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View Full Version : The major DF27-L21-U152 divide in Europe and possession of maritime skills



alan
05-08-2013, 03:24 PM
The reason why the three blocks may have remained distinct could be something to do with two of them (L21 and DF27) being maritime (one north and one south) and U152 more landlocked. I imagine its pretty hard for landlocked clades to break into networks controlled by people with developed maritime skills, even if they had numerical advantage. As long as maritime routes were important DF27 in the south and L21 in the north Atlantic could have been almost impossible to challenge for U152. You know the jokes about the Swiss Navy!

Equally a very scattered, often island based, group of L21 lineages would probably find it difficult to challenge concentrated landlocked groups. So there could have been a bit of a standoff where L21 dominated as far as north-west or north flowing rivers or north/north-west facing coasts existed. It is possible that DF27 originally had a similar modus operandi aloing the Med. and southern Atlantic areas. They could have been in competition and/or alliance at times and overlapped. L21 looks very much maritime in overall distribution and I have no doubt maritime skills were involved in this. DF27 also may originally have been like this. In fact if DF27 was linked to earliest beaker (maritime beaker) it may even be that small groups preceeded L21 into the north Atlantic before this was challenged by L21 lineages. I know DF27 clades have a massive block in and adjacent to Iberia and along the west Med and south Atlantic BUT in northern Europe does it look coastal? If it does then I think maritime skills (possibly indicated by the light scatter of maritime beaker in the north) may be the reason.

It should probably be asked how maritime skills and beaker using groups came together. Were they there from the start (indicating maritime skills had been present since L11*, L51* or even L23* days. Or did they pick them up only in some areas where beaker and pre-beaker peoples with existing skills blended together? This is very hard to answer given the uncertainty of the move from the Circumpontic sort of area to the west and the routes taken by L11, L51 and P312 westwards. A slow move through the Alps towards Liguria 3500-3000BC as indicated by the spread of copper would not make me think of a strongly maritime tradition. However, the L23XL51 report that recently came out does show that TODAY there is quite a lot of this around coasts. In fact when you combine that with other more detailed reports on Bulgaria etc then a Black and Agean sea distribution seems strong. So the evidence is not clear. It is possible that combining with pre-beaker groups with maritime skills further west was crucial and became a major driver in their expansion.

I have a suspicion that there may have been two phases in beaker-maritime traditions. DF27 might be associated with the maritime beaker expansion and its dating and its geography suggest it might have had a strong grip on the west Med. and a more tentative early role in the north Atlantic. However, quite separate beaker lineages were also capable of combining with locals to improve their maritime skills. To me the most likely area where this would have happened was NW France, a place also where L21 may have expanded from. This area was also linked to the Rhine mouth area. This group may have soon eclipsed the maritime advantage of DF27 leaving a pattern of a light scattering of early DF27 as a remnant of a brief period when they had some power in the northern seas. It is possible that NW groups had maritime technology more suited to northern seas. DF27, if linked to maritime beaker, had its major phase of expansion along the Med. which is a much less challenging maritime environment than the Atlantic seas. There is a great chapter of this in Background to Beakers although I think we can expand the discussions into the DNA sphere

http://www.scribd.com/doc/106362709/Fokkens-Nicolis-Eds-2012-Background-to-Beakers

http://www.scribd.com/doc/106362709/Fokkens-Nicolis-Eds-2012-Background-to-Beakers

R.Rocca
05-08-2013, 04:28 PM
Scary but I posted the same to the DF27 forum a short while after you posted the above. I'm assuming you are point out the following chapter:

Chapter 3 - Exploring Agency Behind the Beaker Phenomenon: The Navigator's Tale

http://books.google.com/books?id=57OVD144tUIC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

razyn
05-08-2013, 06:44 PM
Somebody brought this to our attention last fall -- maybe Jean M? I know I sent the link to a guy in Russia who makes sewn-plank boats, Mika Naimark. That was Sept. 24, and I didn't hear back from him, so whatever I had to say on the topic (on WorldFamilies, perhaps) would have begun and ended about then. Good paper, anyway. I guess it now interests more people, on a GG forum, than it did last September. I think of that as progress.

Probably this is redundant, but I don't agree with the characterization of DF27 as "south" compared with other R1b lineages. Just for the record, I know we've beat it to death elsewhere.

Jean M
05-08-2013, 07:32 PM
Somebody brought this to our attention last fall -- maybe Jean M?

It was Bernard S. who first mentioned the book (http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10484.msg133533#msg133533). (Back in December 2010 on my now defunct blog I covered the conference session on which the book was based.) The book is in my digital library.

Webb
05-08-2013, 08:03 PM
The reason why the three blocks may have remained distinct could be something to do with two of them (L21 and DF27) being maritime (one north and one south) and U152 more landlocked. I imagine its pretty hard for landlocked clades to break into networks controlled by people with developed maritime skills, even if they had numerical advantage. As long as maritime routes were important DF27 in the south and L21 in the north Atlantic could have been almost impossible to challenge for U152. You know the jokes about the Swiss Navy!

Equally a very scattered, often island based, group of L21 lineages would probably find it difficult to challenge concentrated landlocked groups. So there could have been a bit of a standoff where L21 dominated as far as north-west or north flowing rivers or north/north-west facing coasts existed. It is possible that DF27 originally had a similar modus operandi aloing the Med. and southern Atlantic areas. They could have been in competition and/or alliance at times and overlapped. L21 looks very much maritime in overall distribution and I have no doubt maritime skills were involved in this. DF27 also may originally have been like this. In fact if DF27 was linked to earliest beaker (maritime beaker) it may even be that small groups preceeded L21 into the north Atlantic before this was challenged by L21 lineages. I know DF27 clades have a massive block in and adjacent to Iberia and along the west Med and south Atlantic BUT in northern Europe does it look coastal? If it does then I think maritime skills (possibly indicated by the light scatter of maritime beaker in the north) may be the reason.

It should probably be asked how maritime skills and beaker using groups came together. Were they there from the start (indicating maritime skills had been present since L11*, L51* or even L23* days. Or did they pick them up only in some areas where beaker and pre-beaker peoples with existing skills blended together? This is very hard to answer given the uncertainty of the move from the Circumpontic sort of area to the west and the routes taken by L11, L51 and P312 westwards. A slow move through the Alps towards Liguria 3500-3000BC as indicated by the spread of copper would not make me think of a strongly maritime tradition. However, the L23XL51 report that recently came out does show that TODAY there is quite a lot of this around coasts. In fact when you combine that with other more detailed reports on Bulgaria etc then a Black and Agean sea distribution seems strong. So the evidence is not clear. It is possible that combining with pre-beaker groups with maritime skills further west was crucial and became a major driver in their expansion.

I have a suspicion that there may have been two phases in beaker-maritime traditions. DF27 might be associated with the maritime beaker expansion and its dating and its geography suggest it might have had a strong grip on the west Med. and a more tentative early role in the north Atlantic. However, quite separate beaker lineages were also capable of combining with locals to improve their maritime skills. To me the most likely area where this would have happened was NW France, a place also where L21 may have expanded from. This area was also linked to the Rhine mouth area. This group may have soon eclipsed the maritime advantage of DF27 leaving a pattern of a light scattering of early DF27 as a remnant of a brief period when they had some power in the northern seas. It is possible that NW groups had maritime technology more suited to northern seas. DF27, if linked to maritime beaker, had its major phase of expansion along the Med. which is a much less challenging maritime environment than the Atlantic seas. There is a great chapter of this in Background to Beakers although I think we can expand the discussions into the DNA sphere

http://www.scribd.com/doc/106362709/Fokkens-Nicolis-Eds-2012-Background-to-Beakers

http://www.scribd.com/doc/106362709/Fokkens-Nicolis-Eds-2012-Background-to-Beakers

Alan, there are a few Z196 clades that are found in the North Sea Coastal areas, particulary on the south coast such as the Netherlands and Denmark. Z220 is rapidly growing in the Netherlands.

razyn
05-08-2013, 08:16 PM
It was Bernard S. who first mentioned the book (http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10484.msg133533#msg133533).

Until I tried to reply, I didn't see that tricky thing you do that cites the thread if one happens to roll one's cursor over the words "first mentioned the book." A neat trick, but invisible unless one scrolls around while reading (I don't). Anyway, we actually discussed it there a couple of months later: http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10484.msg136898#msg136898

In case anybody tries to find the limited discussion that went on after some of us had read it...

Jean M
05-08-2013, 09:00 PM
A neat trick, but invisible unless one scrolls around while reading

Whether you can see links or not may depend on the forum style you are using. Links show up in blue using the default forum style.

razyn
05-08-2013, 09:51 PM
Whether you can see links or not may depend on the forum style you are using. Links show up in blue using the default forum style.

Or maybe they show up on a PC, but not a Mac. Or on some browsers, but not Firefox. Or with a different version of Adobe Acrobat... For whatever reason, I see those imbedded links if (and only if) my cursor touches them, and I haven't changed any style settings here. The ones that begin http:// aren't blue either, but that format looks like something upon which one might wish to click.

Jean M
05-08-2013, 10:27 PM
I'm using Firefox, so that's not the problem. I am using a PC.

[added] Just looked in IE and Chrome could not see the links unless I moused over them, exactly as you report. I realised that this is because the forum has set the style BittenFruit fluid as standard. If you want to see the links, you will have to go to bottom left of the page and change the style to Default, or perhaps another style which shows the links. That style will then appear to you whenever you log in.

alan
05-08-2013, 11:51 PM
Somebody brought this to our attention last fall -- maybe Jean M? I know I sent the link to a guy in Russia who makes sewn-plank boats, Mika Naimark. That was Sept. 24, and I didn't hear back from him, so whatever I had to say on the topic (on WorldFamilies, perhaps) would have begun and ended about then. Good paper, anyway. I guess it now interests more people, on a GG forum, than it did last September. I think of that as progress.

Probably this is redundant, but I don't agree with the characterization of DF27 as "south" compared with other R1b lineages. Just for the record, I know we've beat it to death elsewhere.

A geographical label is always a generalisation. However, I think when looking at the three main blocks as a whole, its fair to characterise DF27 as south-western in the same way it is to characterise L21 as north-western, U152 as central European/Alpine and U106 as north European plain. Its just indicative of their respective zones of heavy dominance. There are of course zones in between where no single one of these major superclades dominates.

Probably the best archaeological correlate for DF27 is maritime bell beaker and if such a thing as a map of this with a dot per sherd/pot existed you would see that it too is superconcentrated in Iberia and along the French Med. shore to Italy with a light scattering up the Atlantic coasts too. That is uncannily similar to DF27. However, as I have posted elsewhere, there is the alternative view that the early maritime beaker could have been non-R1b. That of course raises the problem of explaining the strength of DF27 in Iberia.

alan
05-09-2013, 12:14 AM
I think maritime technology tends to develop where it is most required. Ireland for example has been an island since before the first known human settlers arrived according to most recent experts. It of course remained as island since but despite that almost every cultural phase, pottery and monument type etc that appeared in Britain almost immediately was also known in Ireland. The only period of profound isolation of Ireland was apparently the later mesolithic while the Iron Age represented a period of seriously reduced external contact. Otherwise most of the 8000 years or more of prehistory saw any idea that reached Britain quickly transfered to Ireland in some form and ideas and goods also flowed the other way too. Clearly there was very regular traffic able to cross the Irish Sea. This ability was clearly pre-beaker as can be seen from the movement of Irish porcellanite axes, Antrim flint, close parallels in pottery, lithics, burial monuments, causewayed enclosures etc, parallel development of later Neolithic monuments like passage tombs (with the art and beliefs), henges, timber circles etc, grooved ware etc. So there is no question that Ireland simply had to have had maritime technology capable of crossing the Irish Sea on a regular basis and to a degree that social changes way beyond simple trading could take place. No remains of these are known but some sort of currach skin boat technology is suspected. Log boats are nowhere near as seaworthy. I would say that Ireland and western Britain (the Scottish west coast especially) quite highly developed in terms of maritime skills. Irish contacts with the continent are much more shadowy and its impossible to say something had to come direct from the continent when short hops are more likely. In general Ireland and Britain form almost identical twins culturally in the Neolithic and continental similarities are nowhere near this level. So, I think the Irish Sea was very well developed in terms of martime technology. In I think this is very likely also true of NW France although I wont go into the details. So the future L21 core region was already apparently an area with at least 1500 years of Neolithic maritime networks when beakers arrived. This may have been the key to the success of L21 and it European distribution.