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Captain Nordic
08-29-2016, 02:28 PM
Are there any genetic studies on Bretons?

Bretons claim to be descendants of British Celts who escaped Anglo saxon rule. So are they genetically closer to Welsh and Cornish people or their french neighbors?

Discuss :)

Dubhthach
08-29-2016, 02:40 PM
Are there any genetic studies on Bretons?

Bretons claim to be descendants of British Celts who escaped Anglo saxon rule. So are they genetically closer to Welsh and Cornish people or their french neighbors?

Discuss :)

Well one could argue that Cluster 17 in the original PoBI analysis is a Brythonic one, in which case it seems to be elevated among NW French sample

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/POBI/POBI-original-clusters.png

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/POBI/POBI-16-17.png

It appears to peak in modern Welsh followed by Cornish.

Helgenes50
08-29-2016, 03:40 PM
Are there any genetic studies on Bretons?

Bretons claim to be descendants of British Celts who escaped Anglo saxon rule. So are they genetically closer to Welsh and Cornish people or their french neighbors?

Discuss :)
A study on this topic

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n6/full/ejhg2014175a.html

Captain Nordic
08-30-2016, 08:15 AM
A study on this topic

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n6/full/ejhg2014175a.html


When computing pairwise IBS, for individuals from this merged data set, we observed that the European countries showing the largest mean IBS with the DESIR-CavsGen individuals were France, UK, Ireland, followed by Germany and Belgium, followed by Spain and Italy (Figure 3 and Supplementary Figure 8). The IBS pattern differed according to French Regions, with the Brittany Region having a specific pattern. The countries that had the largest IBS with the Breton individuals were Ireland, UK and France in this order (Figure 3). The IBS between Irish and Bretons was significantly larger (P<10−12) than the IBS between Irish and individuals from the other regions of Western France (Normandy, Pays de Loire, Poitou-Charente, Centre), and this pattern was also found with the control DESIR-REP data set (Supplementary Figure 9)
It's interesting how Ireland is closer to the Bretons than the UK sample is.

Helgenes50
08-30-2016, 09:14 AM
It's interesting how Ireland is closer to the Bretons than the UK sample is.

And the Normands are closer to the UK sample

Captain Nordic
08-30-2016, 09:35 AM
And the Normands are closer to the UK sample

Yeah, that as well but it looks pretty even between Brittany and Normandy when it comes to their genetic similarity with the UK ;)

Tolan
08-30-2016, 01:20 PM
From K3 admixture:
Green: Breton, Blue: Vendéen and red: other.
http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/public/2014_Karakachoff_FigureS3.jpeg

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/breton.png
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/vendeen.png
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/autre.png

Captain Nordic
08-30-2016, 05:34 PM
From K3 admixture:
Green: Breton, Blue: Vendéen and red: other.
http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/public/2014_Karakachoff_FigureS3.jpeg

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/breton.png
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/vendeen.png
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/autre.png

Nice!
Looks like Brittany is in a category of it's own, with their ancestry mainly being labelled as "Breton".
I guess the theory that their crazy Brythonic language spread by acculturation and not by genetics, making them (Bretons) of native French ancestry, is pretty silly as these studies seem to show that:

* Brittany is in it's own "Breton" genetic category.
* They share the highest IBS with Irish and Brits.
* Cluster 17 (which peaks among Welsh and Cornish people) in the original PoBI seems to be especially elevated in NW France compared to other French regions.

avalon
08-30-2016, 07:26 PM
It's interesting how Ireland is closer to the Bretons than the UK sample is.

Probably because the UK sample didn't include any Welsh samples. ;)

Captain Nordic
08-30-2016, 07:43 PM
Probably because the UK sample didn't include any Welsh samples. ;)

I would suspect so as well :)

It would be interesting to see if Cornish or Welsh people are closer to Bretons. I know the Breton language is the closest to Cornish but i have heard from some that the Cornish can have assimilated more Germanic peoples than they would like to admit ;)

quatre-quarts
10-09-2016, 09:34 PM
My mother is from Lower Brittany and according to Davidski, she resembles Welsh and Irish a lot genetically.

AnnieD
10-09-2016, 09:42 PM
My mother is from Lower Brittany and according to Davidski, she resembles Welsh and Irish a lot genetically.

Would you mind sharing if your Davidski reference is in regard to his Gedmatch calculators or his former Ancestry Detective Service, e.g. a personal genomic analysis from you raw data? Also, does your mother get a British population such as SW or SE English, Cornwall or Welsh in top pops at the Eurogenes K13 or K15? Just curious how the admixture of a Lower Brittany looks as I frequently test southern British / S. Dutch on Gedmatch calculators and have heritage in a region of USA that is reported to have Welsh settlers. :)

rms2
10-09-2016, 09:49 PM
I used to run the Bretagne DNA Project before turning it over to the current admin. I can tell you that in terms of y-dna, Bretons do not have any noticeable tendency to match any British. Last I checked, most of those in the Bretagne Project and the R L21 and Subclades Project are short of matches of any kind.

quatre-quarts
10-09-2016, 10:08 PM
From his former Ancestry Detective Service (I ordered a personal analysis of my raw data and also joined hers).

Eurogenes K13

Top 10

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_English 4.46
2 Southeast_English 4.86
3 Orcadian 5.21
4 Irish 5.75
5 West_Scottish 6.26
6 North_Dutch 6.61
7 South_Dutch 6.76
8 Danish 6.95
9 North_German 7.65
10 Norwegian 8.3

Eurogenes K15

Top 10

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_English 3.27
2 Southeast_English 4.99
3 South_Dutch 5.91
4 Irish 6.41
5 North_Dutch 6.67
6 West_Scottish 6.71
7 Danish 6.84
8 North_German 7.2
9 Orcadian 7.41
10 West_German 8.19

kevinduffy
10-09-2016, 10:50 PM
It's interesting how Ireland is closer to the Bretons than the UK sample is.

The UK sample would, of course, include Anglo-Saxons unlike the Irish and Breton samples. What I find amazing is how little gene flow there has been between the Bretons and people living in other parts of France.

kevinduffy
10-09-2016, 10:52 PM
And the Normands are closer to the UK sample

Maybe the Norman invaders of England had a bigger genetic impact than many people realize?

kevinduffy
10-09-2016, 10:59 PM
Probably because the UK sample didn't include any Welsh samples. ;)

Which would of course mean that there were significant genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.

Helgenes50
10-10-2016, 02:40 AM
Maybe the Norman invaders of England had a bigger genetic impact than many people realize?

Our similarities are much older than the conquest of William
An important episode, but one among many

From the first inhabitants to the Hundred Years War.
Without speaking of the Britons, Saxons, Scandinavians
It is a continual exchange between the two shores

avalon
10-10-2016, 06:52 AM
I would suspect so as well :)

It would be interesting to see if Cornish or Welsh people are closer to Bretons. I know the Breton language is the closest to Cornish but i have heard from some that the Cornish can have assimilated more Germanic peoples than they would like to admit ;)

Yes, as languages Breton is most similar to Cornish but the important point is that Cornish went extinct by 1800 I believe and going by the PCA charts from the PoBI, the modern Cornish appear to have a lot of English admixture.

avalon
10-10-2016, 07:04 AM
Which would of course mean that there were significant genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.

Within a British Isles context, yes the Welsh (particularly North Welsh) do show a noticeable level of genetic separation from the English. Of all the UK clusters, only Orkney appears to be more separated than the North Welsh.

The other thing the PoBI project showed was that the Welsh had the highest levels of the NW France component seen here as FRA14 so I think there is a good case for genetic affinity between modern Welsh and modern Bretons, assuming that researchers sample the right people in Wales.

12066

12067

Helgenes50
10-10-2016, 07:15 AM
Within a British Isles context, yes the Welsh (particularly North Welsh) do show a noticeable level of genetic separation from the English. Of all the UK clusters, only Orkney appears to be more separated than the North Welsh.

The other thing the PoBI project showed was that the Welsh had the highest levels of the NW France component seen here as FRA14 so I think there is a good case for genetic affinity between modern Welsh and modern Bretons, assuming that researchers sample the right people in Wales.

12066

12067
Without forgetting that the Armoricans were, genetically, probably very close to their British neighbours before the Breton immigration.

avalon
10-11-2016, 06:48 PM
Without forgetting that the Armoricans were, genetically, probably very close to their British neighbours before the Breton immigration.

Absolutely. Although from a modern DNA study it is probably difficult to tell how much of the Welsh-Breton affinity dates from historic Breton migration and how much from earlier times.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-11-2016, 06:54 PM
Absolutely. Although from a modern DNA study it is probably difficult to tell how much of the Welsh-Breton affinity dates from historic Breton migration and how much from earlier times.

I suppose it's not really surprising over a long period, given the relative proximity of South Wales and the South West to Brittany.

moesan
10-25-2016, 05:44 PM
I used to run the Bretagne DNA Project before turning it over to the current admin. I can tell you that in terms of y-dna, Bretons do not have any noticeable tendency to match any British. Last I checked, most of those in the Bretagne Project and the R L21 and Subclades Project are short of matches of any kind.

are Bretons numerous to take part in these projects?
all the way, the similarities between Bretons and Western British people (not identity) are for a part very old, fed by two directions genes flow since maybe Late Mesolithic, at these high dates rather from N-W France towards the Isles than the contrary, I think.

cerseilannister
08-05-2019, 01:14 PM
I used to run the Bretagne DNA Project before turning it over to the current admin. I can tell you that in terms of y-dna, Bretons do not have any noticeable tendency to match any British. Last I checked, most of those in the Bretagne Project and the R L21 and Subclades Project are short of matches of any kind.

Hi!

I noticed you were active on Breton DNA sites and stuff. I was wondering if you could help

I think my father was Breton, but he died in the Indochina war in the 50s. Mom is Asian.
I believe he was in the 6th colonial paratroopers, which my friend said was a unit based in Breton.

I took a DNA test and got several interesting results

23andme said Likely France (but no specific region) and NW European (no specific). and like 10% Italian and Southern European

MyHeritage said like 40% Britissh (Irish, Scottish, Wales only, no English), and 10% Iberian

Eurogenes, various calculators came up with a bunch of estimates..usually SE English, SW English, but other calculators put French or Dutch.
when I plotted K36 into one of those map generators.. the highest numbers were centered around the Breton area, Southern UK, Belgium, and the northern part of Germany. the next highest numbers put the rest of the UK, and Denmark.

Tolan calculators put Amorica and Orkadian

One of the ancient calculators said something like Hinxton 5

my paternal Haplogroup is R-L2

do these results match those of Breton or other Celtic people in your opinion?

rms2
08-06-2019, 02:15 AM
Hi!

I noticed you were active on Breton DNA sites and stuff. I was wondering if you could help

I think my father was Breton, but he died in the Indochina war in the 50s. Mom is Asian.
I believe he was in the 6th colonial paratroopers, which my friend said was a unit based in Breton.

I took a DNA test and got several interesting results

23andme said Likely France (but no specific region) and NW European (no specific). and like 10% Italian and Southern European

MyHeritage said like 40% Britissh (Irish, Scottish, Wales only, no English), and 10% Iberian

Eurogenes, various calculators came up with a bunch of estimates..usually SE English, SW English, but other calculators put French or Dutch.
when I plotted K36 into one of those map generators.. the highest numbers were centered around the Breton area, Southern UK, Belgium, and the northern part of Germany. the next highest numbers put the rest of the UK, and Denmark.

Tolan calculators put Amorica and Orkadian

One of the ancient calculators said something like Hinxton 5

my paternal Haplogroup is R-L2

do these results match those of Breton or other Celtic people in your opinion?

Could be right, and R1b-L2 is definitely found in Bretagne, though R1b-L21 is more common.

FTDNA has a Bretagne DNA Project you can join. I used to be the admin of it, but now it's run by a couple of actual Bretons.

Helgenes50
08-06-2019, 06:30 AM
Tolan calculators put Amorica and Orkadian

One of the ancient calculators said something like Hinxton 5

my paternal Haplogroup is R-L2

do these results match those of Breton or other Celtic people in your opinion?

I invite you to join the French subforum. A lot of us are Breton and will be happy to help you.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14488-le-coin-Kroadur-Breizh/page63

Trelvern
08-06-2019, 09:10 AM
Could be right, and R1b-L2 is definitely found in Bretagne, though R1b-L21 is more common.

FTDNA has a Bretagne DNA Project you can join. I used to be the admin of it, but now it's run by a couple of actual Bretons.

I am U106 not L21 and yet entirely breton.

rms2
08-06-2019, 11:37 PM
I am U106 not L21 and yet entirely breton.

Good for you.

I never said there was no U106 in Bretagne, just that L21 is more common there than L2 (which is downstream of U152).

At least L21 was the most common y haplogroup when I was running the Bretagne Project. Maybe that has changed.

I believe the Saxons raided and settled in NW France.

GoldenHind
08-06-2019, 11:50 PM
I believe the Saxons raided and settled in NW France.

I believe they were primarily located in the area around Bayeux in Normandy, where they were known as the Saxones Baiocassensis. Some could have settled in Brittany as well.

rms2
08-07-2019, 01:12 AM
I believe they were primarily located in the area around Bayeux in Normandy, where they were known as the Saxones Baiocassensis. Some could have settled in Brittany as well.

There was a bunch of them known to history as the Loire Saxons.

The British King Riothamus, believed by some to have been the historical King Arthur, waged a campaign against them in Gaul.

fabrice E
08-07-2019, 08:29 PM
There was a bunch of them known to history as the Loire Saxons.

The British King Riothamus, believed by some to have been the historical King Arthur, waged a campaign against them in Gaul.
No, it was against the visigoths and he lost ans then fled to burgundy....
the only known Saxons in western France are from Bayeux, in the sixth century

JonikW
08-07-2019, 08:47 PM
No, it was against the visigoths and he lost ans then fled to burgundy....
the only known Saxons in western France are from Bayeux, in the sixth century

Perhaps worth adding here that further north in France we have Anglo-Saxon "-ham" place names such as Seninghem, Bayenghem, Boisdelinghem and Bouvelinghem.

08-07-2019, 08:55 PM
No, it was against the visigoths and he lost ans then fled to burgundy....
the only known Saxons in western France are from Bayeux, in the sixth century

Interesting correlations between Riothamus, and the legend of King Arthur, didn’t the Burgandians give him and his remnant Army sanctuary, in the village of Avalon? attached is screenshot and in this sense what does Le Bretonniers mean? Seems like there might be some truth of him going to Avalon, with his Breton Army.
32239
P.s.
Also La combe, is that minus the la part, is Brythonic as in Valley, l.e The Valley? Or does this mean something in French? Or Gaulish? Or Latin?

Camulogène Rix
08-07-2019, 09:01 PM
Perhaps worth adding here that further north in France we have Anglo-Saxon "-ham" place names such as Seninghem, Bayenghem, Boisdelinghem and Bouvelinghem.

"-Ham" comes from the indo-european root*tk̑ei‑: to settle, dwell, be home. In French: "Hameau" (small village in the countryside). This suffix is a legacy from the Franks.

JonikW
08-07-2019, 09:24 PM
"-Ham" comes from the indo-european root*tk̑ei‑: to settle, dwell, be home. In French: "Hameau" (small village in the countryside). This suffix is a legacy from the Franks.

I don't think it's as settled as that:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DPsavev7yQ8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=place+names+France+%22-inghem%22&source=bl&ots=XaJr97PUIo&sig=ACfU3U0XcFE5qzjJwIqDV1bp1bnOmcDuig&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwimjN3v1vHjAhVls3EKHeCqDBQQ6AEwC3oECAMQA Q

JonikW
08-07-2019, 09:43 PM
... and here's some French Anglo-Saxon evidence from the material culture. Apologies for my poor photography...

32240

32241

Trelvern
08-07-2019, 10:00 PM
Perhaps worth adding here that further north in France we have Anglo-Saxon "-ham" place names such as Seninghem, Bayenghem, Boisdelinghem and Bouvelinghem.

And 48 place names "tun": such as Landrethun-les-Ardres,Zeltun,Fréthun,Verlincthun..( 9th century) alongside the coast (Boulogne,Calais) linked to the English "ton" . Immigration from the Isles?

A cemetary in Vron (Somme) shelter the remains of Saxons (370/375) from probably Lower Saxony and Schleswig Holstein.

Trelvern
08-07-2019, 10:16 PM
AngloSaxon artefacts32242

My scan is worse
Sorry for that.

circles:fibulae,trappings
squares:ceramic

anglesqueville
08-07-2019, 10:38 PM
Perhaps worth adding here that further north in France we have Anglo-Saxon "-ham" place names such as Seninghem, Bayenghem, Boisdelinghem and Bouvelinghem.

... and in Normandy:

Ham, -ham, certains -a(i)n du saxon ou de l'anglo-saxon hām « maison, hameau » ou encore du vieux norrois heim dans certains cas. Existe ailleurs en France, mais ici d'origine anglo-scandinave. On le trouve dans des régions à forte densité de toponymes anglo-scandinaves. Le Ham ; Ouistreham; Étréham; Huppain; Surrain; Hemevez, puis le Hamel; Hamel-, etc. Hachingaham attesté au XIIe siècle à l'emplacement de Goussouville (Seine-Maritime, Foucarmont) semble être un transfert d'un toponyme anglais en -ing-ham


Ham, -ham, some -a (i) n saxon or Anglo-Saxon hām "house, hamlet" or even old Norse heim in some cases. Exists elsewhere in France, but here of Anglo-Scandinavian origin. It is found in regions with a high density of Anglo-Scandinavian toponyms. Ham; Ouistreham; Étréham; Huppain; Surrain; Hemevez, then Hamel; Hamel-, etc. Hachingaham attested in the twelfth century at the site of Goussouville (Seine-Maritime, Foucarmont) seems to be a transfer of an English toponym in -in-ham

(extracted from https://www.wikiwand.com/fr/Toponymie_normande )

JonikW
08-07-2019, 11:10 PM
... and in Normandy:




(extracted from https://www.wikiwand.com/fr/Toponymie_normande )

I'd like to know more about this. Of course Procopius also mentions that in the sixth century Britons, Angeloi and Frissones were passing in large numbers every year from Britain to Frankish lands.

anglesqueville
08-08-2019, 05:44 AM
I'd like to know more about this. Of course Procopius also mentions that in the sixth century Britons, Angeloi and Frissones were passing in large numbers every year from Britain to Frankish lands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Shore

JonikW
08-08-2019, 07:56 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Shore

Thanks for that. Half a dozen of the forts on the English side are among the most evocative Roman remains to survive IMO but I'm not familiar with the French ones. Movements of both Saxons and fleeing Britons to France is quite a thought. Yet again: no wonder we're all such close populations genetically.

Camulogène Rix
08-08-2019, 08:54 AM
Seninghem, Bayenghem, Boisdelinghem and Bouvelinghem are in the Pas-de-Calais, not in Normandy.
That's the reason why I'm in favour of the Frankish hypothesis regarding those place names. But it's just a detail.

JonikW
08-08-2019, 09:13 AM
Seninghem, Bayenghem, Boisdelinghem and Bouvelinghem are in the Pas-de-Calais, not in Normandy.
That's the reason why I'm in favour of the Frankish hypothesis regarding those place names. But it's just a detail.

They are indeed. Just like some of the Saxon brooches I posted. I first noticed those place names driving around the area with my family when we were struck by how English they looked. I haven't been able to find much about them on the English language web and wrongly guessed at first that they might be some bizarre late Medieval relic.

anglesqueville
08-08-2019, 10:02 AM
Seninghem, Bayenghem, Boisdelinghem and Bouvelinghem are in the Pas-de-Calais, not in Normandy.
That's the reason why I'm in favour of the Frankish hypothesis regarding those place names. But it's just a detail.

With the suffix -ing-hem? I'm highly sceptical about a Frankish origin. For me, those toponyms are rather typical of Saxons of the Boulonnais. See https://www.persee.fr/doc/pica_0752-5656_2009_num_1_1_3155

rms2
08-08-2019, 10:12 AM
No, it was against the visigoths and he lost ans then fled to burgundy....
the only known Saxons in western France are from Bayeux, in the sixth century

No, his campaign began against the Loire Saxons, and was successful, but he allowed himself to be persuaded to aid the Romans against the Visigoths. He was betrayed by the Romans and as a consequence was defeated by the Visigoths.

From Geoffrey Ashe's book, The Discovery of King Arthur, p. 104:



The British-Saxon confrontation north of the Loire began after the migration to Armorica toward 460. It ended with the Saxons' collapse near Angers toward 470. Goeznovius, therefore, puts Arthur's Gallic warfare in the 460s, probably the late 460s when the Loire Saxons were tackled and defeated.

Ashe goes into a lot more detail, but you can read the book for yourself.

fabrice E
08-08-2019, 12:06 PM
No, his campaign began against the Loire Saxons, and was successful, but he allowed himself to be persuaded to aid the Romans against the Visigoths. He was betrayed by the Romans and as a consequence was defeated by the Visigoths.

From Geoffrey Ashe's book, The Discovery of King Arthur, p. 104:



Ashe goes into a lot more detail, but you can read the book for yourself.

Again, no.
It's more or less Fleuriot's thesis, a lot of speculation.

We know Riothame from only two sources : Jordanes, history of the goths and a letter from Sidoine Apolinaire.
Only two facts :
-Riothamus was a king of the Bretons living North of the Loire.
-he lost a battle against the Visigoths (Deols Battle 469)
Nothing more, nothing less.....no saxon here...
yes there were saxons in gauls, most of them raiders, non colony or feodus on the loire valley. Riothamus = Ambrosius Aurelianus ? just a theory, a weak one.
(if you read french, you should read Bernard Merdrignac,"d'une Bretagne à l'autre", a great teacher of historical sources and their uses)

rms2
08-08-2019, 12:31 PM
Again, no . . .

Your opinion.

Ashe cites his sources, but you have not read his book, so you are relatively uninformed.

You should not say no to something with which you are unfamiliar.

ffoucart
08-08-2019, 12:32 PM
Perhaps worth adding here that further north in France we have Anglo-Saxon "-ham" place names such as Seninghem, Bayenghem, Boisdelinghem and Bouvelinghem.

Yes and no.

Yes because Boulonnais and Ponthieu are known to have been settled by Anglo-saxons, and Boulonnais kept an anglo-saxon dialect till the XVth century (at least around Marquise).

No, because you are not using clear anglo-saxon toponyms but rather Frankish ones.

In Boulonnais, the -thun toponyms are clearly anglo-saxon (in GB, you’ll find -ton with the same meaning and origin). Examples: Baincthun, Verlingthun, Colincthun...
Other toponyms in Boulonnais are based on -inghen (Bazinghen, Tardinghen), -dale (Diependale, Quandalle,...), -selle (Haringzelles, Audresselles...), ... are thought to have an anglo-saxon origin.
Toponyms in -gate (Sangatte, Thiegate) or in -flot (Ambleteuse) are probably more scandinavian in origin.

ffoucart
08-08-2019, 12:40 PM
With the suffix -ing-hem? I'm highly sceptical about a Frankish origin. For me, those toponyms are rather typical of Saxons of the Boulonnais. See https://www.persee.fr/doc/pica_0752-5656_2009_num_1_1_3155

You are wrong, pal. Clearly Frankish. Examples: Verlinghem (near Lille), Frelinghien (near Lille), Radinghem (near Armentières), and so on.

Very common in Flanders and the former Flemish-speaking part of Artois.

In Boulonnais, the same gave -inghen, but other toponyms are more clearly anglo-saxons (obviously the -thun ones).

JonikW
08-08-2019, 01:17 PM
Yes and no.

Yes because Boulonnais and Ponthieu are known to have been settled by Anglo-saxons, and Boulonnais kept an anglo-saxon dialect till the XVth century (at least around Marquise).

No, because you are not using clear anglo-saxon toponyms but rather Frankish ones.

In Boulonnais, the -thun toponyms are clearly anglo-saxon (in GB, you’ll find -ton with the same meaning and origin). Examples: Baincthun, Verlingthun, Colincthun...
Other toponyms in Boulonnais are based on -inghen (Bazinghen, Tardinghen), -dale (Diependale, Quandalle,...), -selle (Haringzelles, Audresselles...), ... are thought to have an anglo-saxon origin.
Toponyms in -gate (Sangatte, Thiegate) or in -flot (Ambleteuse) are probably more scandinavian in origin.

But see also the link I posted yesterday from "Language Contact and Development around the North Sea", which similarly points out that -ington place names only exist in England and northern France (in the old world, anyway). And Raventhun, Baincthun and Alincthun are right in among the -inghem names of the Pas-de-Calais (see Map 10). I'd be wary of dismissing that as a coincidence.

fabrice E
08-08-2019, 01:25 PM
Your opinion.

You should not say no to something with which you are unfamiliar.

hum.....with all me respect, I know Brittany history very well ( I am a former archaeologist graduated from the University of Rennes 2....brittany....long ago) I work an the Brittany history since, what ? 35 years ?
but no matter, in history we need fact, only fact = solid historical sources.
My opinion ? my opinion has nothing to do there.
We have only two sources for Riothamus, I gave them, my opinion ? no facts

What you are saying is Fleuriot Theory in his thesis "les origines de la Bretagne" https://www.amazon.fr/Origines-Bretagne-L%C3%A9on-Fleuriot/dp/2228127116 ( I great book, I recommend it)
He talk about the Angers's siege by Eadwacer and his saxons around 463 defeated by childeric (gregoire de Tours chronical) Fleuriot thought that the bretons could be childeric allies but there is no evidence, it' just a theory.
Fact : there were saxons on the Loire valley....but there were "just" raiders, no colony. No archeological evidence, no toponymic evidence, no historical evidence.

By historical sources we know only one possible Saxon settlement in the west: Bayeux

anglesqueville
08-08-2019, 01:34 PM
You are wrong, pal. Clearly Frankish. Examples: Verlinghem (near Lille), Frelinghien (near Lille), Radinghem (near Armentières), and so on.

Very common in Flanders and the former Flemish-speaking part of Artois.

In Boulonnais, the same gave -inghen, but other toponyms are more clearly anglo-saxons (obviously the -thun ones).

Well, seems I wanted to add a pair Saxon toponyms to the little handful you have :biggrin1: . Sorry that it didn't work.

rms2
08-08-2019, 01:39 PM
hum.....with all me respect, I know Brittany history very well ( I am a former archaeologist graduated from the University of Rennes 2....brittany....long ago) I work an the Brittany history since, what ? 35 years ? . . .

I suggest you read Ashe's book. It is pretty well researched and documented.

You waited awhile before expressing any form of respect. Starting posts with an abrupt, rather arrogant "no" isn't likely to win friends.

fabrice E
08-08-2019, 02:49 PM
I suggest you read Ashe's book. It is pretty well researched and documented.

You waited awhile before expressing any form of respect. Starting posts with an abrupt, rather arrogant "no" isn't likely to win friends.

I simply said "No, it was against the visigoths and he lost ans then fled to burgundy...." because that what historical sources said.
Ashes's book is perhaps well researched and documented, he cannot invented new sources.


The British-Saxon confrontation north of the Loire began after the migration to Armorica toward 460. It ended with the Saxons' collapse near Angers toward 470. Goeznovius, therefore, puts Arthur's Gallic warfare in the 460s, probably the late 460s when the Loire Saxons were tackled and defeated.
Legenda Sancti Goeznovii (goeznovius) is a vita probably written in XIIIeme century, probably after Geoffrey of monmouth, not a valid source (probably more than 800 years after the facts !)

I 'll probably read this book, but I suggest you always looking for sources cited by an author, most are on line now, it became very easy.

it is advisable to be always careful with the "Arthurian matter", it is a fantasy box. I did not want to offend your opinion with a brutal "no", just get back to the known facts. I am very new in genetics, not in history.

ffoucart
08-08-2019, 03:37 PM
But see also the link I posted yesterday from "Language Contact and Development around the North Sea", which similarly points out that -ington place names only exist in England and northern France (in the old world, anyway). And Raventhun, Baincthun and Alincthun are right in among the -inghem names of the Pas-de-Calais (see Map 10). I'd be wary of dismissing that as a coincidence.

No. The - thun toponyms are in a more restricted area, in Boulonnais. -Inghem toponyms are far more widely known and are common in both Anglo-saxon and Frankish areas. As I said to Angles, you find many names in French Flanders, like Verlinghem or Radinghem. No mystery since anglo-saxon dialects and Frankish ones were closely related.

JonikW
08-08-2019, 03:58 PM
No. The - thun toponyms are in a more restricted area, in Boulonnais. -Inghem toponyms are far more widely known and are common in both Anglo-saxon and Frankish areas. As I said to Angles, you find many names in French Flanders, like Verlinghem or Radinghem. No mystery since anglo-saxon dialects and Frankish ones were closely related.

32274

32275

Edit: posted the maps but missed off my message... As you know, there's almost always speculation involved in interpreting the exact derivation of these early Germanic names, particularly when there are groups involved who spoke such similar dialects. The first map looks particularly informative given the cluster of names in the nearest area to England, which we've been discussing.

ffoucart
08-08-2019, 04:59 PM
32274

32275

Edit: posted the maps but missed off my message... As you know, there's almost always speculation involved in interpreting the exact derivation of these early Germanic names, particularly when there are groups involved who spoke such similar dialects. The first map looks particularly informative given the cluster of names in the nearest area to England, which we've been discussing.

Belgian Flanders are missing. But toponyms with inga+hem are common in Belgium (Kooigem, Enghien, Izegem, Herfelingen...).

As a said, the point is valid, not the example. Could we move on? The subject is about Bretons, not Saxons.

08-08-2019, 05:22 PM
What about the screenshot of the area around the village of Avalon? Any comments about the names about?

fabrice E
08-08-2019, 06:37 PM
What about the screenshot of the area around the village of Avalon? Any comments about the names about?

absolutely no idea....
we should look in the etymology of Avalon, and look for the oldest mention of this village in particula

JonikW
08-08-2019, 07:00 PM
Belgian Flanders are missing. But toponyms with inga+hem are common in Belgium (Kooigem, Enghien, Izegem, Herfelingen...).

As a said, the point is valid, not the example. Could we move on? The subject is about Bretons, not Saxons.

You haven't demonstrated that the Pas-de-Calais names aren't Saxon. But yes, let's move on and let people decide for themselves if they're interested.
I'd love to know about Avalon too as well as anything on Breton place name parallels with Britain that might reflect sub-Roman population movements. Any tribal examples out there? Cornouaille/Cornwall always looked interesting to me - unless that's Frankish too.;)

Camulogène Rix
08-08-2019, 07:31 PM
What about the screenshot of the area around the village of Avalon? Any comments about the names about?

Avalon in Burgundy?

From PIE *Abol- (apple)

etrusco
08-08-2019, 07:53 PM
Avalon in Burgundy?

From PIE *Abol- (apple)

Avalon is from celtic. The root is the second word for water in PIE *ab . The other is the one that is ancestral to germanic water ( slavic voda)

English river name, from Celtic abona "river," from *ab- "water" (see afanc). Of the at least four rivers in England and two in Scotland that bear the name, Shakespeare's is the Warwickshire Avon.

08-08-2019, 08:00 PM
Avalon in Burgundy?

From PIE *Abol- (apple)

Yeah, I understand the etymology of the word, yeah that Avallon, in Burgundy seems to have a correlation with Riothamus, but what about the other Avalon in France further south, there are some odd names in that area, could it be this Avalon that Riothamus took refuge?

ffoucart
08-08-2019, 08:20 PM
You haven't demonstrated that the Pas-de-Calais names aren't Saxon. But yes, let's move on and let people decide for themselves if they're interested.
I'd love to know about Avalon too as well as anything on Breton place name parallels with Britain that might reflect sub-Roman population movements. Any tribal examples out there? Cornouaille/Cornwall always looked interesting to me - unless that's Frankish too.;)
I have written numerous posts on Anglo-saxon settlements in Boulonnais and Ponthieu (Western Pas de Calais), to have something to add. The fact is toponyms in -inghem are not specific to Anglo-saxons. Mind that I have a personal interest on the subject, as 1/4 of my recent ancestors were from Boulonnais.

I was rather skeptical about massive migration from the Isles in Armorique, but it seems I was wrong. One of the difficulty is to date those admixture events. The Jacobites impact in Britanny remains to be quantified and could be locally significant (as a matter of fact, the father of one of my ancestors near Brest could have been an « Hirois », as his name is known to have been a deformation of Sullivan in several cases).

There are several « Avalon » in France, from Dauphiné (in Graisivaudan), to Burgundy (near Vezelay). It seems connected to aballo (Apple).

rms2
08-08-2019, 10:37 PM
I simply said "No, it was against the visigoths and he lost ans then fled to burgundy...." because that what historical sources said.
Ashes's book is perhaps well researched and documented, he cannot invented new sources.

He can interpret them differently than you do, and perhaps more ably.



Legenda Sancti Goeznovii (goeznovius) is a vita probably written in XIIIeme century, probably after Geoffrey of monmouth, not a valid source (probably more than 800 years after the facts !)

Read the book.



I 'll probably read this book, but I suggest you always looking for sources cited by an author, most are on line now, it became very easy.

I read Ashe's book. You haven't. Your turn to read.



it is advisable to be always careful with the "Arthurian matter", it is a fantasy box. I did not want to offend your opinion with a brutal "no", just get back to the known facts. I am very new in genetics, not in history.

I'm not new to history either, having graduated with honors in it as my major.

Read Ashe's book. He is well respected.

Scaperbzh
08-08-2019, 11:28 PM
I'd love to know about Avalon too as well as anything on Breton place name parallels with Britain that might reflect sub-Roman population movements. Any tribal examples out there? Cornouaille/Cornwall always looked interesting to me - unless that's Frankish too.;)

Aside from Cornouaille/Kernev, there was an early Breton kingdom called Domnonée in the north, probably to be linked to the British Dumnonii. Brittany is also littered with places named after British (sometimes even Irish) saints migrating from across the Channel. Probably every village has its own legendary breton saint, for instance Langonnet/Langoned from Lann-Conet, Monastery of Conet.

JonikW
08-08-2019, 11:41 PM
Aside from Cornouaille/Kernev, there was a early Breton kingdom called Domnonée in the north, probably to be linked to the British Dumnonii. Brittany is also littered with places named after British (sometimes even Irish) saints migrating from across the Channel. Probably every village has its own legendary breton saint, for instance Langonnet/Langoned from Lann-Conet, Monastery of Conet.

The movements of those saints backwards and forwards between the Isles and Brittany are fascinating and really illustrate the old adage that the sea was the highway of the day. Llan in Welsh was originally a sacred enclosure where a church then came to be founded bearing the saint's name. I don't know whether Lan has a different connotation in Breton though.

Scaperbzh
08-09-2019, 12:23 AM
The movements of those saints backwards and forwards between the Isles and Brittany are fascinating and really illustrate the old adage that the sea was the highway of the day. Llan in Welsh was originally a sacred enclosure where a church then came to be founded bearing the saint's name. I don't know whether Lan has a different connotation in Breton though.

It really is fascinating! I unfortunately don't speak Breton but my understanding is that Lann is very much similar to Llan. What's interesting is the predominance of these saints in Breton toponymy (I'm not sure if that's also the case for Wales/Cornwall). Granted, most of them have no historical backing whatsoever, but it does make me wonder about the importance of religion in regard to the Breton migrations. From my very limited research, sources point to a rather military phenomenon with troop settlements from Roman Britain. I'm sure several people here are more knowledgeable about this though.

ffoucart
08-09-2019, 06:53 AM
The movements of those saints backwards and forwards between the Isles and Brittany are fascinating and really illustrate the old adage that the sea was the highway of the day. Llan in Welsh was originally a sacred enclosure where a church then came to be founded bearing the saint's name. I don't know whether Lan has a different connotation in Breton though.


Lan in Landivisiau, Landévennec... has indeed a similar meaning (sacred place of Saint...).

08-09-2019, 08:30 AM
It really is fascinating! I unfortunately don't speak Breton but my understanding is that Lann is very much similar to Llan. What's interesting is the predominance of these saints in Breton toponymy (I'm not sure if that's also the case for Wales/Cornwall). Granted, most of them have no historical backing whatsoever, but it does make me wonder about the importance of religion in regard to the Breton migrations. From my very limited research, sources point to a rather military phenomenon with troop settlements from Roman Britain. I'm sure several people here are more knowledgeable about this though.

The few books I have read on the subject, split the major emigration into 3, beginning with Military, then planned settlement, then those refugees fleeing their Saxon foe.
This books as I recall was a fantastic read by John Morris - The age of Arthur.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Age-Arthur-History-British-350-650/dp/0297176013/ref=sr_1_1?crid=51N4CHPEQ9XK&keywords=the+age+of+arthur+john+morris&qid=1565344258&s=gateway&sprefix=The+age+of+art%2Caps%2C142&sr=8-1

Camulogène Rix
08-09-2019, 10:51 AM
Yeah, I understand the etymology of the word, yeah that Avallon, in Burgundy seems to have a correlation with Riothamus, but what about the other Avalon in France further south, there are some odd names in that area, could it be this Avalon that Riothamus took refuge?

Marylin Floyde has written a book (in English) on this subject:
https://www.livraddict.com/biblio/livre/sur-les-traces-du-roi-arthur-avallon-en-bourgogne.html

I read it a long time ago: rather exciting but I'm not sure that some comparisons between King Arthur and Riothamus be really serious.

Trelvern
08-09-2019, 11:20 AM
The movements of those saints backwards and forwards between the Isles and Brittany are fascinating and really illustrate the old adage that the sea was the highway of the day. Llan in Welsh was originally a sacred enclosure where a church then came to be founded bearing the saint's name. I don't know whether Lan has a different connotation in Breton though.


Lan.

"The prefix lan corresponds to Cornish Lan and to Welsh Llan, both used as names of churches. The Welsh Llan now may be used as a common noun meaning the parish church, and sometimes even the settlement around it. Yet the name predates the parish organization and appears to be, in all Brythonic lands, the prime and main word for an ecclesiastical foundation, for a place of worship. Lan, in place-names, is sometimes followed by an adjective (e.g., Bret Lanmeur, Welsh Llanfor, the great Lan), but more often by the name of a "saint". Some are found both in Wales and in Brittany (Bret Langolen, Welsh Llangollen; Bret Laniltud, Welsh Llanilltyd). In Brittany there is no Lan name including the name of Christ, of Mary, or of Michael, contrary to the situation in Wales, where the last two-Llanfair (from -Mair 'Mary') and Llanfihangel (from Llan Archangel Michael)-are numerously attested. In Brittany the names of the saints commemorated in the Lan names are usually old British ones. The scattering of the Llan names therefore appears to reflect the most ancient scattering of Celtic churches there."



Breton Settlement Names: A Geographical View Pierre Flatrès

cerseilannister
08-09-2019, 11:25 AM
Could be right, and R1b-L2 is definitely found in Bretagne, though R1b-L21 is more common.

FTDNA has a Bretagne DNA Project you can join. I used to be the admin of it, but now it's run by a couple of actual Bretons.

Thanks! here's a bit more details on other test results (I posted a map in the Breizh thread)

I am according to 23andme.
Haplogroup R-L2

23andMe Results:
46% European (break down as below)
19% France and German (with France as likely)
7.5% British isles
7.2% Broadly NW European
2% Italian
3% Broadly S European
6.5% Broadly European
2.6% unassigned

MyHeritage
33.7% Irish Scottish Welsh
7.2% NW European
9.1% Iberian

Admixture Studio Results:

Tolan Recent Ancestors Bretage -
20% Bretagne
8% British-Irish
7% Benelux
4% Normandie
3% South Germany
3% North Africa
less 1% France, central Europe, Scandinavia, North Italia

Tolan Recent Ancestors More Precise -
28.22% British and Irish
12.17% South Germany
3.6% North Africa
1.8% Benelux
1.29 % France

Eurogenes 13
24.41% North Atlantic
11.08% Baltic
5.21% West Med
4.72% East Med
3.3% Red Sea
0.98% Sub-Saharan
and under mixed mode the ranking of choices: 49% SE English, 50% SE English, 51% South Dutch, 52% South Dutch, 50% South Dutch, 51% West German

Eurogenes K36
10.27 italian
9.75 Central Euro
8.52 North Sea
8.38 North Atlantic
3.9 North African
2.51 Eastern Euro
2.26 Fennoscanadian
2.15 Iberian
1.07 East Balkan
0.53 East Central Euro
0.35 French
0.19 Volga-Ural
0.17 west caucasian
0.05 north caucasian

and a map

HarappaWorld
22.56 NE Euro
16.48 Mediterranean
3.86 Caucasian
0.22% W African
0.03 East African
and top 3 results: 50% French, 49% French, 49% Utahn-White

MDLP World K33
32% West European
5.8% South European
3.75% Central European
2.3% Noth African
1.35% Caucasian
1.2 Nearest
1% East European
1$ British
0.% Balkan

Dodecad K12b
19.63 North European
17.13 atlantic med
3.97 cacasus
2.9 northwest african
top 5 results: 50% mixed Germanic D, 49% mixed germanic D, 49% Dutch D, 50% Dutch D, 51% French D

DNA.Land
41 Nw European
4.9 South/Central euro
5.5 N.African

Tolan K71
22.6 Netherlands
11.44 Armorica
3.29 N.Africa
2.94 SW England
1.83 Tyrol Ausria
1.28 Cotenin
0.97 Orcadia
0.75 Belgium
0.32 N. Germany
0.26 S. Germany
0.25 W. Brittany
etc (tons of tiny ones)

Lukasz K47
11.87 Celtic
6.8 North IBerian
6 west finnic
5.15 Volgan
4.28 north sea germanic
3.48 scando germanic
3.43 paleo balkan
Top 5 estimates. 49% French west, 50 French west, 51 French, 49 French, 48 Orcadian

08-09-2019, 11:54 AM
The movements of those saints backwards and forwards between the Isles and Brittany are fascinating and really illustrate the old adage that the sea was the highway of the day. Llan in Welsh was originally a sacred enclosure where a church then came to be founded bearing the saint's name. I don't know whether Lan has a different connotation in Breton though.

From what I understand about etymology of “Llan”, the extra L, or the letter”LL” in Welsh is not ancient and might... I.e It might not have existed at the time of the emigration, so maybe the Breton “Lan” might be purer.

Webb
08-09-2019, 12:44 PM
absolutely no idea....
we should look in the etymology of Avalon, and look for the oldest mention of this village in particula

Fabrice, what are your thoughts on your own branch of DF27? It is an interesting cluster because it includes Douglas, Sutherland, and Murray. These three clans are thought to be descended from Freskyn of Moray, however, according to Ytree, the Douglas cluster was formed around 425BCE and is parallel to the Sutherland cluster.

fabrice E
08-09-2019, 02:08 PM
I just know that we are very few with this Haplo, am I the only French ?
Freskyn of Moray, according to wiki, is flemish, is that right ?

Webb
08-09-2019, 03:03 PM
I just know that we are very few with this Haplo, am I the only French ?
Freskyn of Moray, according to wiki, is flemish, is that right ?

I will post a link to a paper based on the research of Alexandrina Murray. It is a very good article and there is only circumstantial evidence he was Flemish. He was actually from Pembroke and his father was also from Pembroke. They were given land in Scotland for serving David I. She explains that they were living among the Flemish settlers given land in Pembroke by Henry I, but whether they were Flemish themselves is not proven.

http://flemish.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/files/2016/02/Alexandrina_Murray_Blog_Final_2_V5_26_2_16-1.pdf

08-09-2019, 03:33 PM
I will post a link to a paper based on the research of Alexandrina Murray. It is a very good article and there is only circumstantial evidence he was Flemish. He was actually from Pembroke and his father was also from Pembroke. They were given land in Scotland for serving David I. She explains that they were living among the Flemish settlers given land in Pembroke by Henry I, but whether they were Flemish themselves is not proven.

http://flemish.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/files/2016/02/Alexandrina_Murray_Blog_Final_2_V5_26_2_16-1.pdf

Just some additional information about the Flemish in South Pembrokeshire, it is also worth noting that even before the flemish, allot of the place names and Islands about, had Norse names, so these places were already quite diverse from Viking times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsker_Line

Ralex004
08-20-2019, 12:34 AM
I believe the Saxons raided and settled in NW France.

So how much of Breton ancestry would you call "Germanic"? How do you think that might sway the interpretation of the FRA14 cluster of the PoBI study?

rms2
08-20-2019, 12:22 PM
So how much of Breton ancestry would you call "Germanic"? How do you think that might sway the interpretation of the FRA14 cluster of the PoBI study?

I don't know, honestly.

Probably not a lot, but I'm only guessing. Have there been any genome-wide studies of Bretons?

anglesqueville
08-20-2019, 04:21 PM
I don't know, honestly.

Probably not a lot, but I'm only guessing. Have there been any genome-wide studies of Bretons?

In my opinion, there is no entirely reliable GW study of Bretons. But if I had to guess I would be a bit embarrassed. Firstly I don't know exactly what means "Germanic ancestry", but let's go for a rough and intuitive meaning, something like "that ancestry inherited from the Germanic-speaking groups of the Late-Bronze/Iron Ages". I think you will agree that this ancestry is massively present nowadays in England and Germany (for example). Now, a little experiment. FabriceE has gathered a sample of people of asserted Breton genealogy, who have got their components for Eurogenes' G25. I ran this weekend this sample with, as the source sample, all the Iron-Age individuals, in the new Vahaduo Monte-Carlo tool, adding to the target sample the English (including Cornwall) and the German samples from the G25 reference (unscaled). I ran a PCA on the resulting csv (variances: PC1=56% PC2=17%). Here is a representation of the PC1-PC2:

32576

Your thoughts? I make it clear that I have no horse in the race: my French lines are all Normand (Bretons' hereditary enemy... )

anglesqueville
08-20-2019, 05:06 PM
In case you would be sceptical about a sample gathered by an amateur, I found it interesting to make the same job with the "French_Brittany" sample (from the harvardian HumanOrigins Data basis). Here is the Pc1-PC2 representation (same colours, roughly the same variances).

32578

moesan
08-20-2019, 05:48 PM
interesting, Anglesqueville -
even if comparisons between samples of different dates could be partly inaccurate, I think ancient Anglo-Saxons would be useful in comparisons like these, spite modern pops are already very indicative - always speaking of modern pops, today Germans are 1) Germanics - 2) Celts - 3) Slavs, in some way - a sample made of only N-W Germans would be even more representative and I think the differences would be even bigger (or more neat)- recent papers have been released about France, Bretons in the game? whatever the precision of these surveys - I'm sure you have read the Bernard Sécher's blog -

moesan
08-20-2019, 05:50 PM
juste un extrait de son blog
jeudi 8 août 2019
Le paysage génétique de la France

Par Bernard Sécher le jeudi 8 août 2019, 19:33 - Génétique des populations

Située au centre de l'Europe occidentale, la France est un pont entre l'Europe du Nord et les espaces Méditerranéen et Ibérique. Cette position a fortement affecté l'histoire démographique de son territoire attestée par les nombreux peuples et cultures qui s'y installèrent: Grecs, Romains, Celtes, Germains, Musulmans, Magyars et Vikings. A la lumière de ce passé complexe, peu d'études génétiques de la France ont été réalisées. Une étude mitochondriale a été réalisée en 2007 par Richard et une étude autosomale a été réalisée sur l'ouest de la France en 2015 par Karakachoff.

Simone Andrea Biagini et ses collègues viennent de publier un papier intitulé: Reshaping the Hexagone: the genetic landscape of modern France. Ils ont testé le génome de 331 individus de différents départements de la France, dont seulement 276 ont donné des résultats. Les auteurs ont utilisé également 79 échantillons supplémentaires d'une étude préalablement publiée en 2016 par Lazaridis et al., et 60 échantillons non encore publiés localisés dans le pays Basque et la région Franco-Cantabre. Cependant 20 individus considérés comme des outliers ont été écartés, conduisant à un total de 395 échantillons utilisés pour cette étude, répartis sur 20 départements. Dans la figure ci-dessous les points bleus correspondent aux échantillons testés dans le cadre de cette étude, les points jaunes aux échantillons de l'étude de Lazaridis et les points rouges aux échantillons non publiés:
2019_Biagini2_Figure1.jpg

Pour des besoins de comparaison avec les populations voisines, les auteurs ont utilisé 218 échantillons d'Allemagne, de Norvège, d'Espagne, d'Italie, d'Angleterre, d'Irlande et d’Écosse, ainsi que 107 échantillons supplémentaires d'Espagne et 8 échantillons supplémentaires d'Italie.

Les auteurs ont réalisé une Analyse en Composantes Principales avec les échantillons Français (Figure A ci-dessous). La première composante sépare deux groupes principaux constitués par les échantillons Basques (en noir à droite) d'une part et les autres échantillons (à gauche) d'autre part, reliés par un pont formé par les échantillons de la région Franco-Cantabre en orange:
2019_Biagini2_Figure2.jpg

Dans la figure B, les auteurs ont supprimé les échantillons Basques et Franco-Cantabres. Dans cette figure les échantillons de la région Bretagne (en rouge à gauche) se séparent des autres.
... (les images ne sont pasées).

Trelvern
08-20-2019, 06:20 PM
@moesan

"(les images ne sont pasées)."

manage attachments:

control panel/attachments/deleted

anglesqueville
08-21-2019, 08:20 AM
Moesan, I don't understand exactly what is your point with Biagini (a poor undergraduate-like study, if you want my opinion).
I published the PCAs of my two previous posts (with archaeological references and Vahaduo) because I had them on hand. But any study would lead to the same observation. For example, I found again a PCA traced months ago directly from G25 (so without the filter of any choice of old references), with the cluster French_Brittany (and three individuals unrelated to the Breton topic: my parents and me), the English and the German. Just have a look (PC1-PC2 and PC2-PC3):

32587
32588

My conclusion? Do the Bretons have a lot of "germanic ancestry" (whatever that means)? I will give a Normand answer: perhaps yes, perhaps no. Not easy to guess, as soon as one lets aside the old traditional and pseudo-scientific bias.

Dewsloth
08-21-2019, 01:31 PM
I wonder how Belgium and/or French East group on the above plot?