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View Full Version : CTS4466 (L21>DF13>CTS4466) & Irish II/South



TigerMW
04-30-2013, 02:22 AM
CTS4466 was discovered among DF13+ folks via Geno 2.0 testing several months ago.

So far, CTS4466 has been 100% positive among Irish II/South Irish modal haplotype folks, what I'm now calling 4466-T2.

CTS5714 and CTS3974 also are following along as phylogenetically equivalent, so far.


... A pdf file (CTS4466-CTS5714 Results 28Apr2013.pdf) has been uploaded to the
files section of the R1b-L21 Project site
<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/>. This file will be updated
periodically as new results appear.

The file contains three lists:
1. A list of positive results for each of the 3 CTS SNPs
2. A list of negative results for (some) DF13* men
3. A list of those SNPs below DF13 that have tested negative for one or more of
the CTS SNPs.

I have also listed the seven South Irish STR values for comparison, along with
DSY481 and two markers in the 68-111 range. Furthermore, on the far right, is a
column showing GD from the 4466 modal. (A caveat here for the –C men: Their
relatively large GD is due to 481=18. If they are compared just to a –C modal,
then they are 5, 12, and 8.)

The plus/minus contrast between the top two tables is obvious. What we need are
more tests in-between these tables. Perhaps the most likely `in-between' men are
those in variety z6171314 (old 1511).

We've had another positive for CTS3974. There are now 23 known positives for
CTS4466, 18 for CYS5714, and 8 for CYS3974. In no case have we yet seen a
positive for one of these and negative for another.

Those who are interested are invited to examine this file and report to the
author any errors, corrections, or other recommendations.

Also, if there are other tests in progress for these CTS SNPs, please let the
author know. Especially interesting would be attempts by men who have haplotypes
at the far end of variety 4466, or possibly anyone in variety z6171314.

rms2
04-30-2013, 11:40 AM
If CTS4466+ guys are interested in getting that SNP onto ISOGG's tree, they should try to raise some money for SNP testing the appropriate candidates from other subclades so they can eliminate them. If they want to donate to the R-L21 Plus Project General Fund for that purpose and let me know which clades still need to be tested, I can do the contact work for them and get the ball rolling.

I realize that it is becoming steadily more difficult to get new SNPs onto ISOGG's tree as the list of recognized SNPs grows. There are so many more to be systematically tested and eliminated (or not) now.

Dubhthach
04-30-2013, 02:02 PM
If CTS4466+ guys are interested in getting that SNP onto ISOGG's tree, they should try to raise some money for SNP testing the appropriate candidates from other subclades so they can eliminate them. If they want to donate to the R-L21 Plus Project General Fund for that purpose and let me know which clades still need to be tested, I can do the contact work for them and get the ball rolling.

I realize that it is becoming steadily more difficult to get new SNPs onto ISOGG's tree as the list of recognized SNPs grows. There are so many more to be systematically tested and eliminated (or not) now.

We covered some of this by sponsoring tests for CTS4466 in the Ireland project. That and Miles Drake (L96) ordered Geno 2.0. As far as I know they are basically just awaiting L144 and L96 results before they can submit to ISOGG.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
04-30-2013, 02:09 PM
Actually it's just L96 result that's current been awaited on:

17624 Megonnigil DF49
130361 Elliott L513
176268 Gontaut L96 (outstanding)
83115 Whelan L144
N38274 Gaston Z255
N16295 Ramsey Z253
16274 Anderson L226+
N57121 Compton DF21
N27653 Cupit DF21
N84982 Turner L371
176148 Duffy DF41
33141 Irwin L555
107327 Iles L1335

Several of above are from Geno 2.0 results.

rms2
04-30-2013, 06:36 PM
Actually it's just L96 result that's current been awaited on:

17624 Megonnigil DF49
130361 Elliott L513
176268 Gontaut L96 (outstanding)
83115 Whelan L144
N38274 Gaston Z255
N16295 Ramsey Z253
16274 Anderson L226+
N57121 Compton DF21
N27653 Cupit DF21
N84982 Turner L371
176148 Duffy DF41
33141 Irwin L555
107327 Iles L1335

Several of above are from Geno 2.0 results.

That's good to hear. It should be on ISOGG's tree soon then.

TigerMW
05-19-2013, 03:05 PM
More SNPs for CTS4466 individuals to consider:


Kit 251695 (Cremeans) is CTS4466+ Z454.2+ F2517.2+ and was added to the summary table at:
http://daver.info/geno/results/R-CTS4466.pdf

CTS5714 was a no-call for this kit.

Z454 was originally found in Hg J, and this is the first instance found in Hg R. Other Geno 2.0 testers in the R-CTS4466 group were Z454-. This SNP could be private, or might have a broader range, further testing would be required to determine the scope of the SNP.

F2517 was originally found in Hg O and this is the first instance found in Hg R. What I find interesting, among all of the L21+ Geno 2.0 testers, only six had no-calls for this SNP, and five of the six are in the R-CTS4466 cluster. This suggests to me that all are in fact actually F2517.2+, and F2517 may be approximately equivalent to CTS4466.

data.y/115485-Finbar O'Mahoney.csv:115485-F2517 -
data.y/148516-Art Drennan.csv:148516-F2517 -
data.y/195090-Joel Fabin.csv:195090-F2517 -
data.y/19920-Donald Stephens.csv:19920-F2517 -
data.y/B2560-Dennis Murphy.csv:B2560-F2517 -
data.y/N59178-Joe Carroll.csv:N59178-F2517 -
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/message/15864

Dubhthach
05-19-2013, 05:07 PM
Ó CRUIMÍN—I—O Crumyne, Crimmeen, Cremeen, Cremin, Cremen, Crimmins; 'descendant of Cruimín' (diminutive of crom, bent); the name of a well-known family in Cork, Kerry and Limerick; of West Cork origin, and said to be a branch of the MacCarthys.


Mac CÁRTHAIGH—IV—M'Carhig, M'Carhie, MacCarha, MacCarthy, MacCartie, MacCarty, MacArthy, &c.; 'son of Cárthach' (Old Celtic Caratacos, loving, an ancient Irish personal name). The MacCarthys were the chief family of the Eoghanacht, i.e., the descendants of Eoghan Mor, son of Oilioll Olum, King of Munster in the 3rd century. They took their name from Cárthach, lord of the Eoghanacht, whose tragic death, in 1045, is recorded in the Annals. Cártach was the son of Saerbhreathach (a name still in use in the family, anglicised Justin), who was the grandson of Ceaillachán of Cashel, King of Munster in the Danish period. Prior to the Anglo-Norman invasion, the MacCarthys were Kings of Desmond, or South Munster; but shortly after that event they were driven from the plains of Tipperary into the present counties of Cork and Kerry, where, however, they became very numerous and retained considerable possessions down to the revolution of 1688. They were divided into three great branches, the heads of which were known respectively as MacCarthy More who resided chiefly in Kerry, MacCarthy Reagh, lord of Carbery in West Cork, and MacCarthy of Muskerry; and there were numerous minor branches. In 1565, Donal MacCarthy, the then MacCarthy More, was created Earl of Clancar, and other members of the family were at various periods ennobled as Barons of Valentia, Earls of Clancarthy, Viscounts Muskerry, and Lords Mountcashel.

I had emailed this kitholder when his Geno 2.0 results came in suggesting he submit them to David -- he didn't respond to my email but obviously did. I believe he has a verified lineage back to mid 17th century. His earliest MDKA been a "McCarthy Cremin"

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
06-17-2013, 10:44 AM
I was notified over the weekend that there exists a Spanish kit who has most of the distinct STR values of Irish Type II cluster (he's out on three of them at 67 markers) who has tested CTS4466-. At the moment he's only predicted as M269 so we've sponsored him for a DF13 test through the Ireland project. If he comes back as DF13+ then it will probably be worthwhile to test some of the SNP's that are currently equivalent to CTS4466. Namely CTS5714, CTS3974 and F2517.2, if he was to come back positive for one of those then it would change the phylogentic order.

Kit number 143952 in the Ireland yDNA Project.

-Paul
(DF41+)

TigerMW
06-17-2013, 05:31 PM
I was notified over the weekend that there exists a Spanish kit who has most of the distinct STR values of Irish Type II cluster (he's out on three of them at 67 markers) who has tested CTS4466-. At the moment he's only predicted as M269 so we've sponsored him for a DF13 test through the Ireland project. If he comes back as DF13+ then it will probably be worthwhile to test some of the SNP's that are currently equivalent to CTS4466. Namely CTS5714, CTS3974 and F2517.2, if he was to come back positive for one of those then it would change the phylogentic order.

Kit number 143952 in the Ireland yDNA Project.


That would be an exciting find if he is positive for any of those "almost" CTS4466 SNPs. There would be a reason to suspect a continental origin, if not Iberian. I know that is part of the hypothesis presented within the Irish II/South discussion groups.

TigerMW
07-01-2013, 01:35 PM
I was notified over the weekend that there exists a Spanish kit who has most of the distinct STR values of Irish Type II cluster (he's out on three of them at 67 markers) who has tested CTS4466-. At the moment he's only predicted as M269 so we've sponsored him for a DF13 test through the Ireland project. If he comes back as DF13+ then it will probably be worthwhile to test some of the SNP's that are currently equivalent to CTS4466. Namely CTS5714, CTS3974 and F2517.2, if he was to come back positive for one of those then it would change the phylogentic order.

Kit number 143952 in the Ireland yDNA Project.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I noticed that some of the Irish II/South (probably CTS4466) people are realling focusing on Iberia.
https://www.facebook.com/IberianAncestorsOfSouthIrish

I did find an 11-13 guy who I thought might be L513. He came back L513-. If he fit into a cluster I might have thought more about it but there are other L513- people who have the 11-13 (406s1/617) pattern from other locations so I don't think I can make much of it.

Even though it is expensive, having all four SNPs (CTS4466, CTS5714, CTS3974 and F2517.2) that appear at the same level may some day lead to a breakthrough when and if people are divided up by them.

Dubhthach
07-01-2013, 02:39 PM
I noticed that some of the Irish II/South (probably CTS4466) people are realling focusing on Iberia.
https://www.facebook.com/IberianAncestorsOfSouthIrish

I did find an 11-13 guy who I thought might be L513. He came back L513-. If he fit into a cluster I might have thought more about it but there are other L513- people who have the 11-13 (406s1/617) pattern from other locations so I don't think I can make much of it.

Even though it is expensive, having all four SNPs (CTS4466, CTS5714, CTS3974 and F2517.2) that appear at the same level may some day lead to a breakthrough when and if people are divided up by them.

I'm not sure on why the emphasis on Iberia as oppose to elsewere on the continent.

rossa
07-01-2013, 03:03 PM
I'm not sure on why the emphasis on Iberia as oppose to elsewere on the continent.


Complete with ancient cave painting also, I think Irish people love the whole exoticness of a Spanish link which you can see with the popularity of the Spanish Armamda story.

TigerMW
07-01-2013, 03:08 PM
I'm not sure on why the emphasis on Iberia as oppose to elsewere on the continent.

I'm not sure either. This yahoo group is primarily focused on CTS4466 and South Irish research.

The work being done for the South Irish project can be reused for any base haplotype. It has expanded to "Research when the 4466 SNP occurred in the phylogenetic tree that includes both the Iberian descendants similar to the South Irish base haplotype and those with the South Irish base haplotype, the results of which will also identify the Iberian Ancestors of the South Irish base haplotype". http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-L21_TMRCA_CaseStudies/


That appears to be the consensus. With the controversy, sounds like your group will not be named until there is significant work done.

Who will do this work though? Unless those in this group will do the work, this group may not be named. If others in competing groups do their due diligence, they may find evidence to support their theory and take claim to the history.
Whichever group takes the time and energy to do the work to find evidence to support their claims, no one in the competing realm will be able to name their sub branch with a reasonable chance of being accepted. http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/R-L21_TMRCA_CaseStudies/message/91

I guess that is the hypothesis the project leader has - the South Irish or some part of them, are of Iberian descent - so the idea is to test the hypothesis. I'm not sure naming sub-branches is that a big a deal and I wouldn't pick such a one-way focus. However, I don't want to be critical as the group of people working this are aggressive and making things happen. I don't know what answers they'll come up with, but at least we'll have more data. That's good!

r_r_abril
07-03-2013, 11:24 PM
I was notified over the weekend that there exists a Spanish kit who has most of the distinct STR values of Irish Type II cluster (he's out on three of them at 67 markers) who has tested CTS4466-. At the moment he's only predicted as M269 so we've sponsored him for a DF13 test through the Ireland project. If he comes back as DF13+ then it will probably be worthwhile to test some of the SNP's that are currently equivalent to CTS4466. Namely CTS5714, CTS3974 and F2517.2, if he was to come back positive for one of those then it would change the phylogentic order.

Kit number 143952 in the Ireland yDNA Project.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Hi from Spain!!

I ordered two months ago a Geno 2.0 kit and I got the results 4 weeks ago. I am R-L21. I got the .csv and it reads:

SNP: CTS4466
Allele: A (Adenine)

Does that mean that I am CTS4466+?

MJost
07-03-2013, 11:55 PM
You would need a CT4466 with a C.

Check out Dave's Spreadsheet
http://daver.info/geno/results/R-CTS4466.pdf

MJost

rms2
10-06-2013, 11:35 AM
Stovall, kit 239517, just got a CTS4466+ result. This is of some interest to me, since I have a Stovall line in my family tree on my dad's side and four Family Finder matches with the surname Stovall in their pedigrees. I have confirmed the connection with at least one of them. My Stovall line traces back to the immigrant, Bartholomew Stovall, who was born 24 Aug 1665 in Albury Heath, Surrey, England. He immigrated to Henrico County, Virginia (about 30 minutes drive from where I now live), and died there in 1721. This Stovall also traces his ancestry to Albury in Surrey, but he is claiming to have gotten back another 110 years. I'll have to email him and see if Bartholomew is in his line. We may be relatives.

Anyway, interesting to get an "Irish Type 2" with ancestry in Surrey, England, in the 16th century.

rms2
10-06-2013, 08:28 PM
Stovall, kit 239517, just got a CTS4466+ result. This is of some interest to me, since I have a Stovall line in my family tree on my dad's side and four Family Finder matches with the surname Stovall in their pedigrees. I have confirmed the connection with at least one of them. My Stovall line traces back to the immigrant, Bartholomew Stovall, who was born 24 Aug 1665 in Albury Heath, Surrey, England. He immigrated to Henrico County, Virginia (about 30 minutes drive from where I now live), and died there in 1721. This Stovall also traces his ancestry to Albury in Surrey, but he is claiming to have gotten back another 110 years. I'll have to email him and see if Bartholomew is in his line. We may be relatives.

Anyway, interesting to get an "Irish Type 2" with ancestry in Surrey, England, in the 16th century.

Will wonders ever cease? (Or is it never cease?) Anyway, I heard back from Mr. Stovall, and it turns out he and I are some kind of distant cousins. We are both descended from Bartholomew Stovall at least, and I am checking to see if we share a more recent common Stovall ancestor, John (b. 1713 in Virginia) or Josiah (his son, b. 1749 in Virginia). Those two are in my Stovall line. I would like to find out just what kind of cousins, however removed, we are.