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ancestryfan1994
09-18-2016, 04:32 PM
The study of European ancestry in Iran is one thats heavily understudied and practically non existent in documentation. I'm fairly confident that there must be some degree of european ancestry in Iran. However, confirming this to be the case, while also finding the most common sources for where any european ancestry in Iran comes from, is quite difficult. What are your thoughts? does anybody have some information to add (historical/genetic) that could help shed some light on the most likely sources? I will chime in with a few of my own, starting with some very helpful iranica articles on where I think the most likely sources of european ancestry would come from based on historical links.

Iran's British connection
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/great-britain

Iran's French connection
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/france-index

Iran's Dutch connection

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/dutch-persian-relations

Iran's Russian connection
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/russia-i-relations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Iran




There are of course, many other gateways to other parts of Europe, but these are the most highly documented ones.

Heteorchromia
09-23-2016, 01:21 AM
If Iranians had any significant European ancestry, we would know by know. However, they obviously share a massive amount of their ancestry with Europeans, since both Iranians and Europeans are West Eurasians genetically.

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 01:37 AM
If Iranians had any significant European ancestry, we would know by know. However, they obviously share a massive amount of their ancestry with Europeans, since both Iranians and Europeans are West Eurasians genetically.

There definitely isn't a "significant" amount of recent european ancestry found in Iran, but i have a feeling that if the case was looked into using genetics, There may be some found here and there. Either that, or my family might just be an outlier, we've been trying to look into this case recently with our own families genetic history.

European ancestry in Iran definitely isn't significant, but it probably does exist to some fair degree. Those links above certainly give credibility to connections to Europe.

Heteorchromia
09-23-2016, 02:03 PM
There definitely isn't a "significant" amount of recent european ancestry found in Iran, but i have a feeling that if the case was looked into using genetics, There may be some found here and there. Either that, or my family might just be an outlier, we've been trying to look into this case recently with our own families genetic history.

European ancestry in Iran definitely isn't significant, but it probably does exist to some fair degree. Those links above certainly give credibility to connections to Europe.

Why is your family an outlier?

Volat
09-23-2016, 02:48 PM
Russian Molokans were expelled from Russia settling in Armenia and Iran. But they were a minority who wouldn't mix with any ethnicity even the rest of Russians despite being a Russian subgroup.

I'd say Iran has more Turkic (Turkmen and Azerbaijani) ancestries than European.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-23-2016, 03:33 PM
The European mix is probably ancient like South asians and South central asians have.

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 03:45 PM
Why is your family an outlier?

Theres a good chance we have some european input from a few places based on our relatives detected, and some admixture results. But I'm not going to say its definitive until me and my brother can get some more hard evidence to support it.

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 03:48 PM
Russian Molokans were expelled from Russia settling in Armenia and Iran. But they were a minority who wouldn't mix with any ethnicity even the rest of Russians despite being a Russian subgroup.

I'd say Iran has more Turkic (Turkmen and Azerbaijani) ancestries than European.

Your right, however i think we're missing the point of this thread, I'm well aware of Iran's obvious turkic admixture. What i think people often tend to overlook is the slight possibility for links outside of the region. For example, you mention the Russians, I know and have heard of some Iranians (and even a close kurdish friend of mine) who have some Russian ancestry, so there was indeed some mixing that happened.

If there is any european admixture from Europe, its most likely found in people like my own family, who have lived on the coastal areas of Iran and were merchants involved in trade, this would have given them the opportunity to make contact with the outside world, something the other more central parts maybe never did.

Volat
09-23-2016, 03:51 PM
Your right, however i think we're missing the point of this thread, I'm well aware of irons obvious turkic admixture. What i think people often tend to overlook is the slight possibility for links outside of the region. For example, you mention the Russians, I know and have heard of some Iranians who have distant Russian ancestry, so there was indeed some mixing that happened.

Maybe! Russians had a minor if any impact on Iranian genetic pool. On the other hand, there are aroudn 15-20mln Turkic speakers living in northern Iran. Some of them could be linguistic shifters.

If you can find a single genetic profile of an Iranian that looks as European....

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 03:58 PM
Maybe! Russians had a minor if any impact on Iranian genetic pool. On the other hand, there are aroudn 15-20mln Turkic speakers living in northern Iran. Some of them could be linguistic shifters.

If you can find a single genetic profile of an Iranian that looks as European....

Again, the point of this thread isn't to prove that Iran has had a major recent genetic impact by europeans, which has shaped or altered our genomic profile, because it never happened. The point of this thread is to simply shed light and discuss how and where some of the possible distant european connections came to be for some Iranians. Not every Iranian will have european admixture, but your probably going to come across an amount that do.

Also, Im fairly certain that unless an Iranian has significantly high recent european ancestry (in the high double digit percentages, at parent/grandparent level), you will never find "a single genetic profile of an Iranian that looks as european", but that doesn't mean there is no european admixture, because any european admixture Iranians have wouldn't be significant enough to shift their profiles to look european. As a fine example, I plot as a normal Iranian and cluster where I should, despite having a grandparent of part east asian ancestry. The admixture wasn't significant enough to shift us elsewhere.

A Norfolk L-M20
09-23-2016, 04:21 PM
I have the opposite, although it could be used to support contact and exchange between NW Europe and Western Asia during the past. I'm NW European but my Y (L-M20) originates in Western Asia, between Anatolia and Central Asia. The sub clades of L1b (if not L1 itself) appear most varied south of the Caucasus, between Anatolia and Pakistan. They date back towards the end of the last Ice Age, where they most likely provenance to a zone near to the Black Sea and Caspian Sea. Some Y haplogroup L lines have likely been around Europe for a very long time - it looks multiple entry into Europe (L2 and L-M349). However mine does not appear to have been here so long. I'd best guessitmate that my Y moved from the Iran/Pakistan Zone, to here in Southern England sometime between the Later (Western) Roman and Early Post Medieval. For a while I suspected a C15/C16 Portuguese link to Asia. However, I realise that I must be more open minded to the possibilities.

I have found five Y cousins with low STR marker results, that all originate from Southern England - but all with the same surname (not mine), all appear to have descended from one paternal grandfather that lived at Basingstoke during the 1740s. My paternal grandfather at that time, lived only 31 miles away in the Thames Valley, Berkshire. From that, I might assume from the matched STR evidence, and geographical location, that the Y MRCA in both of our surname lines, arrived in England most likely not more recent than 500 years ago. I have Big Y tested, and my last terminal SNP was shared with only one other tester so far - and he was a Balochi speaker in Makran, SW Pakistan. My understanding is that the Balochi migrated over a long period from an area south of the Caspian. My nearest Y111 match is a guy who's paternal line came from Birjand, East Khorasan, Iran. Dating of a MRCA is difficult with so few matches, but it looks likely to be less than 2,000 years ago. My Y journey is L M20+M22+M317+SK1412+SK1414. I have a further 117 novel SNPs awaiting matches. Another STR tester has been clustered with us, from Saudi Arabia. Meanwhile, another STR tester, of Azores paternal ancestry, that matches fairly well, has a marker (10 at DYS393) that a previous study associated with Parsi*. That's pretty much it with recorded matches within the past several thousand years.

I'm probably stretching it to propose "Iran" as the home of our MRCA, but certainly, that region has been home at times to some of my Y ancestors, while more specifically, Eastern Iran / SW Pakistan, and the surrounding zones, look most likely to be the last Asian home of my Y line until 2,000 years ago, probably later. The line then pops up next in Southern England, by 500 years ago at the very latest. That no other L-SK1414 have yet been traced to Europe, or anywhere in Europe between Southern England, and Iran / Pakistan, might under the present very limited evidence, suggest that I had a Y ancestor, that at some point during the Medieval (or say, between 1,800 and 500 years ago) moved in one generation across Europe.

Therefore, an example of admixture moving in the opposite direction.

By the way, autosomal DNA testing for ancestry (23andMe AC, FTDNA FF, WEGENE analysis, DNA.land analysis, and a variety of GEDMATCH calculators do not suggest that I have any residual Asian ancestry, nor matches, above that to be expected for a NW European, so I'd suggest that my Y arrived in Southern England long enough for any autosomal evidence to be washed out by recombination.

Reference *. Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in Pakistan. Raheel Qamar etal. 2002.

Volat
09-23-2016, 04:42 PM
Again, the point of this thread isn't to prove that Iran has had a major recent genetic impact by europeans, which has shaped or altered our genomic profile, because it never happened. The point of this thread is to simply shed light and discuss how and where some of the possible distant european connections came to be for some Iranians. Not every Iranian will have european admixture, but your probably going to come across an amount that do.

Also, Im fairly certain that unless an Iranian has significantly high recent european ancestry (in the high double digit percentages, at parent/grandparent level), you will never find "a single genetic profile of an Iranian that looks as european", but that doesn't mean there is no european admixture, because any european admixture Iranians have wouldn't be significant enough to shift their profiles to look european. As a fine example, I plot as a normal Iranian and cluster where I should, despite having a grandparent of part east asian ancestry. The admixture wasn't significant enough to shift us elsewhere.

There's so much written with little evidence provide. Just post genetic profile of an Iranian (there 80 millions living in Iran) showing you have genetic similarities with Europeans. I am certain people of northern Caucasus such as Adyghe are more genetically European than the rest of people from the region. They don't talk about the 'Europeaness'.

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 04:52 PM
There's so much written with little evidence provide. Just post genetic profile of an Iranian (there 80 millions living in Iran) showing you have genetic similarities with Europeans. I am certain people of northern Caucasus such as Adyghe are more genetically European than the rest of people from the region. They don't talk about the 'Europeaness'.

I provided links in my first post which give a fair amount of credibility as to how the contact could be made (mostly via trade in the 1500's-1800's), the rest is up in smoke in terms of providing you with genetic evidence. What sort of genetic profile do you want to see, do you want PCA plots? 23andme results? because like i said, not every Iranian will have european admixture, this isn't something where choosing by random can wield a conclusion, there's either something there or there isn't.

Once again, the aim of this thread isn't "genetic similarities" between Iranians and europeans......

Heteorchromia
09-23-2016, 05:01 PM
Theres a good chance we have some european input from a few places based on our relatives detected, and some admixture results. But I'm not going to say its definitive until me and my brother can get some more hard evidence to support it.

Interesting.

Volat
09-23-2016, 05:09 PM
I provided links in my first post which give a fair amount of credibility as to how the contact could be made (mostly via trade in the 1500's-1800's), the rest is up in smoke in terms of providing you with genetic evidence. What sort of genetic profile do you want to see, do you want PCA plots? 23andme results? because like i said, not every Iranian will have european admixture, this isn't something where choosing by random can wield a conclusion, there's either something there or there isn't.

Once again, the aim of this thread isn't "genetic similarities" between Iranians and europeans......
Anything. 23andme admxitures, PCA will do.

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 05:20 PM
Anything. 23andme admxitures, PCA will do.

Ok, well in this case, Ill use my own family as an example in a quick rundown.

Since we started testing our genomes to learn about our family history, there was a persistent signal that there could be some sort of Iberian like connection in the family. This has been evident from the abnormal amount of relatives we seem to have from places like Mexico and Cuba, across all of the genetic companies, it wasn't just 23andme that would assign people from these places in our relatives list. A lot of them have their family trees up/admixture results with no middle eastern like ancestry, just pure Latin names.

Once our fathers genome was phased, our admixture results updated to reflect a more accurate picture, and alongside this, an Iberian segment was assigned. Not to mention, certain admixture calculators in GEDmatch have Iberian populations show up in the oracles, normally I'd pass off some of the oracles, but in this case it does seem to correlate with the other genetic evidence. There's still some further digging to do in order to fully be comfortable with it, but all in all it looks highly likely that there is Iberian in the family.

Volat
09-23-2016, 05:26 PM
Ok, well in this case, Ill use my own family as an example in a quick rundown.

Since we started testing our genomes to learn about our family history, there was a persistent signal that there could be some sort of Iberian like connection in the family. This has been evident from the abnormal amount of relatives we seem to have from places like Mexico and Cuba, across all of the genetic companies, it wasn't just 23andme that would assign people from these places in our relatives list. A lot of them have their family trees up/admixture results with no middle eastern like ancestry, just pure latin names. Once our fathers genome was phased, our admixture results updated to reflect a more accurate picture, and alongside this, an Iberian segment was assigned. Not to mention, certain admixture calculators in GEDmatch have Iberian populations show up in the oracles, normally I'd pass off some of the oracles, but in this case it does seem to correlate with the other genetic evidence.

Mate! Just post the results on Iranic genetics. :)

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 05:42 PM
Mate! Just post the results on Iranic genetics. :)

Isn't that a good enough example seeing as that's what this threads about?

I really think your having difficulties understanding what the intentions of this thread is.

Volat
09-23-2016, 05:46 PM
Isn't that a good enough example seeing as that's what this threads about?

I really think your having difficulties understanding what the intentions of this thread is.

I really have a difficulty understanding your blabbering. Post DNA profile of a regular Iranian. I am asking this for the 3rd time.

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 05:49 PM
I have a difficulty understanding you. Post the DNA result of a regular Iranian. For God's sake man.

Yes, you clearly do misunderstand the whole point of this thread. I advise you to go over the original post I made a few times before we continue.

Megalophias
09-23-2016, 05:50 PM
I really have a difficulty understanding your blabbering. Post DNA profile of a regular Iranian. For God's sake man.

WTF Volat? Did you read anything he posted? He isn't talking about regular Iranians and their ancient relatedness to Europeans, he is interested in Iranians who happen to have some European ancestry.

Volat
09-23-2016, 05:54 PM
Yes, you clearly do misunderstand the whole point of this thread. I advise you to go over the original post I made a few times before we continue.

Clearly, the topic of yours is ridiculous. I asked you for the facts showing any evidence about European ancestry among Iranians. You are making a fool of yourself writing about anything other presenting facts and arguments.

Volat
09-23-2016, 05:56 PM
WTF Volat? Did you read anything he posted? He isn't talking about regular Iranians and their ancient relatedness to Europeans, he is interested in Iranians who happen to have some European ancestry.

I've read everything he posted. I asked him to show any evidence about any Iranian having European ancestry be it recent or ancient.

Megalophias
09-23-2016, 06:00 PM
I've read everything he posted. I asked him to show any evidence about any Iranian having European ancestry be it recent or ancient.
How could it possibly happen that no Iranians whatsoever had any European ancestry?

If you think for some reason that the OP is delusional about having some European ancestry in his family, then tell us why, otherwise it just looks like you are dumping on his thread for no reason.

Volat
09-23-2016, 06:03 PM
How could it possibly happen that no Iranians whatsoever had any European ancestry?

Modern day Aboriginals of Australia have more European ancestry than Iranians , in my opinion. If it's possible for Iranians to have European ancestry, then I'd like to see some evidence. In any form.

Megalophias
09-23-2016, 06:06 PM
Modern day Aboriginals of Australia have more European ancestry than Iranians , in my opinion. If it's possible for Iranians to have European ancestry, then I'd like to see some evidence. In any form.

Iranians have I1-M253 and R1a-Z280.

And of course Aboriginal Australians have loads of European ancestry, they are a socioeconomically depressed minority in a sea of British. It would be bizarre if they didn't have way more European ancestry than Iranians. Gilak and Mazandaran were part of the Russian Empire for about 10 years, and the British, Dutch, and Portuguese were mucking around mainly on the Gulf coast in the colonial period, but you wouldn't expect any significant impact there. Of course there can also be expatriate returning with their families from mixed marriages.

Volat
09-23-2016, 07:05 PM
Iranians have I1-M253 and R1a-Z280.

And of course Aboriginal Australians have loads of European ancestry, they are a socioeconomically depressed minority in a sea of British. It would be bizarre if they didn't have way more European ancestry than Iranians. Gilak and Mazandaran were part of the Russian Empire for about 10 years, and the British, Dutch, and Portuguese were mucking around mainly on the Gulf coast in the colonial period, but you wouldn't expect any significant impact there. Of course there can also be expatriate returning with their families from mixed marriages.

Anglo-Saxon criminals were deported to Australia. Most of them were males. Naturally, they were looking for females. My Austrlian mate has a full-blooded Aboriginal grandfather. Dutch grandmother. Irish grandmother and Scottish grandfather. He identifies himself as an Australian.

If OP cannot provide genetic evidence about European ancestry among Iranians, then I'd like to read a story about Iranians mixing with Europeans. Such a mix was not possible due different religions. Christians and Muslims did not mix. Exception were upper class and royalties.

vettor
09-23-2016, 07:31 PM
Anglo-Saxon criminals were deported to Australia. Most of them were males. Naturally, they were looking for females. My Austrlian mate has a full-blooded Aboriginal grandfather. Dutch grandmother. Irish grandmother and Scottish grandfather. He identifies himself as an Australian.

If OP cannot provide genetic evidence about European ancestry among Iranians, then I'd like to read a story about Iranians mixing with Europeans. Such a mix was not possible due different religions. Christians and Muslims did not mix. Exception were upper class and royalties.

http://www.portphillippioneersgroup.org.au/pppg5bq.htm

http://www.writingfamilyhistory.com.au/Emigrationpdf.pdf

http://www.migrationheritage.nsw.gov.au/exhibition/objectsthroughtime-history/1830-1840s/index.html

the biggest % of women arriving in Australia was between 1830-1840 ...............IIRC, they where nicknamed the butterfly ships

THe mix with aborigines must have come after this period, because of the estimated 3 million aborigines at the time of the first white man, 2 thirds died of white mans diseases

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 08:48 PM
Anglo-Saxon criminals were deported to Australia. Most of them were males. Naturally, they were looking for females. My Austrlian mate has a full-blooded Aboriginal grandfather. Dutch grandmother. Irish grandmother and Scottish grandfather. He identifies himself as an Australian.

If OP cannot provide genetic evidence about European ancestry among Iranians, then I'd like to read a story about Iranians mixing with Europeans. Such a mix was not possible due different religions. Christians and Muslims did not mix. Exception were upper class and royalties.

Did you even read my own personal example I gave about my own family and our possible Iberian ancestry? Not to mention the various links I posted that give historical credibility to contact between Europeans and Iranians?

I agree with megolophias, if you don't have any reasonable arguments to defend yourself, I would rather avoid rolling in dirt with you, you seem to ignore the best possible evidence put forward for genetic proof of European ancestry which I told you already by giving my families example.

If you want to read about European mixes in Iran, read that wiki page on Russians in Iran and you'll find a few examples.

Volat
09-23-2016, 08:56 PM
Did you even read my own personal example I gave about my own family and our possible Iberian ancestry? Not to mention the various links I posted that give historical credibility to contact between Europeans and Iranians?

I agree with megolophias, if you don't have any reasonable arguments to defend yourself, I would rather avoid rolling in dirt with you, you seem to ignore the best possible evidence put forward for genetic proof of European ancestry which I told you already by giving my families example.

If you want to read about European mixes in Iran, read that wiki page on Russians in Iran and you'll find a few examples.

Do you understand basic English? Post any evidence in any form showing Iranians or a single Iranian having European ancestry. Your topic is about Iranians having European ancestry. Post the story of your family describing how much you are European.

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 09:07 PM
Do you understand basic English? Post any evidence in any form showing Iranians or a single Iranian having European ancestry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nader_Jahanbani

Heres one example of an Iranian with Russian ancestry


Jahanbani was born into a family with a long military history. His father, Amanullah Jahanbani, was a lieutenant general, who served in the Persian Cossack Brigade with Reza Shah Pahlavi. He was a Qajar prince, great grandson of Fath Ali Shah.[1][2] Nader's mother, Helen Kasminsky, was from the Russian aristocracy in Petrograd. He had two brothers, Parviz, who was an officer in the Imperial Iranian Marines, and Khosrow, who married Shahnaz Pahlavi.[1]

Heres another
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darius_Khondji

He was born in Tehran, Iran, to an Iranian father and a French mother.

And another one....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soraya_Esfandiary-Bakhtiari


Soraya was the eldest child and only daughter of Khalil Esfandiary-Bakhtiary,[1] a Bakhtiary nobleman and Iranian ambassador to West Germany in the 1950s, and his German wife Eva Karl.

and another one.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ekhart

Ekhart born in Tabriz to a German father and Armenian mother. His father was a factory owner in Tabriz and was first disappeared and then killed by the Allied troops occupying Iran in September 1940.

Oh...another one!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudabeh_Mohafez

Sudabeh Mohafez was born in 1963 in Tehran to a German mother and an Iranian father, and grew up there.[1] In her family they spoke German, Persian and French.

Oh sorry, we have a few more!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladmir_Faltsman

Vladimir Faltsman was born on the 29th of December, 1932 in Tabriz, Iran. He attended school in Moscow, and in 1956 graduated from the Moscow State University of Management.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marina_Nemat

Nemat's grandmothers were both Russian, and she was brought up in an Russian Orthodox Christian family in Tehran. Both her grandmothers had, with their Iranian husbands whom they had married before the Russian Revolution of 1917, fled from Russia to Iran as part of the massive wave of migration that had started.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoya_Pirzad

Zoya Pirzad (Persian: زویا پیرزاد‎‎; Armenian: Զոյա Փիրզադ; born 1952 in Abadan) is an Iranian-Armenian writer and novelist. Her mother is Iranian Armenians and her father is of Russian background.[1]

I really hope you get the picture? and this is just the tip of the iceberg...

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 09:10 PM
Iranians have I1-M253 and R1a-Z280.

And of course Aboriginal Australians have loads of European ancestry, they are a socioeconomically depressed minority in a sea of British. It would be bizarre if they didn't have way more European ancestry than Iranians. Gilak and Mazandaran were part of the Russian Empire for about 10 years, and the British, Dutch, and Portuguese were mucking around mainly on the Gulf coast in the colonial period, but you wouldn't expect any significant impact there. Of course there can also be expatriate returning with their families from mixed marriages.

This is pretty much spot on, the British, Dutch and Portuguese had a presence on the Iranian coasts, but not enough to leave a major genetic impact on the population as a whole. With that said, some Iranians will have some imprint from these peoples left in their family, for example, Dutch people make up the next best consistent pattern of cousins we have on 23andme after the regular Iranians and their diaspora. Im pretty sure this Dutch connection is linked to those times of the 1600-1700's.

Volat
09-23-2016, 09:11 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nader_Jahanbani

Heres one example of an Iranian with Russian ancestry
Now, you are talking on the subject. That's a progress. But how many of these Europeans are part of 80 millions of modern day Iranians? I am willing to guess they are 0.000001% of the Iranian population.

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 09:19 PM
Now, you are talking on the subject. That's a progress. But how many of these Europeans are part of 80 millions of modern day Iranians? I am willing to guess they are 0.000001% of the Iranian population.

You should try and drop the negative attitude here, seriously.

Once again, nobody here, certainly not myself, have claimed that european ancestry is a common thing in Iran, because it isn't. But with that being said, and i have provided both examples in the form of my own family and other Iranians, it does occur here and there. Do you get the picture now? Do you understand where I'm going with this?

Volat
09-23-2016, 09:30 PM
You should try and drop the negative attitude here, seriously.

Once again, nobody here, certainly not myself, have claimed that european ancestry is a common thing in Iran, because it isn't. But with that being said, and i have provided both examples in the form of my own family and other Iranians, it does occur here and there. Do you get the picture now? Do you understand where I'm going with this?

I 've been around for a while on this forum. I don't have negative attitudes towards forum members. You are probably the first forum member towards whose comments I've had negative comments. It took me about 6-7 basic posts to get any evidence about Iranians or an Iranian having European ancestry from you. What kind of picture I may get reading you?

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 09:35 PM
I 've been around for a while on this forum. I don't have negative attitudes towards forum members. You are probably the first forum member towards whose comments I've had negative comments. It took me about 6-7 basic posts to get any evidence about Iranians or an Iranian having European ancestry from you. What kind of picture I may get reading you?

But it seems i finally proved you wrong right?

The opening post to this thread laid out my intentions clearly, and also provided very good historical links that could explain how Iranians came in contact with people from Europe. What part of that is so hard for you to grasp? even other forum members have voiced this.


Take the conspiracy theories elsewhere please, I have no intentions to have this thread closed because of you.

Volat
09-23-2016, 09:39 PM
Take the conspiracy theories elsewhere please, I have no intentions to have this thread closed because of you.
Conspiracies? Are you sane? I don't want your thread to be closed.

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 09:43 PM
Conspiracies? Are you sane? I don't want your thread to be closed.

Then either get back on topic and post some informative stuff, or off you go.

DMXX
09-23-2016, 09:58 PM
Let's please stick to the discussion at hand, gents.

The main difficulty in establishing recent European ancestry in Iranians from genetic data, in the absence of genealogical data, is interference through the prehistoric connections between both regions. From experience through 23andMe, it is very much the West Eurasian norm for Europeans, West Asians, North Africans and South-Central Asians to share numerous small-sized segments with another.

On the whole, Iranians appear to broadly consist of a two-way mixture between indigenous Iranian farmers (Iran_ChL, 70-85%) and late neolithic bronze age pastoralists (15-25%) based on Davidski and Kurd's formal stats. Although the predominant indigenous component doesn't appear to have contributed to the modern European genepool (per Lazaridis et al. 2016), the second component will clearly complicate things.

Volat is also certainly correct that the average non-Turkic speaking Iranian is certainly more likely to have Turkish-speaking ancestry (usually from an Iranian ethnic group that is largely native to the plateau, such as Azeris from Iran) than European.

[Edit]: Forgot to mention that I have several fairly large segments (at least 8cM) that are shared with non-Jewish East European Slavs on 23andMe. Davidski kindly took a look at those several years ago for me and confirmed they're likely real.

Volat
09-23-2016, 10:00 PM
Then either get back on topic and post some informative stuff, or off you go.
I 've on topic ever since I visited this topic.

Volat
09-23-2016, 10:06 PM
The main difficulty in establishing recent European ancestry in Iranians from genetic data, in the absence of genealogical data, is interference through the prehistoric connections between both regions. From experience through 23andMe, it is very much the West Eurasian norm for Europeans, West Asians, North Africans and South-Central Asians to share numerous small-sized segments with another.

There is little evidence about Iranians having European ancestry. I am not trying to be a snob. Australian Aboriginals, American Indians, Siberians, Africans of USA have European ancestry. Iranians don't have it.



Volat is also certainly correct that the average non-Turkic speaking Iranian is certainly more likely to have Turkish-speaking ancestry (usually from an Iranian ethnic group that is largely native to the plateau, such as Azeris from Iran) than European.

Northern Iran has around 15-20 mln of Turkic speaking population. That's a quater of Iranian population.

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 10:06 PM
Let's please stick to the discussion at hand, gents.

The main difficulty in establishing recent European ancestry in Iranians from genetic data, in the absence of genealogical data, is interference through the prehistoric connections between both regions. From experience through 23andMe, it is very much the West Eurasian norm for Europeans, West Asians, North Africans and South-Central Asians to share numerous small-sized segments with another.

On the whole, Iranians appear to broadly consist of a two-way mixture between indigenous Iranian farmers (Iran_ChL, 70-85%) and late neolithic bronze age pastoralists (15-25%) based on Davidski and Kurd's formal stats. Although the predominant indigenous component doesn't appear to have contributed to the modern European genepool (per Lazaridis et al. 2016), the second component will clearly complicate things.

Volat is also certainly correct that the average non-Turkic speaking Iranian is certainly more likely to have Turkish-speaking ancestry (usually from an Iranian ethnic group that is largely native to the plateau, such as Azeris from Iran) than European.

Agreed, there hasn't been a moment in this thread where anything other than the notion that Turkic/Caucasus ancestry is more prevalent in Iran wasn't the case. Like I said, European ancestry, while extremely uncommon compared to Turkic and Caucasus like ancestry in Iran, probably does exist to some degree in some Iranians. If I was making a guess, I'd say Iranians involved in merchant backgrounds probably have more of these connections. The links provided in the original topic, plus examples I laid out for Volat I would say are fairly good reference points. I recall when my brother worked with Davidski, that he found Italian ancestry in our family, and after phasing in 23andme, there is some Italian admixture. But again, that's something I would like to have looked at again to verify fully. European ancestry in Iran is a difficult question to nail without getting up close into an Iranians genome and exploring this.

DMXX
09-23-2016, 10:18 PM
I've had a good read through this thread in the interim, allowing me to understand the context of this disagreement. Looks like there's a contrast in perspective.


There is little evidence about Iranians having European ancestry.


With the exception of prehistoric ancestry through the Eurasian steppes from prehistoric Europeans, that is certainly correct. There is no evidence whatsoever of significant large scale admixture between historical Europeans and historical Iranians that can be represented in their modern descendants.

ancestryfan's thread appears oriented around individual genealogies. Though, I understand why the opening thread and sentences has given you a rather different impression!



Australian Aboriginals, American Indians, Siberians, Africans of USA have European ancestry. Iranians don't have it.


Certainly so, yes.



Northern Iran has around 15-20 mln of Turkic speaking population. That's a quater of Iranian population.

Likely less than that these days due to increased urbanisation of Iran's population, leading to melting pot scenarios in the cities (which are, bar Tabriz, all reliant on Persian as the lingua franca).

For reference, in case this develops into a separate discussion, please note that the genetic difference between Turkic and non-Turkic speaking Iranian populations is less than that between their paired counterparts in Eastern Europe. Azeri Iranians and Turkmen don't have the same degree of East Eurasian admixture as, say, the Noghai, Chuvash or Tatar.

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 10:37 PM
I've had a good read through this thread in the interim, allowing me to understand the context of this disagreement. Looks like there's a contrast in perspective.



With the exception of prehistoric ancestry through the Eurasian steppes from prehistoric Europeans, that is certainly correct. There is no evidence whatsoever of significant large scale admixture between historical Europeans and historical Iranians that can be represented in their modern descendants.

ancestryfan's thread appears oriented around individual genealogies. Though, I understand why the opening thread and sentences has given you a rather different impression!



Certainly so, yes.



Likely less than that these days due to increased urbanisation of Iran's population, leading to melting pot scenarios in the cities (which are, bar Tabriz, all reliant on Persian as the lingua franca).

For reference, in case this develops into a separate discussion, please note that the genetic difference between Turkic and non-Turkic speaking Iranian populations is less than that between their paired counterparts in Eastern Europe. Azeri Iranians and Turkmen don't have the same degree of East Eurasian admixture as, say, the Noghai, Chuvash or Tatar.

I just read your edited post before. Did you manage to learn more about those eastern european links you found? Where in eastern Europe is this link/s from?

DMXX
09-23-2016, 10:56 PM
I just read your edited post before. Did you manage to learn more about those eastern european links you found? Where in eastern Europe is this link/s from?

Yes. Three possibilities in my case:

1) By proxy through cryptic Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry (I'm sharing numerous segments with Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews; whether the Askhenazi is real or itself a vector of Iranian Jewish ancestry is another discussion in itself)
2) By proxy through North Caucasian ancestry (confirmed via Dodecad's Z-IBD stats for me)
3) Actual Eastern European ancestry

From memory, there were at least three segments that were >8cM and Davidski confirmed were very East European in origin. When 23andMe's Ancestry Finder was still up and running, most of these looked Russian or Ukrainian (non-Jewish). My Polish shared segments were mostly via the aforementioned Jewish matches and were smaller (2-4cM). I didn't have anything remarkable from the Baltic states.

Alternatively, they could just be medium-sized segments from prehistoric times around conservative areas of the genome that have happened to be preserved down the generations. For the reasons Volat stated, I find this scenario to be the most likely.

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 11:01 PM
Yes. Three possibilities in my case:

1) By proxy through cryptic Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry (I'm sharing numerous segments with Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews; whether the Askhenazi is real or itself a vector of Iranian Jewish ancestry is another discussion in itself)
2) By proxy through North Caucasian ancestry (confirmed via Dodecad's Z-IBD stats for me)
3) Actual Eastern European ancestry

From memory, there were at least three segments that were >8cM and Davidski confirmed were very East European in origin. When 23andMe's Ancestry Finder was still up and running, most of these looked Russian or Ukrainian (non-Jewish). My Polish shared segments were mostly via the aforementioned Jewish matches and were smaller (2-4cM). I didn't have anything remarkable from the Baltic states.

Alternatively, they could just be medium-sized segments from prehistoric times around conservative areas of the genome that have happened to be preserved down the generations. For the reasons Volat stated, I find this scenario to be the most likely.

Could it also be a remnant of your Azeri side? what with the whole soviet situation and so on. Either way, I know that you have a family tree, something remarkably rare for Iranians, but i think the fact that you had a second opinion via davidski should make for a pretty sound conclusion that something is there. I think regardless we need to stay open minded about these things and accept that anything could show up and account for why something else shows up.

DMXX
09-23-2016, 11:11 PM
No, my Azeri side is entirely from Iranian Azerbaijan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan_(Iran)) (i.e. the land south of the Aras river and in historical Azerbaijan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropatene)).

Soviet rule of Iranian Azerbaijan following WWII was in my grandparents' era (none of them were East European, so this can be ruled out). The only period where imperial Russia held the portions of northern Iran my ancestors hailed from was during the early-mid 18th century. However, that was only for a couple of years (two treaties were signed handing those territories back to Qajar Persia around a decade later).

Citing Volat's points once more, the cultural and situational chasm makes such a contribution extremely unlikely nonetheless. Imperial Russian military age men intermixing with my rural Azeri or Persian Muslim ancestors is about as likely as Soviet Russian military age men intermixing with rural Muslim Afghans in the early 1980's!

ancestryfan1994
09-23-2016, 11:13 PM
No, my Azeri side is entirely from Iranian Azerbaijan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan_(Iran)) (i.e. the land south of the Aras river and in historical Azerbaijan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropatene)).

Soviet rule of Iranian Azerbaijan following WWII was in my grandparents' era (none of them were East European, so this can be ruled out). The only period where imperial Russia held the portions of northern Iran my ancestors hailed from was during the early-mid 18th century. However, that was only for a couple of years (two treaties were signed handing those territories back to Qajar Persia around a decade later).

Citing Volat's points once more, the cultural and situational chasm makes such a contribution extremely unlikely nonetheless. Imperial Russian military age men intermixing with my rural Azeri or Persian Muslim ancestors is about as likely as Soviet Russian military age men intermixing with rural Muslim Afghans in the early 1980's!

My bad, I didn't double check on my history! Nonetheless if this is a real connection you have, it just adds further fuel to the fire that there is some hidden European ancestry in some Iranians.

Awale
09-24-2016, 12:04 AM
Iran's British connection
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/great-britain

Iran's French connection
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/france-index

Iran's Dutch connection

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/dutch-persian-relations

Iran's Russian connection
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/russia-i-relations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Iran


Connections of this sort really don't tend to translate into admixture. Seriously, unless there's clear-cut mass colonization in play in some form or other; things like British men showing up to work at oil rigs or colonial empires capturing some land or trade don't tend to leave much of a genetic impression (pretty much none). Sure, there might be the extremely rare person who has some random foreign ancestry because of some of these connections but overall; there's pretty much nothing. And this indeed seems to be the case with Iran as far as I've seen. It's the same all over the place. There are really no Somalis with Italian or British admixture, for example. Well, there are a few (I know a guy with a maternal British great grandfather from the protectorate era) but they're extremely rare, like extremely (= they're negligible).



there is some hidden European ancestry in some Iranians.

There is and it's usually because of:


Alternatively, they could just be medium-sized segments from prehistoric times around conservative areas of the genome that have happened to be preserved down the generations. For the reasons Volat stated, I find this scenario to be the most likely.

The steppe cultures which seemed to have been early Indo-Iranian speaking (Sintashta-Andronovo) had people who were seemingly quite similar to modern Northeastern Europeans and modern Iranians definitely have some admixture from them (granted, modern Iranians mainly look to be derived from Chalcolithic Iranians) so it's pretty likely that any "European", especially Eastern European, connections most Iranians show are a result of these pre-historic connections and not anything recent.

ancestryfan1994
09-24-2016, 12:11 AM
Connections [/I]of this sort really don't tend to translate into admixture. Seriously, unless there's clear-cut mass colonization in play in some form or other; things like British men showing up to work at oil rigs or colonial empires capturing some land or trade don't tend to leave much of a genetic impression (pretty much none). Sure, there might be the extremely rare person who has some random foreign ancestry because of some of these connections but overall; there's pretty much nothing. And this indeed seems to be the case with Iran as far as I've seen. It's the same all over the place. There are really no Somalis with Italian or British admixture, for example. Well, there are a few (I know a guy with a maternal British great grandfather from the protectorate era) but they're extremely rare, like extremely (= they're negligible).

Yeah these historical links don't actually mean admixture, but when for example, you are scoring a few Dutch cousins in 23andme and struggling to figure out how this came to be, they can be a good reference point to add more credibility to the claims. But again, not really to fully confirm it.

I know that in my own families case, there's some digging to do in order to confirm or dispel some possible connections. I hope we can get to the bottom of these soon, I know my brothers been speaking with davidski a lot who's been really helpful in answering some questions, lets see what comes of this whole thing. Though I wouldn't be surprised if these possible european links we've detected in our own family are real, (given that my family already are an outlier in respect to most Iranians with our east asian ancestry). Who's to say other elements are not at play? Iranians in general however? maybe not so much in terms of european ancestry.

Volat
09-24-2016, 03:56 AM
The steppe cultures which seemed to have been early Indo-Iranian speaking (Sintashta-Andronovo) had people who were seemingly quite similar to modern Northeastern Europeans and modern Iranians definitely have some admixture from them (granted, modern Iranians mainly look to be derived from Chalcolithic Iranians) so it's pretty likely that any "European", especially Eastern European, connections most Iranians show are a result of these pre-historic connections and not anything recent.

What modern day Iranians have from people of Sintashta is similare language. Y-DNA and autosomal DNA of Iranians are similar to those of people living in the Arabian peninsula. People of Sintashta are genetically to eastern Europeans. Y-chromosome marker of the sample tested were R1a-Z93. Iranic speaking Tajiks and Pushtuns are more similar to people of Sintashta in this regards than Iranians.

Tsakhur
09-24-2016, 05:27 AM
What modern day Iranians have from people of Sintashta is similare language. Y-DNA and autosomal DNA of Iranians are similar to those of people living in the Arabian peninsula. People of Sintashta are genetically to eastern Europeans. Y-chromosome marker of the sample tested were R1a-Z93. Iranic speaking Tajiks and Pushtuns are more similar to people of Sintashta in this regards than Iranians.

Umm no. The autosomal DNA of Iranians are definitely different from those living in Arabian peninsula.

ancestryfan1994
09-24-2016, 05:32 AM
Umm no. The autosomal DNA of Iranians are definitely different from those living in Arabian peninsula.

It's clear he's either trolling, or just not mentally capable of providing logical information. I'd ignore him personally.

Volat
09-24-2016, 05:41 AM
Umm no. The autosomal DNA of Iranians are definitely different from those living in Arabian peninsula.

There are genetic differences within Iranians, if we search for them. In genetic context of the world, Iranians and Arabs are from the same stock.

Volat
09-24-2016, 05:42 AM
It's clear he's either trolling, or just not mentally capable of providing logical information. I'd ignore him personally.

Trolling is not my agenda. I doubt your intellectual capacity.

ancestryfan1994
09-24-2016, 05:45 AM
There are genetic differences within Iranians, if we search for them. In genetic context of the world, Iranians and Arabs are from the same stock.

Where did you find this stuff? The comedy is hilarious!

Tell me....how are they both of the same stock, if one is identified as a Semitic group of people while the other is not? I'm curious to hear your explanation.

Volat
09-24-2016, 05:50 AM
Where did you find this stuff? The comedy is hilarious!

Tell me....how are they both of the same stock, if one is identified as a Semitic group of people while the other is not? I'm curious to hear your explanation.

Ethnic identity has little to do with genetic ancestry. The 'stuff' that I came up about genetic similarity between Iranians and Arabs is a common knowledge.

ancestryfan1994
09-24-2016, 06:22 AM
Ethnic identity has little to do with genetic ancestry. The 'stuff' that I came up about genetic similarity between Iranians and Arabs is a common knowledge.

Whatever, this isn't the thread for your nonsense. Seriously, if your not going to contribute to this thread accordingly then please...take your fantasies elsewhere. For the second time now you're derailing the point of conversation into complete stupidity.

Volat
09-24-2016, 06:43 AM
Whatever, this isn't the thread for your nonsense. Seriously, if your not going to contribute to this thread accordingly then please...take your fantasies elsewhere. For the second time now you're derailing the point of conversation into complete stupidity.

I don't derail topics or troll forum members. Stupidity is in the very title of this topic. If you don't have to contribute anything worthwhile to this forum, then take your 'stuff' elsewhere.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-24-2016, 06:57 AM
Yeah these historical links don't actually mean admixture, but when for example, you are scoring a few Dutch cousins in 23andme and struggling to figure out how this came to be, they can be a good reference point to add more credibility to the claims. But again, not really to fully confirm it.

I know that in my own families case, there's some digging to do in order to confirm or dispel some possible connections. I hope we can get to the bottom of these soon, I know my brothers been speaking with davidski a lot who's been really helpful in answering some questions, lets see what comes of this whole thing. Though I wouldn't be surprised if these possible european links we've detected in our own family are real, (given that my family already are an outlier in respect to most Iranians with our east asian ancestry). Who's to say other elements are not at play? Iranians in general however? maybe not so much in terms of european ancestry.

I have East Europeans, especially slavs showing up as cousins on 23&me, some even closer than Indians, don't even want to start gedmatch comparison. Have few Hispanic matches who have known Portuguese ancestry. But that does not mean it's recent as it's geographically impossible, which makes it like Awale said, related to prehistoric times.

If you're going solely on your cousin matches on 23&me, then it's hardly recent. Haryana Jatts for example from India, extremely conservative and closed community, score 18-20% European mixture, which is again, just prehistoric mixture.

ancestryfan1994
09-24-2016, 07:03 AM
I have East Europeans, especially slavs showing up as cousins on 23&me, don't even want to start gedmatch comparison. Have few Hispanic matches who have known Portuguese ancestry. But that does not mean it's recent as it's geographically impossible, which makes it like Awale said, related to prehistoric times.

If you're going solely on your cousin matches on 23&me, then it's hardly recent. Haryana Jatts for example from India, extremely conservative and closed community, score 18-20% European mixture, which is again, just prehistoric mixture.

Some stuff, in regards to our own families possible links, need further verification before being able to say for sure if its a real connection or not. So I'm hesitant to state something based on cousins alone, like you, I also really doubt the GEDmatch segments. However, there may be some other things that have more evidence to them, like a while back when davidski was kindly helping my brother out by looking at his genome, if i remember correctly when i skimmed through the outcome, some Italian admixture was detected. That is something i wouldn't mind being revisited at some point just to fully clear things up though. This thread isn't solely based on my families history though, its more about seeing if this thing exists in Iran as a whole but on a smaller scale compared to what were used to seeing.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-24-2016, 07:12 AM
Some stuff, in regards to our own families possible links, need further verification before being able to say for sure if its a real connection or not. So I'm hesitant to state something based on cousins alone, like you, I also really doubt the GEDmatch segments. However, there may be some other things that have more evidence to them, like a while back when davidski was kindly helping my brother out by looking at his genome, if i remember correctly when i skimmed through the outcome, Italian admixture was detected. That is something i wouldn't mind being revisited at some point just to fully clear things up though. This thread isn't solely based on my families history though, its more about seeing if this thing exists in Iran as a whole but on a smaller scale.

Definitely not deniable on port cities, since there has always been mixing on Busy Ports and Multi Cultural hubs. What makes it hard is religion differences like DMXX said. Mixing among Iranian Christians and Iranian jews with European merchants is definitely possible though.

ancestryfan1994
09-24-2016, 07:16 AM
Definitely not deniable on port cities, since there has always been mixing on Busy Ports and Multi Cultural hubs. What makes it hard is religion differences like DMXX said. Mixing among Iranian Christians and Iranian jews with European merchants is definitely possible though.

This is where things fall into place, because my family are from the south of Iran, around the port areas, with a history of merchants. So it's not hard to believe that my family may just be an outlier in regards to most Iranians you'll find.

DMXX
09-24-2016, 07:18 AM
What modern day Iranians have from people of Sintashta is similare language. Y-DNA and autosomal DNA of Iranians are similar to those of people living in the Arabian peninsula.


Incorrect on all counts...

1) Y-DNA R1a1a-Z93 is around 15-25% in numerous Iranian and Kurdish groups, whereas it is around 1-5% in other Near-Eastern populations (including Armenians).

2) Overall, Iranians and Kurds resemble other South Caucasians closest in terms of both auDNA and the uniparentals. They are, however, very much their own biogeographic group compared to them.

3) You might be entertained to read that Iranians have GD's with Saudis and other Arabian Peninsular populations that are almost equivalent to Finns and other Baltic populations in numerous calculators. Run any DIY ADMIXTURE calculator to see for yourself. From memory, it's around the GD=70-74 mark.

4) Davidski and Kurd have both independently shown modern Iranians are effectively a straight mix of Iran_ChL and steppe. Kurds are a bit more complex, but they will be similar in proportions. Peninsular Arabs have neither component in abundance.



People of Sintashta are genetically [most similar?] to eastern Europeans. Y-chromosome marker of the sample tested were R1a-Z93.

Iranic speaking Tajiks and Pushtuns are more similar to people of Sintashta in this regards than Iranians.

Both correct.

Volat
09-24-2016, 07:31 AM
Incorrect on all counts...

1) Y-DNA R1a1a-Z93 is around 15-25% in numerous Iranian and Kurdish groups, whereas it is around 1-5% in other Near-Eastern populations (including Armenians).

2) Overall, Iranians and Kurds resemble other South Caucasians closest in terms of both auDNA and the uniparentals. They are, however, very much their own biogeographic group compared to them.

3) You might be entertained to read that Iranians have GD's with Saudis and other Arabian Peninsular populations that are almost equivalent to Finns and other Baltic populations in numerous calculators. Run any DIY ADMIXTURE calculator to see for yourself. From memory, it's around the GD=70-74 mark.

4) Davidski and Kurd have both independently shown modern Iranians are effectively a straight mix of Iran_ChL and steppe. Kurds are a bit more complex, but they will be similar in proportions. Peninsular Arabs have neither component in abundance.





Assuming you are correct about the frequency of Z93 y-chromosome marker among Iranians, is this a large number? Turkic Kyrgyz and native of Altai Khakassians have z93 around 60%. Do they also have European ancestry?


Let’s look at genome-wide comparison of Iranian population in comparison to other populations of Europe , Caucases and the Middle Eastern populations. Below, Iranians are labeled as (InJ) plotted right next to Iraqi (IrJ). Look where Baltic Lithuanians, eastern Slavs (Belarusians, Russians, Ukrainians) are on the plot.

Here’s a conclusion of the published study.

The Caucasus as an asymmetric semipermeable barrier to ancient human migrations http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/09/13/molbev.msr221.abstract



Genetic discontinuity between the North Caucasus and the East European Plain contrasts with continuity through Anatolia and the Balkans, suggesting major routes of ancient gene flows and admixture.




http://s14.postimg.org/6du1qf4o1/F1_large_jpg_JPEG_Image_911_1280_pixels.png

DMXX
09-24-2016, 07:45 AM
Assuming you are correct about the frequency of Z93 y-chromosome marker among Iranians, is this a large number? Turkic Kyrgyz and native of Altai Khakassians have z93 around 60%. Do they also have European ancestry?


Altaians and other East-Central Asians also have prehistoric European ancestry per the Pontic-Caspian steppe theory, certainly. Please note their frequencies of Y-DNA Z93 are due to historical bottlenecks.

There's no reason to assume I am correct. Refer to Grugni et al. 2012. Most comprehensive sampling of Iranian Y-DNA to date.

I recommend you also kindly do the necessary prerequisites to have this discussion meaningfully, otherwise I (and others) will just be regurgitating accumulated information that has been plastered all over other threads on this forum.



Let’s look at genome-wide comparison of Iranian population in comparison to other populations of Europe , Caucases and the Middle Eastern populations. Below, Iranians are labeled as (InJ) plotted right next to Iraqi (IrJ). Look where Baltic Lithuanians, eastern Slavs (Belarusians, Russians, Ukrainians) are on the plot.

Here’s a conclusion of the published study.

The Caucasus as an asymmetric semipermeable barrier to ancient human migrations http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/09/13/molbev.msr221.abstract


You are misreading the plot. Iranians are Irn. IrJ are Iranian Jews.

Iranians and Turks are eastern-shifted due to their ENA and/or ANE-related admixture.

Otherwise, they'd be sitting on that cline with Armenians, Georgians and Abkhazians. For a better demonstration of that, look up one of Davidski's PCA plots.

Also, nobody has made the ludicrous assertion that Iranians are "close" to Europeans, which is what you seem to be reacting to again. Iranians are what they are per geography on the whole (Central Asian-shifted West Asians).

Volat
09-24-2016, 08:00 AM
Altaians and other East-Central Asians also have prehistoric European ancestry per the Pontic-Caspian steppe theory, certainly. Please note their frequencies of Y-DNA Z93 are due to historical bottlenecks.

There's no reason to assume I am correct. Refer to Grugni et al. 2012. Most comprehensive sampling of Iranian Y-DNA to date.

I recommend you also kindly do the necessary prerequisites to have this discussion meaningfully, otherwise I (and others) will just be regurgitating accumulated information that has been plastered all over other threads on this forum.

Altains having European ancestry is more of a wishful thinking. Modern day Kyrgyz are migrants from Altai mountain, hence they show genetic and linguistic similarities with Khakassian. By the same taken one can also assume 15-25% of Z93 among Iranians is the result of the founder or bottle-neck effect.






You are misreading the plot. Iranians are Irn. IrJ are Iranian Jews.

Iranians and Turks are eastern-shifted due to their ENA and/or ANE-related admixture.

Otherwise, they'd be sitting on that cline with Armenians, Georgians and Abkhazians. For a better demonstration of that, look up one of Davidski's PCA plots.

Also, nobody has made the ludicrous assertion that Iranians are "close" to Europeans, which is what you seem to be reacting to again. Iranians are what they are per geography on the whole (Central Asian-shifted West Asians).

Then look at Syrian population on the plot. They are not far from Iranians. Saudi are certainly a lot more similar to Iranians than Iranians to any European population. I am reacting to ludicrous assertions of a certain member who is exaggerating European ancestry among Iranians. We share similar genes. But stating Iranians have European ancestry is far-fetched. Iranians have no more European ancestry than most populations of the Middle East.

Let's see calculator output for Iranians from the MDLP World project (I have it on my computer). I'd post HarrapaWorld output later.


Looking at the output if Oracle calculator for Iranian population Iraqi population is right at the top. There are no European populations among top closest 50 populations in the project.


MDLP World




> MOracle("Iranian", k=56)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Iranian" "0"
[2,] "Kurd" "8.8165"
[3,] "Jew-Uzbekistan" "9.4382"
[4,] "Azeri" "10.3605"
[5,] "Jew_Kurd" "10.6428"
[6,] "Iraqi" "11.6043"
[7,] "Jew-Iran" "13.6938"
[8,] "Turk" "14.5561"
[9,] "Jew-Iraqi" "15.0073"
[10,] "Armenian" "15.435"
[11,] "Jew_Georgia" "16.0913"
[12,] "Syrian" "17.1677"
[13,] "Parsi" "17.6204"
[14,] "Lebanese" "19.1549"
[15,] "Druze" "19.9141"
[16,] "Georgian_Laz" "20.1276"
[17,] "Kumyk" "20.3411"
[18,] "Georgian" "21.0328"
[19,] "NorthOssetian" "22.6422"
[20,] "Cirkassian" "22.8836"
[21,] "Kabardinian" "23.0269"
[22,] "Turkmen" "23.1465"
[23,] "Ossetian" "23.1799"
[24,] "Adygei" "23.2416"
[25,] "Balkarian" "23.3559"
[26,] "Chechen" "24.1487"
[27,] "Makrani" "24.2279"
[28,] "Jordanian" "24.4802"
[29,] "Georgian_Imereti" "25.139"
[30,] "Jew_Syria" "25.5672"
[31,] "Lezgin" "25.7101"
[32,] "Brahui" "26.245"
[33,] "Greek_Azov" "26.3646"
[34,] "Cypriot" "26.9151"
[35,] "Palestinian" "26.9852"
[36,] "Pashtun" "27.6841"
[37,] "Lak" "27.7678"
[38,] "Abhkasian" "27.8848"
[39,] "Tadjik" "27.8901"
[40,] "Tabassaran" "28.1157"
[41,] "Balochi" "28.2515"
[42,] "Nogai" "29.6159"
[43,] "Samaritian" "30.2648"
[44,] "Avar" "30.9354"
[45,] "Tatar_Crim" "31.1355"
[46,] "Greek_Cretan" "31.3836"
[47,] "Costanoan" "32.2172"
[48,] "Pathan" "33.0813"
[49,] "Yemen" "33.3396"
[50,] "Sephardim" "35.9106"
[51,] "Burusho" "36.1722"
[52,] "Uzbek" "36.3044"
[53,] "Ashkenazim" "36.9347"
[54,] "Roma" "37.232"
[55,] "Sindhi" "37.8153"
[56,] "Egyptian" "37.9422"

ancestryfan1994
09-24-2016, 01:25 PM
Altains having European ancestry is more of a wishful thinking. Modern day Kyrgyz are migrants from Altai mountain, hence they show genetic and linguistic similarities with Khakassian. By the same taken one can also assume 15-25% of Z93 among Iranians is the result of the founder or bottle-neck effect.



Then look at Syrian population on the plot. They are not far from Iranians. Saudi are certainly a lot more similar to Iranians than Iranians to any European population. I am reacting to ludicrous assertions of a certain member who is exaggerating European ancestry among Iranians. We share similar genes. But stating Iranians have European ancestry is far-fetched. Iranians have no more European ancestry than most populations of the Middle East.

Let's see calculator output for Iranians from the MDLP World project (I have it on my computer). I'd post HarrapaWorld output later.


Looking at the output if Oracle calculator for Iranian population Iraqi population is right at the top. There are no European populations among top closest 50 populations in the project.


MDLP World




> MOracle("Iranian", k=56)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Iranian" "0"
[2,] "Kurd" "8.8165"
[3,] "Jew-Uzbekistan" "9.4382"
[4,] "Azeri" "10.3605"
[5,] "Jew_Kurd" "10.6428"
[6,] "Iraqi" "11.6043"
[7,] "Jew-Iran" "13.6938"
[8,] "Turk" "14.5561"
[9,] "Jew-Iraqi" "15.0073"
[10,] "Armenian" "15.435"
[11,] "Jew_Georgia" "16.0913"
[12,] "Syrian" "17.1677"
[13,] "Parsi" "17.6204"
[14,] "Lebanese" "19.1549"
[15,] "Druze" "19.9141"
[16,] "Georgian_Laz" "20.1276"
[17,] "Kumyk" "20.3411"
[18,] "Georgian" "21.0328"
[19,] "NorthOssetian" "22.6422"
[20,] "Cirkassian" "22.8836"
[21,] "Kabardinian" "23.0269"
[22,] "Turkmen" "23.1465"
[23,] "Ossetian" "23.1799"
[24,] "Adygei" "23.2416"
[25,] "Balkarian" "23.3559"
[26,] "Chechen" "24.1487"
[27,] "Makrani" "24.2279"
[28,] "Jordanian" "24.4802"
[29,] "Georgian_Imereti" "25.139"
[30,] "Jew_Syria" "25.5672"
[31,] "Lezgin" "25.7101"
[32,] "Brahui" "26.245"
[33,] "Greek_Azov" "26.3646"
[34,] "Cypriot" "26.9151"
[35,] "Palestinian" "26.9852"
[36,] "Pashtun" "27.6841"
[37,] "Lak" "27.7678"
[38,] "Abhkasian" "27.8848"
[39,] "Tadjik" "27.8901"
[40,] "Tabassaran" "28.1157"
[41,] "Balochi" "28.2515"
[42,] "Nogai" "29.6159"
[43,] "Samaritian" "30.2648"
[44,] "Avar" "30.9354"
[45,] "Tatar_Crim" "31.1355"
[46,] "Greek_Cretan" "31.3836"
[47,] "Costanoan" "32.2172"
[48,] "Pathan" "33.0813"
[49,] "Yemen" "33.3396"
[50,] "Sephardim" "35.9106"
[51,] "Burusho" "36.1722"
[52,] "Uzbek" "36.3044"
[53,] "Ashkenazim" "36.9347"
[54,] "Roma" "37.232"
[55,] "Sindhi" "37.8153"
[56,] "Egyptian" "37.9422"



Like people have already said, and they're piling up on you as well, you have completely missed the plot of this conversation and what i have been trying to ask from this thread. We keep going back in circles and its tiring me to be honest, you keep posting here about this obsession with proving that Iranians are not european genetically, something we all know already to be the case. I also advise you, like DMXX said, to take some time to go over exactly what this threads intentions are before you post here again.

ancestryfan1994
09-24-2016, 01:29 PM
Some interesting demographic information on Iran's past history with regards to hormuz and how much of a gathering ground it was for people from all over the world. Taken from iranica. This again doesn't reflect admixture, but gives a sense of idea about what sort of interactions may have occurred.



Abd-al-Razzāq Samarqandi (R. H. Major, ed., India in the Fifteenth Century, London, 1857, Part 1, pp. 5-7), who was in Hormuz in 1442, found it a major emporium, frequented by the merchants from Egypt, Syria, Anatolia, all Persian provinces, Turkestan, southern Russia, China, Java, Bengal, Tenasserim, Shahr-e nao (i.e., Thailand), Socotra, Bijapur, the Maldives, Malabar, Abyssinia, Zanzibar, Vijayanagar, Golbarga, Gujarat, Cambay, Arabia, Aden, Jedda, and Yemen. Afanasy Nikitine, the Russian traveler (ca. 1472) referred to it as “a vast emporium where there were peoples and goods of every description from all parts of the world,” although with high customs duties (Major; Nikitine, p. 21, apud Lockhart, p. 585). “The Venetian J. Barbaro, who also visited Hormuz some years later, likewise praised it as a commercial center” (Stanley, ed., p. 79, apud Lockhart, p. 585).


In 1617 de Silva y Figueroa estimated the number of households at 2,500-3,000, of which 200 were Portuguese.

Volat
09-24-2016, 01:42 PM
Like people have already said, and they're piling up on you as well, you have completely missed the plot of this conversation and what i have been trying to ask from this thread. We keep going back in circles and its tiring me to be honest, you keep posting here about this obsession with proving that Iranians are not european genetically, something we all know already to be the case. I also advise you, like DMXX said, to take some time to go over exactly what this threads intentions are before you post here again.

Which forum members wrote I lost the plot? DMXX and I know what we are discussing. DMXX and I may have disagreements, but we understand each other. What you write doesn't make much any sense. I am doubting your intellectual capacity. :)

ancestryfan1994
09-24-2016, 01:48 PM
What people wrote I lost the plot? DMXX and I know what we are discussing. DMXX and I may have disagreements, but we understand each other. What you write doesn't much any sense. I am doubting your intellectual capacity. :)

You tried to insist that Iranians and Arabs are genetically similar, he just posted against this notion. Once again, it seems your having difficulty reading through this thread, with a clear inability to comprehend things. Please, read through everything from start to end again, and read carefully this time. And one more time, after this i simply won't respond to you, stop derailing this thread to "iran and europeans genetic similarities", thats not what this threads about.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-24-2016, 02:29 PM
Volat while I know you're genuine member here, I'm pretty sure the OP is talking about European mixture in some Persians through various times in history, Trading being the biggest. Like how some sri lankans have arab mixture because both communities used to trade spices and gold in old time.

Volat
09-24-2016, 02:51 PM
Volat while I know you're genuine member here, I'm pretty sure the OP is talking about European mixture in some Persians through various times in history, Trading being the biggest. Like how some sri lankans have arab mixture because both communities used to trade spices and gold in old time.

Hello MonkeyDluffy!

I am trying to be genuine to everyone on forums and real life. I maybe more European than most folks.I am a a north-eastern Belarusian genetically similar to Lithuanians, Latvians, north-western Russians, north-eastern Poles. I know Siberians, Aboriginals of Australia, Indians of America, Africans of Americas have European ancestries. Tajiks, Pashtuns, Turkmens have European ancestries through ancient Indo-Aryan connection who lived in eastern Europe. But Persians? They are linguistic shifters genetically most similar to people of Arabian Peninsula, who are nothing like us. Tajiks and Pashtuns are genetically more similar to eastern Europeans than Persians.

I've lost my cool reading the starter of the topic. You can think of me whatever you want , but the OP of this topic is clueless thinking Persians have European ancestry.

Megalophias
09-24-2016, 03:21 PM
Which forum members wrote I lost the plot? DMXX and I know what we are discussing. DMXX and I may have disagreements, but we understand each other. What you write doesn't make much any sense. I am doubting your intellectual capacity. :)
I for one think that you lost the plot, and that your behaviour in this thread is bizarre.

Volat
09-24-2016, 03:47 PM
I for one think that you lost the plot, and that your behaviour in this thread is bizarre.

I may have lost the plot. My behaviour is bizzare in your opinion. But I am standing by my words. The OP of the topic is intellectually challenged.

A Norfolk L-M20
09-24-2016, 07:15 PM
I enjoyed reading: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/great-britain-vii

However, for purely selfish reasons, I'd love to know of any accounts in the opposite direction. As I explained, my Y line moved most likely from the Iran / Pakistan region to Southern England, quite likely within one generation (based on evidence so far), sometime most likely between AD 300 and AD 1680. I'm imaging trade links and merchants, alternatively, slavery, servitude, mercenary, diplomatic, adventurer? I'm pushing my hypothesis a little bit, but I'm imagining a Y grandfather most likely Late Medieval, making his way from that part of Asia to Southern England. Most likely by Sea. What do you guys think could have been most likely? Any Persian stories or records of travel to NW Europe?

ancestryfan1994
09-24-2016, 07:27 PM
I enjoyed reading: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/great-britain-vii

However, for purely selfish reasons, I'd love to know of any accounts in the opposite direction. As I explained, my Y line moved most likely from the Iran / Pakistan region to Southern England, quite likely within one generation (based on evidence so far), sometime most likely between AD 300 and AD 1680. I'm imaging trade links and merchants, alternatively, slavery, servitude, mercenary, diplomatic, adventurer? I'm pushing my hypothesis a little bit, but I'm imagining a Y grandfather most likely Late Medieval, making his way from that part of Asia to Southern England. Most likely by Sea. What do you guys think could have been most likely? Any Persian stories or records of travel to NW Europe?

I know that Iranians have had a presence in Spain dating back to the 10th century, so who's to say they didn't also travel down to the coasts of Britain. Though i haven't searched for historical documentation for this.

A Norfolk L-M20
09-24-2016, 07:33 PM
I know that Iranians have had a presence in Spain dating back to the 10th century, so who's to say they didn't also travel down to the coasts of Britain. Though i haven't searched for historical documentation for this.

That actually really is helpful, and an insight, if only if as background for "what might have happened". I'm always wary that what we imagine, based on our own biased interpretations of history, can often created mythology of origin. However, with that in consideration, I do share a lot of STR markers with an American of Azores ancestry. That Portugal had an age old treaty and relationship with England (and later Britain), stretching back to C14, does make me suspect a link there.

DMXX
09-24-2016, 09:13 PM
Altains having European ancestry is more of a wishful thinking. Modern day Kyrgyz are migrants from Altai mountain, hence they show genetic and linguistic similarities with Khakassian. By the same taken one can also assume 15-25% of Z93 among Iranians is the result of the founder or bottle-neck effect.


Population density in the Iranian plateau has been fairly substantial since the Neolithic. This wasn't so on the steppes in large part, on the other hand, and particularly around the Altai.

Once more, I recommend undertaking the basic prerequisites regarding Iranian ethnogenesis before framing such suppositions as valid counter-arguments.

Also, once more, nobody is insisting Altaians have (recent) European ancestry.

You're reacting to phantom arguments and it is becoming tiresome.



Then look at Syrian population on the plot. They are not far from Iranians. Saudi are certainly a lot more similar to Iranians than Iranians to any European population.

Another phantom argument response.

Syrians certainly are closer to Iranians than Iranians are to Europeans.



I am reacting to ludicrous assertions of a certain member who is exaggerating European ancestry among Iranians. We share similar genes. But stating Iranians have European ancestry is far-fetched. Iranians have no more European ancestry than most populations of the Middle East.


I agree with you, and even the OP agrees on the whole.

I do not understand why you insist on focusing on this tangential topic (how close Iranians are genetically to Europeans), when nobody in this thread has an interest in discussing it.

Your entire premise is based on an alternate interpretation of the OP. We've established that Iranians obviously don't have significant recent European ancestry.

Please let this die, as it should have, several pages back.



Let's see calculator output for Iranians from the MDLP World project (I have it on my computer). I'd post HarrapaWorld output later.


Looking at the output if Oracle calculator for Iranian population Iraqi population is right at the top. There are no European populations among top closest 50 populations in the project.


You'll have a much better indication with respect to population affinities with the newer calculators. My comment was with respect to Iranians against Saudis/Bedouins and Baltic populations.

The introduction of CHG and Iran_ChL/N has substantially shifted the GD patterns seen in previous calculators. For instance, from memory, Iranians paired better with North Caucasians than Levant populations with CHG's presence alone.

Tsakhur
09-24-2016, 09:29 PM
The introduction of CHG and Iran_ChL/N has substantially shifted the GD patterns seen in previous calculators. For instance, from memory, Iranians paired better with North Caucasians than Levant populations with CHG's presence alone.

I have saw Iranians plotting near South Caucasians and Turks as well on PCAs. Is this likely to due to CHG and Iran ChL/ N? I also think that Iranians are genetically a lot closer to South Caucasians, Turks, some Mesopotamians and probably North Caucasians and Afghans than to Levant populations.

ancestryfan1994
09-24-2016, 10:36 PM
Population density in the Iranian plateau has been fairly substantial since the Neolithic. This wasn't so on the steppes in large part, on the other hand, and particularly around the Altai.

Once more, I recommend undertaking the basic prerequisites regarding Iranian ethnogenesis before framing such suppositions as valid counter-arguments.

Also, once more, nobody is insisting Altaians have (recent) European ancestry.

You're reacting to phantom arguments and it is becoming tiresome.



Another phantom argument response.

Syrians certainly are closer to Iranians than Iranians are to Europeans.



I agree with you, and even the OP agrees on the whole.

I do not understand why you insist on focusing on this tangential topic (how close Iranians are genetically to Europeans), when nobody in this thread has an interest in discussing it.

Your entire premise is based on an alternate interpretation of the OP. We've established that Iranians obviously don't have significant recent European ancestry.

Please let this die, as it should have, several pages back.



You'll have a much better indication with respect to population affinities with the newer calculators. My comment was with respect to Iranians against Saudis/Bedouins and Baltic populations.

The introduction of CHG and Iran_ChL/N has substantially shifted the GD patterns seen in previous calculators. For instance, from memory, Iranians paired better with North Caucasians than Levant populations with CHG's presence alone.

The funny thing is he mentions reacting to claims of an "exaggeration of European ancestry in Iran" made by myself, yet, if he reads my posts carefully he'll realise I acknowledge and state very clearly that any European ancestry and influence in Iran is very minimum. That is the whole point of this thread, to uncover and dive into this very rare and unknown thing that may occur among select families in Iran, yet for some reason he believes I'm trying to portray the notion that "Iranians = europeans"....

At this point its hard to believe that he's not just trolling for the sake of it, as I'm struggling to understand how somebody can't grasp onto such a simple thing, when many members here have already told him what this thread is about, and what my intentions and opinions were when posting this thread.

Abd.H
09-24-2016, 11:10 PM
11813

DMXX
09-24-2016, 11:44 PM
At this point its hard to believe that he's not just trolling for the sake of it, as I'm struggling to understand how somebody can't grasp onto such a simple thing, when many members here have already told him what this thread is about, and what my intentions and opinions were when posting this thread.

Rest assured that, at this stage, the intention of your thread is abundantly clear, so I'll have no problems with the administrative team pruning out subsequent messages akin to those made in previous pages from here on.

The wording was ambiguous in some lines in your opening post to be fair, but establishing the intent once should have sufficed. This has become needlessly laborious and I see no benefit in entertaining Volat's tangents any further here.


I have saw Iranians plotting near South Caucasians and Turks as well on PCAs. Is this likely to due to CHG and Iran ChL/ N? I also think that Iranians are genetically a lot closer to South Caucasians, Turks, some Mesopotamians and probably North Caucasians and Afghans than to Levant populations.

The inter-relationship between Iran_N and the other ancient components is still uncertain at this point.

The hefty amount of Basal Eurasian in these populations (expressed through Iran_N, Iran_ChL and CHG) probably has a large part to do with it. There also appears to be something related to EHG (I've interpreted this as just another variant of ANE and not actual EHG from Eastern Europe, a position Davidski agrees with I suspect) present in them. Also, there's a sizable amount of EEF present (either directly so, via Iran_ChL or through steppe populations).

The above is based on a schematic in Lazaridis et al. 2016 which I'm having trouble locating at the moment.

ancestryfan1994
09-25-2016, 04:50 PM
Here is an excerpt from wikipedia that describes the historic contacts between Iranians and the lands that would become known as Russia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranians_in_Russia



People from the former and contemporary boundaries of Iran have a long history in the territory of what is modern-day Russia, stretching back thousands of years. Throughout history, the Caucasus region was usually incorporated into the Iranian world,[3] and large parts of it were ruled by empires based in modern-day Iran for a time span encompassing many centuries, or were under its direct influence. From the early 16th century up to including the early 19th century, Transcaucasia and a part of the North Caucasus (namely Dagestan), were ruled by the successive Safavid, Afsharid, and Qajar dynasties of Iran, and made up part of the latters very concept for three centuries.[4] In the course of the 19th century, by the Treaty of Gulistan of 1813 and the Treaty of Turkmenchay of 1828, Iran ceded the region to Russia. Ever since, the Dagestan region still makes up part of Russia.[5]

The Tats are amongst the native inhabitants of the Northern Caucasus and descent from Iranian settlers from during the Sasanian Empire.


Russian church, Qazvin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Church,_Qazvin

St Nicholas church, Tehran

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Nicholas_Church,_Tehran


At the end of the 16th century a monk Nicephorus,[1] founded the first Russian parish on the land of Persia. A Russian spiritual mission was operating in Iran by the beginning of the 20th century, and by 1917 there were about fifty Russian Orthodox churches.

ancestryfan1994
09-29-2016, 11:30 PM
The Greek community in Iran

http://kavehfarrokh.com/uncategorized/evangelos-venetis-greeks-in-modern-iran/

http://hellasfrappe.blogspot.com/2012/02/forgotten-hellenes-of-middle-east.html#sbJYTvi2kgrwISS7.99

This is a community that is practically non existent today, but did have some healthy numbers in the past.

rafael
11-14-2016, 12:50 PM
Your right, however i think we're missing the point of this thread, I'm well aware of Iran's obvious turkic admixture. What i think people often tend to overlook is the slight possibility for links outside of the region. For example, you mention the Russians, I know and have heard of some Iranians (and even a close kurdish friend of mine) who have some Russian ancestry, so there was indeed some mixing that happened.

If there is any european admixture from Europe, its most likely found in people like my own family, who have lived on the coastal areas of Iran and were merchants involved in trade, this would have given them the opportunity to make contact with the outside world, something the other more central parts maybe never did.

Some Iranians such as kurds claim russian ancestry but I think the case is that their "Russian ancestry" is just caucasian ezidi kurd ancestry from south caucasus but since south caucasus was Russia back in the days many mistake it to Russian Slavic ancestry which is most likely totally not the case.

ancestryfan1994
11-14-2016, 01:23 PM
Some Iranians such as kurds claim russian ancestry but I think the case is that their "Russian ancestry" is just caucasian ezidi kurd ancestry from south caucasus but since south caucasus was Russia back in the days many mistake it to Russian Slavic ancestry which is most likely totally not the case.

Could be, depends on the individual. Genealogy is not a strong point for Iranians, but I recall a few times where actual Iranians have had legit slavic Russian ancestry, the links show a few famous examples.

rafael
11-15-2016, 10:01 PM
Could be, depends on the individual. Genealogy is not a strong point for Iranians, but I recall a few times where actual Iranians have had legit slavic Russian ancestry, the links show a few famous examples.

Yeah it certainly does seem to be so with some Iranians. However I don't quite know does the Iranians with Russian Connection count though? I mean I know that it is a vague subject and for different people European means different thing but in my view Russians are not Europeans. I like to think that ''Actual'' Europeans are of Dutch, German, Swiss & French descent. I Do know that Spaniards, Portuguese, Italians & Greeks are just as Europeans Genetically (R1b) besides Greeks who are mostly E-V13 but nonetheless I don't consider them to be the same Europeans culturally as the above mentioned nationalities. Hell we could add Italians, Portuguese, Spaniards & Greeks to the list. I guess they are just their own sort of Europeans. After all Greeks & Italians did play a major role in developing what we now see as European :)

If we exclude Christianity then to me Slavic and Iranian cultures have much more in common compared to what Russians have with the other Europeans. And by culture I mean the elements which derived from the historical connection between Slavs & Iranians. High frequency of R1a, common words, ancient clothing, tombs & etc. Yes nowadays we can't even compare those two.
So that's why to me Russians are just little too similar to Iranians to be called as Europeans. I hope you get the picture :)

ancestryfan1994
11-15-2016, 10:15 PM
Yeah it certainly does seem to be so with some Iranians. However I don't quite know does the Iranians with Russian Connection count though? I mean I know that it is a vague subject and for different people European means different thing but in my view Russians are not Europeans. I like to think that ''Actual'' Europeans are of Dutch, German, Swiss & French descent. I Do know that Spaniards, Portuguese, Italians & Greeks are just as Europeans Genetically (R1b) besides Greeks who are mostly E-V13 but nonetheless I don't consider them to be the same Europeans culturally as the above mentioned nationalities. Hell we could add Italians, Portuguese, Spaniards & Greeks to the list. I guess they are just their own sort of Europeans. After all Greeks & Italians did play a major role in developing what we now see as European :)

If we exclude Christianity then to me Slavic and Iranian cultures have much more in common compared to what Russians have with the other Europeans. And by culture I mean the elements which derived from the historical connection between Slavs & Iranians. High frequency of R1a, common words, ancient clothing, tombs & etc. Yes nowadays we can't even compare those two.
So that's why to me Russians are just little too similar to Iranians to be called as Europeans. I hope you get the picture :)

It depends. I'd say it counts, Russia is a massive place though, so if the Russian ancestry in question is really say, Ossetian, or even Avar, then I would tend to agree with you that it doesn't really count as european, because Ossetians are an "Iranian" group, apparently. But slavic Russian counts as european IMO, phenotypically, and ancestral wise they might even derive some connections to mainland Europe like German ancestry etc. I also fail to see this surprising similarities between Iranians and Russians? Different languages, different ethnic groups, and really, completely different cultures to be honest.

Cfc123
09-03-2018, 10:39 AM
I can confirm that Iranians have had European influences. From both my parents side I have relatives that have green eyes and white skin even with lighter coloured hair. I took an ancestry dna test and 15% of me was Italian with 3% Iberian and 1% Great Britain. I always knew there was something else inside of me as I look quite Italian/Spaniard too. I uploaded my results to Gedmatch for further evaluation and I also had Hungary,Romania and Georgian dna.

Censored
09-04-2018, 06:41 AM
I can confirm that Iranians have had European influences. From both my parents side I have relatives that have green eyes and white skin even with lighter coloured hair. I took an ancestry dna test and 15% of me was Italian with 3% Iberian and 1% Great Britain. I always knew there was something else inside of me as I look quite Italian/Spaniard too. I uploaded my results to Gedmatch for further evaluation and I also had Hungary,Romania and Georgian dna.

Light skin or hair doesn't equal European ancestry. AncestryDNA is not reliable.

What are your gedmatch results.