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R.Rocca
10-15-2016, 03:18 PM
Cross posting what I put in the ancient DNA forum, since it is likely of more interest to those here. I uploaded the DF27+ Bell Beaker sample to Gedmatch. As you can see, the difference between Middle/Late Neolithic samples and Bell Beaker is the explosion of Eastern Hunter Gatherer (EHG) ancestry which translates to modern "Baltic".

I0806 Bell Beaker, Quedlinburg, Germany (2431-2150 calBCE)
Haplogroup: R1b-P312+DF27+
GedMatch Number: T253390

Eurogenes K13 Admixture
North_Atlantic 47.02
Baltic 34.52
West_Med 9.10
West_Asian 8.22
East_Med 1.15
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Eurasia K10 CHG Admixture
CHG 13.37
Amerindian -
W_African -
Papuan -
SW_Asian -
S_Indian -
E_Asian -
WHG 38.43
Anatolian_Farmers 18.55
EHG 29.66

Lugus
10-15-2016, 04:20 PM
So he looks like someone coming from east, not from southwest.

razyn
10-15-2016, 05:12 PM
Cross posting what I put in the ancient DNA forum, since it is likely of more interest to those here. I uploaded the DF27+ Bell Beaker sample to Gedmatch.
Now that you have learned how to trick Gedmatch into believing a sample is good enough, can you do the same trick for RISE560? I'm curious whether it would appear autosomally to resemble RISE563, which you've already run, and/or I0806.

razyn
10-15-2016, 06:01 PM
RISE563 and I0806, in their lifetime perhaps not terribly distant cousins (at least paternally), look quite similar in the analyses you posted:

12161

R.Rocca
10-15-2016, 07:29 PM
RISE563 and I0806, in their lifetime perhaps not terribly distant cousins (at least paternally), look quite similar in the analyses you posted:

12161

Yes, it is quite obvious that they were part of the same population. Interestingly, RISE563 was a "migrant" as per an older isotope study, and all signs point to a more eastern origin and not an Iberian one.

MitchellSince1893
10-16-2016, 03:23 PM
I0806 Bell Beaker, Quedlinburg, Germany (2431-2150 calBCE)
Haplogroup: R1b-P312+DF27+
GedMatch Number: T253390

In Gedrosia Eurasia K11 CHG-NAF
# Population Percent
1 WHG 30.99
2 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 29.11
3 Neolthic_Anatolian_Farmer 22.37
4 Caucuses_Hunter_Gatherer 16.45
5 E_African 1.09

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 RISE505_Andronovo @ 12.843130
2 Hungarian @ 18.299294
3 Croatian @ 18.933081
4 English @ 19.194477
5 Ukrainian @ 19.289396
6 Czech @ 19.289743
7 Scottish @ 19.686651
8 Icelandic @ 19.891901
9 Norwegian @ 20.150909
10 Russian @ 20.592775
11 RISE386_Sintashta @ 21.122011
12 Bulgarian @ 22.102198
13 Estonian @ 22.458363
14 Spanish @ 24.651243
15 RISE392_Sintashta @ 25.368382
16 Lithuanian @ 25.421892
17 Albanian @ 25.718275
18 Greek @ 27.207708
19 Tuscan @ 27.362700
20 Scythian_IA @ 28.714092

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 English + Iceman + RISE386_Sintashta + RISE509_Afansievo @ 2.235509
2 Czech + Iceman + RISE386_Sintashta + RISE509_Afansievo @ 2.306419
3 Iceman + RISE386_Sintashta + RISE509_Afansievo + Scottish @ 2.332598
4 Hungarian + Iceman + RISE386_Sintashta + RISE509_Afansievo @ 2.497267
5 Croatian + Iceman + RISE386_Sintashta + RISE509_Afansievo @ 2.513345
6 Iceman + Norwegian + RISE386_Sintashta + RISE509_Afansievo @ 2.701691
7 Icelandic + Iceman + RISE386_Sintashta + RISE509_Afansievo @ 2.734693
8 Estonian + Icelandic + RISE509_Afansievo + Stuttgart @ 2.992337
9 Iceman + RISE386_Sintashta + RISE509_Afansievo + Ukrainian @ 3.001789
10 Iceman + RISE386_Sintashta + RISE509_Afansievo + Spanish @ 3.090616
11 Estonian + Estonian + RISE509_Afansievo + Stuttgart @ 3.140932
12 Estonian + Hungarian + Iceman + RISE509_Afansievo @ 3.208748
13 Czech + Iceman + RISE505_Andronovo + RISE509_Afansievo @ 3.215853
14 Icelandic + Lithuanian + RISE509_Afansievo + Stuttgart @ 3.259147
15 Croatian + Icelandic + Poltavka + Sardinian @ 3.295390
16 Icelandic + Iceman + RISE509_Afansievo + Ukrainian @ 3.308518
17 Iceman + RISE509_Afansievo + Ukrainian + Ukrainian @ 3.313312
18 Estonian + Norwegian + RISE509_Afansievo + Stuttgart @ 3.315618
19 Czech + Czech + Poltavka + Sardinian @ 3.353236
20 Czech + English + Poltavka + Sardinian @ 3.363751

Comparison to brother clade

RISE563 Bell Beaker, Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany
Haplogroup: R-P312+U152+
GedMatch Number: T644357
# Population Percent
1 WHG 41.47
2 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 29.47
3 Neolthic_Anatolian_Farmer 17.52
4 Caucuses_Hunter_Gatherer 6.77
5 Kalash 1.81
6 S_Indian 1.54
7 W_African 1.42

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 RISE505_Andronovo @ 13.793123
2 Estonian @ 14.807712
3 Russian @ 16.414860
4 Icelandic @ 16.562197
5 Norwegian @ 16.937645
6 Lithuanian @ 17.115887
7 Scottish @ 18.425058
8 Ukrainian @ 18.557756
9 Czech @ 18.659878
10 RISE386_Sintashta @ 19.935690
11 English @ 20.150148
12 Hungarian @ 20.712910
13 RISE392_Sintashta @ 22.052643
14 Croatian @ 23.562204
15 Spanish @ 28.886147
16 Bulgarian @ 30.603006
17 Scythian_IA @ 33.711945
18 Albanian @ 35.275482
19 Tuscan @ 36.224682
20 Srubnaya @ 36.780350

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Bichon + Estonian + Karelia_HG + Stuttgart @ 2.926000
2 Bichon + Estonian + RISE510_Afansievo + Stuttgart @ 2.926000
3 Bichon + Estonian + RISE511_Afansievo + Stuttgart @ 2.926000
4 Bichon + Estonian + Samara_Eneolithic + Stuttgart @ 2.926000
5 Bichon + Icelandic + Karelia_HG + Stuttgart @ 2.945701
6 Bichon + Icelandic + RISE510_Afansievo + Stuttgart @ 2.945701
7 Bichon + Icelandic + RISE511_Afansievo + Stuttgart @ 2.945701
8 Bichon + Icelandic + Samara_Eneolithic + Stuttgart @ 2.945701
9 Bichon + Karelia_HG + Norwegian + Stuttgart @ 2.949031
10 Bichon + Norwegian + RISE510_Afansievo + Stuttgart @ 2.949031
11 Bichon + Norwegian + RISE511_Afansievo + Stuttgart @ 2.949031
12 Bichon + Norwegian + Samara_Eneolithic + Stuttgart @ 2.949031
13 Bichon + Iceman + Poltavka + RISE505_Andronovo @ 2.958454
14 Loschbour + RISE505_Andronovo + Stuttgart + Yamnaya @ 2.958621
15 Karelia_HG + Loschbour + Norwegian + Stuttgart @ 2.960135
16 Loschbour + Norwegian + RISE510_Afansievo + Stuttgart @ 2.960135
17 Loschbour + Norwegian + RISE511_Afansievo + Stuttgart @ 2.960135
18 Loschbour + Norwegian + Samara_Eneolithic + Stuttgart @ 2.960135
19 LaBrana1 + RISE505_Andronovo + Stuttgart + Yamnaya @ 2.969227
20 Bichon + RISE505_Andronovo + Stuttgart + Yamnaya @ 2.971527

In both samples RISE505_Andronovo is the closest single population match. Which is not to imply they originated here (see map below), but that they definitely have a pull towards the Pontic–Caspian Steppe rather than towards SW Europe.
https://historyofiranpodcast.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/bc3500_andronovoafanasevo_culture.gif

MitchellSince1893
10-16-2016, 06:18 PM
Looking at the Gedrosia Eurasia K14 Neolithic gedmatch admixture tool allows for 4 population approximation using ancient samples that provides some very small genetic distances.

12191

I0806 DF27 T253390
# Population Percent
1 Afansievo_Yamnaya 46.07
2 Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers 33.22
3 SHG_WHG 12.47
4 Early_European_Farmers 8.24

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Baalberge_MN3 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Afansievo_BA @ 1.169255
2 Baalberge_MN3 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Yamnaya_BA @ 1.169255
3 Corded_Ware_LN1 + Corded_Ware_LN4 + Bell_Beaker_BA7 + Nordic_MN @ 1.203255
4 Andronovo_BA3 + Nordic_BA2 + Nordic_BA2 + Unetice_BA3 @ 1.293814
5 Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + HungaryGamba_CA + Afansievo_BA @ 1.310799
6 Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + HungaryGamba_CA + Yamnaya_BA @ 1.310799
7 Baalberge_MN2 + Corded_Ware_LN4 + Nordic_BA2 + Yamnaya_BA2 @ 1.327810
8 Benzigerode_LN2 + Bell_Beaker_BA7 + Unetice_BA2 + Unetice_BA3 @ 1.382454
9 HungaryGamba_EN1 + Nordic_MN + Yamnaya_BA2 + Yamnaya_BA2 @ 1.416034
10 Lithuanian_LBA + Corded_Ware_BA7 + Unetice_BA2 + Unetice_BA3 @ 1.433279
11 Andronovo_BA4 + Bell_Beaker_BA6 + Nordic_BA2 + Unetice_BA3 @ 1.491355
12 Bell_Beaker_LN1 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_BA7 + Sintashta_BA @ 1.506422
13 Corded_Ware_LN4 + Lithuanian_LBA + Bell_Beaker_BA6 + Nordic_BA2 @ 1.511797
14 Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Corded_Ware_LN1 + Bell_Beaker_BA6 + Unetice_BA3 @ 1.612551
15 Baalberge_MN3 + Corded_Ware_LN1 + Corded_Ware_LN1 + Corded_Ware_LN4 @ 1.613829
16 Baalberge_MN3 + Benzigerode_LN2 + Corded_Ware_LN4 + Stalingrad_EBA @ 1.634512
17 Corded_Ware_LN1 + Corded_Ware_LN1 + Corded_Ware_LN4 + HungaryGamba_CA @ 1.644454
18 Benzigerode_LN2 + Corded_Ware_LN4 + HungaryGamba_CA + Stalingrad_EBA @ 1.652711
19 Corded_Ware_LN1 + Corded_Ware_LN4 + Bell_Beaker_BA6 + Bell_Beaker_BA6 @ 1.676871
20 Benzigerode_LN3 + HungaryGamba_CA + Afansievo_BA + Nordic_BA2 @ 1.692976

RISE563 U152 T644357
# Population Percent
1 Afansievo_Yamnaya 45.36
2 Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers 24.66
3 SHG_WHG 14.22
4 Early_European_Farmers 13.11
5 N_Amerindian 1.71

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Nordic_BA3 @ 1.354102
2 Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Nordic_LBA @ 1.382150
3 Corded_Ware_LN1 + Nordic_LBA + Unetice_BA2 + Unetice_BA2 @ 1.616072
4 Bell_Beaker_LN3 + Bell_Beaker_BA6 + Corded_Ware_BA5 + Nordic_BA2 @ 1.626908
5 Bell_Beaker_LN2 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Corded_Ware_BA7 + Sintashta_BA @ 1.652865
6 Bell_Beaker_LN3 + Corded_Ware_LN1 + Nordic_BA2 + Sintashta_BA @ 1.692473
7 Corded_Ware_LN1 + Nordic_BA3 + Unetice_BA2 + Unetice_BA2 @ 1.702498
8 LBK_EN1 + Bell_Beaker_BA6 + Yamnaya_BA2 + Samara_HG @ 1.772411
9 Corded_Ware_LN4 + Nordic_BA2 + Nordic_LBA + Unetice_BA2 @ 1.773498
10 HungaryGamba_BA1 + Corded_Ware_BA5 + Nordic_BA2 + Unetice_BA3 @ 1.776996
11 Bell_Beaker_LN3 + Lithuanian_LBA + Montenegro_BA2 + Samara_HG @ 1.787556
12 AG2 + Montenegro_BA2 + Unetice_BA3 + Nordic_IA @ 1.812786
13 Bell_Beaker_LN3 + Benzigerode_LN2 + Corded_Ware_BA7 + Sintashta_BA @ 1.818162
14 Benzigerode_LN3 + Andronovo_BA3 + Nordic_MN + Yamnaya_BA2 @ 1.821553
15 Baalberge_MN2 + Bell_Beaker_LN3 + Afansievo_BA + Samara_HG @ 1.841590
16 Baalberge_MN2 + Bell_Beaker_LN3 + Yamnaya_BA + Samara_HG @ 1.841590
17 AG2 + LBK_EN1 + Bell_Beaker_BA6 + Yamnaya_BA2 @ 1.870995
18 Benzigerode_LN3 + HungaryGamba_CA + Andronovo_BA4 + Corded_Ware_BA5 @ 1.901485
19 Corded_Ware_LN4 + Andronovo_BA4 + Remedello_BA + Samara_HG @ 1.919737
20 Corded_Ware_LN4 + Nordic_BA2 + Nordic_BA3 + Unetice_BA2 @ 1.925828

For reference:
Afanasevo culture found in "south Siberia, occupying the Minusinsk Basin and the Altai Mountains from 3300 to 2500 BC"
Baalberge Group "Late neolithic culture whose remains are found in central Germany. It is named after its first findspot: on the Schneiderberg at Baalberge, Salzlandkreis, Saxony-Anhalt.

Webb
10-17-2016, 01:29 PM
Looking at the Gedrosia Eurasia K14 Neolithic gedmatch admixture tool allows for 4 population approximation using ancient samples that provides some very small genetic distances.

12191

I0806 DF27 T253390
# Population Percent
1 Afansievo_Yamnaya 46.07
2 Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers 33.22
3 SHG_WHG 12.47
4 Early_European_Farmers 8.24

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Baalberge_MN3 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Afansievo_BA @ 1.169255
2 Baalberge_MN3 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Yamnaya_BA @ 1.169255
3 Corded_Ware_LN1 + Corded_Ware_LN4 + Bell_Beaker_BA7 + Nordic_MN @ 1.203255
4 Andronovo_BA3 + Nordic_BA2 + Nordic_BA2 + Unetice_BA3 @ 1.293814
5 Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + HungaryGamba_CA + Afansievo_BA @ 1.310799
6 Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + HungaryGamba_CA + Yamnaya_BA @ 1.310799
7 Baalberge_MN2 + Corded_Ware_LN4 + Nordic_BA2 + Yamnaya_BA2 @ 1.327810
8 Benzigerode_LN2 + Bell_Beaker_BA7 + Unetice_BA2 + Unetice_BA3 @ 1.382454
9 HungaryGamba_EN1 + Nordic_MN + Yamnaya_BA2 + Yamnaya_BA2 @ 1.416034
10 Lithuanian_LBA + Corded_Ware_BA7 + Unetice_BA2 + Unetice_BA3 @ 1.433279
11 Andronovo_BA4 + Bell_Beaker_BA6 + Nordic_BA2 + Unetice_BA3 @ 1.491355
12 Bell_Beaker_LN1 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_BA7 + Sintashta_BA @ 1.506422
13 Corded_Ware_LN4 + Lithuanian_LBA + Bell_Beaker_BA6 + Nordic_BA2 @ 1.511797
14 Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Corded_Ware_LN1 + Bell_Beaker_BA6 + Unetice_BA3 @ 1.612551
15 Baalberge_MN3 + Corded_Ware_LN1 + Corded_Ware_LN1 + Corded_Ware_LN4 @ 1.613829
16 Baalberge_MN3 + Benzigerode_LN2 + Corded_Ware_LN4 + Stalingrad_EBA @ 1.634512
17 Corded_Ware_LN1 + Corded_Ware_LN1 + Corded_Ware_LN4 + HungaryGamba_CA @ 1.644454
18 Benzigerode_LN2 + Corded_Ware_LN4 + HungaryGamba_CA + Stalingrad_EBA @ 1.652711
19 Corded_Ware_LN1 + Corded_Ware_LN4 + Bell_Beaker_BA6 + Bell_Beaker_BA6 @ 1.676871
20 Benzigerode_LN3 + HungaryGamba_CA + Afansievo_BA + Nordic_BA2 @ 1.692976

RISE563 U152 T644357
# Population Percent
1 Afansievo_Yamnaya 45.36
2 Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers 24.66
3 SHG_WHG 14.22
4 Early_European_Farmers 13.11
5 N_Amerindian 1.71

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Nordic_BA3 @ 1.354102
2 Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Nordic_LBA @ 1.382150
3 Corded_Ware_LN1 + Nordic_LBA + Unetice_BA2 + Unetice_BA2 @ 1.616072
4 Bell_Beaker_LN3 + Bell_Beaker_BA6 + Corded_Ware_BA5 + Nordic_BA2 @ 1.626908
5 Bell_Beaker_LN2 + Bell_Beaker_LN6 + Corded_Ware_BA7 + Sintashta_BA @ 1.652865
6 Bell_Beaker_LN3 + Corded_Ware_LN1 + Nordic_BA2 + Sintashta_BA @ 1.692473
7 Corded_Ware_LN1 + Nordic_BA3 + Unetice_BA2 + Unetice_BA2 @ 1.702498
8 LBK_EN1 + Bell_Beaker_BA6 + Yamnaya_BA2 + Samara_HG @ 1.772411
9 Corded_Ware_LN4 + Nordic_BA2 + Nordic_LBA + Unetice_BA2 @ 1.773498
10 HungaryGamba_BA1 + Corded_Ware_BA5 + Nordic_BA2 + Unetice_BA3 @ 1.776996
11 Bell_Beaker_LN3 + Lithuanian_LBA + Montenegro_BA2 + Samara_HG @ 1.787556
12 AG2 + Montenegro_BA2 + Unetice_BA3 + Nordic_IA @ 1.812786
13 Bell_Beaker_LN3 + Benzigerode_LN2 + Corded_Ware_BA7 + Sintashta_BA @ 1.818162
14 Benzigerode_LN3 + Andronovo_BA3 + Nordic_MN + Yamnaya_BA2 @ 1.821553
15 Baalberge_MN2 + Bell_Beaker_LN3 + Afansievo_BA + Samara_HG @ 1.841590
16 Baalberge_MN2 + Bell_Beaker_LN3 + Yamnaya_BA + Samara_HG @ 1.841590
17 AG2 + LBK_EN1 + Bell_Beaker_BA6 + Yamnaya_BA2 @ 1.870995
18 Benzigerode_LN3 + HungaryGamba_CA + Andronovo_BA4 + Corded_Ware_BA5 @ 1.901485
19 Corded_Ware_LN4 + Andronovo_BA4 + Remedello_BA + Samara_HG @ 1.919737
20 Corded_Ware_LN4 + Nordic_BA2 + Nordic_BA3 + Unetice_BA2 @ 1.925828

For reference:
Afanasevo culture found in "south Siberia, occupying the Minusinsk Basin and the Altai Mountains from 3300 to 2500 BC"
Baalberge Group "Late neolithic culture whose remains are found in central Germany. It is named after its first findspot: on the Schneiderberg at Baalberge, Salzlandkreis, Saxony-Anhalt.

Did you, perchance, run your own kit through the Gedrosia Eurasia K14 Neolithic gedmatch admixture tool to compare against these two samples?

MitchellSince1893
10-17-2016, 04:22 PM
Did you, perchance, run your own kit through the Gedrosia Eurasia K14 Neolithic gedmatch admixture tool to compare against these two samples?

I just did. It's quite different from the results above. I have three time more Early European Farmer and 1/3rd the Afansievo_Yamnaya.

# Population Percent
1 Early_European_Farmers 41.29
2 Afansievo_Yamnaya 17.61
3 Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers 13.93
4 SHG_WHG 12.59
5 S_Indian 4.44
6 S_Amerindian 3.46
7 SW_Asian 3.16
8 Kalash 2.48

My father gets similar results
# Population Percent
1 Early_European_Farmers 44.49
2 Afansievo_Yamnaya 17.16
3 SHG_WHG 14.28
4 Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers 9.99
5 SW_Asian 8.38
6 Kalash 2.6
7 Siberian 1.43
8 N_Amerindian 1.34
9 S_Indian 0.18
10 S_Amerindian 0.15

Webb
10-17-2016, 04:43 PM
I just did. It's quite different from the results above. I have three time more Early European Farmer and 1/3rd the Afansievo_Yamnaya.

# Population Percent
1 Early_European_Farmers 41.29
2 Afansievo_Yamnaya 17.61
3 Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers 13.93
4 SHG_WHG 12.59
5 S_Indian 4.44
6 S_Amerindian 3.46
7 SW_Asian 3.16
8 Kalash 2.48

My father gets similar results
# Population Percent
1 Early_European_Farmers 44.49
2 Afansievo_Yamnaya 17.16
3 SHG_WHG 14.28
4 Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers 9.99
5 SW_Asian 8.38
6 Kalash 2.6
7 Siberian 1.43
8 N_Amerindian 1.34
9 S_Indian 0.18
10 S_Amerindian 0.15

My results are very close to yours. So the BB samples were heavier in Yamnaya and lighter in Early European Farmer admixture then today's population?

Ric
10-17-2016, 05:44 PM
Yes, it is quite obvious that they were part of the same population. Interestingly, RISE563 was a "migrant" as per an older isotope study, and all signs point to a more eastern origin and not an Iberian one.

Can you elaborate on this story : what isotope from what artifact (Copper from a sword for example ?) and did they found other artifacts from the steppes that this migrant could have carry ?
Also, is RISE563 the same individual than RISE560 ?
And also, is I0806 really confirmed DF27+ ? I thought there was still some uncertainty and that RISE560 was the only South German Bell Beaker that was DF27+ for sure. Thanks.

R.Rocca
10-17-2016, 06:18 PM
Can you elaborate on this story : what isotope from what artifact (Copper from a sword for example ?) and did they found other artifacts from the steppes that this migrant could have carry ?
Also, is RISE563 the same individual than RISE560 ?
And also, is I0806 really confirmed DF27+ ? I thought there was still some uncertainty and that RISE560 was the only South German Bell Beaker that was DF27+ for sure. Thanks.

1. An isotope study was done on RISE563's tooth and it showed that he spent his childhood in a different area than where he spent his adulthood.
2. RISE563 (U152+) is not the same individual as RISE560.
3. Correct... there is no doubt I0806 is DF27+. It is the only confirmed DF27+ ancient DNA sample thus far.
4. RISE560 is R1b1a2-L150.1. He tested positive for private SNP M12124 that is way downstream of a modern DF27 sample. So you know, many ancient samples are positive for SNPs that are singletons in other samples... most are due to low coverage or DNA damage. RISE560 may turn out to be DF27, but not because of M12124+ call.

razyn
10-17-2016, 07:24 PM
4. RISE560 is R1b1a2-L150.1. He tested positive for private SNP M12124 that is way downstream of a modern DF27 sample. So you know, many ancient samples are positive for SNPs that are singletons in other samples... most are due to low coverage or DNA damage. RISE560 may turn out to be DF27, but not because of M12124+ call.
I probably agree with your conclusion, but mainly because it's "way downstream," and the undated RISE560 seems too old. But (a) we don't really know how old either the RISE560 sample, or those mutations, are; and (b) M12124 hasn't yet turned up in any modern sample that isn't DF27+. So I'd still hold open the possibility that RISE560 is just from a small branch in an early DF27+, Z209+ etc. population that we haven't yet tested very much. As distinguished from "private," and also from recurrent. I admit, it's not the only, and perhaps not the likeliest, explanation.

MitchellSince1893
10-17-2016, 07:51 PM
My results are very close to yours. So the BB samples were heavier in Yamnaya and lighter in Early European Farmer admixture then today's population?

It would appear so. Looking at the 4 pop results from this particular gedmatch tool, both samples seem to be a mixture of ancient Central European (e.g. Bell Beaker and/or Corded ware) and ancient eastern European/Pontic Steppe (e.g. Afansievo_Yamnaya)

Ric
10-17-2016, 10:58 PM
RISE560 may turn out to be DF27, but not because of M12124+ call.This is a fascinating to find two different clades (U152 and Df27) as real individuals so close to their common ancestor. But regarding RISE560, as razyn suggests, if you can manage to run the gedmatch test for ancient populations, and it turns out that RISE560 is close to I0806, at least as close to him than he is to RISE563, then it will be another indication to support that RISE560 is DF27.
I assume those Bell beakers were a small population and that not many different male haplogroups were present. Perhaps there were just U152, df27 and other P312 and that's it. Am I wrong ?

What about their Mitochondrial haplogroup? You mentioned that RISE563 is likely a migrant from the East, so RISE563 and his mother may not be of the same Mt group that the 'local' women found with these BB guys.

R.Rocca
10-18-2016, 07:49 PM
This is a fascinating to find two different clades (U152 and Df27) as real individuals so close to their common ancestor. But regarding RISE560, as razyn suggests, if you can manage to run the gedmatch test for ancient populations, and it turns out that RISE560 is close to I0806, at least as close to him than he is to RISE563, then it will be another indication to support that RISE560 is DF27.
I assume those Bell beakers were a small population and that not many different male haplogroups were present. Perhaps there were just U152, df27 and other P312 and that's it. Am I wrong ?

What about their Mitochondrial haplogroup? You mentioned that RISE563 is likely a migrant from the East, so RISE563 and his mother may not be of the same Mt group that the 'local' women found with these BB guys.

David had run RISE560 in the past and it looks a lot more like RISE563 than it does I0806. RISE560 and RISE563 seem closer to "Corded Ware". Either way, that does not mean that RISE560 wasn't DF27+.

razyn
10-18-2016, 08:01 PM
David had run RISE560 in the past
Has somebody uploaded it to Gedmatch? I don't think I've seen it on anybody's list here. If it isn't on Gedmatch I don't believe Davidsky's separate comparisons, even if both were run on a program he wrote, would have the same stats and basis for comparisons. My impression was that it was considered too degraded or low-coverage to upload. And I thought your new parlor trick (of including the no-calls to expand the upload's file size) might be able to finesse that.

R.Rocca
10-18-2016, 08:38 PM
Has somebody uploaded it to Gedmatch? I don't think I've seen it on anybody's list here. If it isn't on Gedmatch I don't believe Davidsky's separate comparisons, even if both were run on a program he wrote, would have the same stats and basis for comparisons. My impression was that it was considered too degraded or low-coverage to upload. And I thought your new parlor trick (of including the no-calls to expand the upload's file size) might be able to finesse that.

I'm basing this on David's runs outside of Gedmatch that have used all Bell Beaker samples including I0806, RISE560 and RISE563. These samples, even the poor quality ones take hours to process, so I will not be able to upload it soon.

R.Rocca
10-19-2016, 01:32 AM
I'm basing this on David's runs outside of Gedmatch that have used all Bell Beaker samples including I0806, RISE560 and RISE563. These samples, even the poor quality ones take hours to process, so I will not be able to upload it soon.

I ran it tonight. Here's the result. Again, keep in mind that this is a very low quality samples and the results start getting out of whack the lower the quality...

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8672-List-of-ancient-samples-on-GEDmatch&p=193209&viewfull=1#post193209

Sammy Andrews
10-19-2016, 04:07 AM
All three major P312 subclades in modern Western Europeans have been found in Bell Beaker or descendants of Bell Beaker(The L21 in Ireland)! Maybe Bell Beaker culture had a lot to do with genes and ethnicity after all. I can't wait to see Bell Beaker DNA from France and Spain now.

R.Rocca
10-20-2016, 11:32 PM
All three major P312 subclades in modern Western Europeans have been found in Bell Beaker or descendants of Bell Beaker(The L21 in Ireland)! Maybe Bell Beaker culture had a lot to do with genes and ethnicity after all. I can't wait to see Bell Beaker DNA from France and Spain now.

Just as impressive, all three samples (U152, DF27 and L21) look a lot like each other autosomally even though there is quite a bit of geographical distance between them.

Ric
10-20-2016, 11:57 PM
Low coverage sample:
T185931 - RISE560 Bell Beaker - Ausburg, Germany

Eurogenes K13 Admixture
North_Atlantic 71.16
Baltic 28.68
West_Med -
West_Asian -
East_Med -
Red_Sea 0.16
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Why so much North Atlantic and Baltic in RISE560, and since it refers to modern populations, does it mean most modern autosomal DNA in these Northern regions originates from the South German Bell Beakers/Corded Ware ?

Kvenlander
11-15-2016, 07:03 PM
Why so much North Atlantic and Baltic in RISE560, and since it refers to modern populations, does it mean most modern autosomal DNA in these Northern regions originates from the South German Bell Beakers/Corded Ware ?

Or the other way round. Traditionally the archeology in Finland has concluded that the Corded Ware culture came to Finland through the area what is today the Baltic countries. So, it would be plausible that same autosomal elements are present in the Balts and in South Germany.

As I understand it, the expansion of Corded Ware was very rapid, so I do not know whether it is possible to conclude the direction of that expansion but then again my knowledge of that is very limited, so the expert will know better.

Ric
11-16-2016, 10:12 PM
1. An isotope study was done on RISE563's tooth and it showed that he spent his childhood in a different area than where he spent his adulthood.
2. RISE563 (U152+) is not the same individual as RISE560.
3. Correct... there is no doubt I0806 is DF27+. It is the only confirmed DF27+ ancient DNA sample thus far.
4. RISE560 is R1b1a2-L150.1. He tested positive for private SNP M12124 that is way downstream of a modern DF27 sample. So you know, many ancient samples are positive for SNPs that are singletons in other samples... most are due to low coverage or DNA damage. RISE560 may turn out to be DF27, but not because of M12124+ call.

I should have asked before, do we know in which area was RISE560 living in his childhood, at what age he migrated and what diet change he experienced when he came to Augsburg ?
My guess would be he had more milk as a kid (steppe herders with lots of cows) and less milk and more 'wild' meat (as opposed to cow meat) at Augsburg (more forests, less grass).

Tomenable
01-24-2017, 10:31 PM
Have all of these genomes listed below been uploaded to GEDmatch, or only some of them?

What about uploading them also to DNA Land?:

R1b1a1a2a1a2b-U152:

Sample I0805, Quedlinburg, Bell Beaker culture, 2467-2142 BC.
Sample RISE563, Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Bell Beaker culture.

About I0805:


I0805. This 35-45 year-old individual is osteologically and genetically male. The body was buried in NO-SW orientation with the head in the north facing east. Grave goods are scarce and include three silex arrowheads, a few potsherds, and animal bones. A notable observation from the physical anthropological examination is traits at the acetabulum and the femur head suggesting that the individual frequently rode horses.

R1b1a1a2a1a2b1-U152>L2:

Sample RISE471, Untermeitingen, Middle Bronze Age Tumulus Culture.

R1b1a1a2a1a2a-DF27:

Sample I0806, Quedlinburg, Bell Beaker culture, 2431-2150 BC.

R1b1a1a2a1a2e-DF19:

Sample 6DRIF-23, Eboracum (modern York), 100-400 AD.

R1b1a1a2a1a1c1a-U106>S497:

Sample 3DRIF-16, Eboracum (modern York), 100-400 AD.

R1b1a1a2a1a1c1a1-U106>S497>DF98:

Sample 6DRIF-3, Eboracum (modern York), 100-400 AD.

Tomenable
01-25-2017, 12:58 AM
Some autosomal DNA comparison of my results and I0806:


Ancient Eurasia K6:


1) I0806, Bell Beaker (haplogroup: R1b-DF27):


Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 49.45
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 25.74
3 Natufian 24.81


Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Steppe_MLBA 7.35
2 Estonian 8.33
3 Lithuanian 8.5


2) Tomenable, Polish (haplogroup: R1b-DF27):


Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 43.79
2 Natufian 34.21
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.69
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1
5 East_Asian 0.31


Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Ukrainian 2.07
2 Norwegian 2.41
3 Czech 2.78


Eurasia K10 CHG:


1) I0806, Bell Beaker (haplogroup: R1b-DF27):


Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 WHG 38.43
2 EHG 29.66
3 Anatolian_Farmers 18.55
4 CHG 13.37


Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Icelandic 15.46
2 Norwegian 15.86
3 Ukrainian 15.99


2) Tomenable, Polish (haplogroup: R1b-DF27):


Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 WHG 41.56
2 CHG 21.71
3 EHG 16.18
4 Anatolian_Farmers 15.25
5 SW_Asian 4.34
6 Amerindian 0.77
7 Papuan 0.18


Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Czech 4.03
2 Scottish 4.04
3 Ukrainian 4.36

Tomenable
01-25-2017, 02:38 AM
In calculators which use ancient components, Bell Beaker man I0806 plots to the east of Poland. See for example how much of ANE and EHG that Beaker man has. He has more ANE and EHG than I do.

But in Eurogenes K36, I0806 scores a lot of "Iberian" and "Basque". These are modern components. Obviously the reason why he scores them, is that modern Iberians are descended from men like him. But modern Iberians are only partially descended from men like I0806. They are mostly Neolithic EEF-descended.

This is why in calculators which use ancient components (like WHG, ANE, EEF, EHG) Bell Beaker men plot closer to modern North-Eastern Europeans, who have similar proportions of these components to Bell Beakers. But in calculators which use modern components, shaped by recent drift, Bell Beakers plot more to the west, because Beaker population contributed more ancestry to ancestors of modern Western Europeans.

=============

Eurogenes K36:

1) I0806 (haplogroup R1b-DF27):

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 4.85
Central_African -
Central_Euro 1.69
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan -
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 16.01
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 7.57
Fennoscandian -
French 9.96
Iberian 22.70
Indo-Chinese -
Italian -
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 9.40
North_Caucasian 6.59
North_Sea 21.24
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med -

2) Tomenable (haplogroup R1b-DF27):

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 0.91
Central_African -
Central_Euro 9.80
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 8.54
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 22.87
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 13.99
Fennoscandian 9.32
French 4.93
Iberian 0.39
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 5.96
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 8.14
North_Caucasian 2.15
North_Sea 11.81
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med 1.20