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Jon
08-30-2016, 10:33 AM
Hi Guys,

I was wondering if there any thoughts on links between Ireland and Scotland, especially with DNA. Some clades are clearly shared, like M222, some more exclusive to each country, but in L21 and some of the bigger subclades (like DF21 or L513) there is a clearly shared origin. Does this represent the Gaels? I know some people have issues with the term 'celtic' (I do not), but how do we define this shared ancestry?

Very interesting sub-forum, by the way ;)

Jon

fridurich
08-31-2016, 05:15 AM
Hi Guys,

I was wondering if there any thoughts on links between Ireland and Scotland, especially with DNA. Some clades are clearly shared, like M222, some more exclusive to each country, but in L21 and some of the bigger subclades (like DF21 or L513) there is a clearly shared origin. Does this represent the Gaels? I know some people have issues with the term 'celtic' (I do not), but how do we define this shared ancestry?

Very interesting sub-forum, by the way ;)

Jon

Very interesting topic Jon. If you go to page 8 of the thread that talks about the Irish DNA Atlas, you will see a graphic https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ae/13/2a/ae132ae80e5b17ed3526cfbdcf8ce89a.jpg that shows that the Irish population, in general, is closest autosomal wise to the Scottish population, in general. The Irish, in general, being closer genetically to Scotland than to England or wales. However if you look at the cluster that has Northern Ireland, it is somewhat different. Seems like parts of that cluster have a closer affinity to England or maybe the border region.

YDNA wise, out of M222 if you look at Kennedy's M222 chart http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf and you are good at picking out Irish names from Scottish ones, (Be warned some surnames are indigenous to Ireland and Scotland.) you can look at the subclade of M222 called DF97 and see quite a number of Irish and Scottish names. If you look at subclade DF85, you see quite a number of Irish and Scottish names. Subclade A259 or A260 appears to have Irish and Scottish names. Subclade S588 and the subclade S603 which is one snp downstream of S588 both appear to have a mix of Irish and Scottish names. There seem to be a lot of M222 men in Southwest Scotland (around Galloway, Ayr, etc.), but there are other places in Scotland where you will find it also.

Many times Irish names have been anglicized to where they may actually look English. Looking at a downstream snp of S603 called BY3347 you have an O'Hair (my O'Hair cousin), a Hare, a Smith (originally McGowan maybe?), a Morrison, and two Ewings. The O'Hair and Hare are Irish. There was a big push by the English to get the Irish to drop their Gaelic surnames and culture. That is one reason why a lot of Irish surnames dropped the O' or Mac, or became even more transformed. In By3347, you also have the Ewings and Morrison that seem to come from Scottish backgrounds. I don't know the ethnic background of the Smith.

You have the chiefly family of the Monroes of Foulis who appear to share a common ancestor with some of the O'Driscolls/Driscolls of Cork, Ireland. http://www.electricscotland.com/familytree/newsletters/munro/MunroDec2015.pdf The haplogroup of the O'Driscolls here is kind of a surprise to me, it is not one of the expected R1B variety, but a subdivision of I, but not the I subclade the Vikings had. This I subdivison seems to be common in parts of western Ireland.

Then you have the haplogroup Z255. If I remember right, there were Irish Byrnes, or O'Byrnes and other Irish families that were z255 and the Beatty border reiver family, not terribly far from the Scottish and English border were also Z255.

I think there are other Irish YDNA haplogroups that also appear in Scotland, but I can't remember which ones they were.

Also, it seems like there may be mitochondrial DNA haplogroups that are in both Ireland and Scotland.

As far as the term Gael, I think even if it originally denoted one tribal group, that over time, at least several different YDNA haplogroups would have to be called Gaelic. They spoke Gaelic, had Gaelic culture, and members of the different Y haplogroups must have intermarried to some extant with members of other Y haplogroups, it adding up over the centuries. So way back in that period of time a Df41, DF21, Z255, one of the I haplogroup subdivisions (except for maybe the Viking one) or other haplogroups could be considered just as Gaelic, and would be just as Gaelic as the M222 men.

I welcome anyone else to contribute here.

Jon
08-31-2016, 11:01 AM
Thanks Fridurich, very helpful.

The SW of Scotland really seems to be the big melting pot DNA-wise. I mean it's clear that in the north east there's going to be old Pictish lines, and further north more Norse DNA as well. The western isles clearly show a commonality with Ireland, but the SW borders are tricky - historically, there were Britons, Gaels, Picts (I think) and Anglians, as well as even Vikings down there. I totally agree that any one group (e.g. Gaels) will have had many different HG's amongst them.

The graphic from the Irish DNA Atlas is interesting. Ireland seems to overlap (slightly) with Scotland, but then western Scotland and Northern Ireland seems to essentially be one and the same. This makes sense given the closeness of the regions.

Sorry to keep going on about my own HG (!), but L513 still seems to be tricky to pin down. From what I've read and heard though, it is most frequent in Scotland and Ireland (especially western Scotland and northern Ireland!), so could well represent some of this ancient traffic between the two regions.

fridurich
09-04-2016, 04:50 AM
Thanks Fridurich, very helpful.

The SW of Scotland really seems to be the big melting pot DNA-wise. I mean it's clear that in the north east there's going to be old Pictish lines, and further north more Norse DNA as well. The western isles clearly show a commonality with Ireland, but the SW borders are tricky - historically, there were Britons, Gaels, Picts (I think) and Anglians, as well as even Vikings down there. I totally agree that any one group (e.g. Gaels) will have had many different HG's amongst them.

The graphic from the Irish DNA Atlas is interesting. Ireland seems to overlap (slightly) with Scotland, but then western Scotland and Northern Ireland seems to essentially be one and the same. This makes sense given the closeness of the regions.

Sorry to keep going on about my own HG (!), but L513 still seems to be tricky to pin down. From what I've read and heard though, it is most frequent in Scotland and Ireland (especially western Scotland and northern Ireland!), so could well represent some of this ancient traffic between the two regions.

Jon, sorry I don't know too much about L513. Concerning the graphic I showed from the Irish DNA Atlas, what they call W. Scotland is part of what the POBI (People of the British Isles Study) called N. Ireland/South Scotland (this is what the POBI study called the Planters who came to Ulster starting around 1608 or before). http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/02/a-genetic-map-of-british-population.html However, when the Irish DNA Study mentions W. Scotland, they are talking about the Planters, and not the Western Isles of Scotland and the Highlands. As you may know the Planters consisted mainly of people from Southwestern Scotland and northern England. However, I believe almost all shires of Scotland supplied some Planters.

I hope some others on this forum can help you with L513.

fridurich
01-09-2017, 02:36 AM
Speaking of Irish-Scottish links. The chiefly Forbes family of Aberdeenshire, Scotland has a tradition that their ancestor came from Ireland and his name was something like Chonocar (Connor?). This tradition must have been pretty strong, because one of the chiefly branches bore the surname Ochonocar (or something similar) along with his Forbes surname, into the 18th century. Ochonocar sure looks a lot like O'Connor. The Forbes also have a tradition of being related to the Urquharts and McKays.

I have seen on familytreedna.com on the Urquhart DNA project where one of the Urquharts was M-222. It would be nice if this Urquhart could go ahead and find out what SNP below M222 he sits on. There aren't a multitude of Urquharts who tested. None of the Forbes show M222, but then again, none may have tested that far. Seems like there are a lot of Forbes and Urquharts who are R-M269, which is too general to see how they are related.

So, it would be great if some of the chiefly Forbes, and more of the Urquharts would YDNA test, and if they are M222, then see which subclade of M222 they are. Also, if they are related, it may not even be through haplogroup M222, even though one of the Urquharts is. Comparing those to McKay DNA would be another step.

Nibelung
01-09-2017, 07:38 PM
In the personal life section for Duald_Mac_Firbis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubhaltach_Mac_Fhirbhisigh) you'll find there are some descendants of his family living in Ireland, but who now go by Forbes (unless of course they've forgotten they're actually from Scotland).

kevinduffy
01-10-2017, 02:13 AM
The haplogroup of the O'Driscolls here is kind of a surprise to me, it is not one of the expected R1B variety, but a subdivision of I, but not the I subclade the Vikings had. This I subdivison seems to be common in parts of western Ireland.

I wonder if this version of haplogroup I was brought to Ireland by farmers from the Middle East?

Gravetto-Danubian
01-10-2017, 02:18 AM
I wonder if this version of haplogroup I was brought to Ireland by farmers from the Middle East?

Hg I isn't from the Middle East. Its been in Europe since the Gravettian (c. 35000 y.a.)
If the O'Driscolls hg I isn't the "Viking" one (ie. I1), then its most likely I2a2, which could have arrived to UK & Ireland any time between the Neolithic and historic periods from adjacent NW Europe. But it also could be I2a1b (M423 L161), which could be Mesolithic.
Even an STR test should be able to distinguish between these 3 haplogroups.

ADD: seeing the above linked PDF, they are L161. This could have been in the Isles since the Late Upper Palaeolithic (eg. Creswellian, Sponge Hill industries, etc) for all we know.(!)

fridurich
01-11-2017, 03:47 AM
In the personal life section for Duald_Mac_Firbis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubhaltach_Mac_Fhirbhisigh) you'll find there are some descendants of his family living in Ireland, but who now go by Forbes (unless of course they've forgotten they're actually from Scotland).

Thank you Nibelung. I have heard of Duald McFirbis before. Also, I have heard that some of the Irish McFirbis' changed their name to Forbes. Even without the Mc in front, the Irish Forbes name not terribly unrecognizable from an origin as McFirbis. I think above you must mean unless of course they have forgotten they are actually from Ireland.

Nibelung
01-11-2017, 03:55 AM
I take your point. It could be some zig zag multi-dimensional quantum event we won't be able to make sense of for another thousand years.

fridurich
01-11-2017, 03:58 AM
Hg I isn't from the Middle East. Its been in Europe since the Gravettian (c. 35000 y.a.)
If the O'Driscolls hg I isn't the "Viking" one (ie. I1), then its most likely I2a2, which could have arrived to UK & Ireland any time between the Neolithic and historic periods from adjacent NW Europe. But it also could be I2a1b (M423 L161), which could be Mesolithic.
Even an STR test should be able to distinguish between these 3 haplogroups.

ADD: seeing the above linked PDF, they are L161. This could have been in the Isles since the Late Upper Palaeolithic (eg. Creswellian, Sponge Hill industries, etc) for all we know.(!)

Yes, the Foulis Monroes and these particular O'Driscolls of Cork (O'Driscoll like many Irish surnames has multiple origins) are I2a-L161. These O'Driscolls and the Monroes also share a downstream SNP of that called PF4135. I think you may have found the link to http://www.electricscotland.com/familytree/newsletters/munro/MunroDec2015.pdf where it mentions the haplogroups and also shows a frequency map for I2a-L161, and there is an area in Western Ireland where there is a lot of I2a-L161, but other areas of Ireland have it too.

fridurich
01-11-2017, 04:02 AM
I wonder if this version of haplogroup I was brought to Ireland by farmers from the Middle East?

Thanks, kevinduffy. See my reply to Gravetto-Danubian.