PDA

View Full Version : Dienekes' Anthropology (Genetics) and Dodecad Project Thread



Humanist
08-08-2012, 07:22 PM
fastIBD analysis of several Jewish and non-Jewish groups (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/fastibd-analysis-of-several-jewish-and.html)

Dienekes:

fastIBD identifies segments of relatively recent origin that are shared by individuals. These results should not be construed as measures of overall genetic similarity or origins. Rather, they suggest which populations have exchanged genes in the relative recent past, say, the last two thousand years or so.

A note from Dienekes, from a previous fastIBD run (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/03/fastibd-analysis-of-italybalkansanatoli.html):


Remember that the tree groups similar populations together, and for each row in the matrix, the red end of the spectrum indicates lots of IBD sharing, and the blue end low IBD sharing.

My neck of the woods, with my group in red, below, with names of populations added (disregard the colors to the immediate right of the population names). The full heatmap can be found here (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-N_VCcrkXQA0/UCJQJKgFa4I/AAAAAAAAFPA/m_Zi4nxnNGY/s1600/heatmap.png), on Dienekes' site.


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/heatmap.jpg

DMXX
08-08-2012, 07:36 PM
I did a double-take initially at seeing the Iranian pairing with Syrians on the fastIBS heatmap.

As we've discussed before elsewhere, the Behar Iranian cohort generally exhibits greater Southwest Asian ADMIXTURE component values than Dodecad or Eurogenes Iranians, as well as significant (>2%, greater than 10% in some samples) African admixture (refer to Zack Ajmal's Harappa Project coverage (http://www.harappadna.org/2011/03/iranians/)). These results are consistent with their origins somewhere further south, such as Khuzestan, Hormozgan and other Persian Gulf provinces in Iran.

As Syrians also present values of that quality, it isn't actually too surprising to see the Behar Iranians pairing with them instead of Kurds, Anatolian Turks or even Armenians.

DMXX
08-13-2012, 01:55 PM
Dienekes has posted a slew of fastIBD analyses for his participants:


fastIBD analysis of Africans and African Americans (http://dodecad.blogspot.in/2012/08/fastibd-analysis-of-africans-and.html)
fastIBD analysis of East/Central Eurasians and select West Eurasians (http://dodecad.blogspot.in/2012/08/fastibd-analysis-of-eastcentral.html)
fastIBD analysis of Jewish and some non-Jewish populations (http://dodecad.blogspot.in/2012/08/fastibd-analysis-of-jewish-and-some-non.html)


As demonstrated in the second entry, the cM values in and of themselves are not particularly useful, given regional shared ancestries (i.e. West vs. East Eurasian) dictate the overall picture. Comparative analysis of the results, be it between individuals or population averages, will give us a much better indication of the demic processes that took place in each.

For example, the Dodecad Iranians compared with the Yunusbayev et al. Kurds (Spoiler below) presents us with the following:


The Yunusbayev Kurds are a textbook example of a bottleneck effect through their high intra-population IBD sharing, which matches the historical context to which they were forced into Central Asia by Persia's Qajar dynasty.
Moreover, their ancestral connection to East Anatolia has been preserved by uniformly higher IBD sharing with Anatolian Turks compared with the Dodecad Iranian average.
Additionally the Dodecad Iranians have slightly larger IBD sharing values with the Turkmen and Uzbeks, in line with geography.
Intriguingly, both Dodecad Iranians and Kurds have equivalent IBD scores with North-Central Asian/Siberian populations (i.e. Selkup, Altai, Yukaghir) but the Dodecad Iranians match East Asian proper populations better (i.e. Chinese_D, Cambodians, Daur)
Otherwise, both Kurds and Iranians are comparable with one another implying (at the very least) both populations stem from the same West Asian population that underwent similar demic phenomena over the millennia


http://i48.tinypic.com/2ljj877.png

http://i45.tinypic.com/2466o02.png




Iranian_D Kurds_Y
Altai 5 4.5
Balkars_Y 17.9 18.5
Belorussian 14.2 13.6
Buryat 3.2 2.7
Cambodians 1.7 1.1
CDX30 0.7 0.9
CHB30 0.8 0.7
CHD30 0.7 0.6
Chinese_D 1.1 0.9
Chukchi_11 1.2 0.7
Chuvashs 10.6 12.1
Dai 0.9 0.7
Daur 2.1 1.4
Dolgan 3.7 4
Evenk_15 2.3 2
FIN30 11.8 12.3
Finnish_D 11.5 12.5
Han 0.8 0.7
Hazara 8.4 9.7
Hezhen 1.7 0.9
Iranian_D 20.1 20.9
Japanese 0.9 0.7
Japanese_D 0.6 0.3
JPT30 0.8 0.5
KHV30 1.2 0.7
Korean_D 0.7 0.7
Koryak_15 0.8 1
Kumyks_Y 17.2 19.4
Kurds_Y 20.9 84.1
Kyrgyz_Bishkek 5 5.1
Miaozu 0.7 0.5
Mongol 4 3.5
Mongola 2 2.2
Mordovians_Y 12.7 12.9
Naxi 1.1 0.7
Nganassan_12 2.1 1.3
Nogais_Y 14 14.3
Oroqen 1.3 1
Russian 12.9 13.3
Russian_D 13.3 13.9
Selkup 4.7 5.1
She 1.1 0.4
Tu 2.1 1.6
Tujia 1 0.6
Turkish_Aydin 16 17.1
Turkish_Cypriot 17.7 19.9
Turkish_D 17.8 21.2
Turkish_Istanbu 18.1 21.4
Turkish_Kayseri 17.5 21.4
Turkmens_Y 16.5 15.4
Turks 17.8 20.9
Tuva 3.5 2.9
Ukrainian_D 14.7 13.8
Ukranians_Y 14.4 14
Uygur 8.9 8.6
Uzbeks 10.4 9.5
Xibo 2.4 2
Yakut 2.5 2.4
Yizu 0.9 0.6
Yukagir 4.8 5.2



This is, however, in the context of overall ethnic/national ancestry and individual results must be considered. My own values (greater matching of Ukrainians, Kurds, Turkmen, Uzbeks specifically) match features of my background that seem to differentiate me from the average Iranian.

J Man
10-21-2012, 10:49 PM
Dienekes may have picked up the ancient ''Amerindian'' component in ADMIXTURE at K=4 that Patterson et al. (2012) recently found in modern Europeans.

http://dodecad.blogspot.ca/2012/10/globe4-calculator.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/10/ancient-european-dna-assessment-with.html


Here are my own results from the 'globe4' calculator.

90.08% European
1.13% Asian
0.22% African
8.57% Amerindian

AJL
10-25-2012, 05:13 AM
Dienekes may have picked up the ancient ''Amerindian'' component in ADMIXTURE at K=4 that Patterson et al. (2012) recently found in modern Europeans.

http://dodecad.blogspot.ca/2012/10/globe4-calculator.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/10/ancient-european-dna-assessment-with.html


Here are my own results from the 'globe4' calculator.

90.08% European
1.13% Asian
0.22% African
8.57% Amerindian

Strangely I end up more European than you (though also more Asian and African). Perhaps this Amerindian in part reflects your Finnish heritage?

92.46% European
1.56% Asian
0.63% African
5.36% Amerindian

In any case, my guess is globe4 is probably not the best measure for Near Eastern ancestry.

DMXX
10-26-2012, 08:22 AM
New results from Dienekes' globe10 calculator (http://dodecad.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/globe10-calculator.html), which is an extension of globe4 (http://dodecad.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/globe4-calculator.html) and designed to pick up the Amerindian-type subset of Europeans.

My results, shown in conjunction with relevant related populations:



Humata Irn_D Irn(S?) Kurd_D Kurds_Y
Amerindian 0.2 0.4 0.6 0.8 0.6
West Asian 52.2 55 55.5 56.3 56.3
Australasian 0.5 0.2 0.3 0.3 0.3
Paleo-African 0 0 0.2 0.1 0.1
Neo-African 0.4 0.3 1.1 0 0
Siberian 2.9 2.4 0.8 1 0.5
Southern 22.4 24.1 25.2 26.8 25.7
East Asian 1.7 0.7 0.4 0.4 0.4
Atlantic-Baltic 12.2 10.1 7.6 9.4 11
South Asian 7.6 6.9 8.4 5 5


Same trends as usual; less SW/Asian and W Asian, more South Asian, Siberian+East Asian and Atlantic-Baltic/N Euro than the average Iranian cohort.

One interesting observation is that, component wise in this run, I'd be almost parallel with the Pathans of Pakistan if the Southern and S Asian values were swapped round. Reminds me of Dienekes' old post concerning the Indo-Iranian impact in that broader region.

AJL
10-26-2012, 11:08 PM
Mine:

0.52 Amerindian
15.96 West Asian
0.02 Australasian
0.00 Palaeo-African
0.27 Neo-African
1.57 Siberian
23.35 Southern
0.04 East Asian
56.90 Atlantic-Baltic
1.36 South Asian

Most similar to Bulgarians, North Italians, Tuscans.

DMXX
10-27-2012, 02:58 PM
Is the Siberian signal one you've noticed before, AJL?

It seems West Eurasians generally have Siberian > East Asian. Likely due to continuous interactions between West Eurasia<->Siberia.

AJL
10-28-2012, 03:07 PM
Is the Siberian signal one you've noticed before, AJL?

It seems West Eurasians generally have Siberian > East Asian. Likely due to continuous interactions between West Eurasia<->Siberia.

Yes, in my case it seems to be coming from both my paternal and maternal sides, though more so from my father. I have an 8-cM segment with a Kazakh guy from my father's mother's side, probably attached to her grandfather's line from Syria.

On my mother's side, my HLA factors are most common among Swedish Saami, and she has a little Asian in her Ancestry Painting that probably reflects this northern component. I can't entirely rule out some remote Native American ancestry for her from before 1800, but she is still within normal ranges for someone with ancestry from Northern Europe.

J Man
10-28-2012, 11:28 PM
Strangely I end up more European than you (though also more Asian and African). Perhaps this Amerindian in part reflects your Finnish heritage?

92.46% European
1.56% Asian
0.63% African
5.36% Amerindian

In any case, my guess is globe4 is probably not the best measure for Near Eastern ancestry.


Yes my higher Amerindian comes from the fact that I have some recent Finnish ancestry I believe. Here are my 'globe10' scores below.

1.59% Amerindian
13.18% West_Asian
0.61% Australasian
0.16% Palaeo_African
0.11% Neo_African
2.55% Siberian
12.86% Southern
0.10% East_Asian
68.13% Atlantic_Baltic
0.73% South_Asian


I wonder if the Amerindian score is noise?

AJL
10-28-2012, 11:54 PM
Probably not noise, if Finns in general have it, but rather a non-Amerind northern component.

J Man
10-29-2012, 12:14 AM
^Yes my Siberian score comes mostly from my Finn side as well. Finns do not seem to score very high in the Amerindian component though on 'globe10'.

J Man
10-31-2012, 02:46 AM
Dienekes has released a new globe13 calculator. Rumour has it that he will soon be releasing Dodecad Project members results in this new analysis as well. It is also interesting to note that yet again the Mesolithic and Neolithic hunter-gatherer samples show majority membership in the North_European component while Oetzi and the Swedish TRB farmer Gok4 show majority membership in the Mediterranean component. Here are a few links and then my own results from the calculator below.

http://dodecad.blogspot.ca/2012/10/globe13-calculator.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/10/assessment-of-ancient-european-dna-with.html

1.34% Siberian
1.15% Amerindian
0.10% West_African
0.13% Palaeo_African
6.55% Southwest_Asian
0.20% East_Asian
28.09% Mediterranean
0.58% Australasian
0.91% Arctic
10.99% West_Asian
49.92% North_European
0.04% South_Asian
0.00% East_African

AJL
10-31-2012, 03:17 PM
0.60% Siberian
0.15% Amerindian
0.10% West_African
0.00% Palaeo_African
11.80% Southwest_Asian
0.04% East_Asian
35.57% Mediterranean
0.02% Australasian
1.26% Arctic
13.29% West_Asian
35.64% North_European
1.04% South_Asian
0.40% East_African

DMXX
10-31-2012, 09:05 PM
1.98% Siberian
0.01% Amerindian
0.34% West_African
0.00% Palaeo_African
16.42% Southwest_Asian
1.50% East_Asian
17.77% Mediterranean
0.47% Australasian
1.44% Arctic
45.43% West_Asian
7.82% North_European
6.77% South_Asian
0.06% East_African

Calamus
11-01-2012, 10:04 AM
Globe13 results:

Me:
0.84% Siberian
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% West_African
0.00% Palaeo_African
0.95% Southwest_Asian
0.00% East_Asian
27.12% Mediterranean
1.01% Australasian
0.92% Arctic
3.45% West_Asian
65.66% North_European
0.05% South_Asian
0.00% East_African

My dad:
0.46% Siberian
0.45% Amerindian
0.00% West_African
0.00% Palaeo_African
0.41% Southwest_Asian
0.24% East_Asian
29.67% Mediterranean
1.01% Australasian
0.94% Arctic
4.13% West_Asian
62.66% North_European
0.02% South_Asian
0.00% East_African

My mom:
0.69% Siberian
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% West_African
0.04% Palaeo_African
1.73% Southwest_Asian
0.01% East_Asian
25.97% Mediterranean
0.88% Australasian
0.93% Arctic
5.08% West_Asian
64.62% North_European
0.04% South_Asian
0.00% East_African

ZephyrousMandaru
11-03-2012, 06:42 AM
Globe4

92.69% European
5.38% Asian
1.93% African
0.01% Amerindian

Globe10

0.00% Amerindian
55.29% West_Asian
0.84% Australasian
0.27% Palaeo_African
0.00% Neo_African
0.29% Siberian
35.59% Southern
0.01% East_Asian
7.56% Atlantic_Baltic
0.14% South_Asian

Globe13

0.02% Siberian
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% West_African
0.26% Palaeo_African
24.50% Southwest_Asian
0.00% East_Asian
27.47% Mediterranean
0.71% Australasian
0.63% Arctic
46.34% West_Asian
0.00% North_European
0.07% South_Asian
0.00% East_African

Palisto
11-04-2012, 04:30 PM
I made some maps and trees of Dodecad Globe13.

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2012/11/biogeographical-ancestry-using-dodecad.html

J Man
11-05-2012, 07:08 PM
Very cool work there Palisto! My results actually make sense given my mixed autosomal ancestry. I am DOD018 and I get Hungarians as my best population match. My mixture of northwest, northeast and south/southeast European ancestry usually has me landing somewhere in around Hungary/Central Europe when it comes to looking at my autosomal genetics. I get Russian_B for 56.9% and Tuscan for 43.1%. I would say these make sense given my known mixed ancestral background. My numbers of Lat 49.44 and Lon 14.4 put me in or close to the Czech Republic I think.

DMXX
11-05-2012, 09:00 PM
As with most of these Mixed Population programs, Palisto's one is useful for confirming biogeographical drag in particular directions if admixture from a given population is highly improbable.

For example, with my own results, the ~93% Iranian ~7% Aleut combination supports my having a genetic pull towards the NE towards Central Asia relative to other Iranians. I most likely don't have any Alaskan in me.

J Man
11-05-2012, 11:13 PM
As with most of these Mixed Population programs, Palisto's one is useful for confirming biogeographical drag in particular directions if admixture from a given population is highly improbable.

For example, with my own results, the ~93% Iranian ~7% Aleut combination supports my having a genetic pull towards the NE towards Central Asia relative to other Iranians. I most likely don't have any Alaskan in me.

Yes exactly all very true.

Humanist
11-08-2012, 06:42 PM
I made some maps and trees of Dodecad Globe13.

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2012/11/biogeographical-ancestry-using-dodecad.html

Thanks for doing this. Posted something on another forum, but noticed I left out one Assyrian. And it appears you have since updated the map to include the Iraqi Arab from Baghdad.

Assyrians in purple. Iraqi Mandaeans (N=2) in purple without black dot. Iraqi Arab from Baghdad is denoted by the purple thumbtack.

DOD028 is my uncle. On 23andMe he is one of the few Assyrians with a bit of "Asian." This, and the fact that Fst distances were used in calculating the positions (?), may explain, at least in part, why he is located where he is.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Palisto_update_map.jpg


EDIT: Actually, it is not the "Asian." It is more likely the fact that he has a globe13 "West Asian" value of 50.2 and a "Southwest Asian" value of 22.4.

I recall, when I ran my father's data in a prior analysis, he and his brother (DOD028), had more than negligible differences. I observed the same for my brother and I. For this reason, I believe that it is best to average the values of siblings (where possible) when attempting to identify one's ancestral (geographical) roots. This would help minimize the effects of recombination on these types of analyses when we are dealing with a single individual.

DMXX
11-08-2012, 07:19 PM
Palisto, I can't find myself (DOD010) on your map. Was I excluded for any reason, or are the other Iranians masking my position?

Palisto
11-09-2012, 02:39 AM
Palisto, I can't find myself (DOD010) on your map. Was I excluded for any reason, or are the other Iranians masking my position?

Sorry, I forgot to add you. You are now in the updated version.


Thanks for doing this. Posted something on another forum, but noticed I left out one Assyrian. And it appears you have since updated the map to include the Iraqi Arab from Baghdad.

You are welcome. Yes, I updated it.



Assyrians in purple. Iraqi Mandaeans (N=2) in purple without black dot. Iraqi Arab from Baghdad is denoted by the purple thumbtack.

DOD028 is my uncle. On 23andMe he is one of the few Assyrians with a bit of "Asian." This, and the fact that Fst distances were used in calculating the positions (?), may explain, at least in part, why he is located where he is.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Palisto_update_map.jpg


EDIT: Actually, it is not the "Asian." It is more likely the fact that he has a globe13 "West Asian" value of 50.2 and a "Southwest Asian" value of 22.4.

I recall, when I ran my father's data in a prior analysis, he and his brother (DOD028), had more than negligible differences. I observed the same for my brother and I. For this reason, I believe that it is best to average the values of siblings (where possible) when attempting to identify one's ancestral (geographical) roots. This would help minimize the effects of recombination on these types of analyses when we are dealing with a single individual.

To average out the results of siblings might be a good idea but as far as I know there only unrelated people in Dodecad project (very few exeptions).
Your uncle DOD028 got this position because of his globe13 results. I used weighted Euclidean distances based on Fst values but even with regular Euclidean distances he would end up closer to Armenians.

For each, I just posted the TOP1 match, here are his results in detail, so you can have a better idea.

TOP20 (all)


# ID Ethnicity/N Normal Distance Adjusted Distance
1 DOD028 Assyrian (Nestorian) 0 0
2 Armenians_15_Y Yunusbayev et al. 3.064310689 2.884415285
3 DOD027 Assyrian (Nestorian) 3.246536616 2.965541788
4 DOD221 Armenian 3.201562119 3.019017255
5 DOD914 Armenian 3.154362059 3.050641522
6 Azerbaijan_Jews Behar et al. 3.906404997 3.547682053
7 DOD896 Armenian 3.950949253 3.61081138
8 DOD439 Armenian 3.983716857 3.670665118
9 DOD830 Armenian 4.003748244 3.733416431
10 DOD134 Assyrian (Nestorian) 4.162931659 3.751852614
11 DOD037 Assyrian (Nestorian-Chaldean-Mix) 4.233202098 3.850572679
12 DOD922 Armenian 4.246174749 3.916799818
13 Assyrian_D Dodecad 4.487761134 4.019279226
14 Armenian_D Dodecad 4.332435804 4.146461195
15 DOD921 Armenian 4.392038251 4.173116558
16 DOD040 Assyrian (Chaldean) 4.634652091 4.228418557
17 Georgia_Jews Behar et al. 4.859012245 4.332297593
18 DOD920 Armenian 4.860041152 4.356323313
19 DOD796 Armenian (Melik) 4.694677838 4.365514909
20 DPD012 Assyrian 4.889785271 4.43263338

TOP10 (reference populations only)


# ID Normal Distance Adjusted Distance
1 Armenians_15_Y 3.1 2.8
2 Azerbaijan_Jews 3.9 3.5
3 Armenian_D 4.3 4.0
4 Assyrian_D 4.5 4.0
5 Georgia_Jews 4.9 4.3
6 Armenians 5.4 5.0
7 Uzbekistan_Jews 7.8 6.9
8 Iranian_Jews 8.6 7.8
9 Kurd_D 8.8 8.0
10 Kurds_Y 9.5 8.5

OracleTOP20 combinations (reference populations only)


# Dist Pop1 %Pop1 Pop2 %Pop2 latitude longitude
1 1.4268 Assyrian_D 78.7% Georgians 21.3% 37.50 43.50
2 1.4373 Assyrian_D 73.8% Georgian_D 26.2% 37.76 43.58
3 1.5028 Iranian_Jews 64.9% Georgians 35.1%
4 1.7412 Assyrian_D 79.2% Abhkasians_Y 20.8% 37.74 42.70
5 1.7912 Iraq_Jews 53.5% Georgian_D 46.5% 36.81 44.59
6 1.7958 Azerbaijan_Jews 77.5% Georgian_D 22.5%
7 1.8988 Azerbaijan_Jews 82.1% Georgians 17.9%
8 2.0764 Azerbaijan_Jews 82.6% Abhkasians_Y 17.4%
9 2.0957 Georgians 75.0% Yemen_Jews 25.0%
10 2.1855 Georgia_Jews 78.2% Georgians 21.8%
11 2.1937 Iraq_Jews 60.4% Abhkasians_Y 39.6% 36.68 43.06
12 2.2066 Armenians 63.0% Iranian_Jews 37.0%
13 2.3203 Iranian_Jews 58.8% Georgian_D 41.2%
14 2.3806 Armenians_15_Y 81.1% Iranian_Jews 18.9%
15 2.5591 Georgia_Jews 74.0% Georgian_D 26.0%
16 2.6434 Armenians_15_Y 86.8% Iraq_Jews 13.2% 38.62 44.13
17 2.6626 Armenians_15_Y 70.4% Assyrian_D 29.6% 38.61 43.80
18 2.6671 Georgians 64.8% Samaritan_All 35.2% 38.37 41.44
19 2.6818 Iranian_Jews 65.6% Abhkasians_Y 34.4%
20 2.7321 Armenians_15_Y 66.8% Azerbaijan_Jews 33.2%

To me it seems like Nestorians (purple) are more Anatolian, Syriac Orthodox (green) are more Syrian, and Chaldeans (red) are in between. At least this trend can be seen for Assyrians in Globe13.

265

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=212724382842737328910.0004ce06e11c9aa38165 5&msa=0&ll=37.256566,45.406494&spn=4.231873,7.536621

Humanist
11-09-2012, 03:52 AM
To me it seems like Nestorians (purple) are more Anatolian, Syriac Orthodox (green) are more Syrian, and Chaldeans (red) are in between. At least this trend can be seen for Assyrians in Globe13.

Yeah, relatively speaking, that would be correct. However, Iraqi Mandaeans are from southern Iraq, and they have lived there for a very long time. So long a period, that Mandaic has more in common with the long extinct dialect of the Babylonian Talmud, Babylonian Jewish Aramaic, than it does vernacular Syriac ("Sureth"). So, I still believe there is a chance that these positions may be too far north. At least, that is, if we are interested in our very ancient roots. One of Polako's SPA runs placed us near Babylon, and the Mandaeans near Uruk (?).

I calculated median values for the groups as well. This is how I separated the samples:
CHALDEAN CATHOLIC
DOD836 (I think)
DOD095

NESTORIAN
DOD026
DOD243
DOD163
DOD027
DPD012
DOD134
DOD028

ORTHODOX
DOD599
DOD135
DOD386


DOD634 <-- I am not sure of this individual's church affiliation.
DPD024 <-- Not one of the major churches. Not sure what the affiliation is.
DOD134 <-- My paternal uncle and maternal grandmother are included.
DOD040 <-- Mixed (1/4 Armenian).
DOD037 <-- Mixed (Nestorian/Chaldean Catholic) - Catholic paternal uncle is included.


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/median_asy_man.jpg


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/map_spots.jpg

amerinese
11-09-2012, 06:48 AM
My "globe" series of DIYDodecad results:

Globe4

----------------------------
FINAL ADMIXTURE PROPORTIONS:
----------------------------

70.56% European
20.79% Asian
0.00% African
8.65% Amerindian

Globe10

----------------------------
FINAL ADMIXTURE PROPORTIONS:
----------------------------

1.90% Amerindian
9.32% West_Asian
1.12% Australasian
0.00% Palaeo_African
0.00% Neo_African
6.10% Siberian
9.43% Southern
16.46% East_Asian
55.07% Atlantic_Baltic
0.60% South_Asian

Globe13

----------------------------
FINAL ADMIXTURE PROPORTIONS:
----------------------------

6.54% Siberian
1.87% Amerindian
0.00% West_African
0.00% Palaeo_African
2.22% Southwest_Asian
15.50% East_Asian
25.59% Mediterranean
1.11% Australasian
0.11% Arctic
8.49% West_Asian
38.31% North_European
0.24% South_Asian
0.00% East_African

ZephyrousMandaru
01-26-2013, 09:53 PM
There is one Assyrian man on 23andMe, who registers fairly high (7.24%) or so "South_Asian" on Dodecad V3. On Oracle, he was closer to Kurds than he was to Assyrians. I presume he's a Nestorian Assyrian.

Boudicca
01-31-2013, 10:15 AM
Hi,
Just wondering if someone can help me understand how they work! Across Eurogenes and Harappa World plus Doug, 23andme and deCODEme, my mother gets a segment of SSA in the same location. With Dodecad, it only appears on V3, k12b and a smidgen on World 9, but not k7b or Africa 9. Does anyone know why this might happen? Is Africa 9 only for Africans and recently mixed individuals? Is k12b better than k7b?
Thanks.

AJL
02-01-2013, 03:16 AM
I'm not really sure about this. But if you note the location, what is that African segment appearing as, when it doesn't appear as SSA?

Boudicca
02-01-2013, 01:15 PM
Hi,
On Africa 9 it appears as European and SW Asian and on k7b it appears as West/South/East Asian. I did find this on the Dodecad site about Africa 9:
"new calculator targeted specifically for Africans, The calculator combines data from Henn et al. (2011), HGDP, and Behar et al. (2010). As a result, the number of SNPs is small: there is probably noise in the minor components, but the major components of one's ancestry should be well-defined.
It should be used only by Africans and African-West Eurasian admixed individuals. It is not meant for people with additional admixture."

Perhaps they simply don't cover enough SNPs and as it would be minor ancestry, it's been engulfed by the European or confused with Asian? I have written to Dienekes, so it will be interesting to see what he says, but in the mean time wondered if anyone here knew much about the two. Maybe the use of more populations is better able to tease it out?

J Man
02-13-2013, 05:08 AM
I have been comparing the different ADMIXTURE analysis that Dienekes has done over the past few years and I have made a few interesting observations. I think that the Atlantic_Baltic component from his K7b run may be the very best at picking out Mesolithic ancestry in people of European descent. I think this because this component is quite limited to Europeans and is very high all over Europe and drops significantly once you enter West Asia and the Near East. Also the ''Mediterranean'' component seen in say for example his globe13 analysis clearly seems to mean different things for Southern Europeans such as Basques and Sardinians compared to West Asians/Near Easterners such as Armenians and Assyrians. In globe13 Basques, Sardinians, Armenians and Assyrians all score pretty high in the Mediterranean component but when you look at these populations in the K7b analysis you see that both Basques and Sardinians are high in the Atlantic_Baltic component and Armenians and Assyrians are very low in the Atlantic_Baltic component. To me this shows that the Mediterranean component in Basques and Sardinians has a more Atlantic or Western origin that it does in Armenians and Assyrians where it has a more true East Mediterranean or Levantine origin. So basically most of the Mediterranean component seen in Europeans comes from their Atlantic or old Western European roots which may relate back more closely to the old Mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Western Europe. So therefore basically the Atlantic_Baltic component is made up of majority Mesolithic hunter-gatherer European alleles from both Western and Northern Europe and may be the best for indicating true Mesolithic ancestry in West Eurasians.

What do others think about this?

Damn I just noticed that I put K7n instead of K7b in the title. It should read K7b.

Hanna
02-13-2013, 05:31 PM
Globe 13: Me----Maternal

West_Asian 45.21%--48.04%
Mediterranean 28.06%--27.13%
Southwest_Asian 15.16%--18.36%
North_European 4.58%--2.44%
Siberian 4.04%--1.43%
East_Asian 1.46%--0.06%
Arctic 0.91%--0.00%
South_Asian 0.28% --1.62%
Australasian 0.24%--0.35%
Palaeo_African 0.02%--0.00%
East_African 0.03%--0.06%
Amerindian 0.00%--0.56%
West_African 0.00% --0.00%

J Man
03-05-2013, 06:25 PM
I am curious about trying to sort out and find out what each of the components from the Dodecad globe10 analysis are and mean. I am interested mainly in looking at the Atlantic_Baltic, Southern and West Asian components. Here are my own interpretations of these three components below.

Atlantic_Baltic: Old stock European genes that are a mixture of Mesolithic and early Neolithic alleles that are present in all Europeans today. The Mesolithic alleles in this component obviously come from ancient European hunter-gatherers and the Neolithic alleles may have come from the earliest Neolithic groups in mainland Europe such as the LBK.

Southern: Neolithic genes that have a more southern source originating from the Levant and North Africa. Possibly spread into Europe a bit later than the Neolithic part of the Atlantic_Baltic component. Much more purely Neolithic than the Atlantic_Baltic component and have a higher presence in Southern Europe today. More of a trans-Mediterranean Neolithic type component.

West Asian: Very late Neolithic or even Copper or Bronze Age arrival in Europe. Originated most likely in the highlands of West Asia and spread out fairly late to Europe and affects Southeastern Europe the most. Originally an early Neolithic component from highland West Asia.


It would be nice to hear what others think about this.

http://dodecad.blogspot.ca/2012/10/g...alculator.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/10/...t-with_23.html

thetick
03-06-2013, 12:50 AM
There are some maps put together with a little interpertion for various Dodecad runs. A while back I grabbed the ones from a defunct blog. See http://bergep.clanteam.com/DOD_Maps/dod_map.html

If you do some searches you can find map for other runs.

Finally your links are both not working.

newtoboard
04-08-2013, 07:05 PM
Globe 13: Me----Maternal

West_Asian 45.21%--48.04%
Mediterranean 28.06%--27.13%
Southwest_Asian 15.16%--18.36%
North_European 4.58%--2.44%
Siberian 4.04%--1.43%
East_Asian 1.46%--0.06%
Arctic 0.91%--0.00%
South_Asian 0.28% --1.62%
Australasian 0.24%--0.35%
Palaeo_African 0.02%--0.00%
East_African 0.03%--0.06%
Amerindian 0.00%--0.56%
West_African 0.00% --0.00%

That is a lot more Mediterranian and SW Asian than I expected for Anatolia. For some reason east of the Zagros both components are lower but the Tarus didn't seem to be as effective a barrier (more so for SW asian as I believe Med could have its origins in Anatolia).

DMXX
04-09-2013, 04:43 PM
Mine for comparison.

45.43% West_Asian
17.77% Mediterranean
16.42% Southwest_Asian
7.82% North_European
6.77% South_Asian
1.98% Siberian
1.50% East_Asian
1.44% Arctic

J Man
04-15-2013, 11:46 PM
I am going back a few years in this thread and I am interested in looking back at the Dodecad V3 components and exploring their origins. The three main European components in this analysis are West_European, East_European and Mediterranean. This analysis is quite different from the later Dodecad analysis such as K12b and globe13 where North European and different Mediterranean components emerge. Is this old V3 analysis still useful for sorting out European autosomal DNA? Any thoughts?

http://dodecad.blogspot.ca/2011/06/dodecad-v3-population-averages.html

J Man
05-17-2013, 11:37 PM
What exactly is the Atlantic_Baltic component from the different Dodecad Project analysis such as the K7b and globe10? Is it a composite of alleles from the Atlantic and Baltic regions of Europe fused together?

http://dodecad.blogspot.ca/2012/01/k12b-and-k7b-calculators.html

http://dodecad.blogspot.ca/2012/10/globe10-calculator.html

Sapporo
09-24-2013, 04:09 AM
K12b Admixture Results:

#Population Percent
1 Gedrosia 40.78
2 South_Asian 30.95
3 North_European 14.48
4 Caucasus 8.88
5 Southwest_Asian 2.32
6 Siberian 2.1
7 Atlantic_Med 0.41
8 East_African 0.1


Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Jatt @ 7.216
2 Pathan @ 9.177
3 Burusho @ 11.200
4 Sindhi @ 14.130
5 Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh @ 15.545
6 Meena @ 17.089
7 Kshatriya @ 19.331
8 Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu @ 21.299
9 Indian @ 21.783
10 Cochin_Jews @ 21.856
223 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh +50% Pathan @ 3.956
2 50% Kshatriya +50% Pathan @ 6.146
3 50% Jatt +50% Pathan @ 6.384
4 50% Meena +50% Pathan @ 6.704
5 50% Iyengar +50% Tajiks @ 7.113
6 50% Jatt +50% Jatt @ 7.216
7 50% Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh +50% Burusho @ 7.320
8 50% Burusho +50% Jatt @ 7.372
9 50% GIH30 +50% Tajiks @ 7.541
10 50% Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu +50% Pathan @ 7.873
24976 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Pathan +25% Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh +25% Jatt @ 3.130
2 50% Pathan +25% Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh +25% Pathan @ 3.621
3 50% Pathan +25% Jatt +25% Kshatriya @ 3.631
4 50% Pathan +25% Kshatriya +25% Pathan @ 3.633
5 50% Pathan +25% Kanjars +25% Pathan @ 3.677
6 50% Pathan +25% Muslim +25% Pathan @ 3.818
7 50% Pathan +25% Iyengar +25% Pathan @ 3.864
8 50% Pathan +25% Bengali +25% Pathan @ 3.873
9 50% Pathan +25% Dharkars +25% Pathan @ 3.901
10 50% Pathan +25% Pathan +25% Tharus @ 3.945
1071627 iterations.

K12a Admixture Results:

#Population Percent
1 Gedrosia 40.39
2 South_Asian 29.36
3 North_European 14.87
4 Caucasus 10.01
5 Siberian 2.1
6 Southwest_Asian 1.96
7 Mediterranean 1.22
8 West_African 0.05
9 Northwest_African 0.04
10 Far_Asian 0.01

Humanist
09-25-2013, 03:17 PM
K12b Admixture Results:

1 Caucasus 50.6

2 Gedrosia 21.1
3 Southwest_Asian 18.4

4 Atlantic_Med 9.1

5 East_Asian 0.5
6 South_Asian 0.2

Components 1-4: ~99%

Dr_McNinja
09-25-2013, 07:32 PM
K12a:

South_Asian - 37.3%
Gedrosia - 35.06%
North European - 11.06%
Caucasus - 9.07%
Mediterranean - 3.26%
Southwest Asian - 1.06%
Siberian - 2.69%
Far Asian - 0.07%
Southeast Asian - 0.43%


K12b:

South_Asian - 38.87%
Gedrosia - 35.32%
North European - 10.61%
Caucasus - 8.22%
Atlantic-Med - 2.49%
Southwest Asian - 1.32%
Siberian - 2.55%
Southeast Asian - 0.61%


What were the changes between K12a and K12b anyway?

Sapporo
09-25-2013, 11:04 PM
What were the changes between K12a and K12b anyway?

This is what Dienekes stated about the updated calculator:



New Features

The new 'K12b' calculator is an update of the previous K12a one, that was inferred using all the new samples submitted during the last submission opportunity. The 12 components are still roughly the same, although their allele frequencies may have changed by a bit, so existing participants can expect to have slightly altered results, and new participants in the Project more so, since their data are now contributing to the creation of the new tool. Non-participants can, of course, use the new calculator with DIYDodecad.

I have also taken the opportunity to do some minor tweaks. I am releasing population portraits for K12b (which were lacking in K12a); I've changed my visualization code so that the sample IDs of non-Dodecad populations can now be seen in the barplots. This may be useful for anyone else using these reference populations, by quickly identifying potential outliers in them.

I have also decided to use normalized median admixture proportions for the populations. For example, if 5 individuals in a population have 0, 0, 0.2, 0.5, 10.0% of a particular component, then the average is 2.14%, but the median is 0.2%. By using the median, the proportions become less susceptible to the presence of outliers (such as the 10%). However, if the median is calculated over every component separately, it is no longer guaranteed that the components will add up to 100%; this can be addressed by re-normalizing them (scaling them by a constant factor) so that they do. I believe that use of the normalized median will not only give better proportions that are less susceptible to outliers, but will also improve results of the new Dodecad Oracle for K12b.

At the same time I am also releasing 'K7b' which is an update of the existing 'eurasia7' calculator and which has been built on exactly the same dataset as 'K12b' but at a lower (K=7) level of detail.

ZephyrousMandaru
09-27-2013, 04:32 AM
Population
Gedrosia 18.05%
Siberian 0.55%
Northwest_African 0.87%
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 11.45%
North_European 1.96%
South_Asian -
East_African 0.30%
Southwest_Asian 18.78%
East_Asian -
Caucasus 48.02%
Sub_Saharan -

FaerieQueene
10-10-2013, 08:13 AM
Dodecad K12b Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Med 28.02
2 Caucasus 25.65
3 North_European 17.58
4 Southwest_Asian 13.78
5 Gedrosia 9.68
6 Northwest_African 2.43
7 East_African 1.55
8 South_Asian 0.87
9 Siberian 0.25
10 Sub_Saharan 0.2

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 O_Italian (Dodecad) 9.75
2 C_Italian (Dodecad) 10.95
3 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.86
4 Sicilian (Dodecad) 12.36
5 Greek (Dodecad) 12.9
6 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.07
7 TSI30 (Metspalu) 13.11
8 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 14.21
9 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 14.46
10 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 16.29
11 N_Italian (Dodecad) 16.33
12 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 16.49
13 North_Italian (HGDP) 18.21
14 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 19.24
15 Romanians (Behar) 20.07
16 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 20.09
17 Baleares (1000Genomes) 24.89
18 Turkish (Dodecad) 25.13
19 Galicia (1000Genomes) 25.25
20 Extremadura (1000Genomes) 25.44

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# * Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 * 53.5% Lebanese (Behar) + 46.5% French (HGDP) @ 1.95
2 * 52.4% Syrians (Behar) + 47.6% French (HGDP) @ 3.16
3 * 51.1% Jordanians (Behar) + 48.9% French (HGDP) @ 3.29
4 * 51% French (Dodecad) + 49% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.47
5 * 54.4% Druze (HGDP) + 45.6% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 3.67
6 * 51% French (HGDP) + 49% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.73
7 * 54.8% Druze (HGDP) + 45.2% British (Dodecad) @ 3.74
8 * 52.8% French (HGDP) + 47.2% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 3.89
9 * 58.9% Lebanese (Behar) + 41.1% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 3.9
10 * 55.7% Druze (HGDP) + 44.3% Irish (Dodecad) @ 4.14
11 * 59.3% Lebanese (Behar) + 40.7% British (Dodecad) @ 4.16
12 * 55.8% Druze (HGDP) + 44.2% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 4.3
13 * 50.3% French (HGDP) + 49.7% Palestinian (HGDP) @ 4.32
14 * 63.1% N_Italian (Dodecad) + 36.9% Syrians (Behar) @ 4.32
15 * 64.3% N_Italian (Dodecad) + 35.7% Jordanians (Behar) @ 4.46
16 * 53.8% Druze (HGDP) + 46.2% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 4.55
17 * 58.3% Lebanese (Behar) + 41.7% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 4.55
18 * 70.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 29.1% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 4.56
19 * 53.2% Lebanese (Behar) + 46.8% Cataluna (1000Genomes) @ 4.59
20 * 55.3% Druze (HGDP) + 44.7% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 4.62

Dodecad K12b 4-Ancestors Oracle

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 O_Italian @ 10.208
2 C_Italian @ 11.612
3 S_Italian_Sicilian @ 13.058
4 Sicilian @ 13.583
5 TSI30 @ 13.776
6 Tuscan @ 13.802
7 Greek @ 14.117
8 Ashkenazi @ 15.762
9 Ashkenazy_Jews @ 16.097
10 N_Italian @ 17.312
223 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French +50% Lebanese @ 2.884
2 50% French +50% Lebanese @ 3.120
3 50% Druze +50% French @ 3.622
4 50% French +50% Jordanians @ 3.727
5 50% French +50% Syrians @ 3.864
6 50% Druze +50% French @ 3.876
7 50% French +50% Jordanians @ 4.070
8 50% French +50% Syrians @ 4.107
9 50% French +50% Iraq_Jews @ 4.372
10 50% French +50% Iraq_Jews @ 4.386
24976 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Lebanese +25% British +25% North_Italian @ 1.499
2 50% Lebanese +25% Cornwall +25% North_Italian @ 1.546
3 50% Lebanese +25% Irish +25% North_Italian @ 1.637
4 50% French +25% Druze +25% Jordanians @ 1.707
5 50% Lebanese +25% North_Italian +25% Orcadian @ 1.724
6 50% Spaniards +25% Bedouin +25% Chechens @ 1.731
7 50% Valencia +25% Chechens +25% Yemen_Jews @ 1.762
8 50% Lebanese +25% Baleares +25% Mixed_Germanic @ 1.763
9 50% French +25% Druze +25% Jordanians @ 1.817
10 50% Cataluna +25% Adygei +25% Bedouin @ 1.842
1083729 iterations.

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Andalucia + Armenians + Bedouin + Orkney @ 0.857
2 Castilla_La_Mancha + Dutch + Georgia_Jews + Palestinian @ 0.887
3 Armenians + Bedouin + Cornwall + Spaniards @ 0.897
4 Armenians + Bedouin + CEU30 + Valencia @ 0.907
5 Armenians + Bedouin + Castilla_La_Mancha + CEU30 @ 0.908
6 Armenians + Bedouin + English + Valencia @ 0.920
7 Armenians + Bedouin + British + Spaniards @ 0.937
8 Armenians + Bedouin + Castilla_La_Mancha + English @ 0.945
9 Armenians + Bedouin + Kent + Valencia @ 0.950
10 Armenians + Bedouin + Castilla_Y_Leon + Cornwall @ 0.952
11 Andalucia + Armenians + Bedouin + Orcadian @ 0.953
12 Armenians + Bedouin + Kent + Spaniards @ 0.960
13 Aragon + Armenians + Bedouin + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.969
14 Armenians + Bedouin + Kent + Spanish @ 0.972
15 Armenians + Bedouin + English + Spaniards @ 0.974
16 Aragon + Armenians + Bedouin + Dutch @ 0.976
17 Assyrian + British_Isles + Galicia + Palestinian @ 0.978
18 Armenians + Bedouin + Castilla_La_Mancha + Kent @ 0.984
19 Armenians + Bedouin + CEU30 + Spaniards @ 0.998
20 Aragon + Dutch + Georgia_Jews + Palestinian @ 1.002

2509104 iterations.

Done.

Elapsed time 2.8824 seconds.

Dodecad K12b Oracle-x Population Fitting

Pct. Calc. Option 1

0 Unable to determine 0.20%
1 O_Italian 77.90%
2 Saudis 9.35%
3 Brahui 5.97%
4 Somali 1.52%
5 Armenians 1.41%
6 Sardinian 1.35%
7 Mozabite 1.16%
8 Bulgarian 0.81%
9 Dolgan 0.20%
10 Bnei_Menashe_Jews 0.13%

Pct. Calc. Option 2

0 Unable to determine 0.02%
1 O_Italian 60.71%
2 N_Italian 10.67%
3 Saudis 9.19%
4 Balochi 7.15%
5 C_Italian 6.04%
6 Algerian 4.22%
7 Ethiopians 0.99%
8 Uzbeks 0.99%
9 Moroccan 0.00%
10 Brahui 0.00%

FaerieQueene
10-10-2013, 08:23 AM
Dodecad K12b Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 41.7
2 Southwest_Asian 25.19
3 Atlantic_Med 17.06
4 Gedrosia 9.08
5 Northwest_African 4.72
6 East_African 2.25

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Lebanese (Behar) 6.54
2 Syrians (Behar) 8.14
3 Jordanians (Behar) 8.23
4 Druze (HGDP) 8.7
5 Palestinian (HGDP) 9.4
6 Cypriots (Behar) 12
7 Samaritians (Behar) 12.13
8 Iraq_Jews (Behar) 12.31
9 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 14.35
10 Iranian_Jews (Behar) 15.36
11 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 15.71
12 Assyrian (Dodecad) 16.34
13 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 16.37
14 Georgia_Jews (Behar) 16.89
15 Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) 17
16 Turkish (Dodecad) 19.19
17 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 19.5
18 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 19.63
19 Turks (Behar) 19.73
20 Armenian (Dodecad) 19.78

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# * Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 * 61.1% Jordanians (Behar) + 38.9% Cypriots (Behar) @ 3.97
2 * 57.3% Palestinian (HGDP) + 42.7% Cypriots (Behar) @ 4.23
3 * 92.9% Lebanese (Behar) + 7.1% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 4.89
4 * 67.3% Jordanians (Behar) + 32.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 4.99
5 * 66.3% Cypriots (Behar) + 33.7% Bedouin (HGDP) @ 5.02
6 * 63.1% Syrians (Behar) + 36.9% Cypriots (Behar) @ 5.06
7 * 63% Palestinian (HGDP) + 37% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 5.13
8 * 57% Iraq_Jews (Behar) + 43% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 5.15
9 * 68.2% Syrians (Behar) + 31.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 5.26
10 * 68.2% Druze (HGDP) + 31.8% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 5.29
11 * 57.6% Samaritians (Behar) + 42.4% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 5.35
12 * 80.4% Lebanese (Behar) + 19.6% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 5.46
13 * 70.9% Syrians (Behar) + 29.1% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 5.47
14 * 79.4% Lebanese (Behar) + 20.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 5.56
15 * 55.1% Samaritians (Behar) + 44.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 5.64
16 * 52.6% Jordanians (Behar) + 47.4% Druze (HGDP) @ 5.71
17 * 77.7% Lebanese (Behar) + 22.3% Cypriots (Behar) @ 5.8
18 * 77.6% Jordanians (Behar) + 22.4% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 5.81
19 * 86.4% Druze (HGDP) + 13.6% Algerian (Dodecad) @ 5.83
20 * 78.2% Jordanians (Behar) + 21.8% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 5.87

Dodecad K12b 4-Ancestors Oracle

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Lebanese @ 6.981
2 Jordanians @ 8.564
3 Syrians @ 8.660
4 Druze @ 9.622
5 Palestinian @ 9.801
6 Cypriots @ 13.012
7 Samaritians @ 13.121
8 Iraq_Jews @ 13.357
9 Sephardic_Jews @ 15.376
10 Iranian_Jews @ 16.691
223 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Cypriots +50% Jordanians @ 4.768
2 50% Cypriots +50% Palestinian @ 4.802
3 50% Iraq_Jews +50% Morocco_Jews @ 5.750
4 50% Cypriots +50% Syrians @ 5.954
5 50% Druze +50% Jordanians @ 6.066
6 50% Morocco_Jews +50% Samaritians @ 6.108
7 50% Samaritians +50% Sephardic_Jews @ 6.202
8 50% Palestinian +50% Sephardic_Jews @ 6.323
9 50% Druze +50% Palestinian @ 6.368
10 50% Iraq_Jews +50% Sephardic_Jews @ 6.543
24976 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Palestinian +25% Assyrian +25% Morocco_Jews @ 3.464
2 50% Druze +25% Morocco_Jews +25% Palestinian @ 3.506
3 50% Palestinian +25% Iraq_Jews +25% Sephardic_Jews @ 3.632
4 50% Jordanians +25% Druze +25% Sephardic_Jews @ 3.660
5 50% Palestinian +25% Azerbaijan_Jews +25% Morocco_Jews @ 3.673
6 50% Palestinian +25% Assyrian +25% Sephardic_Jews @ 3.677
7 50% Druze +25% Jordanians +25% Morocco_Jews @ 3.691
8 50% Palestinian +25% Druze +25% Sephardic_Jews @ 3.714
9 50% Druze +25% Bedouin +25% Morocco_Jews @ 3.753
10 50% Jordanians +25% Druze +25% Morocco_Jews @ 3.854
316665 iterations.

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Bedouin + Cypriots + Iranian_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 2.986
2 Assyrian + Bedouin + Cypriots + Morocco_Jews @ 3.043
3 Bedouin + Cypriots + Iraq_Jews + Morocco_Jews @ 3.060
4 Azerbaijan_Jews + Bedouin + Cypriots + Morocco_Jews @ 3.129
5 Druze + Iraq_Jews + Morocco_Jews + Palestinian @ 3.165
6 Iraq_Jews + Jordanians + Morocco_Jews + Samaritians @ 3.227
7 Assyrian + Bedouin + Druze + Morocco_Jews @ 3.305
8 Bedouin + Cypriots + Iraq_Jews + Sephardic_Jews @ 3.350
9 Iraq_Jews + Morocco_Jews + Palestinian + Samaritians @ 3.363
10 Azerbaijan_Jews + Bedouin + Druze + Morocco_Jews @ 3.391
11 Iraq_Jews + Morocco_Jews + Samaritians + Syrians @ 3.444
12 Bedouin + Cypriots + Iranian_Jews + Sephardic_Jews @ 3.462
13 Assyrian + Morocco_Jews + Palestinian + Palestinian @ 3.464
14 Assyrian + Morocco_Jews + Palestinian + Samaritians @ 3.480
15 Druze + Morocco_Jews + Samaritians + Syrians @ 3.488
16 Druze + Morocco_Jews + Palestinian + Syrians @ 3.502
17 Druze + Druze + Morocco_Jews + Palestinian @ 3.506
18 Druze + Jordanians + Morocco_Jews + Samaritians @ 3.557
19 Druze + Jordanians + Palestinian + Sephardic_Jews @ 3.559
20 Druze + Palestinian + Sephardic_Jews + Syrians @ 3.594

463708 iterations.

Done.

Elapsed time 0.7450 seconds.

Dodecad K12b Oracle-x Population Fitting

Pct. Calc. Option 1

1 Druze 49.50%
2 Palestinian 36.09%
3 Sardinian 8.56%
4 Bedouin 3.31%
5 Brahui 2.01%
6 Moroccan 0.51%
7 Lebanese 0.02%
8 Egyptans 0.00%
9 Jordanians 0.00%
10 Algerian 0.00%

Pct. Calc. Option 2

1 Lebanese 49.01%
2 Palestinian 11.03%
3 Sardinian 8.19%
4 Druze 7.47%
5 Samaritians 6.98%
6 Egyptans 5.89%
7 Iraq_Jews 5.74%
8 Bedouin 5.44%
9 Morocco_Jews 0.12%
10 Sephardic_Jews 0.11%

FaerieQueene
10-10-2013, 08:30 AM
Dodecad K12b Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_European 41.27
2 Atlantic_Med 35.91
3 Caucasus 10.49
4 Gedrosia 9.34
5 Southwest_Asian 1.8
6 South_Asian 0.69
7 Sub_Saharan 0.41
8 East_African 0.08
9 East_Asian 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) 5.44
2 Dutch (Dodecad) 7.23
3 German (Dodecad) 7.23
4 Kent (1000Genomes) 8.82
5 French (Dodecad) 8.9
6 CEU30 (1000Genomes) 9.03
7 English (Dodecad) 9.2
8 French (HGDP) 9.41
9 British_Isles (Dodecad) 10.57
10 Cornwall (1000Genomes) 10.95
11 British (Dodecad) 11.26
12 Argyll (1000Genomes) 11.45
13 Irish (Dodecad) 12.06
14 Orkney (1000Genomes) 12.14
15 Orcadian (HGDP) 12.17
16 Hungarians (Behar) 12.76
17 Norwegian (Dodecad) 15.56
18 Swedish (Dodecad) 16.81
19 N_Italian (Dodecad) 20.68
20 Romanians (Behar) 20.88

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# * Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 * 66.8% Argyll (1000Genomes) + 33.2% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) @ 0.99
2 * 65.4% Irish (Dodecad) + 34.6% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 0.99
3 * 63.5% Irish (Dodecad) + 36.5% Romanians (Behar) @ 1.04
4 * 64.7% Argyll (1000Genomes) + 35.3% Romanians (Behar) @ 1.05
5 * 65.2% Orcadian (HGDP) + 34.8% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 1.05
6 * 66.6% Argyll (1000Genomes) + 33.4% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 1.14
7 * 63.2% Orcadian (HGDP) + 36.8% Romanians (Behar) @ 1.15
8 * 71.4% English (Dodecad) + 28.6% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 1.31
9 * 81.1% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 18.9% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 1.32
10 * 71.8% CEU30 (1000Genomes) + 28.2% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 1.33
11 * 79.8% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 20.2% Romanians (Behar) @ 1.35
12 * 89.6% Dutch (Dodecad) + 10.4% Armenians (Behar) @ 1.37
13 * 87.4% Dutch (Dodecad) + 12.6% Turkish (Dodecad) @ 1.38
14 * 86.2% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 13.8% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.39
15 * 69.6% English (Dodecad) + 30.4% Romanians (Behar) @ 1.4
16 * 81.3% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 18.7% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) @ 1.43
17 * 70% CEU30 (1000Genomes) + 30% Romanians (Behar) @ 1.43
18 * 72.3% Kent (1000Genomes) + 27.7% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 1.44
19 * 65.3% Orkney (1000Genomes) + 34.7% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 1.44
20 * 65.4% Orcadian (HGDP) + 34.6% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) @ 1.45

Dodecad K12b 4-Ancestors Oracle

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Mixed_Germanic @ 5.619
2 Dutch @ 7.601
3 German @ 7.608
4 Kent @ 9.366
5 French @ 9.521
6 CEU30 @ 9.607
7 English @ 9.803
8 French @ 10.037
9 British_Isles @ 11.291
10 Cornwall @ 11.746
223 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French +50% German @ 3.360
2 50% French +50% German @ 3.437
3 50% N_Italian +50% Swedish @ 3.808
4 50% French +50% Hungarians @ 4.034
5 50% French +50% Hungarians @ 4.085
6 50% N_Italian +50% Norwegian @ 4.476
7 50% Cornwall +50% Hungarians @ 4.588
8 50% North_Italian +50% Swedish @ 5.082
9 50% British +50% Hungarians @ 5.086
10 50% German +50% Mixed_Germanic @ 5.189
24976 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Mixed_Germanic +25% Cornwall +25% Romanians @ 0.660
2 50% Mixed_Germanic +25% British +25% Romanians @ 0.694
3 50% Mixed_Germanic +25% Bulgarian +25% Irish @ 0.713
4 50% English +25% Bulgarian +25% Mixed_Germanic @ 0.728
5 50% Mixed_Germanic +25% British +25% Bulgarian @ 0.739
6 50% CEU30 +25% Bulgarian +25% Mixed_Germanic @ 0.782
7 50% Kent +25% Bulgarian +25% Mixed_Germanic @ 0.810
8 50% Mixed_Germanic +25% Bulgarian +25% Orcadian @ 0.812
9 50% Mixed_Germanic +25% Bulgarian +25% Cornwall @ 0.848
10 50% Mixed_Germanic +25% Irish +25% Romanians @ 0.906
405295 iterations.

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Argyll + Bulgarian + Kent + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.587
2 Cornwall + Mixed_Germanic + Mixed_Germanic + Romanians @ 0.660
3 British + Mixed_Germanic + Mixed_Germanic + Romanians @ 0.694
4 Bulgarian + Cornwall + Dutch + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.702
5 Bulgarian + Irish + Mixed_Germanic + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.713
6 Bulgarian + English + English + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.728
7 Bulgarian + English + Kent + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.734
8 British + Bulgarian + Mixed_Germanic + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.739
9 Bulgarian + CEU30 + Cornwall + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.747
10 Bulgarian + CEU30 + English + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.752
11 Bulgarian + CEU30 + Kent + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.754
12 British + Bulgarian + CEU30 + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.759
13 British + Bulgarian + Dutch + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.767
14 Argyll + Bulgarian + CEU30 + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.769
15 Argyll + Bulgarian + English + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.779
16 Bulgarian + CEU30 + CEU30 + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.782
17 Bulgarian + Cornwall + English + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.791
18 Argyll + Bulgarians + Kent + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.801
19 British + Bulgarian + English + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.804
20 Bulgarian + Irish + Kent + Mixed_Germanic @ 0.804

900255 iterations.

Done.

Elapsed time 0.9190 seconds.

Dodecad K12b Oracle-x Population Fitting

Pct. Calc. Option 1

1 Mixed_Germanic 83.97%
2 Bulgarians 8.34%
3 Greek 2.81%
4 Romanians 1.84%
5 Cypriots 1.08%
6 Samaritians 0.84%
7 Pulliyar 0.67%
8 Bantu_N.E. 0.45%
9 Sicilian 0.00%
10 Balkars 0.00%

Pct. Calc. Option 2

0 Unable to determine 0.02%
1 Mixed_Germanic 64.79%
2 Samaritians 8.26%
3 Polish 5.69%
4 Norwegian 5.21%
5 CEU30 5.18%
6 British_Isles 4.90%
7 Pais_Vasco 3.48%
8 Georgians 1.97%
9 Sardinian 0.41%
10 Pulliyar 0.07%

vettor
10-20-2013, 11:47 PM
my K12b info

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Med 35.87
2 North_European 28.04
3 Caucasus 20.98
4 Gedrosia 7.02
5 Southwest_Asian 6.23
6 Northwest_African 1.42
7 South_Asian 0.33
8 Sub_Saharan 0.1

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 N_Italian (Dodecad) 6.71
2 O_Italian (Dodecad) 9.26
3 North_Italian (HGDP) 9.88
4 TSI30 (Metspalu) 11.05
5 Tuscan (HGDP) 12.44
6 C_Italian (Dodecad) 14.46
7 Romanians (Behar) 14.96
8 Baleares (1000Genomes) 15.18
9 Galicia (1000Genomes) 15.63
10 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 15.66
11 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 15.66
12 French (HGDP) 16.22
13 French (Dodecad) 16.35
14 Extremadura (1000Genomes) 16.37
15 Portuguese (Dodecad) 16.81
16 Greek (Dodecad) 18.51
17 Murcia (1000Genomes) 18.56
18 Cataluna (1000Genomes) 18.77
19 Castilla_Y_Leon (1000Genomes) 18.78
20 Spaniards (Behar) 19.15


My K7b one below


# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 55.72
2 Southern 26.21
3 West_Asian 17.43
4 South_Asian 0.44
5 African 0.2

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 N_Italian (Dodecad) 2.49
2 North_Italian (HGDP) 4.94
3 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 5.35
4 Romanians (Behar) 5.57
5 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 6.2
6 O_Italian (Dodecad) 6.87
7 TSI30 (Metspalu) 8.85
8 Tuscan (HGDP) 8.86
9 Baleares (1000Genomes) 9.65
10 Extremadura (1000Genomes) 10.72
11 Andalucia (1000Genomes) 11
12 Murcia (1000Genomes) 11.11
13 Galicia (1000Genomes) 11.18
14 Spaniards (Behar) 11.35
15 Portuguese (Dodecad) 11.55
16 Castilla_La_Mancha (1000Genomes) 12.74
17 Castilla_Y_Leon (1000Genomes) 12.81
18 Cataluna (1000Genomes) 12.86
19 Spanish (Dodecad) 13.01
20 Valencia (1000Genomes) 13.29


I was wondering how K7b and K12b are weighted differently...can anyone help?

Humanist
12-21-2013, 10:46 PM
K12b "Gedrosia" (rounded)

First European population = Red
First West Asian population = Blue


MODAL (70-61)
70 -- Brahui
65 -- Balochi
61 -- Makrani

(60-52)
NO POPULATIONS

(51-43)
51 -- Sindhi
46 -- Jatt_D
45 -- Pathan
43 -- Meena_M
43 -- Burusho

(39-31)
39 -- GIH30
39 -- Indian_D
39 -- Iyer_D
39 -- Iyengar_D
39 -- Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu_M
38 -- Velamas_M
38 -- Kshatriya_M
37 -- INS30
36 -- Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh_M
36 -- Meghawal_M
35 -- Dharkars_M
35 -- Kanjars_M
34 -- Kurmi_M
34 -- Tajiks_Y
34 -- Muslim_M
33 -- Tamil_Nadu_Scheduled_Caste_M
33 -- Kurumba_M
33 -- Cochin_Jews
32 -- Tharus_M
32 -- Lambadi_M
32 -- Bengali_M
32 -- Uttar_Pradesh_Scheduled_Caste_M
31 -- Piramalai_Kallars_M
31 -- Dusadh_M

(29-20)
29 -- Iranian_D
29 -- Kol_M
29 -- Kurd_D
28 -- Turkmens_Y
28 -- Lezgins
27 -- Brahmins_from_Uttaranchal_M
26 -- Bnei_Menashe_Jews
26 -- SAKILLI
25 -- Chenchus_M
25 -- Chamar_M
22 -- Chechens_Y
22 -- Hakkipikki_M
21 -- Hazara
20 -- Uzbekistan_Jews
20 -- North_Kannadi
20 -- Kumyks_Y

(19-10)
19 -- Iranian_Jews
19 -- Azerbaijan_Jews
18 -- Assyrian_D
18 -- Uzbeks
17 -- Abhkasians_Y
17 -- Adygei
17 -- Uygur
17 -- Georgia_Jews
17 -- Georgians
17 -- Armenian_D
17 -- Iraq_Jews
17 -- North_Ossetians_Y
16 -- Gond_M
16 -- Balkars_Y
13 -- Turkish_D
13 -- Argyll_1KG
13 -- Nogais_Y
12 -- Orcadian
12 -- Irish_D
12 -- Orkney_1KG
11 -- Cornwall_1KG
11 -- Syrians
11 -- British_D
11 -- Lebanese
11 -- Mixed_Germanic_D
11 -- CEU30
11 -- English_D
11 -- Kent_1KG
10 -- Nihali_M
10 -- Dutch_D
10 -- French_Basque
10 -- Jordanians
10 -- British_Isles_D


(9-1)
9 -- Altai
9 -- MALAYAN
9 -- Pais_Vasco_1KG
9 -- Druze
8 -- Norwegian_D
8 -- French_D
8 -- Swedish_D
7 -- Cataluna_1KG
7 -- German_D
7 -- Andalucia_1KG
7 -- Extremadura_1KG
7 -- Selkup
7 -- Castilla_La_Mancha_1KG
7 -- Palestinian
7 -- Valencia_1KG
6 -- Aragon_1KG
6 -- O_Italian_D
6 -- Spanish_D
6 -- ASUR_Ch
6 -- Portuguese_D
6 -- Ket
6 -- Mongol
6 -- Yemenese
6 -- Cypriots
6 -- Cantabria_1KG
6 -- N_Italian_D
6 -- Sephardic_Jews
6 -- Baleares_1KG
6 -- Murcia_1KG
6 -- S_Italian_Sicilian_D
5 -- Castilla_Y_Leon_1KG
5 -- Morocco_Jews
5 -- Galicia_1KG
5 -- Bedouin
5 -- Canarias_1KG
5 -- TSI30
5 -- C_Italian_D
5 -- Tuscan
5 -- Khasi_Ch
5 -- Chuvashs
5 -- North_Italian
5 -- Sicilian_D
4 -- Tuva
4 -- Burmanese_Ch
4 -- Hungarians
4 -- Mordovians_Y
4 -- Samaritans
4 -- Saudis
3 -- Bulgarian_D
3 -- Buryat
3 -- Greek_D
3 -- Santhal_Ch
3 -- Romanians
3 -- Tu
3 -- Egyptians
2 -- Ashkenazi_D
2 -- Russian
2 -- Mongola
2 -- Mawasi_Ch
2 -- Russian_D
2 -- Bulgarians_Y
1 -- Yakut
1 -- ASW30
1 -- FIN30
1 -- Mixed_Slav_D
1 -- Algerian_D
1 -- Xibo
1 -- Polish_D
1 -- Pulliyar_M

newtoboard
12-21-2013, 10:49 PM
Someone should make a map of that. Really interesting.

newtoboard
12-21-2013, 10:52 PM
I wonder if gedrosia has it's origins in the Mesolithic of the indus valley or the Neolithic of eastern / northern west asia.

Joe B
12-21-2013, 11:52 PM
Known: German 50%, Irish 12.5%, N Italian 6.25%, Unknown 31.25%
Dodecad K12b Oracle results: Gedrosia 8.46% ?

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_European 39.25
2 Atlantic_Med 30.94
3 Caucasus 15.59
4 Gedrosia 8.46
5 Southwest_Asian 4.21
6 Northwest_African 0.77
7 Siberian 0.59
8 East_African 0.19

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarians (Behar) 10.1
2 German (Dodecad) 10.25
3 Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) 12.39
4 Dutch (Dodecad) 14.06
5 French (Dodecad) 14.09
6 Romanians (Behar) 14.24
7 French (HGDP) 14.46
8 Kent (1000Genomes) 15.92
9 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 15.95
10 CEU30 (1000Genomes) 16.11
11 English (Dodecad) 16.28
12 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 16.41
13 British_Isles (Dodecad) 17.6
14 Cornwall (1000Genomes) 17.99
15 British (Dodecad) 18.3
16 Argyll (1000Genomes) 18.3
17 N_Italian (Dodecad) 18.55
18 Orkney (1000Genomes) 19.04
19 Irish (Dodecad) 19.06
20 Orcadian (HGDP) 19.14

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 69.3% Norwegian (Dodecad) + 30.7% Cypriots (Behar) @ 1.56
2 53.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 46.5% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 1.64
3 79.3% German (Dodecad) + 20.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 1.77
4 60.9% Swedish (Dodecad) + 39.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.09
5 54.6% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 45.4% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.09
6 76.3% German (Dodecad) + 23.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.09
7 54.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 45.5% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.1
8 56.4% Romanians (Behar) + 43.6% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.14
9 82.3% German (Dodecad) + 17.7% Cypriots (Behar) @ 2.18
10 54.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 45.5% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.19
11 56.5% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 43.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 2.24
12 84% German (Dodecad) + 16% Druze (HGDP) @ 2.25
13 76.4% German (Dodecad) + 23.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.27
14 79.6% German (Dodecad) + 20.4% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 2.29
15 60.9% Swedish (Dodecad) + 39.1% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.39
16 82.7% German (Dodecad) + 17.3% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.41
17 77.1% German (Dodecad) + 22.9% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) @ 2.41
18 84.5% German (Dodecad) + 15.5% Assyrian (Dodecad) @ 2.45
19 84.5% German (Dodecad) + 15.5% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 2.46
20 84.5% German (Dodecad) + 15.5% Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) @ 2.47

Silesian
12-22-2013, 12:56 AM
Known: German 50%, Irish 12.5%, N Italian 6.25%, Unknown 31.25%
Dodecad K12b Oracle results: Gedrosia 8.46% ?
Comparing R1b Z2103* from Germany and Śląsk Poland,Gedrosia 5.5%using Dodecad K12b similar to EUtest V2K15.
# Population Percent
1 North_European 39.25
2 Atlantic_Med 30.94
3 Caucasus 15.59
4 Gedrosia 8.46
5 Southwest_Asian 4.21
6 Northwest_African 0.77
7 Siberian 0.59
8 East_African 0.19

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarians (Behar) 10.1
2 German (Dodecad) 10.25
3 Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) 12.39
4 Dutch (Dodecad) 14.06
5 French (Dodecad) 14.09

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 69.3% Norwegian (Dodecad) + 30.7% Cypriots (Behar) @ 1.56
2 53.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 46.5% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 1.64
3 79.3% German (Dodecad) + 20.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 1.77
4 60.9% Swedish (Dodecad) + 39.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.09
5 54.6% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 45.4% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.09


# Population Percent
1 North_European 54.58
2 Atlantic_Med 26.73
3 Caucasus 11.24
4 Gedrosia 5.5
5 Siberian 1.12
6 South_Asian 0.73
7 Southwest_Asian 0.1
8 Southeast_Asian 0.01


# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarians (Behar) 7.82
2 German (Dodecad) 8.78
3 Polish (Dodecad) 10.94
4 Swedish (Dodecad) 11.03
5 Norwegian (Dodecad) 13.37


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.8% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 47.2% Russian_B (Behar) @ 1.37
2 67.3% German (Dodecad) + 32.7% Russian_B (Behar) @ 1.49
3 65.7% German (Dodecad) + 34.3% Russian (Dodecad) @ 1.74
4 53.4% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) + 46.6% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 1.74
5 57.2% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) + 42.8% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.91

Humanist
12-22-2013, 02:03 AM
I posted this on another forum a while back. It is based on this Dienekes blog entry: Inter-relationships of the Dodecad K12b...components (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/inter-relationships-of-dodecad-k12b-and.html)

Dienekes [order rearranged]:


Southwest Asian appears to be Caucasus
Gedrosia appears to be Caucasus + a slice of Siberian
Atlantic Med appears to be Caucasus + a slice of North European
Northwest African appears to be Caucasus + a minority Sub Saharan
South Asian appears to be Caucasus + East Asian
East African appears to be Sub Saharan + minority Caucasus

Caucasus appears Atlantic Med + Gedrosia + slices of Northwest African and Southwest Asian
North European appears to be Atlantic Med + Gedrosia with a slice of Siberian

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Caucasus.jpg

vettor
12-22-2013, 02:07 AM
Comparing R1b Z2103* from Germany and Śląsk Poland,Gedrosia 5.5%using Dodecad K12b similar to EUtest V2K15.
# Population Percent
1 North_European 39.25
2 Atlantic_Med 30.94
3 Caucasus 15.59
4 Gedrosia 8.46
5 Southwest_Asian 4.21
6 Northwest_African 0.77
7 Siberian 0.59
8 East_African 0.19

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarians (Behar) 10.1
2 German (Dodecad) 10.25
3 Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) 12.39
4 Dutch (Dodecad) 14.06
5 French (Dodecad) 14.09

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 69.3% Norwegian (Dodecad) + 30.7% Cypriots (Behar) @ 1.56
2 53.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 46.5% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 1.64
3 79.3% German (Dodecad) + 20.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 1.77
4 60.9% Swedish (Dodecad) + 39.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.09
5 54.6% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 45.4% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.09


# Population Percent
1 North_European 54.58
2 Atlantic_Med 26.73
3 Caucasus 11.24
4 Gedrosia 5.5
5 Siberian 1.12
6 South_Asian 0.73
7 Southwest_Asian 0.1
8 Southeast_Asian 0.01


# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarians (Behar) 7.82
2 German (Dodecad) 8.78
3 Polish (Dodecad) 10.94
4 Swedish (Dodecad) 11.03
5 Norwegian (Dodecad) 13.37


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.8% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 47.2% Russian_B (Behar) @ 1.37
2 67.3% German (Dodecad) + 32.7% Russian_B (Behar) @ 1.49
3 65.7% German (Dodecad) + 34.3% Russian (Dodecad) @ 1.74
4 53.4% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) + 46.6% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 1.74
5 57.2% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) + 42.8% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.91

how are you comparing and what are you aiming for with this data?

vettor
12-22-2013, 02:16 AM
I posted this on another forum a while back. It is based on this Dienekes blog entry: Inter-relationships of the Dodecad K12b...components (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/inter-relationships-of-dodecad-k12b-and.html)

Dienekes [order rearranged]:



http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Caucasus.jpg


The data seems odd ...........how much "african" are they talking about

mine is 1.5% african and 21% caucasus in Dodecad k12b

I hope they are not referring to Pais_Vasco which is Basque as being African

My K12b below
Admix Results:

# Population Percent
1 Gedrosia 6.78
2 Siberian 0.00
3 Northwest_African 1.43
4 Southeast_Asian 0.00
5 Atlantic_Med 35.91
6 North_European 28.10
7 South_Asian 0.50
8 East_African 0.00
9 Southwest_Asian 6.19
10 East_Asian 0.00
11 Caucasus 20.99
12 Sub_Saharan 0.10


Pct. Calc. Option 2

0 Unable to determine 0.02%
1 N_Italian 60.60%
2 Finnish 10.48%
3 Lezgins 7.47%
4 North_Italian 6.26%
5 Pais_Vasco 5.13%

Silesian
12-22-2013, 04:22 AM
how are you comparing

We belong to the same branch,of R1b Z2103 Germany_Poland. At 12/12 markers I match R1b-312 from Denmark & Northern Germany, at 11/12, my markers are similar to R1b found in Bashkortostan, Baysari-Buryjan clan. Hopefully one day full test's will be completed on R1b samples found in Kromsdrof Germany. Also the earliest sample similar to our branch is found in Czech. 1180 #U98VT. For now we can only compare auDNA from similar region.

and what are you aiming for with this data?
I have around 40-50 on my 23andme account with similar R1b. Our branch extends from Germany Poland Italy Albania Greece Armenia Turkey Iran Ukraine Russia. Comparing JoeB is first K12b comparison, from same region on same branch.

Joe B
12-22-2013, 06:01 AM
Comparing R1b Z2103* from Germany and Śląsk Poland,Gedrosia 5.5%using Dodecad K12b similar to EUtest V2K15.



Known: German 50%, Irish 12.5%, N Italian 6.25%, Unknown 31.25%
Dodecad K12b Oracle results: Gedrosia 8.46% ?


The Gedrosia admixture component in N. Europe seems to have an increasing cline from Western Germany to the the Isles. Northen Slavic countries show very little Gedrosia admixture. Looks like any relationship between R1b-Z2103* and other Y-subclades with Gedrosia may be just coincidental.

The Dodecad K12b speadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE&hl=en_US#gid=0) has reference populations.

Some of the Nationalities/Ethnicities from this thread:


Population Source N................. Gedrosia
Polish_D Dodecad 18..................... 0.5
Mixed_Slav_D Dodecad 12.............. 0.9
Hungarians Behar 19..................... 4.1
Bulgarian_D Dodecad 7.................. 3.3
Bulgarians_Y Yunusbayev 10.......... 1.5

German_D Dodecad 18 ................. 7.3
Mixed_Germanic_D Dodecad 7....... 10.7

Irish_D Dodecad 14..................... 11.9
British_D Dodecad 11.................. 11.3
British_Isles_D Dodecad 8............. 9.5

C_Italian_D Dodecad 13................ 4.8
N_Italian_D Dodecad 5.................. 5.7
North_Italian HGDP 11.................. 4.5
O_Italian_D Dodecad 5.................. 6.2
S_Italian_Sicilian_D Dodecad 10..... 5.5
Sicilian_D Dodecad 15................... 4.5

Armenian_D Dodecad 32.............. 16.8
Armenians Behar 18.................... 15.8
Armenians_15_Y Yunusbayev 13... 18.0
Assyrian_D Dodecad 13............... 18.3

Lebanese Behar 7........................ 10.8
Syrians Behar 15......................... 11.4

Indian_D Dodecad 25................... 39.3
Pathan HGDP 22.......................... 44.5
Sindhi HGDP 22........................... 50.9
Makrani HGDP 22......................... 61.2
Balochi HGDP 21.......................... 64.5
Brahui HGDP 23........................... 69.5



The [K7b/K12b] admixture calculator is courtesy of Dienekes Pontikos (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/) and was developed as part of the Dodecad Ancestry Project (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/); more information here (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/k12b-and-k7b-calculators.html).

DMXX
12-22-2013, 09:46 AM
I wonder if gedrosia has it's origins in the Mesolithic of the indus valley or the Neolithic of eastern / northern west asia.

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say it largely (but not entirely) represents the "eastern side" of the Neolithic revolution which occurred in West Asia.

The frequency pattern is fairly indicative; you will note a peak around the Indus valley followed by a pan-Subcontinental Indian presence alongside parts of South-Central Asia (Tajikistan). You then note the 20-30% scores are from both the Iranian plateau, the Caucasus and South Asia once more. The next set of regions are ones with an association with the Neolithic revolution, namely, Europe and the rest of the Near-East excluding the Iranian plateau.

I state largely rather than entirely because the above doesn't address differences between certain neighbouring populations. For instance, Iranians/Kurds (29%) versus Assyrians (18%) or Armenians (17%). Another example is the Lezgin (28%) and Chechens (22%) compared with Georgians (17%).

Other historical movements may explain these. The most obvious in the case of Iranians/Kurds with Assyrians and Armenians is the Indo-Iranian expansion from Central Asia. Under the Eurasian steppe model with the commonly accepted interaction between early Indo-Iranian Andronovo with non-Indo-European BMAC, this "Gedrosian" might have become a part of the early Iranian genetic constitution after 1500 B.C. before they swept westwards into the Iranian plateau.

The finalised Andronovo-BMAC package may also explain the patchy distribution of "Gedrosian" in the North Caucasus; recall Herodotus stated the Scythians and Sarmatians moved westwards from Central Asia. Perhaps they are responsible for this. Although, that would represent a disconnect with the linguistic realities of the region, considering Ossetians are less "Gedrosian" than their Lezgin and Chechen neighbours...

newtoboard
12-22-2013, 12:57 PM
That all makes sense. My issue is there is a lot of gedrosia to associate with the Neolithic revolution and not much j or g in the areas where gedrosia peaks. For example it's quite reasonable to associate r2 with Mesolithic hunter gatherers IMO does it make sense to associate r2 with a non west Eurasian component ( or any other west Eurasian component).

MfA
12-22-2013, 03:47 PM
Kurds in Dodecad reference sample are mainly from Central and Eastern Kurds which are minority considering total Kurdish population.. Northern Kurds which are absolute majority of total Kurdish population, scores 24% Gedrosia(n=13) bigger than dodecad reference, they also score lower east eurasian, swa and higher south asian, european admixture than dodecad reference which eliminates Armenian, Assyrian, Turkish input and make them unique in their own way..


Genome mapping of Kurds by Palisto
Dodecad K12b data from gedmatch were used to determine biogeographical ancestry
http://abload.de/img/desktop_2013_12_22_17e5s82.png


https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=212724382842737328910.0004c38caea6660f92214&hl=en&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=37.195331,44.428711&spn=12.242107,18.676758&z=5&source=embed

DMXX
12-22-2013, 08:14 PM
That all makes sense. My issue is there is a lot of gedrosia to associate with the Neolithic revolution and not much j or g in the areas where gedrosia peaks. For example it's quite reasonable to associate r2 with Mesolithic hunter gatherers IMO does it make sense to associate r2 with a non west Eurasian component ( or any other west Eurasian component).

Actually, the Kalash seem to consistently be a total of ~40% for Y-DNA J and G combined if that's anything to go by. The problem is founder effects (likely from regional history) have skewed the frequencies somewhat; readers should note the wild disparity in Y-DNA frequencies across the Pamir mountain villages in Tajikistan despite most of them being composed of the same Y-DNA E, J, R1a1a, R2 and (likely) G lines (Wells et al.). Let's also not forget the numerous incursions and population shifts that have occurred since prehistory.

The situation with R2a-M124 isn't clear, but as mentioned elsewhere on the forum, L295 seems to be our best marker in differentiating this lineage. At present, both Europe and South Asia has a mixed status with this marker. I don't think we have enough evidence to suggest it was involved in either the Neolithic of West Asia or as a successful hunter-gatherer lineage from South Asia. Particularly as the arguably most important area for the interpretation of R2a's genesis - Central Asia - Has remained something of a data vacuum.

Humanist
12-22-2013, 08:41 PM
I am not yet finished with the below map of R1b frequencies, but it would be great to view some of these components (e.g. "Gedrosia") against historical maps such as the one below, which represents the Roman Empire in 117 CE (at its greatest extent).

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/266_map_rome_.png

newtoboard
12-22-2013, 08:59 PM
Actually, the Kalash seem to consistently be a total of ~40% for Y-DNA J and G combined if that's anything to go by. The problem is founder effects (likely from regional history) have skewed the frequencies somewhat; readers should note the wild disparity in Y-DNA frequencies across the Pamir mountain villages in Tajikistan despite most of them being composed of the same Y-DNA E, J, R1a1a, R2 and (likely) G lines (Wells et al.). Let's also not forget the numerous incursions and population shifts that have occurred since prehistory.

The situation with R2a-M124 isn't clear, but as mentioned elsewhere on the forum, L295 seems to be our best marker in differentiating this lineage. At present, both Europe and South Asia has a mixed status with this marker. I don't think we have enough evidence to suggest it was involved in either the Neolithic of West Asia or as a successful hunter-gatherer lineage from South Asia. Particularly as the arguably most important area for the interpretation of R2a's genesis - Central Asia - Has remained something of a data vacuum.

The Kalash fit the pattern but they are an exception. And for whatever reason G seems to be successful in mountain areas. Tajikistan seems to also be heaviy amount of the Caucasus component which correspond well to J2 and G lineages (not to say these cant also be associated with the gedrosia component).

Yea true. I just have my doubts R2 is some sort of Neolithic west Asian lineage. It's age likely makes it an UP lineage in Central Asia and a Mesolithic one in South Asia. I think it presence in west Asia is a conquence of the numerous central Asian movements southwest. And I can't ink of an autosomal component associated with it besides gedrosia.

L could on the other hand be correlated to a Neolithic movement for South Asia (and some regions of central asia) but probably not for all of Central Asia since those Neolithic cultures such as Jeitun and hissar seem to originate from the caspian regions of Iran and the South Caucasus.

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the warm climate of South Asia and portions of Central Asia make it unlikely any ancient DNA will ever be obtained from that area.

seferhabahir
12-23-2013, 06:09 AM
Here are my K12b results from last year...

34.69% Caucasus
24.44% Atlantic_Med
14.52% Southwest_Asian
13.68% North_European
5.72% Gedrosia
3.68% Northwest_African
1.20% Siberian
1.04% Southeast_Asian
0.73% East_African
0.18% Sub_Saharan
0.11% East_Asian
0.01% South_Asian

1 Ashkenazi_D 5.7432
2 Ashkenazi_Jews 5.8648
3 S_Italian_Sicilian_D 6.6873
4 Sicilian_D 6.9592
5 Sephardic_Jews 9.2076
6 Greek_D 9.9942
7 Morocco_Jews 11.8347
8 C_Italian_D 12.8633

Sapporo
12-23-2013, 09:04 AM
@seferhabahir

Are you Ashkenazi?

seferhabahir
12-23-2013, 09:15 AM
@seferhabahir

Are you Ashkenazi?

Yes. FTDNA Population Finder says 100% (0.01% margin of error). So do McDonald PCA plots. Would guess my K12b percentages are very typical for Ashkenazi.

Sapporo
12-23-2013, 09:42 AM
Yes. FTDNA Population Finder says 100% (0.01% margin of error). So do McDonald PCA plots. Would guess my K12b percentages are very typical for Ashkenazi.

Interesting. It seems that your Dodecad K12b results do line up well with the Ashkenazi averages on this spreadsheet and as the oracle points out. Although, you have slightly higher SW Asian and slightly lower Caucasus. I'm curious where the very minor Siberian and SE Asian come from though. It is within noise level though I suppose.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE&hl=en_US#gid=0

I was curious about how Ashkenazi's Northern Euro compared to Mizrahi Jews and you guys do seem to have higher Northern Euro.

the SUN child
12-23-2013, 03:17 PM
I'm Kurd Ezdi (Kurmanji) and here are my K12b results:

37.76 % - Caucasus
28.04 % - Gedrosia
14.71 % - Southwest_Asian
8.76 % - Atlantic_Med
4.87 % - North_European
2.69 % - South_Asian
1.76 % - Northwest_African
0.88 % - Siberian
0.32 % - Southeast_Asian
0.21 % - East_Asian


Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) ------------- Distance
1 Kurd (Dodecad) ------------------ 4.27
2 Iranians (Behar) ----------------- 4.42
3 Iranian (Dodecad) --------------- 5.04
4 Kurds (Yunusbayev) ------------- 5.46
5 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) ---- 10.61


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

"# Primary Population (source) + Secondary Population (source) @ Distance
01 86.8% Iranians (Behar) + 13.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 1.77
02 86.6% Iranians (Behar) + 13.4% Cypriots (Behar) @ 1.95
03 88.2% Iranians (Behar) + 11.8% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) @ 1.95
04 88.5% Iranians (Behar) + 11.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.98
05 88.2% Iranians (Behar) + 11.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 2.01
06 88.0% Iranians (Behar) + 12% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) @ 2.01
07 87.9% Iranians (Behar) + 12.1% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 2.12
08 89.6% Iranians (Behar) + 10.4% Greek (Dodecad) @ 2.34
09 90.4% Iranians (Behar) + 9.6% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 2.4
10 91.4% Iranians (Behar) + 8.6% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 2.62

seferhabahir
12-23-2013, 04:52 PM
Interesting. It seems that your Dodecad K12b results do line up well with the Ashkenazi averages on this spreadsheet and as the oracle points out. Although, you have slightly higher SW Asian and slightly lower Caucasus. I'm curious where the very minor Siberian and SE Asian come from though. It is within noise level though I suppose.

I was curious about how Ashkenazi's Northern Euro compared to Mizrahi Jews and you guys do seem to have higher Northern Euro.

One of my great-great-grandfathers is R2a, and that line may have some origins in Persia/Iran. R2a Ashkenazi haplotypes are connected to R2a Mizrachi haplotypes. Perhaps there is slight pull toward Southwest Asia from that. R2a Ashkenazi and R2a Mizrachi linkages were discussed a bit in the Rootsi et al. (2013) Ashkenazi Levite R1a Discussion Thread. My top 10 mixed-modes all show Sephardic ~85% mixed with various other populations at ~15% but I don't really know how best to interpret the mixed mode statistics.

Humanist
12-23-2013, 07:18 PM
I'm Kurd Ezdi (Kurmanji) and here are my K12b results:

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) ------------- Distance
1 Kurd (Dodecad) ------------------ 4.27
2 Iranians (Behar) ----------------- 4.42
3 Iranian (Dodecad) --------------- 5.04
4 Kurds (Yunusbayev) ------------- 5.46
5 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) ---- 10.61

If you are suggesting the possibility of a link between Kurds and Jews based on the position of Uzbekistan Jews in your list, in my opinion, I do not believe their position is very significant. The possible link between Kurds and Ashkenazi Jews suggested by the data in the Rootsi et al. paper, and R1a, however, is significant.

The Dodecad Assyrian population includes both West Assyrians (e.g. Tur Abdin, SE Turkey) and East Assyrians (such as myself).

My Dodecad K12b Single Population Sharing


1 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 3.8
2 Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) 5.67
3 Assyrian (Dodecad) 5.75
4 Iranian_Jews (Behar) 6.19
5 Georgia_Jews (Behar) 7
6 Iraq_Jews (Behar) 7.2

7 Armenians_15 (Yunusbayev) 10.07
8 Armenian (Dodecad) 10.24
9 Kurds (Yunusbayev) 10.73
10 Kurd (Dodecad) 11.66
11 Turks (Behar) 11.99

Silesian
12-23-2013, 07:41 PM
The Dodecad Assyrian population includes both West Assyrians (e.g. Tur Abdin, SE Turkey) and East Assyrians (such as myself).

My Dodecad K12b Single Population Sharing


1 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 3.8
2 Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) 5.67
3 Assyrian (Dodecad) 5.75
4 Iranian_Jews (Behar) 6.19
5 Georgia_Jews (Behar) 7
6 Iraq_Jews (Behar) 7.2

7 Armenians_15 (Yunusbayev) 10.07
8 Armenian (Dodecad) 10.24
9 Kurds (Yunusbayev) 10.73
10 Kurd (Dodecad) 11.66
11 Turks (Behar) 11.99

You list your Y-DNA as G1* and ethnicity as Assyrian; do you agree with the wiki entry regards Y-DNA G1.

Possible place of origin perhaps Iran


The highest reported concentration of G1 and its subgroups in a single country is in Iran, with next most frequent concentrations in neighboring countries to the west.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G1_%28Y-DNA%29

the SUN child
12-23-2013, 08:30 PM
If you are suggesting the possibility of a link between Kurds and Jews based on the position of Uzbekistan Jews in your list, in my opinion, I do not believe their position is very significant.Yeah, but still, after Kurds and Iranians, both West Iranic peoples, Jews from Central Asia are closest to me. Notice how close Iranians / Persians are to me. According to me this is a proof that Kurds and Persians were also in the past very close to each. And that's true, because the Medes were very close relatives to the ancient Persians.

Are you Assyrian or Chaldean? Because you have a lot 'Iranic' DNA in you. And as far as I know, Chaldeans were great allies to ancient Iranic peoples. Chaldeans were historically speaking maybe the only friends Kurds ever had and will have!

Humanist
12-23-2013, 08:38 PM
You list your Y-DNA as G1* and ethnicity as Assyrian; do you agree with the wiki entry regards Y-DNA G1.


Possible place of origin perhaps Iran


The highest reported concentration of G1 and its subgroups in a single country is in Iran, with next most frequent concentrations in neighboring countries to the west.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G1_%28Y-DNA%29

In our language, we call ourselves "Suraya." My language is linked to Mesopotamia, my genes are linked to Mesopotamia, my church is linked to Mesopotamia...so, yes, I translate my self-appellation as "Assyrian." In Akkadian, "Assyrian" was spelled "Assurayu" and "Surayu." *

And yes, I am G1.

As stated previously, and with the caveats regarding such speculation in mind, I believe the Persian Gulf region (including S Iran) is a possible place of origin of G1.

A previous post:



G1 is only myself and a man from Iraq. So, ~2%.

A couple of analyses of my haplotype:

From one of Palisto's 111 STR analyses:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/palisto_g_111_.jpg


From one of Marko's 111 STR trees:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/g1_111.jpg


Adding Ray Banks' comments on a 2012 study of relevance to the understanding of Y-DNA G1:


[From Ray Banks, Haplogroup G Project Administrator]

"New Study of India. A free new study by ArunKumar et al. shows a higher percentage of G among the southern Indian population than I have seen in earlier Indian studies. G is about 5% among the lowland men, but half that among hill farmers. Their time calculations are sure to be controversial because of the use of the Zhivotovsky formula. But G persons have some of the greatest variety of marker values in this region, and this suggests under any method a common ancestor of these men who lived before the beginning of agriculture. They do have in table S1 a list of 17-marker haplotypes matched to the haplogroup. Only M201 was used. But it is noted that about half the samples have 12 for DYS392. Previously this has been found only among G1 persons. If this is the case here, this finding suggests there may have been a migration in hunter gatherer days from the area of Iran(where G1 is most common) to this region. The highest percentage of G found was among the priestly caste of Iyengar Brahmins (a third), but only a small number of samples for this group. This particular group has some above average DYS393 values, which was seen also in our Indian samples determined to be P303 x L140."


The study: Population Differentiation of Southern Indian Male Lineages Correlates with Agricultural Expansions Predating the Caste System (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050269) Arunkumar et al.


There were 52 members of Y-DNA G observed in the above study. Among the 46 G men with values reported for DYS392, 26 men had the value 12 (diagnostic for G1-M285).

From the study:


The defining features for these MPGs were the following: (1) ‘Hill Tribe – Foragers’ (HTF), tribal populations sharing a foraging mode of subsistence and speaking their own Dravidian (Tamil/Malayalam) dialects; (2) ‘Hill Tribes – Cremating’ (HTC), tribes who cremate their dead, an unique socio-cultural feature among these tribal populations; (3) ‘Hill Tribes - Kannada-Speakers’ (HTK), hunter-gatherer tribes speaking the Kannada (Dravidian) languages; (4) ‘Scheduled Castes’, (SC), designated by the Indian Government as non-land owning laborers, ranked lowest in the Varna system; (5) ‘Dry Land Farmers’ (DLF), populations living by dry-land farming subsistence, cultivating crops (millets and grains) that do not require irrigation technology; (6) ‘Artisans and Warriors’ (AW), populations that are traditionally warriors or artisans of various kinds, and; (7) ‘Brahmin Related’ (BRH), following the Vedic traditions with a good knowledge on water management and wet land irrigation.

The 26 G men with DYS392=12 were distributed as follows, based on the above "codes":


76.9%--Dry-Land Farmers

11.5%--Artisan and Warriors
7.7%--Schedule Castes
3.8%--Brahmin related

0.0%--Hill Tribe Foragers
0.0%--Hill Tribe Cremating
0.0%--Hill Tribe Kannada

EDIT:

Forgot to add G1 (?) Y-DNA frequencies for the populations with men possessing DYS392=12:


3.9%--Dry-Land Farmers
1.3%--Schedule Castes
1.0%--Artisan and Warriors
0.7%--Brahmin related

EDIT 2:

A note on the term, "Scheduled Castes."

Britannica.com


untouchable, also called Dalit, officially Scheduled Caste, formerly Harijan, in traditional Indian society, the former name for any member of a wide range of low-caste Hindu groups and any person outside the caste system. The use of the term and the social disabilities associated with it were declared illegal in the constitutions adopted by the Constituent Assembly of India in 1949 and of Pakistan in 1953. Mahatma Gandhi called untouchables Harijans (“Children of the God Hari Vishnu,” or simply “Children of God”) and long worked for their emancipation. However, this name is now considered condescending and offensive. The term Dalit later came to be used, though that too occasionally has negative connotations. The official designation Scheduled Caste is the most common term now used in India. Kocheril Raman Narayanan, who served as president of India from 1997 to 2002, was the first member of a Scheduled Caste to occupy a high office in the country.


*

Dr. Simo Parpola (https://independent.academia.edu/SimoParpola)

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/suraya__.jpg

Hanna
12-23-2013, 08:42 PM
That is a lot more Mediterranian and SW Asian than I expected for Anatolia. For some reason east of the Zagros both components are lower but the Tarus didn't seem to be as effective a barrier (more so for SW asian as I believe Med could have its origins in Anatolia).

The average SW Asian for Turkish is 16.2% and Med is 28.5%.

Armenian average is, SW Asian 20.6% and Med 29.2%

Kurd average is, SW Asian 18.2%, med is 20.9%

Kurds have lower med compared to Turks and Armenians.
Turks have the lowest SW Asian input from the two.

Humanist
12-23-2013, 08:44 PM
Yeah, but still, after Kurds and Iranians, both West Iranic peoples, Jews from Central Asia are closest to me. Notice how close Iranians / Persians are to me. According to me this is a proof that Kurds and Persians were also in the past very close to each. And that's true, because the Medes were very close relatives to the ancient Persians.

Are you Assyrian or Chaldean? Because you have a lot 'Iranic' DNA in you. And as far as I know, Chaldeans were great allies to ancient Iranic peoples. Chaldeans were historically speaking maybe the only friends Kurds ever had and will have!

I am a member of the Assyrian Church of the East. The Chaldean Catholic Church began to break away from our church ~500 years ago.

What exactly do you mean by "Iranic?" If you mean significant recent Iranian ancestry, I would have to say probably not. If you mean ancient Iranian ancestry, then I would say that is a probability.

My Dodecad K12b values:


50.6 -- Caucasus
21.1 -- Gedrosia
18.4 -- Southwest_Asian
9.1 -- Atlantic_Med

0.5 -- East_Asian
0.2 -- South_Asian
0 -- Siberian
0 -- Northwest_African
0 -- Southeast_Asian
0 -- North_European
0 -- East_African
0 -- Sub_Saharan

Hanna
12-23-2013, 08:46 PM
I am a member of the Assyrian Church of the East. The Chaldean Catholic Church began to break away from our church ~500 years ago.

What exactly do you mean by "Iranic?" If you mean significant recent Iranian ancestry, I would have to say probably not. If you mean ancient Iranian ancestry, then I would say that is a probability.

My Dodecad K12b values:


50.6 -- Caucasus
21.1 -- Gedrosia
18.4 -- Southwest_Asian
9.1 -- Atlantic_Med

0.5 -- East_Asian
0.2 -- South_Asian
0 -- Siberian
0 -- Northwest_African
0 -- Southeast_Asian
0 -- North_European
0 -- East_African
0 -- Sub_Saharan
Is the North European an Iranic influence?

the SUN child
12-23-2013, 08:52 PM
I am a member of the Assyrian Church of the East. The Chaldean Catholic Church began to break away from our church ~500 years ago.

What exactly do you mean by "Iranic?" If you mean significant recent Iranian ancestry, I would have to say probably not. If you mean ancient Iranian ancestry, then I would say that is a probability.

My Dodecad K12b values:


50.6 -- Caucasus
21.1 -- Gedrosia
18.4 -- Southwest_Asian
9.1 -- Atlantic_Med

0.5 -- East_Asian
0.2 -- South_Asian
0 -- Siberian
0 -- Northwest_African
0 -- Southeast_Asian
0 -- North_European
0 -- East_African
0 -- Sub_SaharanI think that ALL modern Assyrians have some ancient 'Iranic' genes in them. But you have more Gedrosia than an average modern Assyrian. You said that your ancestors are from Iran, and that would actually make sense because of Gedrosia component in you.

Hanna
12-23-2013, 08:56 PM
I think that ALL modern Assyrians have some ancient 'Iranic' genes in them. But you have more Gedrosia than an average modern Assyrian. You said that your ancestors are from Iran, and that would actually make sense because of Gedrosia component in you.

Average for Assyria is 18.3%, not that big of a difference.

the SUN child
12-23-2013, 08:57 PM
The average SW Asian for Turkish is 16.2% and Med is 28.5%.

Armenian average is, SW Asian 20.6% and Med 29.2%

Kurd average is, SW Asian 18.2%, med is 20.9%

Kurds have lower med compared to Turks and Armenians.
Turks have the lowest SW Asian input from the two.Not true. According to K12b, average SW Asian in Turks is 10.3% and in Kurds 14%. Average Atlantic_Med in Turks is 13.2% and in Kurds 5.9%.

Average Gedrosia in Turks is 13.4% average Gedrosia in Kurds is 28.2+%.

Hanna
12-23-2013, 08:59 PM
Not true. According to K12b, average SW Asian in Turks is 10.3% and in Kurds 14%. Average Atlantic_Med in Turks is 13.2% and in Kurds 5.9%.

The test I was talking about is Globe13, not k12b.

http://dodecad.blogspot.ae/2012/10/globe13-calculator.html

DMXX
12-23-2013, 09:01 PM
I think that ALL modern Assyrians have some ancient 'Iranic' genes in them. But you have more Gedrosia than an average modern Assyrian. You said that your ancestors are from Iran, and that would actually make sense because of Gedrosia component in you.

Inversely, I'm quite certain many Iranians and Kurds have some ancient Assyrian and/or Jewish ancestry. Despite the pronounced overall differences in our genomes, there is a lot of common component scores in this part of West Eurasia (Anatolia, Caucasus, Iranian plateau) and the tumultuous history of the region combined with evolving ethnic identities/movements (e.g. Parsak->Achaemanid Persian->Sassanid Persian->Modern Persians) or maintained contacts across numerous groups, means we all have something "interesting" in the background.

A simplified but historically defined global view of the entire region predicates this opinion, as well as categorically dismissing assertions that any modern group in the region - Be it Assyrian or Kurd, let alone Persian or Turk - Is "pure" anything. This is a general point and not one referring to anything in particular from your post. There's internal diversity that cannot be ignored in any one group.

the SUN child
12-23-2013, 09:07 PM
The test I was talking about is Globe13, not k12b.

http://dodecad.blogspot.ae/2012/10/globe13-calculator.html
Is this calc the same as Dodecad V3 on Gedmatch?

If so, then this are my results:


40.97 - West_Asian
22.48 - Mediterranean
14.73 - Southwest_Asian
09.86 - South_Asian
06.32 - West_European
03.57 - East_European
01.00 - Northeast_Asian
00.56 - East_African
00.51 - Northwest_African


Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Kurd (Xing) 1.72
2 Kurd (Dodecad) 3.48
3 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 4.58
4 Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) 7.69
5 Iranians (Behar) 8.6
6 Iranian_Jews (Behar) 8.62
7 Georgia_Jews (Behar) 9.75
8 Iranian (Dodecad) 10.3
9 Iraq_Jews (Behar) 10.88

Hanna
12-23-2013, 09:11 PM
Is this calc the same as Dodecad V3 on Gedmatch?

If so, then this are my results:


40.97 - West_Asian
22.48 - Mediterranean
14.73 - Southwest_Asian
09.86 - South_Asian
06.32 - West_European
03.57 - East_European
01.00 - Northeast_Asian
00.56 - East_African
00.51 - Northwest_African


Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Kurd (Xing) 1.72
2 Kurd (Dodecad) 3.48
3 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 4.58
4 Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) 7.69
5 Iranians (Behar) 8.6
6 Iranian_Jews (Behar) 8.62
7 Georgia_Jews (Behar) 9.75
8 Iranian (Dodecad) 10.3
9 Iraq_Jews (Behar) 10.88

The calculator is not on gedmatch.

What is you gedmatch ID?

newtoboard
12-23-2013, 09:14 PM
Is the North European an Iranic influence?

Probably not for Anatolians who could have had obtained this component through Greeks, Ancient Anatolian IE speakers and from Central Asian Turks.

the SUN child
12-23-2013, 09:18 PM
Inversely, I'm quite certain many Iranians and Kurds have some ancient Assyrian and/or Jewish ancestry. Despite the pronounced overall differences in our genomes, there is a lot of common component scores in this part of West Eurasia (Anatolia, Caucasus, Iranian plateau) and the tumultuous history of the region combined with evolving ethnic identities/movements (e.g. Parsak->Achaemanid Persian->Sassanid Persian->Modern Persians) or maintained contacts across numerous groups, means we all have something "interesting" in the background.

A simplified but historically defined global view of the entire region predicates this opinion, as well as categorically dismissing assertions that any modern group in the region - Be it Assyrian or Kurd, let alone Persian or Turk - Is "pure" anything. This is a general point and not one referring to anything in particular from your post. There's internal diversity that cannot be ignored in any one group.Sure, there's some Assyrian, Chaldean and Jewish genes in Kurds. But why Persians? Persians were never so close to Assyrians as ancient Medes. The Medes lived between the Persians and Assyrians and formed a some kind of a buffer. And still Kurds and Persians are very close to each other and almost the same amount of components.

Also, 'Iranic' Umman Manda people dominated the Northern Mesopotamia and were Always a majority in that part of the world. the amount of the Kurdic race / Iranics were alwasy bigger than the amount of the Assyrians. That why I'm sure that Kurdic race influenced Assyrians race much more than vice versa. in that part of the world at that time (proto)-Kurdic peoples formed a much bigger majority than Semitic peoples.


And always remember that the MAJORITY has always bigger impact on minority than vice versa! And the population of proto-Kurdic peoples in Kurdistan was not so small to be vastly genetically influenced by other races.

the SUN child
12-23-2013, 09:21 PM
Probably not for Anatolians who could have had obtained this component through Greeks, Ancient Anatolian IE speakers and from Central Asian Turks.I think, European component in Kurds is from the ancient Hellenic races, Cimmerians & Scytho-Sarmatians. My best guess is that the Cimmerians & Scytho-Sarmatians and 'Iranized' natives from Northern Caucasus / Black Sea.

newtoboard
12-23-2013, 09:24 PM
I think, European component in Kurds is from the ancient Hellenic races, Cimmerians & Scytho-Sarmatians. My best guess is that the Cimmerians & Scytho-Sarmatians and 'Iranized' natives from Northern Caucasus / Black Sea.

Cimmerians and Scythio-Sarmatians aren't "Iranized". West Asian Iranian speakers are. It is quite commonly accepted that Proto Indo-Iranian was spoken in the Poltavka or Andronovo cultures.

Do you think it is possible that all other IE language branches originate in Europe yet this one originates in Asia?

the SUN child
12-23-2013, 09:26 PM
The calculator is not on gedmatch.

What is you gedmatch ID?M040708 is my ID on gedmatch.

Hanna
12-23-2013, 09:26 PM
Probably not for Anatolians who could have had obtained this component through Greeks, Ancient Anatolian IE speakers and from Central Asian Turks.

My North Euro score is definitely Turkic but I don't know where my maternal side got the North Euro from since they don't score Asian like me? I doubt it's Greek influence.

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 51.33
2 Gedrosia 16.89
3 Atlantic_Med 10.93
4 Southwest_Asian 9.08
5 North_European 6.08
6 Siberian 2.92
7 East_Asian 2.78


--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Turks @ 6.392
2 Turkish @ 7.521
3 Armenians_15 @ 8.355
4 Armenian @ 8.422
5 Armenians @ 9.679
6 Azerbaijan_Jews @ 11.237
7 Georgia_Jews @ 11.444
8 Assyrian @ 12.001
9 Uzbekistan_Jews @ 12.838
10 Iranian_Jews @ 16.104
223 iterations.



Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Armenians +50% Turks @ 3.196
2 50% Armenians_15 +50% Turkish @ 3.767
3 50% Armenians +50% Turkish @ 3.814
4 50% Armenian +50% Turks @ 3.867
5 50% Armenians_15 +50% Turks @ 3.881
6 50% Armenian +50% Turkish @ 4.142
7 50% Azerbaijan_Jews +50% Turkish @ 5.861
8 50% Azerbaijan_Jews +50% Turks @ 6.143
9 50% Assyrian +50% Turkish @ 6.354
10 50% Turks +50% Turks @ 6.392

My aunt


# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 52.77
2 Gedrosia 20.35
3 Southwest_Asian 11.54
4 Atlantic_Med 9.43
5 North_European 4.62
6 Northwest_African 1.29


--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Armenians_15 @ 4.743
2 Armenian @ 5.762
3 Azerbaijan_Jews @ 7.636
4 Georgia_Jews @ 8.408
5 Assyrian @ 8.614
6 Armenians @ 8.645
7 Uzbekistan_Jews @ 10.408
8 Turks @ 10.533
9 Turkish @ 12.272
10 Iranian_Jews @ 12.779
223 iterations.



Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Armenians +50% Kurds @ 3.334
2 50% Armenians +50% Uzbekistan_Jews @ 3.785
3 50% Armenians +50% Kurd @ 3.953
4 50% Armenians +50% Iranian @ 4.610
5 50% Armenians_15 +50% Armenians_15 @ 4.743
6 50% Armenians_15 +50% Turks @ 5.143
7 50% Armenian +50% Armenians_15 @ 5.178
8 50% Armenian +50% Kurds @ 5.366
9 50% Armenians +50% Azerbaijan_Jews @ 5.508
10 50% Armenians_15 +50% Uzbekistan_Jews @ 5.536

the SUN child
12-23-2013, 09:29 PM
Cimmerians and Scythio-Sarmatians aren't "Iranized". West Asian Iranian speakers are. It is quite commonly accepted that Proto Indo-Iranian was spoken in the Poltavka or Andronovo cultures.

Do you think it is possible that all other IE language branches originate in Europe yet this one originates in Asia?Iranian language doesn't belong in that part of the world, while Kurds speak a very pure West Iranian language, VERY close to proto-Iranian, Avestan. How is it possible that Kurds are 'Iranized' by races who don't even SPEAK and NEVER spoke Iranian language as native language.

Kurdish is one of the 'purest' Iranic languages nowadays.

Please next time, don't tell me who is a FAKE Iranic and who is not! Just stop with this b*llcrap!


Some ignorant folks have really strange and phony ideas!

Humanist
12-23-2013, 10:03 PM
I think that ALL modern Assyrians have some ancient 'Iranic' genes in them. But you have more Gedrosia than an average modern Assyrian. You said that your ancestors are from Iran, and that would actually make sense because of Gedrosia component in you.

As stated previously, Dodecad Assyrians include West Assyrians (~ Tur Abdin, SE Turkey). West Assyrians have lower "Gedrosia" values than East Assyrians. But, yes, I have a higher "Gedrosia" value, all things considered. Compare my "Gedrosia" values to the two southern Iraqi Mandaeans:


HUM MAN1 MAN2
21.1 22 21.6

Tomasso29
12-24-2013, 05:45 AM
I think that ALL modern Assyrians have some ancient 'Iranic' genes in them. But you have more Gedrosia than an average modern Assyrian. You said that your ancestors are from Iran, and that would actually make sense because of Gedrosia component in you.

Modern Assyrians LIKE their ancestors, are mixed. If you read history, there's no such thing as an Assyrian ethnicity, it's a national term and became an ethnic one after the acceptance of Christianity due to the limited mixing with the local populations. Specially after the dominance of Islam in the region. I would say for the past 1500 years, the modern Assyrians have a less diverse genetic pool in comparison to their mixed neighbors such as the Arabs, Kurds, Turks, etc.

parasar
12-24-2013, 06:24 AM
Modern Assyrians LIKE their ancestors, are mixed. If you read history, there's no such thing as an Assyrian ethnicity, it's a national term and became an ethnic one after the acceptance of Christianity due to the limited mixing with the local populations. Specially after the dominance of Islam in the region. I would say for the past 1500 years, the modern Assyrians have a less diverse genetic pool in comparison to their mixed neighbors such as the Arabs, Kurds, Turks, etc.

And even in the fifth century BC there were two Assyrians - south middle-eastern and upper middle-eastern (Nineveh) and upper asiatic.

Tomasso29
12-24-2013, 06:29 AM
And even in the fifth century BC there were two Assyrians - south middle-eastern and upper middle-eastern (Nineveh) and upper asiatic.

If you mean South Mesopotamia, they called themselves Babylonians, though ancient Assyria and Babylonia were very similar.

Humanist
12-24-2013, 06:33 AM
And even in the fifth century BC there were two Assyrians - south middle-eastern and upper middle-eastern (Nineveh) and upper asiatic.

Apologies, parasar. Care to explain precisely what you are saying? As far as we know, there was no "Nineveh" in the 5th century.


[W]hen Nineveh fell to the Babylonian and Median armies in 612 BC the complex quickly ceased to function properly as no-one was financing or organising the regular upkeep that was necessary. This collapse contributed to the rapid abandonment of the city because without artificial irrigation it could not provide a home for its many inhabitants. Nineveh soon became a ghost town.

Karen Radner, '[I]Nineveh, Assyria's capital in the 7th century BC', Knowledge and Power, Higher Education Academy, 2011 [http://knp.prs.heacademy.ac.uk/essentials/nineveh/]

parasar
12-24-2013, 07:27 AM
Apologies, parasar. Care to explain precisely what you are saying? As far as we know, there was no "Nineveh" in the 5th century.



Karen Radner, 'Nineveh, Assyria's capital in the 7th century BC', Knowledge and Power, Higher Education Academy, 2011 [http://knp.prs.heacademy.ac.uk/essentials/nineveh/]

Regarding the fifth century I was thinking about Herodotus' comment:
http://books.google.com/books?id=f9w9AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA49

newtoboard
12-24-2013, 02:05 PM
Iranian language doesn't belong in that part of the world, while Kurds speak a very pure West Iranian language, VERY close to proto-Iranian, Avestan. How is it possible that Kurds are 'Iranized' by races who don't even SPEAK and NEVER spoke Iranian language as native language.

Kurdish is one of the 'purest' Iranic languages nowadays.

Please next time, don't tell me who is a FAKE Iranic and who is not! Just stop with this b*llcrap!


Some ignorant folks have really strange and phony ideas!

Have you read anything on the topic? How about The Origin of the Indo-Iranians by Elena E. Kuz'mina?

Also there is no such thing as a pure language. And Kurdish just like every other language has a layer from older languages in the region (likely Hurrian or Uratian) in this case. And how do Iranian languages not belong in that part of the world when the diversity of Iranian languages was higher in Central Asia and Eastern Europe?

Humanist
12-24-2013, 07:27 PM
Kurdish just like every other language has a layer from older languages in the region (likely Hurrian or Uratian) in this case.

I have read about this for Armenian*, but not Kurdish. Can you provide me with a link, or links, so that I can read about it?

*
The Urartian Substratum in Armenian (http://www.science.org.ge/2-2/Grepin.pdf)
John A. C. Greppin

EDIT:

I have not read a lot about Kurdish languages, so I am not sure how current the below bit from Wikipedia is:


The present state of knowledge about Kurdish allows, at least roughly, drawing the approximate borders of the areas where the main ethnic core of the speakers of the contemporary Kurdish dialects was formed. The most argued hypothesis on the localisation of the ethnic territory of the Kurds remains D.N. Mackenzie’s theory, proposed in the early 1960s (Mackenzie 1961). Developing the ideas of P. Tedesco (1921: 255) and regarding the common phonetic isoglosses shared by Kurdish, Persian, and Baluchi, D.N. Mackenzie concluded that the speakers of these three languages may once have been in closer contact. He has tried to reconstruct the alleged Persian-Kurdish-Baluchi linguistic unity presumably in the central parts of Iran. According to Mackenzie's theory, the Persians (or Proto-Persians) occupied the province of Fars in the southwest (proceeding from the assumption that the Achaemenids spoke Persian), the Baluchis (Proto-Baluchis) inhabited the central areas of Western Iran, and the Kurds (Proto-Kurds), in the wording of G. Windfuhr (1975: 459), lived either in northwestern Luristan or in the province of Isfahan.[14] Windfuhr identified Kurdish dialects as Parthian, albeit with a Median substratum.[15]

A possible Median substratum is not mutually exclusive with a Hurrian/Urartian substratum, of course. But, my original question stands, regarding support in academia for such a possibility.

seferhabahir
12-30-2013, 01:22 AM
Here are my K12b results from last year...

34.69% Caucasus
24.44% Atlantic_Med
14.52% Southwest_Asian
13.68% North_European
5.72% Gedrosia
3.68% Northwest_African
1.20% Siberian
1.04% Southeast_Asian
0.73% East_African
0.18% Sub_Saharan
0.11% East_Asian
0.01% South_Asian


I decided to run five of my more recently tested Ashkenazi cousins through the Dodecad K12b calculator on my PC and got the following ranges for the six of us:

33.13 - 38.10% Caucasus
21.22 - 25.33% Atlantic_Med
12.25 - 14.52% Southwest_Asian
11.76 - 15.44% North_European
3.96 - 7.13% Gedrosia
2.19 - 4.57% Northwest_African
0.00 - 1.20% Siberian
0.05 - 1.04% Southeast_Asian
0.02 - 1.04% East_African
0.00 - 0.39% Sub_Saharan
0.06 - 2.22% East_Asian
0.02 - 1.55% South_Asian

The bottom numbers might be noise, but I see the Gedrosian (an average of 5.48%) is higher than the two Ashkenazi test groups, perhaps indication of some Sephardi ancestry. The three cousins on my R2 line all have more than 2.00% for East Asian (significantly higher than the Ashkenazi groups at 0.50% and Sephardi at 0.00%). Didn't run any of them through the EEF/WHG/ANE because their data aren't in GEDmatch, but would imagine they would all come out the same as me.

Humanist
01-05-2014, 08:54 AM
Much has been said on the various fora, over the years, regarding the level of "African" in Arab populations, as compared to neighboring minority populations. Another interesting question is the source (or sources) of the "North European" component(s) detected in Arab populations. Any ideas on its origin? Indo-Iranian speaking peoples? Crusaders? European slaves? Or, is there any argument that it is a native ancestral component? I am also including N and E African populations in the below list of Globe 13 "North European" values of many of the ME populations included in the Globe 13 run:

Blue = ME
Green = N Africa
Red = E Africa


North_European
7 Moroccan_D

6 Algerian_D

5 Lebanese

3 Bedouin
3 Syrians

2 Moroccans
2 Saudis

1 Jordanians
1 Yemenese
1 Palestinian
1 Druze

0 Yemen_Jews
0 Samaritan_All
0 Ethiopians
0 Egyptians
0 Somali_D
0 Mozabite
0 Iraq_Jews
0 Iranian_Jews
0 Assyrian_D

newtoboard
01-05-2014, 01:18 PM
I doubt the Northern European component is native. I suppose the possibility of some Mesolithic Iberian making it to North Africa is possible and there is some mtDNA U5 to correlate to that. Some is probably crusader and roman/Greek in origin given European subclades of r1b occur in North Africa and the Levant. Gulf Arabs have both R1a Z93 and Z283 so both Indo Iranian and Slavic ancestry is likely.

More interesting is whether any of the Northern European component in South Asia/Central Asia/Iran predates Indo Iranians. Those areas lie just south of the Mesolithic corridor that stretched from Iberia to Siberia. And given the recent R* finding in Siberia and the presence of upstream R1 clades and R2 in those regions it might be possible.

Ignis90
01-06-2014, 01:12 PM
Globe13 is far from being the best run of Dienekes. That's one of the reasons it didn't even make it to gedmatch.

The northern European component in some Levantine populations is very likely recent, since some Levantines don't score any. The funny things is it's the muslims who have more affinity to it, not the Christians (that's what we see for Lebanon at least). It probably has to do with the endogamy of minorities and the cosmopolitan nature of muslim society (muslims seem to be also slightly more African and East/South Asian than christians).


In Berbers, the North European component most likely represents shared paleolithic ancestry with Europeans as suggested by the European-like mtdna landscape of Berbers (H1, H3, H7, V, HV0, U5b etc) and the clustering with Western mediterranean European populations when it comes HLA markers. In most runs, Berbers are usually homogenous.

Shaikorth
04-01-2014, 12:13 PM
The difference between globe4 results for La Braņa-1 using the low quality 2012 sample and the higher quality sample of January's Olalde et al study.

Dienekes got this result in 2012:
Bra1 - European: 98.8, Asian 0, African 1.2, Amerindian 0

Bra1 with the better sequence: European 80.69, Asian 3.56, African 3.93, Amerindian 11.82

The "European" here is a Mediterranean/Near-eastern component peaking in Sardinians, and higher in Georgians than i.e British. The "Amerindian"/"Asian" levels correspond to the Northeast Euro - likeness of La Braņa observed by the Olalde study's PCA and Eurogenes. I'm not sure about the African, Eurogenes calculators and various PCA's don't seem to pick it up so it might be due to noise and/or calculator effect.

A quality sequence of the Ajv-hunter gatherers from Sweden would probably change their results in a similar way, though perhaps not as radically. As I understand, quality of those samples is between old and new Braņa-1 sequences, and their globe4 results reflected that.

Neolithic Oetzi's results for comparison: European 94.5, Asian 1.9, African 2.7, Amerindian 0.8

Arbogan
05-18-2014, 05:00 AM
Dienekes did some silly things with dodecad. Why he discluded dodecad-iranians and caucasians from the his middle-east IBD runs and why he put them in analysis for turkics, slavs and other peoples is beyond me. I'm also disappointed with the fact there was no IBD comparing semitic speaking west-asians and non-semitic speaking west-asians(only one with the irrelevant balkanians)

LUKE33
05-18-2014, 07:30 AM
Dienekes did some silly things with dodecad. Why he discluded dodecad-iranians and caucasians from the his middle-east IBD runs and why he put them in analysis for turkics, slavs and other peoples is beyond me. I'm also disappointed with the fact there was no IBD comparing semitic speaking west-asians and non-semitic speaking west-asians(only one with the irrelevant balkanians)

Have you ever asked him why he did this ?

Arbogan
05-18-2014, 08:51 AM
Have you ever asked him why he did this ?

I have no idea. I wasn't as active and observant in 2012 as I was in 2013 and as I am in 2014, otherwise I would've have contacted him about it. By that time I caught up, it was too late, he had abruptly quit updating and adding to his dodecad project, in december 2012. I don't think we'll see any updates of dodecad stuff in the future. It's unfortunate as it was the best project out, and we learned alot from it(specially the IBD runs, the component his K12B). I just think it's silly that he'd lump populations based on linguistic affiliation. It's fairly obvious and apparent that semitic-speaking west-asians are more related to their non-semitic speaking cousins from turkey, caucasus, Iran, than the former being related to balkanians(save for turks). I honestly think he was trying to find a link between indo-european descendent the ionian greeks, turks, caucasians and iranics.

I just think it was silly of him to disclude iranians, kurds, caucasians and turks, when doing his afroasitic iBD run. We'd have had a better idea of gene flow between north-west-asia and south-west asia, had he done otherwise. And it would have answered alot of questions about the deeper affinities, aswell mixing across linguistic and arbitrary cultural identities. As we know that areas like anatolia and mesopotamia, and the levant have been melting-pots for north, south and east immigration.

LUKE33
05-18-2014, 09:05 AM
I have no idea. I wasn't as active and observant in 2012 as I was in 2013 and as I am in 2014, otherwise I would've have contacted him about it. By that time i caught up, it was too late

No harm in asking him even today, via his blog - http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/ ( his e-mail is at the bottom of the page )


I don't think we'll see any updates of dodecad stuff in the future. It's unforunate as it's quite a good project,

Let us see about that .....

Arbogan
05-18-2014, 04:26 PM
Much has been said on the various fora, over the years, regarding the level of "African" in Arab populations, as compared to neighboring minority populations. Another interesting question is the source (or sources) of the "North European" component(s) detected in Arab populations. Any ideas on its origin? Indo-Iranian speaking peoples? Crusaders? European slaves? Or, is there any argument that it is a native ancestral component? I am also including N and E African populations in the below list of Globe 13 "North European" values of many of the ME populations included in the Globe 13 run:

Blue = ME
Green = N Africa
Red = E Africa


North_European
7 Moroccan_D

6 Algerian_D

5 Lebanese

3 Bedouin
3 Syrians

2 Moroccans
2 Saudis

1 Jordanians
1 Yemenese
1 Palestinian
1 Druze

0 Yemen_Jews
0 Samaritan_All
0 Ethiopians
0 Egyptians
0 Somali_D
0 Mozabite
0 Iraq_Jews
0 Iranian_Jews
0 Assyrian_D

Its definitely not real. Its the broken up atlantic med or neolithic med showing up as north euro.

Humanist
07-02-2014, 06:43 AM
Its definitely not real. Its the broken up atlantic med or neolithic med showing up as north euro.

I do not know how you can definitively state that.

Shaikorth
07-02-2014, 09:37 AM
Let's recap. The North European component in these calculators is genetic drift of modern northeast europeans. Dodecad K12a and K12b results (both population averages and individual member results) for instance show this clearly as it peaks in Finns and Lithuanians.

However is it "ancient"? That's not all that certain. La Braņa's low-quality 2012 sequence showed it at higher levels than the better 2014 sequence. There's been high recombination since those times, and "modern" samples produce "modern" components. In Eurogenes K13 and K15 calculators, La Braņa showed a more balanced distribution of "european" components than modern northeast or northwest europeans tend to.

In any case it's unlikely that ancient genomes could have received admixture from modern populations. This means that those components in them are "shared ancestry", or that many of these components created by modern samples contain some mesolithic ancestry. Further, the differences between various components are not that high, so recombination can cause them to appear in unlikely places. Atlantic and mediterranean are just mixes of older stuff in different proportions, and their recombination can cause a related component like north euro to appear. This is likely what happened with Arabs.

lgmayka
07-02-2014, 01:21 PM
Atlantic and mediterranean are just mixes of older stuff in different proportions, and their recombination can cause a related component like north euro to appear. This is likely what happened with Arabs.
yDNA suggests the contrary. R1a1a is rather plentiful in Arab populations. And not just Z93, either--Z282* has some frequency, and we have even found a very unusual Z280 haplotype (kit 161602). What autosomal calculators register as North(east) European may be a reflection of some ancient (direct or indirect) Pontic Steppe introgression.

Shaikorth
07-02-2014, 01:59 PM
yDNA suggests the contrary. R1a1a is rather plentiful in Arab populations. And not just Z93, either--Z282* has some frequency, and we have even found a very unusual Z280 haplotype (kit 161602). What autosomal calculators register as North(east) European may be a reflection of some ancient (direct or indirect) Pontic Steppe introgression.

The level Bedouins and Saudis show is like 2-3%, and Druze have 1%. This could even be just noise. Lebanese have 5% but gauging the age of that is hard.

On the other hand many homogenous groups (Middle Eastern Jews, Samaritans, Assyrians) show 0%. Assyrians for instance have ANE which is supposed to belong in the steppe package, but since it doesn't show as North European for them, it's questionable whether it will for other Middle Easterners.

Humanist
07-02-2014, 06:14 PM
Atlantic and mediterranean are just mixes of older stuff in different proportions, and their recombination can cause a related component like north euro to appear. This is likely what happened with Arabs.

That is possible, but it ignores the reality of what Razib Khan referred to below in his article, Assyrians & Finns in a worldwide genetic context:


Because of the social constraints which Christians were placed under within the Muslim Middle East prior to the modern era these communities may be particular informative as to the demographic impact of the Arab conquests, and the cosmopolitan and international nature of the Muslim polities and how they reshaped the genetics of the Middle East.

Shaikorth
07-02-2014, 06:53 PM
If we assume Saudis and Bedouins got their trace of North European component due to changes brought about by Islam, it's not representing any truly old ancestral component of Arabs. That was my main point. If it's there due to recombination, outliers (we don't know the results of each individual Saudi or Bedouin I guess) or Islamic policies it's "fake" or recent. It's lacking in many Middle Eastern populations that have more ANE, so that can not be the reason.

In any case, if it's real (not created by recombination) and came about within the last couple thousand years it should be picked up by ALDER, if someone wants to test.

Humanist
07-02-2014, 06:58 PM
If we assume Saudis and Bedouins got their trace of North European component due to changes brought about by Islam, it's not representing any truly old ancestral component of Arabs. That was my main point.

Apologies then. We are in agreement.

DMXX
07-02-2014, 06:59 PM
Recalling the recent history of the region, I wouldn't be surprised if those Saudi Arabians or Levant Arabs with a degree of North European admixture actually derived it from groups such as Iranians or North Caucasians (I have Circassians in mind here, many of which live scattered across countries like Syria, Jordan and Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_diaspora)).

There may be ancient explanations for the marginal North European component admixture (e.g. Hittites, Mitanni), but the population interactions that followed shouldn't be ignored. I suppose one way of establishing the source would be IBD segments; those Arabs with recent (~500 years) North Caucasian or Iranian admixture would show greater sharing than their counterparts with less than a percent of North European.

Humanist
07-02-2014, 07:14 PM
Recalling the recent history of the region, I wouldn't be surprised if those Saudi Arabians or Levant Arabs with a degree of North European admixture actually derived it from groups such as Iranians or North Caucasians (I have Circassians in mind here, many of which live scattered across countries like Syria, Jordan and Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_diaspora)).

There may be ancient explanations for the marginal North European component admixture (e.g. Hittites, Mitanni), but the population interactions that followed shouldn't be ignored. I suppose one way of establishing the source would be IBD segments; those Arabs with recent (~500 years) North Caucasian or Iranian admixture would show greater sharing than their counterparts with less than a percent of North European.

Some bits from a book on the topic:



The slave population of the Islamic world was recruited from many lands. In the earliest days, slaves came principally from the newly conquered countries -- from the Fertile Crescent and Egypt, from Iran and North Africa, from Central Asia, India, and Spain...

Central and East European slaves, generally known as Saqaliba (i.e., Slavs), were imported by three main routes: overland via France and Spain, from Eastern Europe via the Crimea, and by sea across the Mediterranean. They were mostly but not exclusively Slavs.

....

The slave needs of the Ottoman Empire were now met from new sources. One of these was the Caucasians -- the Georgians, Circassians, and related peoples, famous for providing beautiful women and brave and handsome men. The former figured prominently in the harems, the latter in the armies and administrations of the Ottoman and also the Persian states. The supply of these was reduced but not terminated by the Russian conquest of the Caucasus in the early years of the nineteenth century. Another source of supply was the Tatar khanate of the Crimea, whose raiders every year rode far and wide in Central and Eastern Europe, carrying off great numbers of male and female slaves. These were brought to the Crimea and shipped thence to the slave markets in Istanbul and other Turkish cities. This trade came to an end with the Russian annexation of the Crimea in 1783 and the extinction of Tatar independence.


Source: Bernard Lewis. Race and Slavery in the Middle East

Oxford Univ Press 1994. (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/lewis1.asp)

everest59
07-02-2014, 08:30 PM
If we assume Saudis and Bedouins got their trace of North European component due to changes brought about by Islam, it's not representing any truly old ancestral component of Arabs. That was my main point. If it's there due to recombination, outliers (we don't know the results of each individual Saudi or Bedouin I guess) or Islamic policies it's "fake" or recent. It's lacking in many Middle Eastern populations that have more ANE, so that can not be the reason.

In any case, if it's real (not created by recombination) and came about within the last couple thousand years it should be picked up by ALDER, if someone wants to test.

Using 1-ref analysis, I got 8.9% plus minus 3.2%. What I did was, I used Bedouins as admixpop, with Lithuanians as the reference pop.

Using 2-ref analysis with Bedouins as a mix of Samaritians and Lithuanians, the test actually failed. However, I will say the test was not completely useless. The standard error is high, but it found two numbers. For Samaritian admixture in Bedouins, it found 17 plus minus 14 generations. For Lithuanian admixture, it found 38 generations plus minus 26. No question, the error rate is high.

Sein
07-02-2014, 08:44 PM
Using 1-ref analysis, I got 8.9% plus minus 3.2%. What I did was, I used Bedouins as admixpop, with Lithuanians as the reference pop.

Using 2-ref analysis with Bedouins as a mix of Samaritians and Lithuanians, the test actually failed. However, I will say the test was not completely useless. The standard error is high, but it found two numbers. For Samaritian admixture in Bedouins, it found 17 plus minus 14 generations. For Lithuanian admixture, it found 38 generations plus minus 26. No question, the error rate is high.

This is certainly interesting, but I'm not really quite sure if this maps unto actual northern European admixture. When you tried this on the HGDP Pashtuns, you got 66% Lithuanian admixture for them (back in April: "Alder can calculate admixture % using just 1 reference samples. I tried computing admixture % for Pashtuns using Georgians, Sindhis and then Lithuanians. The admixture using Lithuanian was a whopping 66%, whereas the other two were in the mid 30's..."). I think the HGDP Pashtuns aren't around 70% northern European. Rather, I'm thinking this could mean that the HGDP Pashtuns are around 70% ANE+UHG, with the rest of their ancestry being mostly "Basal Eurasian", followed by some minor ENA admixture.

I'm assuming the same for these Bedouins, it might possibly mean that these Bedouins are around 9% ANE+UHG, with the rest of their ancestry being mostly "Basal Eurasian", followed by some minor Sub-Saharan African admixture. Of course, it could be real northern European admixture, nothing is certain.

Perhaps, a good test of this would be to see if the HGDP Pashtuns still turn out to be 60%-70% Lithuanian? With these methods, results do fluctuate.

everest59
07-02-2014, 08:51 PM
See, now Yoruba admixture using 1-ref has more certainty based on standard error. 5.3 % Yoruba admixture with only 0.3% standard error.
However, 2-ref test with Bedouins as a mix of Samaritians and Yoruba failed. What failed was the Samaritian;Bedouin 1-ref test, which resulted in 2-ref failure.

Shaikorth
07-02-2014, 08:51 PM
Using 1-ref analysis, I got 8.9% plus minus 3.2%. What I did was, I used Bedouins as admixpop, with Lithuanians as the reference pop.

Using 2-ref analysis with Bedouins as a mix of Samaritians and Lithuanians, the test actually failed. However, I will say the test was not completely useless. The standard error is high, but it found two numbers. For Samaritian admixture in Bedouins, it found 17 plus minus 14 generations. For Lithuanian admixture, it found 38 generations plus minus 26. No question, the error rate is high.

Bedouins are probably purer Basal Eurasian than Samaritians are if we discount the effects of recent SSA, which also factors in when programs are used. So no surprise that test failed. What was the Z for first test?

everest59
07-02-2014, 08:54 PM
This is certainly interesting, but I'm not really quite sure if this maps unto actual northern European admixture. When you tried this on the HGDP Pashtuns, you got 66% Lithuanian admixture for them. I think the HGDP Pashtuns aren't around 70% northern European. Rather, I'm thinking this could mean that the HGDP Pashtuns are around 70% ANE+UHG, with the rest of their ancestry being mostly "Basal Eurasian", followed by some minor ENA admixture.

I'm assuming the same for these Bedouins, it might possibly mean that these Bedouins are around 9% ANE+UHG, with the rest of their ancestry being mostly "Basal Eurasian", followed by some minor Sub-Saharan African admixture. Of course, it could be real northern European admixture, nothing is certain.

Perhaps, a good test of this would be to see if the HGDP Pashtuns still turn out to be 60%-70% Lithuanian? With these methods, results do fluctuate.

Well, I just tried 1-ref test on Pashtuns (Lithuanians as the ref-pep). It did not work very well. 2.1% plus minus 34.9. So basically, this means that the Pashtun admixture is very old.

Humanist
07-02-2014, 08:55 PM
This is certainly interesting, but I'm not really quite sure if this maps unto actual northern European admixture. When you tried this on the HGDP Pashtuns, you got 66% Lithuanian admixture for them.

I think there is the potential of over analyzing a particular question. One variety of analysis will tell us one thing, and another will tell us a different story. When I look at it, I look to see if there is a correlation between the populations with the possible "North European" admixture, and populations lacking said admixture according to the particular run in question (a Dodecad run). I think we can all agree that this appears to be more than coincidental. That said, this does not definitively mean that it is (relatively) recent admixture, but I think that is the most likely explanation, given the totality of the evidence.


North_European
5 Lebanese
3 Bedouin
3 Syrians
2 Saudis
1 Jordanians
1 Yemenese
1 Palestinian
1 Druze

0 Yemen_Jews
0 Samaritan_All
0 Ethiopians
0 Egyptians
0 Somali_D
0 Mozabite
0 Iraq_Jews
0 Iranian_Jews
0 Assyrian_D

everest59
07-02-2014, 08:56 PM
Bedouins are probably purer Basal Eurasian than Samaritians are if we discount the effects of recent SSA, which also factors in when programs are used. So no surprise that test failed. What was the Z for first test?

Well, Alder is a different program. I see a bunch of z scores, which I don't think is comparable with Admixtools. Anywhere from 1.5 to 2.5

Shaikorth
07-02-2014, 09:01 PM
Well, Alder is a different program. I see a bunch of z scores, which I don't think is comparable with Admixtools. Anywhere from 1.5 to 2.5

An event with Z score of > 3 is supposed to be "significant LD evidence of admixture" in ALDER according to the Lazaridis paper supplements.

everest59
07-02-2014, 09:06 PM
An event with Z score of > 3 is supposed to be "significant LD evidence of admixture" in ALDER according to the Lazaridis paper supplements.

Was that for 2-ref test? For 1-ref test, I see a bunch of z-scores for various decay curves.
As for 2-ref test, there was a z-score, and it was basically Zero. Basically "curve is not significant".

everest59
07-02-2014, 09:12 PM
Was that for 2-ref test? For 1-ref test, I see a bunch of z-scores for various decay curves.
As for 2-ref test, there was a z-score, and it was basically Zero. Basically "curve is not significant".

Okay, I see the difference. With Yoruba, I notice Z-score in the teens for Beduoins.

Shaikorth
07-02-2014, 09:13 PM
Was that for 2-ref test? For 1-ref test, I see a bunch of z-scores for various decay curves.
As for 2-ref test, there was a z-score, and it was basically Zero. Basically "curve is not significant".

1-reference, it's on p. 121-122.

everest59
07-02-2014, 09:16 PM
1-reference, it's on p. 121-122.

Well, in that case Bedouin; Lithuanians is not very significant (<3 Z-score), whereas Bedouin; Yoruba is very significant (>10).

Shaikorth
07-02-2014, 09:18 PM
Well, in that case Bedouin; Lithuanians is not very significant (<3 Z-score), whereas Bedouin; Yoruba is very significant (>10).

That figures. You could try with some North Caucasians or Iranians.

everest59
07-02-2014, 09:23 PM
1-reference, it's on p. 121-122.

Good idea, and it actually worked with Chechens. I tried Sardinian before I tried Chechens. Sardinian;Bedouin had even less Z-score than Lithuanians;Bedouin.
As far as Chechens, all Z-scores are >3. Lower Bound % is 10.1 with only 1% standard error.

everest59
07-02-2014, 09:27 PM
Another success. I was able to fit Bedouins as a mixture of Chechens and Yoruba:
est SUCCEEDS (z=8.02, p=1e-15) for Bedouin with {Chechens, Yoruba} weights

DATA: success (warning: decay rates inconsistent) 1e-15 Bedouin Chechens Yoruba 8.02 3.53 11.69 67% 18.73 +/- 2.34 0.00015693 +/- 0.00001686 11.63 +/- 3.30 0.00000499 +/- 0.00000102 23.29 +/- 1.99 0.00017582 +/- 0.00001182

DATA: test status p-value test pop ref A ref B 2-ref z-score 1-ref z-score A 1-ref z-score B max decay diff % 2-ref decay 2-ref amp_exp 1-ref decay A 1-ref amp_exp A 1-ref decay B 1-ref amp_exp B


In case, the above is hard to read. The 2-ref decay is 18.73 generations. Assuming 27 years in a generation, I ended up with 505 years.

Sein
07-02-2014, 09:30 PM
Another success. I was able to fit Bedouins as a mixture of Chechens and Yoruba:
est SUCCEEDS (z=8.02, p=1e-15) for Bedouin with {Chechens, Yoruba} weights

DATA: success (warning: decay rates inconsistent) 1e-15 Bedouin Chechens Yoruba 8.02 3.53 11.69 67% 18.73 +/- 2.34 0.00015693 +/- 0.00001686 11.63 +/- 3.30 0.00000499 +/- 0.00000102 23.29 +/- 1.99 0.00017582 +/- 0.00001182

DATA: test status p-value test pop ref A ref B 2-ref z-score 1-ref z-score A 1-ref z-score B max decay diff % 2-ref decay 2-ref amp_exp 1-ref decay A 1-ref amp_exp A 1-ref decay B 1-ref amp_exp B

Very interesting.

Humanist
07-09-2014, 07:26 PM
Although there may be other reasons for the decline, such as the dormant Dodecad project and real world commitments, I do believe that the level of activity over at Dienekes' blog is at least in some way due to a decline in news from the field of population genetics (and related areas). A graph of Dienekes' posting activity (posts/days) for the years 2004 through 2014:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/dok101009/Dienekes_Blog-1.jpg

rms2
07-09-2014, 07:48 PM
There has to be some big ancient y-dna news just around the corner, though. I feel it.

DMXX
07-09-2014, 07:53 PM
There has to be some big ancient y-dna news just around the corner, though. I feel it.

You're feeling it, I'm seeing it. :D :

Genotyping of 390,000 SNPs in more than forty 3,000-9,000 year old humans from the ancient Russian steppe (https://mcidublin.conference-services.net/reports/template/onetextabstract.xml?xsl=template/onetextabstract.xsl&conferenceID=3958&abstractID=814052)
The complete genome sequence of a 45,000-year-oldmodern human from Eurasia (https://mcidublin.conference-services.net/reports/template/onetextabstract.xml?xsl=template/onetextabstract.xsl&conferenceID=3958&abstractID=811773)

There are other great studies we're expecting, but the point remains, there definitely is a lot of good material around the corner.

The slump from 2012 onwards is clearly because of the Dodecad Project's inactivity. I wonder what was responsible for the activity surge in 2008? The numerous studies on South Siberian nomads perhaps?

Humanist
07-15-2014, 02:16 AM
I was reading through a "Dodecad" thread on another forum recently, and came across a past post of mine. Did anyone else register any "chimp (http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2012/12/globe13anc-calculator-with-chimp.html)?"

I am 0.01% "Ancestral."

:biggrin1:


My "Chimp" Badge of Honor ;)

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/chimp.jpg

geebee
07-15-2014, 02:49 AM
A regular "bloke off the old chimp".

AJL
07-15-2014, 03:12 AM
No chimp genes for me.

Erik
07-15-2014, 01:51 PM
I was reading through a "Dodecad" thread on another forum recently, and came across a past post of mine. Did anyone else register any "chimp (http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2012/12/globe13anc-calculator-with-chimp.html)?"

I am 0.01% "Ancestral."

:biggrin1:
Where can I do this GEDmatch is down?

AJL
07-15-2014, 03:01 PM
It's a bit of work but can be done yourself. You first download the statistical software R from CRAN, then download the Do-It-Yourself Dodecad package from the Dodecad site, then the Globe 13 + Ancestral files, then follow the Readme.txt.

AJL
07-15-2014, 03:02 PM
You're feeling it, I'm seeing it. :D :

Genotyping of 390,000 SNPs in more than forty 3,000-9,000 year old humans from the ancient Russian steppe (https://mcidublin.conference-services.net/reports/template/onetextabstract.xml?xsl=template/onetextabstract.xsl&conferenceID=3958&abstractID=814052)
The complete genome sequence of a 45,000-year-oldmodern human from Eurasia (https://mcidublin.conference-services.net/reports/template/onetextabstract.xml?xsl=template/onetextabstract.xsl&conferenceID=3958&abstractID=811773)

There are other great studies we're expecting, but the point remains, there definitely is a lot of good material around the corner.

The slump from 2012 onwards is clearly because of the Dodecad Project's inactivity. I wonder what was responsible for the activity surge in 2008? The numerous studies on South Siberian nomads perhaps?

I was thinking a little more about this -- it may have been in part the swelling of interest in 23andme, which was Time magazine's invention of the year in 2008.

Sein
07-17-2014, 07:25 PM
Here is an interesting post from the past:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/rolloff-analysis-of-french-as-mixture.html

"I obtain f3(French; Sardinian, Burusho) = -0.002652 (Z=-13.541) on the basis of 446,917 SNPs. This is the strongest signal of admixture in the French that involves a population that is high on the "West_Asian" component whose influence I have been investigating...The jackknife gives 239.556 +/- 50.553 generations for this admixture, which corresponds (assuming a generation length of 29 years) to 6,950 +/- 1,470 years.

Analysis of autosomal DNA from the Tyrolean Iceman and a Neolithic TRB farmer from Sweden have revealed an absence of the West Asian ancestral component and a Sardinian-like Neolithic population c. 5ka in Europe. This population may have extended to at least to the Balkans in space and down to the Iron Age in time.

In my opinion, the simplest explanation for the evidence is that the admixture picked up by rolloff took place in West Asia itself c. 7ka, and then this population begun its movement into Europe at some post-5ka time period.

Importantly, the K=12 Caucasus component appears as a mixture of the K=7 West_Asian and Southern components. The former (West_Asian) is the most important one in the Burusho, and the latter (Southern) is the most important one in Sardinians."

The "West_Asian" component in question is actually equivalent to the Baloch/Gedrosian component. This ADMIXTURE cluster is absolutely absent in ancient European farmers and ancient European hunter gatherers. Yet, it is one of the predominant components for MA1 and Afontova Gora. In relation to this, the fact that the French can be modeled as Sardinian+Burusho mixes is due to the ANE peak in northern South Asia (we are dealing with an ANE signal for the French). The Burusho might possibly be around 45% ANE admixed, and are at the very least 30% ANE admixed (but 30% is probably too low for this population).

In support of this, here is a similar analysis by Dienekes with Lezgians:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/10/rolloff-analysis-of-lezgins-as.html

The Lezgians fit very well as Burusho+Sardinian, which supports the ANE connection. It should be noted that the Lezgians have a very high Baloch/Gedrosian ratio for their region. This component (along with their substantial northern European-affiliated component) probably mediates much of their ANE ancestry in the ADMIXTURE software.

Shaikorth
07-17-2014, 08:23 PM
Here is an interesting post from the past:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/rolloff-analysis-of-french-as-mixture.html

"I obtain f3(French; Sardinian, Burusho) = -0.002652 (Z=-13.541) on the basis of 446,917 SNPs. This is the strongest signal of admixture in the French that involves a population that is high on the "West_Asian" component whose influence I have been investigating...The jackknife gives 239.556 +/- 50.553 generations for this admixture, which corresponds (assuming a generation length of 29 years) to 6,950 +/- 1,470 years.

Analysis of autosomal DNA from the Tyrolean Iceman and a Neolithic TRB farmer from Sweden have revealed an absence of the West Asian ancestral component and a Sardinian-like Neolithic population c. 5ka in Europe. This population may have extended to at least to the Balkans in space and down to the Iron Age in time.

In my opinion, the simplest explanation for the evidence is that the admixture picked up by rolloff took place in West Asia itself c. 7ka, and then this population begun its movement into Europe at some post-5ka time period.

Importantly, the K=12 Caucasus component appears as a mixture of the K=7 West_Asian and Southern components. The former (West_Asian) is the most important one in the Burusho, and the latter (Southern) is the most important one in Sardinians."

The "West_Asian" component in question is actually equivalent to the Baloch/Gedrosian component. This ADMIXTURE cluster is absolutely absent in ancient European farmers and ancient European hunter gatherers. Yet, it is one of the predominate components for MA1 and Afontova Gora. In relation to this, the fact that the French can be modeled as Sardinian+Burusho mixes is due to the ANE peak in northern South Asia (we are dealing with an ANE signal for the French). The Burusho might possibly be around 45% ANE admixed, and are at the very least 30% ANE admixed (but 30% is probably too low for this population).

In support of this, here is a similar analysis by Dienekes with Lezgians:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/10/rolloff-analysis-of-lezgins-as.html

The Lezgians fit very well as Burusho+Sardinian, which supports the ANE connection. It should be noted that the Lezgians have a very high Baloch/Gedrosian ratio for their region. This component (along with their substantial northern European-affiliated component) probably mediates much of their ANE ancestry in the ADMIXTURE software.

Burusho's exact level of ANE is pretty hard to gauge given that ANE amplifies ENA signals and vice versa. As seen below, Iceman + Chinese/Japanese produces stronger admixture signals for Tuscans and Spanish than Iceman + Northern Euro. South Han, who should be almost as pure ENA as She, even produce a stronger signal for Tuscans than Japanese who likely have some ANE. Kalash/Pashtun level of ANE for the Burushos is probably a safe bet though.
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004353.s015

Dr_McNinja
07-17-2014, 08:25 PM
Here is an interesting post from the past:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/rolloff-analysis-of-french-as-mixture.html

"I obtain f3(French; Sardinian, Burusho) = -0.002652 (Z=-13.541) on the basis of 446,917 SNPs. This is the strongest signal of admixture in the French that involves a population that is high on the "West_Asian" component whose influence I have been investigating...The jackknife gives 239.556 +/- 50.553 generations for this admixture, which corresponds (assuming a generation length of 29 years) to 6,950 +/- 1,470 years.

Analysis of autosomal DNA from the Tyrolean Iceman and a Neolithic TRB farmer from Sweden have revealed an absence of the West Asian ancestral component and a Sardinian-like Neolithic population c. 5ka in Europe. This population may have extended to at least to the Balkans in space and down to the Iron Age in time.

In my opinion, the simplest explanation for the evidence is that the admixture picked up by rolloff took place in West Asia itself c. 7ka, and then this population begun its movement into Europe at some post-5ka time period.

Importantly, the K=12 Caucasus component appears as a mixture of the K=7 West_Asian and Southern components. The former (West_Asian) is the most important one in the Burusho, and the latter (Southern) is the most important one in Sardinians."

The "West_Asian" component in question is actually equivalent to the Baloch/Gedrosian component. This ADMIXTURE cluster is absolutely absent in ancient European farmers and ancient European hunter gatherers. Yet, it is one of the predominate components for MA1 and Afontova Gora. In relation to this, the fact that the French can be modeled as Sardinian+Burusho mixes is due to the ANE peak in northern South Asia (we are dealing with an ANE signal for the French). The Burusho might possibly be around 45% ANE admixed, and are at the very least 30% ANE admixed (but 30% is probably too low for this population).

In support of this, here is a similar analysis by Dienekes with Lezgians:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/10/rolloff-analysis-of-lezgins-as.html

The Lezgians fit very well as Burusho+Sardinian, which supports the ANE connection. It should be noted that the Lezgians have a very high Baloch/Gedrosian ratio for their region. This component (along with their substantial northern European-affiliated component) probably mediates much of their ANE ancestry in the ADMIXTURE software.
That ancient Thracian genome was also high in Gedrosian, right? Do you think the Gedrosian/Baloch component was more pervasive in that area until relatively more recently, when for whatever reason the other twin Caucasus component took over?

Sein
07-17-2014, 08:45 PM
That ancient Thracian genome was also high in Gedrosian, right? Do you think the Gedrosian/Baloch component was more pervasive in that area until relatively more recently, when for whatever reason the other twin Caucasus component took over?

True, they had a much higher score than even the Baloch/Brahui.

I think that's quite reasonable. Then again, perhaps the Caucasus component represents an older substratum? In a lot of ways, the Caucasus component is a much less ANE-shifted version of the South Central Asian component (whichever component happens to be modal in South Central Asians, like in the Baloch with HarappaWorld+Dodecad, or in Pashtuns with myORIGINS, or in the Kalash with Lazaridis et al.), or the South Central Asian component is a much more ANE-shifted version of the Caucasus component. I guess aDNA will establish the temporal priority.

Right now though, it seems the component modal in the Caucasus is a mix of South Central Asian (Baloch/Gedrosia, Eurasian Heartland, etc)+Southwest Asian.

Dr_McNinja
07-18-2014, 12:15 AM
True, they had a much higher score than even the Baloch/Brahui.

I think that's quite reasonable. Then again, perhaps the Caucasus component represents an older substratum? In a lot of ways, the Caucasus component is a much less ANE-shifted version of the South Central Asian component (whichever component happens to be modal in South Central Asians, like in the Baloch with HarappaWorld+Dodecad, or in Pashtuns with myORIGINS, or in the Kalash with Lazaridis et al.), or the South Central Asian component is a much more ANE-shifted version of the Caucasus component. I guess aDNA will establish the temporal priority.

Right now though, it seems the component modal in the Caucasus is a mix of South Central Asian (Baloch/Gedrosia, Eurasian Heartland, etc)+Southwest Asian.Yeah that's a big question right now, did Gedrosian come first or did Caucasus come first.

That makes a lot of sense. That also fits with what I've been finding. The ANE is consistent across most Punjabi/Haryana Jatts, but as NE-Euro goes up in Haryanvi Jatts, the Gedrosian goes down.

In my family's case, it's interesting, we have some West Caucasus/Southern/Southwest Asian-type admixture and low Gedrosian, like we're lacking in some ANE or more likely the ANE is registering as ENA or ASI which results in low Gedrosian and excess Caucasian. This literally happened to my father's data in Eurogenes K36, his Gedrosian dropped significantly (being totally out of line with South Asians anywhere near North India or Pakistan) and his Caucasian jumped above mine and my mother's scores by several points, clearly one went into the other. Meanwhile ASI goes up...

I wonder if that Caucasian signal explains the phenotype of my family, there are quite a few typically Pakistani-looking ones among them who resemble Pakistani Pathans/Pashtun, not what you'd expect for people being pegged as North Indian. The NE-Euro doesn't seem to correlate to phenotype too much (aside from perhaps general physical size? people are generally taller/bigger in the Northwest subcontinent) but Caucasian and perhaps Gedrosian does.

Humanist
12-25-2015, 10:58 PM
Although there may be other reasons for the decline, such as the dormant Dodecad project and real world commitments, I do believe that the level of activity over at Dienekes' blog is at least in some way due to a decline in news from the field of population genetics (and related areas). A graph of Dienekes' posting activity (posts/days) for the years 2004 through 2014:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/dok101009/Dienekes_Blog-1.jpg

It appears that 2015 will set a new record for fewest postings by Dienekes to his blog (101 as of 12/25/2015, or ~.28 posts per day).

J Man
12-26-2015, 03:58 AM
It appears that 2015 will set a new record for fewest postings by Dienekes to his blog (101 as of 12/25/2015, or ~.28 posts per day).

Yeah he has really taken a big step back it seems.

Awale
01-05-2016, 01:00 PM
It appears that 2015 will set a new record for fewest postings by Dienekes to his blog (101 as of 12/25/2015, or ~.28 posts per day).

One should keep in mind that practically 99.99% of his posts nowadays are just "shares" where he shares new studies that have come out (a link and an abstract etc.) and perhaps sometimes bothers to add some comments. But what seriously happened? Why'd he discontinue the Dodecad project? Population Genetics has gotten more interesting than ever with ancient DNA and the sampling of more and more populations. I really don't understand why he's withdrawn so much.

Apex n Harmony
08-16-2017, 03:02 PM
One should keep in mind that practically 99.99% of his posts nowadays are just "shares" where he shares new studies that have come out (a link and an abstract etc.) and perhaps sometimes bothers to add some comments. But what seriously happened? Why'd he discontinue the Dodecad project? Population Genetics has gotten more interesting than ever with ancient DNA and the sampling of more and more populations. I really don't understand why he's withdrawn so much.

Are the Dodecad calculators on GEDmatch outdated? I get my closest population matches using them, but I've wondered whether they're considered "less accurate" than other GEDmatch calculators in any way given that (I think?) they haven't been updated or replaced in quite some time.

Nino90
09-12-2018, 03:06 PM
Are the Dodecad calculators on GEDmatch outdated? I get my closest population matches using them, but I've wondered whether they're considered "less accurate" than other GEDmatch calculators in any way given that (I think?) they haven't been updated or replaced in quite some time.

I think they need an update.