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PMCGUN04
09-07-2016, 06:29 PM
I just got my mtDNA full sequence results from FTDNA (#507599) and I just learned I am C1b. After a bit of research I see this is Native American, specifically North American. This is a little nuts because on my Mother's side there is an abundance of blonde haired and blued eyed males, surnames include Jackson (England), De Aldrey (Normandy), Forcade (aka De Fourcade = (French, Pre-Norman). From conversations I have had with my maternal grandparents prior to their passing I learned that their lines were from England (Jackson) and N. Italy - Torin (De Aldrey).

I did see in my recent research that C1e was found in Iceland - from Vikings who discovered N. America (Christopher Columbus is a fucking poser - he was 2nd), and most likely mingled with Native females, and the ones that were most likely good i bed went back to Scandinavia, hence C1 markers found in Iceland. But all the articles and publications I have read say C1b is not part of this. I don't see how that is set in stone seeing as all C1X subclades are connected.

Does anyone have any info that would help explain how in the hell Native American (or Americas) got from one continent to Europe between the 9th century and the 15th? I am very curious. Just when I got some confirmation on my R-A5846 haplogroup connection to Normandy I get yet another FTDNA curve ball. I guess I am just different in every way.

Thanks everyone.

GailT
09-07-2016, 07:08 PM
How far back have you traced you direct maternal line? if it has been in the US since the colonial period, it might be possible that it is Native American. Blond hair/blue eyes etc is determined by your autosomal DNA and it is possible to have 99.9% European autosomal DNA but still have Native American ancestry on your direct maternal line.

Sammy Andrews
09-07-2016, 07:44 PM
The C1e in Iceland is Eurasain not American. Native Americans have different types of C1. C1 was rare but is proven to have existed in pre historic Russia. American and Europeans have a common ancestor who lived in Upper Paleolithic Siberia. One or another that's how C1e got to Iceland. Maybe C1b came along.

Megalophias
09-07-2016, 10:11 PM
Doesn't matter what colour anyone's hair is, or where anyone's surname is from. The question is where your maternal grandmother's mother is from, and so on back.

Every chance is that it's from a Native American woman, in America, either legitimately or by the old wife-on-the-side.

procoptodon
01-30-2017, 11:03 PM
C1b never traveled from Europe to the Americas

C J Wyatt III
01-31-2017, 01:38 AM
Does anyone have any info that would help explain how in the hell Native American (or Americas) got from one continent to Europe between the 9th century and the 15th? I am very curious. Just when I got some confirmation on my R-A5846 haplogroup connection to Normandy I get yet another FTDNA curve ball. I guess I am just different in every way.

Thanks everyone.

Some loyalist American Colonists remigrated back to Great Britain because of the Revolution. Along the way a Native American women could have gotten into the line.

Jack

lgmayka
01-31-2017, 04:37 AM
I just got my mtDNA full sequence results from FTDNA (#507599) and I just learned I am C1b. After a bit of research I see this is Native American, specifically North American.
Eventually, we may have to consider the possibility of an mtDNA subhaplogroup that corresponds to the mysterious Q-L804 (https://yfull.com/tree/Q-L804/), which is northwest European but nested within Native American clades. The most common explanation is an early back-migration from America into Asia and thence to Europe, but the lack of Q-L804 in modern Asia or Eastern Europe leaves this hypothesis unsatisfying. Could Paleo-Americans have perhaps ventured eastward across the Atlantic into Europe?

ArmandoR1b
01-31-2017, 01:25 PM
Some loyalist American Colonists remigrated back to Great Britain because of the Revolution. Along the way a Native American women could have gotten into the line.

Jack

It is extremely unlikely that is the reason that he has C1b since he is from the U.S. according to a post of his in another thread (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1244-J2b2-(J-M241)&p=181038#post181038) and therefore almost surely has a Native American ancestor in the direct maternal line. There still hasn't been a person that is not from the Americas that has been tested positive for C1b.


Eventually, we may have to consider the possibility of an mtDNA subhaplogroup that corresponds to the mysterious Q-L804 (https://yfull.com/tree/Q-L804/), which is northwest European but nested within Native American clades. The most common explanation is an early back-migration from America into Asia and thence to Europe, but the lack of Q-L804 in modern Asia or Eastern Europe leaves this hypothesis unsatisfying. Could Paleo-Americans have perhaps ventured eastward across the Atlantic into Europe?
Maybe someday, but as you can see in the first part of my post the OP likely does not have good genealogical documentation or has a brick wall for the direct maternal line so C1b isn't one of those cases yet.

GailT in post #2 2 and Megalophias in post #4 were on the right track.

C J Wyatt III
01-31-2017, 03:45 PM
It is extremely unlikely that is the reason that he has C1b since he is from the U.S. according to a post of his in another thread (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1244-J2b2-(J-M241)&p=181038#post181038) and therefore almost surely has a Native American ancestor in the direct maternal line. There still hasn't been a person that is not from the Americas that has been tested positive for C1b.


I don't see how having a non-maternal line in North Carolina in 1755 invalidates my possible scenario about his maternal line.

Jack Wyatt

ArmandoR1b
01-31-2017, 04:33 PM
I don't see how having a non-maternal line in North Carolina in 1755 invalidates my possible scenario about his maternal line.

Jack Wyatt

It's extremely simple. His direct maternal line is from the U.S. also and he has an error or a brick wall in his genealogy.

C J Wyatt III
01-31-2017, 05:15 PM
It's extremely simple. His direct maternal line is from the U.S. also and he has an error or a brick wall in his genealogy.

The way I read his first post seemed to indicate that he thought his maternal line passed through Great Britain/Europe. I just give one quite plausible scenario how that could happen.

Jack Wyatt

ArmandoR1b
01-31-2017, 05:47 PM
The way I read his first post seemed to indicate that he thought his maternal line passed through Great Britain/Europe. I just give one quite plausible scenario how that could happen.

Jack Wyatt

There is a 0% chance of that having been the case for his mtDNA. No C1b has been found in Europe and lots of it has been found in the Americas where he is from.

PMCGUN04
10-25-2017, 12:31 PM
Doesn't matter what colour anyone's hair is, or where anyone's surname is from. The question is where your maternal grandmother's mother is from, and so on back.

Every chance is that it's a Native American woman, in America, either legitimately or by the old wife-on-the-side.

My Mother was born in Havana, Cuba
My Maternal Grandmother was also born in Havana, Cuba
My Maternal Great-Parents are from Torin, Italy (Surname GGF: de Aldrey, GGM: Buffa)

My mother and grandparents (maternal) immigrated to the USA during the Bay of Pigs..

My Maternal Grandfather's surname is Jackson, terminal haplogroup is P-312 if that helps. I doubt seriously that anyone is native-native Americas, at least in pre-modern history. A lot of European (Austria, Alps region and N. Italy traced records on my maternal mTDNA tree). So the C1b mTDNA still is a mystery to me. My maternal grandfather's family came over from England to the Boston area during the revolution, my late GF was a member of the Sons of the Revolution.

Any sugesiton based on this new info?

msmarjoribanks
10-25-2017, 03:47 PM
My Mother was born in Havana, Cuba
My Maternal Grandmother was also born in Havana, Cuba
My Maternal Great-Parents are from Torin, Italy (Surname GGF: de Aldrey, GGM: Buffa)

My mother and grandparents (maternal) immigrated to the USA during the Bay of Pigs..

My Maternal Grandfather's surname is Jackson, terminal haplogroup is P-312 if that helps. I doubt seriously that anyone is native-native Americas, at least in pre-modern history. A lot of European (Austria, Alps region and N. Italy traced records on my maternal mTDNA tree). So the C1b mTDNA still is a mystery to me. My maternal grandfather's family came over from England to the Boston area during the revolution, my late GF was a member of the Sons of the Revolution.

Any sugesiton based on this new info?

I'm confused so am going to repeat this to make sure I have it correct. Your maternal grandmother was born in Cuba, and her mother was born in Italy? This is the only line that matters for mtDNA, your maternal grandfather's does not. How well documented is it that the maternal great grandmother was born in Italy and what do you know about the family before that? What do your autosomal tests show (totally possible mtDNA could be Native American and not show up on autosomal, but that would show percentage of Italian and so on).

Kurumim
01-25-2018, 01:24 AM
My Mother was born in Havana, Cuba
My Maternal Grandmother was also born in Havana, Cuba
My Maternal Great-Parents are from Torin, Italy (Surname GGF: de Aldrey, GGM: Buffa)

My mother and grandparents (maternal) immigrated to the USA during the Bay of Pigs..

My Maternal Grandfather's surname is Jackson, terminal haplogroup is P-312 if that helps. I doubt seriously that anyone is native-native Americas, at least in pre-modern history. A lot of European (Austria, Alps region and N. Italy traced records on my maternal mTDNA tree). So the C1b mTDNA still is a mystery to me. My maternal grandfather's family came over from England to the Boston area during the revolution, my late GF was a member of the Sons of the Revolution.

Any sugesiton based on this new info?

A hypothesis is that your grandmother could have been adopted by these Italian migrants, and she would have been already mixed, pred-european, so you ended up with C1b from Cuba and have no Au DNA from native americans.

Are any of your mtdna matches cuban?, what appears in your "Ancestral Origins" tab?

This is one crazy scenario, but..

PMCGUN04
02-03-2018, 09:37 PM
Okay.. clicked on the link after searching "mtdna c1b". Hello again everyone. I think I'm more up to speed as to the difference btw Y, auto, and mtdna now. To answer the key question above - yes, my maternal line via females (mother-GM-GGM-GGGM) is Cuba 🇨🇺 ➡️Cuba 🇨🇺➡️Italy 🇮🇹 ➡️Austria 🇦🇹

These are not verified from a birth place, only family records. The maternal surnames (Mother-GM-GGM..) Are...

Mom's: Jackson
GM: Buffa
GGM: de Aldrey
GGGM: TBA

Every record on FTDNA with C1b is Brazil, Cuba, etc.. so there is simply not enough data on confirmed testers, or my maternal line originates from ancient S. American tribes from the Amazon. The later is 99.99% unlikely.

With this updated info I would like to hear everyone's revised hypotheses and suggestions. Thanks in advance everyone.

ArmandoR1b
02-03-2018, 10:52 PM
Okay.. clicked on the link after searching "mtdna c1b". Hello again everyone. I think I'm more up to speed as to the difference btw Y, auto, and mtdna now. To answer the key question above - yes, my maternal line via females (mother-GM-GGM-GGGM) is Cuba ���� ➡️Cuba ����➡️Italy ���� ➡️Austria ����

These are not verified from a birth place, only family records. The maternal surnames (Mother-GM-GGM..) Are...

Mom's: Jackson
GM: Buffa
GGM: de Aldrey
GGGM: TBA

Every record on FTDNA with C1b is Brazil, Cuba, etc.. so there is simply not enough data on confirmed testers, or my maternal line originates from ancient S. American tribes from the Amazon. The later is 99.99% unlikely.

With this updated info I would like to hear everyone's revised hypotheses and suggestions. Thanks in advance everyone.

Your direct maternal line in unquestionably Native American. Your have an error in your genealogy.

Kurumim
02-04-2018, 12:16 AM
Okay.. clicked on the link after searching "mtdna c1b". Hello again everyone. I think I'm more up to speed as to the difference btw Y, auto, and mtdna now. To answer the key question above - yes, my maternal line via females (mother-GM-GGM-GGGM) is Cuba ���� ➡️Cuba ����➡️Italy ���� ➡️Austria ����

These are not verified from a birth place, only family records. The maternal surnames (Mother-GM-GGM..) Are...

Mom's: Jackson
GM: Buffa
GGM: de Aldrey
GGGM: TBA

Every record on FTDNA with C1b is Brazil, Cuba, etc.. so there is simply not enough data on confirmed testers, or my maternal line originates from ancient S. American tribes from the Amazon. The later is 99.99% unlikely.

With this updated info I would like to hear everyone's revised hypotheses and suggestions. Thanks in advance everyone.

If you still don't think you are C1b, I would advice you to test with another company like Yseq, and confirm it. C1b is very Amerindian, and I think the same thing as the user above me.

Me as an example, I have HVR1 matches all over The Americas too, even a person in Spain, that surely migrated from Latin America there, and I have only one HVR1/2 match and he is from my country, actually in the neighboring state of the most distant female ancestor I know of, we for sure have an ancestral in common, not sure how far tho.

GailT
02-04-2018, 04:03 AM
With this updated info I would like to hear everyone's revised hypotheses and suggestions. Thanks in advance everyone.


Have you done an autosomal DNA test? Would be interesting to see if that shows Native American ancestry.

ArmandoR1b
02-04-2018, 12:09 PM
The direct maternal line of PMCGUN04 is from Venezuela. His ancestors are in Familysearch.org,Ancestry.com and Geneanet.org. His direct maternal line is unquestionably Native American as I had stated earlier.

Mom's: Jackson > GM: Buffa > GGM: Celeste de Aldrey (born 14 Dec 1908 in Caracas, Venezuela. Catholic Baptism 05 Sep 1909 Caracas, Venezuela) married to Cuban national Federico Buffa b. 31 July, 1905 in Rivarolo Canavese, Torino > GGGM: María García Bermúdez (born abt 1868 married 23 January 1889 to Mario Aldrey Jiménez in Caracas, Venezuela)

21227

21228

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGLD-Z7R5

"Venezuela, registros parroquiales y diocesanos, 1577-1995," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RT3-H91?cc=1951777&wc=WNNV-NP3%3A376113301%2C376245801%2C376231902%2C37792680 1 : 18 January 2018), Distrito Federal > Caracas > Nuestra Señora de la Candelaria > Bautismos 1847-1912 > image 2878 of 3049; parroquias Católicas (Catholic Church parishes), Venezuela.

21229

http://bit.ly/2ED1Z7k

If he does not show Native American autosomal DNA with FTDNA myOrigins, AncestryDNA, or 23andme it is because the Native American ancestry is too far back. If he does it is from the Venezuelan ancestry since Buffa was a Cuban national born in Italy. So the Native American autosomal DNA would be from 3 generations ago. If Celeste de Aldrey only had 8% NA then PMCGUN04 should only have about 1%-2% if he has any.

In his first post he wrote that the surname of De Aldrey is from Normandy. It is originally from Galicia, Spain.

http://linajes.net/esq22.php?nombre=aldrey&submit=Buscar

https://www.misapellidos.com/significado-de-Aldrey-56239.html

PMCGUN04
02-04-2018, 08:01 PM
My autosomal shows no indication of Native American.

ArmandoR1b
02-06-2018, 06:44 PM
My autosomal shows no indication of Native American.

Which means that it was diluted from whatever Celeste de Aldrey had which is probably about 8% or less but somewhere far back she had 100% Native American ancestor. If the only autosomal DNA test you have had is myOrigins then 23andme or AncestryDNA might actually find that you have 1% or more.

DanTheMutt
05-18-2018, 02:57 AM
Is there any chance at all that you great-grandmother was really from Puerto Rico? Puerto Rico, Mexico, and Peru are the 3 main hotspots for C1b. Check "Alberto Gómez-Carballa et al. The complete mitogenome of a 500-year-old Inca child mummy. Scientific Reports 5, Article number: 16462 (2015) doi:10.1038/srep16462".

ArmandoR1b
05-18-2018, 01:21 PM
Is there any chance at all that you great-grandmother was really from Puerto Rico? Puerto Rico, Mexico, and Peru are the 3 main hotspots for C1b. Check "Alberto Gómez-Carballa et al. The complete mitogenome of a 500-year-old Inca child mummy. Scientific Reports 5, Article number: 16462 (2015) doi:10.1038/srep16462".

His great grandmother was born in Venezuela (see here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8504-mtDNA-haplogroup-C1b-(-Native-American)-But-they-re-all-from-Europe!&p=343039&viewfull=1#post343039)) and C1b exists in Venezuela. It doesn't matter where a hot spot is. What matters is that it exists, even if at a low frequency, in the country of origin.

You can see that Venezuelans have C1b in the Supporting Information of the following study

A melting pot of multicontinental mtDNA lineages in admixed Venezuelans
Alberto Gómez‐Carballa et al.
First published: 25 November 2011
https://doi.org/10.1002/ajpa.21629

Nearby Colombia also has a lot of C1b. See http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/c1b_genbank_sequences.htm

Those C1b from Colombia are from the following study:

High‐resolution mitochondrial DNA analysis sheds light on human diversity, cultural interactions, and population mobility in Northwestern Amazonia
Leonardo Arias et al.
First published: 27 October 2017
https://doi.org/10.1002/ajpa.23345


You should also read the following which mentions C1b in Venezuela

DÍAZ-MATALLANA, Marcela et al. El análisis genético de paleo-colombianos de Nemocón, Cundinamarca proporciona revelaciones sobre el poblamiento temprano del Noroeste de Suramérica. Revista de la Academia Colombiana de Ciencias Exactas, Físicas y Naturales, [S.l.], v. 40, n. 156, p. 461-483, oct. 2016. ISSN 2382-4980. Disponible en: https://www.raccefyn.co/index.php/raccefyn/article/view/328/227

DanTheMutt
05-19-2018, 01:22 PM
ArmandoR1b - My apologies, my question was intended for the person who started the thread (PMCGUN04). I do not doubt that C1b has long been in Venezuela.

ArmandoR1b
05-19-2018, 04:59 PM
ArmandoR1b - My apologies, my question was intended for the person who started the thread (PMCGUN04). I do not doubt that C1b has long been in Venezuela.

I understood that your question was for him but there is no reason to think that his great-grandmother was really from Puerto Rico when his great-grandmother was born in Venezuela.

LostSlough
05-27-2018, 08:29 PM
Never mind, I don't know how forums work.

Trixster
06-21-2018, 07:07 AM
Just for the record, I am Cuban. Both parents and myself from the Eastern central part of the island. My parents both have Native American maternal haplogroups. Mine is A2 and my dad's is C1b. He only carries 5% NA, I carry 9% and my mom 12%.

I have many cousins with lower NA (one with less than 1%) and the most frequently occurring haplogroups are A, B, and C for maternal.

I think there is something you are missing. Given the fact that it does not show up in your autosomal dna means it's far back enough to where it has been easily overlooked.

geebee
10-01-2018, 08:06 PM
I don't have Native American mtDNA. My mtDNA traces back to a woman born French Louisiana in 1726. However, I do have some Native American segments from a descendant of hers who inherited that ancestry on a different line.

In fact, both of my maternal grandmother's maternal grandparents were descended from this ancestor. So in a way I had two chances to inherit a Native American mtDNA haplogroup. Here's why I didn't.

Obviously, my grandmother's grandfather couldn't pass on his mtDNA, even though he does descend from the Native American ancestor in his mtDNA line

My grandmother's grandmother -- who also happened to be her husband's second cousin -- was likewise descended from the Native in an all-female line ... until her father, that is. Since she inherited her mtDNA from her mother rather than her father, that's what got passed on to me. So my mtDNA is H1bg.

However, I have some cousins who are descended from the same Native American ancestor in an all-female line. Their mtDNA haplogroup is C1b.

geebee
10-01-2018, 08:41 PM
The thing to keep in mind about the difference between inheritance of Native American segments versus a Native American mtDNA haplogroup is that the former is mainly a function of distance and luck. The latter is a matter of having exactly the right line from a Native American ancestor.

When I talk about distance and luck, obviously the more generations between an individual and a Native American ancestor, the lower the odds of inheriting DNA from that ancestor. But just because the odds may be against having a detectable segment from an ancestor in a given generation -- say, a 7th great grandparent -- that doesn't mean you won't have any DNA from a group of your 7th great grandparents.

In fact, 100% of your DNA must have come from some combination of your 7th great grandparents. And from your 10th great grandparents, for that matter. The "luck" part is simply which 7th great grandparents happen to be included in the group.

In my case, I also have two paths back to the same Native American ancestor. So she had an extra chance to be part of the "group" for me. But just how many "chances" she had are now irrelevant -- she is among my genetic ancestors, not just my genealogical ancestors.

Of course, for an mtDNA line, distance doesn't matter. MtDNA changes very, very slowly. So if someone is descended via an all-female line from a female Native American ancestor, then that person will have Native American DNA regardless of whether they also inherited an autosomal DNA from that ancestor.

Even a new defining SNP would only make the haplogroup a subgroup of the Native American ancestor's mtDNA haplogroup -- so it would still be traceable to Native American ancestry. This will be true even in another 10 generations, as long the intervening descendants are all female. (The last descendant in the line can be male, but he won't pass on the mtDNA.)

cmbravi
01-18-2020, 08:47 PM
I just got my mtDNA full sequence results from FTDNA (#507599) and I just learned I am C1b. After a bit of research I see this is Native American, specifically North American. This is a little nuts because on my Mother's side there is an abundance of blonde haired and blued eyed males, surnames include Jackson (England), De Aldrey (Normandy), Forcade (aka De Fourcade = (French, Pre-Norman). From conversations I have had with my maternal grandparents prior to their passing I learned that their lines were from England (Jackson) and N. Italy - Torin (De Aldrey).

I did see in my recent research that C1e was found in Iceland - from Vikings who discovered N. America (Christopher Columbus is a fucking poser - he was 2nd), and most likely mingled with Native females, and the ones that were most likely good i bed went back to Scandinavia, hence C1 markers found in Iceland. But all the articles and publications I have read say C1b is not part of this. I don't see how that is set in stone seeing as all C1X subclades are connected.

Does anyone have any info that would help explain how in the hell Native American (or Americas) got from one continent to Europe between the 9th century and the 15th? I am very curious. Just when I got some confirmation on my R-A5846 haplogroup connection to Normandy I get yet another FTDNA curve ball. I guess I am just different in every way.

Thanks everyone.

Just plain C1b? It would be interesting to know which further SNPs did you you get to trace matches in the Americas. This could help to pinpoint the American origin of your lineage.

ArmandoR1b
01-18-2020, 11:38 PM
Just plain C1b? It would be interesting to know which further SNPs did you you get to trace matches in the Americas. This could help to pinpoint the American origin of your lineage.

Yes, he is just plain C1b. Look for 507599 at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/colonialcarolinas?iframe=mtresults He still has his most distant maternal ancestor as being from Italy even though she is Celeste de Aldrey (born 14 Dec 1908 in Caracas, Venezuela. Catholic Baptism 05 Sep 1909 Caracas, Venezuela) married to Cuban national Federico Buffa b. 31 July, 1905 in Rivarolo Canavese, Torino. The record of her Catholic baptism is at https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RT3-H91 See my post on his ancestry (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8504-mtDNA-haplogroup-C1b-(-Native-American)-But-they-re-all-from-Europe!&p=343039&viewfull=1&__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=601317c08b52e8c089702ed5c26f00 f4f8cd84a2-1579390498-0-AXQ3HJlyJ77Du1hRFpU9WNdVQFXz9Q_2Zr9nJRGyBmA_mRM1uD vpK2Ch8ZRjkZ831V9O8BeXyU8PjCnsYV3kS6_lODg6mZradN7g x1JRO52zgUuHwDkDDBXXP7aGJbGptWbqPkzIw8sR01uUQabcmS KEqe0PTvOUTNf8hthlOC48Mar6AwPOnRR2S1F9sHWU5eD0zp49 YwTJ4_7CEDeR8eqNNrLArE62S5ndSNKykrWUwV8ED2OQtZjkTa xaKc0eYGXXs10FwviESrl89p2JNG61IKRDFCtybVC21YeUo__g _58dyCUiXWPjdWtKDOnhmAZGs6D8Yo7brK0DOLUzjkw3wBhzoV Pa4mSmMRNnywCc6qOp3QgWp7JGKHlYPGFeBGZ7qpO6ntf0mnHp Cc0xmEg#post343039)

I think it would be interesting to know what YFull would find with an analysis of his FASTA file. They have an mtree at https://www.yfull.com/mtree/C1b/ based on FASTA files.

A determination of the American origin of his lineage would be pure conjecture even with the full FASTA file.

geebee
10-21-2020, 07:33 PM
C1b never traveled from Europe to the Americas

I'm sorry, but Jack Wyatt is quite right. There were loyalists who "returned" to Great Britain during or after the American Revolution, when it was often very unpopular to be or have been a loyalist. ("Tarring and feathering" actually did sometimes occur -- though not always in connection with the Revolution.)

Further, a lot of those with Native American ancestry "picked up" this ancestry long before the American Revolution. For example, one of my NA lines is through my maternal grandmother, whose most recent "fully NA" ancestor was likely born by 1692 if not earlier.

I say this because of the marriage record of her daughter Magdeleine Pany Baudreau. Magdeleine was born near the Gulf coast what is now Mississippi in 1708, and was my 6th great grandmother. Her marriage record states that she was the "natural daughter" of Jean Baptiste Baudreau and "une indienne". "Natural daughter" means her parents were not married; and "une indienne" is pretty much what it looks like in English -- "an Indian".

Magdeleine also had a brother -- Jean Baptiste Baudreau II -- whose mother was an Indian, or Native American. We know that JBB II's mother was named Suzanne, but it's unclear whether or not both JBB II and his sister Magdeleine had the same Native American mother.

In fact, the only reason we know the name of JBB II's mother is that his father got mad at him at some point and decided to disinherit him. So he wrote out a document that gave his reasons for doing so, and in that document he said that the only reason he married his son's mother was to "legitimate him". So he also wasn't married to JBB II's mother when JBB II was born, but he did marry her later. (FYI, JBB II was Magdeleine's younger brother. If they had the same mother, clearly JBB I was unconcerned about whether his daughter was legitimate or not.)

I'm descended from Magdeleine by two different paths. One runs through her daughter Marie, while the other runs through her daughter Marie Marthe. And, yes, both sisters had the same first name of "Marie". Most likely, the sister listed as "Marie Marthe" was known to the family simply as "Marthe"; and only the one listed as "Marie" would have been called "Marie".

However, in both Marie's case and Marie Marthe's, my line of descent from them includes one male. That means they were not able to transmit Magdeleine's mtDNA any further.

This doesn't mean I have no way of knowing what Magdeleine's or her mother's mtDNA was. While I didn't inherit her mtDNA, I have relatives who did. For example, there's my 3rd cousin once removed "CC".

CC and I are actually related by a total of 8 different paths. By the closest one, we're 3rd cousins once removed. But this path includes an intervening male even on CC's side. However, one of CC's other paths is her mtDNA line. Our lines intersect in our ancestors Jacques Ryan and Marie Anne Gargaret. These were my 4th great grandparents and CC's 6th great grandparents. So on this line, CC is my 5th cousin twice removed.

Marie Anne Gargaret Ryan was the mother of both my 3rd great grandfather Pierre, and CC's 5th great grandmother Martha. But Pierre is the reason this can't be my mtDNA line, and Martha is the reason this is CC's mtDNA line.

Anyway, my main point really is to show there was ample time for an American to have "acquired" NA ancestry prior to the American Revolution. If a descendant in the mtDNA line of that ancestor happened to be a loyalist and "returned" to Great Britain, then the haplogroup would certainly have ended up there. No one would know unless an mtDNA line descendant of that person happened to take an mtDNA test.

So no one can dogmatically say whether C1b or any other Native American haplogroup ended up in Europe at some point in the last 200 or more years, or since then.

geebee
10-21-2020, 08:42 PM
Yes, he is just plain C1b. Look for 507599 at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/colonialcarolinas?iframe=mtresults He still has his most distant maternal ancestor as being from Italy even though she is Celeste de Aldrey (born 14 Dec 1908 in Caracas, Venezuela. Catholic Baptism 05 Sep 1909 Caracas, Venezuela) married to Cuban national Federico Buffa b. 31 July, 1905 in Rivarolo Canavese, Torino. The record of her Catholic baptism is at https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RT3-H91 See my post on his ancestry (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8504-mtDNA-haplogroup-C1b-(-Native-American)-But-they-re-all-from-Europe!&p=343039&viewfull=1&__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=601317c08b52e8c089702ed5c26f00 f4f8cd84a2-1579390498-0-AXQ3HJlyJ77Du1hRFpU9WNdVQFXz9Q_2Zr9nJRGyBmA_mRM1uD vpK2Ch8ZRjkZ831V9O8BeXyU8PjCnsYV3kS6_lODg6mZradN7g x1JRO52zgUuHwDkDDBXXP7aGJbGptWbqPkzIw8sR01uUQabcmS KEqe0PTvOUTNf8hthlOC48Mar6AwPOnRR2S1F9sHWU5eD0zp49 YwTJ4_7CEDeR8eqNNrLArE62S5ndSNKykrWUwV8ED2OQtZjkTa xaKc0eYGXXs10FwviESrl89p2JNG61IKRDFCtybVC21YeUo__g _58dyCUiXWPjdWtKDOnhmAZGs6D8Yo7brK0DOLUzjkw3wBhzoV Pa4mSmMRNnywCc6qOp3QgWp7JGKHlYPGFeBGZ7qpO6ntf0mnHp Cc0xmEg#post343039)

I think it would be interesting to know what YFull would find with an analysis of his FASTA file. They have an mtree at https://www.yfull.com/mtree/C1b/ based on FASTA files.

A determination of the American origin of his lineage would be pure conjecture even with the full FASTA file.

For some reason, it seems like most people -- when they think of Native American mtDNA in Europe or elsewhere outside the Americas -- want to think of some sort of "ancient" introduction. That isn't necessary. It has been over 500 years since Columbus's first voyage.

During that 500 years, a lot of people with primarily European descent managed to "acquire" a Native American haplogroup. Once that happened, as long as the line is all-female (except for the most recent member, who can be male), the haplogroup kept being passed on.

As I noted in an earlier post, I don't happen to have a Native American mtDNA haplogroup even though I have some Native American ancestry -- simply because my mtDNA was inherited on a different line. But there are certainly some people, including relatives of mine, who are on a "correct line".

By one estimate, there may be 9 million U.S. citizens currently living abroad. This doesn't include those serving in the U.S. armed forces, and it doesn't include those from any country of the Americas other than the U.S. I think it likely that at least a few of these may females with a Native American mtDNA haplogroup. If they become mothers, they will pass this haplogroup on -- regardless of where their children might be born, and absolutely independently of their children's nuclear DNA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration_from_the_United_States#:~:text=There%20 are%20no%20exact%20figures,U.S.%20citizens%20were% 20living%20abroad

From your post, it would seem that C1b at least was in Europe in the person of this Celeste de Aldrey that you mention. Do you know whether Celeste had any children who remained in Torino? If so, they would all have had the mtDNA haplogroup of C1b, even though living in Italy. If any of these children were female, they would also have passed on this same haplogroup.

But normally a haplogroup has to become somewhat widespread to be detected in a study. I don't know how many studies have detected my haplogroup of H1bg, even though it undoubtedly originated in Europe. It just isn't very widespread -- or perhaps it's too widespread, but simply not numerous enough anywhere to get a good idea of where it originated.

Again, though, that's why I take exception to broad assertions like "C1b never traveled from Europe to the Americas".

EDIT:

Curiously enough, when I looked at FTDNA Kit #507599, I see that what's listed under "Maternal Ancestor" is a masculine name, "Federico de Aldrey". From your post he seems to be the husband, and is presumably on the kit holder's maternal side.

But in my opinion, FTDNA has worded the column heading badly. They don't just mean "Maternal Ancestor", they actually mean "Most Distant Known mtDNA Ancestor". That perhaps is a little wordy, but I think "mtDNA Ancestor" would be clearer than just "Maternal Ancestor". Men can be maternal ancestors, but they can never be mtDNA ancestors!

Pylsteen
10-21-2020, 08:52 PM
Absolutely; I have one ancestor who went to Curaçao during the late 1600s and came back to Holland with two daughters. I don't know his wife's background (most likely Dutch too, (partly) native is also possible, the number of Africans was still low), but her maternal line is probably still present.

About the country of origin listed by ftdna testers, there are many who fill in the wrong line, e.g. their mother's paternal line instead of the maternal one.

geebee
10-21-2020, 09:26 PM
Just for the record, I am Cuban. Both parents and myself from the Eastern central part of the island. My parents both have Native American maternal haplogroups. Mine is A2 and my dad's is C1b. He only carries 5% NA, I carry 9% and my mom 12%.

I have many cousins with lower NA (one with less than 1%) and the most frequently occurring haplogroups are A, B, and C for maternal.

I think there is something you are missing. Given the fact that it does not show up in your autosomal dna means it's far back enough to where it has been easily overlooked.

I think I suggested in another post that I actually have two sources of Native American ancestry. One is through my maternal grandfather, and curiously the source here is male. The Y haplogroup -- which I do not have, because I'm not in a direct male line from this ancestor -- as indicated by FTDNA is most likely Q-M242, based on the Y haplogroup results of a number of his male-line descendants.

The second source of my Native American ancestry is through my maternal grandmother. This ancestor is the mother of my 6th great grandmother Magdeleine Pany Baudreau. It would appear, based on Magdeleine's all-female-line descendants, that her mtDNA haplogroup was C1b.

I do appear to have inherited some* autosomal DNA through both of my maternal grandparents, though much more from my grandfather than my grandmother. The share from my grandmother is less than 1%, though on paper it might be as much as 0.8%. But this is definitely an amount that by itself might be overlooked on some tests. As it is, I usually show between 1-2%.

Currently, Ancestry has gone down from 2% before the 2019 update to 1% on both the 2019 and 2020 updates. The difference between these two updates -- which I find fascinating -- is that the 2019 update said 1% "Indigenous Americas - North", which the 2020 update says 1% "Indigenous Americas - Mexico" and <1% "Indigenous Americas - North". For my daughter, whose Native American ancestry is entirely from me, Ancestry says the reverse: 1% "Indigenous Americas - North" and <1% "Indigenous Americas - Mexico".

I'm not surprised about PMCGUN04's lack of autosomal Native American. The mtDNA line will continue as long as it consists only of females -- at least until the very last person in the line, who can be male. But autosomal DNA tends to disappear over time unless it's "reintroduced". At some point, we have ancestors who are in our tree but who have not actually contributed any detectable amount of DNA to us.

Yet there are two lines along with DNA can be passed along indefinitely: the Y line, which is all male; and the mtDNA line, which is all-female.

Interestingly, your own Native American ancestry is just about the average of your parents', who together total 17%. From 8.5% to 9% is definitely pretty close to what you might expect!

On the other hand, once the percentage drops low enough, it begins to either be "passed on" or "passed out". So my daughter's genetic percentage is very little different from mine, even though her genealogical percentage is half of mine. My siblings generally show a fairly close percentage to my own, but some of those in the generation of our own children show about what my daughter does, while others show virtually none.

So I would guess that in another generation, members of my family probably won't show any Native American DNA any more, and since we don't have a Native American haplogroup there will be nothing to support this ancestry but a little bit of old documentary evidence.

By contrast, if the cousin "CC" that I mentioned in a previous post has children of her own, they will still carry our Native American ancestor's mtDNA. CC is already one generation further from this ancestor than I am, and so her children will be two generations removed, yet as long as there continue to be any daughters who have children, the mtDNA haplogroup will be carried on.

*EDIT:

Duh. Of course I've inherited some DNA from my maternal grandparents. 50%, as a matter of fact, between the two of them.

What I meant to write was that I've inherited some Native American DNA from each of these grandparents, and presumably therefore from the known Native American ancestor on each side.

geebee
10-21-2020, 09:46 PM
Absolutely; I have one ancestor who went to Curaçao during the late 1600s and came back to Holland with two daughters. I don't know his wife's background (most likely Dutch too, (partly) native is also possible, the number of Africans was still low), but her maternal line is probably still present.

About the country of origin listed by ftdna testers, there are many who fill in the wrong line, e.g. their mother's paternal line instead of the maternal one.

Even if they fill the lines in correctly, it may be confusing later. For example, my birth place is Germany even though both of my parents, and their parents, and their parents' parents, etc., were all born in the U.S. It's just that I happen to have been a U.S. military "brat", or an "U.S. Citizen Born Abroad". My father registered my birth with the U.S. Consulate in Munich, and while I don't have a birth certificate from any U.S. state, the U.S. State Department has a record of my birth.

But if I ever become a grandfather and my grandchild takes a DNA test from 23andMe, he or she will need to answer the "grandparent question" by listing me as a German-born grandparent. That will be true, but misleading, since I'm not a German by birth despite being born there. I do have some German ancestry, but I also have British, Spanish, and Native American ancestry (and everything else you see in my signature).

ArmandoR1b
10-31-2020, 10:22 PM
For some reason, it seems like most people -- when they think of Native American mtDNA in Europe or elsewhere outside the Americas -- want to think of some sort of "ancient" introduction. That isn't necessary. It has been over 500 years since Columbus's first voyage.

During that 500 years, a lot of people with primarily European descent managed to "acquire" a Native American haplogroup. Once that happened, as long as the line is all-female (except for the most recent member, who can be male), the haplogroup kept being passed on.

As I noted in an earlier post, I don't happen to have a Native American mtDNA haplogroup even though I have some Native American ancestry -- simply because my mtDNA was inherited on a different line. But there are certainly some people, including relatives of mine, who are on a "correct line".

By one estimate, there may be 9 million U.S. citizens currently living abroad. This doesn't include those serving in the U.S. armed forces, and it doesn't include those from any country of the Americas other than the U.S. I think it likely that at least a few of these may females with a Native American mtDNA haplogroup. If they become mothers, they will pass this haplogroup on -- regardless of where their children might be born, and absolutely independently of their children's nuclear DNA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration_from_the_United_States#:~:text=There%20 are%20no%20exact%20figures,U.S.%20citizens%20were% 20living%20abroad

That has absolutely nothing to do with the original poster since his maternal lineage has no documented ancestry in Europe.




From your post, it would seem that C1b at least was in Europe in the person of this Celeste de Aldrey that you mention.

You absolutely can't deduce that from my post. There isn't any documentation that ever shows Celeste de Aldrey traveling to or living in Torino or anywhere in Italy or Europe. You misread my post.


Do you know whether Celeste had any children who remained in Torino? If so, they would all have had the mtDNA haplogroup of C1b, even though living in Italy. If any of these children were female, they would also have passed on this same haplogroup.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that Celeste or that any of her children lived or visited Torino or Italy or any part of Europe.



But normally a haplogroup has to become somewhat widespread to be detected in a study. I don't know how many studies have detected my haplogroup of H1bg, even though it undoubtedly originated in Europe. It just isn't very widespread -- or perhaps it's too widespread, but simply not numerous enough anywhere to get a good idea of where it originated.
It doesn't have to be widespread. It can have a high frequency in specific regions without being widespread.




Again, though, that's why I take exception to broad assertions like "C1b never traveled from Europe to the Americas".
I was not the person to make that statement so I don't know why you are telling me that.




EDIT:

Curiously enough, when I looked at FTDNA Kit #507599, I see that what's listed under "Maternal Ancestor" is a masculine name, "Federico de Aldrey". From your post he seems to be the husband, and is presumably on the kit holder's maternal side.

Exactly. I had pointed out his direct maternal line in my previous posts. If you had read my previous posts, especially #20 (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8504-mtDNA-haplogroup-C1b-(-Native-American)-But-they-re-all-from-Europe!&p=343039&viewfull=1#post343039), this discussion could have been avoided.



But in my opinion, FTDNA has worded the column heading badly. They don't just mean "Maternal Ancestor", they actually mean "Most Distant Known mtDNA Ancestor". That perhaps is a little wordy, but I think "mtDNA Ancestor" would be clearer than just "Maternal Ancestor". Men can be maternal ancestors, but they can never be mtDNA ancestors!
I know what it means. It's the op that is confused. That wasn't the only thing he is confused about. Read his posts again and read my posts again. You'll see why he is confused about his ancestry and why he has an error in his genealogy.

geebee
11-01-2020, 03:07 AM
That has absolutely nothing to do with the original poster since his maternal lineage has no documented ancestry in Europe.




You absolutely can't deduce that from my post. There isn't any documentation that ever shows Celeste de Aldrey traveling to or living in Torino or anywhere in Italy or Europe. You misread my post.


There is absolutely no reason to believe that Celeste or that any of her children lived or visited Torino or Italy or any part of Europe.


It doesn't have to be widespread. It can have a high frequency in specific regions without being widespread.



I was not the person to make that statement so I don't know why you are telling me that.




Exactly. I had pointed out his direct maternal line in my previous posts. If you had read my previous posts, especially #20 (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8504-mtDNA-haplogroup-C1b-(-Native-American)-But-they-re-all-from-Europe!&p=343039&viewfull=1#post343039), this discussion could have been avoided.


I know what it means. It's the op that is confused. That wasn't the only thing he is confused about. Read his posts again and read my posts again. You'll see why he is confused about his ancestry and why he has an error in his genealogy.

Wow. I won't address this point-by-point, but you're right -- I did misread your post. Somehow, I was under the impression that though Celeste de Aldrey was born in Venezuela, she married in Italy. Obviously, that would have required her to go to Europe -- except, of course, that you never said that she ever went there. That was solely my inattentive reading.

As to other comments I made, they were not all directed to you -- I simply happened to make them in the same post in I had quoted you. In particular, I was not addressing my objection to the statement that "C1b never traveled from Europe to the Americas" to you -- since in fact I mistakenly believed that your post provided a counter-example in the person of Celeste de Aldrey.

ArmandoR1b
11-01-2020, 04:39 PM
Wow. I won't address this point-by-point, but you're right -- I did misread your post. Somehow, I was under the impression that though Celeste de Aldrey was born in Venezuela, she married in Italy. Obviously, that would have required her to go to Europe -- except, of course, that you never said that she ever went there. That was solely my inattentive reading.

As to other comments I made, they were not all directed to you -- I simply happened to make them in the same post in I had quoted you. In particular, I was not addressing my objection to the statement that "C1b never traveled from Europe to the Americas" to you -- since in fact I mistakenly believed that your post provided a counter-example in the person of Celeste de Aldrey.

It's quite unfortunate that PMCGUN04 has not realized his error. He should have posted in here his mistakes and the corrections and he should have also corrected his FTDNA Kit #507599 to show his Maternal Ancestor to be María García Bermúdez ca 1868 Caracas, Venezuela and that there is no indication that Celeste de Aldrey ever went to Europe and that the Aldrey surname is from Galicia or Asturias and not Norman. Aldrey means "aldea del rey" which are words that exist in Castillian Spanish. Aldea is a word that comes from Arabic - https://dle.rae.es/aldea and rey is a word that comes from Latin - https://dle.rae.es/rey?m=form So neither come from Norman.

There is a very large percentage of people that don't understand genealogy and mtDNA lineages and PMCGUN04 is one of them. They cause a lot of people to jump to conclusions based on their self reporting instead of questioning if they actually understand the mtDNA lineage.

ArmandoR1b
11-01-2020, 04:41 PM
Absolutely; I have one ancestor who went to Curaçao during the late 1600s and came back to Holland with two daughters. I don't know his wife's background (most likely Dutch too, (partly) native is also possible, the number of Africans was still low), but her maternal line is probably still present.

About the country of origin listed by ftdna testers, there are many who fill in the wrong line, e.g. their mother's paternal line instead of the maternal one.

He has the wrong person listed for his direct maternal line. I had already posted his genealogy in this same thread proving that fact. See post #20 (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8504-mtDNA-haplogroup-C1b-(-Native-American)-But-they-re-all-from-Europe!&p=343039&viewfull=1#post343039).