PDA

View Full Version : Got my results- middle eastern???



pmv74
10-20-2016, 07:31 PM
I received my Ancestry DNA results as I was curious what it would come back as. My known background is both parents are Italian decent. My moms parents were from Naples and Potenza areas and my dads parents are from the Calabria and Central Sicily areas. I figured the test would most likely come back as Italian and it did. The results were as follows

Italy/Greece- 73%
Middle East- 13%
Causcaus- 10%
Spanish- 1%
North African- <1%
European Jewish- <1%
Great Britain- <1%

The Italian was no surprise. I'm surprised I don't have much in the line of Northern, & Western Europe. Where did all that middle eastern come from? And when did it get introduced to my line? The Causcaus and Middle East regions overlap quite a bit on ancestry's. I'm assuming I am mostly Arab, Turkish, and Persian from those regions. I ran my kit through Gedmatch and it's shows even more middle eastern Ancestry than the Ancestry DNA showed, upwards close to 45-50 percent in some calculators. Some of the gedmatch calculators said I had Jewish ancestry as well. The best guess from looking at it I'm 3/4 Italian/Sicilian and 1/4 non-specific middle eastern. I wish they could break down the Ancestry more regionally.

Aquilifer
10-20-2016, 08:32 PM
Your Middle East and Caucasus scores come from prehistoric migrations from 10,000-3,000 years ago, from the Neolithic and Bronze Age periods. It has nothing to do with modern populations, that's just how the algos these tests use label it.

pmv74
10-20-2016, 10:23 PM
That would make sense that the middle eastern portion is ancient DNA. As far as I can trace back my family and through stories past down they have always been from Italy. Although in my research, I have found that two of the towns that my grandmother and grandfather come from in Calabria and Sicily were known to be Arab towns back in the Middle Ages, so some of it could be more recent possibly but I will never know for sure. Someday DNA testing may be able to separate ancient and more recent Ancestry. I feel like this whole field is so new, I wouldn't be suprised if my test results change some over time and get more accurate

Aquilifer
10-20-2016, 10:37 PM
That would make sense that the middle eastern portion is ancient DNA. As far as I can trace back my family and through stories past down they have always been from Italy. Although in my research, I have found that two of the towns that my grandmother and grandfather come from in Calabria and Sicily were known to be Arab towns back in the Middle Ages, so some of it could be more recent possibly but I will never know for sure. Someday DNA testing may be able to separate ancient and more recent Ancestry. I feel like this whole field is so new, I wouldn't be suprised if my test results change some over time and get more accurate

Which towns exactly? All the Moors who survived the Norman conquest (plus native converts) were forcibly removed from Sicily by the 12th/13th century and there were no "Arab" towns in Calabria; the latter were subjected to Saracen raids along the coast but they never occupied any territory for any period of time.

pmv74
10-21-2016, 12:21 AM
Reggio Calabria and Enna in Sicily. Still learning about their histories it seems many different ethnicities and peoples have gone through those areas through history, even if they didn't leave an imprint on the people they impacted the culture and language. Being a history buff, I find this stuff pretty fascinating

Principe
10-21-2016, 04:47 AM
I received my Ancestry DNA results as I was curious what it would come back as. My known background is both parents are Italian decent. My moms parents were from Naples and Potenza areas and my dads parents are from the Calabria and Central Sicily areas. I figured the test would most likely come back as Italian and it did. The results were as follows

Italy/Greece- 73%
Middle East- 13%
Causcaus- 10%
Spanish- 1%
North African- <1%
European Jewish- <1%
Great Britain- <1%

The Italian was no surprise. I'm surprised I don't have much in the line of Northern, & Western Europe. Where did all that middle eastern come from? And when did it get introduced to my line? The Causcaus and Middle East regions overlap quite a bit on ancestry's. I'm assuming I am mostly Arab, Turkish, and Persian from those regions. I ran my kit through Gedmatch and it's shows even more middle eastern Ancestry than the Ancestry DNA showed, upwards close to 45-50 percent in some calculators. Some of the gedmatch calculators said I had Jewish ancestry as well. The best guess from looking at it I'm 3/4 Italian/Sicilian and 1/4 non-specific middle eastern. I wish they could break down the Ancestry more regionally.

pmv74, did you take a Y-dna test? What town are you from in Potenza? I am half Lucanian (Basilicata) and half Sicilian. My fathers family is from Potenza province and my mothers from Agrigento province in Sicily. Definitely Italian is to be expected after all thats all our recent ancestors, in general Southern Italians do not get much if not any Northern or Western European so don't worry your not different, in terms of the Arab towns in Calabria and Sicily, they were Berber towns meaning North African, your % is very low and your tests reflect barely if not zero ancestry from the Emirate of Sicily period, versus to compare to my results I have 4% North African and every test gives me this result, so its confirmed. Calabria had very short lived emirates to my recollection there was one in Cosenza, possibly Reggio held Muslims fleeing the Normans, maybe? There was cases of conversions and the ones who didn't were deported to Lucera in Foggia and surrounding villages. There was also emirates in both Basilicata and Campania, the Amalfi coast was under the Saracens for a brief period of time and in Basilicata there was Tricarico and Tursi which is general knowledge in the region, I was in Italy this summer and my cousins were telling me about the history of Tursi as its a neighbouring village.

In terms of your Middle East and Caucus, the Caucasian component would reflect ancient migration, thats 10% solved in your case, the 13% Middle Eastern I wouldn't go to early to say its ancient migration, there could be something there. Possibilities to explore would be the following during the Roman Empire, Roman citizenship was granted to all its citizens meaning that people can move wherever they want, Italy was the richest at the time chances are more people would want to move to Italy, many Syrians came during this period. The Byzantines had control of all the places where your family is from, Byzantines had the Eastern Mediterranean so its not impossible that some migration had during this period. There is also the possibility of Phoenician ancestors as they were a maritime mediterranean trading super power, they had two settlements in Sicily and they would live in the Greek colonies of Magna Graecia (Southern Italy), and there is the possibility of Jewish ancestry as well, Southern Italy had a Jewish population up until the Inquisition, many were forced to convert and would become New Christians, even though your Jewish ancestry is low on the test it cannot be ruled out.

I too agree it would be better if they break it down more regionally, as time goes on and the methods progress I think eventually they will.

pmv74
10-21-2016, 04:59 PM
Principe, I have not taken y-DNA test. My grandmother and her side of the family are from the town of potenza in basilicata. I think depending on where you are from the DNA could vary slightly from person to person. Some towns may have have more Greek and some may have more Arab or North African or Norman. But from what I'm learning most southern Italians and Sicilians have mostly the same DNA regardless. The Jewish populations in Italy you also spoke of shows up on a lot when I run the gedmatch calculators in the oracles. The Ashkanazi and Sephardic Jewish are always one of my top matches just below the eastern Sicilian and southern Italian populations. So maybe the middle eastern results I got from AncestryDna are Jewish in nature

MatAust21
10-21-2016, 05:17 PM
Very typical for southern Italians and Greeks to score West Asian/Mid-Eastern in most tests.

Could be something ancient, but perhaps even something more recent and historical.

Ancient Romans wrote often about how Levantines/West Asians were the main group of immigrants to the Italian peninsula. Since southern Italy is geographically closer, most of them would have settled there, but even Northern Italy seems to have been affected:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1Y6nfb7Ka8E/Uaz_N0WrLSI/AAAAAAAAI24/XYZxZo9yHUk/s1600/iberia.jpg

Principe
10-21-2016, 07:15 PM
Principe, I have not taken y-DNA test. My grandmother and her side of the family are from the town of potenza in basilicata. I think depending on where you are from the DNA could vary slightly from person to person. Some towns may have have more Greek and some may have more Arab or North African or Norman. But from what I'm learning most southern Italians and Sicilians have mostly the same DNA regardless. The Jewish populations in Italy you also spoke of shows up on a lot when I run the gedmatch calculators in the oracles. The Ashkanazi and Sephardic Jewish are always one of my top matches just below the eastern Sicilian and southern Italian populations. So maybe the middle eastern results I got from AncestryDna are Jewish in nature

You should take the Y-test it can tell your deep paternal ancestry, very interesting. Potenza isn't technically a town as its the capital of Basilicata and has a population of 67 000, its still relatively small. Norman ancestry would be easier to detect as that would appear as Northern European blood or getting a typical Northern Y line. In terms of Greek, North African, Arab, and Levantine it all depends where and which villages you come from. Southern Italians, Sicilians and Maltese are virtually inseparable in terms of autosomal dna, we are half way between Middle Eastern and Western European. With Jewish Dna yes we are very close and share an ancestral component with Jewish populations to have Jewish dna that can be verified through Y, Mt and Triangulation on Gedmatch, Its very possible that the Middle Eastern showing up in your results might in fact be Jewish, all four regions you are from had Jewish populations, there has been Jewish communities in Italy dating back to Roman Republic era.

tippy
10-21-2016, 07:20 PM
Can you please share some gedmatch calcs and oracles? Maybe something like eurogenes k15 v2, dodecad v3 and mdlp k23b?

Principe
10-21-2016, 07:20 PM
Very typical for southern Italians and Greeks to score West Asian/Mid-Eastern in most tests.

Could be something ancient, but perhaps even something more recent and historical.

Ancient Romans wrote often about how Levantines/West Asians were the main group of immigrants to the Italian peninsula. Since southern Italy is geographically closer, most of them would have settled there, but even Northern Italy seems to have been affected:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1Y6nfb7Ka8E/Uaz_N0WrLSI/AAAAAAAAI24/XYZxZo9yHUk/s1600/iberia.jpg

MatAust21, yes it is very true, Southern Italians even manage to cluster closer to islander Greeks than Mainland Greeks, both will get some West Asian/Middle Eastern blood, Southern Italians have more Levantine dna than Greeks though.

Two good examples of Levantine immigrants to Italy would be:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollodorus_of_Damascus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_the_Arab

The Eastern Mediterranean spoke Greek as a lingua franca during this period of time, and so did Southern Italy, so why couldn't Greek speaking Eastern Mediterranean peoples immigrate to the Greek speaking Southern Italy.

pmv74
10-21-2016, 09:58 PM
Here are some of my gedmatch results I got when uploaded my Ancestry DNA.


Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent
1
East_Med
28.96
2
West_Med
19.04
3
West_Asian
15.52
4
Atlantic
13.61
5
Baltic
7.92
6
North_Sea
7.37
7
Red_Sea
6.56


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 South_Italian @ 3.156549
2 East_Sicilian @ 4.753457
3 Central_Greek @ 5.327950
4 Italian_Abruzzo @ 8.583786
5 Ashkenazi @ 8.814635
6 Italian_Jewish @ 8.859124
7 West_Sicilian @ 9.067664
8 Sephardic_Jewish @ 9.237617
9 Algerian_Jewish @ 10.119609
10 Greek @ 11.128934
11 Greek_Thessaly @ 12.465852
12 Tunisian_Jewish @ 13.511530
13 Tuscan @ 14.208934
14 Cyprian @ 15.869131
15 Libyan_Jewish @ 16.057468
16 Lebanese_Muslim @ 19.984478
17 Bulgarian @ 20.377598
18 Syrian @ 20.702995
19 Turkish @ 21.263063
20 North_Italian @ 21.750952

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% South_Italian +50% South_Italian @ 3.156549


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% South_Italian +25% South_Italian +25% South_Italian @ 3.156549


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 East_Sicilian + South_Italian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 3.106980
2 South_Italian + South_Italian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 3.156549
3 Central_Greek + South_Italian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 3.202512
4 East_Sicilian + East_Sicilian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 3.424587
5 Central_Greek + East_Sicilian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 3.470289
6 Central_Greek + Central_Greek + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 3.666767
7 Ashkenazi + South_Italian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 3.679619
8 Cyprian + South_Italian + South_Italian + Tuscan @ 3.684721
9 Greek + South_Italian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 3.692740
10 Cyprian + East_Sicilian + South_Italian + Tuscan @ 3.729389
11 Greek + Sephardic_Jewish + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 3.755389
12 Central_Greek + Cyprian + South_Italian + Tuscan @ 3.761352
13 Central_Greek + Sephardic_Jewish + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 3.766381
14 Greek_Thessaly + Sephardic_Jewish + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 3.796678
15 Algerian_Jewish + Central_Greek + Central_Greek + South_Italian @ 3.856594
16 Central_Greek + Central_Greek + Sephardic_Jewish + South_Italian @ 3.859017
17 Algerian_Jewish + Central_Greek + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 3.863596
18 Greek + Italian_Jewish + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 3.873282
19 Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 3.897297
20 Central_Greek + East_Sicilian + Sephardic_Jewish + South_Italian @ 3.899399

Done.

Elapsed time 0.9426 seconds.






Dodecad V3 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

The GEDmatch version of Oracle may give slightly different results from Dienekes version. The GEDmatch version uses FST weighting in its calculations.

Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent
1
Mediterranean
37.22
2
West_Asian
23.73
3
West_European
18.72
4
Southwest_Asian
12.47
5
Northwest_African
3.86
6
East_European
2.82


Finished reading population data. 227 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Ashkenazi @ 3.522691
2 Ashkenazy_Jews @ 4.991911
3 Morocco_Jews @ 7.311844
4 S_Italian_Sicilian @ 9.043478
5 C_Italian @ 10.225924
6 Sicilian @ 11.961273
7 O_Italian @ 12.284328
8 Sephardic_Jews @ 12.414653
9 S_Italian @ 12.754687
10 Tuscan @ 13.476123
11 Tuscan @ 14.148267
12 TSI @ 14.345373
13 Greek @ 14.884710
14 Tuscan @ 16.820869
15 Cypriots @ 22.112291
16 N_Italian @ 22.580015
17 Turkish @ 23.788177
18 Uzbekistan_Jews @ 24.274902
19 Lebanese @ 24.483356
20 Palestinian @ 24.530979

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazy_Jews +50% S_Italian_Sicilian @ 3.373447


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi +25% C_Italian +25% Morocco_Jews @ 1.421015


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + C_Italian + Morocco_Jews @ 1.421015
2 Cypriots + Georgia_Jews + Portuguese + Tuscan @ 1.479777
3 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazy_Jews + C_Italian + Morocco_Jews @ 1.510895
4 Ashkenazy_Jews + Morocco_Jews + Sephardic_Jews + TSI @ 1.514432
5 Cypriots + Georgia_Jews + Portuguese + Tuscan @ 1.540217
6 Ashkenazi + Morocco_Jews + Sephardic_Jews + TSI @ 1.581284
7 Cypriots + Georgia_Jews + Portuguese + TSI @ 1.685487
8 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazy_Jews + Georgia_Jews + Sardinian @ 1.732975
9 Ashkenazy_Jews + Druze + IBS + Morocco_Jews @ 1.734846
10 Ashkenazy_Jews + Ashkenazy_Jews + C_Italian + Morocco_Jews @ 1.741920
11 Ashkenazy_Jews + Azerbaijan_Jews + Portuguese + Sephardic_Jews @ 1.745799
12 French + Georgia_Jews + Sephardic_Jews + Sephardic_Jews @ 1.755840
13 Ashkenazi + Azerbaijan_Jews + Portuguese + Sephardic_Jews @ 1.766266
14 Ashkenazy_Jews + Ashkenazy_Jews + Georgia_Jews + Sardinian @ 1.781271
15 Ashkenazi + Morocco_Jews + Sephardic_Jews + Tuscan @ 1.785747
16 Ashkenazy_Jews + Ashkenazy_Jews + Azerbaijan_Jews + Sardinian @ 1.791951
17 Druze + French + Morocco_Jews + Sephardic_Jews @ 1.792151
18 Ashkenazi + Iraq_Jews + Portuguese + S_Italian_Sicilian @ 1.793546
19 Georgia_Jews + Morocco_Jews + Tuscan + Tuscan @ 1.799203
20 Ashkenazy_Jews + Morocco_Jews + Sephardic_Jews + Tuscan @ 1.800241

Done.

Elapsed time 0.3935 seconds.






MDLP K23b 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

MDLP K23b Oracle Rev 2014 Sep 16

Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent
1
Caucasian
37.02
2
European_Early_Farmers
24.82
3
Near_East
10.99
4
European_Hunters_Gatherers
10.92
5
North_African
7.39
6
South_Central_Asian
6.65


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_East @ 2.869975
2 Sicilian_Agrigento @ 2.904889
3 Sicilian_Trapani @ 3.421775
4 Sicilian_Siracusa @ 3.498980
5 Sicilian_West @ 3.561887
6 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 4.383867
7 Maltese @ 4.398453
8 French_Jew @ 4.715803
9 Ashkenazi @ 6.112711
10 Sicilian_Center @ 6.920084
11 Romanian_Jew @ 6.937970
12 Cretan @ 7.130612
13 Italian_Abruzzo @ 7.715980
14 Italian_Jew @ 7.837917
15 Italian_South @ 7.871308
16 Sephardic_Jew @ 7.893377
17 Turk_Jew @ 8.189480
18 Greek_Athens @ 9.190895
19 Greek_Smyrna @ 9.251575
20 Greek_Islands @ 10.201650

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Sicilian_East +50% Sicilian_West @ 1.843607


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Sicilian_East +25% Sicilian_Trapani +25% Sicilian_West @ 1.704585


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Sicilian_Agrigento + Sicilian_East + Sicilian_East + Sicilian_West @ 1.609149
2 Azov_Greek + Christian_Arabs_Israel + Sicilian_East + Spanish_Andalucia_IBS @ 1.622868
3 French_Jew + Sicilian_East + Sicilian_Trapani + Sicilian_West @ 1.651642
4 Cretan + Sicilian_Agrigento + Sicilian_Trapani + Sicilian_Trapani @ 1.660023
5 French_Jew + Greek_Northwest + Sephardic_Jew + Sicilian_Agrigento @ 1.687409
6 Sicilian_East + Sicilian_East + Sicilian_Trapani + Sicilian_West @ 1.704585
7 Italian_Tuscan + Sicilian_East + Sicilian_Trapani + Syrian_Jew @ 1.716999
8 French_Jew + Kosovar + Sephardic_Jew + Sicilian_Agrigento @ 1.720567
9 French_Jew + Sicilian_East + Sicilian_West + Sicilian_West @ 1.726144
10 French_Jew + Greek_Northwest + Sephardic_Jew + Sicilian_Trapani @ 1.726820
11 Italian_Piedmont + Sicilian_East + Sicilian_East + Syrian_Jew @ 1.731042
12 Assyrian_Arzni + Sicilian_Center + Sicilian_East + Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS @ 1.772153
13 French_Jew + French_Jew + Greek_Northwest + Sicilian_Agrigento @ 1.778741
14 Italian_Bergamo + Sicilian_East + Sicilian_East + Syrian_Jew @ 1.787104
15 Cretan + Cypriot + Portugese + Sicilian_East @ 1.791961
16 Christian_Arabs_Israel + Greek_Smyrna + Portugese + Sicilian_West @ 1.797101
17 Azov_Greek + Christian_Arabs_Israel + Sicilian_Agrigento + Spanish_Andalucia_IBS @ 1.800102
18 Cretan + Sicilian_East + Sicilian_Trapani + Sicilian_Trapani @ 1.803340
19 Azov_Greek + Christian_Arabs_Israel + Sicilian_East + Spanish_Murcia_IBS @ 1.811580
20 French_Jew + Greek_Northwest + Sephardic_Jew + Sicilian_East @ 1.823290

Done.

Elapsed time 41.4792 seconds.

pmv74
10-21-2016, 10:00 PM
What is a good company to do a y-test with?

Principe
10-21-2016, 10:32 PM
What is a good company to do a y-test with?

pmv74, the best company to test Y-dna, would be ftdna, you can transfer your ancestry results to ftdna.

In terms of your gedmatch results, it seems to show more Greek influence, if you want to compare to lets say mine, I have Jewish paternal ancestors and Triangulate.

Look at my K23b MDLP results

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 34.34
2 European_Early_Farmers 27.3
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 12.92
4 Near_East 10.7
5 North_African 6.89
6 South_Central_Asian 5.63
7 Archaic_African 1.14
8 African_Pygmy 0.94
9 South_Indian 0.1
10 Ancestral_Altaic 0.04

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian_Trapani ( ) 2.62
2 Sicilian_Agrigento ( ) 3.95
3 Sicilian_West ( ) 4.06
4 Maltese ( ) 4.46
5 Italian_Abruzzo ( ) 5.52
6 Sicilian_Siracusa ( ) 6.46
7 French_Jew ( ) 7.3
8 Ashkenazi_Jew ( ) 7.49
9 Greek_Northwest ( ) 7.73
10 Italian_Tuscan ( ) 8
11 Sephardic_Jew ( ) 8.3
12 Sicilian_East ( ) 8.5
13 Kosovar ( ) 8.55
14 Moroccan_Jew ( ) 9.05
15 Italian_Jew ( ) 9.19
16 Turk_Jew ( ) 9.28
17 Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) 9.87
18 Greek_Thessaly ( ) 10.21
19 Ashkenazi ( ) 10.32
20 Italian_Piedmont ( ) 10.39

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Italian_Piedmont +50% Sephardic_Jew @ 2.913171

My V3 Dodecad

# Population Percent
1 Mediterranean 37.71
2 West_Asian 21.34
3 West_European 20.93
4 Southwest_Asian 11.22
5 East_European 3.79
6 Northwest_African 3.51
7 Neo_African 0.59
8 Palaeo_African 0.47
9 East_African 0.44

# Population (source) Distance
1 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 4.93
2 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 5.26
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 7.87
4 O_Italian (Dodecad) 8.3
5 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 9.01
6 Tuscan (Xing) 9.18
7 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 9.21
8 Tuscan (Henn) 9.72
9 TSI (HapMap) 10.07
10 Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.27
11 S_Italian (Dodecad) 12.58
12 Tuscan (HGDP) 12.78
13 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 13.1
14 Greek (Dodecad) 13.47
15 N_Italian (Dodecad) 17.12
16 North_Italian (HGDP) 19.71
17 Romanians_14 (Behar) 20.6
18 Cypriots (Behar) 22.4
19 Turkish (Dodecad) 23.65
20 Sardinian (HGDP) 24.11

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Morocco_Jews +50% Tuscan @ 2.342627

My V2 K15

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 29.34
2 West_Med 20.28
3 North_Sea 15.02
4 Atlantic 13.32
5 West_Asian 9.04
6 Baltic 5.88
7 Red_Sea 5.42
8 Northeast_African 1.12
9 Sub-Saharan 0.58

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_Sicilian 7.65
2 West_Sicilian 7.73
3 South_Italian 8.06
4 Central_Greek 8.59
5 Italian_Abruzzo 9.02
6 Italian_Jewish 9.09
7 Ashkenazi 9.7
8 Tuscan 9.75
9 Greek_Thessaly 10.01
10 Algerian_Jewish 10.73
11 Sephardic_Jewish 11.83
12 Greek 11.94
13 Libyan_Jewish 14.47
14 Tunisian_Jewish 15.08
15 North_Italian 15.23
16 Bulgarian 18.13
17 Cyprian 18.6
18 Romanian 19.65
19 Portuguese 21.59
20 Spanish_Extremadura 21.65

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Libyan_Jewish +50% North_Italian @ 5.464568

I only put the using 2 populations just to show you the differences in our results. As for the guess that Gedmatch calculators would use, and if you look at my 20 reference populations and compare them we have similar results and similar distance, the key difference is when the 2 populations are put you got all 3 having Southern Italian and mine shows Northern Italian mixed with either Sephardic Jewish or North African Jewish, and in reality we have similar recent ancestry meaning we come from same region(s). Dodecad V3 is not a good tool, World 9 is better, take a look at those results.

Agamemnon
10-21-2016, 11:11 PM
What do you get on K13 (Eurogenes) and PuntDNA K15?

pmv74
10-21-2016, 11:41 PM
Wow, we are very similar. There are a few minor differences but for the most part it's close. I see what you say about the 2 populations. The V2 K15 seemed to match pretty closely with what I know of my Ancestry, especially when you look at my 2,3 and 4 populations. My guess is it's the most accurate calculator on gedmatch for me. I will have to upload to ftdna to see what it will results it gives me. The world 9 results gave me



World9 4-Ancestors

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Southern 38.98
2 Atlantic_Baltic 36.11
3 Caucasus_Gedrosia 24.91


Finished reading population data. 250 populations found.
9 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 S_Italian_Sicilian @ 1.765473
2 Sicilian @ 2.049672
3 S_Italian @ 2.163314
4 Ashkenazi @ 2.584352
5 Ashkenazy_Jews @ 2.866488
6 Greek @ 6.206529
7 Sephardic_Jews @ 9.312251
8 C_Italian @ 9.676207
9 Morocco_Jews @ 11.201152
10 O_Italian @ 12.840309
11 Tuscan @ 15.824920
12 TSI30 @ 16.837011
13 Cypriots @ 19.452148
14 Turkish @ 22.352497
15 Bulgarian @ 23.666183
16 Romanians @ 23.949457
17 Bulgarians @ 24.797424
18 North_Italian @ 25.519106
19 N_Italian @ 25.928061
20 Turks @ 27.241543

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Sardinian +50% Armenians @ 1.069485


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% C_Italian +25% TSI30 +25% Samaritians @ 0.726297


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Armenian + North_Italian + Sardinian + Cypriots @ 0.367788
2 North_Italian + Sardinian + Cypriots + Armenians @ 0.553202
3 Armenian + N_Italian + Sardinian + Cypriots @ 0.658142
4 C_Italian + C_Italian + TSI30 + Samaritians @ 0.726297
5 Greek + Tuscan + TSI30 + Samaritians @ 0.738228
6 Greek + TSI30 + TSI30 + Samaritians @ 0.752251
7 Greek + Greek + Sardinian + Georgia_Jews @ 0.754401
8 Armenian + C_Italian + S_Italian + Sardinian @ 0.768080
9 North_Italian + Samaritians + Samaritians + Kent @ 0.779580
10 North_Italian + Samaritians + Samaritians + Cornwall @ 0.806514
11 C_Italian + S_Italian + Sardinian + Armenians @ 0.814321
12 Assyrian + Dutch + Sardinian + Samaritians @ 0.832188
13 Sardinian + Georgians + Samaritians + Cantabria @ 0.832444
14 Sardinian + Georgians + Samaritians + Aragon @ 0.833668
15 Assyrian + Mixed_Germanic + Sardinian + Samaritians @ 0.840144
16 French_Basque + North_Italian + Iraq_Jews + Samaritians @ 0.842442
17 Greek + C_Italian + North_Italian + Samaritians @ 0.850984
18 C_Italian + O_Italian + Tuscan + Samaritians @ 0.851388
19 German + Assyrian + Sardinian + Samaritians @ 0.859332
20 C_Italian + S_Italian_Sicilian + Sardinian + Armenians @ 0.867505

Done.

Elapsed time 0.5261 seconds.

pmv74
10-21-2016, 11:51 PM
My eurogenes k13 and puntdnal 15 are as follows -



Eurogenes K13


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 30.33
2 West_Med 24.05
3 West_Asian 15.24
4 North_Atlantic 15.22
5 Baltic 7.52
6 Red_Sea 6.21


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 South_Italian @ 3.258953
2 East_Sicilian @ 3.915127
3 Central_Greek @ 4.523410
4 West_Sicilian @ 7.900833
5 Italian_Abruzzo @ 8.629858
6 Ashkenazi @ 9.196584
7 Algerian_Jewish @ 10.154783
8 Sephardic_Jewish @ 10.398578
9 Italian_Jewish @ 10.882643
10 Greek_Thessaly @ 12.162433
11 Tunisian_Jewish @ 14.561401
12 Libyan_Jewish @ 14.995522
13 Tuscan @ 15.091549
14 Cyprian @ 16.646671
15 Lebanese_Muslim @ 20.837095
16 Syrian @ 21.771172
17 Bulgarian @ 22.093449
18 North_Italian @ 22.160330
19 Turkish @ 22.398582
20 Tunisian @ 23.679268

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% East_Sicilian +50% South_Italian @ 2.845715


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Lebanese_Muslim +25% Romanian +25% Sardinian @ 2.313197


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Bulgarian + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 1.958722
2 Georgian_Jewish + Romanian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.026051
3 Cyprian + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Serbian @ 2.034057
4 Austrian + Kurdish_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian + Sardinian @ 2.084774
5 Assyrian + Romanian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.208502
6 Bulgarian + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.231491
7 Assyrian + Austrian + Lebanese_Christian + Sardinian @ 2.247490
8 Assyrian + Bulgarian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.255679
9 Bulgarian + Georgian_Jewish + Libyan_Jewish + Sardinian @ 2.270116
10 Lebanese_Muslim + Lebanese_Muslim + Romanian + Sardinian @ 2.313197
11 Georgian_Jewish + Libyan_Jewish + Romanian + Sardinian @ 2.320909
12 Cyprian + Iranian_Jewish + Sardinian + Serbian @ 2.338361
13 Assyrian + Bulgarian + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.372370
14 Bulgarian + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.374482
15 Kurdish_Jewish + Romanian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.457549
16 Kurdish_Jewish + Romanian + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.473022
17 Assyrian + Libyan_Jewish + Romanian + Sardinian @ 2.504711
18 Lebanese_Muslim + Lebanese_Muslim + Sardinian + Serbian @ 2.506422
19 Bulgarian + Iranian_Jewish + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.507645
20 Austrian + Kurdish_Jewish + Samaritan + Sardinian.




puntDNAL K15 4-Ancestors Oracle



puntDNAL K15 Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Mediterranean 41.05
2 Caucasian 23.58
3 NE_European 18.79
4 SW_Asian 11.80
5 Horn_Of_Africa 3.33


Finished reading population data. 157 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian @ 2.769871
2 Sephardic_Jew @ 3.276886
3 Ashkenazy_Jew @ 3.364384
4 Tuscan @ 12.622893
5 Greek_Central @ 13.227680
6 Albanian @ 13.954014
7 Greek_Thessaly @ 14.980846
8 Cypriot @ 16.691837
9 Italian @ 20.879751
10 Samaritian @ 20.999075
11 Palestinian @ 21.304512
12 Lebanese @ 21.686369
13 Montenegrin @ 22.330540
14 Turk_Kayseri @ 22.444988
15 Brazilian @ 23.677589
16 Bulgarian @ 24.249628
17 Jordanian @ 24.561163
18 Druze @ 24.612410
19 Iraqi_Jew @ 24.646517
20 Syrian @ 25.052189

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazy_Jew +50% Sephardic_Jew @ 2.243025


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Tuscan +25% Sephardic_Jew +25% Samaritian @ 2.144134


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Basque + Tuscan + Samaritian + Druze @ 1.034794
2 Basque + Sicilian + Cypriot + Lebanese @ 1.064534
3 Basque + Ashkenazy_Jew + Cypriot + Lebanese @ 1.136855
4 Serbian + Sardinian + Assyrian + Samaritian @ 1.157071
5 Portuguese + Tuscan + Cypriot + Samaritian @ 1.207237
6 Basque + Albanian + Samaritian + Druze @ 1.211378
7 Basque + Sicilian + Cypriot + Syrian @ 1.247659
8 Portuguese + Albanian + Cypriot + Samaritian @ 1.277148
9 Basque + Sicilian + Cypriot + Iraqi_Jew @ 1.286044
10 Spaniard + Tuscan + Cypriot + Samaritian @ 1.300588
11 Basque + Ashkenazy_Jew + Cypriot + Palestinian @ 1.329176
12 Basque + Sicilian + Cypriot + Jordanian @ 1.365059
13 Bosnian + Sardinian + Cypriot + Lebanese @ 1.393353
14 Croatian + Sardinian + Assyrian + Samaritian @ 1.424276
15 Spaniard + Ashkenazy_Jew + Cypriot + Cypriot @ 1.428099
16 Basque + Greek_Central + Samaritian + Samaritian @ 1.456023
17 Basque + Sicilian + Cypriot + Palestinian @ 1.477070
18 Spaniard + Sephardic_Jew + Sephardic_Jew + Druze @ 1.477400
19 Basque + Sephardic_Jew + Cypriot + Lebanese @ 1.480343
20 French + Sardinian + Turk_Trabzon + Jordanian @ 1.531785

Agamemnon
10-21-2016, 11:56 PM
Pretty much what I expected, K13 is very accurate as far as you're concerned, the 2-way fit speaks for itself:

1 50% East_Sicilian +50% South_Italian @ 2.845715

I'd say MDLP K23b, V2 K15 and K13 make the most sense for you, in that order.

Principe
10-22-2016, 12:03 AM
Wow, we are very similar. There are a few minor differences but for the most part it's close. I see what you say about the 2 populations. The V2 K15 seemed to match pretty closely with what I know of my Ancestry, especially when you look at my 2,3 and 4 populations. My guess is it's the most accurate calculator on gedmatch for me. I will have to upload to ftdna to see what it will results it gives me. The world 9 results gave me



World9 4-Ancestors

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Southern 38.98
2 Atlantic_Baltic 36.11
3 Caucasus_Gedrosia 24.91


Finished reading population data. 250 populations found.
9 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 S_Italian_Sicilian @ 1.765473
2 Sicilian @ 2.049672
3 S_Italian @ 2.163314
4 Ashkenazi @ 2.584352
5 Ashkenazy_Jews @ 2.866488
6 Greek @ 6.206529
7 Sephardic_Jews @ 9.312251
8 C_Italian @ 9.676207
9 Morocco_Jews @ 11.201152
10 O_Italian @ 12.840309
11 Tuscan @ 15.824920
12 TSI30 @ 16.837011
13 Cypriots @ 19.452148
14 Turkish @ 22.352497
15 Bulgarian @ 23.666183
16 Romanians @ 23.949457
17 Bulgarians @ 24.797424
18 North_Italian @ 25.519106
19 N_Italian @ 25.928061
20 Turks @ 27.241543

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Sardinian +50% Armenians @ 1.069485


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% C_Italian +25% TSI30 +25% Samaritians @ 0.726297


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Armenian + North_Italian + Sardinian + Cypriots @ 0.367788
2 North_Italian + Sardinian + Cypriots + Armenians @ 0.553202
3 Armenian + N_Italian + Sardinian + Cypriots @ 0.658142
4 C_Italian + C_Italian + TSI30 + Samaritians @ 0.726297
5 Greek + Tuscan + TSI30 + Samaritians @ 0.738228
6 Greek + TSI30 + TSI30 + Samaritians @ 0.752251
7 Greek + Greek + Sardinian + Georgia_Jews @ 0.754401
8 Armenian + C_Italian + S_Italian + Sardinian @ 0.768080
9 North_Italian + Samaritians + Samaritians + Kent @ 0.779580
10 North_Italian + Samaritians + Samaritians + Cornwall @ 0.806514
11 C_Italian + S_Italian + Sardinian + Armenians @ 0.814321
12 Assyrian + Dutch + Sardinian + Samaritians @ 0.832188
13 Sardinian + Georgians + Samaritians + Cantabria @ 0.832444
14 Sardinian + Georgians + Samaritians + Aragon @ 0.833668
15 Assyrian + Mixed_Germanic + Sardinian + Samaritians @ 0.840144
16 French_Basque + North_Italian + Iraq_Jews + Samaritians @ 0.842442
17 Greek + C_Italian + North_Italian + Samaritians @ 0.850984
18 C_Italian + O_Italian + Tuscan + Samaritians @ 0.851388
19 German + Assyrian + Sardinian + Samaritians @ 0.859332
20 C_Italian + S_Italian_Sicilian + Sardinian + Armenians @ 0.867505

Done.

Elapsed time 0.5261 seconds.

World9 seems to be off for you, and yeah you saw what I meant, we have pretty similar results this to be expected due to recent ancestry, another slight difference is you have more Greek in your reference 20 populations while I have more Jewish, your V13 results seem like a pretty good indicator.

Aquilifer
10-22-2016, 12:48 PM
Very typical for southern Italians and Greeks to score West Asian/Mid-Eastern in most tests.

Could be something ancient, but perhaps even something more recent and historical.

Ancient Romans wrote often about how Levantines/West Asians were the main group of immigrants to the Italian peninsula. Since southern Italy is geographically closer, most of them would have settled there, but even Northern Italy seems to have been affected:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1Y6nfb7Ka8E/Uaz_N0WrLSI/AAAAAAAAI24/XYZxZo9yHUk/s1600/iberia.jpg


MatAust21, yes it is very true, Southern Italians even manage to cluster closer to islander Greeks than Mainland Greeks, both will get some West Asian/Middle Eastern blood, Southern Italians have more Levantine dna than Greeks though.

Two good examples of Levantine immigrants to Italy would be:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollodorus_of_Damascus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_the_Arab

The Eastern Mediterranean spoke Greek as a lingua franca during this period of time, and so did Southern Italy, so why couldn't Greek speaking Eastern Mediterranean peoples immigrate to the Greek speaking Southern Italy.

Given the current literature it's in all likelihood prehistoric.

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

There is relatively little common ancestry shared between the Italian peninsula and other locations, and what there is seems to derive mostly from longer ago than 2,500 ya. An exception is that Italy and the neighboring Balkan populations share small but significant numbers of common ancestors in the last 1,500 years, as seen in Figures S16 and S17S17. The rate of genetic common ancestry between pairs of Italian individuals seems to have been fairly constant for the past 2,500 years, which combined with significant structure within Italy suggests a constant exchange of migrants between coherent subpopulations.

And regarding foreigners in Rome: http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/09/few-foreigners-in-ancient-rome.html

Principe
10-22-2016, 04:29 PM
Given the current literature it's in all likelihood prehistoric.

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555


And regarding foreigners in Rome: http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/09/few-foreigners-in-ancient-rome.html

Erlembaldo, even with the current literature saying its prehistoric, I highly doubt it, I think the more tests are done in Italy they will find more proof of a diverse past, think about why do Italians get the highest middle eastern of all the Southern European countries? Why wouldn't the Balkans have more due to proximity? If it truly is prehistoric shouldn't it be found at similar levels in all of Central Europe assuming it would have had to pass there to get into Italy. We are located in the Mediterranean and had the Roman Empire which was a super power. Even go on any forum and dna site its mostly fellow Italians asking about Middle Eastern ancestry, not any other Europeans, there is definitely something there, even that paper that you posted in the other forum that said M67 has been in Southern Italy since 3200 years, you know that M67 is over 12 000 years old and there is many different subclades of it, example my Z482 shares a common ancestor with the Italians with Cts2906 at over 11 500 years.

Regarding the foreigners in Rome, I think it is good thanks for the article, even at that how can they possibly know for sure? It kind of builds on what I was saying about the Greek speaking Eastern Mediterranean would have migrated into Italy, to assume that no locals came from those areas is a weak argument as that area was hellenized in the sense that Greek was the spoken language it doesn't that ethnically the people were Greek, think about it like this how about if some of those Eastern Mediterranean lineages were successful when entering Italy, the ones who pasted slave hood and became citizens. Regarding the Jewish populations, 5000 Jews were brought to Puglia alone, after the fall of the Second Temple.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Italy.html

Aquilifer
10-22-2016, 06:05 PM
Erlembaldo, even with the current literature saying its prehistoric, I highly doubt it, I think the more tests are done in Italy they will find more proof of a diverse past, think about why do Italians get the highest middle eastern of all the Southern European countries? Why wouldn't the Balkans have more due to proximity? If it truly is prehistoric shouldn't it be found at similar levels in all of Central Europe assuming it would have had to pass there to get into Italy. We are located in the Mediterranean and had the Roman Empire which was a super power. Even go on any forum and dna site its mostly fellow Italians asking about Middle Eastern ancestry, not any other Europeans, there is definitely something there, even that paper that you posted in the other forum that said M67 has been in Southern Italy since 3200 years, you know that M67 is over 12 000 years old and there is many different subclades of it, example my Z482 shares a common ancestor with the Italians with Cts2906 at over 11 500 years.

Regarding the foreigners in Rome, I think it is good thanks for the article, even at that how can they possibly know for sure? It kind of builds on what I was saying about the Greek speaking Eastern Mediterranean would have migrated into Italy, to assume that no locals came from those areas is a weak argument as that area was hellenized in the sense that Greek was the spoken language it doesn't that ethnically the people were Greek, think about it like this how about if some of those Eastern Mediterranean lineages were successful when entering Italy, the ones who pasted slave hood and became citizens. Regarding the Jewish populations, 5000 Jews were brought to Puglia alone, after the fall of the Second Temple.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Italy.html

Southern Italians get higher "MENA" numbers because it was a landing point for said ancient migrations, whether it was in the Neolithic or the Bronze Age; also bear in mind these early migrations happened in waves through thousands of years and not simply in one swoop. Also, it took longer for Neolithic migrants to reach central and northern Europe due to physical barriers like the Alps, Danube, etc, and inversely norther migrations took longer and had less of an impact further south for the same reasons. Personally I think the Bronze Age Collapse had a not insignificant impact on southern Italy via westward migrations from the Aegean but it's only speculation on my part. I've written about the Jews in southern Italy previously, but in essence most were forcibly removed during the early 1500s, including converts to Christianity; I can PM you more details if you want to know more.

I won't discount individual cases that could be answered by Roman-era and later migrations, but as always without ancient DNA samples we'll never know for sure what impact historic migrations had, if any. I tend to trust what academic papers say so that's what I'm going on. Admix calcs can only tell you so much without TMRCA or IBDs.

Principe
10-22-2016, 06:33 PM
Southern Italians get higher "MENA" numbers because it was a landing point for said ancient migrations, whether it was in the Neolithic or the Bronze Age; also bear in mind these early migrations happened in waves through thousands of years and not simply in one swoop. Also, it took longer for Neolithic migrants to reach central and northern Europe due to physical barriers like the Alps, Danube, etc, and inversely norther migrations took longer and had less of an impact further south for the same reasons. Personally I think the Bronze Age Collapse had a not insignificant impact on southern Italy via westward migrations from the Aegean but it's only speculation on my part. I've written about the Jews in southern Italy previously, but in essence most were forcibly removed during the early 1500s, including converts to Christianity; I can PM you more details if you want to know more.










I won't discount individual cases that could be answered by Roman-era and later migrations, but as always without ancient DNA samples we'll never know for sure what impact historic migrations had, if any. I tend to trust what academic papers say so that's what I'm going on. Admix calcs can only tell you so much without TMRCA or IBDs.

If you want to PM me go ahead I don't mind taking this conversation further, in regards to the Inquisition, yes many left including those who converted but many stayed as well, I have an article if you want me to share it with you, in Sicily alone 9000 converts stayed, I have been looking at this awhile since doing my dna test. There are some Italians that still practiced Judaism in secret up until recent. I think there is more Jewish blood in Southern Italy than most people think but much less than what Barbara Aiello suggests.

I agree with you ancient dna will be crucial to our findings and theories, I think neolithic Italy was mostly R1b, I1 and G personally and there seems to be neolithic J1 in Central Italy, well see its still early in the dna findings. I think Bronze Age to Classical period was the biggest influx of the various haplogroups and subclades found in Italy. Also to add to that point do you think neolithic peoples had advanced naval technologies to make it to Italy? Bronze Age for sure, I am very skeptical for neolithic, also they haven't found J2, T or J1 in ancient european samples (so maybe that J1 in Central Italy doesn't work) that has to be taken into consideration. The work of the academic papers are good, they just use ancient subclades which is a problem in itself, they should full genomes those ancient samples. Also wouldn't the Alps have made it more difficult to for these genes to make it into Italy?

Aquilifer
10-22-2016, 06:48 PM
If you want to PM me go ahead I don't mind taking this conversation further, in regards to the Inquisition, yes many left including those who converted but many stayed as well, I have an article if you want me to share it with you, in Sicily alone 9000 converts stayed, I have been looking at this awhile since doing my dna test. There are some Italians that still practiced Judaism in secret up until recent. I think there is more Jewish blood in Southern Italy than most people think but much less than what Barbara Aiello suggests.

I agree with you ancient dna will be crucial to our findings and theories, I think neolithic Italy was mostly R1b, I1 and G personally and there seems to be neolithic J1 in Central Italy, well see its still early in the dna findings. I think Bronze Age to Classical period was the biggest influx of the various haplogroups and subclades found in Italy. Also to add to that point do you think neolithic peoples had advanced naval technologies to make it to Italy? Bronze Age for sure, I am very skeptical for neolithic, also they haven't found J2, T or J1 in ancient european samples (so maybe that J1 in Central Italy doesn't work) that has to be taken into consideration. The work of the academic papers are good, they just use ancient subclades which is a problem in itself, they should full genomes those ancient samples. Also wouldn't the Alps have made it more difficult to for these genes to make it into Italy?

Neolithic migrations came from Anatolia/West Asia first through Greece and then into southern Italy by sea as far as I know.

Principe
10-22-2016, 07:02 PM
Neolithic migrations came from Anatolia/West Asia first through Greece and then into southern Italy by sea as far as I know.

The problem with that is they haven't E, J2, J1 or T in neolithic Greece, they need to find ancient samples in Greece to suggest this, it appears those 4 came in Bronze Age at the moment, with the exception of Crete which had neolithic J2, they were a doric colony, so some J2 could have came in with Doric colonists, most likely J-M319 as its found at 7-9% in Crete.

vettor
10-22-2016, 07:18 PM
Southern Italians get higher "MENA" numbers because it was a landing point for said ancient migrations, whether it was in the Neolithic or the Bronze Age; also bear in mind these early migrations happened in waves through thousands of years and not simply in one swoop. Also, it took longer for Neolithic migrants to reach central and northern Europe due to physical barriers like the Alps, Danube, etc, and inversely norther migrations took longer and had less of an impact further south for the same reasons. Personally I think the Bronze Age Collapse had a not insignificant impact on southern Italy via westward migrations from the Aegean but it's only speculation on my part. I've written about the Jews in southern Italy previously, but in essence most were forcibly removed during the early 1500s, including converts to Christianity; I can PM you more details if you want to know more.

I won't discount individual cases that could be answered by Roman-era and later migrations, but as always without ancient DNA samples we'll never know for sure what impact historic migrations had, if any. I tend to trust what academic papers say so that's what I'm going on. Admix calcs can only tell you so much without TMRCA or IBDs.

There still exists a theory after the Bronze Age collapse , that the sea peoples came from Italian peninsula into the levant and egypt

vettor
10-22-2016, 07:22 PM
The problem with that is they haven't E, J2, J1 or T in neolithic Greece, they need to find ancient samples in Greece to suggest this, it appears those 4 came in Bronze Age at the moment, with the exception of Crete which had neolithic J2, they were a doric colony, so some J2 could have came in with Doric colonists, most likely J-M319 as its found at 7-9% in Crete.

T came to Ibiza from Miletus, Chios, Samos .....was that Greek, ..unsure

Principe
10-22-2016, 07:34 PM
T came to Ibiza from Miletus, Chios, Samos .....was that Greek, ..unsure

All three were Greek, there might have possibly been T in Megara Greece, as everywhere the Megarian settlement there is a peak of T, look at Sciacca where T peaks in Sicily, Sciacca was populated by Greeks from the eastern Sicilian coast who claim their origins from Megara, but then again whether it was the Greeks or another peoples Sciacca has a rich history, it could have came from other people, but theres a theory!

Mixed
12-04-2016, 12:32 AM
Same deal with me as I have great grandparents from Calabria.

Barellalee
12-11-2016, 03:10 AM
This is a great thread and answered alot of questions, but one for me still lingers. Im half Italian, mixed of Tuscan, Laziale, Abruzzese, and Campanian. My NtDNA comes from my Tuscan side and is so far one of the only two Samples of the 17,000 year old native European Haplogroup J2a1* yielded from Testing. The other Sample was found in Ireland. Geneticists have studied the relationship between my J2a1* Haplotype from Tuscany and the one in Ireland, and concluded that my Haplotype is the older, and that our Maternal Lines Diverged late Mesolithic-early Neolithic. So my Haplogroup was in the Mediterranean prior to the Isles, and how it made it from point A to point B and if there are any other J2a1* Families existant is yet to be seen. All we know is that the Ancestor to J2a1* was the 19,500 year old native European J2a, and that the Descendant of J2a1* was the 11,000 year old J2a1a, which is very profuse in Northern and Central Europe. My other Maternal Great-Grandmother was from Campania, and on her Side the Y-DNA of the males is R1b-Z2103*, which is common in South Italy, the Balkans, Near East, and Caucusus. The Ancestor to this Haplogroup was R1b-L23*, which has been found in no modern Samples. The Cousin to R1b-Z2103* is R1b-L51, which is extremely common in North Italy, the Alps, and France. I've been told the high frequency of Z2103* in the Italian South, with its' peak in Calabria, is most likely of Neolithic or Metal Ages presence. Does this ring historically correct? A few Fora claimed Ancient Greek colonial origin in the Italian South, yet old Haplotypes of Z2103* are more common in Calabria than they are in the Balkans. Any info appreciated.

Pegasusphm1
12-18-2016, 02:53 AM
Don't forget the Phoenicians... They brought haplogroup's along with them as well. Italy had colonies in Turkey such as Trabzon, SW Anatolia. other related topics include Levantine Latin Christians, italian Lebanese, Italian Levantines. italy has the oldest Jewish community outside of Israel, During Roman empire and many had been brought back as slaves from the revolts. History goes very deep between Italy and the eastern med. Arab Islamic expanse not so much, never really had a any major foothold on the mainland.

Wonder how much migration and reverse migration took place effecting these studies.

Missouri1455
02-04-2017, 03:43 PM
I received my Ancestry DNA results as I was curious what it would come back as. My known background is both parents are Italian decent. My moms parents were from Naples and Potenza areas and my dads parents are from the Calabria and Central Sicily areas. I figured the test would most likely come back as Italian and it did. The results were as follows

Italy/Greece- 73%
Middle East- 13%
Causcaus- 10%
Spanish- 1%
North African- <1%
European Jewish- <1%
Great Britain- <1%

The Italian was no surprise. I'm surprised I don't have much in the line of Northern, & Western Europe. Where did all that middle eastern come from? And when did it get introduced to my line? The Causcaus and Middle East regions overlap quite a bit on ancestry's. I'm assuming I am mostly Arab, Turkish, and Persian from those regions. I ran my kit through Gedmatch and it's shows even more middle eastern Ancestry than the Ancestry DNA showed, upwards close to 45-50 percent in some calculators. Some of the gedmatch calculators said I had Jewish ancestry as well. The best guess from looking at it I'm 3/4 Italian/Sicilian and 1/4 non-specific middle eastern. I wish they could break down the Ancestry more regionally.

Whats your middle eastern % in Deocad V3 and Eurogene K13