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Logistics
10-13-2016, 01:38 AM
I'm curious about the European DNA of Ashkenazim. I know that their y-DNA is (generally speaking) Levantine and in terms of their autosomal DNA on their paternal side they are also (for the most part) overwhelmingly Levantine. However -- what about their mtDNA? I've always heard most Ashkenazim mtDNA is of European origin. However where in Europe does the Ashkenazi Jew's European ancestry come from? I'm also curious about the DNA of Sephardic Jews in general. What is it composed of on both as a whole?

B)

AppalachianGumbo
10-16-2016, 04:49 PM
There are several groups. Ashkenazi, Sephardic and Mizrahi (Oriental Jews). The [Israeli] Mizrahi are the largest ethnic group in Israel and are ancestral Jews of the Levant (Palestine, Israel). Persian Jews and Baghdadi.

You may want to read these two articles. These are for the two you inquired.

Ashkenazi mtDNA.

"The K1a1b1 lineages within which the K1a1b1a sequences nest (including 19 lineages of known ancestry) are solely European, pointing to an ancient European ancestry."

"K1a1b1a is also present at low frequencies in Spanish-exile Sephardic Jews, but absent from non-European Jews, including a database of 289 North African Jews"

"K1a9 accounting for another 20% of Ashkenazi K lineages (or 6% of total Ashkenazi lineages) and also dating to ~2.3 ka with ML again includes both Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi lineages solely from east Europeans"

"K2a2 accounts for another 16% of Ashkenazi K lineages (or ~5% of total Ashkenazi lineages). Ashkenazi lineages are once more found in a shallow subclade, K2a2a1, dating to ~1.5 ka, that otherwise again includes only east Europeans, "

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543

Sephardic mtDNA is T with subclades.

Sephardi

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n4/full/ejhg2011200a.html

kingjohn
10-16-2016, 09:25 PM
very intresting chueta mtdna
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282432998_Founding_mothers_of_Chueta_population
k1a1b1a show up this community never have contact with aschenazi community
so maybe k1a1b1a was present in pre diaspora jews
regards
adam

AJL
10-16-2016, 09:54 PM
There are several groups. Ashkenazi, Sephardic and Mizrahi (Oriental Jews). The [Israeli] Mizrahi are the largest ethnic group in Israel and are ancestral Jews of the Levant (Palestine, Israel). Persian Jews and Baghdadi.

You may want to read these two articles. These are for the two you inquired.

Ashkenazi mtDNA.

"The K1a1b1 lineages within which the K1a1b1a sequences nest (including 19 lineages of known ancestry) are solely European, pointing to an ancient European ancestry."

"K1a1b1a is also present at low frequencies in Spanish-exile Sephardic Jews, but absent from non-European Jews, including a database of 289 North African Jews"

"K1a9 accounting for another 20% of Ashkenazi K lineages (or 6% of total Ashkenazi lineages) and also dating to ~2.3 ka with ML again includes both Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi lineages solely from east Europeans"

"K2a2 accounts for another 16% of Ashkenazi K lineages (or ~5% of total Ashkenazi lineages). Ashkenazi lineages are once more found in a shallow subclade, K2a2a1, dating to ~1.5 ka, that otherwise again includes only east Europeans, "

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543

Sephardic mtDNA is T with subclades.

Sephardi

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n4/full/ejhg2011200a.html

Studies based on HVR1 types only are notoriously unreliable. Also, to say "there is a Sephardic signature in haplogroup T" is not the same as saying "Sephardim are T," because the number of Sephardim who are HV, H, I, J, K, L, N, R, U, V, X, or some other clade vastly outnumber the Ts.

kevinduffy
10-17-2016, 02:52 AM
I'm curious about the European DNA of Ashkenazim. I know that their y-DNA is (generally speaking) Levantine and in terms of their autosomal DNA on their paternal side they are also (for the most part) overwhelmingly Levantine. However -- what about their mtDNA? I've always heard most Ashkenazim mtDNA is of European origin. However where in Europe does the Ashkenazi Jew's European ancestry come from? I'm also curious about the DNA of Sephardic Jews in general. What is it composed of on both as a whole?

B)

As far as i can see the European mtDNA of Ashkenazi Jews is largely overstated. While some of it may be of European origin, most of it seems to be of Middle Eastern origin.

Svabinsky
11-05-2016, 06:25 AM
The raw autosomal DNA of your (predominantly) Ashkenazi individual is, on average, overwhelmingly Eastern Med/Levant/Red Sea/Near East (about 70% - 80%, across most Gedmatch tests). In other words, the overwhelming percentage of Ashkenazi admix comes from Middle Eastern ancestry, not European.

wandering_amorite
11-05-2016, 08:06 AM
As much as I fantasize about that possibility, it doesn't look likely at all. Even if the oft-cited 50 is a lowball (which I believe it is), 70-80% basically imagines that most European ancestry among Ashkenazim is Central/Northern/Eastern European, which isn't the case. Many of the components you're alluding to are anything but rare among Italians (and Iberians, and Greeks), even if I do think the Italian contribution gets overstated.

palamede
11-05-2016, 12:40 PM
The raw autosomal DNA of your (predominantly) Ashkenazi individual is, on average, overwhelmingly Eastern Med/Levant/Red Sea/Near East (about 70% - 80%, across most Gedmatch tests). In other words, the overwhelming percentage of Ashkenazi admix comes from Middle Eastern ancestry, not European.

I agree an important part of autosomal ashkenasi have a levantine origin but 70-80% is exagerated. I find Eurogenes K15 is a good determinant often corroborated by other calculators. The physical phenotype of a part of Ashkenasi is not discernible from Europeans. and to discern an Ashkenasi from a Greek or an Italian requires a trained eye and there are distinguable often by cultural expressions.

Nord Sea___ : Ashk 9.89 Seph 5.29 Samaritan 1.11 Libanese-Christian 1.49 Greek 8.81 Austrian 20.59 Hungarian 24.08 Polish 21.76
Atlantic_____: Ashk 10.70 Seph 14.02 Samaritan 3.28 Libanese-Christian 2.78 Greek 15.49 Austrian 23.17 Hungarian 17.29 Polish 18.55
Baltic_______: Ashk 6.74 Seph 2.36 Samaritan 1.59 Libanese-Christian 1.14 Greek 11.70 Austrian 18.31 Hungarian 20.04 Polish 28.02
East Europ___: Ashk 5.17 Seph 1.42 Samaritan 0.36 Libanese-Christian 0.71 Greek 6.91 Austrian 13.24 Hungarian 12.73 Polish 19.91
Europ w/o WM:Ashk 32.50 Seph 23.09 Samaritan 6.34 Libanese-Christian 6.12 Greek 42.91 Austrian 75.31 Hungarian 74.14 Polish 88.24
Gr
West Mediter : Ashk 14.82 Seph 16.19 Samaritan 13.52 Libanese-Christian 11.81 Greek 17.16 Austrian 8.86 Hungarian 9.49 Polish 5.58
Europ w. WM: Ashk 46.32 Seph 39.30 Samaritan 19.86 Libanese-Christian 17.93 Greek 60.07 Austrian 84.17 Hungarian 83.63 Polish 93.82

West Asian__: Ashk 13.05 Seph 13.51 Samaritan 17.20 Libanese-Christian 20.20 Greek 12.72 Austrian 6.16 Hungarian 5.87 Polish 2.87
East_Med___: Ashk 26.61 Seph 33.88 Samaritan 45.51 Libanese-Christian 47.37 Greek 23.47 Austrian 7.21 Hungarian 7.04 Polish 1.44
Red Sea____: Ashk 8.07 Seph 9.68 Samaritan 13.84__ Libanese-Christian 12.34 Greek 2.73 Austrian 1.25 Hungarian 1.23 Polish 0.66
Tot Mid East:Ashk 47.73 Seph 57.07 Samaritan 76.55 Libanese-Christian 79.91 Greek 38.92 Austrian 14.62 Hungarian 14.14 Polish 4.87

The Atlantic component 14.02 for the Sepharads shows the Iberian influence.

The proportion of Ashkenazi from Levantins of Roman Empire could be 50-60%. There is the problem of Oriental_Roman proselysts which disturbs the calculation. I think a lot of people exagerating the problem. I don't believe the relative number of proselyts compared to Original Jewishes was so important that related by the antisionists and anyway the greatest part of judaist proselysts were christianized later.

I consider

- Say the proportion originated from Israel greater than 65% is the fact of sionists

- Say the proportion originated from Israel lesser than 40% is the fact of antisionists
l

Agamemnon
11-05-2016, 04:53 PM
If the Samaritans (as well as 3DRIF-26 and the Bronze Age samples from 'Ayn Ghazal) are a good proxy for what the Judeans looked like genetically, I think Ashkenazim and Sephardim might derive between between ~58% to ~62% and ~60% to ~65% of their ancestry from the Judeans of old respectively, the rest being mostly Greek (or Italian) with minor (in some cases non-existent) Eastern European or Iberian admixture. Maghrebi Jews (by which I mean Tunisian and Libyan Jews) are another story, despite the fact that they're part of the Western Jewish cluster.

FredBats
11-05-2016, 05:05 PM
The raw autosomal DNA of your (predominantly) Ashkenazi individual is, on average, overwhelmingly Eastern Med/Levant/Red Sea/Near East (about 70% - 80%, across most Gedmatch tests). In other words, the overwhelming percentage of Ashkenazi admix comes from Middle Eastern ancestry, not European.

Yes an Ashkenazi of what is mixed heritage - with very probable Mizrahi Jews - would certainly be passable as that. There's plenty of such pro-Israel or born Israel Ashkenazi who love to overlook that little facet of life. But I do hope you know even before the Nazis came and went a large settlement of Ashkenazi was Israel and where do you think many of the Ashkenazi fled to during the Nazis' region -- Mars?

However, can someone supply me with this "predominantly" Ashkenazi individual's kit number. I have not predominant but 100% Ashkenazi Jewish relatives & friends with no modern Mizrahi Jew influence and they definitely aren't so highly Levant based. It is quite... unfortunate for some shall we say... how those relatives match with not just history but what researchers of actual legitimate Ashkenazi families have been finding.


Though this does raise an amusing conversation I had a few days ago with one of those Ashkenazi friends. Of how non-Jewish people continually peg the word "Ashkenazi" on any Jewish celeb they see even if the Jewish celebs don't identify their sect. It is cute when obvious Sephardi celebs are pegged as "Ashkenazi" all because the word is so commonly used.

Such "Ashkenazi" labels has sort of become like saying all white people are British. All black people Africans. And all Asians Chinese. How amusing isn't it that fact & fiction are such utterly different kettles of fish.

Agamemnon
11-05-2016, 05:10 PM
^^What is it you're trying to say? That Ashkenazi Jews are all crypto-Mizrahim? Statistically, every Ashkenazi Jew is bound to have a couple of Sephardic ancestors, I don't see how any of this makes them less Ashkenazi quite frankly.

Tz85
11-06-2016, 03:11 AM
It's pretty common knowledge these days that Ashkenazi have Sephardi, Mizrahi, etc admixture. Most Ashkenazi Jews have very high middle eastern admixture especially Anatolian, East Med, even if they have lived in Europe for hundreds of years. For example my mom has 30% Mid East admixture, and we haven't lived in the mid east for probably 750 years.

Cinnamon orange
11-06-2016, 09:23 AM
True, but some of that middle eastern/Anatolian like admixture is probably, from Hellenic, Roman and later Jewish groups mixing in the region. It would not be a scenario of pure Judeans who mixed a bit with Greeks and Italians. The ancients in that part of the world were more open to religious hopscotch than today.

Tz85
11-06-2016, 02:44 PM
True, but some of that middle eastern/Anatolian like admixture is probably, from Hellenic, Roman and later Jewish groups mixing in the region. It would not be a scenario of pure Judeans who mixed a bit with Greeks and Italians. The ancients in that part of the world were more open to religious hopscotch than today.

Since when did Ashkenazi Jews mixed with Romans and Hellenic groups? The Jews of that time period weren't Ashkenazi

AppalachianGumbo
11-06-2016, 02:51 PM
I agree an important part of autosomal ashkenasi have a levantine origin but 70-80% is exagerated. I find Eurogenes K15 is a good determinant often corroborated by other calculators. The physical phenotype of a part of Ashkenasi is not discernible from Europeans. and to discern an Ashkenasi from a Greek or an Italian requires a trained eye and there are distinguable often by cultural expressions.
y the proportion originated from Israel lesser than 40% is the fact of antisionists


I agree with you on the phenotype of some European Jewry. I also attached a thumbnail of Dr. Michael Brown, he is also Jewish, now converted Messianic Jew. He could pass for Italian.

Since Wonder Woman will be out soon, thought I'd throw this in. Gal Gadot is Israeli, Ashkenazi Jewish. Her surname was changed from "Greenstein" to "Gadot." She almost reminds me of Ashley Judd.

"She has described her family background as "1/4 Polish, 1/4 Austrian, 1/4 German, and 1/4 Czech" - Wikipedia

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1537586/images/o-GAL-GADOT-facebook.jpg

AJL
11-06-2016, 04:13 PM
Phenotype is irrelevant. Please see our associated Terms of Service (http://www.anthrogenica.com/faq.php) section 3.11:



3.11 Further to the above, threads or posts forwarding requests for ethnicity guessing or 'classifications' based on the pseudoscientific precepts of 'racial taxonomy' are automatically considered as both devoid of substance and trivial. Such content will be deleted without prior notice. Please note members who persistently defy this aspect of content moderation will be sanctioned as deemed appropriate by the administration.

Svabinsky
11-30-2016, 05:04 AM
My mom is 96% Ashkenazi per 23andMe and here are her gedmatch results for the regions traditionally associated with the early Jewish diaspora:

K13:

West_Med 18%
West_Asian 14%
East_Med 38%
Red_Sea 6%

K15%

West_Med 15%
West_Asian 17%
East_Med 29%
Red_Sea 8%

EU Test:

WEST_MED 15%
EAST_MED 29%
WEST_ASIAN 15%
MIDDLE_EASTERN 13%

Dodecad V3

Mediterranean 38%
West_Asian 26%
Southwest_Asian 12%

Her SW Asian/Eastern Med/Near East ranges between 50% - 60%, with another 15% to 20% coming from Western Med. The other 20%+ is a combination of NW/NE Africa (usually between 1% - 4%), Baltics, Atlantic, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, and small traces of various Asian populations.

The Western Med, presumably, covers the Iberian peninsula as well as North Africa because her common non-Ashkenazi populations in her oracles include: Algerian_Jewish, Morocco_Jew, Libyan_Jew, Tunisian_Jew, Sephardic_Jew, Portuguese.

The Eastern Med, presumably, is pretty wide, covering an area from Italy to the Caucuses and Levant. Her common pops (among others) include: Lebanese_Druze, Lebanese_Christian, Cypriot, S_Italian_Sicilian, Tuscans, Greek_Thessaly, Christian_Arabs_Israel, Greek_Smyrna, Lebanese_Muslim, Jew_Syria, Greek_Cretan, Italian_Jewish, Syrian, Turkish, Georgian_Jewish, etc.

The common Middle Eastern populations that pop in her oracles include: Kurdish_Jewish, Iraqi_Jew, Samaritians.

Of her "European" populations that show up in Oracle, interestingly, they also tend to be from the southern part of Europe: Bulgaria, Romania, Montenegro. Only in one of her Oracle-4's did she get 2 hits for German_South.

As an example, here is Oracle 4 for K13:

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi +50% Ashkenazi @ 4.326186


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi +25% Bulgarian +25% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.654012


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Algerian_Jewish + Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.562650
2 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Lebanese_Christian @ 2.654012
3 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.697837
4 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.803951
5 Algerian_Jewish + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Romanian @ 2.861650
6 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian @ 2.954380
7 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Greek_Thessaly + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.964658
8 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + South_Italian @ 3.015286
9 Ashkenazi + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Lebanese_Druze @ 3.053222
10 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly @ 3.057243
11 Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + Greek_Thessaly + Lebanese_Druze @ 3.082773
12 Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Romanian @ 3.095428
13 Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian + Romanian @ 3.123458
14 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Christian + Romanian @ 3.131053
15 Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 3.154343
16 Algerian_Jewish + Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Lebanese_Druze @ 3.158018
17 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Cyprian + Italian_Jewish @ 3.166614
18 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Samaritan @ 3.168005
19 Algerian_Jewish + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Lebanese_Druze @ 3.185900
20 Ashkenazi + East_Sicilian + Greek_Thessaly + Lebanese_Druze @ 3.201269

When I break down all her Oracles, it seems that her "Middle Eastern" or, at least, what is considered Middle Eastern today (Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Iraq, Samaritan, Kurdish, etc.) is closer to 40%-50%, with the other 20% - 30% coming from NW Africa and places along the northern part of the Eastern and Western Med like Greece, Cyprus, Crete, Sicily and the Iberian Pen. Her admix is definitely Mediterranean/Levantine/Near Eastern (the regions associated with the early part of the Jewish diaspora: Iraq to Levant to Med basin) in large part.

The presence of Persian, Assyrian, Cretan, Greek, Turkish/Caucasian/Kurdish, North African DNA, etc, in Jewish admix can be explained by the multitude of migration patterns of the early Jewish diaspora which , likely, picked up a lot of different groups in the general Near Eastern/Eastern Med area, as well as further east (ancient Persia). And not just the migration patterns of early Israelites. God knows what the admix of the people who became the Israelite nation was before they even joined up. Who is to say they were 100% "Middle Eastern" (in the sense of what we think of as Middle East today)? Abraham came from Iraq/Babylon but God knows what his admix (and that of his early followers) looked like to begin with. Presumably, it was largely Middle Eastern but it could have had traces from the Caucuses (because of Iraq's proximity to Turkey), Persia, Eastern Med, etc.

Going back to the early Jewish diaspora. It picked up people in the Sinai/NE Africa, the Levant, Anatolia, Greece, Cyprus, Crete, etc. The admix of early Israelites/adherents to Judaism was, likely, a hodge podge of Middle Eastern, Persian, NE-NW African, Caucases and Med populations. Remember, the early Jews wandered from Babylon to Israel, to Egypt, back to Babylon, Persia, back to Israel, out of Israel, to eastern Greece, Anatolia/Caucuses, etc. As an example, Jews have a 2600 year old history in Georgia. You are talking about early Jewish settlements in Georgia dating to around 500BC, right around the destruction of the first temple.

Svabinsky
11-30-2016, 05:23 AM
PS re: phenotypes, they are irrelevant.

I will not belabor the point (violates terms of service) but here is a photo of the great Russian Jewish cellist Mischa Maisky:

http://www.philharmonie-essen.de/assets/box/800/3687_5215_Maisky--Suzie-Maeder.jpg

and the late great beat poet Ginsberg:

https://opherworld.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/allen_ginsberg_2012_03_20.jpg

Both are Ashkenazi Jews but could easily pass for Middle Eastern =)

I digress.

Myth
12-01-2016, 03:19 AM
Yes an Ashkenazi of what is mixed heritage - with very probable Mizrahi Jews - would certainly be passable as that. There's plenty of such pro-Israel or born Israel Ashkenazi who love to overlook that little facet of life. But I do hope you know even before the Nazis came and went a large settlement of Ashkenazi was Israel and where do you think many of the Ashkenazi fled to during the Nazis' region -- Mars?

However, can someone supply me with this "predominantly" Ashkenazi individual's kit number. I have not predominant but 100% Ashkenazi Jewish relatives & friends with no modern Mizrahi Jew influence and they definitely aren't so highly Levant based. It is quite... unfortunate for some shall we say... how those relatives match with not just history but what researchers of actual legitimate Ashkenazi families have been finding.


Though this does raise an amusing conversation I had a few days ago with one of those Ashkenazi friends. Of how non-Jewish people continually peg the word "Ashkenazi" on any Jewish celeb they see even if the Jewish celebs don't identify their sect. It is cute when obvious Sephardi celebs are pegged as "Ashkenazi" all because the word is so commonly used.

Such "Ashkenazi" labels has sort of become like saying all white people are British. All black people Africans. And all Asians Chinese. How amusing isn't it that fact & fiction are such utterly different kettles of fish.

There is also such bias equally that some view the sephardim as more jewish than the ashkenazi when the two share IBD and are both likely as jewish as the other.

Cinnamon orange
12-03-2016, 07:23 AM
Since when did Ashkenazi Jews mixed with Romans and Hellenic groups? The Jews of that time period weren't Ashkenazi

They formed the later Ashkenazi population.

Bar
10-10-2017, 07:57 AM
If the Samaritans (as well as 3DRIF-26 and the Bronze Age samples from 'Ayn Ghazal) are a good proxy for what the Judeans looked like genetically, I think Ashkenazim and Sephardim might derive between between ~58% to ~62% and ~60% to ~65% of their ancestry from the Judeans of old respectively, the rest being mostly Greek (or Italian) with minor (in some cases non-existent) Eastern European or Iberian admixture. Maghrebi Jews (by which I mean Tunisian and Libyan Jews) are another story, despite the fact that they're part of the Western Jewish cluster.

What percentage of levantine admixture do Maghrebi Jews typically score on GEDmatch?

Claudio
10-10-2017, 10:45 PM
As much as I fantasize about that possibility, it doesn't look likely at all. Even if the oft-cited 50 is a lowball (which I believe it is), 70-80% basically imagines that most European ancestry among Ashkenazim is Central/Northern/Eastern European, which isn't the case. Many of the components you're alluding to are anything but rare among Italians (and Iberians, and Greeks), even if I do think the Italian contribution gets overstated.

I agree..
I still think it's pretty amazing that Ashkenazim are even as Middle Eastern as they are considering the seed populations that started the Ashkenazi most probably would have been Southern European Jews who were already admixed to a degree with Southern Europeans.
You couple that with the amount of further historical time spent in France/Germany and Eastern Europe and it becomes even more amazing.
From what I can gather through Gedmatch results full Ashkenazim come up about as Middle Eastern as some of the very very Middle Eastern Sicilians and Southern Italians the Ones scoring 30% MENA on Autosomal tests like 23andMe.

Claudio
10-10-2017, 10:53 PM
My mom is 96% Ashkenazi per 23andMe and here are her gedmatch results for the regions traditionally associated with the early Jewish diaspora:

K13:

West_Med 18%
West_Asian 14%
East_Med 38%
Red_Sea 6%

K15%

West_Med 15%
West_Asian 17%
East_Med 29%
Red_Sea 8%

EU Test:

WEST_MED 15%
EAST_MED 29%
WEST_ASIAN 15%
MIDDLE_EASTERN 13%

Dodecad V3

Mediterranean 38%
West_Asian 26%
Southwest_Asian 12%

Her SW Asian/Eastern Med/Near East ranges between 50% - 60%, with another 15% to 20% coming from Western Med. The other 20%+ is a combination of NW/NE Africa (usually between 1% - 4%), Baltics, Atlantic, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, and small traces of various Asian populations.

The Western Med, presumably, covers the Iberian peninsula as well as North Africa because her common non-Ashkenazi populations in her oracles include: Algerian_Jewish, Morocco_Jew, Libyan_Jew, Tunisian_Jew, Sephardic_Jew, Portuguese.

The Eastern Med, presumably, is pretty wide, covering an area from Italy to the Caucuses and Levant. Her common pops (among others) include: Lebanese_Druze, Lebanese_Christian, Cypriot, S_Italian_Sicilian, Tuscans, Greek_Thessaly, Christian_Arabs_Israel, Greek_Smyrna, Lebanese_Muslim, Jew_Syria, Greek_Cretan, Italian_Jewish, Syrian, Turkish, Georgian_Jewish, etc.

The common Middle Eastern populations that pop in her oracles include: Kurdish_Jewish, Iraqi_Jew, Samaritians.

Of her "European" populations that show up in Oracle, interestingly, they also tend to be from the southern part of Europe: Bulgaria, Romania, Montenegro. Only in one of her Oracle-4's did she get 2 hits for German_South.

As an example, here is Oracle 4 for K13:

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi +50% Ashkenazi @ 4.326186


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi +25% Bulgarian +25% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.654012


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Algerian_Jewish + Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.562650
2 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Lebanese_Christian @ 2.654012
3 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.697837
4 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.803951
5 Algerian_Jewish + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Romanian @ 2.861650
6 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian @ 2.954380
7 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Greek_Thessaly + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.964658
8 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + South_Italian @ 3.015286
9 Ashkenazi + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Lebanese_Druze @ 3.053222
10 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly @ 3.057243
11 Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + Greek_Thessaly + Lebanese_Druze @ 3.082773
12 Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Romanian @ 3.095428
13 Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian + Romanian @ 3.123458
14 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Christian + Romanian @ 3.131053
15 Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 3.154343
16 Algerian_Jewish + Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Lebanese_Druze @ 3.158018
17 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Cyprian + Italian_Jewish @ 3.166614
18 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Samaritan @ 3.168005
19 Algerian_Jewish + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Lebanese_Druze @ 3.185900
20 Ashkenazi + East_Sicilian + Greek_Thessaly + Lebanese_Druze @ 3.201269

When I break down all her Oracles, it seems that her "Middle Eastern" or, at least, what is considered Middle Eastern today (Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Iraq, Samaritan, Kurdish, etc.) is closer to 40%-50%, with the other 20% - 30% coming from NW Africa and places along the northern part of the Eastern and Western Med like Greece, Cyprus, Crete, Sicily and the Iberian Pen. Her admix is definitely Mediterranean/Levantine/Near Eastern (the regions associated with the early part of the Jewish diaspora: Iraq to Levant to Med basin) in large part.

The presence of Persian, Assyrian, Cretan, Greek, Turkish/Caucasian/Kurdish, North African DNA, etc, in Jewish admix can be explained by the multitude of migration patterns of the early Jewish diaspora which , likely, picked up a lot of different groups in the general Near Eastern/Eastern Med area, as well as further east (ancient Persia). And not just the migration patterns of early Israelites. God knows what the admix of the people who became the Israelite nation was before they even joined up. Who is to say they were 100% "Middle Eastern" (in the sense of what we think of as Middle East today)? Abraham came from Iraq/Babylon but God knows what his admix (and that of his early followers) looked like to begin with. Presumably, it was largely Middle Eastern but it could have had traces from the Caucuses (because of Iraq's proximity to Turkey), Persia, Eastern Med, etc.

Going back to the early Jewish diaspora. It picked up people in the Sinai/NE Africa, the Levant, Anatolia, Greece, Cyprus, Crete, etc. The admix of early Israelites/adherents to Judaism was, likely, a hodge podge of Middle Eastern, Persian, NE-NW African, Caucases and Med populations. Remember, the early Jews wandered from Babylon to Israel, to Egypt, back to Babylon, Persia, back to Israel, out of Israel, to eastern Greece, Anatolia/Caucuses, etc. As an example, Jews have a 2600 year old history in Georgia. You are talking about early Jewish settlements in Georgia dating to around 500BC, right around the destruction of the first temple.

Great post.
You make a lot of valid points. 👍

Aristobule
10-11-2017, 08:05 AM
What percentage of levantine admixture do Maghrebi Jews typically score on GEDmatch?

To my knowledge, there is no specific levantine component on gedmatch calculators
I particulary use Eurogenes K15 because its data base results is available on the net
Levantines (Lebanese, Druze,Samaritans,Palestinians) mainly score East Med :45/50% ,West Asia :15/20%, Red Sea 10/15%, West Med 8/14%

Average results north african Jews from Eurogenes K15

ALGERIAN JEWS

East Med 34.8
West Asian 10.7
Red Sea 8.2
West Med18.8
North Sea 5.3
Atlantic 12.7
Baltic 2.6
Eastern Euro 1.3
Northeast African 2.4
Sub-Saharan 1.8


TUNISIAN JEWS

East Med 37.5
West Asian 12.9
Red Sea 10.6
West Med 15.2
North Sea 3.5
Atlantic 12.1
Baltic 1.8
Eastern Euro 0.1
Northeast African 4.5
Sub-Saharan 0.7

LIBYAN JEWS

East Med 37.9
West Asian 10.9
Red Sea 10.6
West Med 16.5
North Sea 8.1
Atlantic 6.4
Baltic 1
Eastern Euro 0.2
Northeast African 6
Sub-Saharan 0.8

Svabinsky
11-07-2017, 04:15 AM
To my knowledge, there is no specific levantine component on gedmatch calculators
I particulary use Eurogenes K15 because its data base results is available on the net
Levantines (Lebanese, Druze,Samaritans,Palestinians) mainly score East Med :45/50% ,West Asia :15/20%, Red Sea 10/15%, West Med 8/14%

Average results north african Jews from Eurogenes K15

ALGERIAN JEWS

East Med 34.8
West Asian 10.7
Red Sea 8.2
West Med18.8
North Sea 5.3
Atlantic 12.7
Baltic 2.6
Eastern Euro 1.3
Northeast African 2.4
Sub-Saharan 1.8


TUNISIAN JEWS

East Med 37.5
West Asian 12.9
Red Sea 10.6
West Med 15.2
North Sea 3.5
Atlantic 12.1
Baltic 1.8
Eastern Euro 0.1
Northeast African 4.5
Sub-Saharan 0.7

LIBYAN JEWS

East Med 37.9
West Asian 10.9
Red Sea 10.6
West Med 16.5
North Sea 8.1
Atlantic 6.4
Baltic 1
Eastern Euro 0.2
Northeast African 6
Sub-Saharan 0.8

My wife if 1/2 Iraqi Jewish and 1/2 Sephardi (Turkey)

Her K15 results:

East_Med 42.32
West_Asian 18.07
Red_Sea 11.27
West_Med 10.66
North_Sea 5.34
Atlantic 6.06
Baltic 1.61
Eastern_Euro 1.7
South_Asian 2.54
Northeast_African 0.39

Kale
11-07-2017, 04:36 AM
I know absolutely nothing of the population history of Jewish peoples, I just like numbers, so forgive me if my population choices are inaccurate. Please feel free to suggest better ones if they are available. Here is a d-stat model for Ashkenazi Jews in one of Davidski's spreadsheets. The fit is quite solid and pretty clean.

61.8% Italian_Tuscan
21.0% BedouinB
16.4% Druze
1.1% Ulchi
-0.3% Loschbour
Outgroups: Ami, Anatolia_Neolithic, Bichon, Iberia_EN, Iran_Chalcolithic, Karitiana, Kostenki14, Kotias, Papuan, Ust_Ishim, Yamnaya_Samara

Bar
05-15-2018, 08:49 AM
Why are Ashkenazim listed as European in Ancestrydna and 23andme if they are half ME?

kingjohn
05-15-2018, 04:37 PM
I agree..
I still think it's pretty amazing that Ashkenazim are even as Middle Eastern as they are considering the seed populations that started the Ashkenazi most probably would have been Southern European Jews who were already admixed to a degree with Southern Europeans.
You couple that with the amount of further historical time spent in France/Germany and Eastern Europe and it becomes even more amazing.
From what I can gather through Gedmatch results full Ashkenazim come up about as Middle Eastern as some of the very very Middle Eastern Sicilians and Southern Italians the Ones scoring 30% MENA on Autosomal tests like 23andMe.

what is amazing here they didn't mixed with surrounding population "thanks" to Judaism ;)
and we earn the hate of everyone .....

Archimedes
05-15-2018, 10:59 PM
Why are Ashkenazim listed as European in Ancestrydna and 23andme if they are half ME?

Ashkenazim are not half Middle Eastern. If they are, then so are Southern Italians, as the genetic profiles are quite similar. The vast majority of Ashkenazim last had a 100% Middle Eastern ancestor 1500-2500 years ago.

Bar
05-16-2018, 10:04 AM
Ashkenazim are not half Middle Eastern. If they are, then so are Southern Italians, as the genetic profiles are quite similar. The vast majority of Ashkenazim last had a 100% Middle Eastern ancestor 1500-2500 years ago.

They owe about half of their autosomal DNA to an ancestral ME population according to most academic models. So basically they are grouped with europeans because their basal profile looks similar to South Italians? That doesn't explain why they are often marked as eastern/central european in 23andme though.

Archimedes
05-16-2018, 12:21 PM
They owe about half of their autosomal DNA to an ancestral ME population according to most academic models. So basically they are grouped with europeans because their basal profile looks similar to South Italians? That doesn't explain why they are often marked as eastern/central european in 23andme though.

No, most models do not show that. I don't think any do ,actually. Some models do show that, perhaps, the majority of paternal lines are of middle eastern origin.

Bar
05-16-2018, 01:07 PM
No, most models do not show that. I don't think any do ,actually. Some models do show that, perhaps, the majority of paternal lines are of middle eastern origin.

Nope most peer reviewed sources have them modeled as 50% ME, 35% Southern EU, and ~15% of something more Northern.

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1006644

Archimedes
05-16-2018, 01:42 PM
Nope most peer reviewed sources have them modeled as 50% ME, 35% Southern EU, and ~15% of something more Northern.

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1006644

You do realize that's not what the study actually claims. Further, you linked 1 study. The conclusion, "Nope most peer reviewed sources have them modeled as 50% ME, 35% Southern EU, and ~15% of something more Northern.", therefore, does not follow

Before I actually link studies, let's examine what the paper says.

" The actual admixture history might have been highly complex, including multiple geographic sources and admixture events. Moreover, due to the genetic similarity and complex history of the European populations involved (particularly in Southern Europe [51]), the multiple paths of AJ migration across Europe [10], and the strong genetic drift experienced by AJ in the late Middle Ages [9, 16], there seems to be a limit on the resolution to which the AJ admixture history can be reconstructed."

" What is perhaps surprising is the timing of the Southern European admixture to ≈24–49 generations ago, since Jews are known to have resided in Italy already since antiquity. This result would imply no gene flow between Jews and local Italian populations almost until the turn of the millennium"



No gene flow between communities for a 1000 years. There is, quite obviously, something wrong with the model, which they seem to acknowledge.

Also, the study, when determining admixture %'s, conveniently ignored various ethnic groups admixture %'s.

"Specifically, sampling is relatively sparse in North-Western and Central Europe (and particularly, Germany is missing), and sample sizes in Eastern Europe are small (10–20 individuals per population). In addition, we did not consider samples from the Caucasus (however, this is not expected to significantly affect the results [5]). We also neglected any sub-Saharan African ancestry, even though Southern European and Middle-Eastern populations (including Jews) are known to harbor low levels (≈5–10%) of such ancestry"

Here's another one, though it's relatively minor

"Finally, we stress that our results are based on the working hypothesis that Ashkenazi Jews are the result of admixture between primarily Middle-Eastern and European ancestors, based on previous literature [4–8] and supported by the strong localization signal of the ME source to the Levant. Strong deviations from this assumption may lead to inaccuracies in our historical model.

Here's a study; The conclusion is that Ashkenazim are closer to numerous European populations than to any Middle Eastern group

http://www.pnas.org/content/107/37/16222.full

Here's another one. Conclusion is the same

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730349/

Another one, which has the exact same conclusion. http://www.pnas.org/content/107/37/16222.full

I could list several more. The point is, yes, there are some studies that say what you are claiming, but they are not the majority.

Tz85
05-16-2018, 03:38 PM
I've seen full Southern Italians and Sicilians come back more ME or Levantine than full Ashkenazi Jews. Let's also not forget that Jews have been dwelling in Italy for 2000+ years, and Italy has the oldest Jewish community, outside of Israel. Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews have mixed there for centuries.

kingjohn
05-16-2018, 04:00 PM
I've seen full Southern Italians and Sicilians come back more ME or Levantine than full Ashkenazi Jews. Let's also not forget that Jews have been dwelling in Italy for 2000+ years, and Italy has the oldest Jewish community, outside of Israel. Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews have mixed there for centuries.

indeed
to be honest i almost sure i got the 12% north italy or most of it in living dna from my maternal sefhardi grandfather
dont i think i got from the aschenazi or from my bulgarian granny .....

Bar
05-16-2018, 04:38 PM
You realize that neither of these papers actually refute that they are a hybrid population? Bray et al. 2010 (you posted the same link twice) presents the following model:

To quantify the level of admixture within the AJ genome given the model of a Middle Eastern origin and European admixture, we applied a likelihood method (34) to differentiate the relative ancestry of each locus across the genome. We used the combined Palestinian and Druze populations to represent the Middle Eastern ancestor and tested three different European groups as the European ancestral population (SI Materials and Methods). Using these proxy ancestral populations, we calculated the amount of European admixture in the AJ population to be 35 to 55%.

That leaves 45-65% to the ancestral ME population. A rather sizeable portion.

The second link states:

Possible exceptions to this observation of geographic correspondence include the Ashkenazi Jewish population. While the Ashkenazi are clearly of southern origin based on both PCA and STRUCTURE studies, in our analyses of diverse European populations (Figure 1), this group appears to have a unique genotypic pattern that may not reflect geographic origins.

Meaning that labeling them as ''Eastern European'' is dubious at best. The paper then goes to suggest that the ashkenazi positioning near italians is likely to be incidental and a result of the admixture event that occurred involving the more nothern populations:

Although the proximity of the AJ and Italian populations could be explained by their admixture prior to the Ashkenazi settlement in Central Europe (13), it should be noted that different demographic models may potentially yield similar principal component projections (33); thus, it is also consistent that the projection of the AJ populations is primarily the outcome of admixture with Central and Eastern European hosts that coincidentally shift them closer to Italians along principle component axes relative to Middle Easterners.


I also noticed both papers are quite old, if you could provide something more recent that would be greatly appreciated. I provided that one link because (afaik) it is the most recent paper dedicated to Ashkenazi origins, apart from one written by Elhaik. Other studies which employ the aforementioned model just off the top of my head:
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5835
https://shaicarmi.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/aj_admixture_poster.pdf

Also the anticipated paper on BA Canaanites appears to model them as ~55% levantine:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34856-Upcoming-paper-on-Bronze-Age-Canaanites?p=524076&viewfull=1#post524076

Something that may also be of interest with regard to ancient DNA from that region:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11124-A-new-paper-on-Ashkenazi-Jews&p=253600&viewfull=1#post253600

Bar
05-16-2018, 04:41 PM
I've seen full Southern Italians and Sicilians come back more ME or Levantine than full Ashkenazi Jews. Let's also not forget that Jews have been dwelling in Italy for 2000+ years, and Italy has the oldest Jewish community, outside of Israel. Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews have mixed there for centuries.

Perhaps, as a group however they are slightly north shifted relative to Western Jews. So the answer as to why 23andme marked Ashkenazi as Central/Eastern European is because they cluster close to sicilians? That doesn't even make sense.
23209

kingjohn
05-16-2018, 05:12 PM
Perhaps, as a group however, they are more north shifted.

people here forget aschenazi also acquired 5-8% east european admixture probably polish
{some polish woman }
so there is some east european dna layer and it is post bottleneck on top of the roman gene flow admixture that
happen before the aschenazi bottleneck ....

Tz85
05-16-2018, 05:24 PM
Perhaps, as a group however they are slightly north shifted relative to Western Jews. So the answer as to why 23andme marked Ashkenazi as Central/Eastern European is because they cluster close to sicilians? That doesn't even make sense.
23209

I mean, it's a know fact that full Ashkenazi Jews genetically cluster closer to Southern Italians than any other European population. Run any full Ashkenazi sample through admixture, and the main consistent european population that comes up is Southern Italian. I really don't understand why this is a shock to people. Most admixture goes back around 2000 years. This is when the Rome ruled Europe, and the Jews essentially dwelt in Southern Europe, outside of Israel.

Archimedes
05-16-2018, 05:31 PM
You realize that neither of these papers actually refute that they are a hybrid population? Bray et al. 2010 (you posted the same link twice) presents the following model:

To quantify the level of admixture within the AJ genome given the model of a Middle Eastern origin and European admixture, we applied a likelihood method (34) to differentiate the relative ancestry of each locus across the genome. We used the combined Palestinian and Druze populations to represent the Middle Eastern ancestor and tested three different European groups as the European ancestral population (SI Materials and Methods). Using these proxy ancestral populations, we calculated the amount of European admixture in the AJ population to be 35 to 55%.

That leaves 45-65% to the ancestral ME population. A rather sizeable portion.

The second link states:

Possible exceptions to this observation of geographic correspondence include the Ashkenazi Jewish population. While the Ashkenazi are clearly of southern origin based on both PCA and STRUCTURE studies, in our analyses of diverse European populations (Figure 1), this group appears to have a unique genotypic pattern that may not reflect geographic origins.

Meaning that labeling them as ''Eastern European'' is dubious at best. The paper then goes to suggest that the ashkenazi positioning near italians is likely to be incidental and a result of the admixture event that occurred involving the more nothern populations:

Although the proximity of the AJ and Italian populations could be explained by their admixture prior to the Ashkenazi settlement in Central Europe (13), it should be noted that different demographic models may potentially yield similar principal component projections (33); thus, it is also consistent that the projection of the AJ populations is primarily the outcome of admixture with Central and Eastern European hosts that coincidentally shift them closer to Italians along principle component axes relative to Middle Easterners.


I also noticed both papers are quite old, if you could provide something more recent that would be greatly appreciated. I provided that one link because (afaik) it is the most recent paper dedicated to Ashkenazi origins, apart from one written by Elhaik. Other studies which employ the aforementioned model just off the top of my head:
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5835
https://shaicarmi.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/aj_admixture_poster.pdf

Also the anticipated paper on BA Canaanites appears to model them as ~55% levantine:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34856-Upcoming-paper-on-Bronze-Age-Canaanites?p=524076&viewfull=1#post524076

Something that may also be of interest with regard to ancient DNA from that region:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11124-A-new-paper-on-Ashkenazi-Jews&p=253600&viewfull=1#post253600



The upcoming paper by Reich is about ancient populations, some dating over 4,000 years ago. It's also pure speculation. I never once stated that Ashkenazim are not a hybrid. They absolutely are. They are a hybrid that was formed in Europe, and are distinct from, not only other Europeans, but other Jewish populations. I don't know of any one that would dispute that the Ashkenazim were formed in Europe. That's the whole point. Exact admixture %'s for ancient populations is another matter. I get quite a bit of Near East when I run certain calculators, but I'm not going to claim I'm Near Eastern, when my nearest Near Ancestor lived a few thousand years ago. Yes, Ashkenazim can trace certain lines to the Middle East, though they moved to Europe, in most cases, approximately 2000 years ago. Now, you can claim these people as Middle Eastern. That's fine. I would not. That's all

ADW_1981
05-16-2018, 05:36 PM
They owe about half of their autosomal DNA to an ancestral ME population according to most academic models. So basically they are grouped with europeans because their basal profile looks similar to South Italians? That doesn't explain why they are often marked as eastern/central european in 23andme though.

That doesn't have any meaning. It's just referring to the fact the Ashkenazi pops were in eastern Europe geographically, it's nothing to do with their deep ancestry. Guys it's a geographic label, that's all.

Bar
05-16-2018, 06:16 PM
The upcoming paper by Reich is about ancient populations, some dating over 4,000 years ago. It's also pure speculation. I never once stated that Ashkenazim are not a hybrid. They absolutely are. They are a hybrid that was formed in Europe, and are distinct from, not only other Europeans, but other Jewish populations. I don't know of any one that would dispute that the Ashkenazim were formed in Europe. That's the whole point. Exact admixture %'s for ancient populations is another matter. I get quite a bit of Near East when I run certain calculators, but I'm not going to claim I'm Near Eastern, when my nearest Near Ancestor lived a few thousand years ago. Yes, Ashkenazim can trace certain lines to the Middle East, though they moved to Europe, in most cases, approximately 2000 years ago. Now, you can claim these people as Middle Eastern. That's fine. I would not. That's all

I don't think anyone claims they are Middle Eastern in the conventional definition, but to categorize them as ''simply European'' would involve ignoring a fairly substantial part of their genome and is somewhat dishonest (imo) given their hybrid status and the fact that they don't resemble their respective host populations (Russians, Polish, German etc) like other europeans normally do.



I mean, it's a know fact that full Ashkenazi Jews genetically cluster closer to Southern Italians than any other European population. Run any full Ashkenazi sample through admixture, and the main consistent european population that comes up is Southern Italian. I really don't understand why this is a shock to people. Most admixture goes back around 2000 years. This is when the Rome ruled Europe, and the Jews essentially dwelt in Southern Europe, outside of Israel.

I'm aware of that, I did not suggest otherwise, re-read my initial question before jumping the gun. I was asking why companies like 23andme and Ancestrydna sometimes list them under central/eastern european. Their close proximity to Sicilians doesn't answer that question. So what? Is it because their ethnogenesis as we know it took place there?

kingjohn
05-16-2018, 06:18 PM
they have 5-8% eastern european dna yes it is a minority elment
but it is still there ....
you can look at johnst full aschenazi living dna results he score total 4.6% north east euruopen elments
i mention living dna
because thanks to the fact they dont have aschenazi and sefhardi refernces we can see which european allells aschenazi are made of
same goes for iberian sefhardi .....

p.s
like i think my 12% north italy is mainly from my sefhardi grandfather

Targum
05-16-2018, 07:18 PM
I don't think anyone claims they are Middle Eastern in the conventional definition, but to categorize them as ''simply European'' would involve ignoring a fairly substantial part of their genome and is somewhat dishonest (imo) given their hybrid status and the fact that they don't resemble their respective host populations (Russians, Polish, German etc) like other europeans normally do.




I'm aware of that, I did not suggest otherwise, re-read my initial question before jumping the gun. I was asking why companies like 23andme and Ancestrydna sometimes list them under central/eastern european. Their close proximity to Sicilians doesn't answer that question. So what? Is it because their ethnogenesis as we know it took place there?
Yes for 23andme it is an arbitrary geographic convenience, unrelated to the well known ingredients in the Ashkenazi soup

jkotl0327
06-04-2020, 05:18 PM
What is the evidence for K1a1b1a being European that is often sited by many maximalists of the European contribution to Ashkenazi DNA, like Costa? K1a1b1 came into existence 14000 years ago before neolithic migrations, whereas most of its daughter lineages arose during or after the neolithic migrations. K1a1b1, and thus K1a1b1a, could have easily arose in the Middle East, even if K1a1b1b, or other types of K1a1b1 arose in Europe. Although no Mizrahim with K1a1b1a have been found, as far as I know, neither have any Southern Europeans.

grumpydaddybear
06-04-2020, 08:09 PM
What is the evidence for K1a1b1a being European that is often sited by many maximalists of the European contribution to Ashkenazi DNA, like Costa? K1a1b1 came into existence 14000 years ago before neolithic migrations, whereas most of its daughter lineages arose during or after the neolithic migrations. K1a1b1, and thus K1a1b1a, could have easily arose in the Middle East, even if K1a1b1b, or other types of K1a1b1 arose in Europe. Although no Mizrahim with K1a1b1a have been found, as far as I know, neither have any Southern Europeans.


It's from 2013, so kind of old but it states the basic argument I've heard.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543.pdf


"K1a1b1a ... accounts for 63% of Ashkenazi K lineages (or B20% of total Ashkenazi lineages) and dates to B4.4 ka with maximum likelihood (ML); however, all of the samples within it, except for one, nest within a further subclade, K1a1b1a1, dating to B2.3 ka (Supplementary Data 2). K1a1b1a1 is also present in non-Ashkenazi samples, mostly from central/east Europe. As they are nested by Ashkenazi lineages, these are likely due to gene flow from Ashkenazi communities into the wider population. The pattern of gene flow out into the neighbouring communities is seen in the other two major K founders, and also in haplogroups H and J; it is especially clear when the nesting and nested populations are more distinct, for example in the case of haplogroup HV1b, which has a deep ancestry in the Near East (Fig. 5; Supplementary Table S4)."

However, the authors do not address the possibility of genetic out flow.

The other argument is parsimony (via Razib Khan). If Ashkenazim are about 50% Euro and 50% Levantine and if the vast number of Y haplogroups are Levantine, then it makes sense that the European component is female mediated.

EDIT: did a bit more research:

OTOH, non-European K1a1b1a also exist

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19166/

"Interestingly, subclade K1a1b1a is also detected in Indian Jewish 3, which is one of the major founder lineage of the Jewish diaspora8,17, but was not observed among local Indian populations."

and

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.3109/24701394.2016.1174222

"Moreover, we linked the unexplored genetic connection between Ashkenazi Jews and Pashtun. The presence of specific haplotypes J1b (4%) and K1a1b1a (5%) pointed to a genetic connection of Jewish conglomeration in Khattak tribe."

I'm changing my mind about this (I'm also K1a1b1a)...

jkotl0327
06-04-2020, 08:32 PM
It's from 2013, so kind of old but it states the basic argument I've heard.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543.pdf


"K1a1b1a ... accounts for 63% of Ashkenazi K lineages (or B20% of total Ashkenazi lineages) and dates to B4.4 ka with maximum likelihood (ML); however, all of the samples within it, except for one, nest within a further subclade, K1a1b1a1, dating to B2.3 ka (Supplementary Data 2). K1a1b1a1 is also present in non-Ashkenazi samples, mostly from central/east Europe. As they are nested by Ashkenazi lineages, these are likely due to gene flow from Ashkenazi communities into the wider population. The pattern of gene flow out into the neighbouring communities is seen in the other two major K founders, and also in haplogroups H and J; it is especially clear when the nesting and nested populations are more distinct, for example in the case of haplogroup HV1b, which has a deep ancestry in the Near East (Fig. 5; Supplementary Table S4)."

However, the authors do not address the possibility of genetic out flow.

The other argument is parsimony (via Razib Khan). If Ashkenazim are about 50% Euro and 50% Levantine and if the vast number of Y haplogroups are Levantine, then it makes sense that the European component is female mediated.

EDIT: did a bit more research:

OTOH, non-European K1a1b1a also exist

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19166/

"Interestingly, subclade K1a1b1a is also detected in Indian Jewish 3, which is one of the major founder lineage of the Jewish diaspora8,17, but was not observed among local Indian populations."

and

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.3109/24701394.2016.1174222

"Moreover, we linked the unexplored genetic connection between Ashkenazi Jews and Pashtun. The presence of specific haplotypes J1b (4%) and K1a1b1a (5%) pointed to a genetic connection of Jewish conglomeration in Khattak tribe."

I'm changing my mind about this (I'm also K1a1b1a)...

The K1a1b1a being in Indian Jews and Pashtuns is news to me, but seems like pretty concrete evidence of a Near Eastern origin for the group. I would make a reverse argument out of what you said about parsimony: Since most Ashkenazi Y-DNA lineages and about half of mtDNA lineages (K, N, around half of H and others), are Near Eastern, then Ashkenazim should not be considered 50-50 Middle East/Euro, but rather majority Middle Eastern.

hartaisarlag
06-04-2020, 08:55 PM
The K1a1b1a being in Indian Jews and Pashtuns is news to me, but seems like pretty concrete evidence of a Near Eastern origin for the group. I would make a reverse argument out of what you said about parsimony: Since most Ashkenazi Y-DNA lineages and about half of mtDNA lineages (K, N, around half of H and others), are Near Eastern, then Ashkenazim should not be considered 50-50 Middle East/Euro, but rather majority Middle Eastern.

But there's no autosomal DNA model that fits the theory of Ashkenazim being a strong majority Middle Eastern. >50% is possible (but not a given); >60% is stretching it to the maximum.

StillWater
06-04-2020, 09:10 PM
What is the evidence for K1a1b1a being European that is often sited by many maximalists of the European contribution to Ashkenazi DNA, like Costa? K1a1b1 came into existence 14000 years ago before neolithic migrations, whereas most of its daughter lineages arose during or after the neolithic migrations. K1a1b1, and thus K1a1b1a, could have easily arose in the Middle East, even if K1a1b1b, or other types of K1a1b1 arose in Europe. Although no Mizrahim with K1a1b1a have been found, as far as I know, neither have any Southern Europeans.

The K1a1b1a is present in Pashtuns, Indian Jews, and Spaniards. It is present in a single known instance of an Iraqi Jewish lineage. (edit: noticed someone mentioned Pashtuns and Indian Jews already)

jkotl0327
06-05-2020, 12:21 AM
But there's no autosomal DNA model that fits the theory of Ashkenazim being a strong majority Middle Eastern. >50% is possible (but not a given); >60% is stretching it to the maximum.

I personally don’t subscribe to the theory that Jews mixed almost completely with Northern Italians, i.e. I think there is room to say that Jews probably mixed with South Italians, North Italians, Swiss/S. Germans, and Iberians during the dark ages, although I’m not making any calls on how much of the admixture came from each group. The border between North Italy and South Germany wasn’t as defined back then and there were Germanic tribes roaming around Italy during that time. As far as I know the only relevant DNA sample from the area for the time period in question is a 600s Longobard grave site in Torino. Also, we need a Judean DNA sample, that would help refine all of the the theories on Jewish admixture.

hartaisarlag
06-05-2020, 12:28 AM
I personally don’t subscribe to the theory that Jews mixed almost completely with Northern Italians, i.e. I think there is room to say that Jews probably mixed with South Italians, North Italians, Swiss/S. Germans, and Iberians during the dark ages, although I’m not making any calls on how much of the admixture came from each group. The border between North Italy and South Germany wasn’t as defined back then and there were Germanic tribes roaming around Italy during that time. Also, we need a Judean DNA sample, that would help refine all of the the theories on Jewish admixture.

I don't disagree with you at all here. But most models that take South Italians into account drop the Judaean share considerably.

jkotl0327
06-05-2020, 01:04 AM
The K1a1b1a is present in Pashtuns, Indian Jews, and Spaniards. It is present in a single known instance of an Iraqi Jewish lineage. (edit: noticed someone mentioned Pashtuns and Indian Jews already)

What is the study with the Indian and Iraqi K1a1b1a? I would really like to read it. I assume that it is more likely that it spread from Jews to Spaniards not vice-versa then.

StillWater
06-05-2020, 02:01 AM
What is the study with the Indian and Iraqi K1a1b1a? I would really like to read it. I assume that it is more likely that it spread from Jews to Spaniards not vice-versa then.

I want K1a1b1a to be Judean as well, but you have to acknowledge the evidence in the other direction as well. The sibling clades are also found in and around Iberia. K1a1b1 has a Western distribution. This is the Indian Jewish study: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19166/

The Iraqi Jewish K1a1b1a belongs to someone many of us know.

jkotl0327
06-05-2020, 02:20 AM
I want K1a1b1a to be Judean as well, but you have to acknowledge the evidence in the other direction as well. The sibling clades are also found in and around Iberia. K1a1b1 has a Western distribution. This is the Indian Jewish study: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19166/

The Iraqi Jewish K1a1b1a belongs to someone many of us know.

Like I mentioned earlier, K1a1b1 arose 14000 ybp, in pre-Neolithic times, and all the daughter clades arose during or post-Neolithic, making it possible, even likely that K1a1b1 arose in the Middle East, and that some of its daughter clades arose in the Middle East and some in Neolithic Europe. We see this with many haplogroups. Also, many of the other K1a1b1 types exist in the British Isles as well, but most people don't argue for British admixture in western Jews. For me, the K1a1b1a in Indian Jews, Iraqi Jews, and Pashtuns is the best evidence for its origin. K1a1b1a originated 4800 ybp, and can be found in Ashkenazim, Mizrahim, and Iberians. There was much less gene flow from Ashkenazim to Iraqi Jews during the Middle Ages than gene flow from Western Jews to Iberians during the Middle Ages. I am not saying that there is no evidence for Iberian origin, just that it seems to be outweighed by the evidence for MENA origin.

Erikl86
06-05-2020, 02:14 PM
I want K1a1b1a to be Judean as well, but you have to acknowledge the evidence in the other direction as well. The sibling clades are also found in and around Iberia. K1a1b1 has a Western distribution. This is the Indian Jewish study: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19166/

The Iraqi Jewish K1a1b1a belongs to someone many of us know.

Iraqi Jews had a very low level but still documented Syrian Jewish gene inflow during the 18th and 19th centuries - and K1a1b1a exists among Syrian Jews as we all know.

hartaisarlag
06-05-2020, 07:06 PM
Iraqi Jews had a very low level but still documented Syrian Jewish gene inflow during the 18th and 19th centuries - and K1a1b1a exists among Syrian Jews as we all know.

Hell, a very clearly Ashkenazi downstream branch of R-Y2619 has shown up in at least one Iraqi Jew.

Erikl86
06-05-2020, 07:48 PM
Hell, a very clearly Ashkenazi downstream branch of R-Y2619 has shown up in at least one Iraqi Jew.

Yep. The gene flow from Syrian Jews was way too low so that really any affect it might have had on the autosomal makeup of Iraqi Jews is by now "batel b'shishim", if one is to use the halakhatic phrase, but can cause few Ashkenazi subclades to appear every now and then on the uniparental front.

jkotl0327
06-05-2020, 11:21 PM
Yep. The gene flow from Syrian Jews was way too low so that really any affect it might have had on the autosomal makeup of Iraqi Jews is by now "batel b'shishim", if one is to use the halakhatic phrase, but can cause few Ashkenazi subclades to appear every now and then on the uniparental front.

I disagree. Behar showed it to be a MENA-originated R variant (rare, but do exist), meaning that the Iraqi Jew could easily have had it from a shared Judaean source with the Syrian and Ashkenazis

hartaisarlag
06-06-2020, 12:50 AM
I disagree. Behar showed it to be a MENA-originated R variant (rare, but do exist), meaning that the Iraqi Jew could easily have had it from a shared Judaean source with the Syrian and Ashkenazis

Respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about. Please seem my comprehensive thread on major Ashkenazi Y-lineages.

Yes, R1a-Y2619 is unquestionably of Middle Eastern origin, as are several major Ashkenazi R1b branches. But look at at the phylogeny here: https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y2619/. The Iraqi Jew, ERS1789562, is in a deep downstream clade with several Ashkenazim—they share an ancestor circa 375 years ago! Similar story for Turkish and Algerian Jews reported by Behar. Unlike most of the other major Ashkenazi Y-DNA branches, R-Y2619 doesn't (yet) show evidence of an upper-level connection to other Jewish communities. This is a case of Ashkenazi > Iraqi introgression.

This is why understanding the structure of a branch is so important. Often, it reveals an early split between Ashkenazi and Sephardi (or Mizrahi) sub-branches. But sometimes, what shows up is a later introgression from one Jewish community into another.

jkotl0327
06-06-2020, 01:05 AM
Respectfully, you have no idea what you're talking about. Please seem my comprehensive thread on major Ashkenazi Y-lineages.

Yes, R1a-Y2619 is unquestionably of Middle Eastern origin, as are several major Ashkenazi R1b branches. But look at at the phylogeny here: https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y2619/. The Iraqi Jew, ERS1789562, is in a deep downstream clade with several Ashkenazim—they share an ancestor circa 375 years ago! Similar story for Turkish and Algerian Jews reported by Behar. Unlike most of the other major Ashkenazi Y-DNA branches, R-Y2619 doesn't (yet) show evidence of an upper-level connection to other Jewish communities. This is a case of Ashkenazi > Iraqi introgression.

This is why understanding the structure of a branch is so important. Often, it reveals an early split between Ashkenazi and Sephardi (or Mizrahi) sub-branches. But sometimes, what shows up is a later introgression from one Jewish community into another.

I see what you're saying, but I would say this is an extremely rare case. When Mizrahim and Ashkenazim share haplogroups it usually reflects pre-exillic origin, because only a very small number of Jews travelled between Europe and Iraq during the last 500 years. That is why I defaulted to this logic. The Mizrahim and Pashtuns with K1a1b1a mentioned earlier though do not share a sub-group that formed so recently, to the best of my knowledge.

hartaisarlag
06-06-2020, 01:23 AM
I see what you're saying, but I would say this is an extremely rare case. When Mizrahim and Ashkenazim share haplogroups it usually reflects pre-exillic origin, because only a very small number of Jews travelled between Europe and Iraq during the last 500 years. That is why I defaulted to this logic. The Mizrahim and Pashtuns with K1a1b1a mentioned earlier though do not share a sub-group that formed so recently, to the best of my knowledge.

It all depends on the phylogeny. To be fair, mtDNA haplogroup phylogeny is much less well-described than Y-DNA haplogroup phylogeny.

We know of migrations like these for several of the largest Ashkenazi branches. On the other hand, there's only 1 Y-chromosome lineage (others could speak better about mtDNA) I know of that reflects common pre-exilic ancestry for Ashkenazim and Mizrahim—J-Y3088, and at multiple layers, to boot. R-FGC13211, one other small-medium Ashkenazi branch, based on its context and TMRCA date, is clearly of Mizrahi origin (perhaps only slightly earlier than the R-Y2619 introgression into Iraq). Any other connections are for branches outside the top 50 best-represented among Ashkenazim.

There are some other connections that could be hypothesized, but very few Jewish phylogenies evidence common Ashkenazi—Mizrahi origins. Not that I don't think we'll find them! On the other hand, the evidence for Ashkenazi-Sephardi divergences between the years 0 and 1000 is more plentiful than most people suppose.

jkotl0327
06-06-2020, 04:09 AM
It all depends on the phylogeny. To be fair, mtDNA haplogroup phylogeny is much less well-described than Y-DNA haplogroup phylogeny.

We know of migrations like these for several of the largest Ashkenazi branches. On the other hand, there's only 1 Y-chromosome lineage (others could speak better about mtDNA) I know of that reflects common pre-exilic ancestry for Ashkenazim and Mizrahim—J-Y3088, and at multiple layers, to boot. R-FGC13211, one other small-medium Ashkenazi branch, based on its context and TMRCA date, is clearly of Mizrahi origin (perhaps only slightly earlier than the R-Y2619 introgression into Iraq). Any other connections are for branches outside the top 50 best-represented among Ashkenazim.

There are some other connections that could be hypothesized, but very few Jewish phylogenies evidence common Ashkenazi—Mizrahi origins. Not that I don't think we'll find them! On the other hand, the evidence for Ashkenazi-Sephardi divergences between the years 0 and 1000 is more plentiful than most people suppose.

I haven't read much about this to be honest. I only recently learned on this forum that my own y-dna haplogroup, which is about 4000 years old, is shared between Ashkenazim and Mizrahim. Take something like E-L29 (E1b1b1b2a1a1) that is relatively common in Ashkenazim. Do you really think that E-L29 is nonexistent among Mizrahim? I highly doubt it. Like you said, there were many post-exilic divergences in y-dna, meaning that many Ashkenazim and Mizrahim may be part of the same clade, but separable into sub-clades downstream. Those should count as shared Y-chromosome lineages as well. That is why I disagree with your statement that "there's only 1 Y-chromosome lineage that reflects common pre-exilic ancestry."

hartaisarlag
06-06-2020, 04:42 AM
I haven't read much about this to be honest. I only recently learned on this forum that my own y-dna haplogroup, which is about 4000 years old, is shared between Ashkenazim and Mizrahim. Take something like E-L29 (E1b1b1b2a1a1) that is relatively common in Ashkenazim. Do you really think that E-L29 is nonexistent among Mizrahim? I highly doubt it. Like you said, there were many post-exilic divergences in y-dna, meaning that many Ashkenazim and Mizrahim may be part of the same clade, but separable into sub-clades downstream. Those should count as shared Y-chromosome lineages as well. That is why I disagree with your statement that "there's only 1 Y-chromosome lineage that reflects common pre-exilic ancestry."

I apologize for being kind of a prick before.

Here's the thing: your haplogroup, when looked at at a 3,900-year-old level, also contains Saudis, Armenians, Bulgarians, Turks, and Englishmen. I don't know of any evidence that the Ashkenazim and Mizrahim in it are especially closely connected, relative to members of those other groups. That is to say, if the Ashkenazi branch in it and the Mizrahi one (which is new to me) only share a common ancestor 3,900 years ago, there are a few different ways to read it (this is different from the case of R2a-FGC13184, where an Ashkenazi group and a Mizrahi group share an ancestor about 1,150 years ago). But the way you're reading it, all those non-Jews in the group would have to be of Jewish descent too. We have no particular reason to assume that.

Regarding E-L29/E-M84, all men in this haplogroup share an ancestor 7,700 years ago. There are several Jewish branches under it, Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi—that's because E-M84 originated in the Neolithic Levant, and a diverse set of its branches was probably baked into the original Canaanite/Israelite cake. But >75% of all Ashkenazim in E-M84 are in the 1,200-year-old branch E-Y14891. It is very clearly of Near Eastern, and probably Israelite origin, but so far, we've found no close Sephardi or Mizrahi connections to it. In fact, it has no proven connections to *any* branches in any group of people, more recent than 7,700 years ago. So yes, it's true that there are Ashkenazim, Sepahrdim, and Mizrahim under E-L29/E-M84, but for the most part, their phylogenetic connections are no more recent than the Neolithic era. That's very different from a clear proof of those two branches sharing common pre-exilic Jewish ancestry. But yes, they broadly came out of the same gene pool.

And I should correct myself re: lineages reflecting common pre-exilic ancestry. Until recently, J-Y3088 was the *only* Jewish Y-chromosome haplogroup with a TMRCA before the Christian year 0, with representation in a number of different Jewish communities. In fact, its sub-branches, which share a common ancestor ca. 900 BCE (most of them share a common ancestor ca. 800 BCE), are found in every corner of the Jewish world. Now there's a new addition. E-BY8508, under E-V12, represents a 2,600-year-old split between a Bukharan Jew on one hand, and a cluster of Spaniards and Turkish/Syrian Sephardim, on the other. This is pretty awesome. But nowhere else do we have proof like this.

I'm sure we'll find more cases, and hope we will—and even if we don't, I am not calling major common ancestry into doubt. But I'm telling you that from a precise, structural standpoint, Y-haplogroups need to be looked at under a microscope. All men with J2 share an ancestor ... 27,000 years ago. To say someone is "J2", or to note J2's presence in two different populations, means not that much. Jews in different communities, on different branches of J2, cannot be said to share Y-chromosomal "pre-exilic ancestry", unless the period you're referring to is the exile from J2's primordial Paleolithic homeland somewhere in the vicinity of the Caucasus. To the extent that it's possible, we need to work with details: structure and date estimates. http://jewishdna.net/ is a great place to start; its descriptions of the branches are a bit outdated, but the catalogue of branches is superb, and in most cases where they can, they link to the branch's specific position on YFull's tree.

grumpydaddybear
06-06-2020, 04:50 AM
We know of migrations like these for several of the largest Ashkenazi branches. On the other hand, there's only 1 Y-chromosome lineage (others could speak better about mtDNA) I know of that reflects common pre-exilic ancestry for Ashkenazim and Mizrahim—J-Y3088, and at multiple layers, to boot. .

What about T- PF4074 ? I believe that you told me about the Iraqi Jew in that branch with a number of Ashkenazim (including me)? Are you looking for more members?

hartaisarlag
06-06-2020, 05:03 AM
What about T- PF4074 ? I believe that you told me about the Iraqi Jew in that branch with a number of Ashkenazim (including me)? Are you looking for more members?

It's hard to draw clear lines. This might count. In this case, though, the Iraqi Jew clusters together with a Lebanese person (yet, still pretty distantly: TMRCA ca. 1600 BCE), to the exclusion of the Ashkenazim. The common ancestor of the two branches is also estimated at 1600 BCE—but this is probably a bit flimsy. I think it's safe to say the branch had a Canaanite MRCA, but the date is too early, plus the structural connection between Ashkenazim and Mizrahim is not simple enough, to justify a common Israelite/Jewish origin.

jkotl0327
06-06-2020, 05:37 AM
I apologize for being kind of a prick before.

Here's the thing: your haplogroup, when looked at at a 3,900-year-old level, also contains Saudis, Armenians, Bulgarians, Turks, and Englishmen. I don't know of any evidence that the Ashkenazim and Mizrahim in it are especially closely connected, relative to members of those other groups. That is to say, if the Ashkenazi branch in it and the Mizrahi one (which is new to me) only share a common ancestor 3,900 years ago, there are a few different ways to read it (this is different from the case of R2a-FGC13184, where an Ashkenazi group and a Mizrahi group share an ancestor about 1,150 years ago). But the way you're reading it, all those non-Jews in the group would have to be of Jewish descent too. We have no particular reason to assume that.


Regarding E-L29/E-M84, all men in this haplogroup share an ancestor 7,700 years ago. There are several Jewish branches under it, Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi—that's because E-M84 originated in the Neolithic Levant, and a diverse set of its branches was probably baked into the original Canaanite/Israelite cake. But >75% of all Ashkenazim in E-M84 are in the 1,200-year-old branch E-Y14891. It is very clearly of Near Eastern, and probably Israelite origin, but so far, we've found no close Sephardi or Mizrahi connections to it. In fact, it has no proven connections to *any* branches in any group of people, more recent than 7,700 years ago. So yes, it's true that there are Ashkenazim, Sepahrdim, and Mizrahim under E-L29/E-M84, but for the most part, their phylogenetic connections are no more recent than the Neolithic era. That's very different from a clear proof of those two branches sharing common pre-exilic Jewish ancestry. But yes, they broadly came out of the same gene pool.

And I should correct myself re: lineages reflecting common pre-exilic ancestry. Until recently, J-Y3088 was the *only* Jewish Y-chromosome haplogroup with a TMRCA before the Christian year 0, with representation in a number of different Jewish communities. In fact, its sub-branches, which share a common ancestor ca. 900 BCE (most of them share a common ancestor ca. 800 BCE), are found in every corner of the Jewish world. Now there's a new addition. E-BY8508, under E-V12, represents a 2,600-year-old split between a Bukharan Jew on one hand, and a cluster of Spaniards and Turkish/Syrian Sephardim, on the other. This is pretty awesome. But nowhere else do we have proof like this.

I'm sure we'll find more cases, and hope we will—and even if we don't, I am not calling major common ancestry into doubt. But I'm telling you that from a precise, structural standpoint, Y-haplogroups need to be looked at under a microscope. All men with J2 share an ancestor ... 27,000 years ago. To say someone is "J2", or to note J2's presence in two different populations, means not that much. Jews in different communities, on different branches of J2, cannot be said to share Y-chromosomal "pre-exilic ancestry", unless the period you're referring to is the exile from J2's primordial Paleolithic homeland somewhere in the vicinity of the Caucasus. To the extent that it's possible, we need to work with details: structure and date estimates. http://jewishdna.net/ is a great place to start; its descriptions of the branches are a bit outdated, but the catalogue of branches is superb, and in most cases where they can, they link to the branch's specific position on YFull's tree.

No worries :)
I-Z26381 seems to be popular in the Caucuses area mostly due to several royal families of a common origin spreading it around, and the founding legend of this family is that they descend from Jews who converted to Armenian Christianity, which is confirmed by contemporary Syrian historians, although this is still definitely a legend. If that were true however, then I would theorize that the non-Jews in the group are of Jewish descent (except the English?). But to the E-L29 example, that Ashkenazi subgroup only originated in the exile, meaning that people with this E-Y14891 had Iron Age ancestors belonging only to the broader E-L29 (or some broader subgroup of E-L29). The same goes for the Mizrahim, who I assume also belong to an E-L29 subgroup that originated after the exile. The overwhelming probability is that all of these Jewish subgroups share a common Israelite ancestry, although until you sample enough Iron Age Israelite DNA that you find an ancestral clade of E-L29 that incorporates all these other Jewish subclades, you won't be able to say that for sure. I think it is safe to say that when Ashkenazim and Mizrahim belong to the same broader haplogroup (like E-L29) but different post-exilic subclades, that they share a common Israelite origin. Playing devil's advocate, I guess we don't know for sure if the Mizrahi is Israelite (could be other MENA), but >95% of Ashkenazi MENA ancestry is probably Israelite, so based on that I would assume a common Israelite origin.

Also, Stillwater has recently brought to my attention that Bukharian and Mountain Jews share I-Z26381.

StillWater
06-06-2020, 12:05 PM
Also, Stillwater has recently brought to my attention that Bukharian and Mountain Jews share I-Z26381.

Thought StillWater told you that it belonged to a Soviet Mizrachi and couldn't discern which one.

Papapa
06-07-2020, 12:01 AM
I've recently read this article (https://esefarad.com/?p=83491) which suggests that my mother's R0a2m mt-haplogroup was brought to Eastern Europe by a Sefardic woman. Is there any legitimacy to it? I can barely find any information about R0a2 tbh, it seems to be not that common.

jkotl0327
06-07-2020, 12:34 AM
Thought StillWater told you that it belonged to a Soviet Mizrachi and couldn't discern which one.

Sorry, I misunderstood because you were talking about these groups at the beginning.

hartaisarlag
06-07-2020, 04:21 PM
No worries :)
I-Z26381 seems to be popular in the Caucuses area mostly due to several royal families of a common origin spreading it around, and the founding legend of this family is that they descend from Jews who converted to Armenian Christianity, which is confirmed by contemporary Syrian historians, although this is still definitely a legend. If that were true however, then I would theorize that the non-Jews in the group are of Jewish descent (except the English?). But to the E-L29 example, that Ashkenazi subgroup only originated in the exile, meaning that people with this E-Y14891 had Iron Age ancestors belonging only to the broader E-L29 (or some broader subgroup of E-L29). The same goes for the Mizrahim, who I assume also belong to an E-L29 subgroup that originated after the exile. The overwhelming probability is that all of these Jewish subgroups share a common Israelite ancestry, although until you sample enough Iron Age Israelite DNA that you find an ancestral clade of E-L29 that incorporates all these other Jewish subclades, you won't be able to say that for sure. I think it is safe to say that when Ashkenazim and Mizrahim belong to the same broader haplogroup (like E-L29) but different post-exilic subclades, that they share a common Israelite origin. Playing devil's advocate, I guess we don't know for sure if the Mizrahi is Israelite (could be other MENA), but >95% of Ashkenazi MENA ancestry is probably Israelite, so based on that I would assume a common Israelite origin.

Also, Stillwater has recently brought to my attention that Bukharian and Mountain Jews share I-Z26381.

We know more than you think we know!

Look, E-M84 has been in Israel during the Chalcolithic period; its ancestral roots in the region probably go back to the Natufians. There is little doubt that there were *multiple* lines of E-M84 in the pre-classical and classical Judaean population which seeded both Western and Eastern Jewry. But in most known cases, these lines diverged thousands of years before the genesis of Israelite/Jewish peoplehood.

As I said before, E-Y14891 is separated by *7,700 years* from its nearest sister-branches, which have been confirmed in Palestinians, Cypriots, and Gulf Arabs. I am not doubting the Israelite origin of this branch, but I'm telling you, it has no known post-Neolithic connections to the Mizrahim of E-M84.

Some other Jewish branches of E-M84:

- E-Y60961 > E-Y62418 has 2 Sephardic branches, related within the last 3,000 years. They have no other known Jewish connections within the last 7,700 years.
- E-Y6720 > E-BY11014 seems to contain both a Tunisian Jew and Ashkenazim (as well as Saudis, strangely), related within the last 1,300 years. They have no other known Jewish connections within the last 6,000 years.
- E-Y6720 > E-PF6747 > E-Y16780 > E-Z21429 > E-FGC32460 is, to my knowledge, the second-largest Ashkenazi branch of E-M84. It has no other known Jewish connections within the last 5,300 years.
- E-Y6720 > E-PF6747 > E-Y16780 > E-Y18353 > E-Y130334 contains a Mountain Jew (a forum member). It has no other known Jewish connections within the last 5,300 years. It has much closer known Armenian and Arab connections.
- E-Y5436 > E-FGC18401 > E-FGC18369 contains several small Ashkenazi and Mizrahi branches, which share an ancestor within the last 3,400 years—but here's the kicker: the vast majority of branch members are non-Jewish Middle Easterners and Europeans.

Do you see what I mean? "Jewish E-M84" is extremely diverse, and probably originates in many different patrilineally unrelated individuals in Ancient Israel (and very possibly, some non-Israelites). While it is possible and even likely that there are lots of non-Ashkenazi E-M84s who haven't been tested for downstream branches, who might change this picture, so far, I can tell you that the state of the evidence is that the largest Ashkenazi E-M84 doesn't have Mizrahi relatives any more recent than the Late Neolithic. All that can be said about "Jewish E-M84" in the aggregate is that it has a common ancestor somewhere in or around modern-day Israel, circa 7,700 years ago.

AbdoNumen
06-08-2020, 04:02 PM
Also, Stillwater has recently brought to my attention that Bukharian and Mountain Jews share I-Z26381.

What's the source for the Mountain Jewish I-Z26381?


We know more than you think we know!
....
- E-Y6720 > E-PF6747 > E-Y16780 > E-Y18353 > E-Y130334 contains a Mountain Jew (a forum member). It has no other known Jewish connections within the last 5,300 years. It has much closer known Armenian and Arab connections.


E-Y130334 share a common ancestor with Ashkenazi Jews (E-BY188881) at the E-Z21421 node (~4,300ybp). Very ancient, but still a millennia younger than you stated.

jkotl0327
06-08-2020, 04:45 PM
What's the source for the Mountain Jewish I-Z26381?



E-Y130334 share a common ancestor with Ashkenazi Jews (E-BY188881) at the E-Z21421 node (~4,300ybp). Very ancient, but still a millennia younger than you stated.

Stillwater corrected me in saying that he could not concretely identify that it was a Mountain Jew, just a Soviet Mizrachi.

hartaisarlag
06-08-2020, 05:25 PM
What's the source for the Mountain Jewish I-Z26381?



E-Y130334 share a common ancestor with Ashkenazi Jews (E-BY188881) at the E-Z21421 node (~4,300ybp). Very ancient, but still a millennia younger than you stated.

Ah, I should have figured that Ukrainian flag was Jewish. Very good to know. Again, common ancestor was very probably Levantine, but pre-Israelite by >1,000 years.

jkotl0327
06-08-2020, 10:20 PM
Ah, I should have figured that Ukrainian flag was Jewish. Very good to know. Again, common ancestor was very probably Levantine, but pre-Israelite by >1,000 years.

You mean my Ukrainian flag?

hartaisarlag
06-09-2020, 12:26 AM
You mean my Ukrainian flag?

No, a Ukrainian flag under E-Z21421.

jkotl0327
06-09-2020, 12:50 AM
No, a Ukrainian flag under E-Z21421.

They just put Jews with the recent country of origin? I don't understand what the point of that is it's just confusing.

hartaisarlag
06-09-2020, 01:56 AM
They just put Jews with the recent country of origin? I don't understand what the point of that is it's just confusing.

It's not a great arrangement. That said, just a star of David or Israeli flag would paper over a lot of meaningful information. Usually, you just know that if there's a big cluster of Eastern European flags in a generally Middle Eastern or Mediterranean branch, between 500 and 2,000 years old, they're Ashkenazi. Either way, jewishdna.net is a great guide to exploring them.