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apollo
09-27-2016, 10:09 PM
Hey All,

I recently received my ancestry results back from 23andMe and it stated that I am around 25% Italian, 13.2% Southern European and 8.9% Middle Eastern.

I submitted my results to DNA.Land and it came back with the following: Ashkenazi/Levantine 35% (Mediterranean Islander 29% and Ashkenazi 5.8%) and 9.5% Sardinian.

What's surprising is the Ashkenazi and Middle Eastern roots, bearing in mind that my last name is Italian/Sicilian/Maltese.

Do I happen to have Jewish ancestry?

Hope someone can shed more light to my ancestry.

Aquilifer
09-28-2016, 01:17 AM
No, it's extremely unlikely you have Ashkenazi/Jewish roots, but your Middle Eastern numbers come from ancient migrations from 10,000-3,000 years ago. Ashkenazi Jews and Sicilians are genetically similar only because they have similar proportions of European and Near Eastern admixture, but they don't share what's called IBDs (identity by descent). What that basically means is that each group evolved separately over different time periods.

Bear in mind these calculators aren't 100% accurate in the sense of pinpointing exact ancestry for everyone, it's just the algorithms used are trying to place your ancestry based on the categories provided. Like for example your 23andme results list 8.9% Middle Eastern, but it doesn't mean you have a great-great-grandfather who came directly from the Middle East (I know that would be 6.25% but I rounded up for the sake of the example).

Are you fully Maltese or is it mixed with Italian and Sicilian?

apollo
09-28-2016, 07:09 AM
Thank you for your reply. Does that explain how a lot of Southern Europeans and Mediterranean folk physically similar with Middle Eastern/Jewish individuals?

In regards to your question, I am likely to mixed as I believe I have a great grandmother who bears an Italian last name.

My current last name is commonly Maltese, however, originated and has roots in Sicily.

Aquilifer
09-28-2016, 01:18 PM
Thank you for your reply. Does that explain how a lot of Southern Europeans and Mediterranean folk physically similar with Middle Eastern/Jewish individuals?

In regards to your question, I am likely to mixed as I believe I have a great grandmother who bears an Italian last name.

My current last name is commonly Maltese, however, originated and has roots in Sicily.

Perhaps, but IMO the physical overlap between southern Europe and the Middle East is largely exaggerated, especially on anthroforums for a host of reasons.

Larth
09-28-2016, 01:38 PM
It's the first time I see a Maltese who identifies himself as south Italian. Maltese aren't exactly the same of Sicilians/southern Italians.



Perhaps, but IMO the physical overlap between southern Europe and the Middle East is largely exaggerated, especially on anthroforums for a host of reasons.

Indeed.

Morges
09-28-2016, 02:00 PM
My current last name is commonly Maltese, however, originated and has roots in Sicily.
Haplogroup?

Bonacci
09-28-2016, 03:55 PM
It's the first time I see a Maltese who identifies himself as south Italian. Maltese aren't exactly the same of Sicilians/southern Italians.




Indeed.

From what've heard Maltese are technically Sicilians that moved there after they expelled the Moors from Malta. Everything else influence they have (except the British) is irrelevant.

Morges
09-28-2016, 05:35 PM
From what've heard Maltese are technically Sicilians that moved there after they expelled the Moors from Malta. Everything else influence they have (except the British) is irrelevant.

If they were only Sicilians they would spoke Sicilian but they speak Maltese that it's not a Romance language like Sicilian but a mix of Semitic (Tunisian Arabic) and Romance (Sicilian group influenced). With the Normans and the creation of the Kingdom of Sicily, Malta was included in our sphere of influence until the Napoleonic conquest and in 1816 while Sicily was united with Naples, Malta became a British protectorate.

Bonacci
09-28-2016, 05:59 PM
If they were only Sicilians they would spoke Sicilian but they speak Maltese that it's not a Romance language like Sicilian but a mix of Semitic (Tunisian Arabic) and Romance (Sicilian group influenced). With the Normans and the creation of the Kingdom of Sicily, Malta was included in our sphere of influence until the Napoleonic conquest and in 1816 while Sicily was united with Naples, Malta became a British protectorate.

Those Sicilians who migrated to Malta spoke Siculo-Arabic, since they just migrated after the Moorish conquest. Sicilians received Norman, Spanish influence since then still Sicilian language even today has some Arabic influence.

vettor
09-28-2016, 06:00 PM
If they were only Sicilians they would spoke Sicilian but they speak Maltese that it's not a Romance language like Sicilian but a mix of Semitic (Tunisian Arabic) and Romance (Sicilian group influenced). With the Normans and the creation of the Kingdom of Sicily, Malta was included in our sphere of influence until the Napoleonic conquest and in 1816 while Sicily was united with Naples, Malta became a British protectorate.

Does Malta speak sicilian ?

even if we look at the simple days of the week , below..........can a maltese tell us if they use sicilian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_days_of_the_week

Larth
09-28-2016, 06:31 PM
Does Malta speak sicilian ?

No, of course not.

Aquilifer
09-28-2016, 06:31 PM
From what've heard Maltese are technically Sicilians that moved there after they expelled the Moors from Malta. Everything else influence they have (except the British) is irrelevant.

Malta already had an indigenous (and Christian) population at the time of Roger I's landing and eventual taking of Malta in 1091. There probably were migrations between Sicily and Malta both before and after the Moorish occupation, and over time the Siculo-Arabic language morphed into Maltese due to influence from Sicilian proper.

Bonacci
09-28-2016, 06:46 PM
Malta already had an indigenous (and Christian) population at the time of Roger I's landing and eventual taking of Malta in 1091. There probably were migrations between Sicily and Malta both before and after the Moorish occupation, and over time the Siculo-Arabic language morphed into Maltese due to influence from Sicilian proper.

I do consider "Siculo-Arabic" the ancestral language for both Sicilian Italian and Maltese, but Maltese due to it's isolation for a long time remained the Arabic elements while the Sicilian language got "watered down" with Italian, Greek, Iberian loanwords. Today most Maltese speak British as first language, so Maltese proper likely won't be existent for any longer period of time.

Larth
09-28-2016, 06:55 PM
I do consider "Siculo-Arabic" the ancestral language for both Sicilian Italian and Maltese, but Maltese due to it's isolation for a long time remained the Arabic elements while the Sicilian language got "watered down" with Italian, Greek, Iberian loanwords. Today most Maltese speak British as first language, so Maltese proper likely won't be existent for any longer period of time.

Sicilian is a Romance language and has nothing to do with the Arabic language spoken in Sicily during the Muslim rule. Not even all Sicilians spoke the invaders' language. The only Arabic influences are loanwords. Yours is a personal opinion not supported by linguistics.

Morges
09-28-2016, 07:10 PM
The Arabic influence in modern Sicily is around 3-5% of loanwoards but in grammatical level there is no influence in the language.

ps: the ancestral language of Sicily were the Siculo/Elimo who was close to Latin and later the Greek and of course the Latin proper.

Morges
09-28-2016, 07:13 PM
Malta already had an indigenous (and Christian) population at the time of Roger I's landing and eventual taking of Malta in 1091. There probably were migrations between Sicily and Malta both before and after the Moorish occupation, and over time the Siculo-Arabic language morphed into Maltese due to influence from Sicilian proper.

Yes true, without the Sicilian influence the Maltese language would still be entirely Arabic. Pantelleria instead had more influences from Sicily and the Arabic language is extinct and transformed into a Romance one.

Bonacci
09-28-2016, 09:04 PM
Maltese is technically a pidgin which has a lot to do with tradings between the Romance and the Arabic world. Still i'd consider Maltese as Italians with a language shift than a distict group as genetically, culturally they seem not different from "Southern Italians". The only drastic i think is the English influence on them, consider the majority of them speaks English better than Maltese. The youth doesn't even use Maltese language, so it could be nonexistent in the future. -_-

Morges
09-28-2016, 10:17 PM
Maltese it's not a pidgin but a Semitic language with strong input from Romance languages (especially Sicilian group and Italian). For the rest I agree, Malta is an historically stronghold of Sicily since Roman times or even in the occupations of Siracusa by Dionisio of the archipelago.

Principe
09-28-2016, 11:10 PM
No, it's extremely unlikely you have Ashkenazi/Jewish roots, but your Middle Eastern numbers come from ancient migrations from 10,000-3,000 years ago. Ashkenazi Jews and Sicilians are genetically similar only because they have similar proportions of European and Near Eastern admixture, but they don't share what's called IBDs (identity by descent). What that basically means is that each group evolved separately over different time periods.

Bear in mind these calculators aren't 100% accurate in the sense of pinpointing exact ancestry for everyone, it's just the algorithms used are trying to place your ancestry based on the categories provided. Like for example your 23andme results list 8.9% Middle Eastern, but it doesn't mean you have a great-great-grandfather who came directly from the Middle East (I know that would be 6.25% but I rounded up for the sake of the example).

Are you fully Maltese or is it mixed with Italian and Sicilian?

Erlembaldo, how do check what is IBD and IBS? Let's say on Gedmatch, would it mean you triangulate?

Pegasusphm1
09-29-2016, 01:42 AM
Hey All,

I recently received my ancestry results back from 23andMe and it stated that I am around 25% Italian, 13.2% Southern European and 8.9% Middle Eastern.

I submitted my results to DNA.Land and it came back with the following: Ashkenazi/Levantine 35% (Mediterranean Islander 29% and Ashkenazi 5.8%) and 9.5% Sardinian.

What's surprising is the Ashkenazi and Middle Eastern roots, bearing in mind that my last name is Italian/Sicilian/Maltese.

Do I happen to have Jewish ancestry?

Hope someone can shed more light to my ancestry.

This looks pretty normal admixture for the Mediterranean... :ranger: You have various periods what could contribute to your Dna Neolithic, Bronze Age, Phoenician, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Crusades, various Italian Republics, Ottoman empire, Spanish. :fencing:etc. Mediterranean was the commerce route and used for colonization. Same good harbor areas had been recolonized many many times throughout history. Your DNA admixture is a living history of this periods, kinda exciting I think.

You should test your Y-DNA, and mtDNA, I would recommend Familytreedna. :noidea::noidea: These tests will provide your direct paternal and maternal lines. Identify your haplogroups, and from their you can do supplemental tests if your interested in finding out about the specific subclade (branch).

I had very similar results with my test and dna I inherited my Italian grandfather. So I'm thinking the same thing - I'm what:confused:? What the is this middle-east Asia minor stuff? So I transferred my test for free to GEDMATCH. It was showing Tuscany, Northern Italy, Levant, Trabzone, Crete, Smyrna, Spain :frusty:etc.

So I tested my Y-DNA, it came back J-M267 (Prophet Mohammad - Cohanim priesthood) What:jaw:? Of course that left me with more questions so I did a package offer to test the SNP's. Found out I'm J1-PF4872. :beerchug:

Have fun! Good luck on your discoveries.

Principe
09-29-2016, 08:50 PM
This looks pretty normal admixture for the Mediterranean... :ranger: You have various periods what could contribute to your Dna Neolithic, Bronze Age, Phoenician, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Crusades, various Italian Republics, Ottoman empire, Spanish. :fencing:etc. Mediterranean was the commerce route and used for colonization. Same good harbor areas had been recolonized many many times throughout history. Your DNA admixture is a living history of this periods, kinda exciting I think.

You should test your Y-DNA, and mtDNA, I would recommend Familytreedna. :noidea::noidea: These tests will provide your direct paternal and maternal lines. Identify your haplogroups, and from their you can do supplemental tests if your interested in finding out about the specific subclade (branch).

I had very similar results with my test and dna I inherited my Italian grandfather. So I'm thinking the same thing - I'm what:confused:? What the is this middle-east Asia minor stuff? So I transferred my test for free to GEDMATCH. It was showing Tuscany, Northern Italy, Levant, Trabzone, Crete, Smyrna, Spain :frusty:etc.

So I tested my Y-DNA, it came back J-M267 (Prophet Mohammad - Cohanim priesthood) What:jaw:? Of course that left me with more questions so I did a package offer to test the SNP's. Found out I'm J1-PF4872. :beerchug:

Have fun! Good luck on your discoveries.

Pegasusphm1, what part of Italy is your Grandfather from and nice analogy, I similarly had a similar experience to you, so I ordered first a package then eventually got BigY and transferred my results to Yfull.

Pegasusphm1
09-30-2016, 05:25 AM
My grandfather was from Palese, Bari.

My siblings are now actively involved with DNA testing, I spent the last two days transferring their Ancestry.com tests to familytreedna and gedmatch. Have distant cousins who are interested and most likely be testing.

I'm going to test 23andMe next. I believe I have located cousins who immigrated to South America at the time my great grandfather brought my family to New York. Pretty sure its them, Same surnames, same first names, their home 10 minute drive between in Bari from mine family. Then I'm doing the BigY.

Principe
09-30-2016, 07:23 PM
My grandfather was from Palese, Bari.

My siblings are now actively involved with DNA testing, I spent the last two days transferring their Ancestry.com tests to familytreedna and gedmatch. Have distant cousins who are interested and most likely be testing.

I'm going to test 23andMe next. I believe I have located cousins who immigrated to South America at the time my great grandfather brought my family to New York. Pretty sure its them, Same surnames, same first names, their home 10 minute drive between in Bari from mine family. Then I'm doing the BigY.

Very possible a lot of Southern Italians immigrated to South America, I have family in South America, Big Y is good, Pegasusphm1 maybe it is better to wait until November-December as they always do specials around that time.

Agamemnon
09-30-2016, 10:32 PM
Maltese is technically a pidgin which has a lot to do with tradings between the Romance and the Arabic world. Still i'd consider Maltese as Italians with a language shift than a distict group as genetically, culturally they seem not different from "Southern Italians". The only drastic i think is the English influence on them, consider the majority of them speaks English better than Maltese. The youth doesn't even use Maltese language, so it could be nonexistent in the future. -_-

Maltese is not a pidgin.

Pegasusphm1
10-02-2016, 03:19 AM
Very possible a lot of Southern Italians immigrated to South America, I have family in South America, Big Y is good, Pegasusphm1 maybe it is better to wait until November-December as they always do specials around that time.

Good advice. Kits for holiday Gifts for the family also. Just completed transferring three admixture tests with GEDCOM files to FTDNA and GEDMATCH. Didn't mind paying unlock fees at FTDNA, no waiting they processed the kits immediately. Plan to make a few donations for various projects.