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emmental
04-27-2013, 02:03 PM
I see the first results for CTS188 are in and both Recourt and Monnier are negative. A bit of a surprise. Maybe the two Spanish and two Alsatian members should test.

Belgae
04-27-2013, 02:38 PM
Hi Jim,

Indeed, I am also surprised to be CTS 188 negative, esp since Monnier and I appear quite closely related to Konther. But, if I am correct, different screening procedures have been used (PCR & Geno 2.0 DNA chip)? If so, I would feel more confident on the results in case FTDNA has used the Konther DNA as a positive control.

R.Rocca
04-27-2013, 03:03 PM
I'm surprised as well. It makes me wonder if perhaps we'll find that CTS188 is a level below either CTS4333 and/or CTS7958 at some point.

emmental
04-27-2013, 03:15 PM
Hallo Kees,

I don't know why the results for the guy in my project didn't come in. It was in the first batch (#509) tested. Perhaps it failed. It seems I need to be patient. B)

Hi Rich,

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. If our results come back negative I might have to sneak an order for Geno in without my wife finding out. :P

CelticGerman
04-27-2013, 08:58 PM
I'm surprised as well. It makes me wonder if perhaps we'll find that CTS188 is a level below either CTS4333 and/or CTS7958 at some point.

I am curious to see the GENO 2.0 result of Monnier as far as CTS4333 and CTS7958 are concerned. We will still have to wait a few weeks I presume.

Solothurn
05-10-2013, 09:07 AM
I made contact with a Z36 on facebook: Gerard Hugenholtz, he is in the U152 project.
I have informed him of this forum/thread :)

emmental
05-10-2013, 11:37 AM
The CTS188 results are in for the Musselman/Mosimann clan. Negative.

Gerard
05-10-2013, 02:01 PM
I made contact with a Z36 on facebook: Gerard Hugenholtz, he is in the U152 project.
I have informed him of this forum/thread :)
Thanks Solothurn, I just registered. Wasn't very busy on the topic. I'll try to find out if there is anything interesting to test at the moment.

Solothurn
05-11-2013, 02:37 PM
Welcome aboard Gerard :)


Thanks Solothurn, I just registered. Wasn't very busy on the topic. I'll try to find out if there is anything interesting to test at the moment.

R.Rocca
05-11-2013, 06:10 PM
Thanks Solothurn, I just registered. Wasn't very busy on the topic. I'll try to find out if there is anything interesting to test at the moment.

Gerard, please consider testing for Z54 and CTS188 if you have not done so already.

Solothurn
05-13-2013, 11:39 AM
He has ordered Geno 2.0 :)

He is in Steve's latest tracker update too now, as am I.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bwo12PDVxPwwV01PbXBBbkxIQ3c/edit?pli=1



Gerard, please consider testing for Z54 and CTS188 if you have not done so already.

R.Rocca
05-19-2013, 01:26 AM
Good news. As part of the 1000 Genomes Phase III data, I found a third Z36+ Z54- Z143- sample. When comparing the samples, two of them share no less than 47 new SNPs!!! Now the downside. The two samples are from Colombia, and while they are not related and have thousands of Y-SNPs where they don't match, this might be a regional cluster. Where that cluster originated (Spain?) is anyone's guess. On a positive note, any one of these SNPs might be widely distributed in other Z36 folks.

emmental
05-19-2013, 02:51 AM
OK Rich, Your last post pushed me to decide to try the full Y genome test you referenced earlier. Could you Please email me some info about this? It's quite a big investment for me and I want to be sure I'm ordering the right test from the right company.

R.Rocca
05-19-2013, 06:15 PM
OK Rich, Your last post pushed me to decide to try the full Y genome test you referenced earlier. Could you Please email me some info about this? It's quite a big investment for me and I want to be sure I'm ordering the right test from the right company.

OK, I sent you an email with some details. Let me know what you decide and I'll add you to the tracker.

emmental
05-19-2013, 08:12 PM
You can add me to the tracker, Rich. I just placed my order.

Gerard
06-14-2013, 05:02 PM
Hi all, I ordered geno 2.0 and send my samples back 2 weeks ago. I just checked and they've already received it back. According to the schedule I have to wait for another 6-8 weeks before they report my results. Looking forward to it.

Solothurn
06-19-2013, 04:06 PM
Mine took less than a month! Hope yours is as quick!

Hi all, I ordered geno 2.0 and send my samples back 2 weeks ago. I just checked and they've already received it back. According to the schedule I have to wait for another 6-8 weeks before they report my results. Looking forward to it.

Belgae
11-25-2013, 06:00 PM
Thanks for the Full Y SNP overview Jim!

I am intrigued by the fact that we both have 55-60 separate personal SNPs, below Z36, representing about 100 yrs each. Indeed, then the date of birth of Z36 would be about 3500-4000 BC, instead of 2000 BC. Our common ancestor may be from the Swiss Pfyn region? See also Pfyn culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfyn_culture). So we may call Mr Z36, the man from Pfyn?

emmental
11-25-2013, 08:34 PM
Thanks for the Full Y SNP overview Jim!

I am intrigued by the fact that we both have 55-60 separate personal SNPs, below Z36, representing about 100 yrs each. Indeed, then the date of birth of Z36 would be about 3500-4000 BC, instead of 2000 BC. Our common ancestor may be from the Swiss Pfyn region? See also Pfyn culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfyn_culture). So we may call Mr Z36, the man from Pfyn?


Hi Kees

I, too, am surprised by the amount of SNPs found. I wasn't quite expecting that many. There will probably be a lot of study done with aging the different haplogroups by counting SNPs as more results come in, but it seems more likely that the age will move back in time than forward.

According to Dr Hammer at the recent FTDNA Conference, R1b came to Europe later than previously thought (very late neolithic/ post neolithic). It's all so confusing at this point.

I suggest giving the name OPA to Mr. Z36. For the Low Countries that could mean "grandfather" and for the English and Americans it could mean "Our Paternal Ancestor." :)

Solothurn
11-26-2013, 11:54 AM
I recently read that SNPs occur every 1-2 generations. I cannot remember where I read it though :P


Thanks for the Full Y SNP overview Jim!

I am intrigued by the fact that we both have 55-60 separate personal SNPs, below Z36, representing about 100 yrs each. Indeed, then the date of birth of Z36 would be about 3500-4000 BC, instead of 2000 BC. Our common ancestor may be from the Swiss Pfyn region? See also Pfyn culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfyn_culture). So we may call Mr Z36, the man from Pfyn?

Belgae
11-27-2013, 11:17 PM
Ha, Opa is a nice name :) Whether he was Opa Pfyn we may learn later... (do you have any Dutch relatives Jim?)



I recently read that SNPs occur every 1-2 generations. I cannot remember where I read it though :P

According to this Nature paper the SNP frequency is about 10(-8) per base pare per generation (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v467/n7319/full/nature09534.html), which is the same number I found before = 1 SNP per 100 million bp per generation. Since Full Genome Corp sequences about 20-25 Mbp, each SNP would represent about 4 generations (http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Full_Genomes_Corporation). But it would be different when using the 14 million bp with reliable mappings (high quality SNPs).

Maybe some other forum member may shed some light on this aspect? How can we use private SNPs to calculate towards the first common ancestor?

emmental
11-28-2013, 12:00 AM
Ha, Opa is a nice name :) Whether he was Opa Pfyn we may learn later... (do you have any Dutch relatives Jim?)






Dutch ancestors would probably describe it better. All the families in my ancestry were in America by 1750. Most of them were Swiss and Dutch Mennonites. (The Dutch Mennonites also included German families from near the Dutch border, such as Krefeld, Kleve and Goch.)

emmental
11-28-2013, 04:22 PM
"These are a lot of SNPs in common... Should these independent SNPs are all downstream Z36 (?), I would presume a medieval relationship when using a SNP mutation rate of 10(-8) per base per generation (http://biochem218.stanford.edu/16SNPs.pdf). This equals about one novel SNP per 100 Mbp per generation. Since FGC sequenced about 25 Mbp of the Y, and presuming simple statistics, each novel SNP represents about four generations.

Thus these are 4* about 27 = 108 generations in common = 108 times 30 years is about 3250 years after SNP Z36 has occured. According to previous STR calculations, Z36 is about 4000 years old, so a common ancestor would be at about 4000 - 3250 = 750 years ago = 1250 AD +/- x years of deviation ..."

Hi Kees,

I've been thinking about this and I believe you might be right with this estimate. The Bernese cluster of "15/14/20/9" has several members in the U152 Project. I have identified several other Bernese families from SMGF and Y-search who have the same STR signature. A very small percentage of families are tested, so there may be many more. The families in this cluster seem to be related within the past 800 years.

Further, not all of the novel SNPs found in sequencing will be stable and haplogroup specific. But, the ones which matched the 1KG sample have a higher probability of being stable. Therefore, there should be a smaller number of stable SNPs between us.

I do think there is a good possibility that the 1KG sample and me share a common ancestor about 800 years ago.

Belgae
11-29-2013, 06:00 PM
Further, not all of the novel SNPs found in sequencing will be stable and haplogroup specific. But, the ones which matched the 1KG sample have a higher probability of being stable. Therefore, there should be a smaller number of stable SNPs between us. I do think there is a good possibility that the 1KG sample and me share a common ancestor about 800 years ago.

OK, Jim. Indeed the point you make is of course of relevance. Are all novel SNPs indeed stable SNPs, variant alleles of a specific base and identifiable with a population instead of a less frequent mutation? See here an interesting discussion on the web: http://www.researchgate.net/post/What_is_the_difference_between_a_SNP_and_a_mutatio n

emmental
12-01-2013, 01:15 AM
It looks like Konther just signed up for the Big Y, so the Z36 sequencing list should look something like this:

195362 Rocourt FGC
204013 Musselman FGC
N21533 Heeb Big Y
199556 Monnier Big Y
198590 Mollestad Big Y
5825 Strang Big Y
E10249 Konther Big Y

emmental
12-16-2013, 01:36 PM
Hold your ground. Hold your ground, Sons of the Alps - the Rhine - my Brothers! I see in your eyes that same fear that would take the heart out of me. The day may come when the courage of Z36 men fails; when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship; but it is not this day - an hour of swabs and shattered hopes, when the Age of Man comes crashing down - but it is not this day!! This day we test! By all that you hold dear on this good earth - I bid you stand, Men of Z36!


As we have entered into the “next generation” of DNA testing there are more testing opportunities and strategies. Kees and I have our results from Full Genomes Corp with about one hundred new SNPs between us to look at. Five other Z36 individuals will soon have results from FTDNA’s Big Y test. Thomas Krahn who formerly oversaw the WTY program with FTDNA has begun his own company, YSEQ, which will test individual SNPS. He has already designed 40 primers for my novel SNPs and they will be available for testing shortly. These are the opportunities. Now we need a strategy!

I think the first action we need to take is to strengthen the group. This forum is a good place to get together so that we can work together. We know there are a handful of Z36 who have posted on these forums, but we don’t know how many may be following without posting. Sign in and introduce yourself if you want to take part in this project. If you have been in contact with another Z36, contact them again and invite them to join this forum.

It was found that Kees and I have no common SNPs under Z36. While this was disappointing, it did help to introduce many more opportunities for others to match. The five men who are testing with the Big Y will hopefully match one of these and help to identify a major subclade or two. This will help others to chose which individual SNPs to test for.

By working together we can fill out our haplotree and discover more about our forefathers. We may even make some new friends.

ricstrick
12-17-2013, 07:24 PM
Hi, my name is Ric and I am Z36, CTS188-.

R.Rocca
12-17-2013, 11:50 PM
Hi, my name is Ric and I am Z36, CTS188-.

Welcome Ric!

Belgae
12-19-2013, 01:25 AM
Hi, my name is Ric and I am Z36, CTS188-.

Indeed, welcome to the Z36 family 'cousin' Ric. In this thread, we try to unravel and understand the Z36 relationships further into more detail.
Kees

emmental
12-20-2013, 05:34 PM
I looked at the GD of the seven Z36 sequencing candidates and found them to range from 17/67 to 23/67. Heeb/Musselman was the closest at 17/67 and Strang/Konther were the farthest at 23/67. This is not much of a difference in variation, so it's anybody's guess as to how the testing will come out. Musselman and Recourt have a GD of 20/67 and there were no common novel SNPs found in the FGC sequencing. I also checked Ric's GD with the seven and he is the closest to Recourt with a GD of 16/67.

Monnier, Heeb, Mollestad, Musselman and Konther are all in the DYS437=14 / H4=11 group which I had mentioned before. Maybe something will be found here. Strang is in the 15/10 group and Recourt in the much smaller 15/11 group which actually should be the largest as it is the modal group.

Also, I was just notified that the novel SNPs found in my sequencing are now available for Sanger testing through YSEQ, Thomas and Astrid Krahn's new company. They are in the FGC series beginning at 6410 and going through 6461. The Krahns were able to design primers for 40 of the 52 SNPs found. I have no idea yet of how they are ordered from oldest to most recent. Hopefully the Big Y will help to find the older ones so that we can begin testing. Right now it would be hard to suggest which to test for, although I may request someone from the Bernese cluster to begin testing.

ricstrick
12-20-2013, 08:13 PM
Since I have been confirmed as CTS188-, should I still be in the C:c group, or does it even matter? Clearly it seems, with the recent developments, the only thing left for me is a Big Y or FGS test, correct? I am still trying to grasp the science, nomenclature and ramifications of the testing processes. I feel like I should take some remedial genetics, bio-chemistry, archaeology, history, linguistic and humanities courses! This is really interesting and thought provoking.

emmental
12-20-2013, 09:59 PM
Since I have been confirmed as CTS188-, should I still be in the C:c group, or does it even matter? Clearly it seems, with the recent developments, the only thing left for me is a Big Y or FGS test, correct? I am still trying to grasp the science, nomenclature and ramifications of the testing processes. I feel like I should take some remedial genetics, bio-chemistry, archaeology, history, linguistic and humanities courses! This is really interesting and thought provoking.

Hi Ric,

Yes, you still belong in the C:c group. This is the group which has tested for an SNP or SNPs below Z36 and found negative.

Now that the Krahns have started YSEQ which responds quickly to newly found SNPs, there is the option to wait for others to test FGC or Big Y and then "wish" the SNPs in order to test for individual SNPs when they become available. In my opinion, this would take much more time and might end up costing more at $35 per SNP.

The Big Y is an option. It's expensive, but you will learn a lot quickly. FGC is even more expensive, but it gives you all the information possible at this time. Not only does it sequence about twice as much of the Y chromosome, it also gives you your mtDNA and a few hundred STRs. I guess it all depends on your interest level and how much hobby money you want to spend.

Genealogy has been my hobby for about 30 years now. For the past 2 1/2 years I have also been interested in DNA testing, both STRs for surname studies and SNPs which take you from surnames to "Adam." I find it fascinating to be on the cutting edge of discovering new understandings of our history and heritage. Hey, you only live once. I want to discover as much as I can while I'm still around.

Belgae
12-24-2013, 04:27 PM
Monnier, Heeb, Mollestad, Musselman and Konther are all in the DYS437=14 / H4=11 group which I had mentioned before. Maybe something will be found here. Strang is in the 15/10 group and Recourt in the much smaller 15/11 group which actually should be the largest as it is the modal group.

Hi Jim, Didn't we also use the STRs at loci D391/D437 to discriminate within Z36 cluster? https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/sTWpXIaZqMDRRrux4dqEPtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=d irectlink

For all, enjoy your Christmas hollidays and may 2014 further elucidate the relationships within the Z36 family!

ricstrick
12-27-2013, 12:09 AM
Yes, you still belong in the C:c group. This is the group which has tested for an SNP or SNPs below Z36 and found negative. Seems like I should be moved to C3 since the heading of C:c implies that the members of the group have not been tested for CTS188; but I have tested negative which on the one hand seems to make me C3 but I realize that for practical purposes it doesn't matter because I still need to pull the trigger on a full sequence test. Thanks for the help!

emmental
12-27-2013, 02:54 AM
Seems like I should be moved to C3 since the heading of C:c implies that the members of the group have not been tested for CTS188; but I have tested negative which on the one hand seems to make me C3 but I realize that for practical purposes it doesn't matter because I still need to pull the trigger on a full sequence test. Thanks for the help!

Hi Ric,

Group C is those who have not tested for anything below Z36.
Group C:c is those who have tested negative for something below Z36 (most tested the Z series when it first came out, later, some tested for CTS188)
The groups with C followed by a number (C:1, C:2, etc) are for those tested positive for an SNP (or back mutatuion) under Z36.

Have a Happy New Year everyone!

ricstrick
12-27-2013, 04:36 AM
Thanks, Jim, now I get it. Happy New Year.

Kråke
12-29-2013, 10:46 AM
I am novis, but I hope to learn.
some data about me:
FTDNA kit #B1802
U152+, z36+, CTS188-, L671-z143-, z54-, z56-, DYS492=12

My grandfathers grandfather is unknown. I have a hypothesis that his ancestry can come from Wallonia (Name Farke or Fark and they could came from Spanish Netherlands or city Sedan). The family Farke came to Sweden around 1650.

I live in Västerås, Sweden

emmental
12-29-2013, 11:38 AM
Welcome Kråke!

Cascio
12-29-2013, 04:02 PM
I am also in the Cc group as I have turned up negative for Z143.

FTDNA Kit No 272437...Andrea (Andrew) Paolini...Garfagnana area,NW Tuscany, late 17th Century.

Rathna
12-29-2013, 04:37 PM
I am also in the Cc group as I have turned up negative for Z143.

FTDNA Kit No 272437...Andrea (Andrew) Paolini...Garfagnana area,NW Tuscany, late 17th Century.
Very rare haplotype. No one matches you on YHRD. These are the closest ones, and it isn't said they are R-U152. Perhaps it would be interesting an upgrade.

14 14 31 24 11 13 13 11,11 3 >>
1 14 14 31 24 11 13 13 11,11 12 11 15 19 15 17 23 12 18 23 14 12 16 10 - >>
1 14 14 31 24 11 13 13 11,11 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 14 14 31 24 11 13 13 11,11 12 13 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
2 of 120 Quito, Ecuador [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 345 Asturias, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
14 15 31 24 11 13 13 11,11 1 >>
1 14 15 31 24 11 13 13 11,11 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -
1 of 192 Southern Portugal, Portugal [Portuguese] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

Rathna
12-29-2013, 05:11 PM
This is a Spaniard Z36+ pretty close in the first 12 markers and could demonstrate that also the other Iberians could be U152.
Interesting the series
8 10 10 8 11 10
11 13 11 11 11 12
which could demonstrate the ancientness.

121964 Spain R1b1a2a1a1b3
13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 11 15 13 31 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-17-17 11 10 19-23 16 15 19 18 34-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 22-23 15 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 11 12

Cascio
12-30-2013, 08:47 AM
Rathna, which part of Spain is this Z36 customer from?

Rathna
12-30-2013, 09:39 AM
Rathna, which part of Spain is this Z36 customer from?

Cascio, if the other haplotypes found on YHRD from Iberia or South America of probably Iberian descent are R-U152, I think it isn't important to know which part of Spain he comes from: this haplogroup is diffused in Iberia. But, as R-U152 was born probably in Italy (and it seems to me becoming more and more reliable : see the thread about R-L2/PF7600) and is a minority in Iberia, my idea is that Iberians come from Italy: if the haplotypes are recent, probably during the Roman Empire, if they are ancient, with the previous migrations from Italy (the first 7500YBP, others with the Ligurian/Celt peoples).
You come from Tuscany like me. Your place of origin (Garfagnana) has one of the highest percentage of R1b all over the world and above all of R-U152. The few people from my zone at the limits of Versilia (the Ligurian world by a genetic point of view) tested by 23andMe, are all R-U152, and the people tested by me are:
Federighi R-M269*/DYS462=12
Me and my son (Tognoni del Badia) R-Z2105+/L277-/L584-
Tognarelli (whose family came to Pisa province probably from Fivizzano, Lunigiana) R-Z2105+/L277-/L584-
Malvolti R-U152 (probably, tested by SMGF)
Coltelli R-M269 (only 12 markers).

P.S. Id est R1b 100%. Someone gave in the past a 95% to Garfagnana. Now someone speaks of 70%. Anyway high.

R.Rocca
12-30-2013, 01:23 PM
I am also in the Cc group as I have turned up negative for Z143.

FTDNA Kit No 272437...Andrea (Andrew) Paolini...Garfagnana area,NW Tuscany, late 17th Century.

I think it is now clear that Z36+ Z54+ Z143+ is only common in a small area of Tuscany where the 1000 Genome Project samples were collected, which I suspect is near Florence (Firenze).

Cascio
12-30-2013, 02:29 PM
Rathna, according to Tibor Feher in 2010, R-U152 originated either in the Terremare culture of Northern Italy or in Central Europe.
The Z36 branch seems to have arisen in Switzerland or SW Germany.

Acque agitate
12-30-2013, 02:42 PM
I think it is now clear that Z36+ Z54+ Z143+ is only common in a small area of Tuscany where the 1000 Genome Project samples were collected, which I suspect is near Florence (Firenze).

exactly: Sesto Fiorentino

emmental
01-09-2014, 03:47 PM
Hi Jim, Didn't we also use the STRs at loci D391/D437 to discriminate within Z36 cluster? https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/sTWpXIaZqMDRRrux4dqEPtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=d irectlink

For all, enjoy your Christmas hollidays and may 2014 further elucidate the relationships within the Z36 family!

Hi Kees, Sorry it took so long to respond, but there was a death in the family during the holidays and I was distracted.

Yes, we had been using D391, but as I took a closer look I saw that there wasn't very much variance between the Z36 and R1b modals at this marker. (Z36 - 31.25% are off-modal at 10; R1b - 29% are off-modal at 10)

Compared to D437: Z36 - 41.94% are off-modal at 14 ; R1b - 12% are off-modal at 14; and H4: Z36 - 47.54% are off-modal at 10; R1b - 20% are off-modal at 10. (These are updated and include the newest Z36 member, #290804.)

The updated numbers are:
D437=15/16 and H4=10 - 27 of 61 or 44.26%
D437=14 and H4=11/12 - 23 of 61 or 37.70%
D437=15 and H4=11 - 9 of 61 or 14.75% (this should be the largest group as both are the modal for Z36 and R1b)!!
D437=14 and H4=10 - 2 of 61 or 3.28%

FYI, R1b allele frequencies were found here: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~geneticgenealogy/yfreq.htm

Belgae
01-11-2014, 12:51 AM
Hi Kees, Sorry it took so long to respond, but there was a death in the family during the holidays and I was distracted.

Yes, we had been using D391, but as I took a closer look I saw that there wasn't very much variance between the Z36 and R1b modals at this marker. (Z36 - 31.25% are off-modal at 10; R1b - 29% are off-modal at 10)




My sincerest condolences to you and your family, Jim.

Your reasoning on the alternative Dys markers appear logical. I will try to find out whether adapted calculations using the Fluxus software render novel insights.

R.Rocca
01-17-2014, 08:13 PM
Another U152(xL2) has tested Z36+ in north-west Italy: Kit no. 290804, Bartholomaeus de L, ~1461, Casalbuttano, Cremona, Lombardy.

Here is a comparison of how the Northern Italian U152(xL2) samples in the FTDNA project have tested so far:

U152+ Z36+: 77.8% (7 of 9)
U152+ Z56+: 11.1% (1 of 9)
U152(xL2,Z36,Z56): 11.1% (1 of 9)

As I've posted before, there is a similar situation in Western Switzerland where a large amount of U152(xL2) is Z36. I should mention that the lone northern Z56+ sample in the FTDNA project was from NE Italy.

What is interesting is that the two latest studies from (Boattini 2013 and Coia 2013) have shown large frequencies of U152(xL2) in Northern Italy. It is easy to speculate that perhaps Z36 may reach 30%-40% of the total male population in some of these areas!

emmental
01-18-2014, 02:34 AM
Another U152(xL2) has tested Z36+ in north-west Italy: Kit no. 290804, Bartholomaeus de L, ~1461, Casalbuttano, Cremona, Lombardy.

Here is a comparison of how the Northern Italian U152(xL2) samples in the FTDNA project have tested so far:

U152+ Z36+: 77.8% (7 of 9)
U152+ Z56+: 11.1% (1 of 9)
U152(xL2,Z36,Z56): 11.1% (1 of 9)

As I've posted before, there is a similar situation in Western Switzerland where a large amount of U152(xL2) is Z36. I should mention that the lone northern Z56+ sample in the FTDNA project was from NE Italy.

What is interesting is that the two latest studies from (Boattini 2013 and Coia 2013) have shown large frequencies of U152(xL2) in Northern Italy. It is easy to speculate that perhaps Z36 may reach 30%-40% of the total male population in some of these areas!

Yes, Rich, I noticed that the new Z36 member was from Northern Italy and it got me thinking about the Upper Rhone and all the passes leading to Northern Italy. It seems as though Z36 may have spread West to East up the Rhone from SE France. At Lake Geneva some followed the Rhone up towards Sion and Brig, some followed the north side of the alps into the Bernese Oberland, and others went north to Neuchatel. They may have thrived in the secluded Alpine valleys and steadily filtered down the Rhine (Swiss) and into Tuscany, Lombardy and Piedmont (Italian).

Cascio
01-21-2014, 11:23 AM
My results for 25 markers have arrived.

My Z36 cluster seems to be the red Swiss cluster as set out by Recourt/Belgae and others with a DYS 391/437 combination of 11 and 14.

Rathna
01-21-2014, 01:26 PM
My results for 25 markers have arrived.

My Z36 cluster seems to be the red Swiss cluster as set out by Recourt/Belgae and others with a DYS 391/437 combination of 11 and 14.

272437 Andrea Paolini Late 17th C. Cascio, Garfagnana, IT Italy R1b1a2a1a1b3
13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 11 15 13 32 17 9-9 11 11 24 14 19 30 14-15-17-17

Cascio, before saying that your haplotype is similar to the Swiss ones (as if it descended from those), see if you find amongst them (or others) someone who has DYS389I and II=15-32 or close to them. In only these markers you have had, starting from the values of 13-29, two mutations in DYS389I and one mutation in DYS389II.
Your Garfagnana could be the origin of your haplogroup (and others) and not the other way around.

Rathna
01-21-2014, 01:52 PM
Your haplotype is so rare, that no one matches it on YHRD. These are the closest ones:
14 14 31 24 11 13 13 11,11 3 >>
1 14 14 31 24 11 13 13 11,11 12 11 15 19 15 17 23 12 18 23 14 12 16 10 - >>
1 14 14 31 24 11 13 13 11,11 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 14 14 31 24 11 13 13 11,11 12 13 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
2 of 120 Quito, Ecuador [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 345 Asturias, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
14 15 31 24 11 13 13 11,11 1 >>
1 14 15 31 24 11 13 13 11,11 12 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 of 192 Southern Portugal, Portugal [Portuguese] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

The last is the closest, because lacks, as the the others, only the mutation of DYS389II from 31 to 32, but has also DYS439=12 instead of your 11. The Iberian origin, where R-U152 isn't so diffused like in Italy, makes us think either that they are R-P312 coinciding by chance with your haplotype (which would remain isolated so far) or to a recent Roman origin, which would bring to Italy again.

Cascio
01-21-2014, 01:52 PM
272437 Andrea Paolini Late 17th C. Cascio, Garfagnana, IT Italy R1b1a2a1a1b3
13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 11 15 13 32 17 9-9 11 11 24 14 19 30 14-15-17-17

Cascio, before saying that your haplotype is similar to the Swiss ones (as if it descended from those), see if you find amongst them (or others) someone who has DYS389I and II=15-32 or close to them. In only these markers you have had, starting from the values of 13-29, two mutations in DYS389I and one mutation in DYS389II.
Your Garfagnana could be origin of your haplogroup (and others) and not the other way around.


Thanks for your feedback.
:)
Rathna, do you think Z36 originated in Northern Italy?

R.Rocca
01-21-2014, 02:02 PM
My results for 25 markers have arrived.

My Z36 cluster seems to be the red Swiss cluster as set out by Recourt/Belgae and others with a DYS 391/437 combination of 11 and 14.

As is the case with L2, there still seem to be plenty of undiscovered SNPs below Z36. I have no doubt some of the Full Genomes and Big-Y results will start to reveal them.

Rathna
01-21-2014, 02:15 PM
As is the case with L2, there still seem to be plenty of undiscovered SNPs below Z36. I have no doubt some of the Full Genomes and Big-Y results will start to reveal them.

But as I said about L2 (given not Italian in its origin from the most part of people) which would have given many surprises to Italians (see Bedini, Montaguti, but the same Francalacci, who has some SNPs in common with the Sardinians and is a Leghornese of Pisan origin but who comes like me from the Florentine zone for his L2*), the same I say about Z36.

R.Rocca
01-21-2014, 02:57 PM
But as I said about L2 (given not Italian in its origin from the most part of people) which would have given many surprises to Italians (see Bedini, Montaguti, but the same Francalacci, who has some SNPs in common with the Sardinians and is a Leghornese of Pisan origin but who comes like me from the Florentine zone for his L2*), the same I say about Z36.

Dr. Francalacci was a big help with matching Montaguti's SNPs. I will also send him additional results when they come in (including mine of course).

emmental
01-21-2014, 09:41 PM
My results for 25 markers have arrived.

My Z36 cluster seems to be the red Swiss cluster as set out by Recourt/Belgae and others with a DYS 391/437 combination of 11 and 14.

I agree with Rathna and Rich that you should be cautious comparing to the Swiss cluster.

First, the DYS391 doesn't seem to be any kind of marker for an early division in Z36. The number of off-modal DYS391 doesn't seem to stand out like the DYS437 and H4 off-modal numbers. I believe that an early Z36 man had a DYS437=14 mutation and another early Z36 member had a H4=10 mutation and the lines of both of these men were very successful. But there should be other mutations after these two lines came into existence and it is probable that there are other similar mutations which took place at a later time.

I would look at your own personal off-modal markers to compare to start.

Cascio
01-21-2014, 10:43 PM
I agree with Rathna and Rich that you should be cautious comparing to the Swiss cluster.

First, the DYS391 doesn't seem to be any kind of marker for an early division in Z36. The number of off-modal DYS391 doesn't seem to stand out like the DYS437 and H4 off-modal numbers. I believe that an early Z36 man had a DYS437=14 mutation and another early Z36 member had a H4=10 mutation and the lines of both of these men were very successful. But there should be other mutations after these two lines came into existence and it is probable that there are other similar mutations which took place at a later time.

I would look at your own personal off-modal markers to compare to start.

How can we be sure which side of the Alps Z36 originated in?

On Ftdna I am at a genetic distance of 1 to one Frenchman and two Englishmen.
I have no exact matches.

Rathna
01-21-2014, 11:03 PM
How can we be sure which side of the Alps Z36 originated in?

On Ftdna I am at a genetic distance of 1 to one Frenchman and two Englishmen.
I have no exact matches.

Unfortunately Ysearch is out now and I cannot see, but are you sure that they are R-Z36? The matches may be with completely different haplogroups only for convergent mutations. Anyway if you have these haplotypes and you send them to me, I'll study them ([email protected]).
About the origin, we should say that people, above all the hunter-gatherers, didn't live in the same place and probably they went and came from Italy to Switzerland and Germany/France and vice-versa.

R.Rocca
01-22-2014, 07:24 PM
Just to let everyone know, Kees is now a co-administrator of the U152 project. He will concentrating his efforts on Z36. His help will be especially important when Big-Y data starts to come in.

mafe
01-22-2014, 07:48 PM
Just to let everyone know, Kees is now a co-administrator of the U152 project. He will concentrating his efforts on Z36. His help will be especially important when Big-Y data starts to come in.

Kees, Van harte! (congrats)

emmental
01-22-2014, 08:19 PM
This is great news!! Congratulations Kees.

Belgae
01-22-2014, 09:59 PM
Thanks for the congratulations! I will do my best in analyzing, interpreting & sharing novel Z36 data, which will certainly shed more light on our origin and subsequent dispersion.
Kees

Belgae
02-05-2014, 05:01 PM
On the origin of Z36

Before being involved in analysing downstream Z36 SNPs on basis of Y chromosome DNA sequencing, I am trying to understand the role of SNP Z36 in the "U152 landscape". I made a map on the distribution of U152 and its primary SNPs in Europe using the FT DNA database. Further, I also determined the TMRCAs of the major SNPs using the variance spread sheet as published by Tim Janzen. You can find the summarizing results as a pdf file here: U152 and subclades distribution in Europe (http://www.recourt.eu/U152_GEO.pdf)

Although this is not an academic study, my conclusion is that the primary downstream SNPs of U152 (L2, Z36, Z56, ..) already were homogenously distributed throughout the U152 'homeland' population, prior to major migrations have occurred.

So, indeed downstream Z36 SNPs may reveal more in detail on how we have migrated through Europe ...

emmental
02-05-2014, 06:41 PM
On the origin of Z36

Before being involved in analysing downstream Z36 SNPs on basis of Y chromosome DNA sequencing, I am trying to understand the role of SNP Z36 in the "U152 landscape". I made a map on the distribution of U152 and its primary SNPs in Europe using the FT DNA database. Further, I also determined the TMRCAs of the major SNPs using the variance spread sheet as published by Tim Janzen. You can find the summarizing results as a pdf file here: U152 and subclades distribution in Europe (http://www.recourt.eu/U152_GEO.pdf)

Although this is not an academic study, my conclusion is that the primary downstream SNPs of U152 (L2, Z36, Z56, ..) already were homogenously distributed throughout the U152 'homeland' population, prior to major migrations have occurred.

So, indeed downstream Z36 SNPs may reveal more in detail on how we have migrated through Europe ...

Very interesting Kees! Great job.

My first thoughts:
...I was surprised at the lack of Z36 in the lower Rhone (SE France)
...I wasn't surprised to see that the pie charts for Switzerland and Mannheim area (Palatinate) were almost identical. I believe that many of the men representing the Mannheim area are descended from early 18thC US immigrants who were 1 generation removed from Switzerland.
...Almost 30% of the project members are from the Isles which isn't a hotspot for U152. The percentage of L2 is much higher in the Isles. Maybe the overall percentage of U152>L2 isn't quite as high as 56% of U152.
...Z36 looks very Alpine.
...It would be nice to separate Northern Italy into NE and NW Italy. There should be a difference between the percentages of L2 and xL2 on either side of the Adige Valley.

MitchellSince1893
02-06-2014, 05:18 AM
Per Kees Recourt's table:

If you only look at sample populations > 10 for total U152 (an attempt to remove small sample errors), It appears L2 generally increases in percentage as one moves northwest of the core U152 areas (S. Germany, Switzerland, and Italy).

1. Scotland at 68% L2
2. Ireland at 67% L2
3. England SE at 66% L2
4. France NW at 63% L2
5. England Mid at 61% L2
6. France SW at 61% L2
7. Italy North at 54% L2
8. Poland at 54% L2
9. Ireland North at 50% L2
10. Switzerland at 49% L2
11. Germany SW (Mannheim) at 47% L2
12. Sweden/Norway at 45% L2
13. Italy at 24% L2

This may in part be due to the L2 subclade, Z49 and it's subclade Z142 (Z142 is ~85% UK and French in the U152 FTNDA project).

Cascio
02-06-2014, 09:30 AM
- - - Updated - - -


On the origin of Z36

Before being involved in analysing downstream Z36 SNPs on basis of Y chromosome DNA sequencing, I am trying to understand the role of SNP Z36 in the "U152 landscape". I made a map on the distribution of U152 and its primary SNPs in Europe using the FT DNA database. Further, I also determined the TMRCAs of the major SNPs using the variance spread sheet as published by Tim Janzen. You can find the summarizing results as a pdf file here: U152 and subclades distribution in Europe (http://www.recourt.eu/U152_GEO.pdf)

Although this is not an academic study, my conclusion is that the primary downstream SNPs of U152 (L2, Z36, Z56, ..) already were homogenously distributed throughout the U152 'homeland' population, prior to major migrations have occurred.

So, indeed downstream Z36 SNPs may reveal more in detail on how we have migrated through Europe ...

Belgae, are you saying that it is fruitless associating Z36 or any other downstream SNPs with specific tribes or regions?

R.Rocca
02-06-2014, 02:18 PM
Per Kees Recourt's table:

If you only look at sample populations > 10 for total U152 (an attempt to remove small sample errors), It appears L2 generally increases in percentage as one moves northwest of the core U152 areas (S. Germany, Switzerland, and Italy).

1. Scotland at 68% L2
2. Ireland at 67% L2
3. England SE at 66% L2
4. France NW at 63% L2
5. England Mid at 61% L2
6. France SW at 61% L2
7. Italy North at 54% L2
8. Poland at 54% L2
9. Ireland North at 50% L2
10. Switzerland at 49% L2
11. Germany SW (Mannheim) at 47% L2
12. Sweden/Norway at 45% L2
13. Italy at 24% L2

This may in part be due to the L2 subclade, Z49 and it's subclade Z142 (Z142 is ~85% UK and French in the U152 FTNDA project).

You can throw in Z367 and possibly to a lesser extent DF103 in there as well. Of course for DF103 we will need a lot more testing.

But to everyone's point, yes, it does look like Z36 is very Alpine.

Belgae
02-06-2014, 11:31 PM
- - - Updated - - -
Belgae, are you saying that it is fruitless associating Z36 or any other downstream SNPs with specific tribes or regions?

Good question Cascio. I wil try to answer it. Based on the Janzen variance method to calculate TMRCA, but also on the previous Fluxus calculations, Z36 is a DNA point mutation which occurred about 1500-2000 BC at a sole male individual. This is before any Celtic tribes were present I presume, so indeed, Z36 would be homogenously distributed throughout the population prior any major migrations have occurred.

But, may we discover relevant DNA point mutations (SNPs), which can act as a marker or tracer to identify specific tribes? According to this Nature paper of 2011 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v467/n7319/full/nature09534.html) (1000 Genomes sequencing consortium), the human SNP frequency is about 10(-8) per DNA base pair (bp) per generation. In other words, approximately 1 novel SNP per 100 million DNA bp per generation. So for each 20-25 million bp of DNA (the amount Full Genome Corporation sequences), one novel SNP represents about 4 -5 generations assuming a random distribution over the Y chromosome. For the FamilyTree DNA "Big Y", about 10 million bp are sequenced, so this means each novel SNP represents 10 generations, on average.

My knowledge on (Celtic) anthropology is too limited to go into detail on the tribe developments. But in general terms, a specific Y chromosomal point mutation of an (important) male tribe member and his offspring may have spread sufficiently through the population, fast enough to serve as a "tribe (regional)-specific SNP", still retrievable nowadays. The more Y DNA is sequenced at sufficient Z36 members, the higher chance that such a potential DNA marker will be identified.

Cascio
02-07-2014, 08:45 AM
Good question Cascio. I wil try to answer it. Based on the Janzen variance method to calculate TMRCA, but also on the previous Fluxus calculations, Z36 is a DNA point mutation which occurred about 1500-2000 BC at a sole male individual. This is before any Celtic tribes were present I presume, so indeed, Z36 would be homogenously distributed throughout the population prior any major migrations have occurred.

But, may we discover relevant DNA point mutations (SNPs), which can act as a marker or tracer to identify specific tribes? According to a recent Nature paper (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v467/n7319/full/nature09534.html), the SNP frequency is about 10(-8) per DNA base pair (bp) each generation. So for each 20-25 Million bp of DNA (the amount Full Genome Corporation sequences), one novel SNP represents about 4 generations. For the FamilyTree DNA "Big Y", about 10 million bp are sequenced, so this means each novel SNP represents about 8-10 generations.

My knowledge on (Celtic) anthropology is too limited to go into detail on the tribe developments. But in general terms, a specific Y chromosomal point mutation of an (important) male tribe member and his offspring may have spread sufficiently through the population, fast enough to serve as a "tribe (regional)-specific SNP", still retrievable nowadays. The more Y DNA is sequenced at sufficient Z36 members, the higher chance that such a potential DNA marker will be identified.

Thanks, Kees

palamede
02-07-2014, 12:50 PM
So for each 20-25 million bp of DNA (the amount Full Genome Corporation sequences), one novel SNP represents about 4 -5 generations assuming a random distribution over the Y chromosome.

I guess FGC analyses about 24Mbp, but successfully, it sequences 12M to 16M bp (average around 14Mbp), this gives one novel SNP about 6-8 generations for 10(-8) per DNA base pair (bp) per generation, but the value 10(-8) per DNA base pair (bp) per generation is still discussed.
The range goes from 0.4 10(-9) per bp per year to 0.9 10(-9) per bp per year (more probably the range 0.50-0.70), therefore from 10(-8) per bp per gen to 2.5 10(-8) per bp per gen.

Belgae
02-08-2014, 12:30 AM
Very interesting Kees! Great job.

My first thoughts:
...I was surprised at the lack of Z36 in the lower Rhone (SE France)
...I wasn't surprised to see that the pie charts for Switzerland and Mannheim area (Palatinate) were almost identical. I believe that many of the men representing the Mannheim area are descended from early 18thC US immigrants who were 1 generation removed from Switzerland.
...Z36 looks very Alpine.


Hi Jim,

Thanks for your feedback and hereby my response on Z36. Whether Z36 is Alpine (as also suggested by Rich), I am not convinced yet. Still keeping in mind that the Dys 391/437 values almost completely divide in four separate groups which follow the Fluxus analysis, suggesting an origin in Germany. It struck me that the relative distribution in Germany and Switserland is quite similar, but I was interpreting this in a reverse movement, from Germany to Switserland :) But I can follow your arguments also, and when I perform a simple exact homology check for 12 STRs at the FT DNA page, my highest values are in Switserland. I hope there will be sufficient additional FGS and/or FT-DNA BigY DNA data of Z36 members. This will allow us to discover relevant downstream Z36 SNPs, which may bring us closer to the origin and distribution.
Regards, Kees

R.Rocca
02-08-2014, 04:15 PM
Hi Jim,

Thanks for your feedback and hereby my response on Z36. Whether Z36 is Alpine (as also suggested by Rich), I am not convinced yet. Still keeping in mind that the Dys 391/437 values almost completely divide in four separate groups which follow the Fluxus analysis, suggesting an origin in Germany. It struck me that the relative distribution in Germany and Switserland is quite similar, but I was interpreting this in a reverse movement, from Germany to Switserland :) But I can follow your arguments also, and when I perform a simple exact homology check for 12 STRs at the FT DNA page, my highest values are in Switserland. I hope there will be sufficient additional FGS and/or FT-DNA BigY DNA data of Z36 members. This will allow us to discover relevant downstream Z36 SNPs, which may bring us closer to the origin and distribution.
Regards, Kees

By the way, I meant Z36 is very "Alpine" in its distribution. Where it originated is a completely different story. :D

Belgae
02-19-2014, 10:35 PM
Just an interlude before additional sequencing data of Z36 members will become available: Jim (Emmental) and also Richard have compared both our downstream Z36 mutations which are 112 in total. Interestingly, both Jim and myself do not share any downstream SNPs! This suggests that within 3-5 generations after Z36 was incorporated into the Y chromosome, our parental lines separated. The figure below displays the physical distribution of these mutations across the Y chromosome (click to enlarge).

1444

Very curious to learn on additional Full Y- or Big Y Z36 sequencing data, revealing novel downstream relationships...

Il Papà
02-19-2014, 11:49 PM
Just an interlude before additional sequencing data of Z36 members will become available: Jim (Emmental) and also Richard have compared both our downstream Z36 mutations which are 112 in total. Interestingly, both Jim and myself do not share any downstream SNPs! This suggests that within 3-5 generations after Z36 was incorporated into the Y chromosome, our parental lines were separated. The figure below displays the physical distribution of these mutations across the Y chromosome (click to enlarge).

1444

Very curious to learn on additional Full Y- or Big Y Z36 sequencing data, revealing novel downstream relationships...

So that mean that there is a mutation on the Y-chromosome every 3-5 generation ? Which is weird because if we take the example of 25 years per generation and a mutation every 4 generation that would mean that Z36 coalescence time is 11 200 years ago .

Solothurn
02-20-2014, 08:58 AM
Thomas of Yseq said he would offer the Z36 SNP if the interest were there!

This would be great for 23andMe U152*s to possibly join the Z36 club :)

R.Rocca
02-20-2014, 01:20 PM
Another Z36+ from NW Italy joined the U152 project today...kit no. N118376 from Rossiglione, Liguria.

Belgae
02-20-2014, 05:52 PM
So that mean that there is a mutation on the Y-chromosome every 3-5 generation ? Which is weird because if we take the example of 25 years per generation and a mutation every 4 generation that would mean that Z36 coalescence time is 11 200 years ago .

I will repeat the math again, since it took me also quite a while to get a grip on it :) The published point mutation frequency at the human genome is about 1.10(-8) Mbp per generation (see previous posts in this thread). This frequency has been stretched by Palamede to 2.5 10(-8). So, every generation a novel point mutation may occur each 40 - 100 million base pairs. Since Full Genome Corporation has sequenced about 17,5 to 20 million bp each Z26 member (n=2), one novel point mutation (potential SNP) in the sequenced FGC Y area corresponds with about (2)3 - 5 generations.
To my opinion, we may also reverse the calculations. Both Fluxus analysis and STR variance calculations suggest that SNP Z36 is about 4000 years old. Assuming each Z36 member has about 55 specific mutations downstream of Z36, one (private) SNP corresponds with about 75 years. This may be three generations of 25 years each.

Belgae
02-26-2014, 05:12 PM
Please find enclosed an updated Fluxus analysis of our (FT DNA) haplogroup using 19 STR markers, weighted according to their mutation rates. Novel Z36 downstream SNPs (Big - & Full Y results) may validate the suggested family relationships.

1505

R.Rocca
02-26-2014, 06:07 PM
Please find enclosed an updated Fluxus analysis of our (FT DNA) haplogroup using 19 STR markers, weighted according to their mutation rates. Novel Z36 downstream SNPs (Big - & Full Y results) may validate the suggested family relationships.

1505

Great graph Kees. From a human analytic perspective (eye-balling it), it looks to me like...

British Isles - one cluster on the left side of the diagram, the rest mostly scattered
Germany - scattered all over
Switzerland - somewhat scattered, but relegated to the left hand side of the diagram only
Italy - scattered all over
Spain - small cluster
France/Belgium - scattered all over
Scandinavia - too few to make anything of it
Eastern Europe - small cluster
USA - looks like it mimics the Switzerland distribution somewhat

The tighter geographical clusters are the ones that likely represent the best ones to share unknown SNPs.

Belgae
02-26-2014, 10:17 PM
Thanks for the compliment Rich and you are right, quite a scattered graph with respect to geographical locations. However, I would not be surprised should Konther (E10249), Strang (5825) and Monnier (199556) share a number of downstream SNPs. According to Fluxus, they all are members of the upper middle-right branch, and all three have ordered a Big Y. So, we will soon see whether their relative close Fluxus relationships can be validated.

CelticGerman
03-01-2014, 09:45 AM
Thanks for the compliment Rich and you are right, quite a scattered graph with respect to geographical locations. However, I would not be surprised should Konther (E10249), Strang (5825) and Monnier (199556) share a number of downstream SNPs. According to Fluxus, they all are members of the upper middle-right branch, and all three have ordered a Big Y. So, we will soon see whether their relative close Fluxus relationships can be validated.

Great Belga! Obviously, you are still in an "Italian environment". For me it seems more French/Belgian (with Brits - must be a Belga-thing .....), maybe Italy before. I will have one more month of waiting time. Right, Monnier (results in one month as well), Strang and Konther are "close". Heeb is there as well more distant and than there is a crossing point Musselman, Molestad and you are connected to. Hopefully all results together will give us new information .....

emmental
03-02-2014, 04:46 AM
Good news!! The FGC website now has the updated haplogroup and variant compare files ready for download. (The sharing links work also)

It looks like I have 5 new novel SNPs - FGC8068 thru 8072. Four of these I share with the anonymous Utah resident from 1K Genomes (NA12144). My total number of novel SNPs with high reliability is now 57, 29 of which I share with NA12144.

My SNPs are now FGC6410 thru 6461 and 8068 thru 8072.

Kees, it looks like you have 1 new novel SNP - FGC8073, for a new total of 62 highly reliable. We still have no matches between the two of us below Z36.

emmental
03-11-2014, 01:56 PM
Kees and/or Rich:

I noticed we've had some new Z36 members added to the U152 project who have not done STR testing - Gatt (283310), Milkovits (N18803) and Martini (N118376). Did they come in through Geno 2.0 or Big Y? It would be great if we had some Big Y results which we didn't know about previously.

R.Rocca
03-11-2014, 02:07 PM
Kees and/or Rich:

I noticed we've had some new Z36 members added to the U152 project who have not done STR testing - Gatt (283310), Milkovits (N18803) and Martini (N118376). Did they come in through Geno 2.0 or Big Y? It would be great if we had some Big Y results which we didn't know about previously.

These came through Geno 2.0. That I know of, I don't think Big-Y is available to those that have not tested for at least one product via FTDNA.

randwulf
03-19-2014, 02:31 AM
Hey

I noticed my ancestor/location showing up on some of your maps, so registered for the site. Nothing new to add for now, just saying "hello".

emmental
03-26-2014, 12:33 AM
Konther's Big Y results are in. Did any other Z36 get their results also?

emmental
04-02-2014, 10:53 PM
Did Mollestad's (198590) Big Y results come in today?

R.Rocca
04-04-2014, 11:55 PM
Good news for the Z36 crowd...based on several Big-Y results, two levels have been found between Z36 and CTS188/CTS4333/CTS7958:

Derived in E10249, 198590, HG01060 (1KG) and an anonymous UK sample:
13672823(C/T), 19311810(C/G), 22513335(T/C), 22920241(G/A)

Derived in E10249, 198590, and HG01060 (1KG)
17178479(G/T), 21569454(G/T), 24382845(G/A)

Derived in E10249 and 1KG-HG01060
CTS188, CTS4333, CTS7958

emmental
04-05-2014, 02:38 AM
Good news for the Z36 crowd...based on several Big-Y results, two levels have been found between Z36 and CTS188/CTS4333/CTS7958:

Derived in E10249, 198590, HG01060 (1KG) and an anonymous UK sample:
13672823(C/T), 19311810(C/G), 22513335(T/C), 22920241(G/A)

Derived in E10249, 198590, and HG01060 (1KG)
17178479(G/T), 21569454(G/T), 24382845(G/A)

Derived in E10249 and 1KG-HG01060
CTS188, CTS4333, CTS7958

Thanks Rich,

I checked those seven Novel SNPs with Kees' and my variant compare files from FGC and find no ** or *** matches. It looks like three separate branches just below Z36 have come out of the NGS so far.

CelticGerman
04-05-2014, 05:35 AM
Thanks Rich,

I checked those seven Novel SNPs with Kees' and my variant compare files from FGC and find no ** or *** matches. It looks like three separate branches just below Z36 have come out of the NGS so far.

Great. E10249 (me) is from Thuringia and maybe Luxembourg/Alsace before; 198590 is from Norway; HGO1060 from Puerto Rico; and at the first level below Z36 there is an anonymous Brit. A little bit confusing. Waiting for additional results ...... If the Fluxus analysis from Kees (March 2014) is right, logically Monnier, Stang and Heeb should show the two new levels below Z36 as well, for the connection with 198590 (Mollestad) is before ... Let's wait and see. Any idea for the time frames for CTS188 etc.?

Just found this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_immigration_to_Puerto_Rico. Surname Conter exists in Puerto Rico. Konther in Germany is probably derived from Conter (spelling in Luxembourg/Arlon-Belgium/Moselle-France above all).

emmental
04-10-2014, 01:21 PM
CelticGerman posted in another thread that the results for kit 199556 (French/Swiss border) have come in and he is between Z36 and CTS188, as is 198590 (Norway). Does anyone know if the results for N21533 and 5825 are also in? I'm very interested in the N21533 results because, of the group with NGS, he has the closest GD to me and he is my last good chance for a match with someone who's still in the pipeline.

Belgae
04-12-2014, 04:36 PM
Great work of Richard on Z36 downstream SNPs! I copied the Z36 part of his most recent U152 tree (see his posting (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2375-Updated-U152-Tree/page5))

1712

The correlations between my previous STR-based high resolution Fluxus analysis (http://www.anthrogenica.com/album.php?albumid=22&attachmentid=1534)and the dendrogram of Pierre-Jacques Beaugrand appear (very) limited.

1715

Compare for instance the positions of N21533 (Heeb) and 199556 (Monnier). Since for in common Z36 downstream point mutations, we are more certain on joined Y-DNA relationships as compared to STRs, the Z36 downstream SNP tree will be the one to follow...

emmental
04-14-2014, 01:51 PM
Observations and thoughts:

The Big Y results have really helped to define "Group B." Four of five participants helped to define that branch.

Everyone in "Group B" so far is DYS437=14 and H4=11, but none had matches to my FGC results, and I am also 14/11. I know it is possible, but is there a good chance that Big Y had no coverage of one or several of my novel SNPs that may fall between Z36 and 13672823 (C/T), et al? Would there be a file that could help answer this?

Will more people be testing?

Kråke
04-25-2014, 03:10 PM
As a novis, I have question. They have a new haplotree at FTDNA and in this they suggest me to test P61, CTS5531, Z191, CTS7983, CTS8516, CTS2687, CTS7618. Is this a result of BIG Y? Shall I test this SNP or should I do something else.

emmental
04-25-2014, 04:11 PM
As a novis, I have question. They have a new haplotree at FTDNA and in this they suggest me to test P61, CTS5531, Z191, CTS7983, CTS8516, CTS2687, CTS7618. Is this a result of BIG Y? Shall I test this SNP or should I do something else.

I don't think I'd order anything yet. That tree seems to be generated by Geno 2.0, not Big Y. The Z36 portion looks a little suspect to me. I'd advise to let the dust settle a bit and get a better perspective before ordering.

R.Rocca
06-09-2014, 08:23 PM
This is for anyone who is U152+Z36+ and would like to get Big-Y tested. FTDNA is reducing their price by $100 and we have an unused couon for another $100 that would bring the cost down to $495 (instead of $695).

randwulf
06-17-2014, 01:27 AM
I am Z36+ and have some extra pennies saved if this coupon still is an option, though I believe the sale ends tomorrow. Please let me know.

emmental
06-17-2014, 01:42 AM
I am Z36+ and have some extra pennies saved if this coupon still is an option, though I believe the sale ends tomorrow. Please let me know.

I have a $50 coupon for Big Y from last year (the WTY participants each got one). I don't know if they are still accepting these, but if they are, you are welcome to it. I'll check tomorrow morning if you are interested.

randwulf
06-17-2014, 01:47 AM
I can give it a try.

R.Rocca
06-17-2014, 07:08 PM
Was anyone able to send randwulf a $100 coupon???

Sinclar
06-17-2014, 08:18 PM
I've misplaced my $100 off the Big Y voucher in my emails but have emailed FTDNA to get them to resend.

randwulf
06-17-2014, 08:47 PM
OK, Big Y ordered!

randwulf
06-17-2014, 09:00 PM
It is OK, I ordered with just the sale price, too late for the extra coupon.

kedierluc
07-01-2014, 12:17 AM
A newbie question/query.

After doing the Geno 2.0 from National Geographic, and passing this info into FTDNA, I'm told I'm a Z36 but nothing more. The question is what test(s) should I do to further investigate what is there beyond the Z36 level?
My query is due to the following: There are no known ancestry from my paternal lineage that remotes it back to the part of Europe where the Z36s are "believed" to have come from (Switzerland, France, nothern Italy). My paternal background is from Cost Rica, via Andalucia, where the Z36 is extremely uncommon.

Would the BigY help here?

emmental
07-01-2014, 02:20 AM
A newbie question/query.

After doing the Geno 2.0 from National Geographic, and passing this info into FTDNA, I'm told I'm a Z36 but nothing more. The question is what test(s) should I do to further investigate what is there beyond the Z36 level?
My query is due to the following: There are no known ancestry from my paternal lineage that remotes it back to the part of Europe where the Z36s are "believed" to have come from (Switzerland, France, nothern Italy). My paternal background is from Cost Rica, via Andalucia, where the Z36 is extremely uncommon.

Would the BigY help here?

Welcome kedierluc!!

Big Y could help. In fact it would be great to have Z36 from another region test. There is Iberian Z36. One sample from 1KG (Puerto Rican descent) tested positive in the 13672823 C/T group. This group looks like it could end up being large.

You'll never know until you test.

R.Rocca
07-01-2014, 02:29 AM
A newbie question/query.

After doing the Geno 2.0 from National Geographic, and passing this info into FTDNA, I'm told I'm a Z36 but nothing more. The question is what test(s) should I do to further investigate what is there beyond the Z36 level?
My query is due to the following: There are no known ancestry from my paternal lineage that remotes it back to the part of Europe where the Z36s are "believed" to have come from (Switzerland, France, nothern Italy). My paternal background is from Cost Rica, via Andalucia, where the Z36 is extremely uncommon.

Would the BigY help here?

Welcome kedierluc. I agree with what emmental said. Also, if you haven't done so already, please transfer your results to the FamilyTreeDNA U152 project if you have and FTDNA account.

kedierluc
07-02-2014, 06:17 PM
Welcome kedierluc!!

Big Y could help. In fact it would be great to have Z36 from another region test. There is Iberian Z36. One sample from 1KG (Puerto Rican descent) tested positive in the 13672823 C/T group. This group looks like it could end up being large.

You'll never know until you test.

Thanks for the welcoming.

Interesting. As far as I've found on my quick research, there are not many Z36 (or U152 for that matter) on Spain, and even less in Andalucia. Also, the 1KG (Puerto Rican) seemed to know that he was a descendant from a german immigrant, which is not my case (I can trace to the middle 1800s and still be in Costa Rica and spanish).

I'll go for the BigY next time that FTDNA has a special :-) (I missed the recent discount offer).

kedierluc
07-02-2014, 06:18 PM
Welcome kedierluc. I agree with what emmental said. Also, if you haven't done so already, please transfer your results to the FamilyTreeDNA U152 project if you have and FTDNA account.

Thanks for the welcome. I did register my results on FTDNA U152 project. I'm N117719.

emmental
07-05-2014, 02:57 PM
A member of the Z36 Bernese cluster (a Binkley) just received some results from YSEQ. They are all shared with NA12144 and me.

FGC6420/Y3599 15182462 G+
FGC6421/Y3578 15595427 C+
FGC6423/Y3580 15984898 G+
FGC6424/Y3581 16244565 G+
FGC6430/Y3592 21111844 T+
FGC6434/Y3609 23471860 A+

Progress!! :beerchug:

CelticGerman
07-06-2014, 09:50 AM
0.7% of participants in Genographic Project are Z36 (the graphics are wrong however2046)

emmental
07-12-2014, 12:57 AM
[QUOTE=emmental;44571]A member of the Z36 Bernese cluster (a Binkley) just received some results from YSEQ. They are all shared with NA12144 and me.

FGC6420/Y3599 15182462 G+
FGC6421/Y3578 15595427 C+
FGC6423/Y3580 15984898 G+
FGC6424/Y3581 16244565 G+
FGC6430/Y3592 21111844 T+
FGC6434/Y3609 23471860 A+

My results are back for the above tests at YSEQ and are also positive - as expected. I just wanted them confirmed with Sanger sequencing.

R.Rocca
07-12-2014, 02:22 AM
[QUOTE=emmental;44571]A member of the Z36 Bernese cluster (a Binkley) just received some results from YSEQ. They are all shared with NA12144 and me.

FGC6420/Y3599 15182462 G+
FGC6421/Y3578 15595427 C+
FGC6423/Y3580 15984898 G+
FGC6424/Y3581 16244565 G+
FGC6430/Y3592 21111844 T+
FGC6434/Y3609 23471860 A+

My results are back for the above tests at YSEQ and are also positive - as expected. I just wanted them confirmed with Sanger sequencing.

Thanks. Can you tell me what the turn-around time was from ordering the kit to getting the results back?

emmental
07-12-2014, 02:51 AM
[QUOTE=emmental;45216]

Thanks. Can you tell me what the turn-around time was from ordering the kit to getting the results back?

Mine - from kit received by YSEQ to results posted - 18 days. Binkley - 13 days. Mailing time - 3 or 4 days each way.

Belgae
07-17-2014, 10:15 AM
Developing Y sequencing data-based R-Z36 tree

As advised by Jim, I became a member of the Y Full community (http://www.yfull.com), allowing these guys to analyse my FGC .Bam file. Results are presented nicely also rendering detailed insight in my mtDNA, which I was not aware of yet. There are also specific groups including for U152, from which I am a member now.

Interestingly, an experimental R-Z36 tree is developing http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z36/. As already stated by others including Richard, we are moving from STR based trees/groups to SNP/Y sequencing data based trees. You may also review the detailed data collected by the the FT DNA U152 admins on Z36 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgHBsIq9ZUahdFJ4MUdicTVKUmJvSmFsVTFOa2RPX 3c&usp=drive_web#gid=0). I find it difficult to get grip on all novel data coming out very recently, but this will hopefully grow/be validated/ be standardized in the near future :)

In the current experimental R-Z36 tree there are quite some Toscani members (TSI), while Jim (Emmental) is YF01575 and I am YF01743 in the Z36* branch.

emmental
07-23-2014, 11:14 AM
OK, Big Y ordered!

Any news yet? What is your expected results date?

randwulf
07-23-2014, 09:13 PM
The FTDNA site says "3-5 weeks" which just changed from "4-6 weeks". Ugh....

R.Rocca
08-20-2014, 11:51 AM
Kits no.206788 (Erskine) and no.5825 (Strang) now form their own branch below Z36 and pushes down both S8010 and S8005. I'll post a new version of the tree later today.

emmental
08-24-2014, 06:21 PM
As more NGS results come in for Z36 I can see the subclades break down (somewhat) regionally. The most widespread (and perhaps time will show, the largest) subclade to emerge so far is the 13672823/19311810/22513335/22920241 group which includes Puerto Rico, France, Germany and Scandinavia. The CTS5531 group appears to be a large chunk of Z36 in Tuscany, but also shows up in Malta and France. The FGC6411 et al group (Bernese Cluster) appears to be limited to the Canton of Bern. And the newly discovered 7268704/9171926/9496327/17342223 group appears to be Scottish.

I am most familiar with the “Bernese Cluster” and, if the Krayenbuhl/Graybill, Kauffman, Zenger/Singer, and Trosch families are a part of this cluster, as I suspect, it would seem that the Spiez/Wimmis area of the Bernese Oberland was a pre-Roman destination point for this cluster. There doesn’t seem to be much migration in this cluster until the 17th C when some members moved to the Palatinate after the Thirty-Years War.

The big question is “what is the point of origin for Z36?” My top two guesses would be the Jura if the migrations were primarily by land, or the Ligurian Sea coast if the migrations were by both land and sea.

This post is primarily a conversation starter – so please take part.

BTW: when Randwulf’s results come in, I predict he will be in the 13672823/19311810/22513335/22920241 subclade. Any news yet as to when that will be?

emmental
08-25-2014, 12:20 AM
Z36 seems to be concentrated more to the west than other U152 subclades. The recent studies in Italy show this and looking at our U152 project, north of the Alps it doesn't seem to have spread too far east of the Rhine in any great numbers.

Agamemnon
08-25-2014, 01:37 AM
The big question is “what is the point of origin for Z36?” My top two guesses would be the Jura if the migrations were primarily by land, or the Ligurian Sea coast if the migrations were by both land and sea.

How old is Z36? Also, if the Jura is Z36's point of origin, what are we to make of Z49?

emmental
08-25-2014, 02:30 AM
How old is Z36? Also, if the Jura is Z36's point of origin, what are we to make of Z49?

I would say the safest estimate of the age of Z36 is 3900 ybp +/- 700 y. This is the range of estimates I've seen so far. SNP counting with NGS may shed some more light on this. The SNP counting estimates seem to point towards the older end of this range and the STR estimates towards the younger. I'm guessing that Z36's more western center of gravity than other U152 might be an indication of an younger age if, indeed the main beginning point of the spread (not necessarily the origin) is the Jura.

I'm not sure why you are asking about Z49. Z49 is under L2 and doesn't seem to be well represented in the region around the Jura.

And thank you for being a part of this discussion. It's hard to get people to comment on this subclade.

Agamemnon
08-25-2014, 11:45 AM
I would say the safest estimate of the age of Z36 is 3900 ybp +/- 700 y. This is the range of estimates I've seen so far. SNP counting with NGS may shed some more light on this. The SNP counting estimates seem to point towards the older end of this range and the STR estimates towards the younger. I'm guessing that Z36's more western center of gravity than other U152 might be an indication of an younger age if, indeed the main beginning point of the spread (not necessarily the origin) is the Jura.

I'm not sure why you are asking about Z49. Z49 is under L2 and doesn't seem to be well represented in the region around the Jura.

And thank you for being a part of this discussion. It's hard to get people to comment on this subclade.

Fascinating, so its time span covers Urnfield on the older end and Hallstatt on the younger.
A model implying Z36's diffusion from the Jura actually makes great sense given this age estimate.

I grew up around the Jura (near Besançon), beautiful place... And my maternal grandfather probably was Z49, a pity it seems he wasn't Z36 lol (well, I'll have to transfer his paternal relatives' results to FTDNA just to make sure).

I've always found U152 fascinating, even prior to my discovery that my grandfather was U152 I was obsessed with this haplogroup's history.

R.Rocca
08-25-2014, 01:29 PM
I think that Z36's lack of STR modal values distinct from U152, L2, DF27, L21, etc. pushes its inception point much further into the past - at least the Bell Beaker period. The Rhone-Rhine Group of Bell Beaker is a good inception point candidate for Z36, with subsequent cultures expanding it further. Here is a paper on the Rhone-Rhine group with a focus on the Jura area (see page 486)...

http://archive-ouverte.unige.ch/unige:14235/ATTACHMENT01

While the Urnfield Culture could have expanded Z36 further, it does not fit all that well with what we know of the Urnfield influences in NW Italy. NW Italy's Urnfield incluence came by way of the RSFO Group (Rhin-Suisse-France Orientale), and RSFO pushed deep into Central France, where Z36 seems to be absent.

emmental
08-27-2014, 01:28 PM
Concerning the age of Z36:

I did an SNP count for my personal results. I have 56 SNPs under Z36 in my FGC Elite test.

I compared these positions to other results in the U152 group at YFull and found that 38 of them are in the coverage of the Big Y. Eighteen of the positions had "no reads" for those who did the Big Y.

The U106 group had done a study and found that 137 years per SNP is the norm for Big Y coverage.

For FGC, 90 years per SNP seems to be floating around the internet.

So I multiplied 56 * 90 and got 5040 ybp. I multiplied 38 * 137 and got 5206 ybp.

Averaging these and subtracting from my birth year I get ... 3167 BC for the birth of Z36. (5123 ybp)

What are others coming up with?

emmental
08-28-2014, 04:43 PM
I'm leaving for Switzerland - land of my forefathers. Be back Sep 6.

Belgae
08-28-2014, 11:18 PM
I'm leaving for Switzerland - land of my forefathers. Be back Sep 6.

Enjoy your holliday Jim!

Agamemnon
08-29-2014, 12:11 AM
I'm leaving for Switzerland - land of my forefathers. Be back Sep 6.

Bon voyage ;)

emmental
09-07-2014, 10:38 AM
The FTDNA site says "3-5 weeks" which just changed from "4-6 weeks". Ugh....

I'm back. Had a great trip. Randwulf, I thought your results would be in by this time. Any more news?

randwulf
09-08-2014, 12:45 AM
No news, yet, on the big Y test. We have Swiss visitors with us this week. We are making plans to visit Switzerland next year (it will be our second trip).

Kråke
10-15-2014, 06:27 PM
Any Z36 news? I am interested but not so much for doing a Big YDNA yet. Any SNP to test?

emmental
10-30-2014, 03:08 AM
No news, yet, on the big Y test. We have Swiss visitors with us this week. We are making plans to visit Switzerland next year (it will be our second trip).

It's been 4 1/2 months since you ordered Randwulf. Any news?

randwulf
10-31-2014, 02:26 AM
Nope! Still showing 1-2 weeks for a couple of months now. I wrote a letter and got a reply assuring me they were working on it.

randwulf
11-20-2014, 01:01 AM
Nope! Still showing 1-2 weeks for a couple of months now. I wrote a letter and got a reply assuring me they were working on it.

But, I have no idea what it all means.

emmental
11-20-2014, 01:24 AM
Great news. Please post after you figure some things out. I'm sure Rich will help.

randwulf
11-20-2014, 02:18 AM
Great news. Please post after you figure some things out. I'm sure Rich will help.

Well, I tried looking up the various below-Z36 SNPs and variants in the U152 project site at FTDNA. I don't show as derived for any of those SNPs or having any of the matching novel variants. Even more strangely, I am not showing as derived for Z36 SNP, but rather a "?" with Unknown confidence. I am not sure what all that means. Shouldn't I show derived for Z36 if my haplotype is confirmed Z36? I don't get it.

On further review....I see CelticGerman had the same thing happen for his Z36 SNP. I am showing derived at U152 at the very least.

Here are the novel variants:

4929623 G T High
6719306 C T High
6952519 C T High
6957053 C T High
7109640 C T High
7321330 A C High
7568901 C G High
7751268 T C High
8189527 C G High
8805525 A G High
8864175 A G High
9227801 A T High
9239350 T C High
9296025 G A High
9316833 A G High
9374685 G C High
9992071 A C High
9992837 G A High
13142597 G T High
13271933 T A High
13632462 C A High
13687378 A T High
14071348 A T High
14207596 A T High
14313109 G T High
14367269 C A High
14369329 T A High
14398980 A G High
14399063 A G High
14399074 A G High
14399077 G A High
14399105 G A High
14409129 G T High
14630334 T C High
14630342 T C High
14630357 T C High
14644698 C T High
14644742 C T High
14709276 A T High
14709277 C G High
15532109 T C High
16188681 T A High
16633809 C T High
16682032 T G High
17211873 G A High
17325655 C G High
17610260 C T High
18550112 A T High
18641344 T A High
19118698 G T High
19221084 G T High
19543758 C T High
19842035 G T High
21556310 G A High
21573752 C G High
21735186 G A High
21868300 T A High
21952388 T C High
21971236 T C High
22229722 T A High
22229913 C G High
22233732 C G High
22235226 C T High
22246045 C G High
22246199 G A High
22251944 G A High
22259729 T C High
22262889 A T High
22269664 C G High
22269796 T A High
22271889 G C High
22293981 C G High
22302537 C T High
22318641 A C High
22318642 G A High
22318643 A C High
22318978 T C High
22319065 T C Medium
22319066 A T Medium
22319170 A T High
22319171 G T High
22319362 A T High
22319363 T A High
22346168 A T High
22422202 T C High
22432368 G C High
22436085 T G High
22436108 G C High
22436300 A C High
22444659 A T High
22463033 C A High
22791277 G A High
23187036 C T High
23354909 A C High
23813856 A G High
23834410 C T High
23984958 C T High
24423076 G A High
24447989 A C High
24453842 G T High
26123300 C T High
28787127 G A High
28787141 C G High
28788643 G T High
28788695 T A High

emmental
11-20-2014, 04:12 AM
Well, nothing matched my variants. I will look more closely later and do some comparisons with the YFull U152 group.

R.Rocca
11-21-2014, 04:07 AM
But, I have no idea what it all means.

@randwulf, congratulations, you are FGC6511+ like Kees who is also Z36+ and posts on this forum.

emmental
11-21-2014, 04:30 AM
Congrats to both of you :beerchug:

randwulf
11-21-2014, 12:24 PM
@randwulf, congratulations, you are FGC6511+ like Kees who is also Z36+ and posts on this forum.

Thanks, Richard, for sorting this out.

Belgae
11-21-2014, 04:27 PM
Indeed Richard, thanks. So, this means I also lost my Z36* (hurray) and retrieved a distant cousin Randwulf :). Whether our ancestors were Celtic or Roman needs to be sorted out yet. No idea yet how old our common SNP 6511 is* , but we now share a common group (http://www.r1b.org/imgs/FTDNA_U152_Project_Tree.png).

* addition: our fast-mutating (about once every 28,3 generations) CDY a-b STR markers are similar: 38-40. This combination is unique within the Z36 haplogroup.

randwulf
11-21-2014, 10:25 PM
Indeed Richard, thanks. So, this means I also lost my Z36* (hurray) and retrieved a distant cousin Randwulf :). Whether our ancestors were Celtic or Roman needs to be sorted out yet. No idea yet how old our common SNP 6511 is* , but we now share a common group (http://www.r1b.org/imgs/FTDNA_U152_Project_Tree.png).

* addition: our fast-mutating (about once every 28,3 generations) CDY a-b STR markers are similar: 38-40. This combination is unique within the Z36 haplogroup.


I am happy to help remove your "*". I had noticed that your STR values in general looked closer to mine than the those in the other identified categories under Z36 on the U152 project before Richard's announcement, including that 38-40 setting. I have a couple of STR values that seem to be outliers in the grouping, such as the YCAII 17-24 values, but I am not sure what that means.

As far as recent genealogy background - I have a pretty strong paper trail to Schweinheim-Aschaffenburg in Germany. A few years ago, we visited on vacation and my last name (not a rare one, but not that common either) is pretty common there. We saw it on businesses, pictures at the historical society, the cemetery, a monument in town, etc. The church records seem to end back in the late 1600's, so that is about as far as that can go. It seems like the family has been there a long time. I have just four 25/25 matches for STRs in FTDNA, but it looks like none of them have done more advanced testing. A couple of the names are obviously Swiss/German, but I really don't even know if they are Z36+.

emmental
11-22-2014, 02:27 AM
randwulf,
I was able to go through your BigY list of "novel" variants. The one's with notations after them are matches to me (except FGC6511 which is your match to Kees). If they are assigned a number, they are known SNPs which can be found on YBrowse and are above Z36 on the phylogenetic tree. If they are marked with asterisks, they are considered unreliable and cannot be placed on the tree. This should help to weed out a good part of your list.

4929623 G T High
6719306 C T High
6952519 C T High
6957053 C T High
7109640 C T High
7321330 A C High FGC21
7568901 C G High
7751268 T C High
8189527 C G High
8805525 A G High FGC22
8864175 A G High
9227801 A T High FGC**
9239350 T C High
9296025 G A High FGC**
9316833 A G High FGC**
9374685 G C High
9992071 A C High
9992837 G A High
13142597 G T High
13271933 T A High FGC***
13632462 C A High
13687378 A T High FGC**
14071348 A T High
14207596 A T High
14313109 G T High
14367269 C A High FGC**
14369329 T A High
14398980 A G High FGC**
14399063 A G High Z3306
14399074 A G High FGC**
14399077 G A High FGC**
14399105 G A High FGC**
14409129 G T High
14630334 T C High
14630342 T C High
14630357 T C High
14644698 C T High FGC**
14644742 C T High FGC**
14709276 A T High FGC**
14709277 C G High FGC**
15532109 T C High
16188681 T A High
16633809 C T High
16682032 T G High
17211873 G A High
17325655 C G High
17610260 C T High
18550112 A T High
18641344 T A High
19118698 G T High
19221084 G T High
19543758 C T High
19842035 G T High FGC***
21556310 G A High
21573752 C G High
21735186 G A High
21868300 T A High
21952388 T C High FGC26
21971236 T C High FGC6511
22229722 T A High FGC**
22229913 C G High FGC**
22233732 C G High FGC1558
22235226 C T High FGC**
22246045 C G High FGC1557
22246199 G A High FGC1556
22251944 G A High
22259729 T C High FGC**
22262889 A T High FGC7505
22269664 C G High FGC**
22269796 T A High FGC**
22271889 G C High
22293981 C G High FGC186
22302537 C T High FGC**
22318641 A C High FGC***
22318642 G A High FGC**
22318643 A C High FGC**
22318978 T C High FGC**
22319065 T C Medium
22319066 A T Medium
22319170 A T High FGC**
22319171 G T High FGC**
22319362 A T High FGC***
22319363 T A High FGC**
22346168 A T High FGC**
22422202 T C High FGC**
22432368 G C High FGC**
22436085 T G High
22436108 G C High
22436300 A C High FGC**
22444659 A T High FGC**
22463033 C A High
22791277 G A High
23187036 C T High
23354909 A C High
23813856 A G High FGC20
23834410 C T High
23984958 C T High
24423076 G A High
24447989 A C High FGC15
24453842 G T High FGC**
26123300 C T High
28787127 G A High FGC**
28787141 C G High FGC**
28788643 G T High FGC**
28788695 T A High FGC**

randwulf
11-22-2014, 02:59 AM
Thanks, emmental!

Belgae
11-22-2014, 10:53 PM
I am happy to help remove your "*". I had noticed that your STR values in general looked closer to mine than the those in the other identified categories under Z36 on the U152 project before Richard's announcement, including that 38-40 setting. I have a couple of STR values that seem to be outliers in the grouping, such as the YCAII 17-24 values, but I am not sure what that means.

As far as recent genealogy background - I have a pretty strong paper trail to Schweinheim-Aschaffenburg in Germany. A few years ago, we visited on vacation and my last name (not a rare one, but not that common either) is pretty common there. We saw it on businesses, pictures at the historical society, the cemetery, a monument in town, etc. The church records seem to end back in the late 1600's, so that is about as far as that can go. It seems like the family has been there a long time. I have just four 25/25 matches for STRs in FTDNA, but it looks like none of them have done more advanced testing. A couple of the names are obviously Swiss/German, but I really don't even know if they are Z36+.

Thank you for providing more details on your family history. I now also understand your Avatar better, since it is part of the Celtic statue found at the Glauberg hill area (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glauberg)which is located about 40 km to the North of were your ancestors lived. The statue appears dated at 500 BC in the la Tène period.
Although still speculative, both variance calculations (n=144) and Fluxus analysis date the birth of the Z36 SNP at about 1500 BC (+/- 250?), so our common downstream SNP FGC6511 should be younger. I find it intriguing that our CDY markers are similar, which could of course be a coincidence. According to literature, these STR markers duplicate/delete once on average every 28,3 generations. This could mean that our common ancestor is somewhere between 500 and 1500 years ago. Since my family lived at least since 1500 AD (probably longer >> 1300 AD) in the Liege area, I would presume our common ancestor is before 1000 AD. When comparing our STR data using Tim Janzens (http://www.timjanzen.com/dna.html)method, our common ancestor is somewhere between 500-1000 AD. But also this is a rough estimate.

Possibly the migration of my ancestors from Germany to Belgium is related to the Franks period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks)?

randwulf
11-23-2014, 08:36 PM
Yes, the location of the Glauberg Hill is why I chose that avatar. If I had known when we visited the area what I know now, that would have been on the agenda. Maybe next time.

Your idea on the events that pushed around our ancestors seems plausible....right place and time. Hoping the picture continues to get clearer.

Kråke
11-24-2014, 04:50 PM
I have seen that you have got some result from Big-Y. Do you think it will be possibly to test SNP:s (for example FGC6511) in a near future to get more leaves on Z36 tree. I have a hypotes that my relatives came from Vallonia on my fathers side. The name could be Farke/Farque. (YCAII=19-23) and (CDY=38-41).

Belgae
11-24-2014, 07:58 PM
I have seen that you have got some result from Big-Y. Do you think it will be possibly to test SNP:s (for example FGC6511) in a near future to get more leaves on Z36 tree. I have a hypotes that my relatives came from Vallonia on my fathers side. The name could be Farke/Farque. (YCAII=19-23) and (CDY=38-41).

I have no idea when novel BigY/FGC SNPs will become available. However, I recall some discussions on this topic. Maybe Richard can shed some light on it? Should your forefathers come from Wallonia and also being Z36, of course there is a chance being positive for FGC6511. What I did, is comparing our common ancestor (TMRCA) estimates with 37 DYS values using Tim Janzen's spreadsheet:

TMRCA {B1802, 195362} ± 850 AD
TMRCA {N17830, 195362} ± 800 AD
TMRCA {B1802, N17830} ± 650 AD
TMRCA {B1802, N17830, 195362} ± 500 AD

Please do not look too much in detail on the absolute numbers, these are only rough estimates. But, your TMRCA values (B1802) are close to those of Randwulf (N17830) and mine (195362). This is of course no guarantee you also have downstream SNP FGC6511, but indeed worthwhile testing for.

Belgae
11-28-2014, 01:45 AM
Hi Kråke,

I have put SNP FGC6511 on the "whish list" of the YSEQ shop (https://www.yseq.net/)


YSEQ DNA Shop
------------------------------------------------------
Date Ordered: Thursday 27 November, 2014
FGC6511+ which is at position 21971236(T_C).
Products

Belgae
11-28-2014, 11:56 AM
Hi Kråke,

I have put SNP FGC6511 on the "whish list" of the YSEQ shop (https://www.yseq.net/)



Quick reply from Astrid Kahn:
FGC6511 is available at http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=6962

Special offer during this holliday period $19 (< 3 December) + $ 5 (postal services, at least to NL). Since I did nou use YSEQ services yet, I asked for advice and got positive feedback. Further, should you indeed be FGC6511+ after testing, forward the results or a screenshot of it by email. This will be sufficient to become a subhaplogroup FGC 6511+ member at the FTDNA U152 research group (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/).

Good luck!

Kråke
11-28-2014, 03:42 PM
I have ordered FGC6511!

randwulf
12-01-2014, 11:02 PM
I am very curious about the "Schurch family of Sumiswald, Switzerland" that is in the FTDNA U152 project group as "Z36". I noticed that the family has a website where they encourage the family members to do DNA testing at FTDNA and it appears many of them have. I match at a high level with many of the family members at 25 STRs, including one that is an exact match and several others at one or two distance. The FGC6511+ group also matches the one that is in the U152 project closely. Would it be bad form to ping them using the contact information I found at their family website to encourage them to test FGC6511? Maybe it would be better to wait until FTDNA offers it, since they seem aligned closely to testing there.

Cofgene
12-02-2014, 12:30 PM
I am very curious about the "Schurch family of Sumiswald, Switzerland" that is in the FTDNA U152 project group as "Z36". I noticed that the family has a website where they encourage the family members to do DNA testing at FTDNA and it appears many of them have. I match at a high level with many of the family members at 25 STRs, including one that is an exact match and several others at one or two distance. The FGC6511+ group also matches the one that is in the U152 project closely. Would it be bad form to ping them using the contact information I found at their family website to encourage them to test FGC6511? Maybe it would be better to wait until FTDNA offers it, since they seem aligned closely to testing there.

Give it a try. The tack may be that this is an investigation into whether some of the Swiss Anabaptist lineages were closely related before surnames were used. As more Swiss Anabaptist lines get advanced SNP testing in place some interesting relationships are coming out.

Also remember that you need to figure out how to get the Krahenbuehl (Kraybill), Kauffman, and some other lines on the Big-Y train. There are at least 6 other lines that need to test to see if they drop down into the Swiss Z36 region. Once again this week one of the Swiss KFA Kauffman's has a Big-Y coupon but it is proving difficult to generate interest in getting someone in that cluster to take the test.

Kråke
12-19-2014, 03:56 PM
I have got the result from YSEQ

Your YSEQ ID is: 1676
SampleID Marker+ Chr Start End Allele
1676 FGC18124 ChrY 21971359 21971359 G-
1676 FGC23949 ChrY 21971246 21971246 A-
1676 FGC6511 ChrY 21971236 21971236 T-
1676 M3405 ChrY 21971365 21971365 C-
1676 M4572 ChrY 21971238 21971238 T-
1676 Y4087 ChrY 21971214 21971214 A-
1676 Y5334 ChrY 21971359 21971359 G-
1676 Z18323 ChrY 21971214 21971214 A-

So FGC6511 was negative.
Do you have suggestions on any other SNP test I could do?

Belgae
12-21-2014, 12:42 AM
I have got the result from YSEQ

So FGC6511 was negative.
Do you have suggestions on any other SNP test I could do?

It is a pitty you are negative for all these SNPs, including FGC 6511. :( At this moment I do not have any suggestions for additional SNPs to test for, may be others have?

randwulf
01-05-2015, 02:30 AM
Give it a try. The tack may be that this is an investigation into whether some of the Swiss Anabaptist lineages were closely related before surnames were used. As more Swiss Anabaptist lines get advanced SNP testing in place some interesting relationships are coming out.

Also remember that you need to figure out how to get the Krahenbuehl (Kraybill), Kauffman, and some other lines on the Big-Y train. There are at least 6 other lines that need to test to see if they drop down into the Swiss Z36 region. Once again this week one of the Swiss KFA Kauffman's has a Big-Y coupon but it is proving difficult to generate interest in getting someone in that cluster to take the test.

I sent a note to the Schurch family representatives. They weren't interested in participating at this time, but said they would keep the idea in mind, as they may eventually want to do the more advanced testing. Oh, well.......

emmental
02-15-2015, 03:30 AM
Hello Everyone

YFull has just posted their haplogroup age predictions.

Quick summary:

M269 15,100 ybp 17,600< >12,800
L23 12,200 ybp 14,300< >10,300
L51 6400 ybp 7900 < > 5700
L151 6000 ybp 7900 < > 4900
P312 6000 ybp 7900 < > 4900
U152 5800 ybp 7700 < > 4300
Z36 5300 ybp 6500 < > 4100

emmental
02-20-2015, 03:18 AM
Hello Everyone

YFull has just posted their haplogroup age predictions.

Quick summary:

M269 15,100 ybp 17,600< >12,800
L23 12,200 ybp 14,300< >10,300
L51 6400 ybp 7900 < > 5700
L151 6000 ybp 7900 < > 4900
P312 6000 ybp 7900 < > 4900
U152 5800 ybp 7700 < > 4300
Z36 5300 ybp 6500 < > 4100

It looks like YFull did a revision:

Now they have:

U152 4700 ybp 5200 < > 4200
Z36 4500 ybp 5100 < > 4000

MitchellSince1893
02-20-2015, 03:39 AM
It looks like YFull did a revision:

Now they have:

U152 4700 ybp 5200 < > 4200
Z36 4500 ybp 5100 < > 4000

Ironically they are showing L2 also being 4500ybp which is exactly what I figured earlier.

As it's at the same level below U152 as L2, I come up 4500 ybp +/- 750 years (3750 to 5250 ybp) using SNP count dating.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3739-Age-of-PF6658-Z193&p=65870&viewfull=1#post65870

Belgae
02-21-2015, 01:09 AM
It looks like YFull did a revision:

Now they have:

U152 4700 ybp 5200 < > 4200
Z36 4500 ybp 5100 < > 4000


Thanks for posting Jim! For Z36 we did our estimate at 4500 - 4000 ybp, so quite a similar range. But, U152 only being on average 200 yrs older ??? mmmm, or must have been a very population expansive period. Any idea how they determined their estimates?

emmental
02-21-2015, 02:47 AM
Thanks for posting Jim! For Z36 we did our estimate at 4500 - 4000 ybp, so quite a similar range. But, U152 only being on average 200 yrs older ??? mmmm, or must have been a very population expansive period. Any idea how they determined their estimates?

Well, nothing was found between U152 and Z36 in our FGC results or the Big Y and, like you said, it was an expansive period, so I guess it could be so.

On YFull's Facebook page they say a paper is coming out explaining how they came up with these ages. I think they will be making adjustments as more data comes in.

Kråke
03-04-2015, 05:40 PM
I saw a updated U152 chart by MitchellSince1893 from 26 feb. Shall I (I am Z36+) test any SNP from this chart or it is to early. I have tested FGC6511- and z54- (I have also tested L671- and CTS188- but I can´t find them in the chart). Z36+ is perhaps the end of the tree or is the answer that we have to wait.

Cascio
03-21-2015, 10:28 AM
In the supplementary section of the new British Genetic Study there is a map of a French cluster that straddles the border with NW Italy with outliers in Liguria and NW Tuscany.

Is there a link to R-Z36?

Romilius
03-22-2015, 11:02 AM
Is there a way to know the difference between a Z36 from Switzerland and a Z36 from Italy from STR?

Kråke
05-16-2015, 09:25 PM
Any news about Z36?

eastara
08-29-2015, 11:19 AM
A Bulgarian, 258248 Yanev has unexpectedly tested Z36+ after the M343 Downstream test. Although he has only 12 STR markers, his haplotype looks different than most other Z36. Unfortunately this is a sponsored kit and no funds for deeper testing.
My question is has it ever been proved on the Balkans or Anatolia?

Kråke
11-24-2015, 12:02 PM
I have done a Big-Y and send me result to Yfull and Y-tree. From Y-tree I got:
Classon
FTDNA: B1802
MDKA Birth: Sweden 1802
Tree Position

R-P312/S116 > ZZ11 > U152/S28 > Z36/S206 > A7970 > Classon (FTDNA: B1802)

The result from Yfull isn´t ready yet.

Kråke
12-09-2015, 07:01 AM
I can also read at YTree for A7970
Mutations in Block:


Event Region POS-REF-ALT Names Notes
0 17178479-G-T A7970
13672823-C-T
19311810-C-G A7967
21569454-G-T BY1767 A7971
22513335-T-C A7968
24382845-G-A A7972

I I look at FTDNA BigY (my matches) I can see that

199556 Pierre Monnier before 1600
250655 Peter Readerstorf died 1749, Koestlach, France
N21533 Wendel Herb b. ca 1655? Odenswald, Germany
198590 Jacob Syvertsen Mollestad b 1733, Birkeland, AGD

Is this interesting?

pmyoung72
01-04-2016, 02:29 AM
I believe my family is Scottish, but I have been unable to confirm. FamilyTree DNA offers the following tests downstream of Z36. I saw an earlier post identifying a Scottish cluster, but the numbers don't match the tests offered by FamilyTree DNA as far as I can tell. Does anyone know which is the match to the Scottish cluster?

L671

P61

CTS5531

CTS188

CTS7983

CTS8516

CTS2687

CTS7618

TigerMW
06-27-2016, 09:05 PM
Any news about Z36?
It's apparent we can expect an R1b-Z36 SNP Pack from FTDNA soon.

Kråke
06-30-2016, 07:30 AM
Thanks Mike!
Do you know anything more about the R1b-Z36 SNP Pack?

randwulf
07-27-2016, 12:19 AM
It looks like the FTDNA tree is updated - I am officially "R-FGC6511" now!

Kråke
07-27-2016, 02:12 PM
If I compare my tree at YFull, YTree, FTDNA and U152 and subglades I find differences.
YFull: U152 - Z36 - A7970, A7967, A7971, A7968, A7972.
YTree: U152 - ZZ45 - Z36 - A7970, A7966, A7971, A7967, A7968, A7972.
FTDNA: U152 - Z36 - A7966- A7967, A7971, A7969, A7970, A7972, A7968.
U152 and subglades: U152 - ZZ45 - Z36 - A7966, A7970.
Can anyone explain why?

MitchellSince1893
07-27-2016, 05:43 PM
If I compare my tree at YFull, YTree, FTDNA and U152 and subglades I find differences.
YFull: U152 - Z36 - A7970, A7967, A7971, A7968, A7972.
YTree: U152 - ZZ45 - Z36 - A7970, A7966, A7971, A7967, A7968, A7972.
FTDNA: U152 - Z36 - A7966- A7967, A7971, A7969, A7970, A7972, A7968.
U152 and subglades: U152 - ZZ45 - Z36 - A7966, A7970.
Can anyone explain why?

Because they use different criteria. For example Bigtree will include indels on its tree and SNPs in regions that others won't include. I don't think Yfull will not use indels on their tree.

For example: From the BigTree site.

ZZ45 is a SNP in the DYZ19 (125bp repeat) region. Unlike most SNPs, the exact position of this SNP is not known, but it may be 22299247. Examination of BAM files shows that there must be similar regions of DYZ19 and that ZZ45 could be in one of those other regions. NGS tests don't have read lengths long enough to distinguish the regions. It is clear that a mutation exists, but the exact position is currently unknown.
If one were to check a BAM file for this SNP, it would appear as a mixture of about 50% C reads and 50% G reads at position 22299247.

Also they have different minimum standards for what is acceptable for being on their trees e.g. Probability of error, min reads etc.

emmental
07-27-2016, 11:38 PM
I just noticed that there is a new person in the Z36>FGC6424 group on The Big Tree. :welcome:

His position is not yet finalized, but it's great to have another member after a looonnnggg wait!!!

emmental
08-01-2016, 04:39 PM
The Big Tree has not yet finalized the new guy's position, but I see that he is positive for FGC6417, FGC6461, FGC6418, FGC6423, FGC6427, FGC8070, FGC6429, FGC6431 and FGC6433. Another 13 of my FGC SNPS which I share with 1KG NA12144 don't seem to be in the Big Y coverage, but 7 others are within Big Y coverage. It would be nice to know if these 7 are negative or just not listed for some reason.

Nothing has yet appeared on the U152 and Subclades Phylogenetic Tree.

emmental
09-07-2016, 11:21 PM
In case you haven't yet heard the news - The Z36 SNP pack is out!!

The SNPs included are (per the announcement):

SNPs included in the R1b - Z36 SNP Pack

Includes the following SNPs on the haplotree:
Z36, CTS5531, CTS8492, Z143, Z54, Z37, Z38, CTS188, CTS4333, CTS7958, Z16268, FGC6511, FGC6418, FGC6423, FGC6427, FGC6431, FGC8070, V2488, A7983, A7984, A7985, A7986, A7987, S8024, S8033, BY3551, BY3553, BY4043, A7982, A7981, BY4044, BY1262, A7976, A7977, A7978, A7980, BY1106, A7974, A7967, A7968, A7969, A7970, A7971, A7972, A7966, A7995, A8000, S8010, A7998, A7996, A7999, A8015, A7993, A7992, FGC43716, Y19716, FGC43713, FGC43717, Y19410, Y19411, A8033, A8034, Y16895, Y17163, Y17166, Y16891, Y16893, Y16890, Y16885, Y16886, Y16887, Y16894, Y17172, A8031, BY1328, BY2151, Y16889, Y17161, BY9458, BY9460

Includes the following SNPs that are NOT YET on the haplotree:
CTS10641, FGC6434, FGC8068, PF6634, PF6635, CTS10146, CTS10276, CTS10470, CTS10755, CTS10812, CTS115, CTS2162, CTS2729, CTS8149, FGC6419, FGC6420, FGC6424, FGC6425, FGC6430, FGC6422, Z29494, Z29495, Z29497, Z29499, Z29993, Z29994, Z39, Z41, Z67, A7962, A7964, A7994, A8017, A8020, A8022, A8036, A8037, PF6637, PF6639, PF6641, PF6643, PF6644, PF6645, PF6647, PF6648, PF6649, PF6650, PF6651, PH2450, PH4380, S8034, PH5264, PH2710

emmental
09-21-2016, 10:43 PM
Evidently, results are beginning to come in for the Z36 SNP pack. Someone just tested positive for all 13 SNPs offered in the FGC6418 group. :welcome:

R.Rocca
09-22-2016, 01:00 PM
Evidently, results are beginning to come in for the Z36 SNP pack. Someone just tested positive for all 13 SNPs offered in the FGC6418 group. :welcome:

Wow, that was quick! Look forward to more results.

emmental
09-22-2016, 01:50 PM
There seems to be 5 other Z36 Pack results posted from the U152 Project: One with a terminal of A7982, two with a terminal of A7993, one with A7995, and one Z36*.

Evidently the pack was available before I received my notification email from FTDNA. I ordered the same day I was notified and my results aren't due until the end of October or early November.

MitchellSince1893
09-22-2016, 03:30 PM
Sometimes there is a pleasant surprise and your results show up earlier than estimated.

emmental
10-05-2016, 12:38 PM
The results for the 2nd batch of the Z36 SNP Pack have come in. Twelve have now been completed. So far the last shared varients are: A7993 (3), A7982 (2), FGC6418 (2), A7967 (1), A7995 (1), V2488 (1) and Z36* (2).

Does anyone know if more are in queue?

Cofgene
10-05-2016, 04:31 PM
The results for the 2nd batch of the Z36 SNP Pack have come in. Twelve have now been completed. So far the terminals are: A7993 (3), A7982 (2), FGC6418 (2), A7967 (1), A7995 (1), V2488 (1) and Z36* (2).

Does anyone know if more are in queue?

no "terminal". It is a last shared variant, last shared haplogroup,...... Remove 'terminal' from the genetic genealogy vocabulary. So what is NOT working on that pack?

emmental
10-05-2016, 08:51 PM
I edited the post.

All 13 SNPs are working in my group. In fact there was someone new to the FGC6418 group who also tested positive for all 13. I can't speak for the other haplogroups though.



no "terminal". It is a last shared variant, last shared haplogroup,...... Remove 'terminal' from the genetic genealogy vocabulary. So what is NOT working on that pack?

MitchellSince1893
10-05-2016, 09:14 PM
ISOGG definition

A terminal SNP is the defining SNP of the latest subclade known by current research.

Cofgene
10-06-2016, 10:59 AM
ISOGG definition


And since when has ISOGG y-tree had anything related to science correct? Definitions and criteria were put in place by hobbyists and leave a lot to be desired. The word "terminal" will be removed from their vocabulary as the existing definitions and criteria are rewritten. Terminal implies "final" not an ever changing value based upon new findings. This is why we need to improve the description in our use of locations relative to the phylogeny to accurately describe the situation.

My personal "Terminal' variant appeared in my great-grandfather. That is a much better representation of something that will not change with new results.

MitchellSince1893
10-06-2016, 11:18 AM
And since when has ISOGG y-tree had anything related to science correct? Definitions and criteria were put in place by hobbyists and leave a lot to be desired. The word "terminal" will be removed from their vocabulary as the existing definitions and criteria are rewritten. Terminal implies "final" not an ever changing value based upon new findings. This is why we need to improve the description in our use of locations relative to the phylogeny to accurately describe the situation.

My personal "Terminal' variant appeared in my great-grandfather. That is a much better representation of something that will not change with new results.

So let me get this straight...You have made it your personal crusade to redefine the use of "terminal SNP" because you don't like it/it's not accurate? And you have decided to correct anyone that uses the accepted definition. Good luck with that.

TigerMW
10-06-2016, 11:50 AM
So let me get this straight...You have made it your personal crusade to redefine the use of "terminal SNP" because you don't like it/it's not accurate? And you have decided to correct anyone that uses the accepted definition. Good luck with that.
I have to give Cofgene credit. I don't know if he will change the world but he converted me. His arguments lay dormant in the back of mind until another terminology discussion came up ("private" versus "public"). I realized straightforward English is better than these terms. Some of these terms change over time. Good examples are "private" and "SNP" (which replaced "UEP" but is a misnomer.)

Plain speaking is really best. We do need some acronyms for long winded specific nouns. Every industry has some acronyms.

MitchellSince1893
10-06-2016, 12:18 PM
I have to give Cofgene credit. I don't know if he will change the world but he converted me. His arguments lay dormant in the back of mind until another terminology discussion came up ("private" versus "public"). I realized straightforward English is better than these terms. Some of these terms change over time. Good examples are "private" and "SNP" (which replaced "UEP" but is a misnomer.)

Plain speaking is really best. We do need some acronyms for long winded specific nouns. Every industry has some acronyms.

Until ISOGG and other big players stop using the term "terminal SNP" then there will be an endless stream of new users of this term. Rather than correcting individuals that are using a commonly understood definition for this term, wouldn't it be more useful to go to the sources and get them to change? Case in point. FTDNA uses it on this page.
12021


Thus I found it odd that Cofgene was telling emmental to
Remove 'terminal' from the genetic genealogy vocabulary as emmental was simply using the term as it's presently defined by most people in the community.

Personally I often use the term "current terminal SNP" to highlight it's subject to change.

MitchellSince1893
10-06-2016, 12:19 PM
Double post

TigerMW
10-06-2016, 02:01 PM
Until ISOGG and other big players stop using the term "terminal SNP" then there will be an endless stream of new users of this term. Rather than correcting individuals that are using a commonly understood definition for this term,
I am not on a mission to correct this so if someone uses the term that is fine. They just need to be ready to explain.

I guess I'm multi-lingual. On the other hand I think I will try to figure out the best plain English for "youngest shared SNP" and use that.

I'm not sure if the words "public" and "private" even apply any more. They've had changing definitions but "private" may only be a temporal state any way.


wouldn't it be more useful to go to the sources and get them to change?
....
I agree but sometimes the references are just repeating somebody else and you have to find the originator/author who is willing to fix it. I hope people do this but it's not the most productive use of time. Some of these situations are like the immovable object.

Cofgene may have the gumption for this, though.

Kråke
10-06-2016, 02:03 PM
My relative is one of the 13 tested. I have tested Big Y (A7967) and he tested the SNP-pack (A7967). What do do next?

Cofgene
10-06-2016, 10:29 PM
Cofgene may have the gumption for this, though.


I have the gumption but I am also under direct threat of "banning" and continued censorship by some very visible members of ISOGG for airing their dirty laundry on how the tree and listing criteria are maintained. I'm also under very, very heavy pressure from a group of admins to "shut the $*$& up" about the problems. Change is slowly coming but it still being processed by individuals who have no direct exposure to sequencing technologies or analysis. Individuals with bench top science experience are the exception. There are good intentions but if the majority of the group cannot explain the basis for and use of quality scores real improvements will be limited.

I'm biding my time to see how the herd attempts to redefine items.

TigerMW
10-07-2016, 04:41 PM
I have the gumption but I am also under direct threat of "banning" and continued censorship by some very visible members of ISOGG for airing their dirty laundry on how the tree and listing criteria are maintained. I'm also under very, very heavy pressure from a group of admins to "shut the $*$& up" about the problems. Change is slowly coming but it still being processed by individuals who have no direct exposure to sequencing technologies or analysis. Individuals with bench top science experience are the exception. There are good intentions but if the majority of the group cannot explain the basis for and use of quality scores real improvements will be limited.

I'm biding my time to see how the herd attempts to redefine items.
umm... I understand. It's a bit of strange eco-system we are in.

The work I do involves competitive sales and I found out long ago I needed a lot of resources to win. I found it was better to open the door and invite all of my friends in even though sometimes chaos ensued. The world is very open and democratic by its nature nowadays. That's a good thing except for the status quo and the establishment view.

As you can tell, I've done my share of rabble rousing so I'm always supportive of gumption.

LOL, it's not the beer, but here's my new hero of rabble rousing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Adams

Francesco62
12-26-2016, 08:57 AM
Hello to everyone
I posted in an other tread about Z36 map in Italy , and repost here as I could like to follow this tread too and maybe I should introduce myself

Hello everyone, I am fully new to DNA analyses and I really know very little of it, even how to read my tests results honestly :(: R1b -U152 > Z36 > ( L671) > A7966 >A7967 > R BY1106.( hope I wrote it properly).

I am of Italian nationality and the known origins of my family in both sides are mainly from Massa in Tuscany, Trieste and I may have a Swiss link in the French speaking canton de Vaud.
As Italy is clearly populated since ages by different ethnicities I am interested to know from really "where " I come from:)

So what is most interesting to me, would be to understand more about the ancient ethnic origins of my forefathers and for this I am already very grateful to Passa and Mitchellsince1893 who posted those maps.
Those data represent now the only things "known" to me at the present moment . I read in Eupedia , from (where a very helpful English participant sent me here ), that Z36 should be the very Celtic branch in the U 152 tree, but that's all I know or ...think to know :)

I made a first DNA test with FTDNA ( Family finder ) don't moths ago and later I purchased a GENO 2:0 making a full transfer of the results to my DNA account 556750.

I could just find in R U152 Group on FTDNA, a man , Samuel Spiker who lived in 1760-1826 ( and his full DNA results seems to be important as paternal ancestor of a Spicer family project ) , as the only one with my same haplogroup R BY 1106 .

I would be grateful and really appreciate to be helped and driven in understanding a bit more of my line and where to look and what to study to learn more .

If I made some involuntary mistakes or breached any rules please forgive me as I am at my very first post and I found a lot of great informations in this site.

I will have no problems of course to share my files with anyone who would be interested in helping me to swim in these charts :)

Kråke
01-13-2017, 01:35 PM
As I mentioned before has a "relative" made Z36-pack test. We are now both R1b-A7967. I then let him test 12 of my private SNPs and of these are 10 positive and one negative and one is not ready. The tests have been performed at YSEQ. Is this interesting for someone more than myself?

RicFVS
02-14-2018, 11:00 AM
Hi everyone,

I'm Richard and I'm writing from Tuscany/Italy
I'm Z143/CTS1595 and my father's family lived between Umbria and Marche regions in late XIV century.

Romilius
02-21-2018, 07:03 AM
Do you remember when I wrote, on the Z36 map thread, that, probably, Z36 could be also Germanic?

Let's see here: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/02/20/268250

In Supplementary Table, in Y-Chromosome Haplogroup table, an individual (SZ5) from Szólád Longobard cemetery in Hungary was downstream for Z36: CTS1595!!!!

Principe
05-28-2018, 10:42 PM
Hello to the Z36 squad, my maternal uncle has tested positive for Z36 on Nat Geo which makes Z36 my maternal Y. Based on his CSV file from ftdna he appears to be Z36*.

My maternal grandfather was from Cattolica Eraclea, Agrigento in Sicily and I will buy the Y37 str when the next available sale is on.

I would like to know what the people familar with this line think how Z36 made it to Sicily and what is already known about Z36 in ancient dna.

Acque agitate
05-29-2018, 09:41 AM
Hello to the Z36 squad, my maternal uncle has tested positive for Z36 on Nat Geo which makes Z36 my maternal Y. Based on his CSV file from ftdna he appears to be Z36*.

My maternal grandfather was from Cattolica Eraclea, Agrigento in Sicily and I will buy the Y37 str when the next available sale is on.

I would like to know what the people familar with this line think how Z36 made it to Sicily and what is already known about Z36 in ancient dna.

At present I am only aware of another Z36 coming from Sicily, specifically from Modica. Unfortunately this sample has been tested only for Z36 and therefore the subgroup of belonging is not known.
Z36 is quite common in the Po Valley and in the Apennine area between Emilia and Tuscany (where, moreover, R1b is a massively widespread group) but is also found in other Italian areas, albeit with a much lower diffusion (obviously on the basis of data currently available).
Consequently, I believe that at the moment it is very difficult to propose hypotheses about the origin of your maternal grandfather, unless you want to do a great exercise in fantasy. Your data will be important to understand above all if you will proceed to a sufficiently detailed analysis

Acque agitate
05-29-2018, 10:34 AM
Hello to the Z36 squad, my maternal uncle has tested positive for Z36 on Nat Geo which makes Z36 my maternal Y. Based on his CSV file from ftdna he appears to be Z36*.

My maternal grandfather was from Cattolica Eraclea, Agrigento in Sicily and I will buy the Y37 str when the next available sale is on.

I would like to know what the people familar with this line think how Z36 made it to Sicily and what is already known about Z36 in ancient dna.

At present I am only aware of another Z36 coming from Sicily, specifically from Modica. Unfortunately this sample has been tested only for Z36 and therefore the subgroup of belonging is not known.
Z36 is quite common in the Po Valley and in the Apennine area between Emilia and Tuscany (where, moreover, R1b is a massively widespread group) but is also found in other Italian areas, albeit with a much lower diffusion (obviously on the basis of data currently available).
Consequently, I believe that at the moment it is very difficult to propose hypotheses about the origin of your maternal grandfather, unless you want to do a great exercise in fantasy. Your data will be important to understand above all if you will proceed to a sufficiently detailed analysis

Cofgene
05-29-2018, 11:03 AM
There is a new WGS result available which matches Brubaker (https://brubakerfamilies.org/) with Strickler under R-V1192. They share FGC79747; site of Y59575, FGC79729, FGC79726 which were not called by FTDNA. So may form a new node by branching off of the other sample under V1192. Brubuaker has insufficient coverage for the V1192 equivalents BY39614 & BY39608 for a good call. I'll see about getting the data into the haplogroup-r repository.

Principe
05-29-2018, 12:36 PM
At present I am only aware of another Z36 coming from Sicily, specifically from Modica. Unfortunately this sample has been tested only for Z36 and therefore the subgroup of belonging is not known.
Z36 is quite common in the Po Valley and in the Apennine area between Emilia and Tuscany (where, moreover, R1b is a massively widespread group) but is also found in other Italian areas, albeit with a much lower diffusion (obviously on the basis of data currently available).
Consequently, I believe that at the moment it is very difficult to propose hypotheses about the origin of your maternal grandfather, unless you want to do a great exercise in fantasy. Your data will be important to understand above all if you will proceed to a sufficiently detailed analysis

Grazie mille for your response, I took a look to see what I can find.

Found this nice chart

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1uIAlIG2akvRYgW1IVE4z32amOz0&ll=51.91821785180498%2C9.20100617433917&z=3

It looks like there’s 2 in Sicily besides my maternal Y, though it doesn’t look like they are a placed in a specific village, the result for Modica may turn out to be closely related to my Nonno’s Y, My maternal surname is most frequent and looks to be originally from Scicli (though not confirmed), and there is also the 2 from Malta.

A Y37 will at least better place to see where my uncle fits, luckily father’s day specials are around the corner.

Since it is still early, I think three educated guesses can be made about Z36’s branches spread or where it might have been an important lineage, they are the Celtic tribes of Switzerland and Southern Germany, the Polada Culture and the Middle Age Swabians.

branimir
06-15-2018, 01:52 PM
Hello, I tested at the YSEQ U152 panel a while back and found I belong to Z36. All of my known male ancestors have been from eastern Bosnia and I would like to hear if any other Balkan (Yugoslav in particular) has this haplogroup and if anyone has any idea how it might have ended up here. To my knowledge, there are very few U152 in the Balkans and next to none Z36.

Mastaldo
06-19-2018, 06:15 PM
At present I am only aware of another Z36 coming from Sicily, specifically from Modica. Unfortunately this sample has been tested only for Z36 and therefore the subgroup of belonging is not known.
Z36 is quite common in the Po Valley and in the Apennine area between Emilia and Tuscany (where, moreover, R1b is a massively widespread group) but is also found in other Italian areas, albeit with a much lower diffusion (obviously on the basis of data currently available).
Consequently, I believe that at the moment it is very difficult to propose hypotheses about the origin of your maternal grandfather, unless you want to do a great exercise in fantasy. Your data will be important to understand above all if you will proceed to a sufficiently detailed analysis

What is the main difference between Z36 and Z56?

Acque agitate
06-20-2018, 09:36 AM
What is the main difference between Z36 and Z56?

In what sense? Are you referring to the distribution of Z36 and Z56?

montagnoli
06-20-2018, 04:50 PM
I would like to know if R-Z36 is common in Veneto. My ancestors, in the patrilineal lineage, are from the province of Verona, since the 17th century, as far as I know.

R.Rocca
06-20-2018, 06:45 PM
I would like to know if R-Z36 is common in Veneto. My ancestors, in the patrilineal lineage, are from the province of Verona, since the 17th century, as far as I know.

Welcome to the forum Montagnoli! It is difficult to say much about R-Z36 in Veneto since it has not been tested directly by academia. Boattini (2013) did test for U152(xL2) and found it at frequencies of 5.0% in Vicenza and 6.1% in Treviso. This only tells us the maximum possible frequency, as no doubt some of those samples belonged not only to Z36, but also Z56 and PF6658.

Pribislav
06-20-2018, 10:42 PM
Hello, I tested at the YSEQ U152 panel a while back and found I belong to Z36. All of my known male ancestors have been from eastern Bosnia and I would like to hear if any other Balkan (Yugoslav in particular) has this haplogroup and if anyone has any idea how it might have ended up here. To my knowledge, there are very few U152 in the Balkans and next to none Z36.

Hello Branimir! It's true Z36 is pretty rare in the Balkans, but we recently got two results from members of one large tribe in Montengro (Moračani Bogićevci), and they both tested Z36>Z67* (xZ70). It's a sister clade to yours, but the two separated ~4500 years ago, so it's not very likely they migrated to the Balkans together/at the same time. My guess for most U152 subclades is they probably came during Urnfield and/or Hallstatt cultures (~1300-500 BC). If you have more questions you can send me a PM.

montagnoli
06-20-2018, 10:51 PM
Welcome to the forum Montagnoli! It is difficult to say much about R-Z36 in Veneto since it has not been tested directly by academia. Boattini (2013) did test for U152(xL2) and found it at frequencies of 5.0% in Vicenza and 6.1% in Treviso. This only tells us the maximum possible frequency, as no doubt some of those samples belonged not only to Z36, but also Z56 and PF6658.

I am glad to participate in the forum, thank you. Thank you also for the information. So it seems that the frequencies of R-U152 in Veneto are quite low. I read at Eupedia that R-Z36 is a haplogroup of alpine Celtic origin. So maybe its frequencies are higher in the regions of the former Cisalpine Gaul, associated with the Cenomani, Insubri, and other Celtic tribes (more in Lombardia than in Veneto, therefore).

Acque agitate
06-21-2018, 09:37 AM
I am glad to participate in the forum, thank you. Thank you also for the information. So it seems that the frequencies of R-U152 in Veneto are quite low. I read at Eupedia that R-Z36 is a haplogroup of alpine Celtic origin. So maybe its frequencies are higher in the regions of the former Cisalpine Gaul, associated with the Cenomani, Insubri, and other Celtic tribes (more in Lombardia than in Veneto, therefore).

Ciao Montagnoli,
the appearance of the Z36 mutation is antecedent for millennia to the formation of the peoples to which you referred. So at the current state of knowledge of your genome it is impossible to make assessments on your appearance to specific peoples.
If you want to understand a little more it is essential that you submit to a more detailed test (the type of test depends on how much you are willing to spend, from a minimum of about 80 €, to a maximum of about 500 €).
From the information in my possession Z36 is quite present in the area where you currently live. When I say quite I take into account the limited number of Italian people (especially in northern Italy) who underwent a minimally detailed test. I refer to Ferrara, Verona, Trento, Brescia, Cremona, Reggio Emilia, etc.
I also inform you that I think it is likely that you belong to the subgroup Z36>BY1328>A7992, which, in my opinion, is the most widespread in your area of ​​residence (I refer to a neighborhood of 100/200 Km)

montagnoli
06-22-2018, 10:11 PM
Ciao Montagnoli,
the appearance of the Z36 mutation is antecedent for millennia to the formation of the peoples to which you referred. So at the current state of knowledge of your genome it is impossible to make assessments on your appearance to specific peoples.
If you want to understand a little more it is essential that you submit to a more detailed test (the type of test depends on how much you are willing to spend, from a minimum of about 80 €, to a maximum of about 500 €).
From the information in my possession Z36 is quite present in the area where you currently live. When I say quite I take into account the limited number of Italian people (especially in northern Italy) who underwent a minimally detailed test. I refer to Ferrara, Verona, Trento, Brescia, Cremona, Reggio Emilia, etc.
I also inform you that I think it is likely that you belong to the subgroup Z36>BY1328>A7992, which, in my opinion, is the most widespread in your area of ​​residence (I refer to a neighborhood of 100/200 Km)

Ciao Acque agitate. Thanks for your answer. I've already thought of taking ftdna's big Y test, but I'm waiting to see if those high prices fall a bit in the future. I tried to find some information concerning the subgroup of R-Z36 you've mentioned, but I couldn't find A7992 at the R1b YTree, in YFull site. I found the mutation BY1328 there, and the subclade R-A7993 of R-Z36, but not A7992. As for R-A7993, it seems that is a subclade related to Germany.

Romilius
06-24-2018, 09:50 AM
Good morning everyone,

two "new" members of the A7992 family: kit 290804 and kit E21077.

They are members of the U152 project and of the Lanzone / Lanzoni project. This last project was founded by a close friend of mine: he saw the two kits are very similar in STR values (distance on 12 markers given by FTDna = 1)... now he thinks not to be his father's son! I can't help him because I'm not an expert in analyzing STR values... but if you can give a look to the project chart: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/LanzoneLanzoni?iframe=yresults

Romilius
06-25-2018, 08:13 PM
Good morning everyone,

two "new" members of the A7992 family: kit 290804 and kit E21077.

They are members of the U152 project and of the Lanzone / Lanzoni project. This last project was founded by a close friend of mine: he saw the two kits are very similar in STR values (distance on 12 markers given by FTDna = 1)... now he thinks not to be his father's son! I can't help him because I'm not an expert in analyzing STR values... but if you can give a look to the project chart: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/LanzoneLanzoni?iframe=yresults

I forgot to say that the two kits have very different surnames!

galon07
02-01-2019, 03:15 AM
My maternal uncle has just been confirmed Z36. The family has its origins in Northern Italy. I'll probably be narrowing it down by taking the Z36 pack some time soon.

Romilius
02-01-2019, 07:07 AM
Ciao Acque agitate. Thanks for your answer. I've already thought of taking ftdna's big Y test, but I'm waiting to see if those high prices fall a bit in the future. I tried to find some information concerning the subgroup of R-Z36 you've mentioned, but I couldn't find A7992 at the R1b YTree, in YFull site. I found the mutation BY1328 there, and the subclade R-A7993 of R-Z36, but not A7992. As for R-A7993, it seems that is a subclade related to Germany.

Aren't A7992 and A7993 equivalent?
I saw kits positive for both A7992 and A7993 signed on FTDna as A7992.

Principe
02-23-2019, 10:10 PM
My maternal uncle’s BigY700 has come in! He appears to be Z36* with 38 unamed variants, will be posting his results to Yfull, how long does it take for the BAM file to generate?

Principe
03-15-2019, 03:43 PM
A little update on my uncle's results via Yfull it appears that he forms a new branch the R-Y156527

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y156527/

They haven't put my uncle's result in this branch yet, but he is positive for those 6 snp's and I think is the reference.

Romilius
03-15-2019, 04:04 PM
A little update on my uncle's results via Yfull it appears that he forms a new branch the R-Y156527

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y156527/

They haven't put my uncle's result in this branch yet, but he is positive for those 6 snp's and I think is the reference.

Interesting... a new branch under Z36...

Also a friend of mine is waiting for Yfull results. His subclade is A7993 for now, and he shares, in Italy, that subclade and area of origin with two noble families. His family is of noble origin too.

Romilius
03-17-2019, 12:30 PM
Interesting... a new branch under Z36...

Also a friend of mine is waiting for Yfull results. His subclade is A7993 for now, and he shares, in Italy, that subclade and area of origin with two noble families. His family is of noble origin too.

I quote myself to give an update:

my friend received his new results: R-Z36+A7993+FGC71023+

I think it's a new branch: he shares it with people from USA (1 person), Russia (1 p), UK (1 p), Mexico (1 p), Czech Rep (1 p), Germany (1 p).
The Russian belongs to a downstream subclade: BY32412

I looked at Yfull... the subclades aren't there...

Principe
04-10-2019, 06:45 PM
And my uncle’s result finally created a new branch.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y156527/

With a fairly young TMRCA, honestly seeing the person he branches with and what seems to be 2 others that can potentially be part of the same branch, it looks like this line is Germanic or at least spread with Germanics, so far from what I’m theorizing Suebi makes the most sense.

Romilius
05-13-2019, 06:12 PM
I quote myself to give an update:

my friend received his new results: R-Z36+A7993+FGC71023+

I think it's a new branch: he shares it with people from USA (1 person), Russia (1 p), UK (1 p), Mexico (1 p), Czech Rep (1 p), Germany (1 p).
The Russian belongs to a downstream subclade: BY32412

I looked at Yfull... the subclades aren't there...

Another update, perhaps interesting about my Z36 friend:

FTDna created a new subclade under FGC71023: BY158114.

My friend and the Czech guy of the FCG71023 group now are under BY158114. I wonder what could it mean: Italy and Czech Republic are far from each other. They are the only two members of BY158114 for now.

galon07
06-14-2019, 03:57 PM
My maternal uncle's subclade was updated after the Z36 SNP pack results. Now it's R-A7992. From what I could see, there's nowhere else to go from here via SNP test. Only Big Y now.

30945

Romilius
06-15-2019, 05:19 AM
My maternal uncle's subclade was updated after the Z36 SNP pack results. Now it's R-A7992. From what I could see, there's nowhere else to go from here via SNP test. Only Big Y now.

30945

Yes, for Z36 people the Big Y is very recommended.

galon07
06-17-2019, 05:14 PM
Yes, for Z36 people the Big Y is very recommended.

Yes, I'll just have to wait quite a bit now, as it's very expensive here (US$ 1 = BRL 4). But I do intend to order it some time soon.

Romilius
06-18-2019, 06:10 PM
Yes, I'll just have to wait quite a bit now, as it's very expensive here (US$ 1 = BRL 4). But I do intend to order it some time soon.

Yes, I understand: it's very expensive everywhere.

From where in Lombardy was your ancestor Napoleon Galon from?

My Z36>A7992/A7993>FGC71023>BY158114 friend is from the area south of Bergamo in the Bergamo province.

galon07
06-19-2019, 05:09 PM
Yes, I understand: it's very expensive everywhere.

From where in Lombardy was your ancestor Napoleon Galon from?

My Z36>A7992/A7993>FGC71023>BY158114 friend is from the area south of Bergamo in the Bergamo province.

Indeed!

He was from the Varese province, as far as we know. I'm aware we have some distant relatives in the area and also in Lugano (Switzerland).
It's indeed very intriguing that your friend and a Czech man are alone in that subclade. My uncle's is still not too specific, of course, but most of the other people listed as A-7992 on the FTDNA project results chart are from Germany.

Romilius
06-20-2019, 09:28 AM
Indeed!

He was from the Varese province, as far as we know. I'm aware we have some distant relatives in the area and also in Lugano (Switzerland).
It's indeed very intriguing that your friend and a Czech man are alone in that subclade. My uncle's is still not too specific, of course, but most of the other people listed as A-7992 on the FTDNA project results chart are from Germany.

Interesting, because I know personally another person with A7992 not in FTDna projects who is the direct descendant in paternal line from the captains of Suvinate (direct vassals of the bishop who ruled over Suvinate), that was a village in Varese land. It would be interesting, because, probably, it is the next proof that the direct vassals of the bishop in that area (but also in many areas of Lombardy) were of local origin more than germanic origins.

Hope that your uncle's A7992 will be more defined by Big Y in the next future.

galon07
06-21-2019, 04:20 PM
Interesting, because I know personally another person with A7992 not in FTDna projects who is the direct descendant in paternal line from the captains of Suvinate (direct vassals of the bishop who ruled over Suvinate), that was a village in Varese land. It would be interesting, because, probably, it is the next proof that the direct vassals of the bishop in that area (but also in many areas of Lombardy) were of local origin more than germanic origins.

Hope that your uncle's A7992 will be more defined by Big Y in the next future.

That's definitely interesting. And this would make sense if put together with some other information and family stories that I know. One of them is that the name of the family (Galon) would derive from the Gaulish word for "rain". Yes, the use of surnames is quite "modern" in some sense, but who knows... I really think that A7992 could be "local" and not brought by the Lombards. I'm curious about the German A7992 on FTDNA and the Czech match to your friend, but as I don't know the precise regions they're from, no conclusion can be made.

Thanks, I hope we'll be able to order it soon!

Romilius
06-23-2019, 05:18 AM
That's definitely interesting. And this would make sense if put together with some other information and family stories that I know. One of them is that the name of the family (Galon) would derive from the Gaulish word for "rain". Yes, the use of surnames is quite "modern" in some sense, but who knows... I really think that A7992 could be "local" and not brought by the Lombards. I'm curious about the German A7992 on FTDNA and the Czech match to your friend, but as I don't know the precise regions they're from, no conclusion can be made.

Thanks, I hope we'll be able to order it soon!

No, wait: surnames are really a modern thing. In Italy they were born firstly in northern areas thanks to the appearance of municipalities. They had to gain taxes and, to do that duty, they had to be sure to let all people pay by identifying all of them in a sure way. Nothing celtic-like is in Italian surnames. Even so, nothing celtic remained in the area also during the Roman era: all names were romanized, so it is IMPOSSIBLE that something celtic survived the Roman period and the Germanic invasions who erased the tria nomina system of roman culture.

Galon is a form of Galloni/Galoni, that is linked to the late antiquity latin name Gallus (there is also a saint, Saint Gallus, whose cult was very widespread in early Middle Ages). However, it also could be linked to the latin term Gallonus, that was a sort of weapon/work instrument in rural areas. These hypothesys are also charged with the fact the surname Galoni in all its forms is very widespread in all northern Italy.

Grossvater
09-25-2019, 04:08 PM
After concentrating on the DNA of other family members, I decided to look at my own Y-DNA a little closer. I'm such a dilettante at all this and have been trying to get up to speed for years. During the last FTDNA sale, I saw that a R1b - M343&M269v2 Backbone SNP Pack test was available. Trying to get the most bang for my buck, I wasn't sure whether to upgrade to a Y-111 Test or go with the SNP pack. I didn't have time to consult those in the know on this forum, so I went with the SNP pack test, which was only ten dollars more than the on-sale 111 test.

Did I make the right decision?

From 23andMe, I already knew I was an R1b-U152.

My SNP pack test results came in yesterday and now I know I carry the Z36 mutation. So, howdy from Wyoming to you fellow Z36 guys!

Several years ago, I joined the U152 project. My kit on the chart has languished all this time as a lowly M269 away back in the unclassified section on page 6. Checking the chart this morning, I see I am already listed as a Z36. Will anything else be done with it or will it stay where it is? Do I need to notify an administrator of the changes?

Any suggestions for online resources that might help me get up to speed with the historic movements of this subclade? Thank you kindly.

Grossvater
10-23-2019, 09:56 PM
I had some more SNPs tested and have learned I am positive for BY1328, BY2151, and A7992. I'd love to know more about them if anyone knows anything.

galon07
12-16-2019, 06:41 PM
I had some more SNPs tested and have learned I am positive for BY1328, BY2151, and A7992. I'd love to know more about them if anyone knows anything.

Hi there! I've been testing my maternal uncle and he's also positive for BY 1328 > A7992 (that's the most I could get via SNP tests; apparently there's nowhere to go from here, just taking the Big Y 700). I've been reading about this specific subclade and according to Eupedia it's part of the Alpine Celtic branch of the U152. Do you know if you have any North Italian or Swiss ancestry? We're from Brazil, but my mother's paternal family came from Northern Italy (Lombardy region). However, my uncle has a lot of British matches and always gets some "English" in the calculators, which is interesting. Still according to Eupedia, the diffusion of the Z36 branch would have generated the ancient Belgae (Celtic people), the Gauls and the Cisalpine Celts.

35396

Grossvater
12-16-2019, 10:12 PM
Hi there! I've been testing my maternal uncle and he's also positive for BY 1328 > A7992 (that's the most I could get via SNP tests; apparently there's nowhere to go from here, just taking the Big Y 700). I've been reading about this specific subclade and according to Eupedia it's part of the Alpine Celtic branch of the U152. Do you know if you have any North Italian or Swiss ancestry? We're from Brazil, but my mother's paternal family came from Northern Italy (Lombardy region). However, my uncle has a lot of British matches and always gets some "English" in the calculators, which is interesting. Still according to Eupedia, the diffusion of the Z36 branch would have generated the ancient Belgae (Celtic people), the Gauls and the Cisalpine Celts.

35396

It seems that Northern Italy is a hotspot for A7992 men. I can only go back to about 1795 in my male line and it leads to northern Thuringia in Germany. I'm not the only Z36 guy here with roots in Thuringia. I suppose there are lots of historic events to explain my family's presence so far north away from the A7992 homelands. The medieval "Ostsiedlung" comes to mind.

Hodo Scariti
01-21-2020, 09:05 PM
Hello there,


I'm a R-A7992 from San Marino. My family migrated from today Lombardy to the Republic of San Marino in the late XII century and stayed there until today.

Hodo Scariti
01-31-2020, 04:19 PM
Some news about my line: from A7992, now it is BY158114.

I don't know what implications does it have.

Grossvater
02-03-2020, 04:15 PM
Some news about my line: from A7992, now it is BY158114.

I don't know what implications does it have.

Interesting. You must have done the Big Y test. I can't shed any light on your mutation but I'll be very interested to hear any interesting facts you learn if you're willing to share them. I hope to do the Big Y one of these days myself. The price seems to be coming down.

Hodo Scariti
02-03-2020, 08:07 PM
Interesting. You must have done the Big Y test. I can't shed any light on your mutation but I'll be very interested to hear any interesting facts you learn if you're willing to share them. I hope to do the Big Y one of these days myself. The price seems to be coming down.

Of course I'll share interesting facts... but for now I learnt nothing about that subgroup. I only know I share that with a single other person from Czech Republic. I don't know if our families are related at least at the migration period. My family has its origin from a feudal one in the North of Italy. They were direct vassals of the most important feminine Monastery in Northern Italy. The last fief renewal was 1249, after that date, only 30 years later, all the family members lost their fief and became citizen of the Municipality: probably, they wanted to try political career and only people from emerging bourgeoisie were supposed to do that. After the lost of the honorabiles vassalli title, the family members dispersed from the Municipality in the countryside. My line went in a village not enfeoffed were there were many local noble families tied to communal administration. There, a member married the daughter of a local petty noble and his direct nephew took the surname of that petty noble. After that they migrated to San Marino with the new surname. Probably they were among the very few families to have a surname in that age in San Marino: all the other families, also the most important ones, didn't have a surname.

Grossvater
02-15-2020, 04:48 AM
Of course I'll share interesting facts... but for now I learnt nothing about that subgroup. I only know I share that with a single other person from Czech Republic. I don't know if our families are related at least at the migration period. My family has its origin from a feudal one in the North of Italy. They were direct vassals of the most important feminine Monastery in Northern Italy. The last fief renewal was 1249, after that date, only 30 years later, all the family members lost their fief and became citizen of the Municipality: probably, they wanted to try political career and only people from emerging bourgeoisie were supposed to do that. After the lost of the honorabiles vassalli title, the family members dispersed from the Municipality in the countryside. My line went in a village not enfeoffed were there were many local noble families tied to communal administration. There, a member married the daughter of a local petty noble and his direct nephew took the surname of that petty noble. After that they migrated to San Marino with the new surname. Probably they were among the very few families to have a surname in that age in San Marino: all the other families, also the most important ones, didn't have a surname.

As an American, I think its pretty cool that you are able to trace your lineage so far back into the Middle Ages. I have a significant amount of British Isles ancestry, so it hasn't been too difficult to trace back that lineage, which starts with the earliest settlement of America. But other than the lines that connect to the old medieval Anglo-Norman aristocracy of England, most of my lines peter out in the 16th & 17th centuries. As far as my continental ancestry, I have a few Rhenish lines that go back to the late 17th century.

I'm rather curious...is being able to trace one's line to the 13th century a common thing for folks from San Marino? Reading about it and looking at pictures has convinced me it must be an astonishing little place!

Hodo Scariti
02-15-2020, 05:41 PM
As an American, I think its pretty cool that you are able to trace your lineage so far back into the Middle Ages. I have a significant amount of British Isles ancestry, so it hasn't been too difficult to trace back that lineage, which starts with the earliest settlement of America. But other than the lines that connect to the old medieval Anglo-Norman aristocracy of England, most of my lines peter out in the 16th & 17th centuries. As far as my continental ancestry, I have a few Rhenish lines that go back to the late 17th century.

I'm rather curious...is being able to trace one's line to the 13th century a common thing for folks from San Marino? Reading about it and looking at pictures has convinced me it must be an astonishing little place!

For people of Sammarinese ancestry, before 1600 is very difficult to distinguish lines, because surnames didn't exist at that era. For people of ancestry from above Emilia and Po river, it is even more simple if your ancestor migrated to the Republic of San Marino, because your family would have been one of the few to have a surname.

galon07
08-15-2020, 05:36 AM
Just sharing something that could be interesting. Did you guys know this page (https://phylogeographer.com/scripts/heatmap.php)?

38986

This would be a heatmap for A7993(2).

Grossvater
08-16-2020, 04:11 AM
Just sharing something that could be interesting. Did you guys know this page (https://phylogeographer.com/scripts/heatmap.php)?

38986

This would be a heatmap for A7993(2).

Interesting map. I am left wondering how the Shetland Islands of all places came to be a hot spot for A7992. I was under the impression that it's population was descended from Vikings.

Cascio
08-16-2020, 07:21 AM
It's very difficult to explain.

galon07
08-20-2020, 08:39 PM
Yes, that's curious, and I agree that it's not it's not that easy to explain. It's hard to know if that would indicate A7992 is connected to the Vikings, therefore Germanic tribes, or if that hot spot on Shetland Islands would suggest a reminiscent Celtic trace from earlier times or even a late Scottish influence.

Marko47
09-21-2020, 07:51 PM
Hey everyone! A Z36er here by way of the region of Eastern Thrace/ Constantinople region of Turkey. My great grandfather identified as Greek and it was a bit surprising to learn of this seemingly out of place subclade for the region where he was from. I recently have had some people suggest a possible Crusader link to the Latin Empire. Autosomally, my father and I sometimes get Irish/Scottish/Welsh results, French, and Scandinavian. I don't have significant ydna matches, but my 12 marker matches tend to be from England, France, and the US. Some of the surnames from my exact 12 marker matches can also be found towards the bottom of my autosomal dna match lists. Is there any other possible explanation besides a Norman, Gallo-Roman origin?

Grossvater
09-21-2020, 09:10 PM
Hey everyone! A Z36er here by way of the region of Eastern Thrace/ Constantinople region of Turkey. My great grandfather identified as Greek and it was a bit surprising to learn of this seemingly out of place subclade for the region where he was from. I recently have had some people suggest a possible Crusader link to the Latin Empire. Autosomally, my father and I sometimes get Irish/Scottish/Welsh results, French, and Scandinavian. I don't have significant ydna matches, but my 12 marker matches tend to be from England, France, and the US. Some of the surnames from my exact 12 marker matches can also be found towards the bottom of my autosomal dna match lists. Is there any other possible explanation besides a Norman, Gallo-Roman origin?

Hi Marko. Welcome to the Z36 club! I was quite interested to see that you are Z36 considering where your family came from. Have you completely ruled out a Galatian connection?

Marko47
09-22-2020, 12:38 AM
You know what, I thought it was the Galatians for several weeks but I now think that it's unlikely. I don't believe I would have any traces of Galatians in my autosomal ethnicity estimates or match list if the source were from ancient times. There's a moderator here who has R-U152 and is from central Anatolia and he told me that it is pretty much impossible to have any modern dna values from the Galatians in modern Greeks or Turks. I believe the source is much more recent like the crusader states in around Istanbul, several Greek islands like Cyprus and Rhodes, as well as Antioch near Syria. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankokratia