PDA

View Full Version : What was the amount of the genetic input of Arabs in North Africa?



kikkk
10-13-2016, 02:51 PM
I usually get Tunisian+Egyptian/Bedouin/Palestinian/North African Jew for my Tunisian half on my 4-population-oracles but that's due, IMO, to the fact that the Tunisian sample used by Gedmatch calcs is of isolated and endogamous Tunisian Berbers from southern mountainous Tunisia (villages of Chenini and Douiret).
The recent Cherni 2016 has a PCA plot map (although with few SNPs) that show that Tunisians from Chenini and Douiret form a cluster that is a bit distant from other Tunisians.
I think if the Gedmatch calcs would include a more representative Tunisian sample, I would score Tunisian+Tunisian for my Tunisian half on 4-population-oracles.
https://s9.postimg.org/k3udug2kv/screencapture_file_C_Users_user_Downloads_Cherni.p ng
Herein a map showing the location of the Tunisian samples used by Cherni 2016:

http://i67.tinypic.com/wbz5o9.png
And herein the location of the Berber villages of Chenini and Douiret:
http://www.destinationdahar.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Carte-Sud-Tunisie-2-zoning-1024x724.jpg
http://www.tunisia-off-beaten-track.com/images/berber%20villages.png
And according to this study (which is another Cherni 2016 study):


https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304323399_The_Orientalisation_of_North_Africa_New_ hints_from_the_study_of_autosomal_STRs_in_an_Arab_ population

We have examined 113 Tunisians of well-known Arabian origin from Kairouan region, using 15 autosomal Short Tandem Repeats (STRs) loci. Results: No deviations from Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium were observed, and all loci presented high levels of heterozygosity. Principal coordinate and STRUCTURE analyses were consistent in clustering together North African and Middle Eastern populations, likely reflecting the recent gene flow from the East dating back to the Arab conquest period
http://i67.tinypic.com/29qia6b.jpg


On light of all that, should we think that the supposed West Asian shift of Eastern Tunisians vis-a-vis Tunisian berbers is due to historical Arab migration into North Africa? (or maybe Phoenician migration?)

kikkk
10-13-2016, 02:57 PM
I think that in order to definitely settle down this question we need to compare the autosome of a pre-Arab ancient Tunisian with contemporary Tunisians' ones.
Also, I fancy an "Arab calculator" by the expert Kurd :angel: , as that would be very enlightening, I think.

Herein the 2 Cherni 2016 papers


2 (not that) new papers about Tunisia.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304323399_The_Orientalisation_of_North_Africa_New_ hints_from_the_study_of_autosomal_STRs_in_an_Arab_ population
Abstract

Background: Recent genomic analyses suggest that the current North African gene pool was mainly influenced by population flow coming from the East that altered the genetic structure of autochthonous Berber populations. Such genetic flow has not been extensively addressed yet using North African populations of Middle-eastern origin as reference. Aim: To discern the Middle-eastern component in the genetic background of Tunisian Arabs, and evaluate the extent of gene flow from the Middle East into North African autochthonous Berber populations. Subjects and methods: We have examined 113 Tunisians of well-known Arabian origin from Kairouan region, using 15 autosomal Short Tandem Repeats (STRs) loci. Results: No deviations from Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium were observed, and all loci presented high levels of heterozygosity. Principal coordinate and STRUCTURE analyses were consistent in clustering together North African and Middle Eastern populations, likely reflecting the recent gene flow from the East dating back to the Arab conquest period. This demographic migration and the Arabisation process that submerged the original Berber language and customs seems to have be accompanied by substantial gene flow and genetic admixture. Conclusion: This study represents an additional step to obtain a comprehensive understanding of the complex demographic history of North African populations.



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303356836_Genetic_variation_in_Tunisia_in_the_cont ext_of_human_diversity_worldwide_NORTH_AFRICA-DISTINCT_GENETIC_REGION
Abstract

Objectives: North Africa has a complex demographic history of migrations from within Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. However, population genetic studies, especially for autosomal genetic markers, are few relative to other world regions. We examined autosomal markers for eight Tunisian and Libyan populations in order to place them in a global context. Materials and methods: Data were collected by TaqMan on 399 autosomal single nucleotide polymorphisms on 331 individuals from Tunisia and Libya. These data were combined with data on the same SNPs previously typed on 2585 individuals from 57 populations from around the world. Where meaningful, close by SNPs were combined into multiallelic haplotypes. Data were evaluated by clustering, principal components, and population tree analyses. For a subset of 102 SNPs, data from the literature on seven additional North African populations were included in analyses. Results: Average heterozygosity of the North African populations is high relative to our global samples, consistent with a complex demographic history. The Tunisian and Libyan samples form a discrete cluster in the global and regional views and can be separated from sub-Sahara, Middle East, and Europe. Within Tunisia the Nebeur and Smar are outlier groups. Across North Africa, pervasive East-West geographical patterns were not found. Discussion: Known historical migrations and invasions did not displace or homogenize the genetic variation in the region but rather enriched it. Even a small region like Tunisia contains considerable genetic diversity. Future studies across North Africa have the potential to increase our understanding of the historical demographic factors influencing the region. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2016. © 2016 The Authors American Journal of Physical Anthropology Published by Wiley Periodicals, Inc.

Mamun
11-15-2016, 10:23 PM
Thank you for your post,

But I think that there is something that must be taking into account. Tunisia is divided, by historians, in two parts : on top of a drawn line between Tabarka and Sousse, is the Arabo-andalusian region (particularly around the cities of Bizerta, Tunis, Nabeul and Tastur). On the bottom of this same line, is the region called Arabo-Berbere region.

The Andalusian that came to Tunisia between the 13th and 17th centuries are from different origin : Arabs, Berbers, Muwallad (ancient converts from Wisigothical or latin background), Slavs, Subsaharan, and other europeans...

Plus during, Ottoman period, other slavs, albanians, turkic, undoubtedly some persian, caucasian, greec and the Renegats (from all across Europe people came to be corsair and some found even dynasties like the Mouradit dynasty-wichh were Corses).

All that to say...good luck to figure things out...lol.

Cinnamon orange
11-16-2016, 12:39 PM
I agree with Mamum. As well as Corsiars of foreign origin, there were slaves from the general Ottoman slave trade, as well as captives from the raids of the Corsairs. I would think the coast was the most mixed, foreigners both free and slave would be more predominant, plus Andalusian refugees.

I get a small amount of North African on 23andme as well as Middle Eastern. I have a bit of of southern Italian ancestry from my Arbereshe side. I am not sure how accurate the North African is, as they use Palestinians for example, as part of the reference sample.

On Ancestry, I get four percent each, Caucuses and Middle East.

I was in Tunisia a few years ago. Lovely country and warm people. I spent most of my time visiting the amazing architectural treasures that dot the country. Would love to go back someday if possible.

Ignis90
11-16-2016, 02:02 PM
15 autosomal Short Tandem Repeats (STRs) loci


90 markers, 81 single SNPs, 9 haplotypes


That's like they're still in the prehistory of human population genetics, like over 10 years ago. Or they don't have the funding. No matter the reason, these studies are completely useless at this day and age.

Anyway, as someone already said in this thread, pre-Arab North African ancient DNA samples are needed to quantify any genetic influence from the Middle East and elsewhere in the region.

Right now, we can only speculate based on how most Maghrebis cluster in global analyses as well as in intra-West Eurasian diversity. If someone deviates enough from the bulk of modern Maghrebis, then there is very likely some recent foreign ancestry. More ancient foreign influences might not be visible as it is more diluted and we don't know what the local variation pre-islam in the Maghreb was like. Although I'm expecting that by the time of the Phoenician era and civilization in the region, it was already pretty homogeneous based on the frequency and domination of E-M81 in almost all NW Africans populations.
Using ADMIXTURE, significant increase in ANE-like and Iranian neolithic + CHG might be good signs of recent Near Eastern ancestry.

Tsakhur
11-16-2016, 05:08 PM
Right now, we can only speculate based on how most Maghrebis cluster in global analyses as well as in intra-West Eurasian diversity.
Using ADMIXTURE, significant increase in ANE-like and Iranian neolithic + CHG might be good signs of recent Near Eastern ancestry.

I notice that Maghrebis are often between 14~15-25% or more African so around 75-85~86% West Eurasian genetically.

Would Libyans and certain Tunisians have the most Iran Neolithic+CHG on average in ADMIXTURE?

Ignis90
11-18-2016, 03:15 PM
Would Libyans and certain Tunisians have the most Iran Neolithic+CHG on average in ADMIXTURE?

There are two main types of Libyans, one typical NW African and the other more Egyptian-like. I'm guessing the latter is a quite recent arrival and is geographically restricted. Others might also very likely have various European, Caucasian and Near Eastern/Arabian ancestry. So not all Libyans would fit your statement. More samples are needed.

Tsakhur
11-18-2016, 09:15 PM
There are two main types of Libyans, one typical NW African and the other more Egyptian-like. I'm guessing the latter is a quite recent arrival and is geographically restricted. Others might also very likely have various European, Caucasian and Near Eastern/Arabian ancestry. So not all Libyans would fit your statement. More samples are needed.

Thank you for correcting me on that. Are the Egyptian-like type of Libyans geographically restricted only to Eastern regions like Cyrenaica? Have you seen any results of Siwa Berbers from Egypt, Tuaregs and Mauritanians? Do you know how much African are they? Also do NW Africans have Iran Neolithic+CHG even in very minor amounts in ADMIXTURE?

Ignis90
11-23-2016, 04:39 PM
Thank you for correcting me on that. Are the Egyptian-like type of Libyans geographically restricted only to Eastern regions like Cyrenaica? Have you seen any results of Siwa Berbers from Egypt, Tuaregs and Mauritanians? Do you know how much African are they? Also do NW Africans have Iran Neolithic+CHG even in very minor amounts in ADMIXTURE?

I have no idea about where the Egyptian-like ones are although one would logically assume they are from Cyrenaica. As for Siwa "berbers", there is to my knowledge no decent autosomal DNA available about them. But based on their uniparental profiles (both paternal and maternal) - especially the almost absence of E-M81 - plus their appearance which is drastically different from Maghrebis (and more Nubian-looking). they are very likely not Berber-like nor Egyptian-like altogether. And as I said elsewhere, Siwa "Bedouins" are ironically probably more Berber based on they're appearance and the arabic dialect they speak (Libyan arabic, thus Maghrebi arabic).

Don't know about Mauritanians and Tuaregs but they are very likely to be like other more northern oasis-based communities: a heterogeneous group of people that ranges from typical North African to pure West African and anything inbetween.

As for the last question, yes, all seem to score small amounts of Neolithic Iran and/or CHG.

vettor
11-23-2016, 05:44 PM
In regards to Libya

The Berber people were the earliest recorded inhabitants of Cyrenaica, and most modern Cyrenaicans are considered to be Berber in origin. Remnants of the ancient Berber language spoken by their ancestors are still found in the Awjila-Berber language of the Awjila oasis. The ancient Berbers founded a number of cities and settlements, both on the coast and in the inland oasis.

-Cyrenaica is where benghazi is today and as far as Egypt

-Berbers are not Arabs

So, if ancient studies show us that Morocco, Algeria, parts of Tunisia and eastern Libya are foundered by Berbers, then the bulk of North-Africa would be Berber people and not Arab.
the other parts of Tunisia and libya are known Phoenician areas.......

The arabs arrived in north africa after ~600AD

kikkk
05-08-2017, 07:39 PM
The Tunisian samples used by various gedmatch calculators suffer from the fact that they are not very representative of the general Tunisian population as AFAIK they`re based on a genetic studies of highly endogamous and drifted berberophone Tunisians from the tiny village of Douiret in Southern Tunisia, so most Tunisians end up as 50% Tunisian + 50% North-African Jew\Egyptian\Bedouin on the 2 population oracles.
I managed to collect the gedmatch kit numbers of 32 Tunisians that are more representative of the general Tunisian population as they descend from various localities from all over the country (especially from the coastline from Tunis to Gabes where do live more than two thirds of Tunisians) and herein their scores as well the 32 Tunisians average on Eurogenes v2 k15/
http://i65.tinypic.com/fwhvkm.jpg

fished
05-08-2017, 09:39 PM
Could you run some of these samples through Eurogenes K36? It would be interesting to see the variation in what they score in the "Arabian" and "Near Eastern" components.

Tsakhur
05-08-2017, 09:48 PM
The Tunisian samples used by various gedmatch calculators suffer from the fact that they are not very representative of the general Tunisian population as AFAIK they`re based on a genetic studies of highly endogamous and drifted berberophone Tunisians from the tiny village of Douiret in Southern Tunisia, so most Tunisians end up as 50% Tunisian + 50% North-African Jew\Egyptian\Bedouin on the 2 population oracles.
I managed to collect the gedmatch kit numbers of 32 Tunisians that are more representative of the general Tunisian population as they descend from various localities from all over the country (especially from the coastline from Tunis to Gabes where do live more than two thirds of Tunisians) and herein their scores as well the 32 Tunisians average on Eurogenes v2 k15/


Haha thanks to me who shared the results!. :biggrin1: :D

How did you find the cities/towns of where these Tunisian results came from? Also among the results that I give you, were there some Algerian and Moroccans?

kikkk
05-08-2017, 10:18 PM
Haha thanks to me who shared the results!. :biggrin1: :D

How did you find the cities/towns of where these Tunisian results came from? Also among the results that I give you, were there some Algerian and Moroccans?

Thank you again Tsakhur:):beerchug:
Yes some of them were Algerians and Moroccans.
I learnt their hometown after contacting them via email or via facebook.

Tsakhur
05-08-2017, 10:25 PM
Thank you again Tsakhur:):beerchug:
Yes some of them were Algerians and Moroccans.
I learnt their hometown after contacting them via email or via facebook.

Haha you welcome! :beerchug::D
Can you also post some Algerian and Moroccan results please?
I see. I think these results are more accurate as they come from all over Tunisia!
Btw, do you notice that some of these results have much lesser amounts of SSA admix while at the same time some of these results can be modelled as half or 1/3 South European? Do you know if some of them have recent foreign admix like South European or Ottoman-related ancestry?

kikkk
05-08-2017, 10:47 PM
Haha you welcome! :beerchug::D
Can you also post some Algerian and Moroccan results please?
I see. I think these results are more accurate as they come from all over Tunisia!
Btw, do you notice that some of these results have much lesser amounts of SSA admix while at the same time some of these results can be modelled as half or 1/3 South European? Do you know if some of them have recent foreign admix like South European or Ottoman-related ancestry?

Ok I will,later, post the results of some of the Algerians and Moroccans.
Yes, there is, for example, one guy from Sousse that can be modelled as half South European, yet he doesnt have substantial European matches.
I was not able to communicate directly with him but got the informations about him being from Sousse, from the administrator of the Tunisian J2-L271 project:
He is one of the 2 tribe-to-be-defined persons on this wikipedia page (the other one has very different results)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J2-L271

kikkk
05-08-2017, 11:05 PM
Could you run some of these samples through Eurogenes K36? It would be interesting to see the variation in what they score in the "Arabian" and "Near Eastern" components.

These are the Eurogenes k36 results of sample #2 (I will ulteriorly post some other results)
Population
Amerindian -
Arabian 8.20
Armenian 2.75
Basque 0.27
Central_African 1.18
Central_Euro -
East_African 1.66
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 0.95
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro -
East_Med 8.90
Eastern_Euro -
Fennoscandian -
French 1.94
Iberian 11.83
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 10.73
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 12.52
North_African 17.94
North_Atlantic 1.04
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea -
Northeast_African 8.55
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African 4.34
West_Caucasian -
West_Med 7.19

Ignis90
05-09-2017, 03:46 AM
Nice job!

Unsurprisingly, I'm most similar to "Siliana Northwest Tunisia" and Southern Tunisia, especially with the lack of West Asian. I think we can already see some minor differences between the "Sahel" (the Tunis to Gabes "coast") on one hand and the rest of the country on the other (Western and Southern Tunisia). Fits to an extent the cultural dichotomy of the more cosmopolitan and city-dwelling Sahel Tunisians versus the more tribal inland.

kikkk
05-14-2017, 08:49 PM
Herein a pca map (courtesy of mr Tolan) based on Eurogenes v2 k15 where I did include some of the Tunisian samples.
The position of the Tunisian from Tebolba is intriguing, however according to him (he became my fb friend) both of his parents are from Tebolba and he did not claim moor or Turkish ancestry.

Tsakhur
05-15-2017, 03:46 AM
Herein a pca map (courtesy of mr Tolan) based on Eurogenes v2 k15 where I did include some of the Tunisian samples.
The position of the Tunisian from Tebolba is intriguing, however according to him (he became my fb friend) both of his parents are from Tebolba and he did not claim moor or Turkish ancestry.https://s2.postimg.org/ohgzskbzt/K15_V4_-_Copie.png

This individual from Tebolba have one of the most intriguing result that I ever seen among North Africans. It interesting that he did not claim any of these ancestries. Is there any recent Jewish or South European settlers like Italians, Sardinians, Sicilians in Tunisia? Maybe his family is of Islamized Jews or South Euros who convert to Islam? Correct me if my assumptions are wrong.

kikkk
05-15-2017, 09:11 AM
This individual from Tebolba have one of the most intriguing result that I ever seen among North Africans. It interesting that he did not claim any of these ancestries. Is there any recent Jewish or South European settlers like Italians, Sardinians, Sicilians in Tunisia? Maybe his family is of Islamized Jews or South Euros who convert to Islam? Correct me if my assumptions are wrong.

I am sorry, I jumbled up the kit number of the guy from Tunis with the one from Tebolba. :\

Tsakhur
05-15-2017, 09:33 AM
I am sorry, I jumbled up the kit number of the guy from Tunis with the one from Tebolba. :\

So it is the guy from Tunis with unique results who cluster close distance to North African Jews?

kikkk
05-15-2017, 09:36 AM
31 Tunisians average based on Eurogenes v2k15 (fixed)
http://i.imgur.com/7v1JsS8.jpg
PCA map
http://i.imgur.com/jt1zwQC.png

Tsakhur
05-15-2017, 09:48 AM
32 Tunisians average on Eurogenes v2k15 (fixed)
https://s9.postimg.org/gxti66mfz/gedmatch_tn_no_kit_no.jpg
PCA map
https://s17.postimg.org/mzlqvh1gv/K15_V4_-_Copie.png

Ok so it is the Tunis individual being closer to North African Jews. Where is the Tunis guy originally from? The data still shows Tunis sample as 8.15% SSA and 9.27% NE African though.

Tsakhur
05-15-2017, 09:49 AM
Double post

kikkk
05-15-2017, 01:01 PM
Ok so it is the Tunis individual being closer to North African Jews. Where is the Tunis guy originally from? The data still shows Tunis sample as 8.15% SSA and 9.27% NE African though.

He is from Tunis but I am still waiting a response to the email I asked him about his background.
Very probably he has an European grandparent as he has some gedmatch European matches above 15cM, and according to his family tree at myheritage.com his grandfather married a French woman.
I think I should remove him from the table if him having 1 European grandparent will be confirmed.(amongst the gedmatch kit numbers you sent to me, there was a guy from Monastir that was clearly 50%European and I removed him as well, I also did not include myself nor the user Darko).

nee4speed111
05-22-2017, 10:57 AM
The Tunisian samples used by various gedmatch calculators suffer from the fact that they are not very representative of the general Tunisian population as AFAIK they`re based on a genetic studies of highly endogamous and drifted berberophone Tunisians from the tiny village of Douiret in Southern Tunisia, so most Tunisians end up as 50% Tunisian + 50% North-African Jew\Egyptian\Bedouin on the 2 population oracles.
I managed to collect the gedmatch kit numbers of 32 Tunisians that are more representative of the general Tunisian population as they descend from various localities from all over the country (especially from the coastline from Tunis to Gabes where do live more than two thirds of Tunisians) and herein their scores as well the 32 Tunisians average on Eurogenes v2 k15/
http://i65.tinypic.com/fwhvkm.jpg

These Tunisians results are very interesting, I created a similar spreadsheet for copts on Eurogenes K15 so I could compare the Tunisians and see how they differ

http://i.imgur.com/5zM9JCf.jpg

technetium
05-22-2017, 04:54 PM
So what is the conclusion? Does not look like they have had a major Arabian input. But this was expectable since it is unlikely that these few Bedouin tribes could switch the genetic make-up of NW Africa. So in the Levant and Mesopotamia the influence of the Arabs is much greater.

lifeisdandy
05-23-2017, 06:58 PM
So what is the conclusion? Does not look like they have had a major Arabian input. But this was expectable since it is unlikely that these few Bedouin tribes could switch the genetic make-up of NW Africa. So in the Levant and Mesopotamia the influence of the Arabs is much greater.
Not really.. egyptians have higher south west asian and arabian levels than modern levantines...

technetium
05-23-2017, 07:50 PM
Not really.. egyptians have higher south west asian and arabian levels than modern levantines...
Since when is Egypt in NW (Northwest) Africa?

lifeisdandy
05-23-2017, 08:11 PM
Since when is Egypt in NW (Northwest) Africa?

oops my bad..didn't read post properly..

fished
05-23-2017, 10:22 PM
So what is the conclusion? Does not look like they have had a major Arabian input. But this was expectable since it is unlikely that these few Bedouin tribes could switch the genetic make-up of NW Africa. So in the Levant and Mesopotamia the influence of the Arabs is much greater.

I'd say the "conclusion" is that some individuals probably have some Arabian admixture while others entirely lack it. Though for coastal Tunisia in particular the issue becomes somewhat clouded by the fact that absorption of Sicilian Muslims, converted Jews, and Turks might pull some individuals eastwards.

technetium
05-24-2017, 07:08 PM
Does anyone have samples from Berkane, Morocco? I want to look for a friend who is from there.

Mamun
06-09-2017, 05:34 PM
A lot of arab tribes moved from arabian peninsula to Mesopotamia, to the Levant, and Egypt at the islamic conquest. Even, in a lesser wave, in Iran, between 630-660. But more lesser than that in North Africa starting from 700AD. That's explain why arab input is rather weak, if not existant at all in some cases in North Africa.

Terminus88
11-25-2017, 10:29 PM
Ethnic Arab Y-DNA lineages are not significant in the Levant.

Squad
01-26-2018, 06:03 PM
Haplogroup J-P58 is very high in North Africa, with Libya and Tunisia showing 25-30% of it and it is almost entirely of the recently expanded arabian brand, in more than 95% of the cases. Algeria has about 15-20% and Morocco 10% or even less, though this time it is very varied between ethnic groups, it is at least thrice more frequent among the Arabs than the Berbers in the case of Morocco. I'd say dividing the J-P58 frequencies by two would result in a good approximation of arabian ancestry in the Maghreb. It was very funny when many people were claiming that J1 in the Maghreb is neolithic or something even though STR data clearly indicated its very recent origin since the very beginning. I guess they couldn't believe that medieval arabian migrations could have influenced the gene pool that much, but looks like they actually did.

Agamemnon
01-26-2018, 08:52 PM
Haplogroup J-P58 is very high in North Africa, with Libya and Tunisia showing 25-30% of it and it is almost entirely of the recently expanded arabian brand, in more than 95% of the cases. Algeria has about 15-20% and Morocco 10% or even less, though this time it is very varied between ethnic groups, it is at least thrice more frequent among the Arabs than the Berbers in the case of Morocco. I'd say dividing the J-P58 frequencies by two would result in a good approximation of arabian ancestry in the Maghreb. It was very funny when many people were claiming that J1 in the Maghreb is neolithic or something even though STR data clearly indicated its very recent origin since the very beginning. I guess they couldn't believe that medieval arabian migrations could have influenced the gene pool that much, but looks like they actually did.

You still find people here and there who try to argue that J1 was in North Africa since the Neolithic period, that's extremely unlikely to be true of course and a cursory glance at the branches of J1 found in North Africa would suffice to understand why.

TuaMan
01-26-2018, 11:34 PM
Haplogroup J-P58 is very high in North Africa, with Libya and Tunisia showing 25-30% of it and it is almost entirely of the recently expanded arabian brand, in more than 95% of the cases. Algeria has about 15-20% and Morocco 10% or even less, though this time it is very varied between ethnic groups, it is at least thrice more frequent among the Arabs than the Berbers in the case of Morocco. I'd say dividing the J-P58 frequencies by two would result in a good approximation of arabian ancestry in the Maghreb. It was very funny when many people were claiming that J1 in the Maghreb is neolithic or something even though STR data clearly indicated its very recent origin since the very beginning. I guess they couldn't believe that medieval arabian migrations could have influenced the gene pool that much, but looks like they actually did.

How common is the Arabian version of J-P58 in modern Egypt?

Agamemnon
01-27-2018, 12:57 AM
How common is the Arabian version of J-P58 in modern Egypt?

Quite common, in fact it might even comprise the vast majority of J1 in Egypt, however this largely depends on whether J1-BY86 (a subclade of YSC76) can be described as Arabian, in terms of distribution and TMRCA estimates it certainly qualifies as such. However, there is some degree of diversity in Egypt, such as J1-L858* among some Copts, my own branch of J1 (ZS241) is also found in Egypt.

J1 is very common in and around Akhmim and Sohag, it's even more common in the Sinai peninsula (and most of it is BY86, in all the places I mentioned).

Squad
01-27-2018, 03:25 AM
Claiming J1 in North Africa, especially in the Maghreb, to be neolithic today in 2018 is extremely retarded, people like that should be banned for uttering such nonsense. And there may be more of them than I thought for I'm actually very surprised that no one brought up the issue about P58 in this very thread. Ever since we had access to Y-STR data from way back in the early 2000s, it was obvious for any unbiased observer that J1 in the Maghreb is very recent for ultimately two reasons : very reduced diversity with many haplotypes being identical AND especially the clearly recent arab affiliation as shown by Y-STR values, for example DYS391 = 11 and DYS388 = 17. Now quite a few years after the SNP revolution, it is unthinkable for anyone to assert a neolithic arrival. Even autosomal DNA is totaly against those claims, as CHG-like ancestry was not previously found in the Maghreb and was brought historically because of its lack today among non coastal people and most importantly its total absence in the Guanches.

So whether people accept it or not, especially more arabian shifted North Africans such as Tunisians and Libyans, the fact remains that a somewhat significant part of their ancestry came recently with the arabic expansions.

Ignis90
01-27-2018, 06:28 AM
Claiming J1 in North Africa, especially in the Maghreb, to be neolithic today in 2018 is extremely retarded, people like that should be banned for uttering such nonsense. And there may be more of them than I thought for I'm actually very surprised that no one brought up the issue about P58 in this very thread. Ever since we had access to Y-STR data from way back in the early 2000s, it was obvious for any unbiased observer that J1 in the Maghreb is very recent for ultimately two reasons : very reduced diversity with many haplotypes being identical AND especially the clearly recent arab affiliation as shown by Y-STR values, for example DYS391 = 11 and DYS388 = 17. Now quite a few years after the SNP revolution, it is unthinkable for anyone to assert a neolithic arrival. Even autosomal DNA is totaly against those claims, as CHG-like ancestry was not previously found in the Maghreb and was brought historically because of its lack today among non coastal people and most importantly its total absence in the Guanches.

So whether people accept it or not, especially more arabian shifted North Africans such as Tunisians and Libyans, the fact remains that a somewhat significant part of their ancestry came recently with the arabic expansions.

Nobody cares about North Africa usually and threads about it are oftentimes not very active so I don't know who are the "people" you're talking about.

What is sure is the Arabian ancestry in the Maghreb is much less than what people expected considering that most Maghrebis are now "Arabs" and identify as such.
From the autosomal results of modern Maghrebis as well as ancient Canarians, it looks like the current profile is mostly pre-islamic. The most Arabian-influenced place in the region is Libya unsurprisingly as it's the easternmost place and was/is much less densely populated than the rest considering its climate and mostly desertic/semi-desertic environment (which Arabians are familiar with). But it is not monolithic as some Libyans are clearly more akin to regular Maghrebis.
I also think that Arabian ancestry is not the only recent ancestry found in the Maghreb. Taking "Sahel" Tunisians as an example, a lot - if not most - seem to have something more European and/or Northern West Asian instead of Arabian.

Squad
01-27-2018, 08:32 AM
In any case, J-P58 clearly shows that arab expansions did affect the gene pool of North Africans. And it's not just Libyans, one Tunisian out of four belongs to a recent arabian variant way downstream of P58. I'm not saying they're ''Arabs'', only that the admixture is real. Like I said, divide the frequencies for J1 and you'll get the regional arab contributions. Based on that, it could be said that Tunisians for example are on average about 12% arab in ancestry while Moroccans would be 5% at most. 12% is not small, it is quite significant actually.

Ignis90
01-27-2018, 11:25 AM
In any case, J-P58 clearly shows that arab expansions did affect the gene pool of North Africans. And it's not just Libyans, one Tunisian out of four belongs to a recent arabian variant way downstream of P58. I'm not saying they're ''Arabs'', only that the admixture is real. Like I said, divide the frequencies for J1 and you'll get the regional arab contributions. Based on that, it could be said that Tunisians for example are on average about 12% arab in ancestry while Moroccans would be 5% at most. 12% is not small, it is quite significant actually.

I don't think it works that way ("dividing by two"), otherwise the average modern Cameroonian would be around 50% Upper Paleolithic Balkanian.

Autosomal dna is the only way to estimate actual Arabian influence (y-dna just gives hints at best), and this Arabian influence doesn't look as universal as you think it is. As I said, Sahel Tunisians seem to have recent European as well as northern West Asian influence, so not necessarily Arabian. Western and Southern Tunisians (inland) on the other hand don't seem to have these influences.
Anyway, we have to wait for pre-islamic aDNA from the Maghreb to know for sure.

mephisto
01-27-2018, 11:51 AM
In any case, J-P58 clearly shows that arab expansions did affect the gene pool of North Africans. And it's not just Libyans, one Tunisian out of four belongs to a recent arabian variant way downstream of P58. I'm not saying they're ''Arabs'', only that the admixture is real. Like I said, divide the frequencies for J1 and you'll get the regional arab contributions. Based on that, it could be said that Tunisians for example are on average about 12% arab in ancestry while Moroccans would be 5% at most. 12% is not small, it is quite significant actually.
You proof ignorance in every single post you make. I cannot take anything of your said serious. How do you want to get any clue about autosomal ancestry with haplogroups (despite the fact that the numbers of your mentioned haplogroups are not even that high in the Arabic speaking Maghreb)? What non-sense is this? History seems also not to be yours which we see in another thread. Every single of your posts has plenty of absurd statements in it, but not even one trustworthy source. As soon as you get confronted with hard facts (and sources) you adjust your statements and act like you always meant that

Shamash
01-27-2018, 01:35 PM
You proof ignorance in every single post you make. I cannot take anything of your said serious. How do you want to get any clue about autosomal ancestry with haplogroups (despite the fact that the numbers of your mentioned haplogroups are not even that high in the Arabic speaking Maghreb)? What non-sense is this? History seems also not to be yours which we see in another thread. Every single of your posts has plenty of absurd statements in it, but not even one trustworthy source. As soon as you get confronted with hard facts (and sources) you adjust your statements and act like you always meant that

IMO Squad's agenda is glass clear and I wouldn't bother too much about his statements. He doesn't seem to be interested in discussions but more obsessed with the idea of imposing his traditional "Arabian" opinions on everybody.

Squad
01-27-2018, 02:21 PM
Lol, did you even read it correctly? I said that by dividing by two the frequencies of P58 in the Maghreb you can approximate the influence of arabian tribes. J-P58's pattern in the Maghreb shows an increase as you move to the East thus would be consistent with historical information, this is a recent phenomenon, therefore the correlation between Y-DNA and autosomes would be higher, this is not some kind of ancient prehistorical founder effect like for R-V88 in Cameroon. No one even confronted me with any hard sources what are you even talking about ? If you have issues about claims I've made on other threads go address them over there so everyone can see who is absurd or else refrain from inventing things such as me adjusting myself or what not. Care to explain yourself on what absurd statement I made ? Oh, and the numbers are not that high, well I guess I should overwhelm you with some studies then, here you go :

Algeria, Oran : Analysis of Y-chromosomal SNP haplogroups and STR haplotypes in an Algerian population sample : 23/102 = 23%
Algeria, Oran : Genetic Heterogeneity in Algerian Human Populations : 18/78 = 23%
Algeria, Arabs : Y chromosomes of self-identified Syeds from the Indian subcontinent show evidence of elevated Arab ancestry but not of a recent common patrilineal origin : 50/164 = 30% haplogroup J1+J2, most of it is J1 no doubt

Libya, Tripoli : Paternal lineages in Libya inferred from Y-chromosome haplogroups : 48/175 = 27%
Libya, general : Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa : 80/215 = 37% !!!, they said 30% in their table, however in the haplotype file, there were 80 j-P58 out of 215 samples so 37%

Tunisia, Sousse : extreme genetic heterogeneity in North Africa : 55/220 = 25%
Tunisia, Tunis : A predominantly neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variation in North Africa : 48/148 = 32.4%
Tunisia, Sfax : Haplotypes for 13 Y-chromosomal STR loci in South Tunisian population (Sfax region) : 19/105 = 18%
Tunisia, North, center and south : Tunisian population data on 10 Y-chromosomal loci : 23/100 = 23%
Italy, Tunisians : Y-chromosome markers distribution in Northern Africa: High-resolution SNP and STR analysis in Tunisia and Morocco populations : 18/52 = 35%
Tunisia, Tunis : Y-chromosomal STR haplotypes in three ethnic groups and one cosmopolitan population from Tunisia : 16/54 = 30%
Tunsia, Andalusian Zaghouan : Y-chromosomal STR haplotypes in three ethnic groups and one cosmopolitan population from Tunisia : 18/132 = 14%

As for Morocco, there are many studies, on average arabic speakers are around 15% J1, the range is from 7% to 20%. I've never seen above 20%. Berbers have less, ranging from 1% to 10% with an average of around 5%. You cannot play these games with me, I know about every haplogroup in North Africa, some that you probably don't even know about their existence or presence.

So is it not enough for you ? You can clearly see for yourself that the numbers are indeed high, sometimes very high even, as you move eastward. In some of these samples, it even exceeds E-M81 !!! Like I said, because it's from recent movements, it has to show up in their overall genetic makeup, there is no doubt about that. The more the Arabs went to west, the more mixed they likely became while still keeping their Y-DNA, so ''dividing by two'' like I said would work better the more east you go. So it is safe to say that Maghrebis derive about 10% of their ancestry from Arabia.

And Mecca is not Macoraba, and was never an important settlement, it's a historical fraud, it's not me saying it, that's just how it is. If you are offended by this claim, direct your anger at the available historical data. If you want to peacefully discuss about this then do so on the appropriate thread or private message if you want.

And I have no agenda, I'm just trying to stay neutral and talk with factual evidence. I am North African myself and I am not an Arab, but unlike most Maghrebis, I cannot deny that we do have a small amount of arabian ancestry. I know it's difficult to accept how come a few medieval migrations can result in this much of an influence, I myself was always puzzled by this fact when I first learned about these.

I am North African but I'm not into nationalism or berber pride or any kind of pride for that matter. I'm just interested in the data the way it presents itself. I'm not afraid to say that the Maghreb has a pathetic Y-DNA composition with no depth to it, E-M81 having a TMRCA of a mere 3000ybp at best. Even if we use slower mutation rates, it cannot be older than 4000ybp. It is even more pathetic that a few medieval arab tribes managed to make up for a fourth of Y-DNA lineages in Libya, Tunisia and even Algeria.

People claiming I got some agenda ? How about people like Passa who've been trying for so long to push their ''Haplogroup E is asian'' thing !? Or Dienekes doubting about Out-of-africa and Polako claiming K2 is central asian (I dont know if his stance changed on that one but last time I checked that was his view, despite being confronted with the extensive basal K2 diversity in SEA, heck even P itself is clearly SEA as shown by P2 in Phillipines) ?! Genetiker and his ''the caucasoid haplogroup E1b1b''. Please, be objective.

Absurd statements, looks who's talking, you said this in my thread about J-P58 : ''It seems like J1 originates from around the Zagros mountains. There was no J1 in the Neolithic Levant.'' Equating J1-M267 with the 10 000 years younger P58 is very clever according to you. Did I say a thing about M267 over there ? That's like saying to someone arguing for a western european coalescence for R-M269 : ''It seems like R1b originates from around Central Asia'', when he is talking about much younger sub-clade M269 !!!

mephisto
01-27-2018, 03:44 PM
Lol, did you even read it correctly? I said that by dividing by two the frequencies of P58 in the Maghreb you can approximate the influence of arabian tribes. J-P58's pattern in the Maghreb shows an increase as you move to the East thus would be consistent with historical information, this is a recent phenomenon, therefore the correlation between Y-DNA and autosomes would be higher, this is not some kind of ancient prehistorical founder effect like for R-V88 in Cameroon. No one even confronted me with any hard sources what are you even talking about ? If you have issues about claims I've made on other threads go address them over there so everyone can see who is absurd or else refrain from inventing things such as me adjusting myself or what not. Care to explain yourself on what absurd statement I made ? Oh, and the numbers are not that high, well I guess I should overwhelm you with some studies then, here you go :

Algeria, Oran : Analysis of Y-chromosomal SNP haplogroups and STR haplotypes in an Algerian population sample : 23/102 = 23%
Algeria, Oran : Genetic Heterogeneity in Algerian Human Populations : 18/78 = 23%
Algeria, Arabs : Y chromosomes of self-identified Syeds from the Indian subcontinent show evidence of elevated Arab ancestry but not of a recent common patrilineal origin : 50/164 = 30% haplogroup J1+J2, most of it is J1 no doubt

Libya, Tripoli : Paternal lineages in Libya inferred from Y-chromosome haplogroups : 48/175 = 27%
Libya, general : Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa : 80/215 = 37% !!!, they said 30% in their table, however in the haplotype file, there were 80 j-P58 out of 215 samples so 37%

Tunisia, Sousse : extreme genetic heterogeneity in North Africa : 55/220 = 25%
Tunisia, Tunis : A predominantly neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variation in North Africa : 48/148 = 32.4%
Tunisia, Sfax : Haplotypes for 13 Y-chromosomal STR loci in South Tunisian population (Sfax region) : 19/105 = 18%
Tunisia, North, center and south : Tunisian population data on 10 Y-chromosomal loci : 23/100 = 23%
Italy, Tunisians : Y-chromosome markers distribution in Northern Africa: High-resolution SNP and STR analysis in Tunisia and Morocco populations : 18/52 = 35%
Tunisia, Tunis : Y-chromosomal STR haplotypes in three ethnic groups and one cosmopolitan population from Tunisia : 16/54 = 30%
Tunsia, Andalusian Zaghouan : Y-chromosomal STR haplotypes in three ethnic groups and one cosmopolitan population from Tunisia : 18/132 = 14%

As for Morocco, there are many studies, on average arabic speakers are around 15% J1, the range is from 7% to 20%. I've never seen above 20%. Berbers have less, ranging from 1% to 10% with an average of around 5%. You cannot play these games with me, I know about every haplogroup in North Africa, some that you probably don't even know about their existence or presence.

So is it not enough for you ? You can clearly see for yourself that the numbers are indeed high, sometimes very high even, as you move eastward. In some of these samples, it even exceeds E-M81 !!! Like I said, because it's from recent movements, it has to show up in their overall genetic makeup, there is no doubt about that. The more the Arabs went to west, the more mixed they likely became while still keeping their Y-DNA, so ''dividing by two'' like I said would work better the more east you go. So it is safe to say that Maghrebis derive about 10% of their ancestry from Arabia.

And Mecca is not Macoraba, and was never an important settlement, it's a historical fraud, it's not me saying it, that's just how it is. If you are offended by this claim, direct your anger at the available historical data. If you want to peacefully discuss about this then do so on the appropriate thread or private message if you want.

And I have no agenda, I'm just trying to stay neutral and talk with factual evidence. I am North African myself and I am not an Arab, but unlike most Maghrebis, I cannot deny that we do have a small amount of arabian ancestry. I know it's difficult to accept how come a few medieval migrations can result in this much of an influence, I myself was always puzzled by this fact when I first learned about these.

I am North African but I'm not into nationalism or berber pride or any kind of pride for that matter. I'm just interested in the data the way it presents itself. I'm not afraid to say that the Maghreb has a pathetic Y-DNA composition with no depth to it, E-M81 having a TMRCA of a mere 3000ybp at best. Even if we use slower mutation rates, it cannot be older than 4000ybp. It is even more pathetic that a few medieval arab tribes managed to make up for a fourth of Y-DNA lineages in Libya, Tunisia and even Algeria.

People claiming I got some agenda ? How about people like Passa who've been trying for so long to push their ''Haplogroup E is asian'' thing !? Or Dienekes doubting about Out-of-africa and Polako claiming K2 is central asian (I dont know if his stance changed on that one but last time I checked that was his view, despite being confronted with the extensive basal K2 diversity in SEA, heck even P itself is clearly SEA as shown by P2 in Phillipines) ?! Genetiker and his ''the caucasoid haplogroup E1b1b''. Please, be objective.
I won’t discuss with you. On another thread you argued about a town which apparently did not exist "prior" to the rise of a specific religion because the town (according to you) was "apparently" not mentioned by any ancient historian. After you were confronted with the Greek Historian Diodorus Siculus (~50BC, there are others like Ammianus Marcellinus (200AD) who mentioned the town) you started to claim that the town was not relevant/important (at the end it was "not drawn onto any ancient map" as you claimed). Such dull argumentation shows me that you have a clear agenda. Also let us assume you are right, then why are you mentioning such a "fact" under a thread which has a completely different topic? Clear proof that you have an agenda and are driven by anger.

To the "statistics", nicely copied from Wikipedia, very up to date and I am convinced now. My last answer in this thread.

Awale
01-27-2018, 03:51 PM
I also think that Arabian ancestry is not the only recent ancestry found in the Maghreb. Taking "Sahel" Tunisians as an example, a lot - if not most - seem to have something more European and/or Northern West Asian instead of Arabian.

I think some shouldn't underestimate the effect groups like the Phoenicians may have left in some areas:

distance%=0.649 / distance=0.00649

Tunisian

Samaritan 42.20
Mozabite 39.25
Saudi 8.30
Mende_Sierra_Leone 7.60
Dinka 2.65

But I am personally of the opinion that anything Zagros-Chalcolithic-related (alongside J1 and J2) in Northwest or Northeast Africa is mainly or entirely owed to Semitic speakers. Arabs, Phoenicians, Southwestern Arabians into the Horn, Asiatics moving into Egypt as early as the 12th to 13th dynasties... Prior to all of this I'd say the West-Eurasian profile in Africa was varying degrees of the Basal-Eurasian+VHG variety, that certainly seemed the case with the Neolithic Maghreb.

Squad
01-27-2018, 04:05 PM
Ok you're being delusional now. Mecca never existed, that's a fact. Macoraba IS NOT Mecca. That's like saying that because there was a settlement in the vicinity of London prior to the foundation of London, then it is London ! What kind of logic is that ?? Mecca as a city with such a name is a recent phenomenon, it was never a major trading hub nor was this location of any importance prior to the Abbasid. Plus, no one confronted me with Diodorus but with Ptolemy, you're making stuff up !!! And I'm also aware about these claims about Diodorus and I can show you the truth about it also if you care, but that's not the right place. I mentioned Mecca because obviously it had to do with that thread, so I came in to say that anybody claiming to be a descendant of Muhammad from Mecca and those kinds of claims is being delusional !! And you are being insulting when confronted with evidence, I didn't copy a single thing from Wikipedia, these are all studies which I knew by myself well before someone posted in wikipedia about north african genetics.

Algeria : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17909833?dopt=Abstracthttp://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0138453, http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0138453, http://www.academia.edu/7161988/Y_chromosomes_of_self-identified_Syeds_from_the_Indian_subcontinent_show _evidence_of_elevated_Arab_ancestry_but_not_of_a_r ecent_common_patrilineal_origin

Tunisia : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1216069/, http://www.bioinfo-cbs.org/avd/en/pmid/str/12927407.pdf, http://www.bioinfo-cbs.org/avd/fr/images/reference%20PMID/str/Tunisie/16293385.pdf, http://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(08)00205-9/fulltext, http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/elps.201200361/abstract, http://www.bioinfo-cbs.org/avd/en/pmid/str/15939181.pdf

Libya : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272186082_Paternal_lineages_in_Libya_inferred_from _Y-chromosome_haplogroups_Paternal_Lineages_in_Libya, http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0080293

Everyone can verify for themselves that all the information I've provided is correct. It has nothing to do with being up to date, or are you expecting Y-DNA frequencies to change in a decade or 2 ?!? Plus some of these studies are in fact up to date ! Most of these studies you won't even find them in wikipedia because they're Y-STR based, I had to identify every haplogroup by myself back then, which is really easy when you know your haplotypes...

vettor
01-27-2018, 04:46 PM
Ok you're being delusional now. Mecca never existed, that's a fact. Macoraba IS NOT Mecca. That's like saying that because there was a settlement in the vicinity of London prior to the foundation of London, then it is London ! What kind of logic is that ?? Mecca as a city with such a name is a recent phenomenon, it was never a major trading hub nor was this location of any importance prior to the Abbasid. Plus, no one confronted me with Diodorus but with Ptolemy, you're making stuff up !!! And I'm also aware about these claims about Diodorus and I can show you the truth about it also if you care, but that's not the right place. I mentioned Mecca because obviously it had to do with that thread, so I came in to say that anybody claiming to be a descendant of Muhammad from Mecca and those kinds of claims is being delusional !! And you are being insulting when confronted with evidence, I didn't copy a single thing from Wikipedia, these are all studies which I knew by myself well before someone posted in wikipedia about north african genetics.

Algeria : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17909833?dopt=Abstracthttp://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0138453, http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0138453, http://www.academia.edu/7161988/Y_chromosomes_of_self-identified_Syeds_from_the_Indian_subcontinent_show _evidence_of_elevated_Arab_ancestry_but_not_of_a_r ecent_common_patrilineal_origin

Tunisia : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1216069/, http://www.bioinfo-cbs.org/avd/en/pmid/str/12927407.pdf, http://www.bioinfo-cbs.org/avd/fr/images/reference%20PMID/str/Tunisie/16293385.pdf, http://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(08)00205-9/fulltext, http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/elps.201200361/abstract, http://www.bioinfo-cbs.org/avd/en/pmid/str/15939181.pdf

Libya : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272186082_Paternal_lineages_in_Libya_inferred_from _Y-chromosome_haplogroups_Paternal_Lineages_in_Libya, http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0080293

Everyone can verify for themselves that all the information I've provided is correct. It has nothing to do with being up to date, or are you expecting Y-DNA frequencies to change in a decade or 2 ?!? Plus some of these studies are in fact up to date ! Most of these studies you won't even find them in wikipedia because they're Y-STR based, I had to identify every haplogroup by myself back then, which is really easy when you know your haplotypes...

I do not know what your goal/aim is here..................history shows no arabs in north africa while the Romans where around ............so is your aim post roman for arabs or for circa 600AD when islam began?
I do not even know when berbers arrived as romans noted numidians, egptians or libyans in north africa instead of berbers...........actually berber culture has been found recently stretching from cyrene ( libya ) to the atlantic ocean.

There needs to be a a definite timespan for admixture tests for north africa

Squad
01-27-2018, 04:51 PM
I never said anything about roman times, that was in response to what was said on another thread about someone claiming descent from Muhammad and stuff like that where I said that Mecca is a fraud and that thus any such claim is baseless.Then this guy came out of the blue and went on to say that I make absurd statements, obviously he was referring to this other thread about Mecca. Looks like he's the one making stuff up because no one mentioned Diodocus in that thread. The arabian admixture we're talking about here is post roman and is a real thing, only deluded people won't understand it...

Squad
01-27-2018, 05:28 PM
Nobody cares about North Africa usually and threads about it are oftentimes not very active so I don't know who are the "people" you're talking about.

What is sure is the Arabian ancestry in the Maghreb is much less than what people expected considering that most Maghrebis are now "Arabs" and identify as such.
From the autosomal results of modern Maghrebis as well as ancient Canarians, it looks like the current profile is mostly pre-islamic. The most Arabian-influenced place in the region is Libya unsurprisingly as it's the easternmost place and was/is much less densely populated than the rest considering its climate and mostly desertic/semi-desertic environment (which Arabians are familiar with). But it is not monolithic as some Libyans are clearly more akin to regular Maghrebis.
I also think that Arabian ancestry is not the only recent ancestry found in the Maghreb. Taking "Sahel" Tunisians as an example, a lot - if not most - seem to have something more European and/or Northern West Asian instead of Arabian.


If anything people on boards like this one have always underestimated the arabian admixture, many even denying it and claiming J1 to be of neolithic arrival, which is laughable. Yes the profile is mostly pre-islamic who said otherwise ? I'm not here to say that North Africans are arabs or something, only to say that the admixture is real and often not negligible, and not only in Libya, Tunisia also has much of it, even Algeria. And yes there are other recent ancestries present in the Maghreb, Phoenicians for example did leave some trace, but that's not the concern of this thread. But the predominant J-P58 variant found in North Africa is of recent arabian extraction, not phoenician and certainly not neolithic. And like I've shown, it is quite frequent, in fact it is because of this significant presence that people couldn't accept it to be so recent. Especially fellow Maghrebis, they didn't want their region to have this kind of pathetic haplogroup history as they wanted more depth to it.

mephisto
01-27-2018, 05:37 PM
I never said anything about roman times, that was in response to what was said on another thread about someone claiming descent from Muhammad and stuff like that where I said that Mecca is a fraud and that thus any such claim is baseless.Then this guy came out of the blue and went on to say that I make absurd statements, obviously he was referring to this other thread about Mecca. Looks like he's the one making stuff up because no one mentioned Diodocus in that thread. The arabian admixture we're talking about here is post roman and is a real thing, only deluded people won't understand it...
So two major Bedouin tribes changed the complete autosomal landscape of North Africa? I am sure if only one tribal of these two tribes would go into every town and village of North Africa (back in time) it would not be enough to have at least one tribal in every town/village of North Africa (just an assumption)? And we are delusional :) The genetics of the natives (I am not speaking about haplogroups here) is from an autosomal standpoint high in Levant Neolithic like ancestry. This is also the case for the natives in countries like Egypt (Ancient Egyptians cluster next to Arabians even though they have 0.00% actual ancestry from the Peninsula). Thus I see the model presented by Awale (I strongly assume the model is based on the Ancient calculator of Eurogenes) as biased. Why? Because both Berbers (or other natives of North Africa like Ancient Egyptians) and Southern Near Easterners score a lot of the Basal Eurasian component. There is Arabian ancestry in North Africa, however it is not the biggest part.

Squad
01-27-2018, 05:41 PM
Who said anything about completely changing the autosomal landscape, I said that on average Maghrebis show some 10% arabian ancestry, and 10% is not an insignificant figure. Morocco has the lowest (about 5% on average), while Libya the highest (about 15% on average). Such figures are in any case not exactly what you would refer to as minimal. Some people are trying to make it as if it was completely lacking, those are indeed delusional.

nee4speed111
01-28-2018, 02:41 AM
I've always thought the relatively high levels of J1 in parts of North Africa, compared to their seemingly minuscule amounts of arab autosomal admixture, to be due to a founder effect among the early arab tribes who migrated to NA, who due to their highly patriarchal and tribal nature, disproportionately spread J1 in North Africa in comparison to actual arabian DNA. Not sure how much this meshes with the reality of it though.

Ignis90
01-28-2018, 05:54 PM
I am North African but I'm not into nationalism or berber pride or any kind of pride for that matter. I'm just interested in the data the way it presents itself. I'm not afraid to say that the Maghreb has a pathetic Y-DNA composition with no depth to it, E-M81 having a TMRCA of a mere 3000ybp at best. Even if we use slower mutation rates, it cannot be older than 4000ybp. It is even more pathetic that a few medieval arab tribes managed to make up for a fourth of Y-DNA lineages in Libya, Tunisia and even Algeria.



What does "pathetic" have to do with what is supposed to be an objective discussion? You seem to be on a crusade (or jihad) against something and different people from other threads and websites at the same time. You're all over the place.

Anyway, I have nothing else to tell you apart from the fact that you can't estimate the Arabian contribution to the region just by looking at the frequencies of the predominantly Arabian-derived J1[-P58], as I said, we need pre-islamic autosomal aDNA from the Maghreb to do that (or just using auDNA from modern populations until then).

Squad
01-28-2018, 08:05 PM
What does "pathetic" have to do with what is supposed to be an objective discussion? You seem to be on a crusade (or jihad) against something and different people from other threads and websites at the same time. You're all over the place.

Anyway, I have nothing else to tell you apart from the fact that you can't estimate the Arabian contribution to the region just by looking at the frequencies of the predominantly Arabian-derived J1[-P58], as I said, we need pre-islamic autosomal aDNA from the Maghreb to do that (or just using auDNA from modern populations until then).

It is pathetic in the sense that it has no depth compared to other regions with much higher diversities and interesting profiles. I say this just to show you that even though I'm Maghrebi myself, I can still stay honest without exhibiting this trend I've observed among North Africans on anthroboards, which is some kind of ''amazigh'' pride or something. There is nothing to be proud about a population with little to no history, Berbers (including myself) can try hard to claim they're the first inhabitants of the Maghreb, but they are never going to be.

You can estimate arabian ancestry using J-P58, though you cannot measure it, two different things. Just be honest and neutral, maybe you don't want to have arabian ancestry, but keep in mind that the Maghreb was arabized and has a somewhat significant share of arabian Y-DNA. It's there, and we can't do anything about it nor should we care, it's just what it is. It is only the ''red sea/natufian'' component that is preventing you from seeing the truth due to being shared by both Maghrebis and Arabians and you hold tight to it, but once you realize that these components can themselves be further divided into other components, that they're themselves mere composites, you'll all see what's going on. Let it be until the data for neolithic Moroccans is made available so that the ''IAM'' ancestry could be easily distinguished from ''natufian'' in admixture runs. Don't get me wrong, Maghrebis are not Arabs, but many of them do have arabian ancestry but it ought to be variable.

And you are making accusations by saying that I seem to be on a war against something/someone yet you know I've never disrespected anyone on these boards. And I don't recall being on other websites like this one, so you are making up stuff my friend.

Exacrion
01-29-2018, 08:14 PM
If anything people on boards like this one have always underestimated the arabian admixture, many even denying it and claiming J1 to be of neolithic arrival, which is laughable. Yes the profile is mostly pre-islamic who said otherwise ? I'm not here to say that North Africans are arabs or something, only to say that the admixture is real and often not negligible, and not only in Libya, Tunisia also has much of it, even Algeria. And yes there are other recent ancestries present in the Maghreb, Phoenicians for example did leave some trace, but that's not the concern of this thread. But the predominant J-P58 variant found in North Africa is of recent arabian extraction, not phoenician and certainly not neolithic. And like I've shown, it is quite frequent, in fact it is because of this significant presence that people couldn't accept it to be so recent. Especially fellow Maghrebis, they didn't want their region to have this kind of pathetic haplogroup history as they wanted more depth to it.

Woowie, East Mediterranean is not Arab but Cannanite and ancient Egyptian such as Phoenician/Hebrew and the like, to me it appear clear that the arab admixture hardly ever goes above 15% in Tunisia (Red Sea), in comparison the country has far more European ancestry (Atlantic, West Mediterranean, North Sea, Baltic...) that represent on a combined average 37% of the population.

cali
01-30-2018, 03:19 AM
I think some shouldn't underestimate the effect groups like the Phoenicians may have left in some areas:

distance%=0.649 / distance=0.00649

Tunisian

Samaritan 42.20
Mozabite 39.25
Saudi 8.30
Mende_Sierra_Leone 7.60
Dinka 2.65

Underfitted model. There is no European reference to capture the European ancestry in Tunisians, and therefore the additional layer of West Med. The program has to compensate for this by developing a bias for Samaritans. Hence, with all due respect, the model in every practical sense is misleading. When you start to add European references to capture the European ancestry in Tunisians, the results tend to look like this:

[1] "distance%=0.42 / distance=0.0042"

Tunisian

Mozabite 34.10
Saudi 33.20
Samaritan 11.45
Basque_Spanish 11.10
Mende_Sierra_Leone 6.85
Yoruba 3.30

[1] "distance%=0.4427 / distance=0.004427"

Tunisian

Mozabite 34.40
Saudi 33.20
Spanish_Cataluna 12.35
Samaritan 10.15
Mende_Sierra_Leone 6.75
Yoruba 3.15

Umer
01-30-2018, 03:48 AM
There is nothing to be proud about a population with little to no history, Berbers (including myself) can try hard to claim they're the first inhabitants of the Maghreb, but they are never going to be.

What about the Moors? Weren't they important?

mephisto
02-01-2018, 05:56 PM
Underfitted model. There is no European reference to capture the European ancestry in Tunisians, and therefore the additional layer of West Med. The program has to compensate for this by developing a bias for Samaritans. Hence, with all due respect, the model in every practical sense is misleading. When you start to add European references to capture the European ancestry in Tunisians, the results tend to look like this:

[1] "distance%=0.42 / distance=0.0042"

Tunisian

Mozabite 34.10
Saudi 33.20
Samaritan 11.45
Basque_Spanish 11.10
Mende_Sierra_Leone 6.85
Yoruba 3.30

[1] "distance%=0.4427 / distance=0.004427"

Tunisian

Mozabite 34.40
Saudi 33.20
Spanish_Cataluna 12.35
Samaritan 10.15
Mende_Sierra_Leone 6.75
Yoruba 3.15
These results cannot be taken literally. R on the first hand is not a genetic program. R is a statistical programming language. These models presented do not consider any alleles. They consider the scored amount of various calculators (I assume Basal Rich K7) and try do get the lowest mathematical distance. Some people are making conclusions like "Samaritan is used as a population by the program, so that indicates "Iran Chalcolithic" like ancestry which shows that they have a Near Eastern input.", that is not the reason why Samaritan is taken (also not why Saudi is taken), the reason is the high shared amount of the same component (the "Basal" (or Natufian) component.

Clearly NAs have recent Near Eastern input, however the amount is not as shown in the model (which would be more than 40%).

Awale
02-03-2018, 10:31 PM
Underfitted model. There is no European reference to capture the European ancestry in Tunisians, and therefore the additional layer of West Med. The program has to compensate for this by developing a bias for Samaritans. Hence, with all due respect, the model in every practical sense is misleading. When you start to add European references to capture the European ancestry in Tunisians, the results tend to look like this

I dunno if they really have that much Iberian admixture but thanks for the share. I really did think the Samaritan score was too high and your amounts make a little more sense, I suppose. Also helps explain what was missing in the fit (was wondering why the fit was as high as 0.6). Thanks for the share.

dark-mysterio
03-11-2018, 08:50 PM
if arabs exist in the maghreb do they come from 11th invasion ? and today be mixed with natives berbers population ?

Arab-Berber articles on english wikipedia (sorry but i couldn't post complete link on the thread maybe a bug :typing: :wacko: :confused:)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Berber

"in addition, Banu Hilal and Sulaym Arab tribes originating in the Arabian Peninsula invaded the region and intermarried with the local rural mainly Berber populations, and were a major factor in the linguistic, cultural and ethnic Arabization of the Maghreb."

Missouri1455
09-16-2018, 05:33 PM
distance%=0.649 / distance=0.00649

Tunisian

Samaritan 42.20
Mozabite 39.25
Saudi 8.30
Mende_Sierra_Leone 7.60
Dinka 2.65

[1] "distance%=0.42 / distance=0.0042"

Tunisian

Mozabite 34.10
Saudi 33.20
Samaritan 11.45
Basque_Spanish 11.10
Mende_Sierra_Leone 6.85
Yoruba 3.30

[1] "distance%=0.4427 / distance=0.004427"

Tunisian

Mozabite 34.40
Saudi 33.20
Spanish_Cataluna 12.35
Samaritan 10.15
Mende_Sierra_Leone 6.75
Yoruba 3.15

Bottomline, North Africans hold an undeniable genetic input from the Middle East; you take the Samaritan genetic away; Saudi genetic replace it; you take the Saudi genetic away; Samaritan genetic replace it; Middle Eastern genes is embedded into modern North Africans and these results prove it. If anything E-M81 might have originated in the Levant rather than East Africa.

Itrane2000
09-25-2019, 04:48 PM
we need pre-islamic autosomal aDNA from the Maghreb to do that (or just using auDNA from modern populations until then).
we have pre-islamic autosomal aDNA from the maghreb, if we consider DNA from GUANCHES in the link below:
https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(17)31257-5

maroco
11-06-2020, 08:03 PM
I usually get Tunisian+Egyptian/Bedouin/Palestinian/North African Jew for my Tunisian half on my 4-population-oracles but that's due, IMO, to the fact that the Tunisian sample used by Gedmatch calcs is of isolated and endogamous Tunisian Berbers from southern mountainous Tunisia (villages of Chenini and Douiret).
The recent Cherni 2016 has a PCA plot map (although with few SNPs) that show that Tunisians from Chenini and Douiret form a cluster that is a bit distant from other Tunisians.
I think if the Gedmatch calcs would include a more representative Tunisian sample, I would score Tunisian+Tunisian for my Tunisian half on 4-population-oracles.
https://s9.postimg.org/k3udug2kv/screencapture_file_C_Users_user_Downloads_Cherni.p ng
Herein a map showing the location of the Tunisian samples used by Cherni 2016:

http://i67.tinypic.com/wbz5o9.png
And herein the location of the Berber villages of Chenini and Douiret:
http://www.destinationdahar.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Carte-Sud-Tunisie-2-zoning-1024x724.jpg
http://www.tunisia-off-beaten-track.com/images/berber%20villages.png
And according to this study (which is another Cherni 2016 study):


On light of all that, should we think that the supposed West Asian shift of Eastern Tunisians vis-a-vis Tunisian berbers is due to historical Arab migration into North Africa? (or maybe Phoenician migration?)
It depends On the area but their is a huge amount of North African arabs within the region including myself.

Itrane2000
11-21-2020, 12:17 AM
here is a graph of Admixture in Arab World. So we can have an idea of the Arabian admixture in North Africa.
41288
the model for the calculation is


South_Europe:Central_Anatolia,0.110029,0.1442053,-0.037209,-0.0592167,-0.0133357,-0.0200803,0.0031333,-0.0029997,-0.0196343,0.0115417,0.0053587,0.0049457,-0.006888,0.0050007,-0.0110387,0.001061,0.0096483,0.0024913,0.0044833,-0.0026263,0.002454,0.0046577,-0.0002877,-0.0003617,-0.0007187
South_Europe:Central_Macedonia,0.1194473,0.142473, 0.0157725,-0.016492,0.0213432,-0.0035601,0.0020321,1e-07,0.0008782,0.0120812,0.0009934,0.0018424,-0.0014429,0.0070025,-0.016957,-0.0005459,0.0098095,8.94e-05,0.0050649,-0.0035531,-0.0078319,0.0015057,0.0032408,0.0005529,-0.0007256
South_Europe:Crete,0.1070972,0.1463285,-0.0168335,-0.0466295,0.0057632,-0.0153645,0.0022005,-0.0013009,-0.0029936,0.0129388,0.0013876,0.0027794,-0.0009596,0.0043915,-0.0122765,-0.0038692,0.001529,0.0008983,0.0040565,-0.0055482,-0.0050935,0.0014165,-0.0007506,-0.0012051,-0.0019595
South_Europe:Izmir,0.1146199,0.1443068,-0.0024135,-0.0345287,0.0149874,-0.0126059,0.0025145,-0.0015,-0.0022907,0.0150346,0.0018999,0.0031323,-0.003434,0.0018576,-0.0129749,0.0001989,0.0107827,-0.0001141,0.0059203,-0.0030515,-0.0060393,0.0019289,0.0002095,0.0023496,-0.0030056
South_Europe:Kos,0.1076261,0.1464618,-0.0220407,-0.0538692,0.0041031,-0.018252,0.0008617,-0.0036921,-0.0059994,0.0167861,0.0026524,0.0031472,-0.0039148,0.0009634,-0.0106012,0.0029906,0.0100107,0.0009432,0.0037151,-0.0036407,-0.0038128,0.0016762,-0.0001778,-0.0014059,-0.0021157
South_Europe:Peloponnese,0.118376,0.1438667,0.0037 713,-0.0325153,0.0159003,-0.010412,0.001645,-0.000923,-0.000409,0.018102,0.000108,0.0039467,-0.0058967,0.0037157,-0.016377,0.0023863,0.0134297,0.0003377,0.009176,-0.0007083,-0.0092753,0.003998,0.0013967,-0.0001203,-0.0033927
South_Europe:Thessaly,0.119135,0.1452207,0.013702,-0.020026,0.0188753,-0.0051133,0.0005483,0.000769,0,0.01877,0.0026523,0 .0040963,-0.0072843,0.0056883,-0.0090933,-0.0041987,0.0021297,-0.000549,0.0041483,-0.005336,-0.0069877,0.0012777,0.0035743,0.0014057,-0.003353
South_Europe:Trabzon,0.1088149,0.1395337,-0.0541922,-0.0612731,-0.0251739,-0.0177374,0.0072852,-0.0047076,-0.03798,-0.003517,0.0029556,0.0060996,-0.0143902,0.0076518,-0.0083876,-0.0124236,0.0065843,-0.0011655,-0.0010433,0.0023638,0.0040679,0.0013974,-0.0024403,-0.0025666,-0.0013412
Sub-Saharan,-0.5779179,0.0545678,0.0030419,-0.0049742,-0.0026261,-0.0019337,-0.0101839,0.0137534,0.0733831,-0.0899031,-0.0188479,0.0219105,-0.0369769,-0.0003396,0.0076185,-0.0156191,0.0180017,-0.0113682,0.0194245,-0.0184254,-0.0006737,0.0046822,-0.0033358,-0.0034782,0.0036403
Sub-Saharan:Afar,-0.2211963,0.1015527,-0.032935,-0.0799963,-0.0008207,-0.0348613,-0.0175477,0.001,0.1064887,-0.0620817,-0.0015157,-0.0105907,0.02002,-0.0010093,0.024113,-0.0126843,0.0097353,-0.001436,0.007123,0.0005833,0.005199,0.0090677,-0.0018897,0.0061453,-0.0035523
Sub-Saharan:_Agaw,-0.2248005,0.105615,-0.032998,-0.0860795,0.002462,-0.0428095,-0.0117505,-0.0043845,0.1035915,-0.0659695,-0.0017865,-0.01109,0.017468,0,0.0216475,-0.0145185,0.010561,0.0009505,0.006536,0.002626,0.0 026825,0.0040805,-0.0048685,0.0044585,-0.0079635
Sub-Saharan:_Amhara,-0.225939,0.1062921,-0.0355122,-0.0828136,0.000718,-0.0389362,-0.0142315,-0.001064,0.1039208,-0.0634689,-0.0014526,-0.0132382,0.0176081,0.0010857,0.0225899,-0.0128095,0.0076927,0.0021256,0.0060754,0.0024317, 0.0041801,0.006691,-0.0030949,0.0037353,-0.0019691
Sub-Saharan:_Anuak,-0.5729729,0.0534846,0.0013828,-0.0069983,-0.0020687,-0.0027734,-0.0084211,0.0128457,0.0784688,-0.0967269,-0.0198205,0.0231961,-0.0391473,-0.0008028,0.0086032,-0.0167209,0.0210281,-0.0083192,0.0196647,-0.0189466,6.25e-05,0.0050904,-0.0049162,-0.0026375,0.0046168
Sub-Saharan:_Ari,-0.415454,0.0655015,-0.016782,-0.039083,0.0016925,-0.0184065,0.0280835,-0.0278065,0.1048185,-0.0941245,-0.0112045,-0.002173,-0.0119675,-0.002202,0.0254475,-0.018828,0.0331175,0.021157,0.004525,-0.0100045,-0.002246,0.0009275,-0.0023415,0.001747,-0.000838
Sub-Saharan:_Ari_blacksmith,-0.4222838,0.0649938,-0.017096,-0.0366605,-0.0018978,-0.0209168,0.0256943,-0.0244988,0.1037277,-0.0865927,-0.0127205,-0.0051703,-0.0166997,-0.0007572,0.0258095,-0.0226508,0.0259897,0.0188555,0.0050488,-0.0076912,0.0002287,0.003318,-0.0047038,-4.02e-05,0.0017762
Sub-Saharan:_Ari_cultivator,-0.4108256,0.0677019,-0.018479,-0.0372957,0.0001025,-0.0225345,0.024864,-0.0243837,0.1059571,-0.0875462,-0.0119303,-0.003367,-0.0153219,-0.0002385,0.0253525,-0.0231944,0.0240254,0.0186992,0.0048015,-0.0091294,-0.0014974,0.004501,-0.0029989,-0.0015904,0.0007504
Sub-Saharan:_Gumuz,-0.5256728,0.0489145,-0.0071653,-0.0124893,-0.0007693,-0.0077625,0.0057967,-0.0019615,0.0953762,-0.1010805,-0.0201362,0.017984,-0.0375615,-0.0020873,0.0160377,-0.020463,0.0244687,0.0021115,0.0144133,-0.0176543,-0.0008735,0.0032767,-0.0057925,-0.0032133,0.004271
Sub-Saharan:_Jew,-0.2325787,0.1047688,-0.0335008,-0.0824188,0.0011285,-0.0398813,-0.0131997,-0.0005383,0.108091,-0.0688548,-0.0024087,-0.0126887,0.0177897,-0.0003442,0.0225293,-0.0118668,0.0095613,0.0013513,0.0050698,0.0022718, 0.0065717,0.0110462,-0.0041493,0.0030927,-0.0013773
Sub-Saharan:_Mursi,-0.525294,0.056362,-0.0062225,-0.017119,-0.002616,-0.012132,-0.0024675,0.0040385,0.098376,-0.105788,-0.020055,0.019108,-0.039098,0.0005505,0.009704,-0.021811,0.0162325,0.0003165,0.016278,-0.019885,-0.003182,0.0045135,-0.006655,-0.0037355,0.0008985
Sub-Saharan:_Oromo,-0.2763223,0.0955195,-0.0299921,-0.071231,0.0021361,-0.0336965,-0.0082114,-0.0052804,0.1044275,-0.0711901,-0.0057122,-0.0102967,0.0103451,-0.0001701,0.0218111,-0.0142651,0.0154928,0.0049931,0.0072018,7.36e-05,0.0028773,0.0062264,-0.0036902,0.0029556,-0.0023387
Sub-Saharan:_Tigray,-0.2150588,0.1071084,-0.0348282,-0.084854,0.0001992,-0.0398486,-0.0165753,-0.0006107,0.1012874,-0.0604916,-0.0023595,-0.0137788,0.0197631,0.0014491,0.0210207,-0.009445,0.0116041,0.0001937,0.0058561,0.0030456,0 .0038535,0.0065244,-0.0030376,0.0030548,-0.0045504
Sub-Saharan:_Wolayta,-0.3118753,0.0873353,-0.02577,-0.0628773,-0.0001027,-0.030771,-0.0008617,-0.0126917,0.1068293,-0.07417,-0.0081193,-0.0111403,0.004113,-0.0017893,0.0255153,-0.0172367,0.0115177,0.0065877,0.005866,-0.0020427,0.0026207,0.0040807,-0.0043957,0.0009237,-0.0030337
South_Europe:Armenian_Hemsheni,0.1073187,0.1373866 ,-0.0583459,-0.0603549,-0.0348194,-0.0153391,0.007151,-0.0074173,-0.0460763,-0.0057274,0.0027377,0.0070223,-0.0124449,0.0009631,-0.0083759,-0.0077471,0.0090896,-0.0002171,-0.0021367,0.0045914,0.0057397,0.0038686,-0.0030461,-0.0063346,0.0007356
South_Europe:Turkish_Trabzon,0.1092702,0.1391276,-0.0540038,-0.0608532,-0.0242508,-0.0165662,0.004982,-0.0074306,-0.0362826,0.0004376,0.0032154,0.0066242,-0.0086816,0.005395,-0.010315,-0.0089364,0.0083706,0.0005068,0.0010054,0.001901,0 .0063136,-0.0006184,0.0016514,-0.004121,-0.0007184
Amazigh,-0.0368027777777778,0.136457,-0.0109504074074074,-0.0764433333333333,0.0237992592592593,-0.0319382222222222,-0.0261382962962963,0.00549555555555555,0.061001148 1481481,0.0277337037037037,0.00721725925925926,-0.00743785185185185,0.0223101851851852,-0.0117946666666667,0.0147884444444444,-0.014300037037037,-0.00625359259259259,-0.018201,-0.0385427037037037,0.00880518518518518,-0.0120528148148148,-0.0308536666666667,0.0222622222222222,-0.00484214814814815,0.00327314814814815
Amazigh,-0.0218061052631579,0.138058578947368,-0.00656984210526316,-0.073848,0.0272924736842105,-0.0349641578947368,-0.0234886315789474,0.00318205263157895,0.061217263 1578947,0.030443,0.00323921052631579,-0.00529268421052632,0.0171898421052632,-0.0144866842105263,0.0120576315789474,-0.0106698421052632,0.00104989473684211,-0.0188300526315789,-0.0391118947368421,0.00796442105263158,-0.0132462631578947,-0.0351369473684211,0.0212311578947368,-0.00272052631578947,0.00544526315789474
Amazigh,-0.0342733333333333,0.133824111111111,-0.00825466666666667,-0.0738234444444444,0.0236625555555556,-0.0367516666666667,-0.0260337777777778,0.00546133333333333,0.062811555 5555556,0.0321343333333333,0.00344622222222222,-0.00862555555555556,0.0189623333333333,-0.0211938888888889,0.0149292222222222,-0.00153222222222222,0.014936,-0.0228321111111111,-0.042933,0.0105884444444444,-0.0146963333333333,-0.0363401111111111,0.0253616666666667,0.0001873333 33333333,0.00268766666666667
Amazigh,-0.0542424827586207,0.138006931034483,-0.00482451724137931,-0.0743679655172414,0.0276443103448276,-0.0344863103448276,-0.0291573103448276,0.00873703448275862,0.066590137 9310345,0.0308858965517241,0.00614844827586207,-0.00653720689655172,0.0221145517241379,-0.0181139655172414,0.0181023103448276,-0.0173372413793103,-0.00309324137931034,-0.0229132068965517,-0.0461658620689655,0.00833155172413793,-0.0172626206896552,-0.0415600689655172,0.0270252413793103,-0.00317020689655172,0.00694124137931035
Amazigh,-0.061085,0.137773666666667,-0.00942766666666667,-0.071706,0.028005,-0.0349546666666667,-0.0296893333333333,0.00507666666666667,0.072810666 6666667,0.0246626666666667,0.00644133333333333,-0.007843,0.024975,-0.0176616666666667,0.0209913333333333,-0.0120653333333333,0.00530233333333333,-0.026731,-0.0521646666666667,0.0149656666666667,-0.0112303333333333,-0.0471116666666667,0.0329893333333333,-0.0134156666666667,0.00642633333333333
Amazigh,-0.0712946363636364,0.132018727272727,-0.00473109090909091,-0.078489,0.0297676363636364,-0.0377262727272727,-0.0338628181818182,0.0112441818181818,0.0775887272 727273,0.0333823636363636,0.00913809090909091,-0.00865136363636364,0.0245020909090909,-0.0207560909090909,0.0207405454545455,-0.0135602727272727,0.00339009090909091,-0.0267080909090909,-0.0562784545454545,0.0106415454545455,-0.0205546363636364,-0.0513945454545454,0.0333103636363636,-0.00157736363636364,0.00644454545454545
Amazigh,-0.0615784,0.137198,-0.0001507,-0.0816221,0.03296,-0.038208,-0.0338885,0.0074767,0.0878225,0.0358641,0.0105715,-0.0103558,0.0246331,-0.0209324,0.0216882,-0.0200741,-0.0002738,-0.0290623,-0.0608629,0.0137565,-0.0243945,-0.0560025,0.0336466,-0.008712,0.009999
Arabian:Saudi,0.0494498,0.1411588,-0.0646136,-0.1161014,-0.0115919,-0.0481242,-0.0133696,-0.008179,0.0516537,-0.0058923,0.016293,-0.0318551,0.063346,0.0021408,0.0031818,0.0271809,-0.0220493,0.0042931,-0.0003213,0.0302646,0.0130601,0.0168853,-0.0072031,0.0082741,-0.0097528
Arabian:Yemenite_Marib,0.0448462,0.143799,-0.0612444,-0.1170562,-0.0092324,-0.0479134,-0.0110452,-0.0045692,0.053626,-0.007581,0.0147122,-0.0271256,0.0514366,0.0055874,0.0004886,0.0201534,-0.021383,0.00451,0.0025894,0.0183086,0.0114298,0.0 13132,-0.0067292,0.004651,-0.0054844
Arabian:Yemenite_Mahra,0.0542556,0.1360809,-0.0682589,-0.1211978,-0.0037272,-0.056305,-0.0130301,-0.0088204,0.0628798,-0.002045,0.0167981,-0.0325711,0.0657411,0.0058413,0.0080528,0.0270778,-0.0210643,0.0028717,-0.0019133,0.0248312,0.0137259,0.0160887,-0.0087369,0.0027848,-0.0052289
Arabian:BedouinB,0.041925,0.1439232,-0.0598156,-0.1169808,-0.0093179,-0.0480622,-0.0141008,-0.0087432,0.05154,-0.0052038,0.0158689,-0.0305729,0.0629496,0.004855,0.0043959,0.0288529,-0.0199706,0.00366,-0.0040153,0.029,0.0109668,0.0152299,-0.0039166,0.0071025,-0.0083092
Sub-Saharan:Mandenka,-0.6074993,0.0638654,0.0182693,0.0106949,-0.0002223,0.0090486,-0.0379544,0.0385626,-0.0308035,0.0258573,0.0050792,-0.001224,0.0194993,-0.0009938,0.0165353,-0.0121246,0.0109161,-0.0002674,-0.0019414,-0.0022025,-0.0017954,-0.0056467,0.0005958,-0.0010042,0.0014968
Sub-Saharan:Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
Middle_East:Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese10AR37,0.09 1058,0.144205,-0.054305,-0.076874,-0.013233,-0.034861,0,-0.013153,0.00225,0.01385,0.004709,-0.007194,0.000446,-0.000413,-0.014929,0.012331,-0.000391,0.002027,0.001257,-0.004127,0.000749,0.006059,0,0,0.002515
Middle_East:Lebanese_Christian,0.0881496,0.1457849 ,-0.0488581,-0.0788479,-0.0128912,-0.03074,-0.0004961,-0.0042818,0.0051812,0.0102254,0.0066579,-0.0045293,0.0103899,0,-0.0103147,0.0084709,-0.0021007,0.0017877,0.0025419,-0.0001251,0.0007627,-0.0003022,-0.0014104,0.0023564,-0.0012108
Middle_East:Lebanese_Druze,0.0841153,0.1404478,-0.0496667,-0.070091,-0.0156642,-0.0251838,-0.0024205,-0.0053304,-0.0023112,0.0075992,0.0051477,-0.0030274,0.009083,0.0020232,-0.0068675,0.0061655,-0.0020861,0.0008361,0.0024761,-0.000913,-0.0013225,0.0019414,0.0002465,0.0025182,-0.0005866
Middle_East:Samaritan,0.0853674,0.1486734,-0.0573978,-0.0925072,-0.0096018,-0.0350286,-0.002209,-0.0081688,0.016321,0.008237,0.0091586,-0.0099212,0.0204854,0.0118632,-0.0055372,0.0021214,-0.011239,0.0010134,0.0021116,-0.003652,-0.0005242,0.003116,0.000567,-0.0029402,0.0046462
Middle_East:Assyrian,0.0978879,0.1320187,-0.0621905,-0.0623096,-0.0319779,-0.017342,0.005811,-0.0057269,-0.0245056,-0.0037937,0.0042368,-0.0014715,0.0047166,-0.0003002,-0.0027515,0.0080879,-0.0006045,0.0011402,0.001177,-0.0050024,-0.0027792,0.0023155,-0.000112,-0.0025524,0.0028523
South_Europe:Aosta_Valley,0.1269696,0.1460839,0.03 92582,0.0047481,0.036976,-0.0015478,0.0024088,0.0028038,0.0102262,0.0219594,-0.004766,0.0049306,-0.0147248,-0.010356,0.0074986,0.0062582,0.0051892,-0.000285,0.003375,-0.0005378,0.0029261,0.0019476,-0.0009181,0.0081396,-5.98e-05
South_Europe:Aragon,0.1195142,0.14649,0.041389,-0.000323,0.0468548,-0.0001395,-0.0005287,0.002942,0.0249008,0.036903,-0.0021518,0.0103035,-0.0176535,-0.0128335,0.0127578,-0.0027845,-0.0047592,-0.0007918,-0.0022312,0.0010005,0.0034625,9.28e-05,-0.0011708,-0.0010545,-0.0002395
South_Europe:Asturias,0.110408,0.144205,0.045632,0 .000646,0.051702,-0.007251,-0.007285,0.006923,0.025975,0.031345,-0.003248,0.008093,-0.019029,-0.009083,0.014386,-0.013392,-0.015907,0.001267,-0.005405,-0.000875,0.006863,-0.006059,-0.001602,0.001325,0.006466
South_Europe:Barcelones,0.1192866,0.1490798,0.0457 07,0.0046512,0.0459162,0.0033466,0.0032432,0.00364 6,0.0208614,0.0296314,-0.0041572,0.0070438,-0.014331,-0.0092206,0.007763,-0.0004244,-0.006102,-0.0001016,0.0023632,-0.0035268,0.0035686,-4.96e-05,-0.0039932,-0.003639,0.0015326
South_Europe:Cantabria,0.119514,0.14759,0.0443743, 0.0059217,0.046778,-0.0059497,-0.0005483,0.001923,0.0235883,0.0347463,-0.0056293,0.0086423,-0.018632,-0.0168817,0.009093,0.001635,-0.0035203,0.0012667,-0.0054047,-0.004794,0.002787,0.000742,-0.0059567,-0.0017673,0.0006783
South_Europe:Castello,0.1203273,0.1462361,0.043476 6,0.0011536,0.045283,-0.0015539,-0.001175,0.0011867,0.0240169,0.0348331,-0.0056141,0.0068511,-0.0159703,-0.0151189,0.0078719,0.0046974,0.0027569,0.0013937,-0.0008799,-0.0002679,0.0057756,0.0004063,-0.0064089,-0.002169,0.0005646
South_Europe:Castilla_La_Mancha,0.1155305,0.148013 5,0.040352,-0.00323,0.0420845,-0.004811,-0.0017038,0.0017308,0.024645,0.0339415,-0.0021108,0.008692,-0.015275,-0.012386,0.010281,-0.0010605,-0.0060302,-0.00019,-0.0001257,-0.000688,0.005459,0.0014837,-0.0010477,-0.003886,-0.0010778
South_Europe:Cataluna,0.114582,0.1462363,0.0458833 ,0.0023687,0.0471883,0,-0.0020367,0.0023843,0.0223613,0.0304943,-0.0018947,0.0085923,-0.016006,-0.0106427,0.0088673,0.001591,-0.000652,-0.001647,-0.001131,-0.0009587,0.0061973,-0.005729,-0.0039027,-0.001928,0.0009577
South_Europe:Catalunya_Central,0.12432,0.1492828,0 .0441231,0.0021174,0.0466753,0.0016423,-0.0001828,0.0009744,0.0211114,0.0289753,-0.0028871,0.0064274,-0.0149652,-0.0124012,0.0075702,0.0049794,0.0003188,0.0013231,-0.00081,-0.0014034,0.0029393,0.0016624,-0.0006709,-0.0026239,-0.0007184
South_Europe:Galicia,0.1087643,0.1464619,0.0410642 ,-0.0016509,0.0412043,-9.29e-05,-0.0054572,0.0024231,0.0247133,0.0300285,-0.0021291,0.0057365,-0.0126113,-0.0121567,0.0111441,0.0005893,-0.0042375,-0.0021607,-0.0050418,-0.0010076,0.0008734,-0.002899,-0.0008079,-0.0036818,0.0013038
South_Europe:Girona,0.1213354,0.1459315,0.0418982, 0.0032946,0.0411769,0.0016175,-0.0004464,0.003369,0.019982,0.0308893,-0.0020622,0.0088722,-0.0134539,-0.013487,0.0075732,0.0030497,0.0020472,-0.0006207,0.0016719,-0.0027263,0.0028325,-0.0010017,-0.0003451,0.0001325,-0.0016524
South_Europe:Pais_Vasco,0.128241,0.1516523,0.05631 63,0.008075,0.052112,0.0024173,0.000235,0.002923,0 .0277467,0.039849,-0.0059003,0.0093417,-0.02106,-0.012065,0.0184127,-0.002475,-0.0123433,0.0028713,0.0022207,-0.0065867,0.0077363,-0.002432,-0.006532,-0.006748,0.003672
South_Europe:Pirineu,0.1219803,0.1465747,0.0426775 ,0.002584,0.0449827,-0.0008367,-0.0008617,0.0043845,0.025395,0.034321,-0.0023003,0.0096163,-0.0147918,-0.0124548,0.0070348,0.000442,-0.0014342,0.00038,-0.0044413,-0.0016048,0.0037017,-0.0006183,-0.0028348,-0.0064467,0.0018163
Egyptian,0.040976,0.159438,-0.055437,-0.102068,0,-0.060798,-0.023266,-0.008307,0.048472,0.007472,0.015427,-0.019782,0.034341,-0.004129,0.00475,-0.015646,-0.024121,0.007348,-0.005028,-0.00025,-0.004617,0.008285,-0.012571,0.005302,-0.005987
Egyptian,0.050082,0.146744,-0.042426,-0.1183805,-0.0020005,-0.049782,-0.015628,-0.004731,0.0474495,0.006196,0.0090125,-0.011465,0.029732,-0.005849,-0.0008145,-0.0020555,-0.0074315,-0.0019635,-0.0035195,0.0120055,0.005615,0.0016695,0.0036355,0 .003916,-0.0005985
Egyptian,0.018212,0.14319,-0.04978,-0.108529,0.00277,-0.042391,-0.010575,-0.002308,0.044382,-0.001458,0.00682,-0.01154,0.033003,0.003028,-0.000407,0.00305,0.001825,-0.005954,-0.008673,0.006628,-0.002496,0.000742,-0.002465,0.001566,-0.001437
Amazigh:Canary_Islands_Guanche1,-0.050082,0.122879,-0.008297,-0.073321,0.022773,-0.04016,-0.029376,0.015922,0.07097,0.043919,0.009906,-0.007194,0.023934,-0.021744,0.020765,-0.009414,0.001956,-0.02065,-0.047011,0.010255,-0.008235,-0.045628,0.031551,0.007712,0.009819
Amazigh:Canary_Islands_Guanche2,-0.01935,0.125926,0.004148,-0.056848,0.049855,-0.029841,-0.034782,0.005307,0.066675,0.028247,0.00406,-0.006894,0.016204,-0.015276,0.019544,0.001856,0.017993,-0.01761,-0.034567,0.018384,-0.0141,-0.025596,0.020706,-0.006145,-0.011376
Amazigh:Canary_Islands_Guanche3,-0.027318,0.139128,0.000754,-0.068153,0.042162,-0.036256,-0.022561,0.005538,0.063811,0.030616,0.009256,-0.000749,0.015609,-0.015964,0.022937,-0.026385,-0.008605,-0.02027,-0.0406,0.007128,-0.016097,-0.028935,0.018734,0.002892,-0.000718
Amazigh:Canary_Islands_Guanche1,-0.044391,0.131003,-0.00528,-0.066861,0.030775,-0.03765,-0.034077,0.008538,0.07281,0.027335,0.006658,-0.006894,0.02438,-0.009634,0.024701,-0.018297,-0.007823,-0.016976,-0.052416,0.008129,-0.019091,-0.045752,0.023047,-0.007832,0.013771
Amazigh:Canary_Islands_Guanche4,-0.055773,0.138112,-0.003017,-0.078489,0.023081,-0.037929,-0.029141,0.006,0.080173,0.022597,0.007957,-0.008243,0.01115,-0.025873,0.028094,-0.012994,0.012386,-0.020524,-0.047011,0.008129,-0.009858,-0.04266,0.022308,-0.00253,0.011616

Seabass
11-21-2020, 12:45 AM
here is a graph of Admixture in Arab World. So we can have an idea of the Arabian admixture in North Africa.

For Egyptians are you using some of the ancient samples? Or a couple of the moderns, maybe a Copt thrown in?

Itrane2000
11-21-2020, 06:10 AM
for Egyptian, I use
2 ancient Egyptians + 1 Coptic modern

Adamm
11-21-2020, 12:42 PM
here is a graph of Admixture in Arab World. So we can have an idea of the Arabian admixture in North Africa.
41288
the model for the calculation is


South_Europe:Central_Anatolia,0.110029,0.1442053,-0.037209,-0.0592167,-0.0133357,-0.0200803,0.0031333,-0.0029997,-0.0196343,0.0115417,0.0053587,0.0049457,-0.006888,0.0050007,-0.0110387,0.001061,0.0096483,0.0024913,0.0044833,-0.0026263,0.002454,0.0046577,-0.0002877,-0.0003617,-0.0007187
South_Europe:Central_Macedonia,0.1194473,0.142473, 0.0157725,-0.016492,0.0213432,-0.0035601,0.0020321,1e-07,0.0008782,0.0120812,0.0009934,0.0018424,-0.0014429,0.0070025,-0.016957,-0.0005459,0.0098095,8.94e-05,0.0050649,-0.0035531,-0.0078319,0.0015057,0.0032408,0.0005529,-0.0007256
South_Europe:Crete,0.1070972,0.1463285,-0.0168335,-0.0466295,0.0057632,-0.0153645,0.0022005,-0.0013009,-0.0029936,0.0129388,0.0013876,0.0027794,-0.0009596,0.0043915,-0.0122765,-0.0038692,0.001529,0.0008983,0.0040565,-0.0055482,-0.0050935,0.0014165,-0.0007506,-0.0012051,-0.0019595
South_Europe:Izmir,0.1146199,0.1443068,-0.0024135,-0.0345287,0.0149874,-0.0126059,0.0025145,-0.0015,-0.0022907,0.0150346,0.0018999,0.0031323,-0.003434,0.0018576,-0.0129749,0.0001989,0.0107827,-0.0001141,0.0059203,-0.0030515,-0.0060393,0.0019289,0.0002095,0.0023496,-0.0030056
South_Europe:Kos,0.1076261,0.1464618,-0.0220407,-0.0538692,0.0041031,-0.018252,0.0008617,-0.0036921,-0.0059994,0.0167861,0.0026524,0.0031472,-0.0039148,0.0009634,-0.0106012,0.0029906,0.0100107,0.0009432,0.0037151,-0.0036407,-0.0038128,0.0016762,-0.0001778,-0.0014059,-0.0021157
South_Europe:Peloponnese,0.118376,0.1438667,0.0037 713,-0.0325153,0.0159003,-0.010412,0.001645,-0.000923,-0.000409,0.018102,0.000108,0.0039467,-0.0058967,0.0037157,-0.016377,0.0023863,0.0134297,0.0003377,0.009176,-0.0007083,-0.0092753,0.003998,0.0013967,-0.0001203,-0.0033927
South_Europe:Thessaly,0.119135,0.1452207,0.013702,-0.020026,0.0188753,-0.0051133,0.0005483,0.000769,0,0.01877,0.0026523,0 .0040963,-0.0072843,0.0056883,-0.0090933,-0.0041987,0.0021297,-0.000549,0.0041483,-0.005336,-0.0069877,0.0012777,0.0035743,0.0014057,-0.003353
South_Europe:Trabzon,0.1088149,0.1395337,-0.0541922,-0.0612731,-0.0251739,-0.0177374,0.0072852,-0.0047076,-0.03798,-0.003517,0.0029556,0.0060996,-0.0143902,0.0076518,-0.0083876,-0.0124236,0.0065843,-0.0011655,-0.0010433,0.0023638,0.0040679,0.0013974,-0.0024403,-0.0025666,-0.0013412
Sub-Saharan,-0.5779179,0.0545678,0.0030419,-0.0049742,-0.0026261,-0.0019337,-0.0101839,0.0137534,0.0733831,-0.0899031,-0.0188479,0.0219105,-0.0369769,-0.0003396,0.0076185,-0.0156191,0.0180017,-0.0113682,0.0194245,-0.0184254,-0.0006737,0.0046822,-0.0033358,-0.0034782,0.0036403
Sub-Saharan:Afar,-0.2211963,0.1015527,-0.032935,-0.0799963,-0.0008207,-0.0348613,-0.0175477,0.001,0.1064887,-0.0620817,-0.0015157,-0.0105907,0.02002,-0.0010093,0.024113,-0.0126843,0.0097353,-0.001436,0.007123,0.0005833,0.005199,0.0090677,-0.0018897,0.0061453,-0.0035523
Sub-Saharan:_Agaw,-0.2248005,0.105615,-0.032998,-0.0860795,0.002462,-0.0428095,-0.0117505,-0.0043845,0.1035915,-0.0659695,-0.0017865,-0.01109,0.017468,0,0.0216475,-0.0145185,0.010561,0.0009505,0.006536,0.002626,0.0 026825,0.0040805,-0.0048685,0.0044585,-0.0079635
Sub-Saharan:_Amhara,-0.225939,0.1062921,-0.0355122,-0.0828136,0.000718,-0.0389362,-0.0142315,-0.001064,0.1039208,-0.0634689,-0.0014526,-0.0132382,0.0176081,0.0010857,0.0225899,-0.0128095,0.0076927,0.0021256,0.0060754,0.0024317, 0.0041801,0.006691,-0.0030949,0.0037353,-0.0019691
Sub-Saharan:_Anuak,-0.5729729,0.0534846,0.0013828,-0.0069983,-0.0020687,-0.0027734,-0.0084211,0.0128457,0.0784688,-0.0967269,-0.0198205,0.0231961,-0.0391473,-0.0008028,0.0086032,-0.0167209,0.0210281,-0.0083192,0.0196647,-0.0189466,6.25e-05,0.0050904,-0.0049162,-0.0026375,0.0046168
Sub-Saharan:_Ari,-0.415454,0.0655015,-0.016782,-0.039083,0.0016925,-0.0184065,0.0280835,-0.0278065,0.1048185,-0.0941245,-0.0112045,-0.002173,-0.0119675,-0.002202,0.0254475,-0.018828,0.0331175,0.021157,0.004525,-0.0100045,-0.002246,0.0009275,-0.0023415,0.001747,-0.000838
Sub-Saharan:_Ari_blacksmith,-0.4222838,0.0649938,-0.017096,-0.0366605,-0.0018978,-0.0209168,0.0256943,-0.0244988,0.1037277,-0.0865927,-0.0127205,-0.0051703,-0.0166997,-0.0007572,0.0258095,-0.0226508,0.0259897,0.0188555,0.0050488,-0.0076912,0.0002287,0.003318,-0.0047038,-4.02e-05,0.0017762
Sub-Saharan:_Ari_cultivator,-0.4108256,0.0677019,-0.018479,-0.0372957,0.0001025,-0.0225345,0.024864,-0.0243837,0.1059571,-0.0875462,-0.0119303,-0.003367,-0.0153219,-0.0002385,0.0253525,-0.0231944,0.0240254,0.0186992,0.0048015,-0.0091294,-0.0014974,0.004501,-0.0029989,-0.0015904,0.0007504
Sub-Saharan:_Gumuz,-0.5256728,0.0489145,-0.0071653,-0.0124893,-0.0007693,-0.0077625,0.0057967,-0.0019615,0.0953762,-0.1010805,-0.0201362,0.017984,-0.0375615,-0.0020873,0.0160377,-0.020463,0.0244687,0.0021115,0.0144133,-0.0176543,-0.0008735,0.0032767,-0.0057925,-0.0032133,0.004271
Sub-Saharan:_Jew,-0.2325787,0.1047688,-0.0335008,-0.0824188,0.0011285,-0.0398813,-0.0131997,-0.0005383,0.108091,-0.0688548,-0.0024087,-0.0126887,0.0177897,-0.0003442,0.0225293,-0.0118668,0.0095613,0.0013513,0.0050698,0.0022718, 0.0065717,0.0110462,-0.0041493,0.0030927,-0.0013773
Sub-Saharan:_Mursi,-0.525294,0.056362,-0.0062225,-0.017119,-0.002616,-0.012132,-0.0024675,0.0040385,0.098376,-0.105788,-0.020055,0.019108,-0.039098,0.0005505,0.009704,-0.021811,0.0162325,0.0003165,0.016278,-0.019885,-0.003182,0.0045135,-0.006655,-0.0037355,0.0008985
Sub-Saharan:_Oromo,-0.2763223,0.0955195,-0.0299921,-0.071231,0.0021361,-0.0336965,-0.0082114,-0.0052804,0.1044275,-0.0711901,-0.0057122,-0.0102967,0.0103451,-0.0001701,0.0218111,-0.0142651,0.0154928,0.0049931,0.0072018,7.36e-05,0.0028773,0.0062264,-0.0036902,0.0029556,-0.0023387
Sub-Saharan:_Tigray,-0.2150588,0.1071084,-0.0348282,-0.084854,0.0001992,-0.0398486,-0.0165753,-0.0006107,0.1012874,-0.0604916,-0.0023595,-0.0137788,0.0197631,0.0014491,0.0210207,-0.009445,0.0116041,0.0001937,0.0058561,0.0030456,0 .0038535,0.0065244,-0.0030376,0.0030548,-0.0045504
Sub-Saharan:_Wolayta,-0.3118753,0.0873353,-0.02577,-0.0628773,-0.0001027,-0.030771,-0.0008617,-0.0126917,0.1068293,-0.07417,-0.0081193,-0.0111403,0.004113,-0.0017893,0.0255153,-0.0172367,0.0115177,0.0065877,0.005866,-0.0020427,0.0026207,0.0040807,-0.0043957,0.0009237,-0.0030337
South_Europe:Armenian_Hemsheni,0.1073187,0.1373866 ,-0.0583459,-0.0603549,-0.0348194,-0.0153391,0.007151,-0.0074173,-0.0460763,-0.0057274,0.0027377,0.0070223,-0.0124449,0.0009631,-0.0083759,-0.0077471,0.0090896,-0.0002171,-0.0021367,0.0045914,0.0057397,0.0038686,-0.0030461,-0.0063346,0.0007356
South_Europe:Turkish_Trabzon,0.1092702,0.1391276,-0.0540038,-0.0608532,-0.0242508,-0.0165662,0.004982,-0.0074306,-0.0362826,0.0004376,0.0032154,0.0066242,-0.0086816,0.005395,-0.010315,-0.0089364,0.0083706,0.0005068,0.0010054,0.001901,0 .0063136,-0.0006184,0.0016514,-0.004121,-0.0007184
Amazigh,-0.0368027777777778,0.136457,-0.0109504074074074,-0.0764433333333333,0.0237992592592593,-0.0319382222222222,-0.0261382962962963,0.00549555555555555,0.061001148 1481481,0.0277337037037037,0.00721725925925926,-0.00743785185185185,0.0223101851851852,-0.0117946666666667,0.0147884444444444,-0.014300037037037,-0.00625359259259259,-0.018201,-0.0385427037037037,0.00880518518518518,-0.0120528148148148,-0.0308536666666667,0.0222622222222222,-0.00484214814814815,0.00327314814814815
Amazigh,-0.0218061052631579,0.138058578947368,-0.00656984210526316,-0.073848,0.0272924736842105,-0.0349641578947368,-0.0234886315789474,0.00318205263157895,0.061217263 1578947,0.030443,0.00323921052631579,-0.00529268421052632,0.0171898421052632,-0.0144866842105263,0.0120576315789474,-0.0106698421052632,0.00104989473684211,-0.0188300526315789,-0.0391118947368421,0.00796442105263158,-0.0132462631578947,-0.0351369473684211,0.0212311578947368,-0.00272052631578947,0.00544526315789474
Amazigh,-0.0342733333333333,0.133824111111111,-0.00825466666666667,-0.0738234444444444,0.0236625555555556,-0.0367516666666667,-0.0260337777777778,0.00546133333333333,0.062811555 5555556,0.0321343333333333,0.00344622222222222,-0.00862555555555556,0.0189623333333333,-0.0211938888888889,0.0149292222222222,-0.00153222222222222,0.014936,-0.0228321111111111,-0.042933,0.0105884444444444,-0.0146963333333333,-0.0363401111111111,0.0253616666666667,0.0001873333 33333333,0.00268766666666667
Amazigh,-0.0542424827586207,0.138006931034483,-0.00482451724137931,-0.0743679655172414,0.0276443103448276,-0.0344863103448276,-0.0291573103448276,0.00873703448275862,0.066590137 9310345,0.0308858965517241,0.00614844827586207,-0.00653720689655172,0.0221145517241379,-0.0181139655172414,0.0181023103448276,-0.0173372413793103,-0.00309324137931034,-0.0229132068965517,-0.0461658620689655,0.00833155172413793,-0.0172626206896552,-0.0415600689655172,0.0270252413793103,-0.00317020689655172,0.00694124137931035
Amazigh,-0.061085,0.137773666666667,-0.00942766666666667,-0.071706,0.028005,-0.0349546666666667,-0.0296893333333333,0.00507666666666667,0.072810666 6666667,0.0246626666666667,0.00644133333333333,-0.007843,0.024975,-0.0176616666666667,0.0209913333333333,-0.0120653333333333,0.00530233333333333,-0.026731,-0.0521646666666667,0.0149656666666667,-0.0112303333333333,-0.0471116666666667,0.0329893333333333,-0.0134156666666667,0.00642633333333333
Amazigh,-0.0712946363636364,0.132018727272727,-0.00473109090909091,-0.078489,0.0297676363636364,-0.0377262727272727,-0.0338628181818182,0.0112441818181818,0.0775887272 727273,0.0333823636363636,0.00913809090909091,-0.00865136363636364,0.0245020909090909,-0.0207560909090909,0.0207405454545455,-0.0135602727272727,0.00339009090909091,-0.0267080909090909,-0.0562784545454545,0.0106415454545455,-0.0205546363636364,-0.0513945454545454,0.0333103636363636,-0.00157736363636364,0.00644454545454545
Amazigh,-0.0615784,0.137198,-0.0001507,-0.0816221,0.03296,-0.038208,-0.0338885,0.0074767,0.0878225,0.0358641,0.0105715,-0.0103558,0.0246331,-0.0209324,0.0216882,-0.0200741,-0.0002738,-0.0290623,-0.0608629,0.0137565,-0.0243945,-0.0560025,0.0336466,-0.008712,0.009999
Arabian:Saudi,0.0494498,0.1411588,-0.0646136,-0.1161014,-0.0115919,-0.0481242,-0.0133696,-0.008179,0.0516537,-0.0058923,0.016293,-0.0318551,0.063346,0.0021408,0.0031818,0.0271809,-0.0220493,0.0042931,-0.0003213,0.0302646,0.0130601,0.0168853,-0.0072031,0.0082741,-0.0097528
Arabian:Yemenite_Marib,0.0448462,0.143799,-0.0612444,-0.1170562,-0.0092324,-0.0479134,-0.0110452,-0.0045692,0.053626,-0.007581,0.0147122,-0.0271256,0.0514366,0.0055874,0.0004886,0.0201534,-0.021383,0.00451,0.0025894,0.0183086,0.0114298,0.0 13132,-0.0067292,0.004651,-0.0054844
Arabian:Yemenite_Mahra,0.0542556,0.1360809,-0.0682589,-0.1211978,-0.0037272,-0.056305,-0.0130301,-0.0088204,0.0628798,-0.002045,0.0167981,-0.0325711,0.0657411,0.0058413,0.0080528,0.0270778,-0.0210643,0.0028717,-0.0019133,0.0248312,0.0137259,0.0160887,-0.0087369,0.0027848,-0.0052289
Arabian:BedouinB,0.041925,0.1439232,-0.0598156,-0.1169808,-0.0093179,-0.0480622,-0.0141008,-0.0087432,0.05154,-0.0052038,0.0158689,-0.0305729,0.0629496,0.004855,0.0043959,0.0288529,-0.0199706,0.00366,-0.0040153,0.029,0.0109668,0.0152299,-0.0039166,0.0071025,-0.0083092
Sub-Saharan:Mandenka,-0.6074993,0.0638654,0.0182693,0.0106949,-0.0002223,0.0090486,-0.0379544,0.0385626,-0.0308035,0.0258573,0.0050792,-0.001224,0.0194993,-0.0009938,0.0165353,-0.0121246,0.0109161,-0.0002674,-0.0019414,-0.0022025,-0.0017954,-0.0056467,0.0005958,-0.0010042,0.0014968
Sub-Saharan:Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
Middle_East:Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese10AR37,0.09 1058,0.144205,-0.054305,-0.076874,-0.013233,-0.034861,0,-0.013153,0.00225,0.01385,0.004709,-0.007194,0.000446,-0.000413,-0.014929,0.012331,-0.000391,0.002027,0.001257,-0.004127,0.000749,0.006059,0,0,0.002515
Middle_East:Lebanese_Christian,0.0881496,0.1457849 ,-0.0488581,-0.0788479,-0.0128912,-0.03074,-0.0004961,-0.0042818,0.0051812,0.0102254,0.0066579,-0.0045293,0.0103899,0,-0.0103147,0.0084709,-0.0021007,0.0017877,0.0025419,-0.0001251,0.0007627,-0.0003022,-0.0014104,0.0023564,-0.0012108
Middle_East:Lebanese_Druze,0.0841153,0.1404478,-0.0496667,-0.070091,-0.0156642,-0.0251838,-0.0024205,-0.0053304,-0.0023112,0.0075992,0.0051477,-0.0030274,0.009083,0.0020232,-0.0068675,0.0061655,-0.0020861,0.0008361,0.0024761,-0.000913,-0.0013225,0.0019414,0.0002465,0.0025182,-0.0005866
Middle_East:Samaritan,0.0853674,0.1486734,-0.0573978,-0.0925072,-0.0096018,-0.0350286,-0.002209,-0.0081688,0.016321,0.008237,0.0091586,-0.0099212,0.0204854,0.0118632,-0.0055372,0.0021214,-0.011239,0.0010134,0.0021116,-0.003652,-0.0005242,0.003116,0.000567,-0.0029402,0.0046462
Middle_East:Assyrian,0.0978879,0.1320187,-0.0621905,-0.0623096,-0.0319779,-0.017342,0.005811,-0.0057269,-0.0245056,-0.0037937,0.0042368,-0.0014715,0.0047166,-0.0003002,-0.0027515,0.0080879,-0.0006045,0.0011402,0.001177,-0.0050024,-0.0027792,0.0023155,-0.000112,-0.0025524,0.0028523
South_Europe:Aosta_Valley,0.1269696,0.1460839,0.03 92582,0.0047481,0.036976,-0.0015478,0.0024088,0.0028038,0.0102262,0.0219594,-0.004766,0.0049306,-0.0147248,-0.010356,0.0074986,0.0062582,0.0051892,-0.000285,0.003375,-0.0005378,0.0029261,0.0019476,-0.0009181,0.0081396,-5.98e-05
South_Europe:Aragon,0.1195142,0.14649,0.041389,-0.000323,0.0468548,-0.0001395,-0.0005287,0.002942,0.0249008,0.036903,-0.0021518,0.0103035,-0.0176535,-0.0128335,0.0127578,-0.0027845,-0.0047592,-0.0007918,-0.0022312,0.0010005,0.0034625,9.28e-05,-0.0011708,-0.0010545,-0.0002395
South_Europe:Asturias,0.110408,0.144205,0.045632,0 .000646,0.051702,-0.007251,-0.007285,0.006923,0.025975,0.031345,-0.003248,0.008093,-0.019029,-0.009083,0.014386,-0.013392,-0.015907,0.001267,-0.005405,-0.000875,0.006863,-0.006059,-0.001602,0.001325,0.006466
South_Europe:Barcelones,0.1192866,0.1490798,0.0457 07,0.0046512,0.0459162,0.0033466,0.0032432,0.00364 6,0.0208614,0.0296314,-0.0041572,0.0070438,-0.014331,-0.0092206,0.007763,-0.0004244,-0.006102,-0.0001016,0.0023632,-0.0035268,0.0035686,-4.96e-05,-0.0039932,-0.003639,0.0015326
South_Europe:Cantabria,0.119514,0.14759,0.0443743, 0.0059217,0.046778,-0.0059497,-0.0005483,0.001923,0.0235883,0.0347463,-0.0056293,0.0086423,-0.018632,-0.0168817,0.009093,0.001635,-0.0035203,0.0012667,-0.0054047,-0.004794,0.002787,0.000742,-0.0059567,-0.0017673,0.0006783
South_Europe:Castello,0.1203273,0.1462361,0.043476 6,0.0011536,0.045283,-0.0015539,-0.001175,0.0011867,0.0240169,0.0348331,-0.0056141,0.0068511,-0.0159703,-0.0151189,0.0078719,0.0046974,0.0027569,0.0013937,-0.0008799,-0.0002679,0.0057756,0.0004063,-0.0064089,-0.002169,0.0005646
South_Europe:Castilla_La_Mancha,0.1155305,0.148013 5,0.040352,-0.00323,0.0420845,-0.004811,-0.0017038,0.0017308,0.024645,0.0339415,-0.0021108,0.008692,-0.015275,-0.012386,0.010281,-0.0010605,-0.0060302,-0.00019,-0.0001257,-0.000688,0.005459,0.0014837,-0.0010477,-0.003886,-0.0010778
South_Europe:Cataluna,0.114582,0.1462363,0.0458833 ,0.0023687,0.0471883,0,-0.0020367,0.0023843,0.0223613,0.0304943,-0.0018947,0.0085923,-0.016006,-0.0106427,0.0088673,0.001591,-0.000652,-0.001647,-0.001131,-0.0009587,0.0061973,-0.005729,-0.0039027,-0.001928,0.0009577
South_Europe:Catalunya_Central,0.12432,0.1492828,0 .0441231,0.0021174,0.0466753,0.0016423,-0.0001828,0.0009744,0.0211114,0.0289753,-0.0028871,0.0064274,-0.0149652,-0.0124012,0.0075702,0.0049794,0.0003188,0.0013231,-0.00081,-0.0014034,0.0029393,0.0016624,-0.0006709,-0.0026239,-0.0007184
South_Europe:Galicia,0.1087643,0.1464619,0.0410642 ,-0.0016509,0.0412043,-9.29e-05,-0.0054572,0.0024231,0.0247133,0.0300285,-0.0021291,0.0057365,-0.0126113,-0.0121567,0.0111441,0.0005893,-0.0042375,-0.0021607,-0.0050418,-0.0010076,0.0008734,-0.002899,-0.0008079,-0.0036818,0.0013038
South_Europe:Girona,0.1213354,0.1459315,0.0418982, 0.0032946,0.0411769,0.0016175,-0.0004464,0.003369,0.019982,0.0308893,-0.0020622,0.0088722,-0.0134539,-0.013487,0.0075732,0.0030497,0.0020472,-0.0006207,0.0016719,-0.0027263,0.0028325,-0.0010017,-0.0003451,0.0001325,-0.0016524
South_Europe:Pais_Vasco,0.128241,0.1516523,0.05631 63,0.008075,0.052112,0.0024173,0.000235,0.002923,0 .0277467,0.039849,-0.0059003,0.0093417,-0.02106,-0.012065,0.0184127,-0.002475,-0.0123433,0.0028713,0.0022207,-0.0065867,0.0077363,-0.002432,-0.006532,-0.006748,0.003672
South_Europe:Pirineu,0.1219803,0.1465747,0.0426775 ,0.002584,0.0449827,-0.0008367,-0.0008617,0.0043845,0.025395,0.034321,-0.0023003,0.0096163,-0.0147918,-0.0124548,0.0070348,0.000442,-0.0014342,0.00038,-0.0044413,-0.0016048,0.0037017,-0.0006183,-0.0028348,-0.0064467,0.0018163
Egyptian,0.040976,0.159438,-0.055437,-0.102068,0,-0.060798,-0.023266,-0.008307,0.048472,0.007472,0.015427,-0.019782,0.034341,-0.004129,0.00475,-0.015646,-0.024121,0.007348,-0.005028,-0.00025,-0.004617,0.008285,-0.012571,0.005302,-0.005987
Egyptian,0.050082,0.146744,-0.042426,-0.1183805,-0.0020005,-0.049782,-0.015628,-0.004731,0.0474495,0.006196,0.0090125,-0.011465,0.029732,-0.005849,-0.0008145,-0.0020555,-0.0074315,-0.0019635,-0.0035195,0.0120055,0.005615,0.0016695,0.0036355,0 .003916,-0.0005985
Egyptian,0.018212,0.14319,-0.04978,-0.108529,0.00277,-0.042391,-0.010575,-0.002308,0.044382,-0.001458,0.00682,-0.01154,0.033003,0.003028,-0.000407,0.00305,0.001825,-0.005954,-0.008673,0.006628,-0.002496,0.000742,-0.002465,0.001566,-0.001437
Amazigh:Canary_Islands_Guanche1,-0.050082,0.122879,-0.008297,-0.073321,0.022773,-0.04016,-0.029376,0.015922,0.07097,0.043919,0.009906,-0.007194,0.023934,-0.021744,0.020765,-0.009414,0.001956,-0.02065,-0.047011,0.010255,-0.008235,-0.045628,0.031551,0.007712,0.009819
Amazigh:Canary_Islands_Guanche2,-0.01935,0.125926,0.004148,-0.056848,0.049855,-0.029841,-0.034782,0.005307,0.066675,0.028247,0.00406,-0.006894,0.016204,-0.015276,0.019544,0.001856,0.017993,-0.01761,-0.034567,0.018384,-0.0141,-0.025596,0.020706,-0.006145,-0.011376
Amazigh:Canary_Islands_Guanche3,-0.027318,0.139128,0.000754,-0.068153,0.042162,-0.036256,-0.022561,0.005538,0.063811,0.030616,0.009256,-0.000749,0.015609,-0.015964,0.022937,-0.026385,-0.008605,-0.02027,-0.0406,0.007128,-0.016097,-0.028935,0.018734,0.002892,-0.000718
Amazigh:Canary_Islands_Guanche1,-0.044391,0.131003,-0.00528,-0.066861,0.030775,-0.03765,-0.034077,0.008538,0.07281,0.027335,0.006658,-0.006894,0.02438,-0.009634,0.024701,-0.018297,-0.007823,-0.016976,-0.052416,0.008129,-0.019091,-0.045752,0.023047,-0.007832,0.013771
Amazigh:Canary_Islands_Guanche4,-0.055773,0.138112,-0.003017,-0.078489,0.023081,-0.037929,-0.029141,0.006,0.080173,0.022597,0.007957,-0.008243,0.01115,-0.025873,0.028094,-0.012994,0.012386,-0.020524,-0.047011,0.008129,-0.009858,-0.04266,0.022308,-0.00253,0.011616



https://i.imgur.com/cZFBodr.png

Itrane2000
11-21-2020, 02:06 PM
Hello
those 2 guys from Asilah have a high European admixture. Do you know if they are Moriscos ?
41300

Adamm
11-21-2020, 02:37 PM
Hello
those 2 guys from Asilah have a high European admixture. Do you know if they are Moriscos ?
41300

They are nephews from each other and both are E-Z5009 from Larache, they are not moriscos but could be.

Michalis Moriopoulos
11-21-2020, 10:37 PM
here is a graph of Admixture in Arab World. So we can have an idea of the Arabian admixture in North Africa.

Just curious-- which program are you using to graph the output?

Itrane2000
11-21-2020, 10:54 PM
Just curious-- which program are you using to graph the output?

I use Excel.

maroco
11-21-2020, 11:52 PM
You still find people here and there who try to argue that J1 was in North Africa since the Neolithic period, that's extremely unlikely to be true of course and a cursory glance at the branches of J1 found in North Africa would suffice to understand why.

Thatís because they are in denial and donít want to accept their roots. Then you got the weirdos in the community that are obsessed with North Africans that have Arabian admixture making up made up graphs like they are scientists or professionals

Itrane2000
11-22-2020, 12:14 AM
That’s because they are in denial and don’t want to accept their roots. Then you got the weirdos in the community that are obsessed with North Africans that have Arabian admixture making up made up graphs like they are scientists or professionals
off course J1 was present in North Africa before the islamic invasion, otherwise, how can you explain J1 samples in Canary Island indigenous.