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Bollox79
09-01-2016, 02:58 PM
I was discussing this in the Bell Beaker thread, but did not want to hijack the original post, so I started an additional thread here! I know these samples/paper (the Romano-British, one Iron Age, and one Anglo-Saxon) were already discussed, but I'd like to discuss some more with anyone who is willing to discuss or interested in the subclades of U106 found in the York samples. In particular I wish to discuss 6drif-3... basically my MDKA to date since I'm only a few SNPs (two or three?) away from him in common with my modern day matches (some from British Isles - one from Sweden with MDKA around 1734). The MDKA ancestor is important to me considering dating, SNP dating, spread etc of the sub group since the British Isles descendants know their ancestor came from "somewhere" in Britain (or possibly France) and the Swede is certainly from outside of Stockholm circa 1734 death of MDKA.

6drif-3 was positive for DF98 (which is commonly associated with the Royal House of Wettin)... but was negative for the sub group (I call it Wettin's side of DF98) called S18823 which clusters mainly along/around the Upper Rhine. He was positive for the brother/sister clade of S18823 called S1911. Currently that clade and it's sub clades are dominated by mainly British (especially Scottish, Northern English and Irish samples) with a tentative connection to France around the S1911 level. Also in S1911 is the very possible descendants of Odard de Dutton born? Normandy and settled at Dutton in Cheshire - both the Dutton and Warburtons match each other SNP wise in a time table/dating that appears to support their descent from Odard or there abouts.

Any speculation/discussion is welcome... as I bore my friends with this stuff, but I'd like to talk to some people who share the same passion for this. Additionally to the discussion "Is U106 only Germanic, or are parts Celtic" etc (to sum up a complicated topic with a simple title)... I think with any haplogroup and especially sub groups and lineages and paternal male lines, you need to trace those particular lines as best as you can (hopefully matching some ancient remains like I got lucky and matched like 6drif-3) to give context... as you can't assign such an old Y-DNA marker like U106 to "one" group... it's entirely possible for our male ancestors have been a part of a "Germanic" culture and then a "Celtic" culture... we know they moved around and adopted cultures...

For those of you who are interested in the DF98 sub clade of U106 here is a great pdf by Dr. Iain McDonald. Pages 10 and 11 have nice maps of established European samples (so samples who know where their MDKAs came from, and not an American like me who only knows my Weaver ancestor most likely came from Northern England/Scotland possibly as an Ulster Scot to Pennsylvania)... http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/kings-cluster.pdf

Look forward to the discussions!

Slainte mhor!

ADW_1981
09-01-2016, 03:14 PM
(In my view), some of the Celtic tribes of Belgium were likely responsible for bringing U152 and U106 a bit later to Britain. L21 seems to be more concentrated in NW France where the earlier (Celtic?) tribes hopped the channel. Perhaps "Belgium" already hosted the L21 men, but incursions of Germanic brought U106, and Celts further west in Central Europe brought U152. The latter two groups probably arrived there after the initial L21 settlements who seem more concentrated in the west of the UK/Ireland.

Helgenes50
09-01-2016, 03:22 PM
L21 seems to be more concentrated in NW France where the earlier (Celtic?) tribes hopped the channel

Without ancient genomes, difficult to know whether L21 was present in NW France, i.e. in Armorica before the arrival of the Britons, or if this one has been boosted by them

ADW_1981
09-01-2016, 03:37 PM
Well we've seen with Rathlin genome that it's L21. Best estimate is that it crossed from NW or NE France... Halstatt Celts had much less influence in Britain and arrived later...more likely a DF27 or U152 signature IMHO. Germanic influence in Belgae could have brought U106 to Britain.

Dewsloth
09-01-2016, 04:00 PM
Thanks for making this thread! 6DRIF-23 is somewhere along my tree; maybe not as close as your headless horseman ;) but at least past DF19>DF88 to Z17110/S4268 (I'm Z17112, down a bit past S4268). I don't know who or how one would go about getting more specific information on him besides what Alex wrote here:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6263-Genomic-signals-of-migration-and-continuity-in-Britain-before-the-Anglo-Saxons&p=135901&viewfull=1#post135901

I have taken a look at the R-L52+ guy, 6DRIF-23. I hadn't see anything posted about him yet, but I could be mistaken.

He is:
P312+ (1A)

Z4161+ (1C) - This is a DF19 equivalent

S4274+ (1A) - This is a DF88 equivalent
S23780+ (1T) - This is a DF88 equivalent

S4268+ (2A) - This is a Z17110 equivalent (at least on my tree)
22299057(C->G)+ This is in DYZ19, generally shows as mixed derived/ancestral - Z17110 equivalent (at least on my tree)

He looks to be negative for Z17109 which I had as equivalent to Z17110.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=965

From what I understand, the R-DF19 project has over 130 BigY kits, which is far more than what I have. I haven't seen their tree, but I'm curious how they divide up this block. 6DRIF-23 may be positive for other SNPs downstream of S4268 on that tree.

Alex

Bollox79
09-01-2016, 04:02 PM
as an aside - concerning the Driffield Estate cemetery through the Roman period based on funeral monuments/tombstones that have been found there through the years (the ones that were recorded anyway and that I could find record of...) - I made a list. Appears it was favored by the military for burials... according to the inscriptions found there. This is a list of what I found researching all the funeral monuments/tombstones found around Eboracum/York. I tried to limit it to only material found on or very near the Driffield Estate in York (area of both 3 and 6 Driffield Terrace cemeteries...)

Roman Tombstones and/or funeral fragments found on the Mount - on or very near Driffield Terrace

(72) A inscribed tombstone found in 1911 while digging for a drain at the Mount School near Driffield Terrace: Tombstone of Lucius Baebius Crescens from Augusta Vindelicorum (modern day Augsburg), soldier of the Sixth Legion Victorious, Loyal and Faithful. 43 years of age and 23 years of service – enlisted when he was 20. His heir has this tombstone made for his friend.

(77) A inscribed tombstone found in 1859 used as a cover/lid for coffin number 103 on Driffield Estate, the Mount. It says “To the spirits of the departed. To Flavia Augustina. She lived 39 years, 7 months, 11 days. Her son,.... nius Augustinus, lived 1 year 3 days, .... lived 1 year, 9 months, 5 days. Caeresius [August]inus, veteran of the Sixth Legion Victorious, had (this stone) made for his dearest wife and himself.”

(81) Tombstone fragment (Fig. 84), of gritstone, 1 ft. by 1 ft. 4 ins. by 6 ins., comprising the bottom of the relief and part of the first two lines of the inscription, together with the left-hand top corner of the die. The relief shows on the left a pet dog crouching left and, on the right, the lower part of a bust of Julia Secunda, holding another creature now indistinguishable. From the Driffield Estate, The Mount.

(82) Tombstone (Plate 55), of gritstone, rectangular, 3 ft. 3 ins. by 4 ft. 9 ins. by 9 ins. An architectural frame encloses a round-headed niche in which is a relief of a funeral feast; in the spandrels are pine-cones. Below the relief is the inscription in a simple moulded sunk panel. The central figure of the relief is Julia Velva, whose head, with hair parted in the middle, and torso are alone visible, reclining on a couch and propping her head on her left arm, which rests on a cushion. She holds a wine jar in her right hand. The couch has a very thick mattress, high sides and legs knobbed at the top but otherwise plain. In front of the couch, left to right, are shown a young girl seated on a basket chair and clasping a pet bird, a three-legged table on which are dishes of food, a boy standing with his right hand on the table and holding a jug in his left, while Aurelius Mercurialis, bearded, stands in front of a larger table with claw feet, and holds a scroll in his right hand. Found in 1922, in making Albemarle Road, 15 yds. from The Mount. It says “To the spirits of the departed and to Julia Velva. She lived 50 years, most dutifully. Aurelius Mercurialis, her heir, had (this tombstone) made. He made it while alive for himself and his family.”

(86) Tombstone fragments (Plate 52), two, of gritstone, adjacent and measuring together 1 ft. 9 ins. by 1 ft. 4 ins. by 7 ins. The inscription is in a moulded panel, with a small relief of a porpoise in the field above. From the Driffield Estate, The Mount.

(87) Tombstone fragment (Plate 52. Fig. 85), of gritstone, 1 ft. 8½ ins. by 1 ft. 3½ ins. by 5½ ins., with relief above and inscription below, both in panels with simple moulded frames. Of the relief only the end of a scroll or piece of strapwork remains, and part of the M of D.M., of the inscription only the end of the first and second lines. Found on the Driffield Estate, The Mount (see Burials, IV Region, (m)). D(IS)] M(ANIBVS)/ ...... VIVS ▵ FE/ ....... VS/ ..... CIL, 259; YMH, 62.

(88) Tombstone fragments (Plate 52. Fig. 85), two, of gritstone, 1 ft. 1 in. by 1 ft. and 1 ft. 4 ins. by 1 ft. 8 ins., both by 7 ins., with the inscription in a sunk panel with a moulded frame. From the Driffield Estate (Driffield and Dalton Terraces) on the N.W. side of The Mount. It says “'To the spirits of the departed.... Manlius Crescens, son of..., from ... ..... a, veteran of the Sixth Legion Victorious, Ca . . . Pri. . . . and M. . .” There is hardly room for the tribe as well as the filiation of Crescens, and his origo must have been a short name, such as Parma. The two names below are presumably the nomen and cognomen of one heir followed by et, which would introduce the name of another. CIL, 259a; EE, III, 79; YMH, 51.

(91) Tomb Tablet fragment (Plate 52), of gritstone, 2 ft. 4 ins. by 2 ft. 7 ins. by 8 ins., with the inscription in a moulded panel, bordered by ansae designed in a variant pelta-pattern with goose-head terminals. Found in 1852 at Driffield Terrace, The Mount. It says “To .... son of Caius, of the Claudian tribe from Novaria .... of the Ninth Legion Hispana. His freedmen heirs made (this tomb) for a well deserving patron.” The voting-tribe of Novaria was the tribus Claudia. There is no room on the stone for a cognomen, and this is an example of its absence after A.D. 70.

(95) Tombstone (Plate 53), of gritstone, 2 ft. 6 ins. by 3 ft. 10 ins. by 7 ins., the inscribed lower part missing. In a niche, formed by a shouldered arch and architectural frame, stands a male figure, wearing a tunic and cloak and holding in his left hand a scroll, in his right a vine branch, symbol of a centurion. The feet are broken away. In the spandrels of the arch are rosettes and above its crown is a bull's head with sacrificial fillets. There are mortice holes in each side of the stone, for fixing it into a monument. Found in 1852 in Driffield Terrace at a depth of 3 ft. to 4 ft. – part of a Centurion’s tombstone/funeral monument.

(99) Tombstone fragment (Plate 54), of gritstone, 10 ins. by 12 ins. by 4 ins., with part of a relief showing a leg from below the knee with a sandalled foot. The attitude suggests a rider and the object with two borders behind the leg may be a saddle-cloth. Found before 1860 in Driffield Terrace or Dalton Terrace, The Mount. Piece of an auxiliary cavalryman’s tombstone?

(103) Coffin (Plate 57. Fig. 86), of gritstone, 7 ft. 4 ins. by 2 ft. 3 ins. by 2 ft. 4 ins. The inscription is contained in a moulded panel on the long side of the coffin, flanked by the letters D. and M. each beyond bracket-like scrolls. Found in 1859, in Dalton Terrace (N.G. 59355108) (see Burials, IV Region, (m), vi). The coffin had been reused for a male burial in gypsum, and the tombstone of Flavia Augustina (see No. 77) formed its lid. The lettering showed traces of original red paint, now blotted out by a modern substitute. “To the spirits of the departed (and) to the good lady Aelia Severa, once the wife of Caecilius Rufus. She lived 27 years 9 months and 4 days. Caecilius Musicus his freedman placed (this monument).' Mommsen (Strafrecht, 1035, 5) observes that honesta femina might apply to the wife or daughter of a Decurion/cavalry officer.

108) Coffin (Plate 56), of gritstone, 4 ft. by 1 ft. 10 ins. by 1 ft. 4½ ins. with a ridged lid 9 ins. high. Matching recesses indicate where the lid had originally been clamped. The coffin when found, N.W. of The Mount, on the railway line S. of Holgate railway bridge (N.G. 59155120), had been reused for the burial of a child older than the inscription indicates. To the spirits of the departed. For Simplicia Florentina, a most innocent soul, who lived 10 months, Felicius Simplex, her father, of the Sixth Legion Victorious, made (this memorial).' The LEG · VI · V has been added to the inscription as an after-thought in a much less monumental style of lettering, a centurial sign being added before PATER.

(109) Coffin (Plate 57. Fig. 86), of gritstone, very much broken, 6 ft. 10 ins. by 2 ft. 3 ins. by 2 ft. 3 ins. Found at the beginning of the 19th century between The Mount and Driffield Terrace. To the memory of Valerius Theodorianus, of Nomentum. He lived 35 years, 6 months: I, Theodora his mother, bought (this coffin) for his sake.' A fragment of another inscribed stone now supports the left-hand end of the coffin.

(112) Coffin fragment (Plate 56), relief of gritstone, 11½ ins. by 17 ins. by 4 ins., from the right-hand edge of the front. A naked amorino, with feathered wings, turns half right, with arms poised to support the ansa or pelta bordering an inscribed panel now missing. Found in 1860, near The Mount.

(116) Head (Plate 63), of a man, slightly smaller than life size, 7 ins. by 5 ins., in limestone; it is broken off just below the nose. The work is vigorously carved; the protuberant ears, prominent high cheek-bones, and hair swept to a fringe are reminiscent of the style and period of the tombstone of Duccius Rufinus (No. 75). Found on Driffield Estate, The Mount (see Burials, IV Region, (m)). It was probably from a funerary monument.

(117) Bust (Plate 62), of a man, approximately life size 18 ins. high, in gritstone. It is heavily weathered, but has the look of a portrait-bust. Found on Driffield Estate, The Mount (see Burials, IV Region, (m)). It was probably from a funerary monument.

(120) Sphinx (Plate 62), funerary, of gritstone, 1 ft. 3 ins. by 2 ft. 6 ins. by 1 ft. 8 ins. The creature is conceived as a nude crouched female, with melancholy upward gaze half-left. Her hair hangs in six tresses, divided over the shoulders and back. The breasts are prominent, and wings and a long tail complete the figure. The hands and feet are missing, together with the front of the pedestal. There is no inscription, contrary to previous fancy. Found in 1852, in Driffield Terrace, The Mount.

Radboud
09-01-2016, 04:04 PM
The interesting thing about the R1b U106 gladiators(3DRIF-16/3DRIF-3) is that they show high affinity to Poles/Lithuanians. More so than the other Roman-British samples.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/LiKxwR-tSqw4O9Co6wDEVn5slZ_0PIS273bLpZ1mye7TTrPBQmycqA_2F AgCesdGAnv1dC4yGN2yUCo=w1920-h955-rw



England_Roman 0.869
Swedish 0.131
chisq 1.784 tail prob 0.775339

England_Roman 0.884
Polish 0.116
chisq 1.971 tail prob 0.741124



It looks like they were Britons with significant Continental admixture. Big chance is they had ancestry from Scandinavia and/or eastern central europe.(eastern Germanic-Briton mix maybe?)

Bollox79
09-01-2016, 04:15 PM
[QUOTE=Dewsloth;183854]Thanks for making this thread! 6DRIF-23 is somewhere along my tree; maybe not as close as your headless horseman ;) but at least past DF19>DF88 to S4268. I don't know who or how one would go about getting more specific information on him besides what Alex wrote here:

You are welcome Dewsloth!!! I thought it would just be fun to discuss the a) samples found in Driffield and their DNA groups and b) additional speculation about their occupations etc... even though I have spoken to Kurt Hunter Mann (the lead archaeologist on the dig) and his first hypothesis is strongly based on the fact that it appears some (or all?) were gladiators because of the one guy who was buried with leg irons (though no shackle per x-ray for attachment of chains - which is strange - why put irons on someone if they don't retrain their movement... more of an annoyance... probably symbolic in nature) and also the clearly carnivore bite marks on the other guy, plus the over all amount of evidence for interpersonal violence overall compared to other Romano-British cemeteries. His 2nd interpretation would be soldiers of some type etc.

For my matching 6drif-3... Alex was able to figure out we match on some FGC SNPs I had named per my results from Big Y... My newest match is from Sweden and he and I match a couple additional SNPs past 6drif-3 (though remember 6drif-3 was no call for this FGC14840 I share with the Swede - possibly a coverage read issue - and may or may not have been positive as I understand it)... so I have done a lot of research on Romans and burials and sharp blade trauma etc in the period in Britain in addition to the DNA bit...

Yeah the most info we have on 6drif-3 is the same as your guy... it's what Alex found in the file in addition... and he is added to Dr. Iain's pdf... he's referenced on page 6 of the King's Cluster pdf... Iain listed the no calls and positives... also a break down of MDKAs of our groups around there... quite a nice pdf and I'm lucky to have Iain in my group ;-). http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/kings-cluster.pdf

Refresh my memory for me... which one was 6drif-23? He was buried in the three man burial with the horse bones correct? I know that 6drif-3 (and 6 - they were buried in coffins next to each other) were about 6 feet away from that mound burial with the horse bones. 6drif-3 had a cremation burial (the only one found in 6 driffield?) on top of/in his grave... his skull was in the wooden box in which they buried the cremated remains... the archaeologists were unsure why they didn't just chuck his skull... why re-bury it with the cremation? Out of respect? Brought status to the burial? Remains a mystery and why I like to discuss it ;-).

Bollox79
09-01-2016, 04:19 PM
I also wonder about that Radboud: you said "It looks like they were of Britons with significant Continental admixture. Big chance is they had ancestry from Scandinavia and/or eastern central europe.(eastern Germanic-Briton mix maybe?)."

I wonder what groups could have brought that mixture... either through the Baltic to Northern England... or down into the Rhine area/Low countries and over with the Romans etc... it must mean something to have that show up in the mixture... :-).

Dewsloth
09-01-2016, 04:20 PM
The interesting thing about the R1b U106 gladiators(3DRIF16-3/3DRIF16-3) is that they show high affinity to Poles/Lithuanians. More so than the other Roman-British samples.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/LiKxwR-tSqw4O9Co6wDEVn5slZ_0PIS273bLpZ1mye7TTrPBQmycqA_2F AgCesdGAnv1dC4yGN2yUCo=w1920-h955-rw




It looks like they were of Britons with significant Continental admixture. Big chance is they had ancestry from Scandinavia and/or eastern central europe.(eastern Germanic-Briton mix maybe?)

Well the FTDNA DF19 folks had estimated S4268 splitting at around the 2nd Century AD in southern Denmark/northern Germany region.
I'm thinking 6DRIF-23 was probably from that region. It was mentioned that recruits tended to be posted away from their home territory, so that would be consistent.
IIRC, the original isotope study findings on him were inconclusive with him being from either England or the continent.

Part-skeletons of horses were deposited with a number of burials, including
6Drif-24 and 6Drif-21, the individuals with the lowest and highest δ
18Op, respectively, but
also with the isotopically less remarkable 6Drif-23, for whom an upbringing in York is
unlikely but who may well have come from Eastern England or an area with similar water
values on the European continent or beyond (see above). If anything, it was therefore not a
common origin, but rather the diversity of their backgrounds which was the defining feature
for the Driffield Terrace Group

Chad Rohlfsen
09-01-2016, 04:26 PM
People came to Britain from all over. Remember, the LBA/EIA grave in Kent had several individuals from Scandinavia.

Dewsloth
09-01-2016, 04:46 PM
People came to Britain from all over. Remember, the LBA/EIA grave in Kent had several individuals from Scandinavia.

Well yeah, but you can practically see Scandinavia from your house in York. One of the Driffield skeletons came all the way from the southeastern Palestine/Jordan/Syria edge of the empire.


They report that six of the skeletons have DNA matching people living in modern-day Wales. But to researchers’ surprise, one of the men came from a long way away—the other end of the Roman Empire, in fact.

“The nearest genetic matches were from Palestine or Saudi Arabia,” Bradley says. “He definitely didn’t come from Europe.”

To confirm the DNA results, Gundula Müldner of the University of Reading analyzed chemical signatures in the skeleton's teeth for clues. The differences between this sample and the others were dramatic.

Picture of Roman-age skeletons from Driffield Terrace laid out in York's Guildhall

“This Near Eastern chap really, really stands out. He was from somewhere arid and hot,” she says. “Where he fits best is the Nile Valley or an environment like that—we can’t pinpoint it exactly, but somewhere in the Near East.”
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/01/160119-gladiator-headless-skeletons-dna/

Bollox79
09-01-2016, 04:48 PM
Also I often wonder about all the trauma on these guys and whether it was all recorded... as this is 6drif-3's pathology:

Schmorl’s nodes T4, T6-12

Cleft in the superior left apophyseal facet of S1, dividing the posterior inferior corner from the rest
of the surface. Possibly traumatic/ developmental

Cribra orbitalia, bilateral

Slight cranial border shift at thoraco-lumbar border –right apophyseal joint between T11-12 tending towards a lumbar shape; left side thoracic in shape

Elongated deposit of lamellar bone along the superior half of the gluteal lines of both femora,
occupying the area of the hypotrochanteric fossa; possibly related to muscle attachment

Excavated muscle attachments both tibia – soleus

Avulsion fracture of the styloid process of R MC3

Possible avulsion fracture/ developmental anomaly of right navicular –tuberosity flattened and surface rough & porous

Possible decapitation C4-5; possibly two separate cuts

C4 – linear cut that has removed a sliver of bone from the anterior half of the inferior body surface,
angled slightly superior left to inferior right

C5 – 1) linear cut that has penetrated the lamina inferior to the superior right apophyseal facet; the
superior fragment is detached and present, apparently fractured at the anterior margin rather than
cut; left half of neural arch lost post-mortem. Cut angled f
rom posterior
-inferior to anterior-superior (broadly parallel with the inferior right apophyseal facet), & possibly delivered from
behind

2) possible second cut just superior & parallel to cut 1 that has removed the superior margin of the
right lamina, terminating posterior to the superior apophyseal facet

Right ulna – possible peri-mortem butterfly fracture through the midpoint of the shaft. The
proximal and distal halves each have a curved break through the shaft with the posterior side
projecting further (i.e. both halves nearly meet at the posterior margin); the gap between the two
break surfaces on the anterior margin is roughly 30mm. The V shaped segment of bone that would
have occupied the gap has been lost post-mortem. The break surfaces are slightly roughened & the
same colour as the rest of the bone cortex.

What you don't see written on this report, but can clearly see (and it's discussed in Gladiators: Back from the Dead program) is that 6drif-3 had sharp blade trauma on his right ulna also - two or even three cuts with the one close to his elbow very deep in the bone)... I figured that out per the butterfly fracture/parry fracture and from reading his pathology and watching the program a few times.

For Dewsloth: 6drif-23's pathology if you haven't already seen it...:

Schmorl’s nodes T10 & L3
Excavated muscle attachment both humeri –pectoralis major (bilateral); teres major (left side); left fibula – soleus

Series of four cuts to C2-5 & mandible; full decapitation at C5 (cut at C2 may not have severed head completely

C2 – 1) linear cut that has removed the inferior surface of the body and right lamina (fracture of
anterior third of body). Cut angled superior right to inferior left; corresponds to cut 1 to C3 & cut
to right gonial angle of mandible
2) linear cut that removed a sliver of bone from the inferior surface of the left lamina; corresponds
to cut 2 on C3

C3 – 1) linear cut that has removed the superior quarter of the superior left apophyseal facet; cut
angled posterior
-inferior to anterior
-superior; corresponds to cut 1 on C2
2) linear cut inferior to cut 1 that has removed a sliver of bone from the super
ior margin of the left
lamina, terminating just medial-posterior to the superior left apophyseal facet; delivered from
behind, presumably angled superior-right to inferior-left
3) linear cut that has removed the lateral inferior margin of the inferior right apophyseal facet
(probably did not penetrate completely through the medial part of the facet); cut angled slightly
superior right to inferior left & delivered from behind; corresponds with cut on C4

C4
– shallow linear cut (2mm long) lateral to the inferior border of the superior right apophyseal
facet; corresponds with cut 3 on C3; delivered from posterior right

C5
– linear cut that has removed the inferior surface of the body, angled posterior-inferior to anterior
-superior (possible fracture of anterior body). The angle of the cut was such that the
inferior right apophyseal remained unscathed. Presumably would have cut through C6 – but C6 lost post-mortem

Mandible

has a cut penetrating 17mm into the posterior surface of the right ramus located 12mm
superior to the gonial angle; fracture line continues from the anterior margin of the cut to the
inferior margin of the mandible (separating the fragment of gonial angle from the rest of the
mandible); probably correlates with cut 1 on C2 & C3

Bollox79
09-01-2016, 04:49 PM
These guys were beat to shit... that's for sure ;-).

Bollox79
09-01-2016, 04:53 PM
Yes concerning Driffield Isotopes and migrants etc... when I looked at a list of isotopes from the medieval cemetery (or early medieval - Northumbrian times) of Bamburgh Castle - Bowl Howl cemetery - the isotopes there showed some signs of migration possibly (it was a religious site also), but when compared to Driffield isotopes - yes Driffield appears more in line with say Catterick cemetery... more movement and variation in isotopes.

for a very nice list of British cemeteries from different periods and the isotopes found there... check out this link. It discusses it and has a nice list at the end... http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/17976/1/Evans%20Chenery%20and%20Montgomery%20%20for%20NORA %20.pdf

mouse
09-01-2016, 06:37 PM
The interesting thing about the R1b U106 gladiators(3DRIF-16/3DRIF-3) is that they show high affinity to Poles/Lithuanians. More so than the other Roman-British samples.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/LiKxwR-tSqw4O9Co6wDEVn5slZ_0PIS273bLpZ1mye7TTrPBQmycqA_2F AgCesdGAnv1dC4yGN2yUCo=w1920-h955-rw




It looks like they were Britons with significant Continental admixture. Big chance is they had ancestry from Scandinavia and/or eastern central europe.(eastern Germanic-Briton mix maybe?)

http://eurogenes.blogspot.ie/2016/01/ancient-genomes-from-iron-age-roman-and.html.

They could have got the Continental admixture from their mothers just like the DF21 Rathlin Islanders.

Dewsloth
09-01-2016, 06:51 PM
http://eurogenes.blogspot.ie/2016/01/ancient-genomes-from-iron-age-roman-and.html.

They could have got the Continental admixture from their mothers just like the DF21 Rathlin Islanders.

I think we can assume with some certainty that mothers didn't bring S4268, though. ;-)

Captain Nordic
09-01-2016, 07:41 PM
(In my view), some of the Celtic tribes of Belgium were likely responsible for bringing U152 and U106 a bit later to Britain. L21 seems to be more concentrated in NW France where the earlier (Celtic?) tribes hopped the channel. Perhaps "Belgium" already hosted the L21 men, but incursions of Germanic brought U106, and Celts further west in Central Europe brought U152. The latter two groups probably arrived there after the initial L21 settlements who seem more concentrated in the west of the UK/Ireland.

L21 is clearly more concentrated in Britain/Ireland (Especially Ireland) than in Brittany:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/L21-S145-poE-CT.png
11312
And like Helgenes said, without ancient genomes, we can't say if L21 was even present in NW France before the arrival of the Britons.

Dewsloth
09-01-2016, 08:30 PM
as an aside - concerning the Driffield Estate cemetery through the Roman period based on funeral monuments/tombstones that have been found there through the years (the ones that were recorded anyway and that I could find record of...) - I made a list. Appears it was favored by the military for burials... according to the inscriptions found there. This is a list of what I found researching all the funeral monuments/tombstones found around Eboracum/York. I tried to limit it to only material found on or very near the Driffield Estate in York (area of both 3 and 6 Driffield Terrace cemeteries...)

Roman Tombstones and/or funeral fragments found on the Mount - on or very near Driffield Terrace

(72) A inscribed tombstone found in 1911 while digging for a drain at the Mount School near Driffield Terrace: Tombstone of Lucius Baebius Crescens from Augusta Vindelicorum (modern day Augsburg), soldier of the Sixth Legion Victorious, Loyal and Faithful. 43 years of age and 23 years of service – enlisted when he was 20. His heir has this tombstone made for his friend.

(77) A inscribed tombstone found in 1859 used as a cover/lid for coffin number 103 on Driffield Estate, the Mount. It says “To the spirits of the departed. To Flavia Augustina. She lived 39 years, 7 months, 11 days. Her son,.... nius Augustinus, lived 1 year 3 days, .... lived 1 year, 9 months, 5 days. Caeresius [August]inus, veteran of the Sixth Legion Victorious, had (this stone) made for his dearest wife and himself.”

(88) Tombstone fragments (Plate 52. Fig. 85), two, of gritstone, 1 ft. 1 in. by 1 ft. and 1 ft. 4 ins. by 1 ft. 8 ins., both by 7 ins., with the inscription in a sunk panel with a moulded frame. From the Driffield Estate (Driffield and Dalton Terraces) on the N.W. side of The Mount. It says “'To the spirits of the departed.... Manlius Crescens, son of..., from ... ..... a, veteran of the Sixth Legion Victorious, Ca . . . Pri. . . . and M. . .” There is hardly room for the tribe as well as the filiation of Crescens, and his origo must have been a short name, such as Parma. The two names below are presumably the nomen and cognomen of one heir followed by et, which would introduce the name of another. CIL, 259a; EE, III, 79; YMH, 51.

(91) Tomb Tablet fragment (Plate 52), of gritstone, 2 ft. 4 ins. by 2 ft. 7 ins. by 8 ins., with the inscription in a moulded panel, bordered by ansae designed in a variant pelta-pattern with goose-head terminals. Found in 1852 at Driffield Terrace, The Mount. It says “To .... son of Caius, of the Claudian tribe from Novaria .... of the Ninth Legion Hispana. His freedmen heirs made (this tomb) for a well deserving patron.” The voting-tribe of Novaria was the tribus Claudia. There is no room on the stone for a cognomen, and this is an example of its absence after A.D. 70.

(95) Tombstone (Plate 53), of gritstone, 2 ft. 6 ins. by 3 ft. 10 ins. by 7 ins., the inscribed lower part missing. In a niche, formed by a shouldered arch and architectural frame, stands a male figure, wearing a tunic and cloak and holding in his left hand a scroll, in his right a vine branch, symbol of a centurion. The feet are broken away. In the spandrels of the arch are rosettes and above its crown is a bull's head with sacrificial fillets. There are mortice holes in each side of the stone, for fixing it into a monument. Found in 1852 in Driffield Terrace at a depth of 3 ft. to 4 ft. – part of a Centurion’s tombstone/funeral monument.

(99) Tombstone fragment (Plate 54), of gritstone, 10 ins. by 12 ins. by 4 ins., with part of a relief showing a leg from below the knee with a sandalled foot. The attitude suggests a rider and the object with two borders behind the leg may be a saddle-cloth. Found before 1860 in Driffield Terrace or Dalton Terrace, The Mount. Piece of an auxiliary cavalryman’s tombstone?

(103) Coffin (Plate 57. Fig. 86), of gritstone, 7 ft. 4 ins. by 2 ft. 3 ins. by 2 ft. 4 ins. The inscription is contained in a moulded panel on the long side of the coffin, flanked by the letters D. and M. each beyond bracket-like scrolls. Found in 1859, in Dalton Terrace (N.G. 59355108) (see Burials, IV Region, (m), vi). The coffin had been reused for a male burial in gypsum, and the tombstone of Flavia Augustina (see No. 77) formed its lid. The lettering showed traces of original red paint, now blotted out by a modern substitute. “To the spirits of the departed (and) to the good lady Aelia Severa, once the wife of Caecilius Rufus. She lived 27 years 9 months and 4 days. Caecilius Musicus his freedman placed (this monument).' Mommsen (Strafrecht, 1035, 5) observes that honesta femina might apply to the wife or daughter of a Decurion/cavalry officer.

108) Coffin (Plate 56), of gritstone, 4 ft. by 1 ft. 10 ins. by 1 ft. 4½ ins. with a ridged lid 9 ins. high. Matching recesses indicate where the lid had originally been clamped. The coffin when found, N.W. of The Mount, on the railway line S. of Holgate railway bridge (N.G. 59155120), had been reused for the burial of a child older than the inscription indicates. To the spirits of the departed. For Simplicia Florentina, a most innocent soul, who lived 10 months, Felicius Simplex, her father, of the Sixth Legion Victorious, made (this memorial).' The LEG · VI · V has been added to the inscription as an after-thought in a much less monumental style of lettering, a centurial sign being added before PATER.

(120) Sphinx (Plate 62), funerary, of gritstone, 1 ft. 3 ins. by 2 ft. 6 ins. by 1 ft. 8 ins. The creature is conceived as a nude crouched female, with melancholy upward gaze half-left. Her hair hangs in six tresses, divided over the shoulders and back. The breasts are prominent, and wings and a long tail complete the figure. The hands and feet are missing, together with the front of the pedestal. There is no inscription, contrary to previous fancy. Found in 1852, in Driffield Terrace, The Mount.

Very interesting. Lots of military, including cavalry. Nothing mentioning gladiators.
I'm curious if many confirmed gladiators were buried with horse bones?
Edit: And can they be tested for the ash beverage and other diet associated with the Ephesus gladiators?
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0110489

ADW_1981
09-01-2016, 09:23 PM
L21 is clearly more concentrated in Britain/Ireland (Especially Ireland) than in Brittany:

And like Helgenes said, without ancient genomes, we can't say if L21 was even present in NW France before the arrival of the Britons.

I stated or (meant to) implied before the spread of Celtic culture, hence the question mark. aDNA proves L21 was in Ireland before the Halstatt cultural expansion.

rms2
09-01-2016, 09:34 PM
Bollox79,

Since you mention your y-dna line ancestry in your signature and the possible connection to one of the skeletons from the urban Roman context at York, it's fair to bring that up.



Male line: MDKA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania - Sergeant in US 17th Infrantry War of 1812 R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z304/306-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-s4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817. I share all of these SNPS and possibly a few more with the Roman "Gladiator or Solder" skeleton #3 from 6 Driffield cemetery SW of York!

I don't know what part of Pennsylvania your ancestor was from, but I know that many Pennsylvania Weavers, as well as Weavers from the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia, are the descendants of German-Swiss Mennonites (Anabaptists) whose surname was originally Weber. Weaver Surname (http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Weaver_(Weber)_family)

Romilius
09-02-2016, 04:53 AM
http://eurogenes.blogspot.ie/2016/01/ancient-genomes-from-iron-age-roman-and.html.

They could have got the Continental admixture from their mothers just like the DF21 Rathlin Islanders.

DF21 with continental admixture from mothers... Where and what is the source?

mouse
09-02-2016, 09:32 AM
DF21 with continental admixture from mothers... Where and what is the source?

The three Rathlin Islanders were related on the male side but they had three different mtdna lines. The female lines could have come from the Continent. North Germany is showing up in some of the L21 testers gedmatch results. Can you explain this?

Captain Nordic
09-02-2016, 11:04 AM
I stated or (meant to) implied before the spread of Celtic culture, hence the question mark. aDNA proves L21 was in Ireland before the Halstatt cultural expansion.

Many historians and archeologists now believe that the Bell beaker folks could have been speaking some sort of Proto-Celtic dialect and was therefore a western offshot of Yamna.
This would explain a lot, like the Y dna R1b in Bell beakers and the Yamna like autosomal component.

But i think we're drifting off topic here :)

Romilius
09-02-2016, 12:26 PM
The three Rathlin Islanders were related on the male side but they had three different mtdna lines. The female lines could have come from the Continent. North Germany is showing up in some of the L21 testers gedmatch results. Can you explain this?

I don't want to explain anything... I only say that modern matches could be a misdirection. We have two female lines already present in Central Europe from the Neolithic and three male lines that we don't know from where arrived, probably from Central Europe too.

Romilius
09-02-2016, 12:29 PM
If I remember correctly, Prof. Bradley talked a year ago about many samples tested from Ireland... Se have only 4 samples now... I know that with many samples we could put an end on the L21 story in Ireland... Unluckily, I never heard anything about the progress of the project...

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 12:34 PM
Bollox79,

Since you mention your y-dna line ancestry in your signature and the possible connection to one of the skeletons from the urban Roman context at York, it's fair to bring that up.



I don't know what part of Pennsylvania your ancestor was from, but I know that many Pennsylvania Weavers, as well as Weavers from the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia, are the descendants of German-Swiss Mennonites (Anabaptists) whose surname was originally Weber. Weaver Surname (http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Weaver_(Weber)_family)

Rms2,

Yes my relation with 6drif-3 has been confirmed as matching on some of these SNPs here in this group per Alex Williamson, Dr. Iain McDonald (who is also in my DF98 - S1911 - S1894/S1900 group who clusters in Scotland) and Big Y etc: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1330. I'm that Weaver sample in that little group.

As for my Weavers being descendants of German-Swiss Mennonites (of which there are plenty - I've worked with them out in the country when I did excavating/construction work - also Amish do the framing after we dig the basements and worked with them on a big farm also etc...) it is very unlikely. That's the research I did even before I decided to test Y-DNA - and also the reason for the test as I have a brick wall at my 4th Great Grandfather Adam Weaver who was a hat maker listed on his War of 1812 enlistment and carpet weaver later in life in Harrisburg. He was born around 1785 when Harris' Ferry would have become Harrisburg, or at least the formation of Dauphin county. He apparently came from an area (Paxtang) that a majority of the names are actually English and Scots-Irish. A relation who's great whatever grandfather spoke to this Adam... said he was an Englishman - probably Northern - and the DNA matches back that up... but know you know family history goes from generation to generation. I've since given up trying to match Weavers in PA... since there are so many, but as far as I'm aware we were never Webers (I'm aware of the change of surname to Weaver)... and generally married Scots-Irish (my Great Grandfather Charles Burd Weaver Sr. was very Scots-Irish - Grandmother Ferguson from Northern Ireland via Scotland, Mother Burd from Burd family from Orminston in East Lothian etc.). Besides I've found some evidence that my Weavers were associated with the Assembly of God Church, which I read is... Presbyterians and the Assemblies of God are movements within Protestant Christianity... so they were not Mennonites etc!

Having a common occupational surname of Weaver, especially in PA (You sound familiar with PA groups)... is a pain in me arse lol. For the record my Dad's fathers family is mainly Scots-Irish, Mom's whole side Gaelic Irish and Scots (many 3rd-5th cousin matches from Ireland, Northern Ireland, and Western Scotland per family finder) and Father's Mother's side has Irish mixed with PA Dutch from Lancaster and with a bit of Slavic/German from Steelton. Generally I show up as about 90% British with 10% left over German/Russian - though I tend to go more on my actual cousin's list. A few 5th cousins from Norway, Sweden, and Russia... and then the rest from the Isles (with over 90% from the West!)... I don't include Americans in that list because I am trying to figure out where the gene flow came from etc.

Cheers!

mouse
09-02-2016, 12:36 PM
I was discussing this in the Bell Beaker thread, but did not want to hijack the original post, so I started an additional thread here! I know these samples/paper (the Romano-British, one Iron Age, and one Anglo-Saxon) were already discussed, but I'd like to discuss some more with anyone who is willing to discuss or interested in the subclades of U106 found in the York samples. In particular I wish to discuss 6drif-3... basically my MDKA to date since I'm only a few SNPs (two or three?) away from him in common with my modern day matches (some from British Isles - one from Sweden with MDKA around 1734). The MDKA ancestor is important to me considering dating, SNP dating, spread etc of the sub group since the British Isles descendants know their ancestor came from "somewhere" in Britain (or possibly France) and the Swede is certainly from outside of Stockholm circa 1734 death of MDKA.

6drif-3 was positive for DF98 (which is commonly associated with the Royal House of Wettin)... but was negative for the sub group (I call it Wettin's side of DF98) called S18823 which clusters mainly along/around the Upper Rhine. He was positive for the brother/sister clade of S18823 called S1911. Currently that clade and it's sub clades are dominated by mainly British (especially Scottish, Northern English and Irish samples) with a tentative connection to France around the S1911 level. Also in S1911 is the very possible descendants of Odard de Dutton born? Normandy and settled at Dutton in Cheshire - both the Dutton and Warburtons match each other SNP wise in a time table/dating that appears to support their descent from Odard or there abouts.

Any speculation/discussion is welcome... as I bore my friends with this stuff, but I'd like to talk to some people who share the same passion for this. Additionally to the discussion "Is U106 only Germanic, or are parts Celtic" etc (to sum up a complicated topic with a simple title)... I think with any haplogroup and especially sub groups and lineages and paternal male lines, you need to trace those particular lines as best as you can (hopefully matching some ancient remains like I got lucky and matched like 6drif-3) to give context... as you can't assign such an old Y-DNA marker like U106 to "one" group... it's entirely possible for our male ancestors have been a part of a "Germanic" culture and then a "Celtic" culture... we know they moved around and adopted cultures...

For those of you who are interested in the DF98 sub clade of U106 here is a great pdf by Dr. Iain McDonald. Pages 10 and 11 have nice maps of established European samples (so samples who know where their MDKAs came from, and not an American like me who only knows my Weaver ancestor most likely came from Northern England/Scotland possibly as an Ulster Scot to Pennsylvania)... http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/kings-cluster.pdf

Look forward to the discussions!

Slainte mhor!


The three best fit populations from this diagram for the two U106 are 3-DRIF-16, 1.Scotland,Poland, Wales and 6DRIF-3, 1.Ireland,Wales,Poland. The U106 subclades DF98 and DF96 are not Polish subclades so they must be U106 Britons. I noticed also that the best fit populations for the Anglo-Saxon sample were, 1.Ireland,Wales,Scandinavia so he was not an Anglo-Saxon!!!!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQUkdBbU5odzJGakk/view

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 12:50 PM
The three best fit populations from this diagram for the two U106 are 3-DRIF-16, 1.Scotland,Poland, Wales and 6DRIF-3, 1.Ireland,Wales,Poland. The U106 subclades DF98 and DF96 are not Polish subclades so they must be U106 Britons. I noticed also that the best fit populations for the Anglo-Saxon sample were, 1.Ireland,Wales,Scandinavia so he was not an Anglo-Saxon!!!!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQUkdBbU5odzJGakk/view

Yes Mouse... I too wonder about the Poland connection as I know there were tribes up there with connections to La Tene and other cultures from Central Europe and La Tene was also found in Northern Britain (though I'm not claiming he was a Celt either until I match a dead guy out of a confirmed La Tene site etc...). I wonder a) what the connection to Poland and NE Europe was as we need much more testing from there (but there is plenty of archaeological proof for trade such as La Tene sword scabbards found all throughout Poland) and b) if there was trade must have been population movement to. That brings me to wonder though if my ancestors (and 6drif-3's) came through the Baltic into Britain, or down into Central/Western Europe then up the Rhine into Britain either as a migration or with the Romans. Hard to tell when until we get some aDNA from along the Rhine and in particular we really need some aDNA from burial sites around Worms/Mannheim and the Upper Rhine where the subgroup of S18823 of DF98 clusters strongly. Keep in mind S18823 is a sub group of DF98 (with the Royal House of Wettin in it) while myself and 6drif-3 are positive for S1911 which is actually mainly British currently with a connection to France. An easy way to explain it is S18823 is a German branch with many samples in Britain, while S1911 tends to be more British. Take a look at this pdf - http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/kings-cluster.pdf my sample is on page 6 I think under the S4004 group (which S4004 tends to cluster in Northern England/Scotland with a couple Scandinavians). DF98 tends to be more Upper Rhine (for now) though some is found in the Low Countries, and I think DF96 is a bit more Low Countries oriented, both have plenty of samples from Britain...

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 12:51 PM
think of both DF96 and DF98 as one of the most SW sub groups of U106... they are both under Z156...

mouse
09-02-2016, 01:19 PM
think of both DF96 and DF98 as one of the most SW sub groups of U106... they are both under Z156...

"The third millenium BC was a time of considerable change in Europe. M269,
is now generally thought to have arrived in from the Black Sea area, around
3000 BC, possibly via the river Danube. DF98 congregates around the
headwaters of the Danube, where it meets the headwaters of the Rhine. It is
thought our ancestors spread from here to the Rhine delta, then across to
Britain, where they probably first arrived around 1300 BC. Successive waves
of migration have brought DF98 to the British Isles since then. Given the
prevalence of clusters of tests with convergence ages around 1000 years ago,
there seems to be a significant Norman contingent to the DF98 tests of the
British Isles.
This evidence is suggestive of DF98 with being formed and transmitted during
the expansion and migration of the Tumulus Culture throughout Western
Europe during the later part of the second millenium BC. However, other
places of origin are still quite possible. While more-accurate dating (and
ultimately archeological DNA) would give us a clearer picture, this currently
appears to be a serious contender for our origins."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus_culture

Webb
09-02-2016, 01:33 PM
Bollox79,

Since you mention your y-dna line ancestry in your signature and the possible connection to one of the skeletons from the urban Roman context at York, it's fair to bring that up.



I don't know what part of Pennsylvania your ancestor was from, but I know that many Pennsylvania Weavers, as well as Weavers from the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia, are the descendants of German-Swiss Mennonites (Anabaptists) whose surname was originally Weber. Weaver Surname (http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Weaver_(Weber)_family)

Generally Weber with one b is German. Weaver, Webster, Webber and of course Webb are generally English with different degrees of French influence. Webb being the oldest known variant. Webba, female weaver and Webbe, male weaver. What is not known is how the "b" replaced the "f". Wefan is the old German root for weave.

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 01:44 PM
"The third millenium BC was a time of considerable change in Europe. M269,
is now generally thought to have arrived in from the Black Sea area, around
3000 BC, possibly via the river Danube. DF98 congregates around the
headwaters of the Danube, where it meets the headwaters of the Rhine. It is
thought our ancestors spread from here to the Rhine delta, then across to
Britain, where they probably first arrived around 1300 BC. Successive waves
of migration have brought DF98 to the British Isles since then. Given the
prevalence of clusters of tests with convergence ages around 1000 years ago,
there seems to be a significant Norman contingent to the DF98 tests of the
British Isles.
This evidence is suggestive of DF98 with being formed and transmitted during
the expansion and migration of the Tumulus Culture throughout Western
Europe during the later part of the second millenium BC. However, other
places of origin are still quite possible. While more-accurate dating (and
ultimately archeological DNA) would give us a clearer picture, this currently
appears to be a serious contender for our origins."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus_culture

Yes Mouse! I believe that is from Dr. McDonald himself ;-). We do have evidence for a sizable Norman component in DF98 (Duttons and Warburtons in S1911 under DF98 see Odard de Dutton of Cheshire!)... and if not through the Baltic some how... I agree with Dr. McDonald, though as he says we need archaeological DNA from along the Rhine or Danube to confirm ;-).

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 01:46 PM
Generally Weber with one b is German. Weaver, Webster, Webber and of course Webb are generally English with different degrees of French influence. Webb being the oldest known variant. Webba, female weaver and Webbe, male weaver. What is not known is how the "b" replaced the "f". Wefan is the old German root for weave.

Yes Webb! My 2nd Great Grandfather was a George Webster Weaver ;-). Twice the weaver? hah... additional evidence for me leaning towards a Northern English/Scottish origin... as Webster is quite common in NE Scotland where Dr. Iain McDonald is from!

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 01:48 PM
then again I'm reluctant to put too much emphasis on surnames, as they change quite often, and with occupational ones almost impossible to match up unless along Y-DNA lines, which btw I don't even come close to matching any Weavers in the surname project last time I checked... so it's mainly the older Y-DNA trail I'm focused on now ;-). Working backwards from ancient times on... hence my OCD about 6drif-3... my oldest "proven" male ancestor with an established burial spot/origin (whether he was born there or not)... :-)!

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 02:03 PM
Very interesting. Lots of military, including cavalry. Nothing mentioning gladiators.
I'm curious if many confirmed gladiators were buried with horse bones?
Edit: And can they be tested for the ash beverage and other diet associated with the Ephesus gladiators?
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0110489

Hmm I don't know if they tested for the exact same isotopes as Ephesus gladiators were tested for... as I'm pretty sure the ash drink etc didn't show up in nitrogen or carbon differences in the Ephesus study - only showed up in the calcium content of the gladiators (?), which was much higher than the average for the rest of the non-gladiators in that paper? Also I did note that some of the papers on the archaeological part of Driffield warned that Ephesus, despite having plenty of similarities. They state this because Driffield were well preserved, whole skeletons (albeit with skulls removed in some cases, but still buried with skeleton) and Ephesus was a mass grave of a bunch of bones with some gladiator tombstones there. Not saying that they didn't do a good job reassembling the Ephesus skeletons, but some things could have been missed in all that mess (at least I think that is what they meant) and they are looking for more comparable material - such as other whole skeleton burials in a Roman context in Britain...

As far as horse bone burials - rather rare, but do exist in Romano-Britain. Google some books about Romano-British horse burials - they are linked with pagan burials as funeral meals and/or sacrifices to the "Gods" and the large amount of bones at Driffield show signs of butchering, though the archaeologists are having a hard time agreeing whether it was waste material or grave material since that area has been disturbed so many times over the centuries, including Anglo-Saxon period and medieval plowing/farm land (one of the skeletons was disturbed probably by a plow for example) and also a fort built in the 1600s(?) for a civil war and record of hundreds of skeletons being dug up in the Driffield area...

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 02:06 PM
Dewsloth - they found some decapitated Roman era skeletons in Scotland... associated with a fort... and a horse burial. Interesting huh? Quick test their Y-DNA lol. https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2010/11/decapitated-roman-skeletons-find-is.html

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 02:11 PM
Also to keep in mind about Roman military burials... they were as often (or more often) cremations (and those are found around Driffield and not in Anglo-Saxon urns - from what I read anyway in all the sources) including my own ancestor's grave which had the cremation box burial with his skull in it reburied in his grave... and there is evidence they continued into the 4th century and also that Roman military didn't allow soldiers to bury weapons/armor with them - that was passed on to the next soldier because it was owned by the state? At least in most instances. Even the Centurion burials of Castle Yard in York... didn't have weapons with them - just nice coffins because they could afford them! The burial of weapons was more of a pagan tradition as I think the Romans regulated weapons in Britain and near the border (at least when there wasn't rebellions going on etc).

mouse
09-02-2016, 02:55 PM
Yes Mouse! I believe that is from Dr. McDonald himself ;-). We do have evidence for a sizable Norman component in DF98 (Duttons and Warburtons in S1911 under DF98 see Odard de Dutton of Cheshire!)... and if not through the Baltic some how... I agree with Dr. McDonald, though as he says we need archaeological DNA from along the Rhine or Danube to confirm ;-).

Dr McDonald has a different TMRCA for S1911 than Yfull. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S1911/ Did he not write that he thought that Z156 originated in France, in the Paris Basin?

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 03:20 PM
Dr McDonald has a different TMRCA for S1911 than Yfull. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S1911/ Did he not write that he thought that Z156 originated in France, in the Paris Basin?

Yes Mouse,

I tend to go with Dr. McDonald's dates as he's the expert on DF98... and had compiled all the data himself on DF98 - Big y and Strs before that... and also his normal job is doing the same thing (albeit in the astrophysics sphere) and he has a PHD and two Masters... much smarter than me ;-). I believe he thinks S1911 series formed possibly originated in France (based on current data) since there is a sample from Poitou in Western France who is S1911+ and some other S1900 SNPS... but negative for all the major subclades of S1911... and the Dutton/Warburtons of Cheshire are S1911+ (but have their own sub group under S1911) and have a descent from Odard de Dutton born somewhere in Normandy? We also predict that the DF98 samples at this project: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dehaynin/default.aspx%3Fiframe%3Dydna&prev=search - group Group R1b1a2 who has their mkda as Etienne de Denain... might be positive for S4004. I believe this site/project is managed by a Pierre Sage who has been studying the De Denain (De Haynin) family in France/Belgium for 30 some years and has several books out on them. If this group who is supposed to descend from Etienne de Denain circa 1140 end up in the S4004 group above my group (as Dr. McDonald thinks they might based on 111 strs and cluster etc)... that would give us a further link to France (albeit in the NE)...

Cheers :-)!

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 03:24 PM
Ideally we need much more testing in France... and in particular Normandy and the NE and West sides of the Rhine etc.

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 04:05 PM
P.S. for those interested in this thread, and more importantly Romano-British history and archaeology (and where I compiled my list of funeral stuff found on or near Driffield Estate on the Mount)... have a look at this link. Great stuff on Roman Eboracum ;-). http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rchme/york/vol1

Slainte!

Dewsloth
09-02-2016, 04:25 PM
Dewsloth - they found some decapitated Roman era skeletons in Scotland... associated with a fort... and a horse burial. Interesting huh? Quick test their Y-DNA lol. https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2010/11/decapitated-roman-skeletons-find-is.html

Perhaps the decapitation is some military mortuary ritual, or euthanasia, and not punishment.

mouse
09-02-2016, 04:56 PM
Ideally we need much more testing in France... and in particular Normandy and the NE and West sides of the Rhine etc.

I think that you and Dr McDonald need more ancient dna tests from Britain to find the answer that you all are searching for.

rms2
09-02-2016, 05:42 PM
Rms2,

Yes my relation with 6drif-3 has been confirmed as matching on some of these SNPs here in this group per Alex Williamson, Dr. Iain McDonald (who is also in my DF98 - S1911 - S1894/S1900 group who clusters in Scotland) and Big Y etc: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1330. I'm that Weaver sample in that little group.

As for my Weavers being descendants of German-Swiss Mennonites (of which there are plenty - I've worked with them out in the country when I did excavating/construction work - also Amish do the framing after we dig the basements and worked with them on a big farm also etc...) it is very unlikely. That's the research I did even before I decided to test Y-DNA - and also the reason for the test as I have a brick wall at my 4th Great Grandfather Adam Weaver who was a hat maker listed on his War of 1812 enlistment and carpet weaver later in life in Harrisburg. He was born around 1785 when Harris' Ferry would have become Harrisburg, or at least the formation of Dauphin county. He apparently came from an area (Paxtang) that a majority of the names are actually English and Scots-Irish. A relation who's great whatever grandfather spoke to this Adam... said he was an Englishman - probably Northern - and the DNA matches back that up... but know you know family history goes from generation to generation. I've since given up trying to match Weavers in PA... since there are so many, but as far as I'm aware we were never Webers (I'm aware of the change of surname to Weaver)... and generally married Scots-Irish (my Great Grandfather Charles Burd Weaver Sr. was very Scots-Irish - Grandmother Ferguson from Northern Ireland via Scotland, Mother Burd from Burd family from Orminston in East Lothian etc.). Besides I've found some evidence that my Weavers were associated with the Assembly of God Church, which I read is... Presbyterians and the Assemblies of God are movements within Protestant Christianity... so they were not Mennonites etc!

Having a common occupational surname of Weaver, especially in PA (You sound familiar with PA groups)... is a pain in me arse lol. For the record my Dad's fathers family is mainly Scots-Irish, Mom's whole side Gaelic Irish and Scots (many 3rd-5th cousin matches from Ireland, Northern Ireland, and Western Scotland per family finder) and Father's Mother's side has Irish mixed with PA Dutch from Lancaster and with a bit of Slavic/German from Steelton. Generally I show up as about 90% British with 10% left over German/Russian - though I tend to go more on my actual cousin's list. A few 5th cousins from Norway, Sweden, and Russia... and then the rest from the Isles (with over 90% from the West!)... I don't include Americans in that list because I am trying to figure out where the gene flow came from etc.

Cheers!

What was the surname of your mdka Adam's wife? Do you know?

I've known a number of Weavers, and all of them were Mennonites or of that descent.

rms2
09-02-2016, 05:45 PM
Generally Weber with one b is German. Weaver, Webster, Webber and of course Webb are generally English with different degrees of French influence. Webb being the oldest known variant. Webba, female weaver and Webbe, male weaver. What is not known is how the "b" replaced the "f". Wefan is the old German root for weave.

I realize all that, but many German surnames were anglicized in North America. I lived for a number of years in the Shenandoah Valley, where many people are descendants of the Virginia Germans, i.e., people whose ancestors came down from eastern Pennsylvania pretty early on. Weaver is one of those anglicized German surnames, and bollox79 can't get past an mdka born 1785 in Pennsylvania, not Britain. Pennsylvania was and is loaded with Weavers who were originally Webers.

Kopfjäger
09-02-2016, 05:49 PM
I realize all that, but many German surnames were anglicized in North America. I lived for a number of years in the Shenandoah Valley, where many people are descendants of the Virginia Germans, i.e., people whose ancestors came down from eastern Pennsylvania pretty early on. Weaver is one of those anglicized German surnames, and bollox79 can't get past an mdka born 1785 in Pennsylvania, not Britain. Pennsylvania was and is loaded with Weavers who were originally Webers.

I, for one, can vouch for this. My mother's maiden name is Shaver, anglicized from the German Schäfer.

rms2
09-02-2016, 05:53 PM
I, for one, can vouch for this. My mother's maiden name is Shaver, anglicized from the German Schäfer.

I've known all sorts of them: Taylor, from Schneider, Smith, from Schmidt, Baker, from Becker, etc. In the Shenandoah Valley there are lots of Strohsniders (from Strohschneider - "Strawcutter"), Stoneburners (from Steinbrenner), Maurers, Orndorfs, and even some Stephens whose name comes from Stephan, like the descendants of Ludwig and Peter Stephan, the founders of Stephens City, Virginia. There are a number of other such names. There is a book out there entitled, The Virginia Germans, that lists almost all of them. Weaver is one of those surnames.

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 06:10 PM
I realize all that, but many German surnames were anglicized in North America. I lived for a number of years in the Shenandoah Valley, where many people are descendants of the Virginia Germans, i.e., people whose ancestors came down from eastern Pennsylvania pretty early on. Weaver is one of those anglicized German surnames, and bollox79 can't get past an mdka born 1785 in Pennsylvania, not Britain. Pennsylvania was and is loaded with Weavers who were originally Webers.

Been there done that... already researched whether my Weaver family is more tied to Mennonites or not... spent a few years on that before I decided to do Y-DNA testing... and as I've mentioned before... nothing points towards them being Mennonites - they were most likely Protestant (still though that doesn't mean they weren't German), they were not from the farming country of Lancaster... and not every single Weaver in Pennsylvania is German. I've gone over and over this with people... but it keeps coming up.

I don't know the maiden name of Adam's wife... but a grandfather (who was a Y-DNA Weaver) of a relative and the grandson of Adam (I think that was the generations) spoke to Adam right before he died in Harrisburg, and it's very likely he was from somewhere in England or Scotland... the Y-DNA matches support this - go look at the pdf of Dr. McDonald... and look at the flags near to the samples... not any Germans in S4004 - yet.

Besides I've found some of those PA Germans from Lancaster in the Weaver surname group and I don't match them ;-).

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 06:14 PM
additionally I have some PA Dutch names in my autosomal matches naturally (Father's Mother's father's family were Houcks from Lancaster - saw a picture of them they look like the little statue of the Dutch Farmer and his wife with overalls and a pitchfork when you are driving towards Allentown lol)... and zero Weavers cluster with them... which I though was strange. Much less PA Dutch than I thought I would get actually considering all my Father's family comes from PA.

rms2
09-02-2016, 06:18 PM
I'll take your word for it, since I am not privy to your myFTDNA pages and your y-dna matches.

I am very skeptical of the idea that U106 in the Isles has any other source than Germanic tribesmen and their descendants, from Roman auxilia through the Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Normans, and Flemings.

If it had got there much earlier, it would have a much wider and more frequent distribution.

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 06:27 PM
I'll take your word for it, since I am not privy to your myFTDNA pages and your y-dna matches.

I am very skeptical of the idea that U106 in the Isles has any other source than Germanic tribesmen and their descendants, from Roman auxilia through the Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Normans, and Flemings.

If it had got there much earlier, it would have a much wider and more frequent distribution.

I know you are very skeptical - I'm familiar with you on other posts ;-). I don't blame and not saying you are wrong... sure I could be wrong. That's the thing about this research... we are probably somewhat wrong... question is how much?

Based on current data that's what I think, but it could change!

and I think it leans more towards Northern English/Scottish ancestry considering the high number of Germans in S18823 and the low number of Germans in S1911 and Dr. McDonald tends to agree... and an ancient sample in Britain - though perhaps we are confusing my claim to Scots-Irish more recently, but it's highly likely my earlier (earlier than 6drif-3) came from somewhere in Germany. I think he did... somewhere along the Rhine...

I know there were a ton of Germanic auxiliaries kicking around Northern Britain right around the Roman times... and a little after too...

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 06:29 PM
if for instance I get a much closer match in Germany... then my hypothesis will change somewhat and I'll think it's more likely we were Mennonites or from the Rhineland... but that hasn't happened yet! Closest matches are currently British with a Swede - Gustafsson - but keep in mind these matches come from around 200 AD a bit after 6drif-3 per Dr. McDonald's dating! I really don't have any modern day matches that are very close (i.e. within the last 1000 years) that I know of!

rms2
09-02-2016, 06:32 PM
I think some actual Germans need to be tested for S1911 before one concludes they are poorly represented by that SNP. Men of Isles descent are over-represented in commercial y-dna testing.

Funny that U106 drops like a rock in the Celtic Fringe countries after being so well represented in England, if it actually arrived in the Isles prior to the Romans.

rms2
09-02-2016, 06:34 PM
if for instance I get a much closer match in Germany... then my hypothesis will change somewhat and I'll think it's more likely we were Mennonites or from the Rhineland... but that hasn't happened yet! Closest matches are currently British with a Swede - Gustafsson - but keep in mind these matches come from around 200 AD a bit after 6drif-3 per Dr. McDonald's dating! I really don't have any modern day matches that are very close (i.e. within the last 1000 years) that I know of!

How close is the Swede?

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 06:35 PM
I think some actual Germans need to be tested for S1911 before one concludes they are poorly represented by that SNP. Men of Isles descent are over-represented in commercial y-dna testing.

Funny that U106 drops like a rock in the Celtic Fringe countries after being so well represented in England, if it actually arrived in the Isles prior to the Romans.

I wish they would test more Germans for S1911... and ideally for DF98 along the Rhine in ancient DNA... and yes I am aware of the British bias ;-).

mouse
09-02-2016, 06:36 PM
I know you are very skeptical - I'm familiar with you on other posts ;-). I don't blame and not saying you are wrong... sure I could be wrong. That's the thing about this research... we are probably somewhat wrong... question is how much?

Based on current data that's what I think, but it could change!

and I think it leans more towards Northern English/Scottish ancestry considering the high number of Germans in S18823 and the low number of Germans in S1911 and Dr. McDonald tends to agree... and an ancient sample in Britain - though perhaps we are confusing my claim to Scots-Irish more recently, but it's highly likely my earlier (earlier than 6drif-3) came from somewhere in Germany. I think he did... somewhere along the Rhine...

I know there were a ton of Germanic auxiliaries kicking around Northern Britain right around the Roman times... and a little after too...

Page 10 of the PDF in your first post shows a cluster of S1911 in northern England and Scotland. This S1911 cluster is not 1500 years old but 4000 ybp. If your group arrived from Scandinavia or northern Germany 1500 ybp you should all be related within the last 1500 years. If you look at the L21>M222 cluster they are all related within the last 1600 years and a lot of them that are tested are from the Irish Diaspora.

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 06:43 PM
How close is the Swede?

Hmm about 21 or 22 GD at 111 strs... so actually if I look at the pdf of Dr. McDonald here http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/kings-cluster.pdf our relation is before 0 AD. I get all the dates mixed up unless I look them up!

rms2
09-02-2016, 06:46 PM
Hmm about 21 or 22 GD at 111 strs... so actually if I look at the pdf of Dr. McDonald here http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/kings-cluster.pdf our relation is before 0 AD. I get all the dates mixed up unless I look them up!

Okay, I thought you were talking about FTDNA "matches", i.e., haplotype neighbors within a reasonable genetic distance who appear on the y-dna matches pages of one's myFTDNA pages. "Matches" 21 or 22 away at 111 markers are pretty useless.

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 06:46 PM
Page 10 of the PDF in your first post shows a cluster of S1911 in northern England and Scotland. This S1911 cluster is not 1500 years old but 4000 ybp. If your group arrived from Scandinavia or northern Germany 1500 ybp you should all be related within the last 1500 years. If you look at the L21>M222 cluster they are all related within the last 1600 years and a lot of them that are tested are from the Irish Diaspora.

yes Mouse the S1911 is pretty old - I think Iain dated the DF98 to about 1500 BC give or take... and S1911 is right under that.

S4004 he dated more towards 700 B.C. and that particularly clusters in Northern England/Scotland... if I remember Best estimate around 850 BC.
95% c.i.: 1350 - 400 BC - looked that up on the pdf

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 06:50 PM
Okay, I thought you were talking about FTDNA "matches", i.e., haplotype neighbors within a reasonable genetic distance who appear on the y-dna matches pages of one's myFTDNA pages. "Matches" 21 or 22 away at 111 markers are pretty useless.

not useless when they are your closest matches and are proven through SNP testing like Big Y. Gotta follow the data... for recent time yes, but gotta work with what you have.

rms2
09-02-2016, 06:52 PM
yes Mouse the S1911 is pretty old - I think Iain dated the DF98 to about 1500 BC give or take... and S1911 is right under that.

S4004 he dated more towards 700 B.C. and that particularly clusters in Northern England/Scotland... if I remember Best estimate around 850 BC.
95% c.i.: 1350 - 400 BC - looked that up on the pdf

I cluster around the Fredericksburg, Virginia area these days, . . . but I wasn't born here. ;)

rms2
09-02-2016, 06:54 PM
not useless when they are your closest matches and are proven through SNP testing like Big Y. Gotta follow the data... for recent time yes, but gotta work with what you have.

There are data, then there is the interpretation of data and allowing the wish to become father to the thought.

When the Big Y nets a "terminal" SNP that is shared by people that distant, I guess you have to hope for some ancient y-dna.

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 06:55 PM
I cluster around the Fredericksburg, Virginia area these days, . . . but I wasn't born here. ;)

Ahh BUT... clustering is important. S4004 clusters in Northern England/Scotland - and SURPRISE a skeleton from Roman times positive for it... back when no one thought there would be any U106 pre Anglo-Saxon... so anything is possible ;-).

rms2
09-02-2016, 06:58 PM
Ahh BUT... clustering is important. S4004 clusters in Northern England/Scotland - and SURPRISE a skeleton from Roman times positive for it... back when no one thought there would be any U106 pre Anglo-Saxon... so anything is possible ;-).

Good point, but it isn't likely it was there before the Romans imported it and the Anglo-Saxons reinforced it. It also isn't very likely anyone is descended from the man who once animated that skeleton.

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 07:04 PM
Good point, but it isn't likely it was there before the Romans imported it and the Anglo-Saxons reinforced it. It also isn't very likely anyone is descended from the man who once animated that skeleton.

Perhaps, or perhaps not. That is why we a) need more aDNA and b) I need more recent matches... but for now he's one of my closest SNP (though 1800 - roughly - years distant) matches ;-)... in addition to the others in that little group!

rms2
09-02-2016, 07:08 PM
Perhaps, or perhaps not. That is why we a) need more aDNA and b) I need more recent matches... but for now he's one of my closest (though 1800 years distant) matches ;-).

Well, if any kind of U106 turns up in Britain before the Romans, the question will be why it was so unsuccessful outside what is now England. Why, for example, if U106 is so old in Britain, did it not spread in greater numbers to what are now the Celtic Fringe countries? Why is it that where it occurs in those countries it seems to cluster in those places where the English settled? Odd, isn't it?

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 07:12 PM
Well, if any kind of U106 turns up in Britain before the Romans, the question will be why it was so unsuccessful outside what is now England. Why, for example, if U106 is so old in Britain, did it not spread in greater numbers to what are now the Celtic Fringe countries? Why is it that where it occurs in those countries it seems to cluster in those places where the English settled? Odd, isn't it?

Also common/clusters where the Belgae settled... ;-). Remember there are always exceptions to the rule - I want the truth... if the truth is my male ancestors were invaders... fine with me ;-).

rms2
09-02-2016, 07:15 PM
Here's what I honestly think about the U106 skeletons found in Roman York. They were either imports from the Continent or the sons or grandsons of imports and local women. U106 did not really get a toehold in the Isles until the Anglo-Saxons brought it en masse beginning in the 5th century AD. That is why U106 in the Isles so closely matches the distribution of the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants, the English.

There may have been some very very small amount of U106 in the Isles before the Romans, but the lineage never established itself. It took the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons to advance U106 in what is now England.

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 07:18 PM
Here's what I honestly think about the U106 skeletons found in Roman York. They were either imports from the Continent or the sons or grandsons of imports and local women. U106 did not really get a toehold in the Isles until the Anglo-Saxons brought it en masse beginning in the 5th century AD. That is why U106 in the Isles so closely matches the distribution of the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants, the English.

There may have been some very very small amount of U106 in the Isles before the Romans, but the lineage never established itself. It took the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons to advance U106 in what is now England.

You could easily be right... what we need is more aDNA in a context that we can interpret for sure... as the Driffield burials were strange and mysterious and don't really fit a certain "culture" other than it being a Roman burial ground etc.

If my ancestor was a Saxon (or in the Roman period an auxiliary - I read that Frisians were messing about early on possibly in the Roman period up in Britain)... I'm ok with that too as I like those Saxon helmets... all I REALLY care about, honestly, is that they were fighting ;-). That runs in the family (lots of military and/or blue collar knuckle heads in the fam!).

rms2
09-02-2016, 07:27 PM
Well, there is supposed to be a big paper on Bell Beaker due out anytime that includes genomes from the Isles. If any of them turns out to be U106, especially on your particular branch and twig, that will tell the tale. I doubt that is going to happen, but one never knows.

I think U106 as a whole is closely tied to the genesis of the Germanic language and people and wasn't in the vicinity of the Lower Rhine until around 700 BC, long after the Bell Beaker people. And it took the Romans breaking and weakening the native British Celts to make them vulnerable to Anglo-Saxon intruders (and even then the Celts were in the ascendant in Britain for much of the post-Roman period).

Dewsloth
09-02-2016, 07:35 PM
Here's what I honestly think about the U106 skeletons found in Roman York. They were either imports from the Continent or the sons or grandsons of imports and local women. U106 did not really get a toehold in the Isles until the Anglo-Saxons brought it en masse beginning in the 5th century AD. That is why U106 in the Isles so closely matches the distribution of the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants, the English.

There may have been some very very small amount of U106 in the Isles before the Romans, but the lineage never established itself. It took the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons to advance U106 in what is now England.

I suspect something similar for the S4268+ guy, but as Bollux says, the whole situation cries out for a lot more rigorous DNA testing.

Bollox79
09-02-2016, 07:37 PM
Well, there is supposed to be a big paper on Bell Beaker due out anytime that includes genomes from the Isles. If any of them turn out to be U106, especially on your particular branch and twig, that will tell the tale. I doubt that is going to happen, but one never knows.

I think U106 as a whole is closely tied to the genesis of the Germanic language and people and wasn't in the vicinity of the Lower Rhine until around 700 BC, long after the Bell Beaker people. And it took the Romans breaking and weakening the native British Celts to make them vulnerable to Anglo-Saxon intruders (and even then the Celts were in the ascendant in Britain for much of the post-Roman period).

Great news on the upcoming Bell Beaker paper - thanks for mentioning it! I hope to see some u106 in there - no matter where it is from.

I have a lot of ancestry from the Isles (apart from the possibly of the Y we were discussing) - My Mom's father was an O'Dwyer (O'Duibhir from Kilmanagh in Tipperary, Ireland - a descendant of the Chieftain's family or a junior branch - I think I've sufficiently proven it through the allied families of Butler and FitzGerald showing up in many of my American cousin matches - they cluster in SW Ireland particularly Tipperary/Limerick - and I know it's documented 5 O'Dwyer Chieftains married Butler women ;-)!) and his mother was a McGuire from Ontario. My Mom's side is full of Mc this or Mac that... MacAulay from the Hebrides most likely (I get a lot of 3-5th cousin matches who are in fact from Western Scotland or places like Cape Breton and Prince Edward Island). I get Isles matches from my father's side too... but have plans on testing my Aunt (his sister) and his mother (she is 96 and still kicking) since I can't test him anymore - he died in an accident at work - hence the main reason for getting the Y-DNA testing ;-). That's four men from his side to die in a work related accident... like I said hard headed knuckleheads who work themselves too hard... enough about me though!

Yeah I see the Celts and the Germanic tribes as both being hard fighters... and also respect the Romans for their accomplishments... though they picked on both groups... I am into this for the history as much as the personal DNA... I see history literally being made as we go along with this new aDNA and genetic testing... perhaps we truly can figure out some migrations :-)!

rms2
09-02-2016, 07:38 PM
I suspect something similar for the S4268+ guy, but as Bollux says, the whole situation cries out for a lot more rigorous DNA testing.

I agree completely. Just look at DF19 as a whole. It practically screams "Anglo-Saxon!", at least in my view.

mouse
09-02-2016, 08:26 PM
if for instance I get a much closer match in Germany... then my hypothesis will change somewhat and I'll think it's more likely we were Mennonites or from the Rhineland... but that hasn't happened yet! Closest matches are currently British with a Swede - Gustafsson - but keep in mind these matches come from around 200 AD a bit after 6drif-3 per Dr. McDonald's dating! I really don't have any modern day matches that are very close (i.e. within the last 1000 years) that I know of!

If 6drif-3 were a Roman Gladiator then he was a captured Briton. It would be quite a story if you were descended from him and it is possible.

rms2
09-02-2016, 08:33 PM
If 6drif-3 were a Roman Gladiator then he was a captured Briton. It would be quite a story if you were descended from him and it is possible.

He might have been a Briton on his mother's side.

Kopfjäger
09-02-2016, 10:27 PM
Well, there is supposed to be a big paper on Bell Beaker due out anytime that includes genomes from the Isles. If any of them turns out to be U106, especially on your particular branch and twig, that will tell the tale. I doubt that is going to happen, but one never knows.

I think U106 as a whole is closely tied to the genesis of the Germanic language and people and wasn't in the vicinity of the Lower Rhine until around 700 BC, long after the Bell Beaker people. And it took the Romans breaking and weakening the native British Celts to make them vulnerable to Anglo-Saxon intruders (and even then the Celts were in the ascendant in Britain for much of the post-Roman period).

Yeah, I doubt U106 will be found in any Bell Beaker remains, especially in Britain. To be honest, other than that Nordic Bronze Age fellow, U106 is very much a mystery.

rms2
09-02-2016, 10:43 PM
Yeah, I doubt U106 will be found in any Bell Beaker remains, especially in Britain. To be honest, other than that Nordic Bronze Age fellow, U106 is very much a mystery.

I don't know; anything is possible, but thus far none of the tested Bell Beaker remains has been U106+, and a lot of them have been U106-. Quite a few of them were recovered in places where U106 is quite common today.

I think U106 may turn up in Corded Ware, but that hasn't happened yet either. I think it is telling, though, that the skeleton from the Nordic Battle Axe cemetery of Lilla Beddinge in Sweden belonged to a contemporary of the Bell Beaker culture (c. 2300 BC) but in a non-Beaker context and in a place with, as far as I know, no evidence of Beaker settlement.

mouse
09-03-2016, 05:57 AM
Kit Num: F999941 U106* 2,300 BC
Gedmatch.Com

Dodecad V3 4-Ancestors Oracle
# Population Percent
1 West_European 60.70
2 East_European 16.69
3 Mediterranean 16.06
4 West_Asian 3.83
5 South_Asian 1.35
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Swedish @ 7.469540
2 German @ 10.595685
3 Norwegian @ 10.802484
4 Argyll @ 11.199585
5 Orkney @ 11.422269
6 Orcadian @ 11.845955
7 N._European @ 11.975142
8 CEU @ 13.543454
9 Mixed_Germanic @ 14.039207
10 Dutch @ 14.823733
11 Kent @ 15.809397
12 British_Isles @ 15.879505
13 British @ 16.685055
14 Irish @ 17.387590
15 FIN @ 17.498627
16 Cornwall @ 17.628201
17 Slovenian @ 23.731493
18 French @ 23.915514
19 French @ 23.988821
20 Hungarians @ 27.696922

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% British_Isles +50% FIN @ 3.317811


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% Irish +25% Lithuanian @ 2.719423


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian + Polish @ 2.455546
2 CEU + FIN + Swedish + Swedish @ 2.676770
3 FIN + Orcadian + Swedish + Swedish @ 2.691305
4 Irish + Norwegian + Polish + Swedish @ 2.707974
5 FIN + Orkney + Swedish + Swedish @ 2.712945
6 Irish + Irish + Irish + Lithuanian @ 2.719423
7 CEU + FIN + Norwegian + Swedish @ 2.728821
8 Irish + Irish + Irish + Lithuanians @ 2.730027
9 Irish + Irish + Lithuanians + Norwegian @ 2.778894
10 Irish + Mixed_Slav + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 2.790744
11 British_Isles + FIN + German + Swedish @ 2.798746
12 Finnish + Irish + Orkney + Swedish @ 2.833544
13 FIN + German + Irish + Swedish @ 2.836342
14 British_Isles + Finnish + Norwegian + Orkney @ 2.837919
15 Finnish + Irish + Orcadian + Swedish @ 2.840781
16 FIN + Norwegian + Orcadian + Swedish @ 2.846946
17 FIN + Swedish + Swedish + Argyll @ 2.852479
18 British_Isles + Finnish + Orkney + Swedish @ 2.855669
19 British_Isles + Norwegian + Norwegian + Polish @ 2.861069
20 British_Isles + Finnish + Norwegian + Orcadian @ 2.867412

Jean M
09-03-2016, 12:12 PM
National Geographic has a glossy piece by Andrew Curry: DNA Reveals Far-Off Origins of Ancient 'Gladiators'
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/01/160119-gladiator-headless-skeletons-dna/


DNA testing is telling scientists more about the origins of a group of headless Romans.

People in the Roman Empire really got around. Evidence from a Roman-era cemetery in York, England shows that the city—once a major outpost on Rome’s distant frontier—was home to both locals and to immigrants from thousands of miles away.

In a paper published Tuesday in the journal Nature Communications, Trinity College Dublin geneticist Dan Bradley and his colleagues analyze DNA preserved in the dense inner ear bones of seven skulls found in the cemetery. They report that six of the skeletons have DNA matching people living in modern-day Wales. But to researchers’ surprise, one of the men came from a long way away—the other end of the Roman Empire, in fact.

“The nearest genetic matches were from Palestine or Saudi Arabia,” Bradley says. “He definitely didn’t come from Europe.”

To confirm the DNA results, Gundula Müldner of the University of Reading analyzed chemical signatures in the skeleton's teeth for clues. The differences between this sample and the others were dramatic.

“This Near Eastern chap really, really stands out. He was from somewhere arid and hot,” she says. “Where he fits best is the Nile Valley or an environment like that—we can’t pinpoint it exactly, but somewhere in the Near East.”

Inscriptions, literary sources, and other evidence have suggested the Roman Empire’s elite often immigrated from one part of the empire to another. There’s even a Roman burial from York that contained a woman from Africa wearing an ivory bracelet.

Unusually, many of the bodies in the Driffield Terrace cemetery were beheaded. Some archaeologists think that suggests they were gladiators; others say they might have been criminals....

Previous analysis of chemical signatures in the bones and teeth of other skeletons from the cemetery had determined that some of the men grew up in colder climates, perhaps Germany or further east in continental Europe. The chemical evidence also indicated some of them ate millet grain—a crop that was unavailable in Britain—as children.

Dewsloth
09-03-2016, 01:49 PM
Jean, have you seen reports of Roman, Celtic or Germanic burials where decapitation is a mortuary/funerary rite? It looks like Bollox found at least one other Roman fort burial complex where it may have taken place. Just wondering if there are any contemporary sources or later reports.

rms2
09-03-2016, 01:56 PM
Jean, have you seen reports of Roman, Celtic or Germanic burials where decapitation is a mortuary/funerary rite? It looks like Bollox found at least one other Roman fort burial complex where it may have taken place. Just wondering if there are any contemporary sources or later reports.

I know you asked Jean, not me, but I would like to comment.

The Romans used decapitation for Roman citizens as a more merciful form of execution, reserving other, more severe penalties, like crucifixion, for non-citizens. For example, St. Paul, a Roman citizen, was decapitated, while St. Peter, not a Roman citizen, was famously crucified upside down.

The Celts are infamous for being headhunters, but they did not bury the heads of their victims with the bodies.

George Chandler
09-03-2016, 02:43 PM
National Geographic has a glossy piece by Andrew Curry: DNA Reveals Far-Off Origins of Ancient 'Gladiators'
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/01/160119-gladiator-headless-skeletons-dna/

The one that stands out as more likely from the north is 6-DRIF18. He was from a warmer southern climate "or" and alternative was that he was well fed on a fresh water marine diet as a child. His highest autosomal results show Wales but a Welsh ancestry doesn't fit the S1051 group as a whole. There is no historical event in the area of Wales which can account for the S1051 group being torn up this much. Whatever happened to the S1051 group happened to all of us a social or geographic tribal group. The group doesn't fit a genetic addition event into Britain from Roman Soldiers, Vikings, Angles or Saxons and yet there is a likely Angle or Viking connection going the other direction which IMO doesn't appear to be connected to slaves. Some of the S1051's like FGC17938 share a common ancestor with the other ancient 15 subbgroups under S1051 going back ~3,700 years and even though FGC17938 appears to have a higher showing in Wales the 6-DRIF18 remains are negative for FGC17938 and were part of the FGC9854 subgroup. He (6-DRIF18) wasn't fed on Millet from Continental Europe like some of the others. Even though the torn up genetic results resemble something you would expect to see from Near Eastern Jews there is no evidence to suggest he came over with the Near Eastern Drif person. There is nothing to suggest a connection to Jewish culture other than some who have it from their mothers side within the group and that is limited to a couple and one who was adopted.

The mtDNA could be from a central or northern part of the continent? I bet that he (6-DRIF18) was captured either from the northern Roman campaign into Caledonia against the Picts, or there is some overlap with the carbon dating from the late Roman period into the early Bornician/Angle occupation of the area. As much as I would like to see a unique Welsh tribal origin for us I don't see the genetic evidence.

George

George Chandler
09-03-2016, 02:47 PM
I would really like to see the DNA extracted from the two other skeletons found within the 6-DRIF18 grave. Both were headless (if I recall) and yet the FGC9854 remains were not decapitated.

Kwheaton
09-03-2016, 03:02 PM
I have just read through this thread and first want to throw out some random thoughts. 6DRIFF22 is not only U152 but L2 and FGC22501. I started a FTDNA project specific to FGC22501 which was first named in my husband's Y Elite. 6DRIFF22 also shares downstream SNPS with two of our members a WHIFFING (Surrey, England) and a LAGERBERG from Swedon but from the Mainland before that.

We have been very lucky to have matching clusters of men who are current residents of Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and Romania. We are also able to piece together a paper trail back to the Lords of Lorraine for many of these men. We also have groups of men of English origin currently residing in the US.

Due to my Co- Administrator's tenacious research we have very old connections to the House or Duchy of Bar which is in Lorraine. Also towards the botom of this page I plot some of our surnames https://sites.google.com/site/wheatonsurname/beginners-guide-to-genetic-genealogy/lesson-18-exploring-the-y-haplotree-with-a-real-life-example

What We see is not only language patterns but geographic and familial spreading out from the suspected homeland in Belgica.

The other thought I had was about the horses. Please see the posted link above for reports on the horse parts buried at Driffield Terrace.

Kwheaton
09-03-2016, 03:47 PM
Another thought----Although the Rhine was a major dividing line for the Romans it was a (excuse he pun) fluid corridor for the Celtic and Germanic tribes---the distinction may have been more one of language than DNA per se. It is likely in my opinion that U152, U106 and others traveled in similar paths in similar waves. For instance in FGC22501 we know that it was in England in the 6DRIFF22 remains so very likely came with Romans even if this individual was born and raised in York. However we have the distinct possibility that various branches came at different times and settled in different places. Some may have been pre-Roman Celts coming for trade, mining etc. We have a distinct cluster that coalesces around the Bristol Channel. We also have strong possibilities of Norman or Flemish migration later on. This is what we have so far .
11350

Bollox79
09-04-2016, 03:13 PM
Another thought----Although the Rhine was a major dividing line for the Romans it was a (excuse he pun) fluid corridor for the Celtic and Germanic tribes---the distinction may have been more one of language than DNA per se. It is likely in my opinion that U152, U106 and others traveled in similar paths in similar waves. For instance in FGC22501 we know that it was in England in the 6DRIFF22 remains so very likely came with Romans even if this individual was born and raised in York. However we have the distinct possibility that various branches came at different times and settled in different places. Some may have been pre-Roman Celts coming for trade, mining etc. We have a distinct cluster that coalesces around the Bristol Channel. We also have strong possibilities of Norman or Flemish migration later on. This is what we have so far .
11350

KWheaton thanks for your posts :-)! Did you have a chance to look over the list of Roman funeral material I posted that was found on or very near Driffield Estate? Also check out this site - Roman burials throughout the years in York? Here is a link to the actual list of burials/funeral material... though you can go back out to the table of contents to look at the full list of subjects etc. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rchme/york/vol1/pp67-110

Also interesting that you say you have found links to French nobility in your group... as we have, in my group (and Dr. McDonald thinks they may test positive for S4004, which 6drif-3, myself, and some others are positive for) the French noble family of De Denain/De Haynin, which according to the FTDNA project (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dehaynin/default.aspx%3Fiframe%3Dydna&prev=search) on that page the Branch of Wazemmes, Saultain, and Baisieux all appear very DF98 per their 111 STR markers - though we still need them to take a Big Y or something like it to see where we really stand in terms of SNPs - but they all list their MDKA as Etienne de Denain - https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maison_de_Haynin&prev=search - though they haven't tested for DF98 yet... but statistically they are very likely to be DF98+.

Dewsloth
09-04-2016, 03:40 PM
We have been very lucky to have matching clusters of men who are current residents of Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and Romania. We are also able to piece together a paper trail back to the Lords of Lorraine for many of these men. We also have groups of men of English origin currently residing in the US.

Due to my Co- Administrator's tenacious research we have very old connections to the House or Duchy of Bar which is in Lorraine. Also towards the botom of this page I plot some of our surnames https://sites.google.com/site/wheatonsurname/beginners-guide-to-genetic-genealogy/lesson-18-exploring-the-y-haplotree-with-a-real-life-example

What We see is not only language patterns but geographic and familial spreading out from the suspected homeland in Belgica.


I like that map of the Roman frontier: my most distant known (DF19) male relatives resided in Bad Schwalbach, just off the bottom right of the map. Coincidentally my Lebanese-american maternal grandfather was shot through the femur at Remagen (missed the femoral artery and he lived another six decades), also at the bottom of the map, and already apparently strategically important. Small world.

Kwheaton
09-05-2016, 11:36 PM
Bollox79

I did as to the parts related to Driffield Terrace and some inscriptions. Its hard to know who these folks really were. Although certainly under Roman rule. It is likely they came with the Romans and settled there perhaps for several generations ( since the isotope suggests that some lived there). The most intriguing things are the connections of various mainland Belgic Tribes and their support of Roman troops through manpower and grain....whether these Driffield guys were soldiers, conscripts, slaves who really knows?

The connections we have are with the Duchy of Bar, Toul, Lorraine and then Dukes, counselors etc of same. We have a strong geographical area that does not necessarily denote where FGC22501 was born...but at leats where some of it clustered some time ago.

dkm1987
09-10-2016, 01:56 PM
As much as I would like to see a unique Welsh tribal origin for us I don't see the genetic evidence.
George

Compared to modern Welsh, no I don't think so either. But we are talking about much much further back in time.

Does anyone have 6DRF-18 autosomal markers that can be uploaded to Gedmatch, if so and since I am FGC17938+, we can compare to him and others of the S1051 group.

Pvg1949
10-15-2016, 04:54 PM
Hi cousin Bollox, I think non of you saw the excellent BBC documentary about the Roman skeletons. You can found it on Youtube - Timewatch - The Mystery of the Headless Romans.
In the last 15 minutes of the doc. a professor gives a whole different answer of how and why those people where decapitated. Do you have a picture of 6RIF-23, i would like to have one to put it my tree.
En plus, the df 19 workgroup of FTDNA is pretty sure that our Dna DF19, Df88 is originated in the coastal regions of South Denmark or the coastal areas of North-Germany.
best greetings,
Paul

Dewsloth
11-16-2016, 04:25 PM
Well 6DRIF-23's Y data has now been examined by Alex and the R DF-19 group folks, and he's DF19/DF88/S4268/Z17112/S17075 and also L644-
Turns out while there are a lot of us Z17112 folks (the guy had A LOT of sons/grandsons, apparently), there is one family already in the group that is both S17075+ and L644- and they and 6DRIF-23 share some "private" SNPs, too.

So now the dig not only identifies some ancient relatives, but also helps date the S17075 mutation to before 200 AD. :)

Bollox79
11-18-2016, 07:59 PM
Well 6DRIF-23's Y data has now been examined by Alex and the R DF-19 group folks, and he's DF19/DF88/S4268/Z17112/S17075 and also L644-
Turns out while there are a lot of us Z17112 folks (the guy had A LOT of sons/grandsons, apparently), there is one family already in the group that is both S17075+ and L644- and they and 6DRIF-23 share some "private" SNPs, too.

So now the dig not only identifies some ancient relatives, but also helps date the S17075 mutation to before 200 AD. :)

Thanks for the reply Dewsloth... so what are the thoughts of the DF19 people on the origins of this guy... does it somewhat reflect, for example, of what I know of my group along with 6drif-3 - that our DF98 group is common along the Rhine and into Belgium and apparently NE France (appears that way from a sample from France who is below DF98 and is S1911+ positive (also the descendants of Dutton of Normandy are S1911+) but then they all branch from there... and end up in the Isles except for the French sample who stayed there. Now of course we think Dutton would have come over during the Norman times, but 6drif-3 and friends during Roman times or earlier of course!

It helps date S17075 to before 200 AD? Good... I know 6drif-3 was considered late 3rd-early 4th century based on context (not carbon dating though... yet?) and interestingly his skull was placed in a cremation burial on top of him... and the 3 Driffield was a bit earlier as a whole... (as early as 1st century late?) and 6 Driffield was a bit later (2nd century?) overall... something like that. I'd have to read the literature again for preciseness! I know that Dr. Iain McDonalds dating interval for my match with 6drif-3 is about 300ish BC with late end of the interval somewhere around 200 AD? (Once again I'd have to look at the dates - he just updated them again on the U106 DNA forum at yahoo!).

The more we know about these guys... perhaps we can figure out if they had something on common - other than all the evidence for interpersonal violence, stress markers (have you ever read the pathology of these guys... some of them had lamellar bone (fractures first have woven bone then develop into lamellar or harder bone) on like 8 right ribs... and they found a skeleton in England who they think belonged to a Norman knight (his isotopes match up for Normandy I believe) and he had a ton of fractures (some healed some not) on his right ribs - probably from tourneys or battle etc... anyway. One of those driffield guys (can't remember if it was 3 or 6) had 17 or 18!!!!!!!!!!!! cuts to the neck and mandible!!! They were hacked up man! They are full of trauma.

Ok I get excited lol. Cheers Dewsloth!

Bollox79
11-18-2016, 08:14 PM
Hello Pvg1949!

You might be able to find a picture of 6drif-23 if you do some searching on google on which one he was per his pathology from the official reports... and match it up to his skeleton in the pictures available. I managed to find what I think is 6drif-3 - though it took comparing the skeleton with the butterfly fracture and other trauma in the program Gladiators: Back from the Dead to pictures and I found the same skeleton shown at the display at Durham. Pretty sure this guy is 6drif-3 ;-). 12608

Bollox79
11-18-2016, 08:24 PM
Well 6DRIF-23's Y data has now been examined by Alex and the R DF-19 group folks, and he's DF19/DF88/S4268/Z17112/S17075 and also L644-
Turns out while there are a lot of us Z17112 folks (the guy had A LOT of sons/grandsons, apparently), there is one family already in the group that is both S17075+ and L644- and they and 6DRIF-23 share some "private" SNPs, too.

So now the dig not only identifies some ancient relatives, but also helps date the S17075 mutation to before 200 AD. :)

A quick look at 6drif-23's pathology - and he was in the same age range as 6drif-3 (18-25) young adult!

His pathology for anyone who hasn't seen it yet:

Schmorl’s nodes T10 & L3
Excavated muscle attachment both humeri –
pectoralis major (bilateral); teres major (left side);
left fibula
– soleus
Series of four cuts to C2-5 & mandible; full decapitation at C5 (cut at C2 may not have severed
head completely)

C2
– 1) linear cut that has removed the inferior surface of the body and right lamina (fracture of
anterior third of body). Cut angled superior right to inferior left; corresponds to cut 1 to C3 & cut
to right gonial angle of mandible
2) linear cut that removed a sliver of bone from the inferior surface of the left lamina; corresponds
to cut 2 on C3
C3
– 1) linear cut that has removed the superior quarter of the superior left apophyseal facet; cut
angled posterior
-inferior to anterior
-superior; corresponds to cut 1 on C2
2) linear cut inferior to cut 1 that has removed a sliver of bone from the super
ior margin of the left
lamina, terminating just medial-posterior to the superior left apophyseal facet; delivered from
behind, presumably angled superior
-right to inferior
-left
3) linear cut that has removed the lateral inferior margin of the inferior rig
ht apophyseal facet
(probably did not penetrate completely through the medial part of the facet); cut angled slightly
superior right to inferior left & delivered from behind; corresponds with cut on C4
C4
– shallow linear cut (2mm long) lateral to the infe
rior border of the superior right apophyseal
facet; corresponds with cut 3 on C3; delivered from posterior right
C5
– linear cut that has removed the inferior surface of the body, angled posterior
-inferior to
anterior
-superior (possible fracture of anterior body). The angle of the cut was such that the
inferior right apophyseal remained unscathed. Presumably would have cut through C6 –
but C6
lost post
-mortem
Mandible

has a cut penetrating 17mm into the posterior surface of the right ramus located 12mm
superior to the gonial angle; fracture line continues from the anterior margin of the cut to the
inferior margin of the mandible (separating the fragment of gonial angle from the rest of the
mandible); probably correlates with cut 1 on C2 & C3

Hope you can read it!

Cheers,

Charlie

Pvg1949
02-17-2017, 05:58 PM
Hi Bollox,
The correct skeleton is 1175, but a cannot find any picture of it, do you have a hint?
Paul

Bollox79
02-21-2017, 08:06 PM
Hi Bollox,
The correct skeleton is 1175, but a cannot find any picture of it, do you have a hint?
Paul
Paul,

How are you doing :-)?

As far as actually finding a picture of 6drif-23 (that's the one you are after right?) ... well the way I think I found 6drif-3... I watched the Gladiators: Back from the Dead show and recognized 6drif-3 via his injuries (particularly the multiple sharp blade trauma to his right ulna along with the butterfly fracture - his decapitation wasn't even mentioned - or at least I suppose all skeletons reviewed were decapitated and there fore considered very likely to be gladiators/soldiers?) and also reading the pathology and matching the
heavyweight guy and his skeleton (and pictures of it from the program) to 6drif-3 in the literature and his pathology etc since there is only one guy who was described "as one of the largest at 183ish cm and also sharp blade trauma, butterfly fracture on ulna" so that was how I was sure it was him - by matching the guy on the program up with the literature. I am not sure if 6drif-23 in included (looked at?) in the documentary Gladiators: Back from the Dead? You could try searching for pictures of the York Gladiators and perhaps you might get lucky and see 6drif-23 (though you need to be very familiar with his pathology).

Does that make sense?

Hope that helps!

Cheers,
Charlie

cathys
08-16-2019, 01:33 AM
Hi, my name is Cathy and I would love to talk with you about this. My dad tested positive for S1911, Cts4528 and is inR-S22519. They are thinking it might be a brother clade to U106, as it runs right along side of it. My dad has been ditermined to be Scottish. Sherrick is the surname

palamede
08-22-2019, 10:56 AM
In Yfull S22519 is given equivalent to S17624, CTS4928 is given equivalent to S1200 upstairs of S17624.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S17624/

but https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S1911/ is given downstairs of U106 ???

cathys
11-20-2019, 06:44 PM
oops the first snp is R-S1194. Sorry guys

ziegenfarm
02-01-2020, 10:32 PM
I have dna matches to four of the DRIF graves. very closely related to 6DRIF-23 & 6DRIF-21. less related to 6DRIF-3 & 3DRIF-16. can anyone tell me who these folks might be, where they were from, why they were gladiators or any other information of interest. were they criminals or simply executed because they were rebels? they appear to have had numerous old injuries indicating a history of battle. their last days must have been horrendous & injuries received before death excruciating.

JoeyP37
02-02-2020, 01:03 AM
I match those gladiators as well; I have recorded ancestry from Yorkshire and Lancashire, so I am not surprised at the matches. They were probably poor local Celts who were being victimized by the Roman authorities, perhaps as a way of keeping the common people in line.

rambelr
02-08-2020, 05:15 AM
Hi all , I'm a newbie and hope to learn a lot .Was adopted and started on the DNA trail .Y = i-Fgc21735 and Mt = H2a2a1f . I have been linked to 3 of the men . 6DRIF-23 the closer match apparently,6DRIF-18 and DRIF-3 who are about the same level and lesser to DRIF- 16,18 and DRIF22 .I have a very strong Nordic connection but also Celt .Not sure if i can supply any info that would help you guys as you all seem to know what your topic , but i want to learn more .I a waiting on my big Y another few weeks they say ...Cheers .

Bollox79
02-09-2020, 06:52 PM
Where are you guys matching driffield guys - at that ancestry site or on Gedmatch? I can't remember if they are still up on Gedmatch or not - but anyway I match fairly closely on the Y-line (for ancient DNA and a modern day guy) 6drif-3 you can see the SNPs shared in my signature and Dr. Iain McDonald said there are probably no calls and we possibly shared a few more - anyway this is my group as it stands at the moment at the S4004 level above the group of SNPs shared by myself, 6drif-3 and some English, two Swedes, and a German from the Rhineland most likely or Northern Germany (my closest Y-DNA match at the moment and makes sense considering my paternal ancestors were most likely Lutheran Germans who migrated to colonial Pennsylvania with that big group in the 1700s - the autosomal matches would support that and possibly the family of Captain Michael Weaver/Weber of the Rangers of the Frontier). Under S4004 you can see some more English, German and a Norwegian noble family Von Bagge who became Swedish nobility (Coat of Arms in the Ritterhausen at Stockholm) and later Baltic Germanic nobility (Swedish) in Estonia. Looks rather Germanic at the moment... unless all this branching occurred before the Nordic Bronze Age - then possibly pre-celt/germans? Really a smallish group at the moment. That is why we really need ancient DNA samples: Ideally pre-roman, roman period, and migration period remains from around the Rhineland and Northern Germany to see if the DF98/DF96 group (which does include links to the House of Wettin and also now House of Bourbon - so a Frankish link?) was there pre-roman, roman period, and after during the migration period etc. Also keep in mind a DF98+ ancient burial was found in the Viking paper at Skarra in Sweden. Here is the big tree link for my S4004 group: https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=3336&star=false

Any interesting tidbit I know of is one of my kinsman from Northern England (we are related autosomally on multiple lines) one of his ancestors y-lines is DF96 and matches 3drif-16 and also has a common ancestor with a line from Finland - circa 300 AD for that common ancestor so right in the Migration period. A clue perhaps of that groups movement or that line's movement? Additionally for DF96 we have an early Migration Germanic burial at Altheim 1 from the early Baiuvarii paper - and another at Altenerding that is probably Z305+ (that is ancestral to DF96 and DF98) and also two DF96ers among the Danish I believe - one buried in Denmark and one in that mass grave at Oxford I think = Danish Vikings?

I do think that research supports a mixed heritage for both 6drif-3 and 3drif-16 (both being U106 - 3drif-16 being DF96 under U106 and brother group to our DF98). Here is what I have on those two guys and a link to the paper on all of them so you can look the others up if you guys want to - they included them in the autosomal DNA portion of the paper on pagan migrant Icelanders (also I have a mtDNA match with a pagan burial from that paper T2b2b in my signature!) and they were similar to Icelanders of mixed heritage Gaelic and Germanic - I included the bit from the Icelander paper at the end of the paragraph for both 6drif-3 and 3drif-16 - in my opinion they would easily be some sort of gladiator or did some sort of fighting and training that is very clear from the healed trauma and just prevalence of trauma in that whole burial ground - but also possibly auxiliary soldiers - I have found evidence of burial material on and around Driffield for roman burials and soldier burials (veterans of the 6th etc) found since the 1600s, but context wasn't well recorded so don't know if it was there for 2000 years or got there later as that was a very active area in history near York. I don't think they were slaves or criminals though not because I'm "related" to one, but if you read the paper on all the roman burial material found around York since the 1600s - they have found where they buried slaves and/or criminals on the other side of the railway tracks and in pits all thrown in and jumbled together and with just some dirt thrown on top of them - so no care taken in the burial - where as the Driffield guys plenty of evidence for care in burial, coffins, and also people mourning the dead and some burial monuments etc. Like I said though it's been plowed up and a fort was built there and they dug up all kinds of stuff back in the day so who knows the true context of those burials... all I know is that they didn't bury bums along side the Roman road leading to the fortress hahaha! I think that burial site will be a mystery for a long time - or until we can find some links to Germanic auxiliaries along the Rhine for my DF98 group - but who knows. The way they were buried (multiple burials and some horse bones etc in there) reminds me of continental warrior burials (we see those later in the migration period, but buried with gear and weapons as was common) but no weapons as Romans would not have allowed soldier to be buried with weapons only soldiers who complete their term and left the legion and went back home (Batavi come to mind) sometimes buried their gear with them or sacrificed it in the water ways. Those burials are interesting though since they are quite not the norm for Romano British burials - 6drif-3 in particular being the tallest man examined at about 6 feet or an inch more in those days that was pretty tall - he would have qualified for the First cohort or Germanic bodyguard in size alone if you check Roman standards for soldiers! Still - a mystery! One argument against the soldier status that I disagree with is that soldiers killed in battle were buried on the spot - so if some of these guys died fighting skirmishes and/or rebellions near to or only a few miles away from York... would they not transport them back - maybe if auxiliaries they took care of their own (if you research those units they were usually all from the tribal group and lead by their own nobles etc) and had their own burial customs etc... the argument that all men killed in battle never made it back to a fortress or stronghold doesn't make sense - maybe they were recovered later and given a careful burial? The key here would be small skirmishes - a big battle with lots of casualties - ok a mass grave is more likely and makes a lot of sense (see soldiers of Towton - interesting case there and if you watch the program on the examination of those men there are a lot of parallels in trauma and overall osteology of the bones between Towton soldiers and Driffield men - even down to the fact that they think some of the Towton men were tied or restrained and executed - though one fought back or tried to defend himself defensive wounds etc. Interesting to note 6drif-3 had more than one defensive wound - upwards to three sharp blade trauma on his right forearm and also probably a shield strike that created a butterfly fracture and other signs of a hard life of training? - and you have that older soldier at Towton that the enemy would have recognized him he survived a vicious cut to the left side of his face and would have had a very large scar!). Whatever happened at Towton - it was very personal as there are wounds that were probably dealt after the lethal blow etc. Also the battle in Gotland between the locals and the Germanic mercenaries - those resulted in mass graves just too many men to deal with and bury before the started to decompose etc. Buried in their gear... armor etc.

Anyway here is what I have on them in my aDNA U106+ list:

Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/291327771_Genomic_signals_of_migration_and_continu ity_in_Britain_before_the_Anglo-Saxons

Or https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10326

“Headless York Gladiators from Driffield Terrace on the Mount”

3drif-16 (skeleton # 16 from 3 Driffield Terrace): R-U106/S21 > Z381/S263 > S264/Z156 > Z305 > Z307 > S265/Z304 > DF96 > ~18274596-G-A > S11515 > L1/S26 by Alex Williamson. Aged 36-45 years (old middle adult). Height/stature: 171.8cm ± 2.99cm. Pathology/trauma: Schmorl’s nodes T5-L4, DJD (OP + PO) right apophyseal facets between L5 & L6 (sacralised); OA (OP, PO + E) left apophyseal facets between L5 & L6, DJD (OP + PO) lateral clavicles, medial left clavicle, left lunate, OA (OP, PO & E) distal left radius & scaphoid (associated with fracture), Additional vertebral segment present – L6 sacralised. Uppermost sacral segment fused to second segment at alae, but gap at anterior body & between laminae, R apophyseal facets possibly unfused; sacral promontory located at upper border of second segment. Apophyseal joints between T12 & L1 thoracic in shape – slight caudal border shift at thoraco-lumbar border. Osteochondritis dissecans of distal joint of left tibia – roughly circular lytic lesion, porous floor, sharp margins. Maxillary sinusitis, bilateral– spicules of lamellar bone & porosity. Developmental anomaly/ trauma to right MT5 & right 5th proximal foot phalanx. R MT5 has a ‘V’ shaped notch in the dorsal surface of the head, dividing the joint surface. The surface of the ‘V’ shaped area is rough & irregular. The distal end of the proximal 5th foot phalanx appears underdeveloped, as if the distal 3mm is absent, and the distal surface is flattened and faces disto-laterally (none of the surface curves around onto the plantar surface). Healed fracture to the spinous process of T4 – fracture located halfway along the spinous process, distal end displaced inferiorly. Healed comminuted fracture to the distal joint surface of the left radius, dividing the joint surface into three sections, with slight posterior & proximal displacement of the styloid process. Associated osteoarthritis. Decapitation C6 – linear cut through both laminae, angled slightly superior left to inferior right, and passing just superior to the superior margins of the inferior apophyseal facets & just inferior to the inferior margins of the pedicles. The only part surviving is the inferior fragment (spinous process & inferior laminae). Probably delivered from behind.

Burial dating: The majority of skeletons from 3 Driffield Terrace were thought to date to the late second and early third century AD (late 100s - 200s AD). Additional autosomal info on 3drif-16 from the Iceland early settler paper: D-stat given that pop 1 is Norse and pop 2 is Icelandic: D-stat = 0.001 - closer to zero equals mixed ancestry. Given pop 1 is Gaelic and pop 2 is Icelandic: D-stat = 0.0001. Note: Negative values indicate more pop 1 ancestry and positive values indicate more pop 2 ancestry, whereas values close to zero indicate mixed ancestry (as the contemporary Norse and Gaelic are the two best candidate source populations for Icelanders).


6drif-3 (skeleton # 3 from 6 Driffield Terrace): R-U106/S21 > Z2265 > Z381/S263 > S264/Z156 > Z305 > Z307 > S265/Z304 > ~22365047-G-A > S1911 > FGC14818 > FGC14823 > FGC14814 by Alex Williamson. Aged 18-25 years (young adult). Height/stature: 182.7cm ± 3.37cm. Pathology/trauma: Schmorl’s nodes T4, T6-12. Cleft in the superior left apophyseal facet of S1, dividing the posterior inferior corner from the rest of the surface. Possibly traumatic/ developmental. Cribra orbitalia, bilateral. Slight cranial border shift at thoraco-lumbar border–right apophyseal joint between T11-12 tending towards a lumbar shape; left side thoracic in shape.Elongated deposit of lamellar bone along the superior half of the gluteal lines of both femora, occupying the area of the hypotrochanteric fossa; possibly related to muscle attachment. Excavated muscle attachments both tibia –soleus. Avulsion fracture of the styloid process of R MC3. Possible avulsion fracture/ developmental anomaly of right navicular –tuberosity flattened and surface rough & porous. Possible decapitation C4-5; possibly two separate cuts: C4 – linear cut that has removed a sliver of bone from the anterior half of the inferior body surface, angled slightly superior left to inferior right. C5 – 1) linear cut that has penetrated the lamina inferior to the superior right apophyseal facet; the superior fragment is detached and present, apparently fractured at the anterior margin rather than cut; left half of neural arch lost post-mortem. Cut angled from posterior-inferior to anterior - superior (broadly parallel with the inferior right apophyseal facet), & possibly delivered from behind. 2) possible second cut just superior & parallel to cut 1 that has removed the superior margin of the right lamina, terminating posterior to the superior apophyseal facet. Right ulna – possible peri-mortem butterfly fracture through the midpoint of the shaft. The proximal and distal halves each have a curved break through the shaft with the posterior side projecting further (i.e. both halves nearly meet at the posterior margin); the gap between the two break surfaces on the anterior margin is roughly 30mm. The V shaped segment of bone that would have occupied the gap has been lost post-mortem. The break surfaces are slightly roughened & the same colour as the rest of the bone cortex.

Burial dating: most of the skeletons from 6 Driffield Terrace dated to the late third to late fourth centuries AD (late 200s - late 300s AD). Additional autosomal info on 6drif-3 from the Iceland early settler paper: D-stat given that pop 1 is Norse and pop 2 is Icelandic: D-stat = 0.0007 - closer to zero equals mixed ancestry. Given pop 1 is Gaelic and pop 2 is Icelandic: D-stat = 0.0001. Note: Negative values indicate more pop 1 ancestry and positive values indicate more pop 2 ancestry, whereas values close to zero indicate mixed ancestry (as the contemporary Norse and Gaelic are the two best candidate source populations for Icelanders).

Some thoughts on 6drif-3 and his osteology and a recent episode I wathced - a guy that young (he was probably 18 to 25 years of age) having that many Schmorl's nodes on his vertebrae - that tell us something - I think it supports either gladiator training or some other type of repetitive training - I watched the battlefield detective episode on the Battle of Little Big Horn and a lot of those cavalry troopers were a) young some as young as 16 and b) beat to shit they had 22 year old skeletons with arthritis and other signs of repetitive wear from riding and training etc. I have an interest in US Cavalry out West in the Indian Wars period as my 2nd GGF George Webster Weaver's brother Joseph R. Weaver fought in our Civil War in the 12th Pennsylvania Cavalry for the last year and a half of the war and mustered out as a Corporal. Joined the US 6th "Fightin' Sixth" Cavalry and was later listed as 1st Sergeant of Company M in 1869 in Texas. He served 25 years with the US "Fightin' Sixth" and I found evidence for Company M getting stuck in and fighting in skirmishes etc in the mid 1870s...! He was buried at Fort Niobrara, but later moved to Fort Leavensworth in Kansas. I wonder what his bones look like serving over 25 years in the Cavalry! Probably beat to shit!

That is my two cents on the subject hah ;-)!

Cheers,
Charlie "Cathal Dubh"

Searell
11-23-2020, 05:32 AM
The York Gladiators still have much to reveal. I share Y Haplogroup with 6DRIF-22 viz R1b>ZZ11>U152>L2>FGC22501>Y37744>A12416. 6DRIF-22 has one further downstream SNP, BY3497, which I do not share. He was raised in SW Britain and his DNA is consistent with Iron Age Briton, and most closely matches modern Celtic Welsh. Scaled innovation estimates that the A12416 SNP occurred in Britain in 410BCE and Y37744 in 1300BCE in NE France. From this I reckon that 6DRIF-22's ancestors descend from the Hallstatt Celt culture, moving north to NE France and crossing the channel 6-800BCE with the early (Welsh) wave of Celt migrants. My earliest known Y ancestor is William Searell (1595-1656) a yeoman of Staverton Devon, and thus fits the SW Britain origin of 6DRIF-22.

It appears he was buried in the period 275-325CE. His death may have coincided with the 304-306CE York visit of Roman Emperor Constantius 1 Chlorus and his son Constantine as they sought to restore order to the North, and secure the northern border by raiding into Scotland. With the Emperor in town with his huge retinue and the Praetorian Guard, one can imagine that gladiatorial games were part of the entertainment.

Searell
11-23-2020, 06:06 AM
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