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View Full Version : How Did U152 Get to England & Scotland?



Scarlet Ibis
05-04-2013, 07:16 PM
This is a bit of an old question, and perhaps even a simplistic one, but does anyone have any idea? I believe David Faux touched on this issue in a few of his papers a few years ago, but in the field of genetics, quite a lot changes in just a matter of 2 years.

Jean M
05-04-2013, 07:44 PM
I assume it mainly arrived with La Tene movements, and then further trickles with the Romans, Normans, and general Medieval traffic inwards from the U152 areas on the continent. England was ruled jointly with a large chunk of France for quite a while in the Middle Ages. Scotland had close ties with France a bit later on.

Scarlet Ibis
05-04-2013, 11:16 PM
Thanks, Jean. I've been wondering for a while about whether or not there could be an origin from the Roman Empire, but if there is, it's almost certainly only a partial explanation at best.

R.Rocca
05-07-2013, 11:29 AM
While the La Tene Celts seem to have brought a specific subclade of U152 to Britain called L20, there is reason to suspect that L2(xL20) arrived during the Early Bronze Age. The answer is more difficult to answer for subclades Z36 and Z56, although the latter may be more common south of the Alps and may very well signal some of the Roman influx.

Jean M
05-07-2013, 12:06 PM
I defer to your greater knowledge of U152 Richard. It is interesting that you are making headway with subclades. What is the reasoning on L2(xL20)? Is it found in southern Ireland?

R.Rocca
05-07-2013, 12:50 PM
I suspect it was the main U152 mover during the late Bell Beaker "reflux" movements (along with other flavors of R1b). I'll put something together and post it soon.

Claxon
05-07-2013, 02:41 PM
I suspect it was the main U152 mover during the late Bell Beaker "reflux" movements (along with other flavors of R1b). I'll put something together and post it soon.

That should be very interesting. I note in the earlier post you mention that La Tene Celts, perhaps Britons, would be L20. ...perhaps leaving me somewhere else. It will be nice to have something more definitive for the rest of us.

R.Rocca
05-07-2013, 02:44 PM
That should be very interesting. I note in the earlier post you mention that La Tene Celts, perhaps Britons, would be L20. ...perhaps leaving me somewhere else. It will be nice to have something more definitive for the rest of us.

I don't think it rules anyone out however. It should just be taken as a general tend as data is still too low and ancient DNA from the areas of La Tene non-existent.

Solothurn
05-10-2013, 09:29 AM
I watched a TV program recently, it was an update on a 'Roman' female skeleton of high status.

Lead isotopes of this 25 year old lady recently revealed matched other skeletons found in Rome and not British isotopes. Now if this person grew up in Rome and moved to Londinium, did her father and possible brothers also come?

BBC article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/319833.stm

Article Update, UK only I think :(
Images
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=spitalfields+roman+lady&nfpr=1&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=2LmMUen_I8Wc0AWrp4CwDw&ved=0CEQQsAQ&biw=1066&bih=866

Claxon
05-10-2013, 03:37 PM
thanks for this link Brian. Astonishing. A complete skeleton with all her teeth. The stone sarcophagus and elaborate lead coffin are astonishing. I can't help but wonder, who this obviously important person could be. 2000 years old, and the laurel leaves inside are still visible.
no limericks today :-)

Rc

MJost
05-10-2013, 04:38 PM
A two ton lead coffin.. wow

MJost

Solothurn
05-10-2013, 05:34 PM
Very high status!

It mentions DNA testing, but don't know if any got tested!

Gray Fox
09-07-2013, 11:27 AM
Hi guys,

I've recently begun investigating other y-lines in my family tree. I have discovered through the work of a "cousin", that my maternal grandfather is U152 of some sort. The current haplo seems to be U152*. My grandfathers y-line goes back to Lancashire, England.. Confirmed by a match with a fellow Bradshaw who remained there and matches closely via str's and is also most importantly, U152 himself.

I'm wondering if any of the U152 guru's.. (Cough, cough.. Rich Rocca) would mind looking at their str's and letting me know which sub clade is most likely?

Here is a link to the Bradshaw dna results page.. http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/bradshaw/results

Thanks!

Alessio B. Bedini
09-07-2013, 07:50 PM
While the La Tene Celts seem to have brought a specific subclade of U152 to Britain called L20, there is reason to suspect that L2(xL20) arrived during the Early Bronze Age. The answer is more difficult to answer for subclades Z36 and Z56, although the latter may be more common south of the Alps and may very well signal some of the Roman influx.

I agree with this theory.
They arrived at different times.

R.Rocca
09-08-2013, 12:49 AM
Hi guys,

I've recently begun investigating other y-lines in my family tree. I have discovered through the work of a "cousin", that my maternal grandfather is U152 of some sort. The current haplo seems to be U152*. My grandfathers y-line goes back to Lancashire, England.. Confirmed by a match with a fellow Bradshaw who remained there and matches closely via str's and is also most importantly, U152 himself.

I'm wondering if any of the U152 guru's.. (Cough, cough.. Rich Rocca) would mind looking at their str's and letting me know which sub clade is most likely?

Here is a link to the Bradshaw dna results page.. http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/bradshaw/results

Thanks!

That's great Sam. Based on his DYS492=14 value, it is an almost guarantee that he is U152+ Z56+.

Gray Fox
09-08-2013, 09:56 AM
Thanks, Rich. Interesting sub clade.. looks like it's pretty much everywhere! I am tempted to think my Grandfathers y-line may have been the result of the Roman military presence in Lancashire.

R.Rocca
09-08-2013, 12:43 PM
Thanks, Rich. Interesting sub clade.. looks like it's pretty much everywhere! I am tempted to think my Grandfathers y-line may have been the result of the Roman military presence in Lancashire.

Z56 made up 7.1% of the 1000 Genomes samples from Tuscany, so it is more common there than U152 is in many places of Britain, so I think a Roman origin is a possibility.

alan
09-08-2013, 07:20 PM
I know this has been touched on before on the web but could the Romans be responsible for a reasonably significant amount of U152 outside Italy? Its hard to imagine a country so rich in this clade would not have spread a fair bit of this during the conquests of places like Gaul and Britain.

Alessio B. Bedini
09-08-2013, 08:56 PM
U152 is very old, long before the Romans.
This haplotype was not born in Italy and 3000 years ago probably was widespread throughout Europe including England.
I don't believe even that the Romans have widespread z56: its spread is too wide. Maybe Z144 but even this idea should be taken cum grano salis

R.Rocca
09-08-2013, 10:53 PM
I know this has been touched on before on the web but could the Romans be responsible for a reasonably significant amount of U152 outside Italy? Its hard to imagine a country so rich in this clade would not have spread a fair bit of this during the conquests of places like Gaul and Britain.

As you know, Alistair Moffat came up with a claim that a certain amount of British men can trace their ancestry to Romans via their Y-DNA. While some of it is rubbish, he used something along the lines of 1/4 of U152 in Britain was brought during the Roman Empire. I don't know if he went into specifics, but I think he ruled out subclade L2 because it makes up a larger percentage of U152 outside of Italy than inside of it. Like I said about Z56 above - it is "possible" (notice I didn't say it's a guarantee) that the ancestors of a modern day Z56+ Briton is of Roman ancestry. Considering it makes up 7.1% of Tuscans, and nowhere near that in Britain (<1%???), it is not a stretch by any means.

Kwheaton
09-13-2013, 01:38 AM
Somewhat of an obtuse answer to your original question but I think this map is pretty cool.
http://mapsontheweb.tumblr.com/image/59384589478

WarriorBadger
09-14-2013, 09:48 AM
Fascinating thread.

Last year I tested on 23andme - found the results really compelling, and have been dabbling in Eurogenes with the resultant dataset etc.

However, essentially still a complete novice. My paternal haplogroup is R1b1b2a1a2d - and I'm Scottish. With respect information on any specific subclades, could someone tell me how I might go about surmising that from the data that I have - is this even possible?

Interested in pinpointing/surmising whether this might be LeTene etc.

Many thanks.

Scarlet Ibis
09-16-2013, 04:21 AM
Fascinating thread.

Last year I tested on 23andme - found the results really compelling, and have been dabbling in Eurogenes with the resultant dataset etc.

However, essentially still a complete novice. My paternal haplogroup is R1b1b2a1a2d - and I'm Scottish. With respect information on any specific subclades, could someone tell me how I might go about surmising that from the data that I have - is this even possible?

Interested in pinpointing/surmising whether this might be LeTene etc.

Many thanks.


Hi,

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think 23andme tests for any SNPs downstream from L2. You would have to turn somewhere else to dig further into your Y-dna haplogroup, like FamilyTreeDNA, Geno 2.0, Ancestry.com, etc.

My suggestion is to get in touch with the U152 community (it sounds weird that a community should arise around this stuff, but it has) on here, on the 23andme message board, etc., and ultimately to get on board with the U152 project on FTDNA (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/). I know that shelling out more cash, especially after paying for 23andme, might seem daunting, but considering the fact that you're Scottish (actually from Scotland), I think it's probable that at least one person would be willing to pay for, or contribute funds to further testing for you, if you're interested.

Just as an aside, I rather like this chart Mikewww put together. Perhaps it could be useful for you, too, in aiding your research, and in considering what you'd be testing further for. *a note to accompany the graphic: Richard Rocca has replaced u152.org with r1b.org.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-P312_Descendency_Tree.jpg

WarriorBadger
09-18-2013, 11:20 AM
Fantastic, many thanks indeed for this - extremely helpful. I'll certainly pursue as pragmatic a course as possible, very interested in digging a bit deeper. Also uploaded the 23andme data to GEDmatch etc.

Thank you again Scarlet Ibis.

Kwheaton
09-19-2013, 03:40 AM
Scarlet,
They actually do offer some downstream SNPs from L2. They are available ala carte. I suggest working with the R1b U152 Admins like Rich Rocca who is active on these boards. I know Z49, L196 and others are tested.

Looks like He is not L2 however. Again I suggest contacting Admins.
Kelly

Scarlet Ibis
09-19-2013, 04:01 AM
Scarlet,
They actually do offer some downstream SNPs from L2. They are available ala carte. I suggest working with the R1b U152 Admins like Rich Rocca who is active on these boards. I know Z49, L196 and others are tested.

Looks like He is not L2 however. Again I suggest contacting Admins.
Kelly

Hi Kelly,

As far as I know, 23andme doesn't do any ŕ la carte SNP testing at all. If he wants to dig further into his Y-dna haplogroup, he'll have to venture outside of 23andme, and go to another company that offers more specialized testing, like FTDNA, Geno 2.0, etc.

But once he does (if he does), yes, I definitely agree it would be best for him to contact the U152 project admins on FTDNA to get the best answers.

Kwheaton
09-29-2013, 08:16 PM
Hi Kelly,

As far as I know, 23andme doesn't do any ŕ la carte SNP testing at all. If he wants to dig further into his Y-dna haplogroup, he'll have to venture outside of 23andme, and go to another company that offers more specialized testing, like FTDNA, Geno 2.0, etc.

But once he does (if he does), yes, I definitely agree it would be best for him to contact the U152 project admins on FTDNA to get the best answers.

Scarlet,

You are indeed correct. Missed the boat that he was 23andme. He still might want to contact the admins as they could probably suggest the appropriate SNPs. Still waiting to see which SNPs Chromo2 will include....

Solothurn
10-23-2013, 04:11 PM
Birdoswald has the best preserved defences of any of the 16 major forts which supported Hadrian's frontier system. Known to the Romans as 'Banna', from the early 3rd century its garrison was a thousand-strong infantry unit originating in Dacia (modern Romania)

http://www.roman-britain.org/places/banna.htm

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/birdoswald-s-romans-were-actually-romanian-1.123571?referrerPath=2.3064

I am sure they were not all faithfull and some Y 'strayed' :)

Just need Kovács, Gáspár and Domokos (from Bukovina) with L2- Z36- Z56- and dys492=12 to test with Geno 2.0

Any thoughts??

mafe
10-24-2013, 11:32 AM
Birdoswald has the best preserved defences of any of the 16 major forts which supported Hadrian's frontier system. Known to the Romans as 'Banna', from the early 3rd century its garrison was a thousand-strong infantry unit originating in Dacia (modern Romania)

http://www.roman-britain.org/places/banna.htm

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/birdoswald-s-romans-were-actually-romanian-1.123571?referrerPath=2.3064

I am sure they were not all faithfull and some Y 'strayed' :)

Just need Kovács, Gáspár and Domokos (from Bukovina) with L2- Z36- Z56- and dys492=12 to test with Geno 2.0

Any thoughts??

Do you think they are Z194+, CTS7193+, F1493+ or PF4363+?

Solothurn
10-24-2013, 01:11 PM
U152* :), I don't know being honest!

I am GD of 12 of 37 with Gáspár and know it can be way over 20 at 67.

Using Ysearch Kovács is a GD of 30 of 37 with Domokos :eek:


Do you think they are Z194+, CTS7193+, F1493+ or PF4363+?

Solothurn
10-24-2013, 01:26 PM
IMHO

If Geno is too expensive.

Test with FTDNA at 12 markers $49 to join the 'club'

Test DYS492 for $20.

Eventually If 12 test for Z36 or If 14 test Z56. $39 each :(

:)




Fantastic, many thanks indeed for this - extremely helpful. I'll certainly pursue as pragmatic a course as possible, very interested in digging a bit deeper. Also uploaded the 23andme data to GEDmatch etc.

Thank you again Scarlet Ibis.

mafe
10-24-2013, 03:53 PM
U152* :), I don't know being honest!

I am GD of 12 of 37 with Gáspár and know it can be way over 20 at 67.

Using Ysearch Kovács is a GD of 30 of 37 with Domokos :eek:

We definitely need some subclades to break up the U152* group!

Claxon
11-03-2013, 02:25 PM
I paste this from 23 and me, on my page....
Haplogroup R1b1b2a1a1
Today R1b1b2a1a1 is found mostly on the fringes of the North Sea in England, Germany and the Netherlands, where it reaches levels of one-third. That distribution suggests that some of the first men to bear the haplogroup in their Y-chromosomes were residents of Doggerland, a real-life Atlantis that was swallowed up by rising seas in the millennia following the Ice Age.

Doggerland was a low-lying region of forests and wetlands that must have been rich in game; today, fishing trawlers in the North Sea occasionally dredge up the bones and tusks of the mastodons that roamed there. Doggerland had its heyday between about 12,000 years ago, when the Ice Age climate began to ameliorate, and 9,000 years ago, when the meltwaters of the gradually retreating glaciers caused sea levels to rise, drowning the hunter's paradise. Doggerland's inhabitants retreated to the higher ground that is now the North Sea coast."

Agamemnon
04-04-2014, 03:46 AM
I think most of it came with La Tčne.
Prior to that, R-S28 would've been in Bohemia-South Germany for quite some time (I think the Central & Eastern Beaker folk might've been R-S28 for the most).

aDNA is seriously needed though, this is all speculation.
Though I do think people should tone things down instead of claiming that R-U152 came exclusively with the Romans, outlandish tales such as these are bound to disappoint a fair amount of laymen.

Claxon
04-04-2014, 01:38 PM
I think most of it came with La Tčne.
Prior to that, R-S28 would've been in Bohemia-South Germany for quite some time (I think the Central & Eastern Beaker folk might've been R-S28 for the most).

aDNA is seriously needed though, this is all speculation.
Though I do think people should tone things down instead of claiming that R-U152 came exclusively with the Romans, outlandish tales such as these are bound to disappoint a fair amount of laymen.

Apparently Britains DNA thinks MOST likely came in with the Anglo Saxon migration/Invasion. Now, we should bear in mind where our individual U152 originated.

The consensus is that it is Alpine, and Alpine is shared today in the Alpine borders of Germany, Italy, Austria, Switzerland etc.

I would think that if someone who is U52 with a mainly Italian marker, surname etc, we can assume one thing, PERHAPS Legionary, while in my case, my markers , such as revealed by Geno2.0 AND Gedmatch, is mainly German, so I can assume a most like input as As Anglo Saxon.

Again, this SNP is perhaps a couple of thousand years older than these migrations, so an input could have been with the Amesbury Archer, The Roman Legions, The Beaker people, the La Tene peoples into Somerset and Yorkshire, etc.

But I think this is mainly a PERSONAL idea by each individual, depending again, on ancestry, surname, autosomal dna, and perhaps, even a natural inclination towards a certain culture... perhaps a Folk Memory.
Rich

mafe
04-04-2014, 02:04 PM
Probably a combination of:

Beaker people
Hallstatt / La Tčne Celts
Lake dwellers
Gauls / Belgae
Roman legionaries / traders / farmers
Anglo-saxons
Franks
Normans
Swiss mercenaries
Flemish mercenaries
Italian / Jewish Hanseatic traders

:behindsofa:

Agamemnon
04-04-2014, 06:38 PM
Apparently Britains DNA thinks MOST likely came in with the Anglo Saxon migration/Invasion. Now, we should bear in mind where our individual U152 originated.

The consensus is that it is Alpine, and Alpine is shared today in the Alpine borders of Germany, Italy, Austria, Switzerland etc.

I would think that if someone who is U152 with a mainly Italian marker, surname etc, we can assume one thing, PERHAPS Legionary, while in my case, my markers , such as revealed by Geno2.0 AND Gedmatch, is mainly German, so I can assume a most like input as As Anglo Saxon.

Again, this SNP is perhaps a couple of thousand years older than these migrations, so an input could have been with the Amesbury Archer, The Roman Legions, The Beaker people, the La Tene peoples into Somerset and Yorkshire, etc.

But I think this is mainly a PERSONAL idea by each individual, depending again, on ancestry, surname, autosomal dna, and perhaps, even a natural inclination towards a certain culture... perhaps a Folk Memory.
Rich

I see your point though the paucity of U-152 in modern-day Denmark-Shleswig Holstein makes an Anglo-Saxon contribution temptative at best... But who's to say what the pre-migration Anglo-Saxon population looked like, gene-wise?

My wish is that aDNA samples from Hallstatt, La Tčne, Jastorf and other Iron Age cultures in Europe get tested for SNPs below U152 (such as L2, Z36, Z56, etc), this should give us a clear insight.

The fact that Proto-Germanic contains a fair amount of Celtic loanwords (most if them having to do with Iron Age material) surely suggests that some R-U152 could've made its way to the Proto-Germanic-speaking community (I'd be surprised if such a thing didn't take place).

As far as my grandfather's lineages goes, it hails from a village called "Coney Weston", which onced lied within the vicinity of the Iceni tribe's territory... So until new data comes up, I think the case for a La Tčne arrival of U152 in this part of the Isles is a safe bet.

Claxon
04-04-2014, 09:17 PM
[Thanks Mafe and Agamemnon, both good posts. I think the point B DNA is making, is that the u152, being close to Germany/ Italy etc, most likely came in with the Anglo Saxon MIGRATIONS.... not so much that u152 IS Anglo Saxon, or even perhaps Italian, but both Anglo Saxons and Legionaries most likely were a VEHICLE for u152.

Personally, I have always felt that lake Dwellers are significant, at least for an earlier input.

Certainly the area of Glastonbury Tor, which is La Tene AND Lake Dweller, AND the idea of the La Tene mythos is evident in the Arthurian legends ( Sword/ lake)... all in the same place.
I also think there could be something in the parissii area ( you mention Iceni) Brigantes, the Vale of Pickering, that is the area of the Arras culture. There certainly was a lot of flooding in this area of Yorkshire in ancient times.

I think Lake Dwellers are also linked to the Villanovans. It may be quite awhile before we know much more than the general homeland of u 152.....so, perhaps looking at the culture of that area of origin, then looking at similar cultures in Britain, may be our best guess at this time.

All the above is an uneducated guess !

mafe
04-04-2014, 09:41 PM
Richard, I like the sword/lake mythos you put in earlier posts. The Roman helmet in my picture was found in the bogs and it is assumed that the helmet was given a ritual burial after its owner had completed his military service.

MitchellSince1893
04-04-2014, 10:00 PM
The tough thing about Angles and Saxons being a significant source for U152 introduction into the Isles, is while it may be difficult to find Angle descendants in present day Denmark or S-Holstein, I wouldn't think it would be hard to find 5th Century AD Saxon descendants in present day Lower Saxony, yet there isn't a lot of U152 in this area...at least percentage wise.

That is, not all the Saxons went to England. The Saxons were still a major player in Northern Germany 4 centuries after their relatives went to England. One would think 1000 years later their male descendants would still be there in significant numbers. What we do see is U106 is strong in both Anglo Saxon England and Lower Saxony. In fact U106 reaches it highest percentages in the very areas the Angles, Saxon, and Jutes migrated from.

Map of 9th Century Saxon locations and current U152 distribution. Note the paucity of U152 in the Saxon areas.
1683
1684

For my own Haplogroup line (U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150), I look forward to the day when we get far enough down the tree to see the split between predominantly British and predominately French Z150 subclades.

Because Z142 and Z150 are so dominated by British and French descendants, it leads me to believe that this is a pre Roman migration of a group from France to Britain. At some point I would think the British line will have a snp not shared with the French line.

While the Belgae fit this description, they may be too recent as Z142 appears to be older than 1000BC based on estimated STR mutation rates.

Claxon
04-06-2014, 11:36 AM
Richard, I like the sword/lake mythos you put in earlier posts. The Roman helmet in my picture was found in the bogs and it is assumed that the helmet was given a ritual burial after its owner had completed his military service.

Thanks mate.
The bottom line of course, is the AGE of u 152 put against the AGE of historical migrations. Between the two, we need to put the various peoples of interest in a bowl, and stir for about two thousand years, to make a stew that simulates any travel that occurred, such as the Amesbury Archer at Stonehenge, that migrated from the Swiss Alps.
( I actually found him being claimed as a possible Swiss lake Dweller on a Swiss news site yesterday)

I think our best bet, is for forensic/ archeological/ genealogists , whatever, to go into Winchester Cathedral and have a seat. Next to them, and above their heads, are perhaps hundreds of caskets and ossuaries containing the remains of Anglo Saxon kings and their families.

The bones are right there, with graffiti carved into the caskets over the centuries. Will someone reach into one of them during a service, and get a DNA sample ?

It just SEEMS so damned simple.
Let alone testing the Amesbury Archer. Get the curator drunk and smuggle him out. :-)

Rich
DNA Taliban

mafe
05-12-2014, 10:58 AM
Thanks mate.
The bottom line of course, is the AGE of u 152 put against the AGE of historical migrations. Between the two, we need to put the various peoples of interest in a bowl, and stir for about two thousand years, to make a stew that simulates any travel that occurred, such as the Amesbury Archer at Stonehenge, that migrated from the Swiss Alps.
( I actually found him being claimed as a possible Swiss lake Dweller on a Swiss news site yesterday)

I think our best bet, is for forensic/ archeological/ genealogists , whatever, to go into Winchester Cathedral and have a seat. Next to them, and above their heads, are perhaps hundreds of caskets and ossuaries containing the remains of Anglo Saxon kings and their families.

The bones are right there, with graffiti carved into the caskets over the centuries. Will someone reach into one of them during a service, and get a DNA sample ?

It just SEEMS so damned simple.
Let alone testing the Amesbury Archer. Get the curator drunk and smuggle him out. :-)

Rich
DNA Taliban


Another bronze age skeleton found near Stonehenge is the skeleton of the Mediterranean teenage boy known as "The Boy with the Amber Necklace". I think both skeletons could point to the existance of amber/gold/bronze trading routes across Europe.

The "Amber Road" theory is under investigation by a German archeologist called Dr. Timo Ibsen. I really like his findings and could even explain some early distributions of U152.

Here's the great documentary about his findings:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFQxjLWI2_c

jcmax68
08-05-2019, 09:08 PM
While the La Tene Celts seem to have brought a specific subclade of U152 to Britain called L20, there is reason to suspect that L2(xL20) arrived during the Early Bronze Age. The answer is more difficult to answer for subclades Z36 and Z56, although the latter may be more common south of the Alps and may very well signal some of the Roman influx.

What is the basis for the LaTene / Early Bronze arrival in Britain?

jcmax68
08-05-2019, 09:23 PM
Hello, I'm new to Anthrogenica and this forum. I have done BigY700 on FTDNA (kit #843604). My full downtrace from R-U152 is R-U152>L2>Z367>L20>BY69713>FT20578. My terminal SNP is confirmed by my paternal uncle's BigY700 as well. Our MDKA was from Antrim Ireland, born around 1700. He may have been born in Scotland. I have a Y37 (GD3) match with same surname (though no known relation) who also traces to Northern Ireland in early 1800s. His line traces from there back to Midlothian area of Scotland. I have a Y67 (GD4) match who was adopted out of Aberdeen Scotland. He believes he has traced his paternal line by autosomal matching to a MacNeil ancestor in mid-1700s from western isle of Tiree Scotland (not far from Antrim where mine hail from). I also have a Y67 (GD3) match surnamed Pedersen but have never been able to make contact with him. Interestingly, another FTDNA member who is L20 traces to an Anders Gyldenstierne out of Denmark c. 1300. This Gyldenstierne line later had a descendant who line took the name Pedersen. This could imply a distant Norse or Norman connection, but that is speculative. I have one BigY match, surnamed Black at SNP BY69713. He also traces to Northern Ireland in mid-1800s. For what its worth, the last two blocks on my BigY700 at FTDNA are BY69713 (along with BY90902, BY133312, BY94313, FT24199, BY52376, BY146707, FT56478, BY133159, BY149308, BY127517, BY211642, BY77471, FT23737, BY148860, BY143658, BY118281); and my terminal (matched to paternal uncle) at FT20578 (along with FT15484, FT21819, AM00185, FT23317, FT16973, FT20849, FT17859, FT15594, FT26783, FT27199, FT20930, FT25232, FT15797, FT24397, FT15573). I'm having my sons custom SNP paneled at YSEQ. I know for sure that you can test BY69713 and FT20578 at YSEQ now. I've sent them all the listed SNPs so others may be available too. Good to compare notes here. I feel like I've been spinning my wheels for nearly a year.

jcmax68
10-04-2019, 12:58 PM
While the La Tene Celts seem to have brought a specific subclade of U152 to Britain called L20, there is reason to suspect that L2(xL20) arrived during the Early Bronze Age. The answer is more difficult to answer for subclades Z36 and Z56, although the latter may be more common south of the Alps and may very well signal some of the Roman influx.

Can you please point me to what data supports the La Tene theory of origin of L20 in British Isles? I'm delighted to hear it, but I can't find any research or ancient remains reports that makes this link. So far as I've been able to piece together, there are a number of possible L20 vectors into Britain between La Tene era and Norman invasion. I'd love to see or hear why one vector/period of entry is thought to be more probable than others.

glentane
10-04-2019, 01:35 PM
I think our best bet, is for forensic/ archeological/ genealogists , whatever, to go into Winchester Cathedral and have a seat. Next to them, and above their heads, are perhaps hundreds of caskets and ossuaries containing the remains of Anglo Saxon kings and their families.

The bones are right there, with graffiti carved into the caskets over the centuries. Will someone reach into one of them during a service, and get a DNA sample ?

It just SEEMS so damned simple.

[Sorry for going into wet-blanket mode ..]
There has been a preliminary sort-through, and there was a bit of a hoo-ha about possibly identifying Queen Emma ("Emma of Normandy"). Min. no. of individuals stands at 23, so far. The problem is that there have been at least two major episodes of jumbling and general messing about with whatever they originally contained. The first an official re-boxing when new premises were commissioned. The second was when the Roundheads did a spot of iconoclasm and general rioting in the Cathedral. The (actually quite courageous, considering) people doing the recovery and restoration would likely have had absolutely no idea what they were handling, or even how much had been destroyed by Parliamentary boots. Just get what you can find back in the boxes a.s.a.p., before the Army comes back.

The mortuary chests are believed to contain the pre-Conquest remains of kings and bishops, but it had long been known that the bones were jumbled rather than individual skeletons.

Part of this confusion goes back to 1158 when a first group of royal and episcopal remains, reburied for a time after the demolition of Old Minster in 1093–4, were put into lead caskets near the high altar. A contemporary chronicler noted that ‘kings were mixed with bishops, and bishops with kings’. A second group of royal bones, which had been reburied with greater care in the choir of the Norman cathedral, were later put into individual chests, but they seem to have been particular targets for the Roundhead soldiers who ransacked the cathedral in 1642 at the start of the English Civil War, so further mixing of the bones took place. Although the chests bear inscriptions stating who was supposed to be within them, it was clear they bore no relation to the actual contents—and the names of other individuals also said to be in the chests are known only from antiquarian writings. https://www.medievalists.net/2019/05/new-research-on-bones-at-winchester-cathedral-points-to-anglo-saxon-queen/

falconson1
10-04-2019, 03:09 PM
Can you please point me to what data supports the La Tene theory of origin of L20 in British Isles? I'm delighted to hear it, but I can't find any research or ancient remains reports that makes this link. So far as I've been able to piece together, there are a number of possible L20 vectors into Britain between La Tene era and Norman invasion. I'd love to see or hear why one vector/period of entry is thought to be more probable than others.

I have been studying U152/S28 since Gareth Henson gave a spreadsheet of new possible Y SNPs to Jim Wilson (my EthnoAncestry business partner) in 2005 - and I and Charles Kerschner were the first to be identified as positive / derived for the SNP. Shortly thereafter, thanks to the help of citizen scientists, I was either the first or among same to be identified as L2/S139 and L20/S144. The major articles I have written on the subject can be found on the FTDNA U152 and Subclades site: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-u152/about/background - Cimbri, Belgae, Angle, and Danish Viking hypotheses.

As to its presence in England, Jim Wilson long ago called U152/S28 an "east coast SNP" since the academic samples were almost exclusively found within the Angle / Danelaw territory. Of course it can be found across Britain today due to migration since the "Dark Ages". The ONLY ancient DNA evidence for U152 being in England is from York (Schiffels et al., 2016), one of the likely "gladiators" found beheaded from Roman - Iron Age times. This individual could have come from anywhere. This requires us to return to the Continent to look for solid data.

On the Continent we find L2 in 30 or so Bell Beaker samples from across Europe (Olalde et al., 2018) - but no L20 among them even though this SNP was among those tested. L2 is also found among the Lombard (Longobard) samples from Hungary in the Amorim et al., 2018 study. Again no L20. The first indication we have of the existence of L20 is from the Margaryan et al., 2019 study of Viking Era graves. All of the samples from across the "Viking world" were from the Danish Isles of Funen / Fyn and Langeland.

Both of my paternal great grandfathers were L20 from the coastal areas of East Anglia. My surname was originally Falke, a Danish - Norman name, that can be traced to the 1300s. The family were ship builders. My somewhat educated guess is that the family came with the Danish Vikings - likely from the above noted isles (which is what I predicted in 2005). I cannot find anything in history or archaeology let alone DNA that would suggest that the majority of L20 in England has any other origin - although it is certainly possible that the Angles brought some or most of L20 to English shores - they being from Denmark on the Jutland Peninsula directly west of Funen.

I will be the first to acknowledge that ancient DNA studies of England could completely revise what is suggested above - and that would be great. Wishing to know the truth, but working only with hypotheses is very unsatisfactory. Surely within the next 10 years (hope I will still be around) we will have our definitive answer. Believe me that I will be the first to acknowledge that I was wrong - if the evidence is reasonably clear.

Until we have more ancient DNA evidence I stand by the hypothesis that L20 in England is primarily of Danish Viking origin - having likely come to Denmark from the Italian - Swiss Alps (present day hot spot) over the years from at least the early Iron Age, augmented by the documented return of the Jutland Cimbri Celts with their "Swiss" Helvaeti allies in 101 BC after the defeat at Vercellae, Italy. We shall see.

Note that it is still an open question as to whether some L20 (and other subclades of U152 for that matter) arrived with the La Tene Belgae, the Romans, the Angles, the Danish Vikings, the Normans, the Huguenots, and perhaps others. Deep SNP analysis of modern day samples in relation to as yet unearthed ancient DNA samples will tell the tale.

razyn
10-04-2019, 11:15 PM
I have been studying U152/S28 since Gareth Henson gave a spreadsheet of new possible Y SNPs to Jim Wilson (my EthnoAncestry business partner) in 2005 - and I and Charles Kerschner were the first to be identified as positive / derived for the SNP. Shortly thereafter, thanks to the help of citizen scientists, I was either the first or among same to be identified as L2/S139 and L20/S144. The major articles I have written on the subject can be found on the FTDNA U152 and Subclades site: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-u152/about/background - Cimbri, Belgae, Angle, and Danish Viking hypotheses.

As to its presence in England, Jim Wilson long ago called U152/S28 an "east coast SNP" since the academic samples were almost exclusively found within the Angle / Danelaw territory. Of course it can be found across Britain today due to migration since the "Dark Ages". The ONLY ancient DNA evidence for U152 being in England is from York (Schiffels et al., 2016), one of the likely "gladiators" found beheaded from Roman - Iron Age times. This individual could have come from anywhere. This requires us to return to the Continent to look for solid data.

On the Continent we find L2 in 30 or so Bell Beaker samples from across Europe (Olalde et al., 2018) - but no L20 among them even though this SNP was among those tested. L2 is also found among the Lombard (Longobard) samples from Hungary in the Amorim et al., 2018 study. Again no L20. The first indication we have of the existence of L20 is from the Margaryan et al., 2019 study of Viking Era graves. All of the samples from across the "Viking world" were from the Danish Isles of Funen / Fyn and Langeland.

This 2019 paper isn't yet released, but apparently the data isn't embargoed, and quite a bit more of ancient L2 has been found.

Mittnik A., et al., Kinship-based social inequality in Bronze Age Europe

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8066-Genetic-Genealogy-amp-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News-(DISCUSSION-ONLY)&p=607295&viewfull=1#post607295

MitchellSince1893
10-05-2019, 02:51 AM
...As to its presence in England, Jim Wilson long ago called U152/S28 an "east coast SNP" ...

And Wales and large parts of Ireland are still a U152 desert

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/7f/11/917f11b6c5812cdb96324e7f197a2bc6.png

Iceni
10-06-2019, 05:02 PM
I was recently watching a repeat of an antiques programme on UK TV and they were talking about slate mining in the North West of England. The local guide to the Honister mine in the Lake District stated that in the reign of Elizabeth I, miners were brought over from Austria and Southern Germany for their mining skills, apparently not prevalent in the (local?) English population. It caused me to wonder if this may account for traces of U152 in the Cumberland/Westmorland area. Apologies if this has been touched on before.

MitchellSince1893
10-06-2019, 05:46 PM
I was recently watching a repeat of an antiques programme on UK TV and they were talking about slate mining in the North West of England. The local guide to the Honister mine in the Lake District stated that in the reign of Elizabeth I, miners were brought over from Austria and Southern Germany for their mining skills, apparently not prevalent in the (local?) English population. It caused me to wonder if this may account for traces of U152 in the Cumberland/Westmorland area. Apologies if this has been touched on before.

I'm not aware that this has been mentioned before. There has also been Flemish immigration to East Anglia and Scotland, which probably boosted U152 numbers there.

My theory has been that Roman units along the Hadrian Wall contributed to U152 along the Scottish/English border.

U152 in Britain is a complicated story with multiple sources arriving over 1000s of years.

jcmax68
10-30-2020, 03:04 AM
Several U152 and subclades in the Margaryan Viking remains study. Not a high percentage but some. So presumably some came in with the Norse invasions.

sktibo
10-30-2020, 05:22 AM
I'm not aware that this has been mentioned before. There has also been Flemish immigration to East Anglia and Scotland, which probably boosted U152 numbers there.


Thinking about myself, as usual, but I've never considered this in terms of Y-haplogroups, I bet this is also how DF27 came to the isles in many cases. Lots of people with variants of the "Fleming" surname.. any word on if they have FTDNA pages or groups and if so, what the results show?

MitchellSince1893
10-30-2020, 01:20 PM
Thinking about myself, as usual, but I've never considered this in terms of Y-haplogroups, I bet this is also how DF27 came to the isles in many cases. Lots of people with variants of the "Fleming" surname.. any word on if they have FTDNA pages or groups and if so, what the results show?

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/flanders/about/background
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/flemish-in-scotland/about/background

sktibo
10-30-2020, 05:11 PM
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/flanders/about/background
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/flemish-in-scotland/about/background

I did not anticipate the massive number of groups E and I!
thanks for the links

Dewsloth
10-30-2020, 05:18 PM
Thinking about myself, as usual, but I've never considered this in terms of Y-haplogroups, I bet this is also how DF27 came to the isles in many cases. Lots of people with variants of the "Fleming" surname.. any word on if they have FTDNA pages or groups and if so, what the results show?

I don't know about "Fleming" but there are "Flanders" DF19 in the Big Tree...
https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=183
^^ Over to the right in the same block as Ludovici[Ludwig] from Germany.

jcmax68
10-30-2020, 07:06 PM
This is a bit of an old question, and perhaps even a simplistic one, but does anyone have any idea? I believe David Faux touched on this issue in a few of his papers a few years ago, but in the field of genetics, quite a lot changes in just a matter of 2 years.

You are correct. I think that Margaryan's 2019 Viking remains finding have vindicated Dr. Faux at least in part. U152 and subclades of it are clearly represented in Jutland, Funen, and Langeland.

Cascio
10-30-2020, 07:15 PM
My theory has been that Roman units along the Hadrian Wall contributed to U152 along the Scottish/English border.


Is this U152 in the Anglo-Scottish Borders from subclade Z56 which is common in Italy?

Searell
11-25-2020, 01:58 AM
One of the York Gladiator Skeletons, DRIF-22, was U152>L2>FGC22501>Y37744>A12416>BY3497. Scaled innovation estimates Y37744 was in NE Gaul (1300BCE), and A12416 in Britain 410BCE. This fits with a Halstatt or perhaps early La Tene Celtic time frame, late Bronze, early Iron. His DNA profile matches most closely modern Welsh, and his Isotope profile fits SW Britain. I agree however that U152 seems to have been filtering into Britain since that time.

Searell
01-29-2021, 10:23 PM
One of the York Gladiator Skeletons, 6DRIF-22, was U152>L2>FGC22501>Y37744>A12416>BY3497. Scaled innovation estimates Y37744 was in NE Gaul (1300BCE), and A12416 in Britain 410BCE. This fits with a Halstatt or perhaps early La Tene Celtic time frame, late Bronze, early Iron. His DNA profile matches most closely modern Welsh, and his Isotope profile fits SW Britain. I agree however that U152 seems to have been filtering into Britain since that time.

Scaled Innovation has updated the estimate for Rib>U152>A12416 to 800BC in Britain. This is consistent with my A12416 result which shows 43 private variants. This equates to very early or proto-Halstatt Celtic. It is likely that the presence of A12416 in (SE) Britain in 800BC was associated with the Devon and Cornwall tin mining and export industry.

Searell
01-29-2021, 10:42 PM
Yes. This is clearly evident in FTDNA's FGC22501 Project. U152>FGC22501>Y37744 descendants from NE Gaul spread north (Scandinavia), west (to Britain), and east (Czech, Latvia).