BY198/A738 Haplogroup - Clan Association and Geographic Distribution

[miiser]

Starting a new thread to continue the off topic discussion from the Curley surname specific thread:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3577-Curley-Surname-Connection-to-the-Airgialla-Kingdom-and-Three-Collas&p=180724#post180724

If a mod would like to help migrate the discussion, around comment #39 is where the thread becomes a BY198/A738 centric discussion rather than a Curley surname discussion.



Where is BY198/A738 from? What are its clan associations? Muireagain has many theories on the origin of S660, BY198/A738 and its various subclades. I'm not convinced, but am willing to consider his evidence.

The STR variance suggests that BY198 is on the order of 1000 years old, and YFull estimates S660 to be 1550 years old. This makes it unlikely that either BY198 or S660 is limited to a single clan.

[Dubhthach]

What exactly do you mean when you use the term "Clan" in an Irish context? Are you using the term with regards to scottish system? (Which isn't really equivalent system to Ireland), or in concept of "Corporate Clan" (eg. land holding Fine which rotated land at each generation but kept it within the kindred, as outlined by likes of Nicholls, Patterson etc.) or to mean a specific surname (and it's collateral surnames)? Or to describe a wider dynastical segment?

What can we say about DF105? Well on an analysis of 194 men who have done M222+ bundle, DF105+ comes back at about 82.99% (161 out of 194) -- it's fairly evident that in an Irish context it covers several distinct dynastical segments, if we were to propose that it was linked to the Dál Cuinn, than that makes alot of sense. The Dál Cuinn underwent rapid diversification in the 5th/6th century as they basically conquered half of Ireland.

In the genealogical tradition of course this is represented by having them all basically spring from one man in shape of Eochaid, who is represent as the ancestor of both the three Connachta (Uí Briúin, Uí Ḟíachrach and Uí Aillella) and the Uí Néill

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/eochaid-connachta.png
11321

Of course like all genealogical structures from before about 700 the above is quite rightly suspect, the concept that the titular Brion (a quo Uí Briúin) and Níall (a quo Uí Néill) were actual half-brothers is very debatable, however politically the Connachta and Uí Néill during the 7th-9th centuries were allied closely to each other and within framework of Irish society were regarded as close kin. So the actual specifics of relationship (the half-brothers) might be fabricated fiction, but it probably reflects a deeper common tribal origin of various Dál Cuinn segments. This concept of it been a tribal federation has more weight when we consider that in oldest strata of Irish language texts we see the term Moccu Cuinn used. The word Moccu is from Archaic Irish (as found on Ogham stones) and usage disapears during the Old Irish linguistic phase (600-1000AD), it's generally translated as "tribe" and it's usage is restricted very much to a pre-christian milieu.

What we can say is that from current surname analysis that we see DF105 prominent in following:
Uí Briúin -- all three segments, which differenate in the 6th century, A259 seems to be prominent theme here
Uí Ḟiachrach -- DF105 undifferentiated, we have limited number of Uí Fiachrach surnames that have done BigY
Uí Aillella -- were destroyed with rise of Uí Briúin in the late 7th century, as result when fixed surnames arose none claimed to be part of them

The Uí Néill of course spilt into at least 7 if not more dynastical segments during the course of the late 5th/early 6th century, all of these claiming to be from titular sons of Níall.

Northern Uí Néill
Cenél Conaill -- Donegal/NW -- dominated by DF105 (Specifically DF85)
Cenél nEogain -- Tyrone/Derry (thence origin of name Tyrone eg. Tír Eoghain = Country of Eoghan) -- dominated by DF105 (specifically S588)

Southern Uí Néill (this is where it gets tricky)

The Southern Uí Néill obviously occupied the province of Meath, which consisted of Westmeath (Mide), Meath (Brega) and large parts of Longford (Tethba) and Offaly. Hugh de Lacy conquored core of this territory and created the Lordship of Meath.

Within the Southern Uí Néill we know surnames for at least the following dynastical segments:
Cenél Maine -- Daly, Fox/Kearney, Higgins? so far depending on level test at least some form of DF105 shows up
Cenél Fiachrach -- Molly and McGeoghegan -- definetly got M222 here with DF105 showing up in Molloy (have any Geoghegan's done deeper testing?)
Clann Chólmain -- most important of the segments of Southern Uí Néill, what makes life difficult here is that the main line has undergone process of attraction when it came to their surname eg. Ó Maoilsheaclainn -> O'Mealghin -> McLaughlin/McLoughlin -- as a result it's hard to differenate them out without more in dept testing than just M222 (eg. Cenél nEogain McLaughlin show up as S588+)
Cenél Coirpre -- we have at least one or two M222+ Carey's however none that I know who have done any further testing.

Without some indepth research insitu in the midlands (eg. targeting men bearing surnames which are suppose to be part of Southern Uí Néill, with MDKA in the midlands) it's gonna be hard to form a better picture. However generally when M222 shows up in an Irish context it's most of time also DF105+

With regards to BY198, I think it's too early to form any conclusions about it (well other than it's branch of DF105), it would be useful if the 4 BY198+ BigY results on Alex page were to be submitted to yfull and we might get better idea of it's age.

Recalling ScotlandsDNA M222 map, I'd be curious how this would shape up when it came to DF105 (or S660 as they called it), that and you would really need them to spilt their Leinster into the historic provinces of Leinster and Meath (well that and spilt Dublin out separately as well).

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/m222_spread.png

Bart Jaski has interesting paper looking at M222 with regards to the original Trinity paper and the surnames that they used see:

Medieval Irish genealogies and genetics, in Seán Duffy (ed.), Princes, prelates and poets in medieval Ireland. Essays in honour of Katharine Simms (Dublin, 2013) 3-17.

https://www.academia.edu/2563825/Medieval_Irish_genealogies_and_genetics_in_Se%C3%A 1n_Duffy_ed._Princes_prelates_and_poets_in_medieva l_Ireland._Essays_in_honour_of_Katharine_Simms_Dub lin_2013_3-17

[miiser]

What exactly do you mean when you use the term "Clan" in an Irish context? Are you using the term with regards to scottish system? (Which isn't really equivalent system to Ireland), or in concept of "Corporate Clan" (eg. land holding Fine which rotated land at each generation but kept it within the kindred, as outlined by likes of Nicholls, Patterson etc.) or to mean a specific surname (and it's collateral surnames)? Or to describe a wider dynastical segment?

I didn't have a specific definition of "clan" in mind when I made the statement, because it doesn't make a difference. Choose any definition you like, and the statement is still true. If you like, replace "clan" with the more generic phrase "family group".

A haplogroup begins with one individual, who exists in one particular location and belongs to one particular family, clan, tribe, etc. of a particular name. But after a thousand years or more, that individual's descendants will be spread over a much greater region within a variety of families, clans, or tribes. The correlation between haplogroup and clan becomes weaker over time. While there may still be some weak correlation between haplogroup and clan after 1000 years, we should not expect that every haplogroup will be exclusive to a specific clan, or that every clan will be exclusively composed of a single haplogroup.

The rate of NPEs is something like 3% or 4% per generation. This accumulates over 1000 years, so that the probability of any single lineage being intact, unaffected by NPEs, is only around 25%. This means even if we believe an ancient recorded genealogy is true, the genetic lineage will still probably not match the documented genealogy. In addition to NPEs, there is genetic mixing between tribes and clans for various reason, including the fosterage system that was prevalent in Irish culture.

In short, while one may on occasion find a weak correlation between haplogroups and historical tribes, clans, or families etc., we should not expect a majority of haplogroup members to fit into such neat categories of division. And this is what we see in the actual data. There is no strong exclusive correlation between haplogroup and clan. The ancient haplogroups are scattered throughout all of Ireland, spread amongst just about every available surname. And this is why we see so much discussion and debate regarding supposed associations - because there is no obvious single, exclusive association. If there were obvious strong correlations, this would put an immediate end to all debate.

[Muireagain]

The rate of NPEs is something like 3% or 4% per generation. This accumulates over 1000 years, so that the probability of any single lineage being intact, unaffected by NPEs, is only around 25%. This means even if we believe an ancient recorded genealogy is true, the genetic lineage will still probably not match the documented genealogy. In addition to NPEs, there is genetic mixing between tribes and clans for various reason, including the fosterage system that was prevalent in Irish culture.

Of the 26 M222+ Dohertys that have tested their sub-clade, 25 of 26 descend from same Dochartach of the order of 20 generation ago, 1 of 26 probably descends from a ruling branch of Cenel Eoghain located in Inis Eoghain. This conflicts the proposed NPE rate.

Of the 22 M222+ Duncan and MacConnaughey that have tested their sub-clade, 22 of 22 descend from a common ancestor (about 1000 years ago) who was probably a member of Clann Dalaigh.

[miiser]

Of the 26 M222+ Dohertys that have tested their sub-clade, 25 of 26 descend from same Dochartach of the order of 20 generation ago, 1 of 26 probably descends from a ruling branch of Cenel Eoghain located in Inis Eoghain. This conflicts the proposed NPE rate.

Of the 22 M222+ Duncan and MacConnaughey that have tested their sub-clade, 22 of 22 descend from a common ancestor (about 1000 years ago) who was probably a member of Clann Dalaigh.

Once again, you are cherry picking data to find a pattern in the data that isn't real. The surnames you chose are exceptional, not typical. And even within these surnames, you cherry picked only those members that are M222, deliberately excluding many that do not fit your supposed pattern.

There are several academic studies regarding NPE rate. Go look them up online.

[GogMagog]

My theory? A8815 positive are O'Egan, A8815 neg are MacEgan.

[Muireagain]

There are now three A8815+ Morgans. They are from Creagh Parish, Ro. Roscommon, Killian parish, Co. Galway and Glenmaddy Parish, Co. Galway. This suggests that the Morgan cluster in the mid-19th century Griffith evaluation. A crescent: from west shore of the Shannon in Co. Roscommon; across southern Co. Roscommon in Co. Galway; were it turns north on the west side of the River Suck; and follows it to the Roscommon border.

18411

I believe the BY198/A738+ Egans are from the same area and the Larkins further south?

[Muireagain]

I note there are two branches of BY198/A738. One (FGC4050+) I would describe as partially locate in East Galway with surnames like Morgan and Egan. And another (S27575+) possibly related to North Tipperary with surnames Dunn and Kimball.

[GogMagog]

Might be an idea to have a test for myself and see which branch I am on.

[Muireagain]

Did some digging and came up with following SNP tree:

BY198 - FGC40511 - BY11728 - BY21186 Knowles & Davis
BY198 - FGC40511 - BY11728 Egan(s) & Gallagher
BY198 - FGC40511 Morgan(s) & Guinn
BY198 - BY20834 - BY21680 - BY21671 - BY21676 Larkin(s) from Lorrha and Meelick areas
BY198 - BY21680 - A15878 Dunn(s) & Kimball
BY198 - BY21145 - BY21151 Heaney(s)

[GogMagog]

Heaney crops up on my DNA line somewhere.

[Muireagain]

Correcting/adjusting the BY198 tree for Martin we now have:

BY198>FGC40511>BY11728>BY21186 Knowles & Davis
BY198>FGC40511>BY11728 Egan(s) & Gallagher
BY198>FGC40511>* Morgan(s) & Guinn

BY198>BY20834>BY21680>BY21671>BY21676 Larkin(s) from Lorrha and Meelick areas
BY198>BY20834>Y36587>A15878 Dunn(s) & Kimball
BY198>BY20834>Y36587>* Martin

BY198>BY21145>BY21151 Heaney(s)

[Dubhthach]

I don't see any Larkins on Alex's big tree. Is there a reason for them not sharing their data?
http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2343&star=false

[GogMagog]

Like myself they may not have done BY? I am A 8815 neg.

[Muireagain]

I don't see any Larkins on Alex's big tree. Is there a reason for them not sharing their data?
http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2343&star=false

Privacy concerns were expressed about sharing with Alex's big tree.

[Dubhthach]

Privacy concerns were expressed about sharing with Alex's big tree.

Is that why the Larkin project have their SNP result page turned off? That's a pity tbh.

[Muireagain]

The poem starting Dá néall orchra ós iath Uisnigh (translation: “Two clouds of grief cover the land of Uisneach”) from An Duanaire Nuinseannach, an eulogy to Eoghain O Cobhthaigh and his wife by Diarmaid O Cobhthaigh, says his loss was a loss for the race of Fiachaidh. From this it be surmised the majority of Coffey’s that dominate the 1659 census for principle men in Westmeath are from Cenel Fiachach. As for DNA I think they are represented by the Coffey’s County Meath “A” group http://www.coffey.ws/familytree/dna/CousinsData.pdf .

The Coffey’s County Meath “B” group and “C” group are on interest to me, for their DYS449 is 27. Such a low value of DYS449 is common to the A738/BY198+ population and as the project noted these Coffey are similar in haplotype to the Egans. Hence maybe Coffey’s County Meath “B” and “C” groups are from a different S660+ branch from the Coffey’s County Meath “A” group and not from Cenel Fiachach.

[GogMagog]

Coffey is polygenetic, Egan has a core of 30% royal/M222 the rest just took the name.

[Muireagain]

Coffey is polygenetic, Egan has a core of 30% royal/M222 the rest just took the name.

Coffey are certainly polygenetic, for there are indeed multiple O Cobhthaigh families arising from different Gaelic tribes. The same is true for the Egans.

The Book of Ballymote has h. Aedagain from Ui Maine or h. Aedhagain from Clann Cathaill. While the Book of Ui Maine actual calls the Egans - 'Mac Eidigan'. O'Donovan suggest 'Mac Aedhagain' is the correct spelling, however O Dubhaghain also uses 'Mac Eitteagain' in his topographical poem. And mentions them in regard to 'the Clann Diarmada north and south', which might related the Four master reference to 1132.13 Diarmait Mac Eiticcén, taoiseach Cloinne Diarmada, d' écc (Diarmaid Mac Eitigen, chief of Clann-Diarmada, died and certainly to the Book of Ui Maine's 'Mac Eidigan,flaith Clainni Diarmada'.

The surname h. fEidegan can be found in the Airgialla pedigrees and h. Eidhighen in the Cenel Fiachach mac Niell pedigree. Mc. Eidig can be found in Clann Dofa mc. Aengusa.

Hence there are potentially numerous origins for Egan.

The problem now becomes associating a particular share Egan haplogroup to an origin (at least a known origin).

Certainly the majority of Egans tested correspond to the NW Irish modal and hence M222+, with one being positive for BY198+. There is one Egan how is positive for BY3442 and so matches the haplogroup of the O Ceallaigh of Ui Maine. Yet the sheer number of M222+ Egan with DYS449=27 suggest to the largest Egan family in Ireland is BY198+, i.e., the Egans of Ui Maine.

Changing topic a little, there is another testee that has a low value for DYS449 and that is Mannion 137003 from Ballinastack, Co Galway – home to the Soghain (a people Cruithne).

Names associate with Soghain in Galway include the O Mannion, O Martins and Maguinn (BY198+ Guinn?).

Directly east of Soghain is the land of Clann Cremthainn (Cruffon), home to the Mac Eidigan (Egans) and O Murchadhain & BY198+ Morgans.

And to the south of the them in the land of Sil Anmchadha home to the O Lorcain (Larkins) and O Cobhthaigh (Coffeys) of Ui Maine.

Leading me to wonder if A738/BY198+ is associated with the families of north and eastern Co. Galway?
(The missing 1659 ‘census’ for co. Galway would have helped.)

I would be tempted to claim the A738/BY198+ are the real Ui Maine over the FGC6545, however BY198+ surnames interrelationships do not conform to the pedigrees and the origin of the Ui Maine also seems to be a fabrication.

[Muireagain]

I tried to find "Clann Diarmada north and south", however I failure. Although I did find possible origin to possible FGC5939+ Egans:

abbé Mac-Geoghegan in his "The History of Ireland" has: "Cloinfearumoigh, a territory in western Breifny, the patrimony of the Maccagadons, or Mac-Eogans, of the race of Colla-da: Chrioch; another branch of his name had possessions in northern Clan-Diarmada."

"Cambrensis eversus" by John Lynch has "Maccagadon in Cloinfearnmoigh"

The corresponding section in O Dubhaghain poem is "McCagadhain, circle of fame, is over the noble Clann-Fearmaighe," and in the original Gaelic 'Mag Cadhagin'.

The associated note is: "MacCagadhain, now MacCogan, and Cogan without the prefix Mac. Clann Fearmaighe is now anglicised Glanfarne. It adjoins Munter-Kenny, and both territories are comprised in the barony of Dromahaire, in the county of Leitrim. Glanfarne stretches to the east and north-east of Lough Allen, and contains twenty-one quarters of land. See Annals of Four Masters, A.D. 1217, note g."

“Betha M' Áedócc Ferna” records that the “Mac Ethigen comramach” as one of twelve families that crown the King of Breifne. They may be one of the twelve coarbs of St. Maedocc of Ferns.

[GogMagog]

MacEttigan MacGettigan as a separate name? Egans are supposedly descended from Aedh fl 800 AD.

[Muireagain]

John Grenham web site says "... Ó h-Eideagáin. A name first noted in Roscommon in 15 cent;...", sourced to SGG under the surname Hedigan. He also has the entry "Ó h-Eideagáin - B'fhéidir go mbaineann siad le Ó h-Eiteagáin, clann eaglasta in Ail Finn (Ros Comáin) anallód. Féach Ó h-Eideáin" with no source information. (Also "Haddigan Very rare: E Galway etc. Ir. Ó h-Eideagáin. See Hedigan.") MacGettigan is an Anglicization commonly used by Mac-Eiteagáin in Co. Donegal, however think what the name would look like it the Ts were shift to D - Macgadigan.

There is this Latin record, referencing Roscommon, circa 1431: "Item, promisit producere mandatum ratificacionis infra decem menses. (Ibid., f. 195.) 16. Eadem die [24 Nov.], Dermitius Magaedagan, principalis, obligavit se Camere, super annata rectorie ruralis terrarum ruralium de Drumcliab, Elphinensis dioc., cuius fructus octo marcharum sterlingorum communi extimacione, vacantis per obitum Thome Otarpa extra curiam; collate eidem Rome etc., iiii id. Octobris, anno undecimo."

Aedhagain is explained as being from a double diminutive of Aedh. However the argument '-agan' is from a double diminutive seems suspect. The same argument is to explain the etymology of Muireagain, however that name seems to be a single diminutive from the associated names of Murchadh and Muireadhach.

[GogMagog]

I came across O'Egan. Also, in Cork, lawyers to the MacCarthys, Egans having some land. O'h'Aoghagain.

[Muireagain]

I find CS1132 has Diarmait mac meic Edigen taoisech Clainne Diarmada moritur, hence Diarmaid (a chief of Clan Dermot) was the son of the son of Edigen, i.e., grandson of Edigen. Hence likely the genus for MacEdigen dynastic surname. (M1132.13 Diarmait Mac Eiticcén, taoiseach Cloinne Diarmada, d' écc.)

If Dairmaid was a member of MacEgan of Ui Maine. then he would be a brother or cousin of Muirchertaig m. Floind m. Aedagan. This Aedagan would have been the 0genus of MacAedagain (MacEdigen) and dead around 1185. This would mean the originator lived after the assumption of O' surnames and likely that Mac surnames originated from the formula z Mac Meic y O' x surnames. So what was Edigan's original dynastic surname?

Additionally where is Clann Diarmaid, north and south, that the MacEgans were lords of? Also their is no Diarmaid within the given pedigree of the MacEgans?


The association Mac Edigen entry in Chronicon Scotorum with Clan Dermot in the barony of Tirkeeran in Co. Derry is a similar surname: U1197.2 Mac Gilla Eidich do Chiannachtaibh. However the the unwary, such as the NI Placenamesni.org as include entries such as M1087.6 Maol Ruanaidh Ua h-Airt, .i. do Chloinn Diarmada, tigherna Tethbha, d'ecc. It is unlike the Lord of Teffia (western end of Westmeath) was also associated with the Clan Dermot in co. Derry.

Or M1099.11 Cathraoinedh, .i. maidhm Lochain Geiridh, ria n-Iarthar Tethbha, .i. ria Muintir Tadhgain, for a Airther, dú i t-torchair do Cloinn Diarmadae don chur-sin Muirchertach Ua h-Airt, tigherna Tethbha, sochaidhibh oile ammaille fris im Ua Lachtnáin.

Or M1205.7 Raghnall Mac Diarmata ticcerna Cloinne Diarmata do écc.

From the Book of Lecan:
Clann Diarmada meic Concobur - in ulster ruled over by the O Cairellain
Clann Diarmada - associated with and ruled over by MacEgan
Clann Diarmada Find meic Tomaltaig - Sil Muiredaig of Ui Briuin

Book of Ballymote (northern famlies):
Clann Diarmada mac Aedha ornidhe of Cenel Eogain
Clann Diarmada mac Aoda Slaine
Clann Diarmada mac Bec of Teffia
Clann Diarmada .i. Aedhacan m. hIracan .. of Clann Gormgaile of Cenel Laeghaire
Clann Diarmada mc. Muirgesa of Clann Cathail of Ui Briuin
Genelach Diarmata Find mc. Tomaltaig of Sil Muiredaig of Ui Briuin

Book of the Ui Maine:
Clann Diarmada mic Gilliberd mic Domnaill Moir and Clann Diarmada mic Domnaill Moir - they seem to be the same branch from Diarmaid O Ceallaigh of Ui Maine who lived in the 13th century.
Mac Eidhigan, chief of Claim Diarmada, one of the seven flaith of Ui Maine

[Muireagain]

Add McGrail (McGreal) to the list:

BY198 - FGC40511 - BY11728 - BY21186 Knowles & Davis
BY198 - FGC40511 - BY11728 Egan(s) & Gallagher
BY198 - FGC40511 - Morgan(s) & Guinn
BY198 - BY20834 - BY21680 - BY21671 - BY21676 Larkin(s) from Lorrha and Meelick areas
BY198 - BY21680 - A15878 Dunn(s) & Kimball + McGrail
BY198 - BY21145 - BY21151 Heaney(s)

McGrail are found in East Mayo per the nineteenth Griffith Evaluation. The McGreal as an Irish surname are identified as either Galloglass settled in North Leitrim and Mayo or the a native MacNeill family who descended from Fir Ceara.

[Muireagain]

There is a McFadden 483194 who is BY11728+ and BY198-. That would make the FTDNA's halpograph tree below BY198+ suspect. However YTree uses BY11726 instead.

[RGM]

There is a McFadden 483194 who is BY11728+ and BY198-. That would make the FTDNA's halpograph tree below BY198+ suspect. However YTree uses BY11726 instead.

I'm confused. What does BY11728 have to do with BY198? They are separate subclades.

https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2661

[Muireagain]

It may have been a typo when I first used BY11728 in the above posts. FTDNA has its own SNP tree graph and commonly has difference with that of YTree. (FTDNA is more speculative in its use of SNPs.) I original had new FTDNA SNPs under BY198 that had yet to be shared with the YTree tree graph. So I had to use the FTDNA tree to place them and that is where the use of BY11728 came from. However reviewing the present FTDNA tree they are also using BY11726 and not BY11728.

[RGM]

It may have been a typo when I first used BY11728 in the above posts. FTDNA has its own SNP tree graph and commonly has difference with that of YTree. (FTDNA is more speculative in its use of SNPs.) I original had new FTDNA SNPs under BY198 that had yet to be shared with the YTree tree graph. So I had to use the FTDNA tree to place them and that is where the use of BY11728 came from. However reviewing the present FTDNA tree they are also using BY11726 and not BY11728.

Ah, I understand. BY11728 is one of my own SNPs, so I was worried I was missing something.

[GogMagog]

The majority of Egans are not M222, about 30% are. BY198? Now you are talking this is an area which needs investigating. O'Kelly doesn't crop up that much in DNA analysis of Egan. O'Mannion is indeed Soghain as are Lennon, Scurry and Ward.

[Dubhthach]

I'm not all together sure if Ward (mac an Bhaird -- son of the Bard) are actual Soghain. They held estates in land that was associated with the Soghain, but this could simply be due to fact that they were granted those by their overlords (Ó Ceallaigh of Uí Mhaine eg. O'Kelly) for services granted. I'd be curious what the likes of Mac Fhirbisigh had to say on the matter. Either way the surname is an obvious occupational one.

[GogMagog]

I am part Ward, Co Galway. They are Soghain.

[Colk]

Newcomer to this interesting forum. I am an Aussie Keegan, Family Tree DNA R-BY198, 742967, with my Keegan ancestor coming from Ballymacormick, Longford in 1834 where his father was a farmer.
I am awaiting results from BigY-500, due in November.

[Dubhthach]

Newcomer to this interesting forum. I am an Aussie Keegan, Family Tree DNA R-BY198, 742967, with my Keegan ancestor coming from Ballymacormick, Longford in 1834 where his father was a farmer.
I am awaiting results from BigY-500, due in November.

Good stuff, here's a tree made up of 9 BY198+ men who have done BigY, so make sure to post your results when they come in:
https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2343&star=false

With regards to your surname and Longford, I had a look at John Grenham's mapping of the Griffith Survey data from mid 19th century:
https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=keegan

Fair concentration of the surname in counties surronding Longford for example:
(number of households per county)
Longford: 47
Leitrim: 85
Westmeath: 140
Roscommon: 36

The highest number been in Westmeath (directly to South of Longford) and in Leitrim (directly to north of Longford).

[Colk]

Thanks Dubhthach, will post my results when available, was in Ireland last year and going back 2020. Beautiful, historically intriguing Country.

[Muireagain]

Added Keegan to the list:

BY198 - FGC40511 - BY11728 - BY21186 Knowles & Davis
BY198 - FGC40511 - BY11728 Egan(s) & Gallagher
BY198 - FGC40511 - Morgan(s) & Guinn
BY198 - BY20834 - BY21680 - BY21671 - BY21676 Larkin(s) from Lorrha and Meelick areas
BY198 - BY21680 - A15878 Dunn(s) & Kimball + McGrail
BY198 - BY21145 - BY21151 Heaney(s)
BY198 - Keegan

It seems that the Keegans may not be Egans as commonly claimed.

[Muireagain]

Noting Keegan 742967 is from Ballymacormick and the parish is home to Ballymakeegan, the Keegans must have some history with parish.

1591 Grant to Patr. M’Eagan, gent.; the office of seneschal of Correbeg alias Ballem’keagan · F, 5528
1602 Carrebeg (Teige M’Kiggane) · F, 6699
1602 Currabeg (Patr. M’Kigan, brehowne) · F, 6658
1612 ..the territorie of Corbegg containeth these 8 cartrons of free lands viz. Ballymackigan... Slake...Knockuck...Lismac-Iver...Farnagh · Inq. Lag., 3 Jac.1
1620 Ballimackigan (Anlone and Patrick McKigan) · CPR, 499b
1627 Ballymackegan (Patric’ Mc.Kegan) · Inq. Lag., 1 Car.1
1627 Ballenikegan (Patric’ Mc.Kegan) · Inq. Lag., 1 Car.1
1629 BallimcKegan · Cotton Map
1629 BallymacEgan (Anlon Mc.Egan) · Inq. Lag., 5 Car.1
1655 Ballimackegan · DS
c.1660 Ballymckegan · BSD, 150
1671 BallymcEgan and Lisduffe · ASE, 227
1685 Ballimckegan · Hib. Del.
1741 BallymcEgan · CGn., 100.141.69895
1745 Ballymackegan · CGn., 118.494.81627
1768 Bally McEgan otherwise Bally McKeegan · CGn., 269.71.171371
1813 Ballymakeegan · Edgeworth
1836 Ballymakeegan · Edgeworth Map (AL)
1836 A great portion of bog...on the south, the north is well cultivated there are a Danish fort close by the centre and another south west of the centre · Desc. Rem.:AL
1836 Baile Mic Thadhgáin, “Makeegan’s town” · OD:AL
1836 Ballymackegan · Inq. C I:AL
1836 Ballymackigan · Inq. J I:AL
1836 Baile Maceegan, “Makeegan’s Town” · Quinn, E.:AL
1836 Ballymakeegan · BS:AL
1908 Ballymacegan; Baile Mhic Thadhgain · MacGivney, 42
2007 /baliˑmaˈkiːgən/ · Áit.

[Muireagain]

Keegan in the 1659 'census':

Co. Longford:
Rathcleene Barrony: Keegan, 07
Shrowell Barrony: Keegan, 11
Moydowe Barony: Keegan, 007

Co. Westmeath
Fertullagh Barrony: Keegan, 06
May Cashell Barrony: Keegan, 13
Rathconrath Barrony: Keegan & Kigan, 014
Farbill Barrony: Keegan, 05
Kilkenny Barrony: Keegan, 12

Co. Roscommon
Athlone Barrony: McKigan, 6

[GogMagog]

30% of Egans are Egans. 70% took the name. Looking at the DNA page a higher figure seems to be the case for Keegan, looking at A738 Egan could have split 900 years ago, with a B11726 pos and neg section.

[Colk]

My thought is that Patr. M'Eagan of Ballem’keagan is my ancestor given the large number of Keegans in the midlands and that my ancestor Thomas Keegan farmed at Ballymacormick, County Longford.

Agree the Egans and Keegans in its many variations including the McKeegans derived from Mac Aodhagain as there is record of Margarie Keagan, 1624, granddaughter of John McKegan, the holder of Cloghowstnay Castle, Ormond, reference "Some Documents on Irish Law and Custom in the Sixteenth Century" K. W. Nicholls.

The split off between Egan and Keegan family branches is most likely as suggested by GogMagog.

[Colk]

Muireagain, your records of Ballymakeegan is very detailed and helpful.

Regards

[Muireagain]

Given that Egans of BY198 belong to a different branch of BY198 to Keegan. An assumption that the Egans and Keegans are from one MacAodhagain family, would require all surnames on the FGC40502 branch to be from/branch of MacAodhagain, i.e., Guinn, Morgans, Knowles, Gallagher and Davies. However I think this is unlikely. The Keegan were know locally as Ó Caogáin and not MacAodhagain. Great minds of nineteenth century might have thought the local's ignorant. And that Keegan was from MacAodhagain. However they were also conflict with some thinking Ballymakeegan was from Baile Mhic Thadhgain. Hence implying the the Keegan would be from Mac Tadhgain. If they were wrong about the origin of the MacGrail (i.e. claiming them to be Gallowglass from the Hebrides), then they are likely wrong about the Keegans.

[Colk]

Muireagan, there is similar reference to your point about Ballymakeegan listed in -

Carraig Mhic Aogáin
genitive: Charraig Mhic Aogáin
(Irish)

Carrickmakeegan
(English)

1836 Carraic Mic Thadhgain/ Cagadhain · OD:AL 'Mac Keegan's Rock'

Very interesting

[Muireagain]

Muireagain, your records of Ballymakeegan is very detailed and helpful.

Regards

The source: https://www.logainm.ie/en/33274

[Muireagain]

I looked at FTDNA date again:

BY198 10 Keegan

+FGC40502 1 Morgan
++BY11726
+++BY21186 2 Davis Knowles
+++Y66755 2 Egan Gallagher

+BY20834
++BY21680 1 Larkin
+++BY21673 1 Larkin
++++BY21672 2 Larkin Larkin
+++++BY21674 1 Larkin
++++++BY21671 1 Larkin
+++++++BY21676 2 Larkin Larkin
++Y36587 1 Martin
+++A15878 1 McGrail
++++A15876 Dunn
+++++A15877 2 Dunn Kimball
++++++A17851 Dunn
+++++++A17853 2 Dunn

+BY21145 1 Heaney
++BY21151 2 Heaney Heaney


Four Branches of BY198:

BY198> Keegan

BY198>FGC40502> Morgan
BY198>FGC40502>BY11726>BY21186> Davis
BY198>FGC40502>BY11726>BY21186> Knowles
BY198>FGC40502>BY11726>Y66755> Egan
BY198>FGC40502>BY11726>Y66755> Gallagher

BY198>BY20834>BY21680> Larkins
BY198>BY20834>Y36587> Martin
BY198>BY20834>Y36587>A15878> McGrail
BY198>BY20834>Y36587>A15878>A15876> Dunns (Kimball are sub-branch of the Dunn)

BY198>BY21145> Heaneys

[Colk]

Muireagain

Could you indicate what the 10 in BY198 10 Keegan indicates, please. This is very interesting.

[GogMagog]

Goggins a sub branch of Egan.

[Muireagain]

Muireagain

Could you indicate what the 10 in BY198 10 Keegan indicates, please. This is very interesting.

The numerical values are taken from the link found in your FTDNA account's homepage, i.e., "Public Halpotypes". If you enter 'R-BY198' in the Go to Branch Name", it will show the country of origin for those that have tested to that terminal SNP, for example BY198 shows 9 from Ireland and 1 Native American.

[Muireagain]

Goggins a sub branch of Egan.

I thought you tested negative for FGC40502?

[GogMagog]

It seems that Egan split early on. 900 AD, 1000 AD.

[Muireagain]

It seems that Egan split early on. 900 AD, 1000 AD.

I read in a recent book that "The descendants of Miles de Cogan, who came from Ireland in the reign of Henry II, all took on the name of Goggin, according to O'Donovan."

The entry at Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goggin) notes this and adds "In some cases it is a variant of the surname Coogan, and derived from the Irish Mac Cogadháin, meaning "son of Cogadhán". The Irish Cogadhán is diminutive form of Cúchogaidh, derived from elements meaning 'hound of war'". It is citing https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=Coogan.

If Goggin is from Mac Cogadháin (a name found in Co. Leitrim and Co. Meath), it seems very similar to Ó Caogáin which is anglicized Keegan.

Grenham Website has:
Cogan numerous: all areas except Ulster and Mid-West. Ir. de Cógan, Ó Cuagáin. Anglo-Normans who settled in Cork, the name also occurs as Coggan, Gogan and Goggin. Secondly, an Irish name synonymous with Coogan, q.v.MIF.

Coggin fairly rare: Sligo etc. A variant of Cogan, which itself, in that area, can stand for Ir. Mac Cogadhain as well as Ó Cuagáin and de Cógan. SI.

De Cogan Very rare: Cork. Ir. Lang. See Cogan.

de Cogán Cogan, Goggin: líonmhar seachas i gC. Uladh & an Meán-Iarthair. Tháinig Milo de Cogan le de Cléir (Strongbow) i 1170 agus fuair tailte fairsinge i gCorcaigh. Chlaochlaigh an sloinne go Gogán sa chaoi is go raibh Rath Gogáin ar an áit ina bhfuil Charleville anois. Chomh maith leis sin, tá na sloinnte Gaelacha Ó Cuagáin & Mac Cogadháin, a aistríodh go Cogan, ann. Féach orthu san, leis.MIF.

Mac Cogadháin Cogan, Coggin: cíosach annamh: Sligeach & rl. Clann a áitigh dúiche dar b'ainm Clann Fearnaighe i Liatroim. On ainm pearsanta Cúchogaidh. Litriú nua: Mac Cogáin. Féach Mac Cogaidhín.MIF.

27864

There seems to be three cluster for this name, Leitrim/Sligo, Cork and interestingly the intersection of Longford/Westmeath/Cavan and Meath.

[GogMagog]

Before DNA tests that would have been correct. The Goggin DNA study shows that 50% are de Cogans and the rest either Egans, McColkins and other families that either had a NPE via adoption, illegitimacy or simply a spelling mistake.

[Muireagain]

Before DNA tests that would have been correct. The Goggin DNA study shows that 50% are de Cogans and the rest either Egans, McColkins and other families that either had a NPE via adoption, illegitimacy or simply a spelling mistake.

The seems few actual Cogans within the Cogan project: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/cogan-project/dna-results

I see one Cogan (who gives his origin as France), two Coogan from Ireland, of which one conforms to the NW modal associated with being M222. The remaining are Coggin or Scoggin.

Maybe you have access to better sample, for I see hardly any testing amongst the De Cogan or O'Cogan families.

[GogMagog]

I wrote Goggin, not Cogan.

[Colk]

Interesting Muireagain, I found the following in "The Annals of Ireland [from A.D. 1171 to A.D. 1616] by Owen Connellan, Esq" -

Mac Cagadhain chief of Clan Fearmaighe a district south of Dartry and in the present barony of Dromahaire county of Leitrim This name has been anglicised Cogan or Coggan O Brien in his Dictionary at the word Eagan states that the Mac Egans were chiefs of Clanfearamuighe in Brefney hence Mac Cagadhain and Mac Eagain may probably have been the same clan.

[GogMagog]

You are probably looking at modern Cogavins and Keogans.

[Dubhthach]

So big news. FamilytreeDNA have recently updated their haplotree and BigY Block tree. It would seem that a new SNP called 'A18726' has been found that is upstream of both BY198 and A259 (along with smaller BY184425). This is rather interesting result as A259 appears to be linked to specific Connacht origin surnames (many of which have genealogical links to the Uí Briúin)

Looking at the BigY Block tree we can infer the following numbers when it comes to BigY tests: (Total DF105 BigY testers = 882)
DF85: 276 BigY testers = 31.29% of DF105 testers
S588: 166 BigY testers = 18.82% of DF105 testers
A18726: 146 BigY testers (112 of whom are A259, 28 are BY198 and 2 are BY184425) = 16.55%

In other words A18726 is the third largest clade of DF105, most of this of course is made up of the A259+ men who have done BigY but it would appear there are at least 28 BY198+ BigY tests in FTDNA database which is sizeable in it's own right.

[Colk]

Hi Muireagain

Just to muddy the waters on Keegan / Egan - History
The Ó Ruairc (O'Rourke) were kings in this region for many centuries. O'Finn and O'Carroll were chiefs of Cálraighe, which included the civil parishes of Drumlease and Killargy. The MacKenny's (Keaney) were chiefs in an area known as Muinter Mountains, or Muintir-Kenny, an older name for the barony of Dromohair. Originally known as the Mac Consnamha, the Clan Kenny was said to originate in the parish of Innismagrath. They later were known as Mac Kinnawe and still later changed to Ford. The Mac Cagadháin (MacEgan?) were chief of Clan Fear a Muige here.[2]

[GogMagog]

Dromohair is far from the Egan/Keegan homelands of Roscommon and Galway. An interesting point you make however.

[Dubhthach]

We do have some Ford/Fordes who are A259+/A260+ and share a number of BigY origin snp's with men bearing surnames O'Rourke and O'Reilly which would tie into the historic genealogy. Obviously those are BY198- results.

[Colk]

Muireagain, I have come across the following - The early sixteenth century

The next head of Muintir Tadhgan was Eoghan (Owen) Fox, son of Cairbre who was killed in 1500. The events of the previous century seemed to have been devastating to the Foxes. None of the annals make much mention the Foxes at all, and other sources must be turned to for information. Severely weakened by the deaths and murders of so many males in the line, as well as the confiscation of their property by other Irish clans, they were no longer the force they once were.

On 27 August 1526, The Fox appeared to have no choice but to sign a covenant with their neighboring clan, the Mageohegans, in which they agreed to live under Mageoghegan protection in exchange for accepting the Mageoghegans as their overlords. It was signed by Breasal Fox, who is identified as the The Fox in the document as well as being a son of Eoghan, and by two sons of "Edmond" Fox, though "Edmond" is likely a poorly anglicized form of the name Owen or Eoghan. These two other sons (brothers of Breasal) were named Muirchertach (Murray) and Felim (Felix). It was also signed by two sons of Brian (Bernard) Fox, one of them also called Breasal (Basil) and Cucogry (Peregrine) Fox. On the Mageoghegan side it was signed by their chief Connla Mageoghegan, lord of Kineleagh. It is worth noting here that Connla Mageoghegan married Amailin Fox, probably the daughter of Eoghan Fox, in Kilbride Abbey near Clara. The fact that the wedding took place in the Abbey in Clara points to a movement of the Fox senior family from Cloghatenny to Clara by this time. The covenant was witnessed by Thomas Buidhe O’Breen (Brien), chief of Breaghmhaine (Brawney) and by Murtagh M’Kegan, who was a brehon to the Fox clan (it is probable that an older form of this name was McEgan) and who owned land at Erry, a townland on the outskirts of Clara. The document was signed in the Mageoghegan residence at Syonan near Streamstown, a large tower house which is still standing today. As part of this document the genealogy of the Fox family is given from Niall of the Nine Hostages to the Breasal Fox, who signed the agreement. This article closes with the text of that document, the original of which has been reported to be in Trinity College Library:
Could the above reference to M'Kegan support your comments in the previous post?
Regards

[Muireagain]

Certainly interesting, I have always looking for a connection with the O’Muireagain of Cenel Tadgain.

[Colk]

An American Keegan has arrived Big Y700 as R-BY198, we are at GD 5 and have another American Keegan at Y111, GD 10 to me. Happy days.

[Colk]

Muireagain, have you seen this document? http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/clanmaclochlainn.com/ocleryin.htm

[Muireagain]

Muireagain, have you seen this document? http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/clanmaclochlainn.com/ocleryin.htm

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/clanmaclochlainn.com/uineill.htm contains pedigrees taken from 14th century manuscripts. O'Clery's Book of Genealogies is from the 17th century. If you want to did into it there are even older pedigree.

The issue is to link the different BY198 surnames to one branch of the massive Irish Pedigree tree.

[Muireagain]

Branches/Surnames of BY198 now are:

BY198> Keegan

BY198>FGC40502>A15872> Morgan
BY198>FGC40502>FGC40493> Quinn
BY198>FGC40502>BY11726>BY21186>BY60536> Knowles
BY198>FGC40502>BY11726>BY21186>Y85790> Davis
BY198>FGC40502>BY11726>Y66755> Waugh
BY198>FGC40502>BY11726>Y66755> Gallagher
BY198>FGC40502>BY11726>Y66755>Y70423> Egan

BY198>BY20835>BY20834> Edwards
BY198>BY20835>BY20834>BY21680> Larkins
BY198>BY20835>BY20834>Y36587> Martin
BY198>BY20835>BY20834>Y36587>A15878> McGrail
BY198>BY20835>BY20834>Y36587>A15878>A15876> Dunns (Kimball are sub-branch of the Dunn)

BY198>BY21145>BY21151> Heaneys

[Muireagain]

In the Life of Ciaran, the founder of Clonmacnois., Ciaran's parent flee to Rath Cremthainn (located on the plain of Muigh Ali in Co. Rosscommon.) Ciaran is educated at the church of Feurty in the northern part of Mag nAli. Tirechan, 7th-century Irish bishop from north Connacht, places the church amongst those of Ui Maine. Annette Kehnel writes that the Ui Maine territory must have include the whole of the Mag nAli. Mag nAli includes the royal center of the province of Connacht (home to the people of Conn of Hundred Battles), i.e. Rathcrogan.

The king of Connacht at the time of Ciaran birth was Crimthann. He is identified with Crimthann mac Lugaid mac Dallan, of the Ui Maine line. He is the ancestor of Clan Cremthainn, from whom descend the O Murchadhan (O'Morgan/O Murphy). The lands of Clan Cremthainn (home to my Morgans) is called in English 'Cruffon' and extended from East co. Galway to Southern co. Rosscommon. The MacEgans are also associated with Clan Cremthainn:

“The headship of every people who revenge the insults of Hy-Maine belongs to the Sil Crimthann Cael, i. e. to the Crumthanns and the Clann Aedhagain, and theirs is the privilege to array the battalions and go in the place of the arch-chief in the conflict. It is around the Soghans all assemble to the conflict, for they are the body i.e. phalanx of every battle-field to all.”

Annála Connacht: “1260.3, Macwilliam Burke made an expedition against Fedlimid [O Conchobair]. He came to Roscommon, from where he sent a raid into Cruffon, plundering the Clann Aedacain, and another into Tir Maine, plundering many of the household of the Bishop, for they were assembled(?) at that time at Erenagh. They sacked Roscommon and destroyed its corn, but did not dare to go further north on that occasion, since Fedlim O Conchobair and his son, Aed na nGall, were in the Tuatha and [others of] Connacht in their rear, in the waste land; so that both sides decided to make peace and Macwilliam went away afterwards.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/researching-rathcroghan-the-tara-of-the-west-1.2828490

[Colk]

Thanks Muireagain, as usual you have provided great material.

[Muireagain]

I think I know who we are, we are the Ui Máine. The O’Kelly of Ui Máine remains genetically a single family. For example the example the Maddens on the ytree site have to been original O’Kellys, because of the logic of their placement in the tree and not the separate line claimed for them In the pedigrees. Additional we and the Ai Briuin Ai are now forming our own branch. I believe the MacEgan authors of the major medieval pedigree books may have altered their pedigree and other after the appearance of the O’Kelly in the time of Brian Boru’s conquest of Ireland. He seems to have place new outside lineages on Cenel Eoghain, why not Ui Máine too?

[Colk]

Muireagain, how does this fit - http://burkeseastgalway.com/moran/
Cheers

[Colk]

Muireagain, check this out for Morgan - https://archive.org/details/reportofdeputyke1113irel/page/n43

[Colk]

Muireagain, sorry, Page 37, Paragraph 63

[FionnSneachta]

I think I know who we are, we are the Ui Máine. The O’Kelly of Ui Máine remains genetically a single family. For example the example the Maddens on the ytree site have to been original O’Kellys, because of the logic of their placement in the tree and not the separate line claimed for them In the pedigrees. Additional we and the Ai Briuin Ai are now forming our own branch. I believe the MacEgan authors of the major medieval pedigree books may have altered their pedigree and other after the appearance of the O’Kelly in the time of Brian Boru’s conquest of Ireland. He seems to have place new outside lineages on Cenel Eoghain, why not Ui Máine too?

By saying 'we are the Ui Maine', are you suggesting that the FGC6545 Kellys are not Ui Maine? At what point do you think the O'Kelly pedigree was altered? Do you think that 18. Tadhg Mór O'Kelly d. 1014 who fought alongside Brian Boru was given a fictitious pedigree? The O'Kellys had control of a lot of the Uí Maine territory anyway. That hasn't been falsified. I'm not sure what the purpose would have been to intentionally falsely link the Kellys with Naughton, O'Malley, Egan and Madden families. The Keogh line is present on the Big Tree which arises at generation 29. as a descendant of 25. Domhnall Mór O'Kelly d. 1224.

However, I don't think the absence of other surnames excludes FGC6545 of being the 'true' Uí Maine. There is plenty of opportunity for branching upstream of BY3442. Surnames were only introduced in the around the 800s so there must be other families who are connected who didn't take the Kelly surname even if it does turn out in the future that the Kellys match families not associated with Uí Maine. The vast majority of Kellys on the Big Tree website have tested by chance indicating that they must have been a prominent family going by the sheer number of descendants who have happened to test. A Kelly with an unbroken pedigree showing links to Uí Maine has tested as FGC6545 positive. Out of the surnames Keegan, Morgan, Guinn, Knowles, Davis, Waugh, Gallagher, Egan, Edwards, Larkins, Martin, McGrail, Dunns and Heaneys, I only know of Morgan, Larkin and Egan associated with Uí Maine.

[Colk]

Hi FionnSneachta
From Family Tree DNA - Sons of Aodh
!!!!!!!!!!,,DCG R1b-DF104 > R1b-DF105 > R1b-A18726 > R1b-BY198 - Dál Cuinn, Clanda Eochada Muigmedúin, Uí Briúin, Cenél Unknown
742967 Keegan Edward Keegan b. 1809 Mullaghmore Co Longford, Ireland - R-BY198

[GogMagog]

Are Egan really Ui Maine? Originated in Derry, 100AD, thence to Tara, 400AD. Move to County Galway, but also nearby, "north" and "south" branches of (Mac)Egan.

[FionnSneachta]

Are Egan really Ui Maine? Originated in Derry, 100AD, thence to Tara, 400AD. Move to County Galway, but also nearby, "north" and "south" branches of (Mac)Egan.

There are different origins for Egan. There isn't just one Egan family. From the Sloinne website:


1. Son of aodhagán' (a diminutive of aodh); the name of a distinguished brehon family. they belonged originally to the district of ui maine in connacht; but in the 14th and 15th centuries, branches of the family settled in ormond, desmond, and many other parts of ireland, where they became brehons to the local chieftains. they also kept schools of law, and many learned men and eminent professors of the same name are mentioned in the irish annals, (Sloinnte Gaedheal is Gall )

2.Descendant of aodhagán' (diminutive of aodh); the name (1) of an oriel family who, in the 10th and 11th centuries, were lords of dartraighe, in co. monaghan, and of ui niallain, in co. armagh, and to which belonged ivor o'hegan, the tutor of st. malachy and founder of the church of ss. peter and paul at armagh; and (2) of a family of ely-o'carroll, in the present offaly. this surname, owing to the different dialectical pronunciations of the syllable 'aodh,' is variously anglicised in different parts of ireland. in ulster, it frequently became Ó faodhagáin (which see), anglicised fegan, (Sloinnte Gaedheal is Gall )

A chart of the Uí Maine families shows that an Egan family arose at generation 17. where Maine Mór is generation 1. The most recent McEgan given is 23. Maelisa Ruadh McEgan who died in 1317. Here's a pedigree of Egans: https://www.libraryireland.com/Pedigrees1/Egan-1-Heremon.php The pedigree isn't the exact same as the chart that I have but a lot of the names do match up. The pedigree linking Egans to Kellys is from very early times so it's to be expected that neither may be fully correct or possibly even completely incorrect.

Edit: Why did you think that Egan originated in Donegal? I haven't come across that anywhere.

[Colk]

I have the O'Kegan and M'Kegan reference in the Fiants - Elizabeth, 1551 as being pardoned as families associated with the Sionnach (Fox) in the midlands. Also I have matches at YDNA 67 @ 111 with Egan, Eagan and Keegan from Co Cavan, Co Longford, Co Limerick and Lorrha, Co Tipperary (Egan # 2 & 3). The greater percentage of Egans / Keegans at the Family Tree DNA Egan are DYS449 =27. One Keegan and one Egan and myself are tested to BigY700 and are Keegan = R-BY198 and Egan downstream at R-Y66755. More testing required.

[GogMagog]

1. The main family is the MacEgan of Galway one, 2 is O'Hagan (Armagh area) and 3. looks to be Fegan (and/or O'Corcoran). My Donegal quip was due to Niall Noigiallach and Conn of the Hundred Battles.

[FionnSneachta]

1. The main family is the MacEgan of Galway one, 2 is O'Hagan (Armagh area) and 3. looks to be Fegan (and/or O'Corcoran). My Donegal quip was due to Niall Noigiallach and Conn of the Hundred Battles.

Looking at FTDNA, there are about 9 different Egan groups so there are more than just 1 origin for the surname anyway without looking at dictionary entries. The surname originates from a first name so there is bound to be more than 1 origin for the name.

[GogMagog]

There are only 2 Egan groups. 1. The M222 royal line. 2. Others, polygenetic, Vikings, NPEs, suchlike.

[FionnSneachta]

There are only 2 Egan groups. 1. The M222 royal line. 2. Others, polygenetic, Vikings, NPEs, suchlike.

Looking again, I see that group 2 with BY198 has been sub-divided. However, there is one other large group 1 that has been sub-divided into 4 groups. I also see a group 'Egan cross Ely Carroll' with two testers being FGC63582+ which is possibly the third group from the Sloinne website. In relation to the Egans being originally from the north, that doesn't disagree with Egans being Uí Maine. Maine Mór who founded Uí Maine was supposed to have originally been from the north before travelling to Connacht.

It is possible that the genealogies are wrong and that the Egans and Kellys were unrelated but both families still belonged to the kingdom of Uí Maine. Another possibility could be if an NPE occurred between generation 9. Dicholla and generation 15. Murchadh O'Ceallaigh or generation 17. Flann McEgan. It could be possible that Uí Maine Egans still have to purchase the Big Y. Whatever the case may be, the BY3437+ Kellys definitely appear to be of Uí Maine due to a tester with a pedigree and others with family histories linking them to Uí Maine. I see that 4 other Egans are in the 'Egan - Kelly' group. It would be interesting to know what their Big Y results would be. There is currently a BY3437+ Egan but that seems too recent to be a descendant of generation 9. when BY347+ already represents 25. Domhnall Mór O'Kelly. It would be interesting to see what other surnames turn up as closely related to the BY3437+ Kellys in the future. There are 7 SNPs in the block above BY3437 so plenty of opportunity for branching in the future.

[GogMagog]

I am reticent about ascribing Egan to Kelly. Group 1 are unrelated (not Egans) Group 2 subdivides but that is due to the Administrator of the page deciding to split it into 2a, b and c. In fact 30% of Egans are royal, the other 70% are unrelated - Agin, Egan (O'Corcoran) and others.

[Colk]

Nice work GogMagog, I have a Keegan match in America, GD 5 @ BigY700 (R-BY198) and given the amount of DYS449=27 in Group 2 would like to see more testing. My interest is the evolution of the name Keegan and so far have traced back to the Fiants - Elizabeth, 1551 pardons to M'Kegan and O'Kegan and others associated with the Fox Clan (Brassell Shynnagh) who lived in the midlands.
https://archive.org/details/reportofdeputyke1113irel/page/n43
which ties in with the large concentration of Keegan families in the 1657 Census living in the south and east of County Longford and Westmeath.
Cheers

[FionnSneachta]

I am reticent about ascribing Egan to Kelly. Group 1 are unrelated (not Egans) Group 2 subdivides but that is due to the Administrator of the page deciding to split it into 2a, b and c. In fact 30% of Egans are royal, the other 70% are unrelated - Agin, Egan (O'Corcoran) and others.

That is understandable since there hasn't been any DNA evidence to link Kellys and Egans. Why are Group 1 sub-divided if they're unrelated? I would have thought that Group 1 are all related but within the sub-groups, they're more closely related. That's generally the reason that administrators create sub-groups. Looking at Group 1's STR values here https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ClanEgan?iframe=yresults, they are all quite similar which to me would suggest that they are related. For example, I looked at two random people within Group 1 and they were a genetic distance of 2 to each other at Y-67. The members of Group 1 definitely looked related to me based on their STRs. There looks to be two large Egan groups (Group 1 and Group 2).

[Colk]

FionnSneachta From Y-Utility:Y-DNA Comparison Utility
http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html
Y-DNA111
Egan - Group 2 combined
My (742967) most closest 199262 - 5GD = 300years
most distant 49625 & 118647 - 18GD = 1080years.

[FionnSneachta]

FionnSneachta From Y-Utility:Y-DNA Comparison Utility
http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html
Y-DNA111
Egan - Group 2 combined
My (742967) most closest 199262 - 5GD = 300years
most distant 49625 & 118647 - 18GD = 1080years.

Okay I know that Group 2 are related to each other. I'm not disputing that. However, I'm making the point that Group 1 are related to each other as can be clearly demonstrated in the tool that you linked.

[Colk]

FionnSneachta All good

[GogMagog]

Keegan is simply Egan (MacEgan, MacKeegan). Most Keegans seem to be Egans.

[GogMagog]

No, Group 1 a are one group (NPE?) Group 1 b are the "Chiefs" group (O'Corcoran) and Group 1 c a mismash.

[GogMagog]

Which proves there was a hell of a split 1080 years ago.

[GogMagog]

Look at the 15-16-16-17 signature, it is M222, shorthand, if you aren't 15-16-16-17 then you aren't Egan (royal line via Niall Noigiallach, Conn of the Hundred Battles).

[FionnSneachta]

No, Group 1 a are one group (NPE?) Group 1 b are the "Chiefs" group (O'Corcoran) and Group 1 c a mismash.


Look at the 15-16-16-17 signature, it is M222, shorthand, if you aren't 15-16-16-17 then you aren't Egan (royal line via Niall Noigiallach, Conn of the Hundred Battles).

I do think that group 1a are Egans and not the result of an NPE. They don't have to be related to the 'Royal' M222 line to be a true Egan. There was probably more than one Egan progenitor. There is no reason that another family couldn't have decided to take on the surname Egan after an ancestor named Aodhagáin. Just because you aren't of the royal Egan line, doesn't mean that you're not an Egan. The same for Kellys. It's not a case of there just being the one Kelly line of Uí Maine line while the rest aren't Kellys but rather a result of an NPE. The other Kellys are likely named after their own ancestor named Ceallach rather than being an NPE.

I'm not sure why the last post was titled 'And the bad news is...' I'm not an Egan so it doesn't affect me one way or another. I only have a 3rd great grandmother who was an Egan. However, as stated before, I do dispute saying that 'if you aren't 15-16-16-17 then you aren't Egan' since Group 1a seems to suggest that there is another separate Egan line that I don't see why it would have to be the result of an NPE.

[Colk]

I'm 15-15-16-16 and very happy to be a Keegan. At least that was the name of mine and my American Keegan cousin's most recent common ancestor 300 years ago in Ireland.
Cheers

[GogMagog]

I am 15-16-16-17 and of the royal Egan line, ta ta.

[FionnSneachta]

I am 15-16-16-17 and of the royal Egan line, ta ta.

Yes, I already know that you are BY198 and descend from Egans. Is the theory of the royal Egan line based purely on surnames. I read a mention of an Egan having a pedigree. Is that where the certainty is coming from if an Egan with a pedigree connecting him to a royal line has had a Y-DNA test?

[MacUalraig]

All I can see at that link is a bunch of 32 samples with a grand total of zero SNP tests between them?

[FionnSneachta]

All I can see at that link is a bunch of 32 samples with a grand total of zero SNP tests between them?

I'm guessing that you're referring to Group 1 on the DNA results page. It is a wonder that not one of them has decided to do SNP testing. Without SNP testing, it doesn't reveal any information as to who might be their closest surname matches other than Egan or allow any branches to form. Looking at their STR results though, they do definitely seem to be connected to each other since a lot of the values are the same with only small differences. For what it's worth, Nevgen predicts an unsupported subclade at 50.6% or 47.9% for R1b U106>Z381> Z156>DF98> S18823 for the only tester in the group who went to Y-111 so an unsupported subclade is looking most likely.

[MacUalraig]

I'm guessing that you're referring to Group 1 on the DNA results page. It is a wonder that not one of them has decided to do SNP testing. Without SNP testing, it doesn't reveal any information as to who might be their closest surname matches other than Egan or allow any branches to form. Looking at their STR results though, they do definitely seem to be connected to each other since a lot of the values are the same with only small differences. For what it's worth, Nevgen predicts an unsupported subclade at 50.6% or 47.9% for R1b U106>Z381> Z156>DF98> S18823 for the only tester in the group who went to Y-111 so an unsupported subclade is looking most likely.

Yes Group 1. I thought everyone in M222 understood the total necessity of SNP testing by now - this lot clearly don't.

[GogMagog]

Pedigrees are funny beasts, the "Chief" has one with a 4 generation gap (useless in other words). My theory is that Group 2 are Egan's and Group 1 are a collection of folks who adopted the name (much as Scots Clans have lineal descent Campbells, MacDonalds, Fergusons and those who took, or were given the name).

[FionnSneachta]

Pedigrees are funny beasts, the "Chief" has one with a 4 generation gap (useless in other words). My theory is that Group 2 are Egan's and Group 1 are a collection of folks who adopted the name (much as Scots Clans have lineal descent Campbells, MacDonalds, Fergusons and those who took, or were given the name).

Is the 'Chief' BY198 positive? Out of curiosity, does his pedigree (ignoring the 4 generation gap) show a link with Kellys or is he even meant to be Uí Maine? I'm just curious if his pedigree is a different version to what the Kellys have. I know that these pedigrees can't always be taken at face value but I'd be interested to know anyway.

[Colk]

Nice if I could nip back and get a dna sample from one of the following - Annals-of-Clonmacnoise
P29 - mckiegan of Scotland
P63 - the mcEgan elder than Madden or Neaghten - not of the Three Collas
P278 - John mc Kiegan O'Connor's chiefe judg
P280 - Moyle Issa Roe mc Kiegan' (Footnote m'Kiegan.—Or MacEgan. This seen in the Annals F.M.
Cheers

[GogMagog]

To the best of my knowledge he is an O'Corcoran. Nothing to do with Egan or Kelly.

[GogMagog]

McKeegans (McKiggans) of Uist interest and intrigue me. Sept of Clan Donald but we think that they are northern McEgans.

[FionnSneachta]

To the best of my knowledge he is an O'Corcoran. Nothing to do with Egan or Kelly.

The Egan FTDNA Background (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/clan-egan/about/background)page gives Dr. Michael J.S. Egan as the clan chief. He is also recorded here (http://www.clansofireland.ie/baile/content/mac-egan-hy-many-mac-aodhag%C3%A1-u%C3%AD-maine) which records the clan as Mac Egan of Hy Many. I don't know why the Egan clan chief would be O'Corcoran. The clan website (http://www.clanegan.org/heritage/Aodhagain/index.html)linked on the FTDNA page only discusses the Egans of Hy Many descended from Cairbre Crom.

[Colk]

I am a bit lost as to the reference to O'Corcoran in all this.

[Colk]

Yes, I think the Egan focus is a bit centalized on The Redwood Castle as being home to the Egans. Who came first the chicken or the egg. MacAodhagain > MacEgan
M'Kegan
O'Kegan
Egan
Keegan

[GogMagog]

From what I gather his Great Grandfather made himself Chief after the famine, DNA shows that his line is actually O'Corcoran. Certainly under Scots law he would lose the Chiefship. Now to Clans of Ireland it is a "nice little earner" and like most things here in Ireland totally bent.

[FionnSneachta]

From what I gather his Great Grandfather made himself Chief after the famine, DNA shows that his line is actually O'Corcoran. Certainly under Scots law he would lose the Chiefship. Now to Clans of Ireland it is a "nice little earner" and like most things here in Ireland totally bent.

Ah okay, thanks for clarifying. That makes sense. It just turned out that his paper trail doesn't match his DNA.

[Colk]

Thanks GogMagog and FionnSneachta for your contributions above, makes a lot of sense to me when I crunch the numbers into the tool - http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html
By the side I visited Longford, long way from Oz (pardon the pun) in 2017 and was told that the region was not a place of Keegans. I had done a bit of research before going there and was aware of Ballymakeegan and the Fiants of Elizabeth - 1551 pardons to the O'Kegan and M'Kegan of the Fox Clan.
Can I share a response I posted on a County Longford Genealogy Site on returning home that was quicky removed as I guess I may have offended some good folk. So much for the Irish humour!!!
AN OPEN LETTER TO MY IRISH MOB (Keegan Relatives)
Warning contains Aussie slang and meaning following in ( ).
G’day (hello) I’m an Aussie (Australian) Keegan who travelled to Longford in 2017, the Back of Bourke (a very long way) and spent a Squillion (lot of money) including DNA testing to find out about my Mob (Ancestors).
Well I’ll be Buggered (surprised) even though I found out there were Keegan Cockies (farmers) all Around the Ridges (in and nearby) of County Longford in the early 1800, I ended up with Bugger All (not much) information.
Far Out (disbelief) for the Moolah (money) spent, it looks like there is Buckley’s Chance (no hope) of finding my Mob. Deadset (true) it would be a Ripper (great) thing if I heard from an Irish Keegan, otherwise I may as well Hit the Turps (alcohol) and then I might end up a Dipstick (loser) Dero (tramp).
Just in case one of my Rellies (relatives) reads this, Fair Dinkum (true) I promise I will not come after your Patch (land) or your Goodies (your possessions) as I am not a Tea Leaf (thief). I also will not try to Crack Onto (romance) any of your Sheilas (women) when I Rock Up (return) to Longford next year (2020).
I really hope this note brings some news on my ancestors and the whole exercise doesn’t turn out to be as useless as an ash tray on a motorbike, if you know what I mean.
I’ve got to Cut for it now (go)
Col Keegan

[GogMagog]

She'll come good Bluey.

[FionnSneachta]

I think that sometimes when people come to Ireland from abroad to find relatives, there can be the impression here that people from America, etc. seem to think that they're related to everyone who shares their surname that they come across. Funnily enough, my great uncle who's elderly now and lives in England often comes out with these comments now that would make you think that he had never lived in Ireland. He'll see a surname in the news and say, 'Oh they must be of the same family as those from such a place.' It's not that there's any fear someone's looking for money, land or anything but rather that people who come to Ireland sharing a family name are just strangers really who we don't really have much to talk to about other than small talk.

I remember around two years ago a man came visiting from America to find Irish relatives. He went to the townland where his ancestor came from and went around to the houses looking fo someone who shared his ancestor's surname. He was convinced that he was related to us but we tried to explain that there were two different families in the same townland that shared the same surname. We were trying to explain that he must be related to the other family who used to live in the townland since the paper trail didn't match up. He couldn't be convinced. He even insisted on taking a picture of my cousin, a 'real life Irish relative'. She was just at home in her trakkies without any make-up on. He came to Ireland and wanted to be able to say that he found Irish relatives, regardless of whether or not it was actually right.

I don't give much heed to matches that share my surname since it's so common. I know so many with my surname who are unrelated. I notice that my dad's Y-DNA matches take much more notice of their autosomal matches that share their surname. They don't seem to realise how common our surname is with many different families sharing the same surname. One of the Y-DNA matches tracked down a second cousin of mine on Facebook who I mentioned before. He wanted to get in touch siblings, first cousins, second cousins, etc. who were descendants of my direct paternal line ancestors but was flabbergasted when he saw that she had more 100 friends with the same surname as me. Of course, the vast majority of these matches are in no way related to her. As gently as possible, I tried to explain that my relatives on Facebook probably wouldn't be very interested in becoming friends on Facebook with a stranger from the US who claims to be a distant cousin.

Whenever I mention to my dad about being in touch online with a distant relative like a 4th cousin, etc. that wants to meet up, he usually responds that he's hardly in contact with his own first cousins never mind distant relatives. We're just surrounded by distant relatives already that we already know about that we don't feel the need to seek them out to meet up. In school I was in the same year as five relatives ranging from a first cousin to a 4th cousin. We were only really acquantances and barely spoke to each other. I spoke to my first cousin the most and that was mainly due to us being in a lot of the same classes together and I just happened to be put sitting beside her in History. My dad will go along with meeting up with distant relatives from America, etc. who want to meet up for the sake of hospitality but doesn't really get it. I just joke that they went to meet a 'real life Irish Kelly.' I'm amazed at how many people in America, etc. are interested in tracking down relatives in Ireland to meet up with. I was always just curious about who my ancestors were and their story and what happened to their siblings rather than actually meeting up with relatives. It's one of the risks of making contact with relatives online when wanting to find out genealogy related information :P. They'll probably eventually want to come to Ireland and meet up! My aunt who is also into genealogy had a busy summer meet relatives on her and her husband's side of the family who were coming to Ireland and wanted to meet up.

[Colk]

Nice one FionnSneachta and reminds me of playing golf with an Irishman from Dublin at Rosslare (great links course) week one of my 2017 holiday and he said to me "There are two types of Irishmen, those who want to be and those who are" enough said. Cheers

[slievenamon]

I remember around two years ago a man came visiting from America to find Irish relatives. He went to the townland where his ancestor came from and went around to the houses looking fo someone who shared his ancestor's surname. He was convinced that he was related to us but we tried to explain that there were two different families in the same townland that shared the same surname. We were trying to explain that he must be related to the other family who used to live in the townland since the paper trail didn't match up. He couldn't be convinced.

I believe the truth of why these folks are so thick is in the above quote.
These days, it's all about the DNA.
Everyone's gotten a DNA kit as a gift for Christmas or a birthday.
That's all there is to it. Right?
Paper trail? What's that?
Today, they have matches.
Skewed, perhaps, but matches in their eyes!
Many have created 'internet' genealogies.
Cherry pick your pedigree and print it.
Voila!

Sorry for your troubles...

[Colk]

All I can say is that my visit to the Republic and its beauty was striking. Did run into a Keegan by mistake at Egan's Hotel in Tullamore by mistake and we had a short chat, no follow up since then. As well as fishing in the Atlantic Ocean at Dingle and Playing gold at most SE (Rosslare) most SW (Ceann Sibeal (Dingle)) and most central (Tullamore), I just had a ball. As a matter of fact I had my own pre-trip Lent without a drop of grog for 3 months. Can you imagine the taste of my first pint of Guinness in Templebar. Next year I will take in the North and play most NE & NW golf courses and might even walk up St Patrick's Hill. Given that our country is ablaze with bushfires at the moment, I'll paste a little poem about Aussie weather conditions written by an Irish Diaspora, about 120 years ago.

Said Hanrahan
PJ Hartigan © by John O'Brien
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan in accents most forlorn,
Outside the church, ere Mass began one frosty Sunday morn.
The congregation stood about coat-collars to the ears,
And talked of stock, and crops, and drought as it had done for years.
"It's looking crook," said Daniel Croke; "Bedad, it's cruke, me lad,
For never since the banks went broke has seasons been so bad."

"It's dry, all right," said young O'Neil, with which astute remark
He squatted down upon his heel and chewed a piece of bark.
And so around the chorus ran, "It's keepin' dry, no doubt."
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan, "Before the year is out."
"The crops are done; ye'll have your work to save one bag of grain;
From here way out to Back-o'-Bourke they're singin' out for rain.

"They're singin' out for rain," he said, "And all the tanks are dry."
The congregation scratched its head, and gazed around the sky.
"There won't be grass, in any case, enough to feed an ass;
There's not a blade on Casey's place as I came down to Mass."
"If rain don't come this month," said Dan, and cleared his throat to speak -
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan, "If rain don't come this week."

A heavy silence seemed to steal on all at this remark;
And each man squatted on his heel, and chewed a piece of bark.
"We want an inch of rain, we do, "O'Neil observed at last;
But Croke "maintained" we wanted two, to put the danger past.
"If we don't get three inches, man, or four to break this drought,
We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan, "Before the year is out."

In God's good time down came the rain; and all the afternoon
On iron roof and window-pane it drummed a homely tune.
And through the night it pattered still, and lightsome, gladsome elves
On dripping spout and window-sill kept talking to themselves.
It pelted, pelted all day long, a-singing at its work,
Till every heart took up the song way out to Back-o'-Bourke.

And every creek a banker ran, and dams filled overtop;
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan, "If this rain doesn't stop."
And stop it did, in God's good time; and spring came in to fold
A mantle o'er the hills sublime of green and pink and gold.
And days went by on dancing feet, with harvest-hopes immense,
And laughing eyes beheld the wheat nid-nodding o'er the fence.

And, oh, the smiles on every face, as happy lad and lass
Through grass knee-deep on Casey's place went riding down to Mass.
While round the church in clothes genteel discoursed the men of mark,
And each man squatted on his heel, and chewed his piece of bark.
"There'll be bush-fires for sure, me man, there will, without a doubt;
We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan, "Before the year is out."

Cheers for now.

[Muireagain]

In MacLaig’s early 11th century poem starting “The blessing of Abruin be upon Brighit” or “bennacht Abruin ar Brighit".

https://archive.org/details/zeitschriftfrce00meesgoog/page/n236.

It names early 11th century members of Ui Maine that recovered his cattle form a raid across the Shannon. It names a Tadg mac Éidigáin.

In the paper “In the shadow of a high-king’: Tadg Mór Ua Cellaig and the Battle of Clontarf”, Dr Joe Mannion writes:
“Mentioned in one of these poems are leading individuals such asGadra, king of Síl Anmchada, Tadg mac Éidigáin of Clann Diarmada, Tadg Echtge UaConaill of Cenél Fhéichín, Aed Ua Donnchada of Uí Cormaic Máenmaige, and an unidentified Cathal amuigh a Máenmach”

He has connected “Tadg mac Éidigáin” with “Clann Diarmada”. If so, it seems Tadg could well be a son of Aodhagain of Clann Diarmada, i.e., the founder of the MacEgans.

(there is also the line: “Glantar sciath Éidigháin úais, nIr Díall éceandáil da éis, ní targa a tír Maine meand óglach bud fear tar a eis.” In the additional poem “Let the King of Gaela’s shield be burnished”.)

[Colk]

Gents - Interesting there are now two Egan and two Keegan men FTDNA BigY tested to R-BY198/A738. I have also been allocated R-BY198 on YFull.

[Colk]

Given how little the testers of Clan Egan have undertaken high level YDNA or SNP tests, I have run Groups 1 and 2 through NevGen Predictor and have the following results -
Egan - Kelly - R1b L21>DF13> Z39589>DF49>> ZP75
Egan cross Ely Carroll - R1b L21>DF13> DF21>S5488>> Z16281
Group 1 - R1b U106>Z381> Z156>DF98> S1911
Group 1b - R1b L21>DF13> DF21>FGC3213> ZZ1> S5459
Group 1c - R1b DF27>ZZ12> ZZ19>Z31644> BY2285
Group 1d - R1b L21>DF13> ZZ10>Z253> S847
Group 2, 2b, 2c - R1b L21>DF13> Z39589>DF49>> M222 > A18726 > A738/BY198. Note: Each of these Groups include BigY700 to A738/BY198 or downstream.
Group 2d DYS 449=30 - R1b L21>DF13> Z39589>DF49>> M222 > A18726 > A259. Note: This Group has a BigY700 tester to A259.

[GogMagog]

I am Group 2 which has the Niall signature .

[Colk]

GogMagog, I have attached - https://www.academia.edu/10364576/Identifying_Y-Chromosome_Dynastic_Haplotypes_The_High_Kings_of_I reland_Revisited?auto=download&email_work_card=download-paper
Check out Appendix and we in Group 2 are close to both Sixty-seven STR Uí Néill and Ua Conchobhair Modal Haplotype, except we are STR, DYS449=27. Not sure if we are either of those, but we are for sure R-A18726 > A738/R-BY198.

[Colk]

GoGMagog, are you DYS717=20?

[GogMagog]

Thanks for the Maglio paper! I only did 67. Don't know what my value is for DYS717. I am BY198 however.

[dsherry]

I am only just seeing this, but A18726 is a SNP that several members of the Munnelly DNA group share. Though there is a story that the founding member of the family was a Doherty from Donegal (a close DNA match remains to be found), the preponderance of Munnellys, Monnellys, etc. have lived in the northern half of Mayo in recorded times.

[[email protected]]

If only it was this easy for all -

BY198 by other than BigY700 or BY198 SNP Test
1/ Must be downstream of A18726
2/ At Y37 must have DYS449=27, + or - 1
3/ At Y111 must have DYS717=20, note M222 has DYS717=19.

Results from the Clan Egan public accessible Project of which I co-administrate.
BY198 Group that meets the BY198 STRs including BigY700 testers.

Total=93 testers
Egan/Keegan=72 testers

Bigy700 confirmed BY198 testers=17 testers
BigY700 confirmed BY198 testers Egan/Keegan=8 testers.

At Y37
DYS449=27 in 84 testers
DYS449=26 in 5 testers
DYS449=28 in 4 testers
At Y111
DYS717=20 in all 11 testers

[GogMagog]

My guess is that the BY198 Egans's are the real - royal MacEgans.

[Cejo]

Just wanted to share some things I've been thinking about regarding A738+, specifically through a Larkin lens, with apologies. I'd appreciate any comments! Ultimately just trying to get this story right for the kids.



Based on y-DNA evidence, the Larkins of Ui Maine appear to be largely A738+, which in turn appears to be most closely related to, or descended from, or originally part of the Ui Bruiun families of Connacht. Geographically, the Larkins are linked to Meelick.

By the time of the earliest histories, the lands around Miloc, or Meelick, were part of Connacht. They would have been on the fringes of the kingdom, but it was central to multiple avenues of commerce, and relatively close to several important sites, including Clonmacnoise, Rathcrogan, and the Hill of Uisneach. There are marshlands, and multiple peat bogs, and a few decent farmlands, but drainage is generally poor.

Meelick survives as the name of a townland in what is now at the very eastern corner of Co. Galway, an area that became known as Longford Barony. It became the site of a church, but it was likely important through antiquity. There were two large islands there, and it was a place where conditions were well suited to fording the Shannon.

It was an ideal location, and the inhabitants built crannogs there, and controlled the crossing, and even extended their lands across the river into what is now part of County Offaly, the area between Banagher, Birr, and the border with Tipperary. The crannogs were considered highly defensible as late as the 1300s, though that didn't end well, so it was by then perhaps a misconception. However, it would certainly have been formidable and effective all the way through the Viking era, and it likely had a great amount of influence over the immediate area. As such a suitable site, I would be surprised if it hadn't been home to crannogs at least intermittently, going all the way back through the bronze age.

Not only did Meelick overlook a ford across the Shannon, it was also near the Esker Riada, a line of hills caused by expanding and retreating glaciers that served as a sort of natural informal "road" of slightly raised land across the otherwise boggy interior of Ireland. This was the only real east-west corridor, but it extended roughly from Dublin to Galway, roughly following the present-day M6 highway, and it was likely used for about as long as humans populated Ireland.

Clonfert, a monastery, was on their lands. This was a major center of learning, attracting scholars from all over. Clonmacnoise, one of the most important monasteries of early Ireland was just up river, on the other side, in Ui Neill territory.

Rathcrogan, the oenach place of Connacht, was 30 miles north, a decent hike, but by no means distant. The Hill of Uisneach, the mythological and symbolic center of Ireland, is also only 30 miles northeast of their lands. At its greatest extent, the kingdom extended north all the way to Lough Ree, a mere 15 miles west of Uisneach; the entire stretch of the Shannon River's west bank, from Lough Derg to Lough Ree was their territory, and Meelick was the caput, or main seat.

But eventually, their power decreased, or conflict amongst the Connachta left them vulnerable, or anyway the situation changed, and turmoil in the north drove another group of families south, and the precursors to the O'Kelly and O'Madden and others from Tirmany and Omany conquered Miloc, or Sil Anmchadha, and others.

The genetics show that the Ui Maine are not related to the A738+ families, and the Ui Maine lines have their own very discrete, somewhat distant, and very old lineage. They are relatively distant from both Connachta and Ui Neill. It seems that the genealogies that came down to us were fabricated to reflect the political reality rather than the genetic one. The Larkins are not related to the Maddens, and neither of them are related to the Ui Neills.

The A738+ were likely conquered by the Ui Maine in the 500's. They may have kept Meelick, or perhaps this is when they built a church there and became church men, a position they figured they could monopolize. But whatever the case may be, the proto-O'Maddens built their own fort, instead of taking Meelick for themselves.



As an aside on the Madden caput, Longford townland is likely the site of a viking-style longphort, and clearly where the Barony (Longford) eventually got its name from, but the Maddens also had a fort at nearby Tiranascragh, a name that means something like meeting place near the Esker (with apologies to any Irish speakers if that's cringey).

The longphort was likely built later, during their association with Brian Boru and the wars with the Vikings in the late 900's into the 1000's. But it seems that the people who became the O'Maddens and O'Kellys had already been in place, and Sil Anmchadha had been part of Ui Maine for hundreds of years prior to Brian's era.

When the O'Maddens came into power, it was still the proximity to the Esker Riada that was important to emphasize, so Tiranascragh was their caput. When fighting the vikings much later, this may have changed.

Closing down the Shannon would have been critical to Brian's efforts. He built a fort at the end of Lough Derg, and his own navy of viking-style ships. These ships would have required ports, and we possibly find one in Longford townland. This was O'Madden territory, directly adjacent to Tiranascragh, and it was basically just on the other end of Lough Derg. It would have been an ideal place to beach a fleet of longships, and may have been part of why it was important for Brian to bring in Ui Maine as allies.


At any rate, the A738+ hadn't been completely displaced when they were conquered (in the 500's), but they probably were diminished at least somewhat in status. Instead of serving their Connacht overlords directly, which may have been the case previously, they now served the O'Kelly overlords indirectly, through the O'Maddens, etc. Ui Maine itself was a client kingdom, much of the time.

There is some reason to believe the A738+ had been fairly prominent prior to the invasion. One reason to believe this is that Meelick was the seat of Sil Anmchadha, and the Larkins are closely associated with Meelick, or at least they seem to have thought they were. It was used as their ancestral burial ground, and an unfinished wing was dedicated by a Larkin.

It stands to reason that if Meelick was the ancestral home of the A738+ Larkins (and I'm not expert enough to know if that's conclusive, but that evidence seems fairly convicing), and Meelick was also the capital of the ancient petty kingdom (which is conclusive), then perhaps the A738+ families may have once controlled what became known as Sil Amnchadha. Perhaps they are the ones who were conquered when Ui Maine invaded. This becomes a very reasonable proposition when you consider who their relatives are, over there in A260.

There are also other examples of ousted families going on to serve another as ollam, and we know that many years later in the year 1490, a Larkin was intended as ollam to O'Madden. He seems to have died prematurely, perhaps leaving them without an ollam and lending significance to the event, such that it made it into the annals. The position tended to be hereditary due to monopolies on training and education, and the Ui Maine regime remained largely unchanged for hundreds of years. It seems reasonable to assume that the Larkins may have held that position the whole time, as well. This would have provided some authority and continuity for the Maddens. Given the deep roots the Larkins likely had (with family and clients of their own probably everywhere), it was probably impractical to try and remove them.



The genetic variation of the Larkin lineage is itself pretty high, implying age, and it seems to have split from A738 around 550. Interestingly, the Eagans who are quite closely related within A738 are another line of brehons, and they lived literally just across the river. The Eagans established a brehon school at Redwood Castle in the 1300s, and this is less than 2 miles from Meelick. They clearly had access to knowledge, and this would have been something they had hoarded for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

This points to a scenario where they started out as one family that controlled both sides of the ford. The fact that they were both of the 'brehon caste' suggests that their status may predate the familial split. The split itself seems likely to have occurred at least before the adoption of surnames, but probably even before then, perhaps in the 500's, when Ui Maine invaded.

I'm not expert enough with interpreting these things, but it would make sense to me that a split would eventually show up in the genetics after something as major as an invasion. It would also make sense to me that the lineage would become less homogeneous, and that it would also become geographically more disbursed. While clearly not all A738+ were displaced when Ui Maine invaded, it would make sense if some were. It would also make sense of some of them ended up in places other than Connacht, given an origin near the borders.

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More speculation:

We have "Macolicum" on Ptolemy's map of Ireland. James Ware in 1654 (in his De Hibernia et antiquitatibus eius disquisitiones) seems to have thought this was Meelick.

Over the years, scholars have proposed many other locations, and I'm not necessarily trying to make the case that Meelick = Macolicum.

What I am saying is that, at a minimum, we can infer that in 1654, learned antiquarians like Ware (and he evidently collaborated extensively, so it likely wasn't his opinion alone) thought it was reasonable to think that Meelick had been known in the Eastern Mediterranean.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00750770801909375

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ware_(historian)
https://www.historyireland.com/value-free-history-the-scholarly-network-of-sir-james-ware/