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View Full Version : Are many supposedly pure British getting false Mediterranean islander ?



firemonkey
09-25-2016, 02:09 AM
I get 9-10% with Ancestry,FTDNA and 23andMedata, while my father gets 11% with FTDNA data. It's above noise levels but I know of no Cypriot,Maltese or Sicilian ancestry.

My father gets -

MDLP world 22- 8 89.1% Swedish (derived) + 10.9% Cypriot (derived) @ 1.32
10 85.6% Swedish (derived) + 14.4% Sicilian (derived) @ 1.38

Eurogenes K13- 8 94.7% West_Scottish + 5.3% East_Sicilian @ 1.66
11 94.3% West_Scottish + 5.7% West_Sicilian @ 1.67


Dodecad World 9- 16 95.7% Kent (1000 Genomes) + 4.3% Cypriots (Behar) @ 0.85


puntDNAL K15 - 19 96.8% Scottish + 3.2% Sicilian @ 1.37


Ancient Eurasia K6 - 6 81% Estonian + 19% Cypriot @ 0.99
14 95.4% Ukrainian + 4.6% Cypriot @ 1.12


Eurasia K10 CHG - 19 79.3% Norwegian + 20.7% Sicilian @ 1.63


Eurasia K11 CHG- 16 79.2% Scottish + 20.8% Sicilian @ 2.97
18 80.5% Scottish + 19.5% Maltese @ 3.18


Eurasia K9 ASI- 5 76% Norwegian + 24% Sicilian @ 1.24
19 90.1% English + 9.9% Cypriot @ 1.42



Gedrosia K11- 6 68.1% Norwegian + 31.9% Sicilian @ 5.24



Gedrosia K12- 3 64.2% Norwegian + 35.8% Sicilian @ 5.2


Gedrosia K15- 20 67.8% Norwegian + 32.2% Sicilian @ 4.97

A Norfolk L-M20
09-25-2016, 10:52 AM
I don't like the word "pure", because of course, we are all admixed populations, and are all cousins. The English are known to be heavily admixed, particularly during the Early Medieval. With that point in mind ... you know my genealogy. 100% English on paper, the majority from Norfolk, East Anglia (7 out of 8 grandparents born in that county). 207 direct ancestors named, all in Southern / Eastern England, all apparently English surnames and religious denominations. My results?

I recently posted this about my bizarre "South European" results from FTDNA and to an extent from 23andMe, and DNA.land. It might be relevant. As I've said before, I can't account for anything like that in the paper and family history trail, and I don't really believe that it represents real ancestry within the historical period:

23andMe test before phasing, in spec mode included:

3% Southern European
including
0.5% Iberian.

Then tested my mother who got:

2.2% Broadly Southern European

After phasing with her, my results 23andMe AC spec changed to:

1.8% Broadly Southern European

23andMe Split view suggests (based on phasing with mother alone) that I inherited:

1% Southern European from my father (cannot test, RIP), and
0.9% Southern European from my mother.

In other words, 23andMe is telling me that both of my parents carried low percentages of Southern European.

On DNA.land, my 23andme data analysis report includes;

19% South European
including:
13% Balkans
6.1% South/Central European


Now to add your Gedmatch Heritage admixture calculators:

MDLP World-22:

4 89.4% CEU_V (derived) + 10.6% Sicilian (derived) @ 1.15
13 92.4% CEU_V (derived) + 7.6% Cypriot (derived) @ 1.46

Eurogenes K13:

13 89.9% Southeast_English + 10.1% West_Sicilian @ 2.26

Dodecad World 9:

None.

PuntDNAL K15:

1 95.3% Utahn_White + 4.7% Sardinian @ 0.73
9 87% Irish + 13% Sardinian @ 1.08
10 88.6% English + 11.4% Sardinian @ 1.11
17 83.3% North_German + 16.7% Sardinian @ 1.27
19 86.9% Orcadian + 13.1% Sardinian @ 1.29

Ancient Eurasia K6:

11 69.7% Europe_LNBA + 30.3% Cypriot @ 0.86
15 75.5% Norwegian + 24.5% Cypriot @ 0.89
20 59.3% Sardinian + 40.7% Steppe_EMBA @ 0.96


Eurasia K10 CHG:

None

Eurasia K11 CHG

4 79.8% Scottish + 20.2% Sicilian @ 2.99
7 86% Scottish + 14% Cypriot @ 3.09
8 81% Scottish + 19% Maltese @ 3.12

Eurasia K9 ASI:

None

Gedrosia K11:

None

Gedrosia K12:

2 56.6% Norwegian + 43.4% Sicilian @ 3.6

Gedrosia K15:

14 64% Norwegian + 36% Sicilian @ 4.71

Edit: I forgot to add that a recent FTDNA Family Finder My Origins test gave me:

32% Southern European
Which I cannot account for except to believe that it's a rubbish result.

Stephen1986
09-25-2016, 11:51 AM
On 23andMe I don't have any Southern European whilst my brother has 1.2% Southern European (1.% Broadly Southern European and 0.2% Iberian) as well as 0.1% North African which might be associated in some way.

On DNALand I have 8.2% Southwestern European whilst my brother has 4.2% Ashkenazi/Levantine.

The only test that showed any Mediterranean islands in the oracles for either myself or my brother was the Gedrosia K15 -

Myself

1 50% Norwegian +25% Norwegian +25% Sicilian @ 3.421370

1 Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian + Sicilian @ 3.421370
6 Czech + Norwegian + Norwegian + Sicilian @ 3.878640
11 English + English + Finnish + Sicilian @ 3.972906
19 Finnish + French + Norwegian + Sicilian @ 4.211110

My brother

5 English + Norwegian + Norwegian + Sicilian @ 3.898798
20 English + Hungarian + Norwegian + Sicilian @ 4.290256

firemonkey
09-25-2016, 12:48 PM
I should ideally have put pure British according to their known ancestry but doubt the title bar limitations would have allowed for that .
My known ancestry is 100% British .

My father also gets quite a few other Italian results in the Oracles. If I include Sardinian as you have done then he also gets-


Eurogenes K15- 7 96.3% Irish + 3.7% Sardinian @ 2.52
19 95.1% West_Scottish + 4.9% Sardinian @ 2.75


Dodecad K7B- 5 94.1% German (Dodecad) + 5.9% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 0.53

HarappaWorld-
19 95.7% n-european (xing) + 4.3% sardinian (hgdp) @ 1.38


Eurasia K11 CHG- 10 71.8% Ukrainian + 28.2% Sardinian @ 2.51
15 82.9% Hungarian + 17.1% Sardinian @ 2.92
19 82.8% English + 17.2% Sardinian @ 3.19


To divert away from my original question and onto your Southern European results;he also gets
Southern European in FTDNA but at a lower percentage than you ie 14%.
Given that I get none it would seem to be patently ridiculous. But then there are the quite a few Italian results
in the Oracle, though where an Italian population does or does not become Southern I have no idea.
Is the whole of Italy regarded as Southern European?

I have doubts that the Mediterranean islander in our dna land results " represents real ancestry within the historical period" to quote you.

Nor do I believe do my father's Southern European results.

Whether in either case it represents ancient ancestry beyond the time frame of genealogical records I would not like to hazard an opinion. If my father had got Mediterranean islander and I had not I would have been even more sceptical.
Given that my father got 11% I should have got roughly 5.5% from him which suggests the additional 3.5 to 4.5% or so would have come from my mother.
Given that she was Scottish and Irish according to paper trail (though with one surname the ancestors of which trace back to North England) I am doubtful about there also being a Mediterranean islander connection on her side. Unfortunately she is dead so can't be tested.

It does make question the validity of some of these testing companies results.

A Norfolk L-M20
09-25-2016, 02:10 PM
I should ideally have put pure British according to their known ancestry but doubt the title bar limitations would have allowed for that .
My known ancestry is 100% British .

My father also gets quite a few other Italian results in the Oracles. If I include Sardinian as you have done then he also gets-


Eurogenes K15- 7 96.3% Irish + 3.7% Sardinian @ 2.52
19 95.1% West_Scottish + 4.9% Sardinian @ 2.75


Dodecad K7B- 5 94.1% German (Dodecad) + 5.9% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 0.53

HarappaWorld-
19 95.7% n-european (xing) + 4.3% sardinian (hgdp) @ 1.38


Eurasia K11 CHG- 10 71.8% Ukrainian + 28.2% Sardinian @ 2.51
15 82.9% Hungarian + 17.1% Sardinian @ 2.92
19 82.8% English + 17.2% Sardinian @ 3.19


To divert away from my original question and onto your Southern European results;he also gets
Southern European in FTDNA but at a lower percentage than you ie 14%.
Given that I get none it would seem to be patently ridiculous. But then there are the quite a few Italian results
in the Oracle, though where an Italian population does or does not become Southern I have no idea.
Is the whole of Italy regarded as Southern European?

I have doubts that the Mediterranean islander in our dna land results " represents real ancestry within the historical period" to quote you.

Nor do I believe do my father's Southern European results.

Whether in either case it represents ancient ancestry beyond the time frame of genealogical records I would not like to hazard an opinion. If my father had got Mediterranean islander and I had not I would have been even more sceptical.
Given that my father got 11% I should have got roughly 5.5% from him which suggests the additional 3.5 to 4.5% or so would have come from my mother.
Given that she was Scottish and Irish according to paper trail (though with one surname the ancestors of which trace back to North England) I am doubtful about there also being a Mediterranean islander connection on her side. Unfortunately she is dead so can't be tested.

It does make question the validity of some of these testing companies results.

Absolutely. That 23andMe, FTDNA, WeGene, DNA.land, and the Gedmatch calculators contradict each other so much. That our 23andMe ancestry changes so significantly with phasing. I've lost a lot of faith in autosomal DNA testing for ancestry. It might be easy for someone of recent but unknown mixed ancestry from the migration events to the Americas for example, to accept what they are given as a truth. But not so much for us. I will however defend autosomal testing to a certain degree. 23andMe for example, seem good for identifying some distinct populations. I can for example, state that the 23andMe British & Irish categorisation is good for identifying descent from the old British populations of NW Europe, particularly the Irish and Scottish. It gets confused by the English however. As for FTDNA and it's assertion that I have 32% Southern European ancestry, I am clueless why they should give that conclusion!

firemonkey
09-25-2016, 02:26 PM
I think WeGene is perhaps the biggest joke of all but then to be fair it is not aimed at those of us with European ancestry.

My results there.

23andMe

11818



Ancestry

11819

L1983
09-25-2016, 03:28 PM
I get 1.9% Southern European in 23andme in spec. 0.5% survives in standard and Ancestry dna gave me 3% Iberian. Just assumed it was part of the makeup of the British Isles. I get Sardinian/Mediterranean Islander/South Central European in dna land. Most of my second population oracles are more East.

firemonkey
09-25-2016, 03:33 PM
Just as a matter of interest the other Italian oracle results my father gets.

MDLP world- 13 88.1% German-North + 11.9% Italian-Center @ 1.23
14 88.9% German-North + 11.1% Italian-South @ 1.24


MDLP world 22- 4 84% Swedish (derived) + 16% Italian-Center (derived) @ 1.11
7 84.8% Swedish (derived) + 15.2% Italian-South (derived) @ 1.21


Eurogenes K15- 16 94.1% Irish + 5.9% North_Italian @ 2.71

Eurogenes K13- 4 93.1% West_Scottish + 6.9% Tuscan @ 1.64
5 95.3% West_Scottish + 4.7% Italian_Jewish @ 1.65
18 94.1% West_Scottish + 5.9% Italian_Abruzzo @ 1.7

Dodecad K12 B- 7 89.1% Dutch (Dodecad) + 10.9% North_Italian (HGDP) @ 0.97
8 88.5% Dutch (Dodecad) + 11.5% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.03
13 91.2% Dutch (Dodecad) + 8.8% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 1.12
17 92% Dutch (Dodecad) + 8% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.3
19 90.9% Dutch (Dodecad) + 9.1% O_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.44

Dodecad K 7B- 12 70.7% Norwegian (Dodecad) + 29.3% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 0.63
14 68.9% Swedish (Dodecad) + 31.1% North_Italian (HGDP) @ 0.67
18 77.7% Orkney (1000Genomes) + 22.3% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 0.72


Dodecad world 9- 1 68.9% Norwegian (Dodecad) + 31.1% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 0.74
7 76.1% Norwegian (Dodecad) + 23.9% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 0.84


HarappaWorld- 1 92.2% utahn-white (hapmap) + 7.8% tuscan (1000genomes) @ 0.69
4 90.3% utahn-white (hapmap) + 9.7% italian (hgdp) @ 0.79


Eurasia K6- 11 74.3% Estonian + 25.7% Italian_South @ 1.07

A Norfolk L-M20
09-25-2016, 03:39 PM
I get 1.9% Southern European in 23andme in spec. 0.5% survives in standard and Ancestry dna gave me 3% Iberian. Just assumed it was part of the makeup of the British Isles. I get Sardinian/Mediterranean Islander/South Central European in dna land. Most of my second population oracles are more East.

I think that a percentage of Southern European in 23andMe spec is part of the makeup of the British Isles. a lot of English seem to get it. I just don't know if it's deep ancestral (Neolithic, late prehistoric, Romano-British, etc), or if it simply tells us that Ancestry Composition programs cannot tell us Europeans apart well enough to distinguish.

Morges
09-25-2016, 04:42 PM
Roman heritage in British isles?

firemonkey
09-25-2016, 04:59 PM
@Morges. An interesting possibility.

L1983
09-25-2016, 05:11 PM
I think that a percentage of Southern European in 23andMe spec is part of the makeup of the British Isles. a lot of English seem to get it. I just don't know if it's deep ancestral (Neolithic, late prehistoric, Romano-British, etc), or if it simply tells us that Ancestry Composition programs cannot tell us Europeans apart well enough to distinguish.

Yes agreed:)

vettor
09-25-2016, 05:16 PM
I should ideally have put pure British according to their known ancestry but doubt the title bar limitations would have allowed for that .
My known ancestry is 100% British .

My father also gets quite a few other Italian results in the Oracles. If I include Sardinian as you have done then he also gets-


Eurogenes K15- 7 96.3% Irish + 3.7% Sardinian @ 2.52
19 95.1% West_Scottish + 4.9% Sardinian @ 2.75


Dodecad K7B- 5 94.1% German (Dodecad) + 5.9% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 0.53

HarappaWorld-
19 95.7% n-european (xing) + 4.3% sardinian (hgdp) @ 1.38


Eurasia K11 CHG- 10 71.8% Ukrainian + 28.2% Sardinian @ 2.51
15 82.9% Hungarian + 17.1% Sardinian @ 2.92
19 82.8% English + 17.2% Sardinian @ 3.19


To divert away from my original question and onto your Southern European results;he also gets
Southern European in FTDNA but at a lower percentage than you ie 14%.
Given that I get none it would seem to be patently ridiculous. But then there are the quite a few Italian results
in the Oracle, though where an Italian population does or does not become Southern I have no idea.
Is the whole of Italy regarded as Southern European?

I have doubts that the Mediterranean islander in our dna land results " represents real ancestry within the historical period" to quote you.

Nor do I believe do my father's Southern European results.

Whether in either case it represents ancient ancestry beyond the time frame of genealogical records I would not like to hazard an opinion. If my father had got Mediterranean islander and I had not I would have been even more sceptical.
Given that my father got 11% I should have got roughly 5.5% from him which suggests the additional 3.5 to 4.5% or so would have come from my mother.
Given that she was Scottish and Irish according to paper trail (though with one surname the ancestors of which trace back to North England) I am doubtful about there also being a Mediterranean islander connection on her side. Unfortunately she is dead so can't be tested.

It does make question the validity of some of these testing companies results.

your point on the italian population being southern or not is due to today's national boundaries. This boundary system by all companies is the issue.........example, how can northern-italians who sit higher in latitude than southern french be called southern, while these southern-french who sit lower in the worlds latitude be classified north .

The split should be done differently...........maybe these southern-french and north-italians should be zoned into north-med or ?

we have an issue to with the southern-germans , should they be called central europeans and the north-gemans be classified with scandinavians ? ..........I do not know, but I avoid this north or south european classification

firemonkey
09-25-2016, 08:50 PM
Oracle 4 Italian inc Sardinian and Sicilian


Dodecad world 9


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Norwegian +25% Dutch +25% N_Italian @ 0.449192


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Norwegian + Norwegian + Dutch + N_Italian @ 0.449192
2 German + Norwegian + Norwegian + N_Italian @ 0.485703
3 Polish + Norwegian + North_Italian + Orkney @ 0.587034
4 British + British_Isles + North_Italian + Lithuanians @ 0.621457
5 Norwegian + Norwegian + N_Italian + Kent @ 0.633078
6 Swedish + Norwegian + Dutch + N_Italian @ 0.635324
7 Norwegian + Norwegian + N_Italian + CEU30 @ 0.638288
9 Norwegian + Norwegian + Mixed_Germanic + N_Italian @ 0.650836
10 British_Isles + North_Italian + Lithuanians + Kent @ 0.651870
11 British + North_Italian + Lithuanians + Kent @ 0.657495
12 German + Swedish + Norwegian + N_Italian @ 0.659373
15 Swedish + Norwegian + Mixed_Germanic + N_Italian @ 0.674368
16 Irish + Polish + Norwegian + North_Italian @ 0.676438
17 Polish + Norwegian + North_Italian + Orcadian @ 0.680570
19 British + Norwegian + Norwegian + N_Italian @ 0.685781
20 Norwegian + Norwegian + N_Italian + Cornwall @ 0.685


Eurasia K11 CHG

1 50% Estonian +25% Greek +25% Sardinian @ 2.019148


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Estonian + Greek + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 1.684082
3 Albanian + Estonian + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 1.884263
5 Albanian + Estonian + Estonian + Sardinian @ 1.922359
6 Greek + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 1.930207
7 Estonian + Scottish + Spanish + Tuscan @ 1.992121
8 Estonian + Estonian + Greek + Sardinian @ 2.019148
10 Czech + Scottish + Spanish + Spanish @ 2.038649
14 Bulgarian + Estonian + Norwegian + Sardinian @ 2.086024
15 Lithuanian + Scottish + Spanish + Tuscan @ 2.116220
16 Bulgarian + Lithuanian + Russian + Sardinian @ 2.120221
18 Estonian + Estonian + Sardinian + Tuscan @ 2.149248
20 Albanian + Lithuanian + Russian + Sardinian @ 2.173162


Eurasia K14

Using 4 populations approximation:
3 French_South + Nordic_LN2 + Scottish + Tuscan @ 2.789026
4 Corded_Ware_BA2 + Hungarian_BA7 + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 2.805658
6 French_South + Nordic_LN2 + Norwegian + Tuscan @ 2.846760
7 Czech + French_South + Nordic_LN2 + Tuscan @ 2.877240
8 Basque + Nordic_LN2 + Norwegian + Tuscan @ 2.912319
11 French_South + Nordic_LN2 + Tuscan + Ukrainian @ 2.977244
13 Basque + Czech + Nordic_LN2 + Tuscan @ 2.981013
14 French_South + Hungarian + Nordic_LN2 + Tuscan @ 2.984975
15 English + French_South + Nordic_LN2 + Tuscan @ 2.986486
19 Basque + Nordic_LN2 + Tuscan + Ukrainian @ 3.070072
20 Basque + Nordic_LN2 + Scottish + Tuscan @ 3.074322

Gedrosia K12

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 BA_Sintashta + Greek + Sardinian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 3.920627
2 Corded_Ware_LN + Greek + Sardinian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 3.920627
3 BA_Sintashta + Iranian + Norwegian + Sardinian @ 4.154214
4 Corded_Ware_LN + Iranian + Norwegian + Sardinian @ 4.154214
5 Armenian + BA_Sintashta + Norwegian + Sardinian @ 4.502630
6 Armenian + Corded_Ware_LN + Norwegian + Sardinian @ 4.502630
7 BA_Sintashta + Sardinian + Sicilian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 4.723823
8 Corded_Ware_LN + Sardinian + Sicilian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 4.723823
9 BA_Sintashta + Kurds_E + Norwegian + Sardinian @ 4.896856
10 Corded_Ware_LN + Kurds_E + Norwegian + Sardinian @ 4.896856
11 BA_Sintashta + Kurds_N + Norwegian + Sardinian @ 5.089622
12 Corded_Ware_LN + Kurds_N + Norwegian + Sardinian @ 5.089622
14 BA_Sintashta + Norwegian + Sardinian + Turks_Kayseri @ 5.236030
15 Corded_Ware_LN + Norwegian + Sardinian + Turks_Kayseri @ 5.236030
16 Assyrian + BA_Sintashta + Norwegian + Sardinian @ 5.296517
17 Assyrian + Corded_Ware_LN + Norwegian + Sardinian @ 5.296517
19 BA_Sintashta + Kurds_F + Norwegian + Sardinian @ 5.459128
20 Corded_Ware_LN + Kurds_F + Norwegian + Sardinian @ 5.459128


Gedrosia K11

Using 4 populations approximation:
5 Abkhasian + Loschbour + Russian + Sardinian @ 3.857311
13 Balkar + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 4.101393
15 Balkar + Estonian + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 4.137230



Eurasia K6

Using 4 populations approximation:
2 Italian_South + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Russian @ 0.301998
5 Europe_LNBA + Finnish + Italian_South + Lithuanian @ 0.505889
9 Europe_LNBA + Italian_South + Lithuanian + Russian @ 0.574598
15 Finnish + Icelandic + Italian_South + Lithuanian @ 0.617871



Near east Neolithic K13

1 Czech + Europe_LNBA + Italian_South + Lithuanian @ 2.703659

ThirdTerm
09-25-2016, 10:43 PM
In Roman Britain, there were immigrants from the southern Mediterranean and Roman London especially had a close connection with Mediterranean migrants. In the southern burial area of Roman London, five individuals were identified as Mediterraneans by the following study by Redfern et al. (2016) and the team also identified people with African and Asian ancestry in Roman London. I assume that Roman London was a multicultural city, where a vibrant Mediterranean community existed in the southern suburb.



This study investigated the ancestry, childhood residency and diet of 22 individuals buried at an A.D. 2nd and 4th century cemetery at Lant Street, in the southern burial area of Roman London. The possible presence of migrants was investigated using macromorphoscopics to assess ancestry, carbon and nitrogen isotopes to study diet, and oxygen isotopes to examine migration. Diets were found to be primarily C3-based with limited input of aquatic resources, in contrast to some other populations in Roman Britain and proximity to the River Thames. The skeletal morphology showed the likely African ancestry of four individuals, and Asian ancestry of two individuals, with oxygen isotopes indicating a circum-Mediterranean origin for five individuals. Our data suggests that the population of the southern suburb had an ongoing connection with immigrants, especially those from the southern Mediterranean.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/03054403/74