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View Full Version : Newbie to BIG Y - What will the result tell me?



Maximilian
10-14-2016, 08:14 AM
Dear Community,


since I am very interested into my paternal line, I think about to save money for the BIG Y at FTDNA.

The only problem is that I really don't know if there will be any success for me since there is no (!) person with the same subgroup like me in the J1 YDNA Project Charts. So if I order the BIG Y and get my cluster, what do I have from it if I am all alone in this group?

Is there any other advantage for me by taking the BIG Y test? Any regional ancestry analyzes? I can not imagine that the only results of such an expensive test is a cluster and a group of 2 or 3 very far related people.


Thank you!

JamesKane
10-14-2016, 10:47 AM
Next Generation Sequencing tests like Big Y will sample a large portion of your Y chromosome. These results can then be compared with others in in the J1 project and the growing pool of whole genome sequencing in the 1000 Genomes project, PGP: Harvard, and competing direct-to-consumer options.

The initial results would tell you where you fall on the SNP-based tree today. Services like YFULL.COM can further analyze the results to find unreported SNP variants and more than 300 more STRs. This can help refine the initial placement and give you more markers to compare with other STR tested kits (assuming you don't have the 111 marker test today.)

How close you come to the present will depend on how many others have already tested. The real power of NGS tests is future tests can be compared against the existing set and new discoveries are made on a near weekly basis.

lgmayka
10-14-2016, 10:36 PM
The only problem is that I really don't know if there will be any success for me since there is no (!) person with the same subgroup like me in the J1 YDNA Project Charts.
You are kit N212935, right? You have a Geno2+ Transfer but no other Y-DNA tests at all. Thus, you are not listed in the regular J1 Y-DNA Project spreadsheet (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267/default.aspx?section=yresults), because FTDNA only displays project members with Y-STR results on that page.

Geno2+ classified you as J-S12192 but did not go farther. FTDNA offers a J1-S12192&BY67 SNP Pack that tests for the following SNPs:
S12192, S17446, S18537, S18784, S20001, ZS2374, ZS2376, ZS2378, ZS2361, FGC9941, Z18283, BY68, Z18280, Z18281, Z18282, BY67, ZS2387, Z18286, ZS2375, ZS2379, FGC17486, Z18287, Z18290, S22932, S22972, Z18274, Z18275, Z18276, Z18277, Z18278, BY76, ZS2357, ZS2358, ZS2359, ZS2360, ZS5274, ZS5275, ZS5276, BY77, ZS2364, ZS2365, ZS9486, ZS9487, ZS9488, ZS9489, ZS9490, ZS9491, ZS9492, ZS9493, ZS9495, ZS9496, ZS9497, ZS2366, ZS2367, ZS2368, ZS2369, ZS2370, ZS2371, S15852, ZS10316, ZS10317, ZS10318, ZS10319, BY75, ZS2373, Z18288, Z18289, BY78, ZS2380, ZS3664, ZS3665, ZS3666, ZS4340, ZS4341, ZS4342, ZS4343, ZS4344, ZS4345, BY79, ZS2382, ZS2383, ZS2385, ZS2386, ZS2388, ZS10440, ZS10441, ZS10442, ZS10443, ZS10444, ZS10445, ZS11006, ZS11007, ZS11008, ZS11009, ZS11010, ZS11011, ZS11012

Because the J-S12192 clade is no more than 2700 years old (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y5399/) (and possibly much less), perhaps all you need is:
- Y-DNA12 ($59), in order to get the email addresses of your matches
- J1-S12192&BY67 SNP Pack ($119), in order to get your most precise classification.

Right now, because you have no Y-STRs at all, you don't know who matches you. Perhaps a few men, perhaps quite many.

Have I misunderstood something? Do you have Y-STR results under a different kit number?

Maximilian
10-15-2016, 11:17 AM
You are kit N212935, right?

That's right!


You have a Geno2+ Transfer but no other Y-DNA tests at all. Thus, you are not listed in the regular J1 Y-DNA Project spreadsheet (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267/default.aspx?section=yresults), because FTDNA only displays project members with Y-STR results on that page.

Yep, I only made the Geno 2.0 test yet and transfered my result to FTDNA.


Geno2+ classified you as J-S12192 but did not go farther. FTDNA offers a J1-S12192&BY67 SNP Pack that tests for the following SNPs:
S12192, S17446, S18537, S18784, S20001, ZS2374, ZS2376, ZS2378, ZS2361, FGC9941, Z18283, BY68, Z18280, Z18281, Z18282, BY67, ZS2387, Z18286, ZS2375, ZS2379, FGC17486, Z18287, Z18290, S22932, S22972, Z18274, Z18275, Z18276, Z18277, Z18278, BY76, ZS2357, ZS2358, ZS2359, ZS2360, ZS5274, ZS5275, ZS5276, BY77, ZS2364, ZS2365, ZS9486, ZS9487, ZS9488, ZS9489, ZS9490, ZS9491, ZS9492, ZS9493, ZS9495, ZS9496, ZS9497, ZS2366, ZS2367, ZS2368, ZS2369, ZS2370, ZS2371, S15852, ZS10316, ZS10317, ZS10318, ZS10319, BY75, ZS2373, Z18288, Z18289, BY78, ZS2380, ZS3664, ZS3665, ZS3666, ZS4340, ZS4341, ZS4342, ZS4343, ZS4344, ZS4345, BY79, ZS2382, ZS2383, ZS2385, ZS2386, ZS2388, ZS10440, ZS10441, ZS10442, ZS10443, ZS10444, ZS10445, ZS11006, ZS11007, ZS11008, ZS11009, ZS11010, ZS11011, ZS11012

Wow, I thought that J-S12192 is pretty exact. But yes, the PHYLOGENETIC TREE (http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree) tells me that there are quite a lot more subclades from S12192.


- Y-DNA12 ($59), in order to get the email addresses of your matches
- J1-S12192&BY67 SNP Pack ($119), in order to get your most precise classification.

Right now, because you have no Y-STRs at all, you don't know who matches you. Perhaps a few men, perhaps quite many.

Thank you, I will take the J1-S12192&BY67 SNP Pack soon!


Have I misunderstood something? Do you have Y-STR results under a different kit number?

I think I misunderstood some things. I am very inexperienced in genetic research and science and I have the feeling that I stumbled into a big city with unreadable road signs and a language I've never heard before. :\

RobertCasey
10-15-2016, 02:16 PM
I highly recommend that you order a 67 marker test prior to testing any YSNPs. This will allow admins to look at your YSTR signature under any future YSNP testing. Since only a small percentage of testers have tested YSNPs, you would be missing on 50 to 80 % of your YDNA matches without YSTR testing. After the 67 marker order, then the J1-S12192 SNP pack would be the next step.

Here is what can expect with this round of YDNA testing. This assumes that you belong to a genetic cluster that has been well tested - so ten to twenty YSTR matches at 67 markers. Another possibility, you could be one of the first to test in your genetic cluster or you may belong to a genetic cluster that has very few male descendants that are living today. In this case, you would not find out a whole lot about your ancestry but you would be creating a new cluster for others to join eventually.

Once you have verified that you belong a robustly tested genetic cluster, then a Big Y test would be next step (unless others have already done this for your genetic cluster). In order to determine how people are related in the genealogical time frame, there needs to be a lot of people testing / surviving in the current time frame. It takes: 1) 10 or 20 submissions at 67 markers; 2) somebody testing Big Y and subsequent SNP packs to develop a robust understanding of where your genetic cluster belongs under the haplotree of mankind.

For my L226 project (which is a predictable YSNP from 67 markers), we now have 500 67 marker tests. Our L226 project now has ten percent Big Y tests (50). Around 20 % have tested YSNPs robustly to determine where they belong on the R-L226 haplotree - but I have been able to boost charting to 60 % of the submissions based on YSTR and YSNP testing. Currently, testers fall into three categories for the 60 % that can be assigned/predicted in a chart. Please note that R-L226 is around 1,500 years old:

1) Those that still have tested to branches that are still pre-surname time frame in origin (1,000 years for Irish - this varies a lot for different geographical and ethnic groups). Most, do have several closer matches but these matches have no dominant surname under one YSNP branch. Around 75 % belong to this category currently.
2) Those that belong to a YSNP branch that is dominated by one or two surnames (75 % or more). These people now know that the YSNP branch defines the surname cluster which always reveals a lot of NPE events over the last 1,000 years. Only around 20 % of these charted people belong to this grouping. These YSNPs basically inform people what surname cluster they belong along with a lot of good NPE matches.
3) For those that have extensively tested Big Y, SNP packs and individual testing of private YSNPs discovered in Big Y tests, we are now beginning to discover YSNPs that are breaking up surname clusters into branches in the genealogical time frame. Even with the extensive testing under R-L226, only five percent are discovering genealogical YSNPs below more recent than surname creation.

R-L226 is now around 40 branches. Two years ago, L226 was our terminal YSNP (the youngest YSNP known). These 50 Big Y tests have allowed to determine which branch that you belong which is significant for genealogy research. R-L226 is dominated by southwest Ireland testers, so we now know within three or four counties the geographic origins of L226. Common surnames under R-L226 are O'Brien and Casey. To our surprise, the O'Briens belong to at least five different branches that are pre-surname in time frame. So the O'Briens are both surprised as well as happy to filter out a lot of O'Briens that are from different genetic clusters. For Caseys, there were only two major genetic clusters which were thought to be related based on YSTRs only. However, it has been determined that this connection is pre-surname in origin based on YSNP research. Recently, a third Casey genetic cluster has been discovered under L226. This person is a little disappointed that he does not belong to the two large Casey clusters and is probably a NPE event of another surname.

Maximilian
10-16-2016, 03:21 AM
Thank you a lot for your explanation! I only have one question about your tip:


I highly recommend that you order a 67 marker test prior to testing any YSNPs. This will allow admins to look at your YSTR signature under any future YSNP testing. Since only a small percentage of testers have tested YSNPs, you would be missing on 50 to 80 % of your YDNA matches without YSTR testing. After the 67 marker order, then the J1-S12192 SNP pack would be the next step.


Wouldn't it be more effective and cheaper for me testing the 111 markers first instead of 67 and then, if I want a more accurate result, the 111 after that? The difference is about 100$, if I buy both it costs a lot more.

I'll do it if it brings benefit with it, but I think the bottom line would be the same, wouldn't it?

RobertCasey
10-16-2016, 02:49 PM
Wouldn't it be more effective and cheaper for me testing the 111 markers first instead of 67 and then, if I want a more accurate result, the 111 after that? The difference is about 100$, if I buy both it costs a lot more.

I'll do it if it brings benefit with it, but I think the bottom line would be the same, wouldn't it?

You only save $10 or so when ordering 111 markers up front vs. 67 then upgrading to 111 markers later. The bigger concern that I have is that getting a lot people to upgrade later has it downsides as so many lose interest pretty quick. I am becoming less enthusiastic about 111 marker tests in general - since their benefits are much less than current YSNP packs and individual YSNP testing of private YSNPs at YSEQ. In the next year or two, Whole Genomes Sequence testing will become lower cost (due to widespread medical usage of this technology) and so YElite and Big Y will be replaced like Big Y replaced Walk the Y. The WGS tests will include all 111 markers (with higher read lengths - plus 300 more YSTRs, 35 % more coverage than Big Y as a NGS test and 10X coverage of atDNA which may not help much and make IT costs soar for analysis.

Once Full Genomes rolls out higher read lengths for NGS/WGS tests that includes all 111 markers, then everyone can save $350 on 111 markers and $100 for atDNA testing - plus get 35 % more coverage of the YCHR than the Big Y. Creating and tracking these results in a database will become a large issue but can be done without too much programming effort - just hosting costs and maintenance issues. This would finally provide FTDNA with some serious alternatives to their overpriced YSTR tests with no competition.

On the other hand, I am very excited about the huge improvements in FTDNA's Mass Array SNP packs and FTDNA's haplotree. Some of these new packs now include around 50 private YSNPs. The first 20 or so L226 SNP pack tests have already revealed four new branches. There as some serious quality issues in both but for new technology this should be expected. FTDNA is now pretty responsive to making corrections to their haplotree which is nice improvement. If you are lucky to have one of these new SNP packs, they deliver much more benefit than 111 markers. L226 and L555 are the only two SNP packs with extensive inclusion of private YSNPs. It seems like they are rolling new SNP packs every week or two which is another major improvement. Also, consider testing your private YSNPs at YSEQ (if you are genealogically close matches (within five or so - excluding CDY markers). We have discovered seven branches under L226 in this manner at 10 % of the cost per branch discovered when compared to Big Y only.

Maximilian
10-29-2016, 06:34 PM
I highly recommend that you order a 67 marker test prior to testing any YSNPs.

I purchased a 67 marker test at FTDNA!

Thank you for your help! :)