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MikeWhalen
08-31-2016, 11:28 AM
you dont hear about this too often, but it can and does happen for sure...these hunters noted that the attacking wolves were not fully mature and looked malnourished... like they said, its not the humans environment up there and you cant take anything for granted

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/hunters-fend-off-wolves-dog-110000020.html

a story from 2010
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/13/nation/la-na-wolf-attack13-2010mar13

and finally, I saw a documentary on this case...listening to the guys who went looking for the student and the eyes they saw staring back at them in the night around the body was literally chilling...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kenton_Joel_Carnegie


as a small note...I have always loved wolves and certainly do not believe they should be hunted to extinction or have a bounty put on them like the bad old days....to not make too broad a point, my name is an anglicized version from old Irish, meaning wolf or son of the wolf

Mike

Lirio100
08-31-2016, 11:46 AM
"These are wild animals" is the key phrase.
http://www.torontosun.com/2016/08/29/tourists-shamed-for-bad-behaviour-in-national-parks

An awful lot of people don't seem to understand that.
I blame Disney....:\

Amerijoe
08-31-2016, 05:38 PM
Nothing worst than seeing your wife's dog in a coyote's mouth. My wife screamed so loud that coyote dropped the dog and ran like hell. It's been told coyotes will use females in heat to attract domestic dogs. Wow, what a bummer.

Captain Nordic
08-31-2016, 08:17 PM
Nothing worst than seeing your wife's dog in a coyote's mouth. My wife screamed so loud that coyote dropped the dog and ran like hell. It's been told coyotes will use females in heat to attract domestic dogs. Wow, what a bummer.

Did the dog survive...?

JMcB
09-23-2017, 08:36 PM
More Wolves:

Ten Attacks in Four Months: Brazen Wolves Preying on Children in Israel's South

Scientists say wolves acclimating themselves to humans, but Nature and Parks Authority says people feeding wolves is source of problem

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.813362

With a video at the end showing a wolf hunting down a mountain goat.

Agamemnon
09-23-2017, 09:03 PM
More Wolves:

Ten Attacks in Four Months: Brazen Wolves Preying on Children in Israel's South

Scientists say wolves acclimating themselves to humans, but Nature and Parks Authority says people feeding wolves is source of problem

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.813362

With a video at the end showing a wolf hunting down a mountain goat.

Arabian wolves are often mixed with Canaan dogs, and so they usually do not fear humans.

geebee
09-24-2017, 03:59 AM
I, too, like wolves, but it's actually unfair not to recognize them for the wild animals they are. However, in the U.S. I think coyotes (the canid kind) are more of a problem than wolves. Of course, habitat destruction is typically part of the cause. Coyotes are very adaptable, though, and can be okay with coming right into human-inhabited areas. This is less true of most wolves, but starvation produces powerful incentive to overcome fear.

My favorite wolf is still the dog, and I have three. Yet under the right (or wrong) conditions, even dogs can be dangerous. (And I'm sure they kill or injure a lot more people than wild wolves.)

rms2
09-24-2017, 12:53 PM
Here's an interesting paper that was mentioned recently by the Bell Beaker blogger: The Wolf Threat in France from the Middle Ages to the Twentieth Century (https://tinyurl.com/y9eum9fc), by Jean-Marc Moriceau.

From the paper:



“Marie, aged approximately 7 years, daughter of Jacques Prudent and his first wife, Tiennette Maroyer, was snatched from her doorway by a wolf and devoured in a field. Only her head, one arm and her stomach were found, and nothing besides. These pitiful remains were buried in the cemetery of this church the following day, fifth October, before my entire parish, who had gathered for Sunday Mass.”

- Parish registers of La Chapelle-Thècle (Saône-et-Loire), 8 October 1749. (Archives of the French administrative department of the Saône-et-Loire, online civil registry, La Chapelle-Thècle, Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1743-1752, image 66).

MikeWhalen
09-24-2017, 01:03 PM
rms-the site you linked is down
:(

Mike

ps-I remember there was a fairly good movie some years ago about a 'werewolf' attack in France back in the 1700's I think...a series of 'wolf' attacks were so bad in one area that the King had to get involved and send a royal hunter to sort it out...of course it was real wolves behind it and a good reminder to us that they aint just big cute dogs

rms2
09-24-2017, 01:24 PM
rms-the site you linked is down
:(

Mike

ps-I remember there was a fairly good movie some years ago about a 'werewolf' attack in France back in the 1700's I think...a series of 'wolf' attacks were so bad in one area that the King had to get involved and send a royal hunter to sort it out...of course it was real wolves behind it and a good reminder to us that they aint just big cute dogs

Looks like the site being down is just temporary. It will probably be back up soon. That paper is worth checking out. Glad I included a quote from it.

JMcB
09-24-2017, 03:22 PM
Looks like the site being down is just temporary. It will probably be back up soon. That paper is worth checking out. Glad I included a quote from it.

It worked for me, I'm reading it now.

spruithean
09-24-2017, 06:11 PM
Nothing worst than seeing your wife's dog in a coyote's mouth. My wife screamed so loud that coyote dropped the dog and ran like hell. It's been told coyotes will use females in heat to attract domestic dogs. Wow, what a bummer.

That and peoples cats encountering coyotes.

Where I live there are coyotes and a fair amount of feral/semi-feral cats; who seem to be the offspring of barn cats, every once in awhile I hear coyotes and cats around the same time I assume it's a cat trying to fight off the coyotes. I try not to think about who comes out alive...

rms2
09-24-2017, 06:24 PM
Where I live coyotes regularly eat cats that wander around at night. If I had a cat, I would keep him or her cooped up in the house, especially at night.

We also have quite a few foxes around. I sometimes see them early in the morning when I am on my way to the train station to commute to work. I usually make that trip around 0400, when it's still dark. It wouldn't surprise me if the foxes also nab a cat or two when the opportunity presents itself.

spruithean
09-24-2017, 10:55 PM
Where I live coyotes regularly eat cats that wander around at night. If I had a cat, I would keep him or her cooped up in the house, especially at night.

We also have quite a few foxes around. I sometimes see them early in the morning when I am on my way to the train station to commute to work. I usually make that trip around 0400, when it's still dark. It wouldn't surprise me if the foxes also nab a cat or two when the opportunity presents itself.

Huh, there are also foxes in my area too. There is actually a den in the field just outside. I'm sure there have been some feline and canid standoffs out there!

Finn
09-28-2017, 06:31 PM
Wow after the wolves were extinct in the Netherlands (last one killed in 1869 in the Deep South, but mostly already extinct in the 18th century), the last years they are back in my neighborhood, probably from groups in NW Germny. I guess that in a dense country like the Netherlands this means more risk of confrontations!?

kostoffj
09-28-2017, 07:03 PM
Wow after the wolves were extinct in the Netherlands (last one killed in 1869 in the Deep South, but mostly already extinct in the 18th century), the last years they are back in my neighborhood, probably from groups in NW Germny. I guess that in a dense country like the Netherlands this means more risk of confrontations!?

Yes that is certain. Wolves are shy of people for good reasons, but look out pets and livestock. Though if a person stumbled upon a wolf at the wrong time and wrong place, he or she could well be attacked. Though usually they'd flee.

We have increasing problems with encroachment in the US and in some places, encroaching species are losing their fear of humans, due in part to draconian overreaction on culling the numbers of these animals (I'm picking on you, California).

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-28-2017, 07:20 PM
People forget these are predators. Encouraging or forcing contact between human societies and predators is not a good idea for either.
"In the famous ship burial at Sutton Hoo in Suffolk, a purse was discovered; the lid was
decorated with gold and garnets and decorations showing wolves confronting a human
figure."

There was a deliberate campaign to wipe out wolves in or near Wales :-
"Another Anglo-Saxon reference to wolves concerns Constantine of Wales, who is said to
have paid tribute to King Edgar in the form of 300 wolf skins annually. William of
Malmesbury recorded a similar tale noting that King Edgar of England demanded 300 wolf
skins a year from King Idwal of Wales (circa 985 A.D.) as tribute. However, these numbers
may be regarded as a little suspect; there would probably have not been enough wolves
available to fulfil the demand and at least one researcher states the first record of the
tribute demand was not written until approximately 140 years after these events."

"The disappearance of wolves in Britain"

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjJ-or7ysjWAhUBIsAKHbIZB-MQFgg0MAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fukwct.org.uk%2Ffiles%2Fdisappear ance.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGBzg870rtibUebHNYwkcGF5JU7-Q

Volat
10-15-2017, 08:07 AM
double post

Volat
10-15-2017, 08:19 AM
The problem with wolves being hunted by men is that a wolf won't just kill one sheep. It will continue killing many sheep at a time but eats only one. Back in the days livestock was dear to people, so wolves' fate was decides as people's population increased in Europe. This winter several people of several villages in the northern part of my homeland complained about wolves attacks in winter. Many dogs were stolen and people were afraid to send their children in school. In the evenings the streets were empty.

Here's an example for the amount of damage a single wolf can do.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egjOeURf4N8

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-15-2017, 10:06 AM
The problem with wolves being hunted by men is that a wolf won't just kill one sheep. It will continue killing many sheep at a time but eats only one. Back in the days livestock was dear to people, so wolves' fate was decides as people's population increased in Europe. This winter several people of several villages in the northern part of my homeland complained about wolves attacks in winter. Many dogs were stolen and people were afraid to send their children in school. In the evenings the streets were empty.

Here's an example for the amount of damage a single wolf can do.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egjOeURf4N8

Foxes are similar here in the UK but obviously not as powerful. Predators do what they evolved to do, they will kill as many as they can because it's pure instinct. Unfortunately we provide a source of food for them and they were here first.
They also help to maintain a healthy eco system but human societies and large predators means problems for both. I hope our population doesn't expand to the point that there is no room for anything else.

Volat
10-15-2017, 10:20 AM
Foxes are similar here in the UK but obviously not as powerful. Predators do what they evolved to do, they will kill as many as they can because it's pure instinct. Unfortunately we provide a source of food for them and they were here first.
They also help to maintain a healthy eco system but human societies and large predators means problems for both. I hope our population doesn't expand to the point that there is no room for anything else.
Foxes pray are mice, hares, birds - small mammals and birds. Foxes won't be able to kill sheep, cows, calves, horses unlike wolves. I don't think a large population of wolves will necessary maintain good eco system. There aren't many wild animals in forests anymore. So a larger population will turn wolves to livestock. In a region of Siberia authorities banned poison and traps on wolves, so the population increased and wolves needed more food. They started to kill livestock in villages. People complained to authorities and authorities allowed people to use traps again.

Volat
10-15-2017, 12:27 PM
Courageous animal





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akGWOpcWfrQ

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-15-2017, 01:07 PM
Foxes pray are mice, hares, birds - small mammals and birds. Foxes won't be able to kill sheep, cows, calves, horses unlike wolves. I don't think a large population of wolves will necessary maintain good eco system. There aren't many wild animals in forests anymore. So a larger population will turn wolves to livestock. In a region of Siberia authorities banned poison and traps on wolves, so the population increased and wolves needed more food. They started to kill livestock in villages. People complained to authorities and authorities allowed people to use traps again.

Foxes certainly take lambs here in the UK - lots of them, as well as cats and poultry. I've lost many chickens to foxes myself.

Volat
10-15-2017, 01:13 PM
Foxes certainly take lambs here in the UK - lots of them, as well as cats and poultry. I've lost many chickens to foxes myself.

Young sheep perhaps? If fully grown sheep, then likely it doesn't happen often. If foxes were responsible for as much damage as wolves, foxes would have faced fate of wolves across Europe.

rms2
10-15-2017, 02:02 PM
Courageous animal





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akGWOpcWfrQ

It looked to me like, in the end, the wolf got spooked by the drone they were using to make that film. I'm sure he was tired, too.

Volat
10-15-2017, 02:08 PM
It looked to me like, in the end, the wolf got spooked by the drone they were using to make that film. I'm sure he was tired, too.

It looks like it. Moose would likely outrun the wolf in the water with those long legs of his.

MikeWhalen
10-15-2017, 05:14 PM
there is no doubt in my mind, that the wolf finally spotting the drone hovering in his most vulnerable spot (his six) stopped the hunt...at around 4:30 mark he see's it, curls around in the water to get a better look and then goes directly to shore, spooked...good eyes rms

second, that is an unusual attack in that it was a single wolf...that is not how they typically hunt and certainly not how they go after big prey...near the end, the drone showed 2 wolves on the railway track but I did not see 2 working the moose....did it seem like just one to you?

makes me think it was probably a full grown but younger wolf...you know, like an older human male teenager...full of piss and vinegar and high hopes but kinda dopey for the most part

moose are of course, monstrous size and while wolves can and do take them down, they almost always need a pack to do so
...I think most people dont realize just how huge and powerful they are until they run into one
....the first time I did, was when I had a summer job with our Federal Fire research group
...we were about 600 miles north of my city, way deep in the wilderness and on an old logging road
...I was driving the 1 ton 'jacked up high' crew cab pick up truck (the kind you have to jump up to just climb into) when I turned one corner to find a big bull moose about a meter away from us, just standing in the middle of the road looking at me
....its legs were so tall, that its huge body started right around the mid point of our wind shield
...we had to crank our necks a bit up just to look in its eyes and the antlers wrack seemed to be about the size of a small boat
needles to say, we were all impressed to the point of awed at the size of the critter and they can be mean if you get near them in the wrong season

Mike

rms2
10-18-2017, 12:50 AM
I think maybe the film makers brought the drone in and scared the wolf off on purpose. The moose escaping made for a happy ending that even the little kiddies could watch.

Volat
10-19-2017, 10:44 AM
ROFL. Foxes kill lambs very easily. https://www.fginsight.com/news/news/farmer-demands-hunting-act-change-after-foxes-kill-115-lambs-21429

They are also known to attack, and kill, sickly adult sheep as well as young cattle. Now go ask a farmer what the real problem is instead of believing foolish governments that always go for the easiest scapegoat (the wolf). You'd be surprised.


Aren't that many wild animals in forests anymore? Where do you live? Or are you someone who goes out with an ATV and are actually surprised you don't see anything?
Nonsense. If foxes were killing sheep and cattle calves easily, they would have followed wolves in Europe. They would have been exterminated as wolves by people. Have you seen a fox?

George Chandler
10-19-2017, 02:39 PM
Most of the wildlife human conflicts are a people problem and not a wildlife problem. It doesn't matter if it's a human or a critter when you are staring or have to feed your family you will resort to doing things you don't normally do. I have a couple of cats
(one thinks he's a lion and tries to intimidate everything he sees) but if I let them out and a hungry coyote, eagle or wolf gets them who's fault is it...mine. Can't blame the wildlife. Granted some attacks are pretty bold but it's desperation..again what would you do to feed your starving family? A few years back there was a lot of barking and howling going on near where I was and when the sun came up on the ice there was a small pack of coyotes in the distance and a wounded one laying on the ice (still moving) with blood all around it and another that appeared to be standing guard beside it. Then a few minutes later the one that appeared to be standing guard began ripping the intestines out of the still wriggling one on the ice...not your Disney moment. It's desperation..most people think that wolves do a lot of damage to the local ungulate populations but they are important to cull the old and the sick from the area. About 80% of the wild canine populations diet (including wolves) is actually small animals like red back voles, mice and rabbits. A large wolf pack (if I remember) needs about 1 adult moose every week or two to maintain itself. I've had all sorts of interactions with wolves, coyotes, bears, foxes and the most vicious has been a River Otter believe it or not.


When I was sleeping outside in the Golan years ago I could hear the "wolves" but they are pretty small and never actually saw one other than eye shine in the dark. Guessing these are also Canaan dogs?

George

Volat
10-19-2017, 07:02 PM
Most of the wildlife human conflicts are a people problem and not a wildlife problem.

People are a part of nature. It's not our problem that we became more successful large in numbers competing for resources against other animals. Today, we care for wolves, tigers and other animals. Back in the days if a wolf killed a cow, an animal that fed entire family with 5-6 children, then anyone would kill the wolf. It takes 3-4 years for a calf to become a feeding cow. It takes an hour for a wolf to kill it.

We have wolves in my country. But if we didn't I would not miss them.

George Chandler
10-20-2017, 12:10 AM
People are a part of nature. It's not our problem that we became more successful large in numbers competing for resources against other animals. Today, we care for wolves, tigers and other animals. Back in the days if a wolf killed a cow, an animal that fed entire family with 5-6 children, then anyone would kill the wolf. It takes 3-4 years for a calf to become a feeding cow. It takes an hour for a wolf to kill it.

We have wolves in my country. But if we didn't I would not miss them.

There is a responsibility in my opinion for humans to understand the place of apex predators in the food chain and how important they are. Recently British Columbia decided to cull wolves using helicopters (killing and wounding)..now think of the hourly cost of hilo time for taxpayer dollars for people to fly around paying commando shooting wolves to help the Woodland Caribou population. The reduction of the Caribou population is mainly to do with the over logging of old growth forest that holds the Lichen which the Caribou eats..the roads breaking up the territory and the snowmobiles making trails which the wolves utilize in the deeper snow Caribou territory. Not a wolf problem..its a management problem. I'm not against hunting..I'm against stupidity. I've walked down a forest service road in the winter at night know there was a pack of wolves close in and they did nothing and I was not even for a second concerned. I think they have always got the big bad wolf label from film, lore and legend but being around them is pretty cool.

I totally understand in olden times where a shepherd had to defend his/her flock as it meant to live or die. Now we have so many ways to protect and enclose livestock. I've seen and heard of ranchers having wolf and bear issues but many times it's the rancher not disposing of still born calves properly and it attracts them to the flock or heard and they can't figure out why they are being lost to predation.

I just have the belief they were here long before me and like I said if they take a cat (which I love) who's fault is it..mine. Pretty amazing what you get to see running around when everything isn't being shot (not anti gun).

I always chuckle when a wildlife movie is on and people don't want the wolf to get the ungulate but don't think about the cute wolf pups starving in the den.

A few years back they wanted to cull the Yellowstone wolves and were about to until they realized the wolves were being culled naturally by mange. People are the only think in nature out of balance.

George

George Chandler
10-20-2017, 12:31 AM
Where I'm located when you don't have wolves, coyotes and foxes in the area you get huge numbers of Bushy Tailed Wood Rats (Pack Rats) and they are cute..except their urine has a horrible musky smell which is worse than a ferret. A mating pair has an average of five litters per year with and average of five pups in each litter. They pee in the woodpiles, get into vehicle engine compartments chewing wires, urinating and building nests. They get into houses..walls..attics and make normal rats and mice a relief. I'll take the canines over these guys any day!


19374

19375

Volat
10-20-2017, 01:06 AM
I like wolves. I will donate money to keep wolves in our forests. I won't keep them in Belovezha forest where Zubry (European bisons) live. I know what wolves can do. They will eliminate Bisons in 2-3 years.
Complaining how cruel we were to wolves? Come on! We kept many predators including foxes in our forests. But not the wolves. Wolves were killing livestock. Not just stealing one sheep, cow or horse. They'd kill livestock in large numbers.

Volat
10-20-2017, 01:16 AM
People are the only think in nature out of balance.

George
Put yourself in shoes of your great grandparent who had a family of 10-12. All he had is livestock and there was no grocery nearby. Who is to blame him for putting a wolf trap?

George Chandler
10-20-2017, 09:45 PM
Put yourself in shoes of your great grandparent who had a family of 10-12. All he had is livestock and there was no grocery nearby. Who is to blame him for putting a wolf trap?

Like I mentioned before there were the days when people had to shepherd whatever livestock they had. Now it's to the point in my opinion where all of the wildlife need shepherding from the predator which are human beings. Normally when an animal kills it kills to survive and eats most if not all of what it kills. Now people kill usually for sport or to tack a hide or a head on a wall. I'm not being self righteous and not against hunting but most people care nothing for the animal the was killed (regardless if it was wild or livestock). We live in a society where it isn't like the 1700's, 1800's etc and we can go to the store a pick up some electric fencing cheap or build a better barn to hold and protect the livestock but the simplest solution for people is just to kill the wolf or whatever the predator is. It's the same with sharks..people make monster movies about sharks and install fear. A couple of people get bitten here or there and yet hundreds if not thousands of people hand feed some of the most dangerous sharks and kill them by the hundreds of thousands with all sorts of excuses that they are protecting the public. How dangerous the sharks are and how they are impacting people's livelihoods by eating the fish yet they are an import part of the food chain.

People are cruel to wolves...have you ever watched one die in a snare or a trap? There was a local retriever that got caught in a coyote snare last year and it almost died but was strangling there for quite a while until the owner was able to free it. I totally get how years ago it needed to be done or if it meant it or you living or being warm it would be a different story. Try putting the ends of your fingers in a Conibear trap (small little 120 used to catch Pine Marten)..don't have to let it snap just let the pressure sit on your fingers to see how long you can tolerate the pain.

Are the low Bison numbers a result of the Wolves or over hunting, deforestation, road infrastructure, and domestic lives stock and habitat loss?

People are the problem generally..not the wolves.

George

George Chandler
10-20-2017, 10:00 PM
Maybe I'm to the point in may life that I've killed enough and it's much nicer to see something running around free that I just don't have the urge to kill something without good reason. I'm less naive to the shows and movies that vilify certain wildlife species. Old enough to know that the over evolved primates that claim divine authority over the planet and it's species are so far from the divine it's sad.

George

rms2
10-20-2017, 10:20 PM
Maybe I'm to the point in may life that I've killed enough and it's much nicer to see something running around free that I just don't have the urge to kill something without good reason. I'm less naive to the shows and movies that vilify certain wildlife species. Old enough to know that the over evolved primates that claim divine authority over the planet and it's species are so far from the divine it's sad.

George

It seems to me the "shows and movies" these days are far more likely to vilify humans than animals.

Volat
10-21-2017, 12:50 AM
People are cruel to wolves...have you ever watched one die in a snare or a trap? There was a local retriever that got caught in a coyote snare last year and it almost died but was strangling there for quite a while until the owner was able to free it. I totally get how years ago it needed to be done or if it meant it or you living or being warm it would be a different story. Try putting the ends of your fingers in a Conibear trap (small little 120 used to catch Pine Marten)..don't have to let it snap just let the pressure sit on your fingers to see how long you can tolerate the pain.

Are the low Bison numbers a result of the Wolves or over hunting, deforestation, road infrastructure, and domestic lives stock and habitat loss?

People are the problem generally..not the wolves.

George
I like wolves. As I stated above I will support any program to keep them in our forests. My home is Vitsebsk rigion northern Belarus. Border of western Russia, Latvia, Lithuania and northern Belarus. This winter people in several villages of Vitsebsk region complained about wolves. People were afraid sending children to school because wolves were coming to villages during winter. Wolves were stealing dogs. People complained to authorities about wolves. If authorities didn;t control wolves, people would control wolves themselves. Laws are such that people cannot kill wolves anymore.

People were responsible for elimination of Bisons in Belovezha forest. Not wolves. Killing a Bison illegaly will attract around 90,000 Euros in fine.

These are European Bisons



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w780BkabKaM

rms2
10-21-2017, 12:58 AM
If I found out a wolf killed a child, I would have no compunction in killing every wolf I could. Otherwise, I like wolves, but I like them far less than I like humans.

Volat
10-21-2017, 01:08 AM
If I found out a wolf killed a child, I would have no compunction in killing every wolf I could. Otherwise, I like wolves, but I like them far less than I like humans.

So much complaining about wolves getting killed... Most complaining is coming from Europe. There's a reason why wolves were killed and not foxes, for example.

Volat
10-21-2017, 01:10 AM
I'd rather keep brown bears and lynxes than wolves in our forests. Lynxes will do less damage to livestock than wolves.

George Chandler
10-21-2017, 03:26 PM
It seems to me the "shows and movies" these days are far more likely to vilify humans than animals.

It's better than it was in the past but you still get movies like the grey or one of the Bourne movies which portray the wolves stalking people. If something is going to stalk and take a child or adult it's more likely to be a large cat than a pack of canines. If you see a cat watching you..you're likely on the menu. If you see a wolf pack they are likely looking for an escape route.

George Chandler
10-21-2017, 03:31 PM
I like wolves. As I stated above I will support any program to keep them in our forests. My home is Vitsebsk rigion northern Belarus. Border of western Russia, Latvia, Lithuania and northern Belarus. This winter people in several villages of Vitsebsk region complained about wolves. People were afraid sending children to school because wolves were coming to villages during winter. Wolves were stealing dogs. People complained to authorities about wolves. If authorities didn;t control wolves, people would control wolves themselves. Laws are such that people cannot kill wolves anymore.

People were responsible for elimination of Bisons in Belovezha forest. Not wolves. Killing a Bison illegaly will attract around 90,000 Euros in fine.



These are European Bisons



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w780BkabKaM


Could be a lot of reasons for domestic dogs going missing..everything from people not liking them running loose to them change livestock or wildlife and being killed. If wolves are eating the domestic dogs it's because they have lost a prey species (in this case Bison). So again..is it a wolf problem or a people problem for not fencing in their domestic animals?

George Chandler
10-21-2017, 03:35 PM
If I found out a wolf killed a child, I would have no compunction in killing every wolf I could. Otherwise, I like wolves, but I like them far less than I like humans.

I think it's a pretty normal initial response but is it the correct one. If a human being or person of a certain ethnic or religious group killed one of my children should I eradicate every one I see? Humans are just another species on this planet.

Sorry I've been around Wolves, Bears, Cats etc and I've been around people and moist days I would pick the critters.

George Chandler
10-21-2017, 03:40 PM
On sort of a side note regarding wolves and wild canines. I was in a Zoo once in a city not my own and walked up the the Dhole enclosure and one from the pack came running up to where I was and sat down in front of me then walked with me back and forth all excited from one end of the enclosure to the other. I must have looked like a zoo keeper or something because it was acting like a long lost pet. My girlfriend at the time thought it was really weird because it wouldn't do it for her or anyone else walking past just me. It wouldn't take it's eyes off me. Cute dogs.

George Chandler
10-21-2017, 03:43 PM
So much complaining about wolves getting killed... Most complaining is coming from Europe. There's a reason why wolves were killed and not foxes, for example.

The more interaction between people and wildlife the more conflict there will be and the more wildlife will get destroyed.

George Chandler
10-21-2017, 03:48 PM
I'd rather keep brown bears and lynxes than wolves in our forests. Lynxes will do less damage to livestock than wolves.


All are part of the ecosystem. Each one has a place and purpose. Compare the damage humans do on a daily basis from mass destruction of the different ecosystems for profit to war to pollution. Then people are worried about a few cattle or other livestock being lost when most already have insurance for that. Look at the mass damage humans do to the oceans with shark finning and how sadistic that is. If you want to see who the monster of this plant is all humans have to do is look in the mirror...scariest halloween costume anyone can put on.

rms2
10-21-2017, 04:08 PM
I think it's a pretty normal initial response but is it the correct one. If a human being or person of a certain ethnic or religious group killed one of my children should I eradicate every one I see? Humans are just another species on this planet.

Sorry I've been around Wolves, Bears, Cats etc and I've been around people and moist days I would pick the critters.

Wolves and human religious and ethnic groups are not analogous. I don't agree at all that "humans are just another species on this planet", which implies that animals have an equal claim to our regard for their safety and well being.

Even if I did not believe that humans are made in the image of God (but I do), humans are my species. Wolves are just big, wild dogs, who would be glad to eat me if they had the chance.

I like animals, but people are so far above them there is no comparison. Honestly, that is the only moral position.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-21-2017, 04:38 PM
Wolves and human religious and ethnic groups are not analogous. I don't agree at all that "humans are just another species on this planet", which implies that animals have an equal claim to our regard for their safety and well being.

Even if I did not believe that humans are made in the image of God (but I do), humans are my species. Wolves are just big, wild dogs, who would be glad to eat me if they had the chance.

I like animals, but people are so far above them there is no comparison. Honestly, that is the only moral position.

The morality of humanity in the broader sense is questionable to say the least. Animals can't judge right from wrong, people supposedly can but seem to get it wrong most of the time. We will destroy this planet and ourselves eventually.

MikeWhalen
10-21-2017, 05:49 PM
gentle redirect...

now be honest folks, which wolf pic do you like best?

19396

19397

19398

19399

19400

I had one more in the collection that I was temped to post, but I know I would have gotten yelled at by the girls, so I resisted the temptation

:)

Mike

George Chandler
10-21-2017, 06:07 PM
Nice! I like all of them.

George Chandler
10-21-2017, 06:26 PM
Wolves and human religious and ethnic groups are not analogous. I don't agree at all that "humans are just another species on this planet", which implies that animals have an equal claim to our regard for their safety and well being.

Even if I did not believe that humans are made in the image of God (but I do), humans are my species. Wolves are just big, wild dogs, who would be glad to eat me if they had the chance.

I like animals, but people are so far above them there is no comparison. Honestly, that is the only moral position.

The way I look at is the the following things I can 100% saw have been done to me without any provocation on my part. So lets say I excited someone to punch me..I can't claim a pity party as I deserved it.

Attempted murder
Assault
Falsely Arrested
Falsely Accused of a crime (s)
Falsely Identified of committing a crime (s)
Stolen from
Had help which I provided taken credit and reward for by others who had nothing to do with the event (s).
Cheated on
Lied to
Slandered
Liabled
Had privacy violated
Defrauded of wages
Interference with relationships
Interference with career
Threatened


Guess what those events have in common...all done by human beings. Funny I can't recall a canine wolf or wolf pack ever doing any of those things. Of the "literal" thousands of interactions I've had with bears (both Grizzly and Black) I can think of a single black bear that was about 200 lbs that snapped it's jaws at me and did his foot stomp about 100m away. It was in an area with heavy ATV and motorbike use with well worn trails..was it because he was just aggressive or he had been harassed and chased by people on atv's? I would bet it was a human caused issue but I can't prove it. My closest unintended interaction with a Grizzly in the wild being unarmed, alone, not in a vehicle... on ground level out in the open with no defence was 51'. Still no aggressive response..can they still kill or become dangerous?..sure but who is more dangerous them or us.

Imagine an alien species where our solar system is within their territory even if they have never set foot here. Imagine they treated humans with the same disregard as humans tend to treat most of the other species on the planet. Humans would see them as evil, villains, cold, without ethics, godless beings.

Look I believe in the Great Game Warden too..I just don't believe in humanities divine authority over this planet.

George

George Chandler
10-21-2017, 06:29 PM
Consider all of the interactions between wildlife and humans regardless if they are wolves or not then look at the statistics regarding how many people or live stock they have killed..then look at the statistics on the animals being killed by humans..loss of habitat..loss of food sources. Who are the villains? Throughout history...how many proven wolf attacks have there been?

rms2
10-21-2017, 06:33 PM
The morality of humanity in the broader sense is questionable to say the least. Animals can't judge right from wrong, people supposedly can but seem to get it wrong most of the time. We will destroy this planet and ourselves eventually.

I wasn't talking about the "morality of humanity". Obviously there are many evil people in the world. But the idea that animals have an equal or even superior claim to our compassion is not moral.

rms2
10-21-2017, 06:34 PM
gentle redirect...

now be honest folks, which wolf pic do you like best?

19396

19397

19398

19399

19400

I had one more in the collection that I was temped to post, but I know I would have gotten yelled at by the girls, so I resisted the temptation

:)

Mike

The last one.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
10-21-2017, 07:40 PM
I wasn't talking about the "morality of humanity". Obviously there are many evil people in the world. But the idea that animals have an equal or even superior claim to our compassion is not moral.

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” Ghandi. :)

Volat
10-21-2017, 08:07 PM
All are part of the ecosystem. Each one has a place and purpose. Compare the damage humans do on a daily basis from mass destruction of the different ecosystems for profit to war to pollution. Then people are worried about a few cattle or other livestock being lost when most already have insurance for that. Look at the mass damage humans do to the oceans with shark finning and how sadistic that is. If you want to see who the monster of this plant is all humans have to do is look in the mirror...scariest halloween costume anyone can put on.

Insurance for cattle and sharks? There was no insurance back in the days when most wolves were eliminated. 90% of all animals that ever existed are extinct. People didn't kill them all.

rms2
10-21-2017, 08:22 PM
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” Ghandi. :)

And I never said animals should be mistreated. I like animals. I just think making them equal or superior to humans is inherently immoral and foolish.

IMHO, Gandhi was wrong about a lot of things. In this country we just lurve animals, but we murder unborn babies by the millions and sell their body parts.

George Chandler
10-21-2017, 08:36 PM
Insurance for cattle and sharks? There was no insurance back in the days when most wolves were eliminated. 90% of all animals that ever existed are extinct. People didn't kill them all.

Like I said before I don't compare necessarily past events with now. People can get livestock insurance. I'm not sure what you mean by insurance for sharks?

George Chandler
10-21-2017, 08:49 PM
And I never said animals should be mistreated. I like animals. I just think making them equal or superior to humans is inherently immoral and foolish.

IMHO, Gandhi was wrong about a lot of things. In this country we just lurve animals, but we murder unborn babies by the millions and sell their body parts.

I know people who don't mistreat animals but still see them as souls beings that are only here to serve humanity and provide food. The belief that it has no soul eases their conscience in my opinion. I don't expect everyone to have the same beliefs or behaviour as me..not a granola eating left winger as some may perceive. When I have an animal that becomes mine (for life) I treat it as part of the family no matter if it's a snake, fish, cat, dog or whatever. It's my responsibility to take care of it..be kind to it..doesn't mean I worship it. Just because some people do things which are immoral to other human beings regardless if that is done through genocide, war (or whatever the case) it shouldn't be used as a justification to negate better treatment of critters. Each person will have their own opinion of morality depending on upbringing, religion or life experience..when I look at wolves I see a species that has been vilified over the centuries and should be treated better (like many other species of animals).

I'm not saying or implying you are abusive to animals just because you have a differing opinion from me.

rms2
10-21-2017, 09:30 PM
Well, I love my two little dogs. They are like members of the family. We probably really agree more than we disagree. I just don't for a moment think humans and animals are on anything like equal footing or should be.

Volat
10-22-2017, 12:08 AM
Like I said before I don't compare necessarily past events with now. People can get livestock insurance. I'm not sure what you mean by insurance for sharks?

Wolves were killed in the past on European continent.

kostoffj
10-22-2017, 04:49 AM
Humans are just another species on this planet.

Sorry I've been around Wolves, Bears, Cats etc and I've been around people and moist days I would pick the critters.

.....

kostoffj
10-22-2017, 04:52 AM
.....

Mingle
05-12-2018, 05:06 PM
Arabian wolves are often mixed with Canaan dogs, and so they usually do not fear humans.

That's a bit disappointing. Hope this doesn't affect their ability to survive in the wild.