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Jean M
09-09-2016, 11:37 AM
Oleg Balanovsky's paper to be read at ASHG 2016 in October looks like it could be helpful:

Y-chromosomal sequencing and screening reveal both stability and migrations in North Eurasian populations.


Y-chromosomal markers exhibit the highest interpopulation diversity in the genome and thus form one of the most informative tools for tracing population history. However, their information value depends on discovering SNPs which subdivide haplogroups with broad geographic distribution into branches revealing fine population structure. Progress in such discoveries has recently moved from a slow linear phase to a rapid exponential phase due to NGS.

We applied this approach to the Y-chromosomal pool of North Eurasian populations and concentrated on haplogroups C, G1, G2, N1b, N1c, and R1b. We sequenced 181 Y-chromosomes (capturing 11 Mb from each sample), developed the NGSConv software for calling Y-chromosomal SNPs, and identified roughly 2,500 SNPs, most of which were new. Then we constructed phylogenetic trees and dated dozens of their branches using our estimates of the mutation rate. The last – but not the least – step included screening branch-defining SNPs in the entire Biobank of indigenous North Eurasian populations (led by prof. Elena Balanovska), which includes 26,000 samples from 260 populations. This screening resulted in frequency distribution maps of 29 branches of haplogroups R1b and C, thus increasing the phylogenetic resolution by an order of magnitude compared to the two initial haplogroups.

For haplogroup R1b, we identified a previously unstudied “eastern” branch, R1b-GG400, found in East Europeans and West Asians and forming a brother clade to the “western” branch R1b-L51 found in West Europeans. The ancient samples from the Yamnaya archaeological culture are located on this eastern branch, showing that the paternal descendants of the Yamnaya population – in contrast to the published autosomal findings - still live in the Pontic steppe and were not an important source of paternal lineages in present-day West Europeans.

https://ep70.eventpilot.us/web/page.php?page=IntHtml&project=ASHG16&id=160121213

Jean M
09-09-2016, 12:14 PM
The SNP GG400 is not on Y-Full, but I'm guessing there will be an equivalent. Any ideas?

My notes say that CTS1078/Z2103, Z2105 is found notably in Armenians and also found in Greece, Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, and Russia and is Polish Project L23EE Type. Same haplotype as L23EE type occurs in Pakistan and India. And Ossetian R1b looks to be Z2105.

Or could GG400 be a subclade?

Tomenable
09-09-2016, 12:36 PM
Polish Project L23EE Type.

R1b-L23 EE Type = L23>Z2103>Y5587

Is this new GG400 equivalent to Y5587 ?

Tomenable
09-09-2016, 12:44 PM
No it can't be because it must be L23>GG400 if it is a brother clade to L51.

ffoucart
09-09-2016, 12:47 PM
If it's a brother clade of L51, it's more something like Z2103 than its subclades.

Tomenable
09-09-2016, 12:52 PM
If it's a brother clade of L51, it's more something like Z2103 than its subclades.

Yes.

Apart from L23>Z2103>Y5587 there is also quite a lot of basal or unresolved L23* (xZ2103) in Poland.

So maybe some of this L23* will now be assigned to a new clade L23>GG400.

And maybe Yamnaya L23(xZ2103) was also GG400+.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-09-2016, 12:58 PM
Yes.

Apart from L23>Z2103>Y5587 there is also quite a lot of basal or unresolved L23* (xZ2103) in Poland.

So maybe some of this L23* will now be assigned to a new clade L23>GG400.

And maybe Yamnaya L23(xZ2103) was also GG400+.

There is also a southern European / WA clade, which is M269 x L23 (= PF 7558), ie parallel to L23

Joe B
09-09-2016, 03:51 PM
From their description, "new SNP" GG400 is either phylogenetically equivalent to Z2103 or a renaming of one of the known SNPs at the R1b-Z2103 level. Get the position numbers and we'll know.

For haplogroup R1b, we identified a previously unstudied “eastern” branch, R1b-GG400, found in East Europeans and West Asians and forming a brother clade to the “western” branch R1b-L51 found in West Europeans. The ancient samples from the Yamnaya archaeological culture are located on this eastern branch, showing that the paternal descendants of the Yamnaya population – in contrast to the published autosomal findings - still live in the Pontic steppe and were not an important source of paternal lineages in present-day West Europeans.
Here is the link to the current R1b Basal Subclades Phylogenetic Trees. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/results
I'm rather surprised by the "previously unstudied" comment. "Little studied" would be true.

smal
09-09-2016, 04:16 PM
I'm rather surprised by the "previously unstudied" comment. "Little studied" would be true.

Joe, if something is not published in a peer-review scientific journal this means it is unknown for science yet.

Megalophias
09-09-2016, 05:55 PM
The Z2103 clade was identified, but not discussed, in Hallast et al 2015 (and Batini et al 2015 using the same data), and in Karmin et al 2015, where it is called R1b11 - Balanovsky was actually a co-author on the latter. Hopefully it is not just Z2103, but I am not holding my breath. By "not studied" he may just mean it has not been tested for in a proper survey with representative samples of many populations.

Joe B
09-09-2016, 06:37 PM
Joe, if something is not published in a peer-review scientific journal this means it is unknown for science yet.

The Z2103 clade was identified, but not discussed, in Hallast et al 2015 (and Batini et al 2015 using the same data), and in Karmin et al 2015, where it is called R1b11 - Balanovsky was actually a co-author on the latter. Hopefully it is not just Z2103, but I am not holding my breath. By "not studied" he may just mean it has not been tested for in a proper survey with representative samples of many populations.smal, I know you know the literature. Megalophias points out how sparse the published data is for R1b-Z2103.
The Lucotte Ht35 paper was on my mind. Can't vouch for the International Journal of Anthropology peer-review process.
Ht35 Y-Chromosome Haplotype in Europe.
Source: International Journal of Anthropology . Jan-Mar2013, Vol. 28 Issue 1, p1-12. 12p.
Author(s): Lucotte G.; Diéterlen F.; Hrechdakian P.

It's a very good thing to have this new Balanovsky paper. That's quite a prestigious group of authors. Really need to know what SNP GG400 is to determine if it's on the Z2103 level or downstream.

Dewsloth
09-09-2016, 06:59 PM
It's a very good thing to have this new Balanovsky paper. That's quite a prestigious group of authors. Really need to know what SNP GG400 is to determine if it's on the Z2103 level or downstream.

Anyone going to Vancouver for the October presentation?

smal
09-09-2016, 07:15 PM
I have an information from one of the authors of this abstract. GG400 is an equivalent of Z2103.

Heber
09-13-2016, 12:16 PM
For haplogroup R1b, we identified a previously unstudied “eastern” branch, R1b-GG400, found in East Europeans and West Asians and forming a brother clade to the “western” branch R1b-L51 found in West Europeans. The ancient samples from the Yamnaya archaeological culture are located on this eastern branch, showing that the paternal descendants of the Yamnaya population – in contrast to the published autosomal findings - still live in the Pontic steppe and were not an important source of paternal lineages in present-day West Europeans.


A few comments on the ASHG papers which appear interesting.

If the above is correct then he is saying that Yamnaya is not Y ancestral to present-day West Europeans.

From the anticipated (soon) Baltic aDNA paper, David appears to think that results will be mainly Corded Ware and R1a, no R1b and no Bell beaker.


So are we seeing a trend R1a is Corded Ware, R1b is Bell Beaker?
R1a from the East and North, R1b from the South and West.



From the Mathieson Balkans paper, David is suggesting that R1b will be found in the Balkans and is linked to the Villabruna R1b in Italy.

If this is correct then are we seeing R1b in the Balkans Neolithic (Bulgaria) in proximity to the Caucasus.

This raises again the issue of Maikop, Varna, Vinca, Kuban, CT and Kura Araxes (where we already have R1b).


Is this a signal that the forth strand of European Ancestry is the vector of R1b from the South going North via Georgia, Kura Araxes, Azov, Kuban, Maikop, Yamnaya and going West from the Caucasus carrying L51 to Iberia in time for the expansion of Bell Beaker. Too early to tell but interesting none the less.

http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/fourth-strand-of-european-ancestry-originated-with-hunter-gatherers-isolated-by-ice-age


Fourth strand’ of European ancestry originated with hunter-gatherers isolated by Ice Age
Populations of hunter-gatherers weathered Ice Age in apparent isolation in Caucasus mountain region for millennia, later mixing with other ancestral populations, from which emerged the Yamnaya culture that would bring this Caucasus hunter-gatherer lineage to Western Europe.
Other interesting ASHG papers I noted the Ancestry paper identified continuity in Ireland and Iberia and the Irish DNA Atlas will present their results on the Irish Travellers (autosomal) DNA project. I am working on a parallel project on Y DNA and Surnames and hope to be able to discuss it at GGI2016.

R.Rocca
09-13-2016, 02:12 PM
There is nothing to see here. The paper did not include ancient DNA samples and the "new" SNP is a Z2103 equivalent. All opinions made by this paper are based on the already known EASTERN-MOST Yamnaya samples from prior studies. The only value will be from seeing what other SNPs they've found in the 181 modern samples they've collected.

ffoucart
09-13-2016, 02:24 PM
Read more carefully: the tested samples are from Eastern Yamna, not Western Yamna. And they have a brother subclade of L51. It's only logical to suspect that L51 will be found in Western Yamna (as David already wrote it many times). And he already answered to a Balkan origin (with reference to aDNA), read his blog.

In fact, the more results we have, the more likely is a Western Yamna origin for L51.

Shaikorth
09-21-2016, 07:46 AM
If (against all expectations) the new SNP isn't Z2103-related, it should be rare enough to be irrelevant since it has not shown up before.

Mis
03-23-2017, 08:15 PM
R1-GG625 ?
https://translate.google.pl/translate?hl=pl&sl=fr&u=http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/&prev=search

Mis
04-06-2017, 09:53 AM
if KMS75 = GG625