don't think it's likely that said person would be as Anglo-Saxon as someone from Eastern England.
Since you called me out on my lack of sources, this is what I am referring to: http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/nl6.pdf. I'm sure you've read what I'm talking about, but it's more for the sake of completeness.

I think it's inevitable and understandable that the more accessible parts of Wales which may include the coastal fringes will be more "mixed" genetically than those regions which are more remote and perhaps had less to offer invaders in the past, mineral wealth being the exception. In the uplands we don't have the sort of agriculture which could support a fairly dense population. I did read somewhere that upland grazing wasn't the type of agriculture that the A/S were interested in.

sktibo
09-29-2016, 08:36 AM
I think it's inevitable and understandable that the more accessible parts of Wales which may include the coastal fringes will be more "mixed" genetically than those regions which are more remote and perhaps had less to offer invaders in the past, mineral wealth being the exception. In the uplands we don't have the sort of agriculture which could support a fairly dense population. I did read somewhere that upland grazing wasn't the type of agriculture that the A/S were interested in.

That is interesting. I suppose it makes sense though, as the lowlands they came from were, well, lowlands.

Dubhthach
09-29-2016, 09:57 AM
Ya got me AnnieD, I have not found many. I was basing that off of the posts I've read which AncestryDNA wrote similar to the title post, some claiming around 50-60% GB score. One YouTuber claimed his dad scored 29% Irish and 60% GB on his Ancestry test, and claimed his dad was North Welsh as far back as they knew. It appears to line up, but as you are pointing out, it's not conclusive. Heck, I didn't even cite my sources.

What I think could be fairly reliable on this matter is of course the POBI study, which perhaps we can agree is currently the best thing we have in this department? According to them, three of the Welsh regions (all except for Welsh Borders) don't have any visible "N and NW Germany" component on the pie charts, which is supposed to be the Anglo-Saxon component. The "Danish" component could also indicate this, of which they have a very small amount. Either way, they appear to have nothing remotely close to the main Southeast England category, in which we see the highest Anglo-Saxon percentage. Even if you have a person of Welsh ancestry who is fairly mixed with the English, I don't think it's likely that said person would be as Anglo-Saxon as someone from Eastern England.
Since you called me out on my lack of sources, this is what I am referring to: http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/nl6.pdf. I'm sure you've read what I'm talking about, but it's more for the sake of completeness.

My feeling is that the Great Britain component in Ancestry might match to POBI cluster 17 (in their original presentation that had Irish comparison), which they attributed to been "French" -- given that in an upcoming revision of Ancestry they are going to merge "Great Britain" and "Western European" (while hiving off German's as "Central European") this reinforces my theory.

In which case a 60% British + 29% Irish would make sense for North Welsh person:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/POBI/POBI-16-17.png

see NW Wales here (best guesstimate table based on pie charts)

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/Breakdown_of_UK_DNA.gif

sktibo
09-29-2016, 06:33 PM
My feeling is that the Great Britain component in Ancestry might match to POBI cluster 17 (in their original presentation that had Irish comparison), which they attributed to been "French" -- given that in an upcoming revision of Ancestry they are going to merge "Great Britain" and "Western European" (while hiving off German's as "Central European") this reinforces my theory.

In which case a 60% British + 29% Irish would make sense for North Welsh person:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/POBI/POBI-16-17.png

see NW Wales here (best guesstimate table based on pie charts)

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/Breakdown_of_UK_DNA.gif

That seems like it would make sense. I'm not sure if it's evidence of your theory or not, but the vast majority of my DNA relatives are French, so I am assuming in my case that means my great Britain component corresponds mostly to France. (About 70%)

avalon
09-30-2016, 07:29 AM
There is often a lot of comment about the relatively recent English migration into parts of Wales, which is true, but from my own family research and what I've read I think there is a substantial ancestral Welsh presence in the English counties to the East of the border.
Herefordshire was a Welsh Kingdom at one time and Welsh was spoken in parts up to the 19th Century. There are loads of Welsh place names in Herefordshire.
I certainly don't believe that historically the border was a sort of closed frontier with the "Welsh" on one side and the "English" on the other. This may have been true to some extent during periods of conflict, but it's not how people lived their day-to-day lives I don't think.

I think when it comes to amounts of English and Welsh ancestry, ultimately it comes down to an individual's personal genealogy and surnames are usually a good clue as English names are generally easy to distinguish from Welsh although there are examples such as Richards which can have an English or Welsh origin. So, in the Welsh-English borderlands, by which I mean on both sides of the border, people's genealogies will vary. There is probably also a rural/urban split where generally speaking rural populations are likely to be more long-standing and less mixed than people in the towns although I am generalising.

In terms of the history, you're right the "borderlands" have always been fairly contested territory, a sort of hybrid English Welsh zone although in Anglo-Saxon times I think Offa's Dyke was a fairly clear physical separation for long periods.

I also think that there could be a fair amount of Anglo-Norman ancestry in the Welsh borders (Welsh March) as the Norman barons (Marcher Lords) had a lot of power and influence in this area 1086-1400. Such that on the Welsh side of the border you have towns such as Welshpool, Newtown, Knighton, Builth Wells, Montogomery that were established by the Normans and from early on had a lot of English influence. And then on the English side in places like Herefordshire and Shropshire a lot Welsh influence such as place names and language like you said. So the influence worked both ways.

http://www.castlewales.com/march.html

Cascio
09-30-2016, 08:00 AM
What is now Scotland has not been 100% free of Anglo-Saxons and similar since c. AD 550. The present Scotland is an amalgam of lowland Scots of Anglo-Saxon descent and highlanders and islanders of mixed Celt and Viking origin. And the lowlands have always been more heavily settled. Details for Wales follow.


With respect, only South-east Scotland up to Edinburgh was Anglo-Saxon and part of Northumbria for centuries.

The Britons of Strathclyde were Brythonic Celts speaking a form of Welsh while Gaelic-speakers from Celtic Ireland occupied Southwest Scotland (Galloway and South Ayrshire) as well as the Highlands.

Dubhthach
09-30-2016, 08:35 AM
That seems like it would make sense. I'm not sure if it's evidence of your theory or not, but the vast majority of my DNA relatives are French, so I am assuming in my case that means my great Britain component corresponds mostly to France. (About 70%)

Well Ancestry has said before that their "Great Britain" component is almost indistinguisable from the "Western European" one, given that they've managed to spilt the "Central European" (eg. Germans etc.) out of "Western European" component in their beta, it would make sense that remaining "Western European" (French mainly?) component would coalesce with the "Great Britain" component -- producing "Great Britain/Western European"

The percentages in PoBI for the Ireland component (before they excluded it) in various regions basically matches up with what we see in AncestryDNA and Irish component showing up in British samples etc.

avalon
09-30-2016, 09:33 AM
I think it's inevitable and understandable that the more accessible parts of Wales which may include the coastal fringes will be more "mixed" genetically than those regions which are more remote and perhaps had less to offer invaders in the past, mineral wealth being the exception. In the uplands we don't have the sort of agriculture which could support a fairly dense population. I did read somewhere that upland grazing wasn't the type of agriculture that the A/S were interested in.

Similar story with the Normans. Their feudal manorial system required good agricultural land so when they settled in Wales it was usually on the low lying, good land whist the native Welsh were often confined to the poorer uplands.

A good example of this from North Wales is in the Vale of Clwyd where castles and towns were established in medieval times and the natives were confined to the desolate Mynydd Hiraethog to the west. I think it was in Ruthin that at one time Welshmen were not allowed to enter the town walls.

As an aside you may enjoy this BBC documentary from 1976 about old Welsh Shepherds in the hills of mid Wales. Not great quality but fascinating look into an old way of life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiVdTSVrddM

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-30-2016, 12:06 PM
Similar story with the Normans. Their feudal manorial system required good agricultural land so when they settled in Wales it was usually on the low lying, good land whist the native Welsh were often confined to the poorer uplands.

A good example of this from North Wales is in the Vale of Clwyd where castles and towns were established in medieval times and the natives were confined to the desolate Mynydd Hiraethog to the west. I think it was in Ruthin that at one time Welshmen were not allowed to enter the town walls.

As an aside you may enjoy this BBC documentary from 1976 about old Welsh Shepherds in the hills of mid Wales. Not great quality but fascinating look into an old way of life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiVdTSVrddM

Supposedly it is still legal to shoot a Welshman with a longbow in Hereford on a Sunday ( terms and conditions apply) :)
There are similar stories about Chester but that is a myth I believe. I never go to Hereford on a Sunday anyway. I will have a look at that documentary a bit later.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjErMCPhbfPAhWBD8AKHWoMCdcQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.information-britain.co.uk%2Fcountydidyouknow.php%3Fcounty%3D23&usg=AFQjCNG5BhwIF2yiDFGGGyttrtKiBzNYjg&sig2=jYte72zYWsAvO4QX-HCuYQ

corner
09-30-2016, 02:38 PM
Supposedly it is still legal to shoot a Welshman with a longbow in Hereford on a Sunday ( terms and conditions apply) :)
There are similar stories about Chester but that is a myth I believe. I never go to Hereford on a Sunday anyway. I will have a look at that documentary a bit later.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjErMCPhbfPAhWBD8AKHWoMCdcQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.information-britain.co.uk%2Fcountydidyouknow.php%3Fcounty%3D23&usg=AFQjCNG5BhwIF2yiDFGGGyttrtKiBzNYjg&sig2=jYte72zYWsAvO4QX-HCuYQThere's supposedly a similar law in York except here it applies to Scotsmen - but only if they are carrying a bow and arrows (and not on a Sunday).

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-30-2016, 04:31 PM
There's supposedly a similar law in York except here it applies to Scotsmen - but only if they are carrying a bow and arrows (and not on a Sunday).

Maybe it means you can shoot a Welshman CARRYING a longbow in Hereford. :) We are a persecuted minority. :)

MacUalraig
09-30-2016, 04:37 PM
Maybe it means you can shoot a Welshman CARRYING a longbow in Hereford. :) We are a persecuted minority. :)

Interesting as I remember a similar folk tale in Oxford, that you could still practise archery in Broad Street as long as you were dressed in green.

moesan
09-30-2016, 04:48 PM
I didn't mean that ALL Welsh names have been fixed since the 16th century, I am well aware that the patronymic naming system continued in NW Wales until later than that. I just meant that the 16th century was when fixing surnames started.

I agree with the rest of your analysis but are you saying that the adoption of patronimic type names, ending in 's' in the English West Country (eg, Rogers, Peters, etc) was down to Welsh immigrants?

Also, I am not sure what you meant by Cornish anthroponomy being more interesting than Welsh one?

Not all first names (biblic, germanic, norman) with -s ending are from Welsh people, but the very must of them are.
Cornish names: they adopted a fixed surnames system earlier than in Wales, as in England, and as in Western England borders, the ones who bore celtic names kept them; so more celtic surnames than in Wales, spite not being more celtic pop.
ex: Andrewartha, Baragwanath, Bonallack, Bodilly, Boscawen, Carloss, Carrick, Chegwidden, Connock, Glynn, Gwennap, Gwinnel, Innis, Kellow, kelynack, Lansallos, Legassick, Lewarne, Maddock, Marrack, Nance, Nancekivell, Ninnis, Polmear, Pengelly, Penglaze, Penpraze, Penrose, Polglaze, Polwin, Roscorla, Retallick, , Roskruge, Ryall, Scawn, Tangye, Trahair, Trebarthen, Treganowan, Treglown, Treleaven, Trenance, Trevanion, Trevethick, Uren, Winnen... Just someones picked among a lot.

moesan
09-30-2016, 05:07 PM
I think L21 was already well represented on both sides of the Channel long before the 5th century exodus of Britons to Armorica (Bretagne). That is one of the things that made Armorica a good place for the Britons to go. Probably they already knew people there and spoke a common language or at least one that was mutually intelligible.

Here's another thing. The Britons who went to Armorica probably were not fleeing the Anglo-Saxons, regardless of what Gildas wrote. The Britons of the exodus came from Cornwall and Wales, and the Anglo-Saxons had not made it far enough west to be a threat to them. According to Dillon and Chadwick, in their book, The Celtic Realms (if I am remembering the source correctly), the Britons of the exodus were actually fleeing the Irish.

it's a bit aside the anglo-saxon question here, but the question of the precise origin of Britton settlers in brittany is not so simple: what does not discard the known role of Gales raiding West Britannia.
Some believe a lot were of Strathclud origin (North Cornovii and akin tribes) got south to Welsh borders, before some passed to Western Aremorica; I personally think that some could have come from East Britain, fleein*g Saxons and settled in Dumnonia and Debonia before emigration; in breton, we have very dsitinct dialects: Gwened (vannes) dialect, more southeastern, shows a mix of gallo-romance and welsh influence, and the North-east and Central dialects (Treger, Haute-Cornouaille and Eastern Basse-Cornouaille (Kernew) and N-W Gwened show evident links to Cornish language, and as this last one (as Devon english dialect) shows a phonetic trend (voicing of S-, F- into Z-, V-) which I think is perhaps the witness of a Belgae link (look at Fleming, Dutch today germanic languages); no proof, but a thought: East Britannia Romanno-Celts of the gentry were not too glad to stay between the Germanics hands? Surely the low statuted folk stayed for a part?

moesan
09-30-2016, 06:44 PM
I'm still trying to understand all these continental components in the Isles auDNA of today (POBI) and their interpretations?!? Did they analyzed IBD??? I prefer admixtures analysis spite they are imperfect. what is NW France or Belgium or W Germany??? Are they basal components? No! Are they known old basic pops? No!
How can they tell a post-Meso pre-Roman origin from a Norman-Angevin later one when speaking of a so called French component? and the Celtic colonization? None? Have not Spanyards something in common with W Frenchies? a Mesolithic + Neolithic common origin ? and Celtae, and Belgae did not send this old stratum mixed with the same+more esatern pops with a bit of Steppes "blood"?
in some "analysis" I see a very simplified tableau with pre-Celts+Celts opposed to Germanics; curious. so Cheshire/Devon people would be almost as Germanic than more eastern English people in recent past? More than Northumbry people? What piece of the data gives that???
Just to say my confusion in front of some conclusions.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-30-2016, 09:31 PM
Similar story with the Normans. Their feudal manorial system required good agricultural land so when they settled in Wales it was usually on the low lying, good land whist the native Welsh were often confined to the poorer uplands.

A good example of this from North Wales is in the Vale of Clwyd where castles and towns were established in medieval times and the natives were confined to the desolate Mynydd Hiraethog to the west. I think it was in Ruthin that at one time Welshmen were not allowed to enter the town walls.

As an aside you may enjoy this BBC documentary from 1976 about old Welsh Shepherds in the hills of mid Wales. Not great quality but fascinating look into an old way of life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiVdTSVrddM

Thanks for the video, this is a way of life which still survives, although not to the same extent as in the past maybe. My father was a part-time sheep farmer in the 1950's, he rode a horse, these days they might use a quad bike or a 4x4 where they can. There is still only one way to manage sheep in the uplands though and that is with dogs, it would be impossible otherwise. I think one of my ancestors was listed in the census as a shepherd, but I haven't ties him down absolutely yet as he was a "Jones" a name too common here, but he had a daughter Sabia Jones which was the name of my great grandmother, so it seems likely, Sabiah not being that common a Christian name.This would be in the Llangynidr area on the Northern edge of the Welsh valleys. These are some photos photo from llangynidr Moor looking towards Llangorse, Abergavenny and the Black Mountains.

11923 11924

avalon
10-01-2016, 10:47 AM
Not all first names (biblic, germanic, norman) with -s ending are from Welsh people, but the very must of them are.
Cornish names: they adopted a fixed surnames system earlier than in Wales, as in England, and as in Western England borders, the ones who bore celtic names kept them; so more celtic surnames than in Wales, spite not being more celtic pop.
ex: Andrewartha, Baragwanath, Bonallack, Bodilly, Boscawen, Carloss, Carrick, Chegwidden, Connock, Glynn, Gwennap, Gwinnel, Innis, Kellow, kelynack, Lansallos, Legassick, Lewarne, Maddock, Marrack, Nance, Nancekivell, Ninnis, Polmear, Pengelly, Penglaze, Penpraze, Penrose, Polglaze, Polwin, Roscorla, Retallick, , Roskruge, Ryall, Scawn, Tangye, Trahair, Trebarthen, Treganowan, Treglown, Treleaven, Trenance, Trevanion, Trevethick, Uren, Winnen... Just someones picked among a lot.

Yes, it is interesting that some of the western counties of England adopted patronymic type names ending in 's' so it looks like the adoption of fixed surnames spread from western England and then through Wales with some parts of Western Wales holding on to the ancient Welsh patronymic naming system for longer.

Just off the top of my head I can think of a few surnames which look Welsh but are actually more likely to have an English origin - Matthews, Rogers, Perkins, Adams, Dawkins, Edmunds, Jeffreys, etc

avalon
10-01-2016, 11:09 AM
Thanks for the video, this is a way of life which still survives, although not to the same extent as in the past maybe. My father was a part-time sheep farmer in the 1950's, he rode a horse, these days they might use a quad bike or a 4x4 where they can. There is still only one way to manage sheep in the uplands though and that is with dogs, it would be impossible otherwise. I think one of my ancestors was listed in the census as a shepherd, but I haven't ties him down absolutely yet as he was a "Jones" a name too common here, but he had a daughter Sabia Jones which was the name of my great grandmother, so it seems likely, Sabiah not being that common a Christian name.This would be in the Llangynidr area on the Northern edge of the Welsh valleys. These are some photos photo from llangynidr Moor looking towards Llangorse, Abergavenny and the Black Mountains.

11923 11924

Too true. Quad bikes seem to be the weapon of choice for modern sheep farmers. I'm sure the old time shepherds were much fitter!

moesan
10-01-2016, 05:05 PM
Yes, it is interesting that some of the western counties of England adopted patronymic type names ending in 's' so it looks like the adoption of fixed surnames spread from western England and then through Wales with some parts of Western Wales holding on to the ancient Welsh patronymic naming system for longer.

Just off the top of my head I can think of a few surnames which look Welsh but are actually more likely to have an English origin - Matthews, Rogers, Perkins, Adams, Dawkins, Edmunds, Jeffreys, etc

Uneasy to say, I think: in Wales we can consider the very most of Jones, Davies, Thomas, Lewis and Williams people are of welsh origin, in England they can be both, even if I think a lot are of remote welsh origin. I's true the vogue was not always the same everywhere for christian names before they became second names(surnames); I bet: Edmunds is rather welsh (not by etymology of course!), Matthews, Rogers, Adams seems spred everywhere and not particuliarly welsh in geography; (Rogers turned into Rosser, Prosser in Wales) - it seems to me the names in -kins are found more often in West England than in East but I' ve no sufficient states; one Perkins was supposed of Breton origin (Per, Pierre) come along with the Normans: this mode is based by adding -kins (diminutive: a bit as Flemings and Dutches do) to a first name: Peter/Perkins, David/Dawkins, John/Jenkins (Jenkins is almost exclusively welsh), Roger/Hodgkins, Robert/ Hopkins, Walter/Watkins, Richard/Dickins/Dickens... my impression: it's a habit which came at the "Normans" times (some Flemings were with them, BTW!).Roughly said, Jenkins, but also Hopkins, Watkins, Hawkins seem more common among Welsh people than English people in %s. Jeffreys, Jefferies are of germanic origin but show typical french evolution, not norman (more germanic) but angevin (Plantagenêts); some christian names/surnames seem to me come from France: Reynolds, Raybould, Jeffrey, Jefferies, Raymond, Henry, Francis, Charles... Williams itself is a Viking form (Vilhjalm) for Wilhelm; surelycome woth Normans.
just for the fun.

JonikW
10-01-2016, 05:53 PM
Too true. Quad bikes seem to be the weapon of choice for modern sheep farmers. I'm sure the old time shepherds were much fitter!

How times have changed! On the subject of Welsh rural transport, I remember seeing an old man in a coracle somewhere in mid Wales as a child in the seventies. We were off to stay with a Welsh speaking family who taught me my first Welsh words. I also remember going to a shepherd's hut with our friends during that same holiday of a like that must be long gone by now. Lovely pics of the Black Mountains by the way. Much appreciated JohnHowellsTyfro

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-01-2016, 06:44 PM
Uneasy to say, I think: in Wales we can consider the very most of Jones, Davies, Thomas, Lewis and Williams people are of welsh origin, in England they can be both, even if I think a lot are of remote welsh origin. I's true the vogue was not always the same everywhere for christian names before they became second names(surnames); I bet: Edmunds is rather welsh (not by etymology of course!), Matthews, Rogers, Adams seems spred everywhere and not particuliarly welsh in geography; (Rogers turned into Rosser, Prosser in Wales) - it seems to me the names in -kins are found more often in West England than in East but I' ve no sufficient states; one Perkins was supposed of Breton origin (Per, Pierre) come along with the Normans: this mode is based by adding -kins (diminutive: a bit as Flemings and Dutches do) to a first name: Peter/Perkins, David/Dawkins, John/Jenkins (Jenkins is almost exclusively welsh), Roger/Hodgkins, Robert/ Hopkins, Walter/Watkins, Richard/Dickins/Dickens... my impression: it's a habit which came at the "Normans" times (some Flemings were with them, BTW!).Roughly said, Jenkins, but also Hopkins, Watkins, Hawkins seem more common among Welsh people than English people in %s. Jeffreys, Jefferies are of germanic origin but show typical french evolution, not norman (more germanic) but angevin (Plantagenêts); some christian names/surnames seem to me come from France: Reynolds, Raybould, Jeffrey, Jefferies, Raymond, Henry, Francis, Charles... Williams itself is a Viking form (Vilhjalm) for Wilhelm; surelycome woth Normans.
just for the fun.

Do you have any thoughts on "Howells" and variations please? It isn't a common name amongst the Welsh. I've read a number of sources which suggest a link to Brittany and even a claim that it was brought to the Welsh Borders from there by returning "Briton" migrants, but I haven't found any evidence to justify that. I've found it a little odd that I have a "Welsh" surname but am U106, but as my paternal line is from near the Welsh border I suppose an Anglo/Welsh combination is possible.
I've even seen claims it is of ancient East Anglian origin or from Linolnshire which in my case might make more sense given my probable Anglo/Saxon Y dna :-

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiP2-fAn7rPAhWMK8AKHYJGDucQFghGMAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforebears.co.uk%2Fsurnames%2Fhowe ll&usg=AFQjCNH6VizKRvz15UZNj3-xv6rrKLW1KQ&sig2=7zzka7G7k7EwUNTAo13HEQ

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-01-2016, 07:10 PM
How times have changed! On the subject of Welsh rural transport, I remember seeing an old man in a coracle somewhere in mid Wales as a child in the seventies. We were off to stay with a Welsh speaking family who taught me my first Welsh words. I also remember going to a shepherd's hut with our friends during that same holiday of a like that must be long gone by now. Lovely pics of the Black Mountains by the way. Much appreciated JohnHowellsTyfro

You are very welcome. :) I live on the Northern edge of the South Wales valleys uplands near Blaenavon, to the North and East the landscape and geology changes considerably and the soil and climate improves. :)
Here are a few more photos of the Skirrid and Sugarloaf near Abergavenny and the distant Landscape looking North into what was Breckonshire, but now Powys. Only taken with a small pocket camera, so the quality isn't great I'm afraid.


11945 11943 11944

JonikW
10-02-2016, 03:45 PM
You are very welcome. :) I live on the Northern edge of the South Wales valleys uplands near Blaenavon, to the North and East the landscape and geology changes considerably and the soil and climate improves. :)
Here are a few more photos of the Skirrid and Sugarloaf near Abergavenny and the distant Landscape looking North into what was Breckonshire, but now Powys. Only taken with a small pocket camera, so the quality isn't great I'm afraid.


11945 11943 11944

I've got Watkins and Lewis lines from that part of Wales. I've found them listed as Welsh speakers on censuses. My Grandmother always said they came from the Lewis of the Van family. Those are beautiful pics of places I haven't seen for some years. Thanks!

avalon
10-02-2016, 05:26 PM
Uneasy to say, I think: in Wales we can consider the very most of Jones, Davies, Thomas, Lewis and Williams people are of welsh origin, in England they can be both, even if I think a lot are of remote welsh origin. I's true the vogue was not always the same everywhere for christian names before they became second names(surnames); I bet: Edmunds is rather welsh (not by etymology of course!), Matthews, Rogers, Adams seems spred everywhere and not particuliarly welsh in geography; (Rogers turned into Rosser, Prosser in Wales) - it seems to me the names in -kins are found more often in West England than in East but I' ve no sufficient states; one Perkins was supposed of Breton origin (Per, Pierre) come along with the Normans: this mode is based by adding -kins (diminutive: a bit as Flemings and Dutches do) to a first name: Peter/Perkins, David/Dawkins, John/Jenkins (Jenkins is almost exclusively welsh), Roger/Hodgkins, Robert/ Hopkins, Walter/Watkins, Richard/Dickins/Dickens... my impression: it's a habit which came at the "Normans" times (some Flemings were with them, BTW!).Roughly said, Jenkins, but also Hopkins, Watkins, Hawkins seem more common among Welsh people than English people in %s. Jeffreys, Jefferies are of germanic origin but show typical french evolution, not norman (more germanic) but angevin (Plantagenêts); some christian names/surnames seem to me come from France: Reynolds, Raybould, Jeffrey, Jefferies, Raymond, Henry, Francis, Charles... Williams itself is a Viking form (Vilhjalm) for Wilhelm; surelycome woth Normans.
just for the fun.

An interesting point about Welsh surnames is that some of the most common ones derive from first names that were introduced to Britain by the Normans - eg, John, Thomas, William, Robert and became popular in medieval times.

I don't think that Edmunds/Edmonds is Welsh though. Obviously the name Edmund has a Saxon etymology and actually I think like a lot of names that end in 's' really originate in the English west country, not in Wales. All of the names ending in "kins" are quite interesting as they are South Wales names, very rare in North Wales and I also have a feeling that some of them may have a Norman/Flemish origin, by which I mean that Norman and Flemish peasant stock may have settled in South Wales in the middle ages and then later adopted patronymic style names. Jenkins has a strong presence in Wales but a lot of the others like Dawkins, Hawkins, Hoskins, Perkins probably originate in England.

rms2
10-02-2016, 09:36 PM
An interesting point about Welsh surnames is that some of the most common ones derive from first names that were introduced to Britain by the Normans - eg, John, Thomas, William, Robert and became popular in medieval times.

I don't think that Edmunds/Edmonds is Welsh though. Obviously the name Edmund has a Saxon etymology and actually I think like a lot of names that end in 's' really originate in the English west country, not in Wales. All of the names ending in "kins" are quite interesting as they are South Wales names, very rare in North Wales and I also have a feeling that some of them may have a Norman/Flemish origin, by which I mean that Norman and Flemish peasant stock may have settled in South Wales in the middle ages and then later adopted patronymic style names. Jenkins has a strong presence in Wales but a lot of the others like Dawkins, Hawkins, Hoskins, Perkins probably originate in England.

The s ending in many cases is an anglicization of a name that in Welsh was originally ap or ab followed by the father's given name. My own surname appears as ap Stephen or ap Stevyn both in Wales and in Pennsylvania, for example.

avalon
10-03-2016, 07:46 AM
The s ending in many cases is an anglicization of a name that in Welsh was originally ap or ab followed by the father's given name. My own surname appears as ap Stephen or ap Stevyn both in Wales and in Pennsylvania, for example.

Yes of course, you have to look at each surname on an individual basis. In the case of Stephens/Stevens the Welsh etymology is clearer, as in derived from Welsh name Steffan

For others though I am more doubtful and I think that a lot names ending 's' are often mistakenly claimed as Welsh. Eg, Matthews, Adams, Gibbs, Jeffries, Reynolds, Waters, Peters.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-03-2016, 08:12 AM
Yes of course, you have to look at each surname on an individual basis. In the case of Stephens/Stevens the Welsh etymology is clearer, as in derived from Welsh name Steffan

For others though I am more doubtful and I think that a lot names ending 's' are often mistakenly claimed as Welsh. Eg, Matthews, Adams, Gibbs, Jeffreys, Reynolds, Waters, Peters.

I understood the "S" is an abbreviation of "son" which of course is the English way of doing it so in my own case you have a supposedly Welsh Christian name Hywel turned into a surname by the addition of the "S" in English fashion.
I say supposedly because I'm not 100% convinced as yet that Hywel or variations is an exclusively Welsh name.
Just out of curiosity in relation to the English, any idea when their surnames became fixed?

GMan71
10-03-2016, 08:18 AM
Yes of course, you have to look at each surname on an individual basis. In the case of Stephens/Stevens the Welsh etymology is clearer, as in derived from Welsh name Steffan

For others though I am more doubtful and I think that a lot names ending 's' are often mistakenly claimed as Welsh. Eg, Matthews, Adams, Gibbs, Jeffreys, Reynolds, Waters, Peters.

I still hold out hope that the "Walters" of my mothers mothers family from near the Welsh border of Herefordshire originate from a Welshman who just happened to be called Walter following Anglo Norman trends in the area! IIRC I have read somewhere that some of the highest % of the Walters surname is in parts of South Wales.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-03-2016, 12:22 PM
I still hold out hope that the "Walters" of my mothers mothers family from near the Welsh border of Herefordshire originate from a Welshman who just happened to be called Walter following Anglo Norman trends in the area! IIRC I have read somewhere that some of the highest % of the Walters surname is in parts of South Wales.

Just out of curiosity I had a browse and there are quite a lot of Walters in the borders and South Wales.
You can see the distribution by typing in the surname here. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwir957Lz77PAhWCFT4KHfnrA5sQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnamed.publicprofiler.org%2F&usg=AFQjCNEnyc-zILwhFcjA79KtNppML6RFxg&sig2=O9-ZXKHN6XRIg_CAJ0qzXQ&bvm=bv.134495766,d.ZGg

avalon
10-03-2016, 06:39 PM
I still hold out hope that the "Walters" of my mothers mothers family from near the Welsh border of Herefordshire originate from a Welshman who just happened to be called Walter following Anglo Norman trends in the area! IIRC I have read somewhere that some of the highest % of the Walters surname is in parts of South Wales.

Interestingly the slight variation of "Waters" does have a different distribution to "Walters." This map even shows a hot spot of Waters in NE Scotland and in parts of England although as John said "Walters" does have a strong modern day presence in South Wales.

http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Map.aspx?name=WATERS&year=1881&altyear=1998&country=GB&type=name

avalon
10-03-2016, 06:57 PM
Just out of curiosity in relation to the English, any idea when their surnames became fixed?

I'm no expert but I believe the English started fixing surnames during the period 1100s to 1400s so over quite a long time. I am guessing that the first to do so were the "important" people and that the rural, English peasantry were the last to fix their surnames!?

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-04-2016, 06:21 AM
I'm no expert but I believe the English started fixing surnames during the period 1100s to 1400s so over quite a long time. I am guessing that the first to do so were the "important" people and that the rural, English peasantry were the last to fix their surnames!?

That's relatively recent for all our surnames then. I think I may have read something about the Normans and a connection to the Domesday Book, something about knowing exactly who everyone was so they couldn't escape taxation.

Saetro
10-05-2016, 01:48 AM
I think I may have read something about the Normans and a connection to the Domesday Book, something about knowing exactly who everyone was so they couldn't escape taxation.

Also for military service.
In both cases it was also beneficial! If you had a unique surname you would not accidentally be taxed twice.