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View Full Version : Z255 & L159.2 (L21>DF13>Z255>L159.2) & Irish Sea/Leinster/Laighin



TigerMW
05-13-2013, 02:41 AM
L159.2 is very strongly correlated to the Irish Sea Modal Haplotype, but Z255 is one step older than L159.2. I have a maternal g-grandfather Rhea who is L159.2 and their story is they are from Argyle, Scotland.

However, I know there are several fairly large family groups, including the Kavanaughs and Beatty/Byrne's, who can trace back to Leinster. Many of these people have the unusual advanced STR marker results of DYS464X=2c2g where as the normal/modal values for L21 are 3 c's and 1 g or 3c1g.

Kavanaugh is an Irish Gaelic surname that was first assumed by Domhnall, eldest son of the 12th century King of Leinster, Diarmait Mac Murchada (Dermot MacMurrough) in Ireland.


In August 2009, results for one of the R1b-L21 Walk-on-the-Y (WTY) participants revealed a new SNP present in some L21+ men: L159.2. This SNP is a parallel mutation that exists also within Haplogroup I2a. Moreover, in 2011, a new SNP - Z255 - was discovered and was ascertained to be upstream of L159.2. The Z255 and Subclades Project thus serves as a repository of data for both of the main lineages that inherit the distinctive Irish Sea Haplotype, which is mainly found around the Irish Sea coasts of Great Britain and the province of Leinster. In addition, Z255 has been detected in a number of samples from Norway.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-L159.2/
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/DYS464x%20ccgg

Dubhthach
05-13-2013, 10:17 AM
On a linguistic note "Laighin" sort of rhymes with english word Lion -- word internal -gh- has become silent. In "Old Irish" lentition wasn't marked so was written as Laigin, moder spelling is Laighin.

To put into context here is a general map of Ireland circa 900AD:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Kingdom_of_Leinster-900.svg/1000px-Kingdom_of_Leinster-900.svg.png

The modern province of Leinster is considerably larger then the historic kingdom, this is worth bearing in mind.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Leinster_locator_map.svg/1000px-Leinster_locator_map.svg.png

Kavanagh actually started out as a Cognomen, sort of same way that Caesar is a Cognomen for section of Juli family. In this case it marked the mainline of the family, and signified that Domhnall (Donál = reformed spelling) was a devotee of local St. Caomhan.

Wiki says the following:

Domhnall was fostered for his training and education at the monastery of St. Caomhan at Kilcavan in the Barony of Gorey, County Wexford.[4] In an effort to distinguish himself from his other brothers, Domhnall assumed the name Caomhánach (an adjective of the name Caomhan, meaning "of Caomhan").[5] Contrary to usual Irish practice, the name was adopted by his descendants as an inherited surname.[6]

They retained the Kingship up to at least 1632, the last to be titled "King of Leinster" been:
Domhnall Spainneach Mac Murchadha Caomhánach (died 1632)

Spainneach is a nickname here, been the word for "spanish" eg. (Spanish Donál). This is due to fact that he went to Spain in 1568 and spent a number of years there before returning to Ireland in the 1570's.

Mac Murchadha is obviously the surname, and specifically the Caomhánach branch which is the main line with direct ancestroy to Domhnall Caomhanach (son of Diarmuid)

-Paul
(DF41+)

TigerMW
06-14-2013, 04:55 PM
Any recent news on L159.2? Are there any potential equivalents for it found in Geno 2.0 testing?

TigerMW
06-14-2013, 04:57 PM
On a linguistic note "Laighin" sort of rhymes with english word Lion -- word internal -gh- has become silent. In "Old Irish" lentition wasn't marked so was written as Laigin, moder spelling is Laighin.
...
Kavanagh actually started out as a Cognomen, sort of same way that Caesar is a Cognomen for section of Juli family. In this case it marked the mainline of the family, and signified that Domhnall (Donál = reformed spelling) was a devotee of local St. Caomhan.

Wiki says the following:


They retained the Kingship up to at least 1632, the last to be titled "King of Leinster" been:
Domhnall Spainneach Mac Murchadha Caomhánach (died 1632)

Spainneach is a nickname here, been the word for "spanish" eg. (Spanish Donál). This is due to fact that he went to Spain in 1568 and spent a number of years there before returning to Ireland in the 1570's.

Mac Murchadha is obviously the surname, and specifically the Caomhánach branch which is the main line with direct ancestroy to Domhnall Caomhanach (son of Diarmuid)


Paul, two other very common surnames in this subclade are Beatty and Byrnes. How do they relate to the Kavanaugh's?

Dubhthach
06-14-2013, 08:30 PM
Paul, two other very common surnames in this subclade are Beatty and Byrnes. How do they relate to the Kavanaugh's?

Hi Mike,

Well I'm not sure of the Beatty origin in this cluster, I would need to read up on it. But basically Beatty isn't a native Irish surname as you guess, I could be wrong but I don't know if the Beatty's (Peter Beatty??) have any ancestry in Ireland on their direct line. This is one of reasons we often see the term "Irish Sea cluster" used for this.

Byrne on the other hand is one of major surnames of Leinster. Though their shared "ancestry" with the Kavanaghs is on order of 1200-1500 years ago.

So in the Kingdom of Leinster (Laighin) there were two major dynastical groupings these been:

Uí Dhúnlainghe (Uí Dúnlainge -- old Irish spelling)
Uí Cheinnselaigh(Uí Ceinnselaig --old Irish spelling)


The Uí Dhúnlainghe were the descendants of Dúnlaing mac Énda Niada (Dúnlaing son of "Énda Niada"). The dominated the Kingship of Leinster from the mid 8th century to the mid 11th century and were divided into three kindreds who would rotate the kingship between them (similiar to what Uí Néill did). These been the:

Uí Mhuiredaigh (Uí Muiredaig) -- the principle family in later times were the Ó Tuathail eg. O'Toole
Uí Fhaolain (Uí Faelain) -- the principle family in later times been the Ó Broin eg. O'Byrnes/Byrnes
Uí Dhúnchada (Uí Dúnchada) -- the principle family in later times been the FitzDermots (extinct?) who were "normanised" in name/title



Here's what Woulfe's has for O'Toole's and O'Brynes


Ó BROIN—I—O Birne, O'Byrne, Byrne, Byrnes, (Burns, Byron), &c.; 'descendant of Bran' (raven). This family derives its name and descent from Bran, son of Maolmórdha, King of Leinster, whose death at Cologne is recorded by the Four Masters under the year 1052. The original patrimony of the family was Ui Faolain, which comprised the northern half of the present Co. Kildare; but they were driven thence by the Anglo-Normans soon after the invasion, and forced to take refuge in the mountain fastnesses of Wicklow, where they became very powerful and were long the terror of the invaders of their ancestral homes. At the head of the Wicklow clans, they maintained for a period of three hundred years incessant warfare with the foreigners, whom they defeated in many a fierce engagement. Their country, which was called Crioch-Bhranach, comprised the entire of the barony of Newcastle and portions of those of Arklow and Ballinacor. This last belonged to the Gaval-Rannall, or Ranelagh, a junior branch of the family, which in time became very powerful and of which the celebrated Fiach MacHugh O'Byrne was chief in the reign of Elizabeth. The name is now very common in Leinster, and has spread into many other parts of Ireland.

---
Ó TUATHAIL—I—O Toughill, O Touhill, O Twohill, O Tuale, O Towell, O'Toole, Toughill, Tuohill, Twohill, Toohill, Tohall, Tohill, Towell, Toole, Toal, Toale, &c.; 'descendant of Tuathal' (people-mighty); also written Ó Tuathghail and Ó Tuathghaile; the name of at least two distinct families in Ireland, viz.: (1) Ó Tuathail of Leinster, and (2) Ó Tuathail of Ulster. The O'Tooles of Leinster, who are one of the most illustrious families of that province, derive their name and descent from Tuathal, son of Ughaire, King of Leinster, who died in the year 956. Their clan-name was Ui Muireadhaigh. This afterwards became the designation of their territory, which originally comprised the southern half of the present Co. Kildare. Driven thence soon after the Anglo-Norman invasion by Walter de Riddlesford, they settled in the mountain fastnesses of Wicklow, first in Ui Mail and afterwards in Feara Cualann, where in alliance with their kinsmen, the O'Byrnes, they carried on incessant warfare with the English for a period of four hundred years, and preserved their independence as a clan down to the close of the reign of Elizabeth. In the reign of James I, the whole of 'Fercuolen' was confiscated and granted to Sir Richard Wingfield. The O'Tooles, however, retained considerable property down to the Cromwellian and Williamite confiscations. A branch of the family settled at an early period in West Connacht, and are still numerous in Mayo and Galway. The Ulster family of the name is, according to MacFirbis, a branch of the Cinel Eoghain.



The Uí Cheinnselaigh in comparison were concentrated in South Leinster and were descended from Énnae Cennsalach who is suppose to be a cousin of Dúnlaing mac Énda Niada (this is back in the 5th century AD). This is the dynasty of the Mac Murchadha (McMurrogh, Murphy, Kavanagh, Kinsella etc.) who dominated the kingship of Leinster post the 11th century.

Now genealogies were often fabricated for political reasons so it's hard to know if the two major dynastical groupings did indeed share a common ancestor sometime in 4th/5th century, what's interesting obviously is we see Z255(L159.2) in both which points to at least common ancestry in the form of wider ruling elites of province of Leinster (Laighin)

-Paul
(DF41+)

Kopfjäger
06-15-2013, 12:43 AM
Hi Mike,

Well I'm not sure of the Beatty origin in this cluster, I would need to read up on it. But basically Beatty isn't a native Irish surname as you guess, I could be wrong but I don't know if the Beatty's (Peter Beatty??) have any ancestry in Ireland on their direct line. This is one of reasons we often see the term "Irish Sea cluster" used for this.

Byrne on the other hand is one of major surnames of Leinster. Though their shared "ancestry" with the Kavanaghs is on order of 1200-1500 years ago.

So in the Kingdom of Leinster (Laighin) there were two major dynastical groupings these been:

Uí Dhúnlainghe (Uí Dúnlainge -- old Irish spelling)
Uí Cheinnselaigh(Uí Ceinnselaig --old Irish spelling)


The Uí Dhúnlainghe were the descendants of Dúnlaing mac Énda Niada (Dúnlaing son of "Énda Niada"). The dominated the Kingship of Leinster from the mid 8th century to the mid 11th century and were divided into three kindreds who would rotate the kingship between them (similiar to what Uí Néill did). These been the:

Uí Mhuiredaigh (Uí Muiredaig) -- the principle family in later times were the Ó Tuathail eg. O'Toole
Uí Fhaolain (Uí Faelain) -- the principle family in later times been the Ó Broin eg. O'Byrnes/Byrnes
Uí Dhúnchada (Uí Dúnchada) -- the principle family in later times been the FitzDermots (extinct?) who were "normanised" in name/title



Here's what Woulfe's has for O'Toole's and O'Brynes




The Uí Cheinnselaigh in comparison were concentrated in South Leinster and were descended from Énnae Cennsalach who is suppose to be a cousin of Dúnlaing mac Énda Niada (this is back in the 5th century AD). This is the dynasty of the Mac Murchadha (McMurrogh, Murphy, Kavanagh, Kinsella etc.) who dominated the kingship of Leinster post the 11th century.

Now genealogies were often fabricated for political reasons so it's hard to know if the two major dynastical groupings did indeed share a common ancestor sometime in 4th/5th century, what's interesting obviously is we see Z255(L159.2) in both which points to at least common ancestry in the form of wider ruling elites of province of Leinster (Laighin)

-Paul
(DF41+)

I have no doubt the MacMurrough dynasty is most likely Z255+. Pretty much everything Paul wrote above makes sense. The Irish Sea designation came from the initial observance of L159.2 popping up throughout various islands in the Irish Sea, North West England, Leinster, and Western Scotland.

I am inclined to believe that L159.2 (Z255) is older in Scotland/Britain than in Ireland. There are a number of interesting haplotypes coming from Western Scotland and the Inner Hebrides. There is also the possibility that Z255 has a larger presence (although not as much as, say, Z253) in France, and it can be found in Rhineland. Norway also has a number of Z255+ men (the most out of Continental European results); we picked up another fellow with ancestry from Vesteralen a few weeks ago.

Kopfjäger
06-15-2013, 01:08 AM
Last time I heard, Geno 2.0 tested for Z255, but I am not sure beyond that.

Dubhthach
06-15-2013, 09:49 AM
We have to recall that there were extremely strong ties between the Irish Sea region and Scandinavia during the historic period. Dublin was perhaps one of the largest Viking trading hubs in Western Europe and at times formed a common Kingdom with the Isle of Man, as well as with heavy connections to the Isles. The Viking kings of Dublin heavily intermarried with the Irish kingly elite, particulary with Leinster. "Máel Mórda mac Murchada" (Mael Mórdha son of Murchadh) was after all both King of Leinster and Uncle of Sigtrygg II Silkbeard Olafsson King of Dublin (whose mother Gormfhlaith was Máel Mórdha sister.)

Sigtrygg is a good example of interconnect, his mother been of the Uí Dhúnlainghe (Uí Dúnlainge), he married in turn one of daughters of Brian Boru (who in turn married his now widowed mother Gormfhlaith). So with Battle of Clontarf you had Brian (L226?) on one side and his "ex-brother in law" and son-in-law on the other side.

Of course that ignores the fact that Clontarf had both Irish and Vikings on both sides, Vikings from Limerick, Cork and Waterford fought on Brian side, whereas the army of Leinster fought with the Dublin Vikings along with a large contingent from the Isles and Mann.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Kopfjäger
06-15-2013, 01:04 PM
Yeah, I would say that Leinster had its share of invaders over the years, probably much more so than any other province, right Paul? On another note, I do have some 25 and 37-marker matches with roots in France, but getting them to test is the difficult part.

Dubhthach
06-15-2013, 01:22 PM
Well in context of Viking age the settlements or Longphort (ship enclosures) of the Vikings were on the coast. Obviously they often were situated on interface areas between Irish kingdoms, good example been Dublin which would have fallen on border between the Province of Leinster (Laighin) and Meath (Mí -- Midhe). As a result given the Viking skillset and their merchant connections they generally formed symbiotic connections with local elites.

This is one of reasons why we then see the Gall-Ghaeil (Norse Gaels) develop, these were basically gaelicised Vikings, where probably the elite may have had viking ancestry but bulk were probably natives. Galloway after all is named after them (the land of the Gall-Ghaeil). As Dublin was most important port in Irish Sea and major trading area in the Viking network it wouldn't surprise me as a result that you see ingress of "men of Leinster" into the Gall-Ghaeil etc. For a time for example York was also ruled by the Dublin Vikings.

Obviously post the Cambro-Norman invasion Leinster was most heavily settled area however large parts of Leinster remained under rule of the previous dynasts. These tended to be the more marginal uplands/boglands. The normans were heavily concentrated in the valleys of the "Three Sisters" (The Barrow, The Nore and the Slaney), thence we see Mike's Walsh ancestors in Kilkenny. However the major families that held the kingship of Laighin still persisted, specifically in the "mountains" of Wicklow (O'Toole's and O'Brynes) and in North Wexford (McMurrogh Kavanagh etc.). Likewise in the west in marginal boglands of the "Bog of Allen" you see the seven septs of Laois remaining in control of land. The Fitzpatricks remained controll of Northern Osraí (Ossroy) though they lost bulk of their territory in Kilkenny to the Butlers.

After the Black death a process of "Gaelic reconquest" even roled back alot of this and it's only with the onset of the "Tudor conquest" which started with destruction of the O'Moores (the massacre at Mullaghmast -- a feast under oath of protection akin to a recent episode of "Game of Thrones") in the mid 16th century.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
06-22-2013, 12:27 PM
I was in the bookshop today and while looking at a book I took the following photos with my phone. Slightly retouched it to bring out contrasts. It shows the Kingdom of Leinster in turn of it's main dynastical groupings at around the time of the Viking Age.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/laighin01.jpg

Kopfjäger
06-23-2013, 02:34 AM
Nice map, Paul! I was doing a little reading about the Kinsellas today after seeing this.

Dubhthach
06-23-2013, 09:04 AM
Second map from the same book. (Specifically a collection of essays)

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/laighin-vikings.jpg

One thing I should point out is it only shows Viking settlements in Leinster. It doesn't show that obviously there was large settlement on Leinster boundary in Waterford, which was on of major Viking Settlements in Ireland.

Dubhthach
06-23-2013, 09:43 AM
Nice map, Paul! I was doing a little reading about the Kinsellas today after seeing this.

Neal,

Just to point out "Kinsella" the surname isn't one and the same thing as Uí Cheinnsealaigh (dynastical "Clann" name). Just the way Ó Néill (surname eg. O'Neill) is not one and the same with "Uí Néill" (dynastical grouping divided into Northern and Southern Branches".

In Old/Middle Irish "Ó" was written as "Ua", this is a singluar meaning grandson/descendant. Uí (pronunced ee) is a plural in comparison.

In the case of the "Uí Cheinnselaigh" this means the descendants of Énnae Cennsalach (Old-Irish form of name) who is supposedly a contemporary of Niall (of the Nine Hostages) in the 5th century.

One of the branches of this dynasty was the Síl Fáelchán (síl = síol eg "Seed of" -- "Seed of Fáelchán). Fáelchán to my eye anyway looks like the old Irish genitive case of Faolchú (Wolf/Wild dog) which modern genitive would be: Faolchon

Faol (older term for wolf) shows up in root word for alot of names. Faolán (Little wolf -- -án = dimunitive) been obviously the first name connected to Whelan/Phelan eg. Ó Faoláin (Faoláin = genitive of Faolán).

Anyways the "Síl Fáelchán" is the lineage that gave rise to the MacMurroghs (MacMurchadha) who were the ruling branch of the dynasty until the 17th century and obviously Kings of Leinster during later part of the 11th and 12th century (and kept claiming the kingship until at 1632).

Obviously the most (in)famous of them was Diarmaid MacMurchadha (Diarmait Mac Murchada)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Dermot_Mac_Murrough.JPG/239px-Dermot_Mac_Murrough.JPG

He who brought Strongbow and the Camboro-Normans to Ireland to reclaim his kingship, and upon whose death Henry II arrived in Ireland to prevent Strongbow (Diarmait's now son-in-law) form declaring himself a King -- soverign can't have one of his subjects becoming a King and thus equal.

Anyways the Kinsella surname (Ó Ceinnselaigh) are descendant specifically from Diarmaid through his son "Énna Cennselach mac Murchada", who was blinded in 1169 (thus removing him from succession as a king cannot have physical blemishes). Obviously from Énna older brother Domhnall (Dónal) descend the Kavanaghs.

Both Kavangh and Kinsella thus are really MacMurchadha (MacMurrough), both names started out as Cognomen's (eg. nicknames that mark a branch of the family). So the common ancestor of both the Kavanaghs and the Kinsella's is the bould Diarmaid!

-Paul
(DF41+)

Kopfjäger
06-23-2013, 01:22 PM
Thanks again, Paul. Are there mixed feelings among the Irish about Diarmaid? After all, he was the impetus around the Normans coming Ireland.

Dubhthach
06-23-2013, 01:44 PM
Thanks again, Paul. Are there mixed feelings among the Irish about Diarmaid? After all, he was the impetus around the Normans coming Ireland.

I don't know about Mixed, I would say most Irish people have one one feeling about him, and would regard him with the likes of Judas or perhaps to put an american spin on it, Benedict Arnold ;)

Of course the whole thing started out over a woman. Diarmaid had "kidnapped" the wife of Tighernán Ua Ruairc King of Bréifne. Though it's more likely that she ran off with Diarmaid as oppose to been kidnapped. That happened in 1152 and she was returned the next year if left a mark with Ua Ruairc. He got his revenge 14 years later when he drove Diarmaid out of Leinster, and the rest is history!

Kopfjäger
06-23-2013, 06:09 PM
I don't know about Mixed, I would say most Irish people have one one feeling about him, and would regard him with the likes of Judas or perhaps to put an american spin on it, Benedict Arnold ;)

Of course the whole thing started out over a woman. Diarmaid had "kidnapped" the wife of Tighernán Ua Ruairc King of Bréifne. Though it's more likely that she ran off with Diarmaid as oppose to been kidnapped. That happened in 1152 and she was returned the next year if left a mark with Ua Ruairc. He got his revenge 14 years later when he drove Diarmaid out of Leinster, and the rest is history!

Then you must forgive me for feeling sorry for Diarmaid. He is a cousin, after all lol.

Mick O'Reilly-Rice
06-23-2013, 08:04 PM
He was a cruel King and his own People played a part in his down fall as a King, We are also quick to forget his name was "Diarmait na nGall", as Diarmait Mac Murchada was his name prior to the Cambro-Norman Invasion.

Dubhthach
06-23-2013, 08:07 PM
He was a cruel King and his own People played a part in his down fall as a King, We are also quick to forget his name was "Diarmait na nGall", as Diarmait Mac Murchada was his name prior to the Cambro-Norman Invasion.

He never described himself as "Diarmait na nGall", this is a later "poetic name" given to him by the annalists etc. To his death he was Diarmait Mac Murchadha. As for been cruel, well all kings were, if you read enough of the annals you can see that most times Kings/Lords (Tiarna) were killed by their own kindred.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
08-20-2013, 06:40 PM
We have a new Geno 2.0 Z255+/L159.2- in the Ireland project. He doesn't have STR values however his father had tested earlier (L21+/L159.2-) and has 111 STR's.
N74958 (Gleeson).

His closest match at 111 markers in the project is McMahon (202249) who is also confirmed as Z255+/L159.2-

TigerMW
08-23-2013, 01:52 AM
Mike, I am looking at the Norwegian Z255 haplotypes and can tell you that I do not see an affinity with the Byrnes, Kinsellas, or others said to descend from the Laigin, other than the fact that both groups share the Z255 mutation. I personally think it makes more sense that Z255 is an extension of L21, and is found throughout Northwest Europe. Much like the French and German Z255+ folks, their inheritance of the mutation has more to do with being located at the fringes of Europe, rather than being Irish.
Thanks. What are the TMRCA estimates for Z255? Do the Norwegian guys have the 464x=2c2g mutations?

Kopfjäger
08-23-2013, 02:25 AM
Thanks. What are the TMRCA estimates for Z255? Do the Norwegian guys have the 464x=2c2g mutations?

The Norwegians fall into the CCGG category, but this doesn't do much as far as separating them since our Lorraine L159.2+ guy is also CCGG. I am not well-versed in the TMRCA estimates for Z255, but remember you or someone saying it is at least 1000 years old. It's likely older than that considering the presence near the Rhineland.

MJost
08-23-2013, 01:29 PM
Thanks, Mark. I am still of the impression that Z255/L159.2 first manifested itself somewhere between France and Germany, possibly along the Rhine.

Edit: Added original info posted in the previous thread

Here is my TMRCA's using Bird's q stable STRs 67marker panel

Z255 All
Coalescence / Founders
1,530.1 / 1,625.0

L159.2 All
Coalescence / Founders
1,481.4 / 1,560.3

L159.2 England
Coalescence
1,578.4

L159.2 Norway
Coalescence
1,170.3

L159.2 Scotland
Coalescence
1,521.42

MJost


I did neglect to report the Ireland info

L159.2 Ireland n=48
Coalescence
1,482.2


It could very well have a Rhine core origin ancestry. Of tested members there was only two continental guys, one German and one French. Of 134 HTs, 91 have reported 'Old World County' entries.

Lets look at the Varieties with their Variance and Coalescence (Closest MRCA) Ages with three or more HTs. This is your weekend project:
Follow the data.


255-1830-IS 3.48 / 1,102.13
255-1830-IS-A 4.66 / 1,477.72
255-1830-IS-A Ireland 6.88 / 2,177.86
255-1830-IS-B1 3.64 / 1,152.73
255-1830-IS-B1 England 4.16 / 1,317.80
255-1830-IS-B1 Ireland 2.16 / 684.24
255-1830-IS-B1 Scotland 2.56 / 811.75
255-1830-IS-B2 2.07 / 657.02
255-1830-IS-B3 1.78 / 563.16
255-1830-IS-C 2.52 / 797.82
255-1830-IS-C Ireland 2.56 / 811.75
255-1830-IS-D 3.80 / 1,204.55
255-1830-IS-D Norway 0.89 / 281.58
255-1830-IS-G 3.60 / 1,140.41
255-1830-IS-G Ireland 1.78 / 563.16
255-1830-IS-M 3.73 / 1,182.06
255-1830-IS-M Ireland 3.91 / 1,237.42
255-1830-IS-B's 3.90 / 1,233.88
255-1830-IS-B's England 4.16 / 1,317.80
255-1830-IS-B's Ireland 3.22 / 1,020.73
255-1830-IS-B's Scotland 2.94 / 932.74

Sorted by variance


255-1830-IS-A Ireland 6.88 / 2,177.86
255-1830-IS-A 4.66 / 1,477.72
255-1830-IS-B1 England 4.16 / 1,317.80
255-1830-IS-B's England 4.16 / 1,317.80
255-1830-IS-M Ireland 3.91 / 1,237.42
255-1830-IS-B's 3.9 / 1,233.88
255-1830-IS-D 3.8 / 1,204.55
255-1830-IS-M 3.73 / 1,182.06
255-1830-IS-B1 3.64 / 1,152.73
255-1830-IS-G 3.6 / 1,140.41
255-1830-IS 3.48 / 1,102.13
255-1830-IS-B's Ireland 3.22 / 1,020.73
255-1830-IS-B's Scotland 2.94 / 932.74
255-1830-IS-B1 Scotland 2.56 / 811.75
255-1830-IS-C Ireland 2.56 / 811.75
255-1830-IS-C 2.52 / 797.82
255-1830-IS-B1 Ireland 2.16 / 684.24
255-1830-IS-B2 2.07 / 657.02
255-1830-IS-B3 1.78 / 563.16
255-1830-IS-G Ireland 1.78 / 563.16
255-1830-IS-D Norway 0.89 / 281.58

MJost
08-23-2013, 02:28 PM
mike,

Please move these L159.2 conversations to another Thread.

Mjost

[[[Mikewww/Moderator 08/23/2013: On the P312/U106 Germanic/Celtic thread we started getting into the weeds so I'm moving some of those posts here, per Mark's wise request.]]]

Dubhthach
08-23-2013, 03:56 PM
Mark,

So If I'm reading your post correct the highest varience withing L159.2+ (as oppose to Z255+/L159.2-) is in Ireland is this correct? What is the definition regarding the various subclusters? I'm assuming -B is to do with Beattie's?

-Paul
(DF41+)

MJost
08-23-2013, 04:30 PM
Mark,

So If I'm reading your post correct the highest varience withing L159.2+ (as oppose to Z255+/L159.2-) is in Ireland is this correct? What is the definition regarding the various subclusters? I'm assuming -B is to do with Beattie's?

-Paul
(DF41+)

The highest two varieties are these two A clusters.

255-1830-IS-A Ireland 6.88 / 2,177.86
255-1830-IS-A 4.66 / 1,477.72

I dont think -B's are defined for the Beattie's, b

All of this needs to be investigates as to how the ages match up with any known history with these L159.2 guys using surnames etc.

Mark

marosjor
08-23-2013, 06:46 PM
How do the Z255+/L159.2- people fit into the Z255+ picture? Surnames like O'Shea (Cork), Gleeson (Tipperary), McHale (Mayo) seem to represent the Irish Z255+, L159.2-. Carroll and McMahon also have people who are Z255+, L159.2-.

Margaret Jordan

MJost
08-23-2013, 09:49 PM
How do the Z255+/L159.2- people fit into the Z255+ picture? Surnames like O'Shea (Cork), Gleeson (Tipperary), McHale (Mayo) seem to represent the Irish Z255+, L159.2-. Carroll and McMahon also have people who are Z255+, L159.2-.

Margaret Jordan Good question.

R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* I will assume as I didn't check, are negative L159.2

Z255* All
Variance / Coalescence / Founders
4.67 / 1,479.54 / 1,670.3

Z255* Ireland
Variance / Coalescence / Founders
5.15 / 1,630.62 / 2,296.7

Do these Surnames help converge to a probable geographical origination? Seem to me they do.

MJost

marosjor
08-24-2013, 09:32 AM
Good question.

R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* I will assume as I didn't check, are negative L159.2

Z255* All
Variance / Coalescence / Founders
4.67 / 1,479.54 / 1,670.3

Z255* Ireland
Variance / Coalescence / Founders
5.15 / 1,630.62 / 2,296.7

Do these Surnames help converge to a probable geographical origination? Seem to me they do.

MJost


Good question.

R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* I will assume as I didn't check, are negative L159.2

Z255* All
Variance / Coalescence / Founders
4.67 / 1,479.54 / 1,670.3

Z255* Ireland
Variance / Coalescence / Founders
5.15 / 1,630.62 / 2,296.7

Do these Surnames help converge to a probable geographical origination? Seem to me they do.

MJost

Thanks Mark. I wouldn't assume that Z255* implies L159.2-. Geno 2.0 doesn't test for L159.2 for example. I am inclined to think that the surnames associated with Z255+, L159.2 does imply an Irish cluster.

Regards,
Margaret

MJost
08-24-2013, 08:29 PM
I guess MikeW did name the clusters, originally, by surnames.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beatty_Byrnes_DNA/message/3583

Re: Another look at the major lineages of R-L159.2 and Irish Sea folks
Posted by MikeW Thu Jul 14, 2011

> > Here are the STR signature criteria I used. If a surname appears three
times, I list it in brackets.
> >
> > I generally don't use cultural or geographic labels so the 1830-IS is just
neutral label for what is basically Irish Sea or Leinster, etc.
> >
> > 1830-IS-A___: 448<=18 449>=30 442=11 446=14 391=10 (389i>=14)
> > 1830-IS-B1__: 448<=18 449>=30 442=11 449<=29 [Beattie]
> > 1830-IS-B2__: 448<=18 449>=30 442=11 449<=29 [Byrnes, Barry]
> > 1830-IS-B3__: 448<=18 449>=30 442=11 389i=14 458=16 464d=18 557=17 446=14
[Rhea]
> > 1830-IS-C___: 448<=18 449>=30 389i=14 442=11 446>=14 464c,d=16,16 439=11
[Cavanaugh]
> > 1830-IS-D___: 448<=18 449>=30 389i=14,15 442<=11 393=14
> > 1830-IS-G___: 448<=18 449>=30 442=11 439>=13 464=15,15,16,17 [Gaston]
> > 1830-IS-M___: 448<=18 449>=30 389i=14 442=11 459=9,9 446=14 557=17 [Murphy]
> > 1830-IS-O___: 448<=18 449>=30 389i=14,15 442=11 406s1=11 557=17 (446>=14)
[O'Shea, McCain]
> > 1830-IS*____: 448<=18 449>=30 442=11 (389i>=14) [McHale] ... a paragroup
that doesn't fit into above
> > 1830X-L159+_: L159.2+ but not 1830-IS = f52325 McCain, f189806 Daniels,
fN12172 O'Connor
> >
> > These are not strict criteria. I just looked for patterns at 67 markers and
double checked the GD's before grouping. I generally only look at surnames as
"tie-breakers." This is a work in progress so I'm looking for feedback."

MJost

Kopfjäger
08-25-2013, 03:43 AM
Edit: Added original info posted in the previous thread



It could very well have a Rhine core origin ancestry. Of tested members there was only two continental guys, one German and one French. Of 134 HTs, 91 have reported 'Old World County' entries.

[/HTML]

Besides the Norwegians, which are often the subject of much discussion, there are a number of samples who inherit the "Irish Sea" or Z255 haplotype with roots in Continental European countries like France and Germany:

1. Schneider, L159.2+ - This is the one to which you are probably referring, with ancestry from Montbronn, France (it used to be a part of Germany and the population speaks an Alsatian variety of German)

2. Boston, L159.2+ - This family traces back to the Rhineland-Palatinate area, the name being a derivation of Bastian (Sebastian). Their ancestor settled in the United States during the Revolutionary War.

3. Rosenburg, L159.2+ - Family traces back to Maryland, but tradition states of German origin

4. Baubie, L159.2+ - French origin, although, because he inherits the L159.2 mutation and does not match other French Baubies, he now thinks he is Irish

5. Polete, "Irish Sea" Modal - French origin, ancestors settled among other Missouri French families before the Revolutionary War

6. Bach, "Irish Sea" Modal - German origin from the Rhineland

7. Schwartz, "Irish Sea" Modal - German origin

8. Prudhomme, "Irish Sea" Modal - French origin, family settled in Quebec before moving to the States

9. Probst, L159.2+ - Family hails from Hoffenheim, Germany, near the Rhineland. He now thinks he is Irish since he has close matches with the McCabe/Ball family. He may be right, but this is the only case with which I would concur due to him being a perfect 67 marker match with them.

As you can see, there are indeed other samples with Continental European origins other than Norway that are Z255+ or are predicted to test positive for it. The problem is, as it has always been, is getting in contact with some of these folks, and acknowledging the massive British Isles bias in the databases. I doubt the aforementioned names are descendants of the O'Tooles.

EDIT: 10. Doyen - I forgot about this one, and we have been exchanging e-mails, although he stopped replying as of late. The family is of French origins, he says either in Belgium or nearby. He was originally interested in joining the project and testing for L159.2, but has disappeared since.

MJost
08-25-2013, 06:33 AM
Besides the Norwegians, which are often the subject of much discussion, there are a number of samples who inherit the "Irish Sea" or Z255 haplotype with roots in Continental European countries like France and Germany:
...
As you can see, there are indeed other samples with Continental European origins other than Norway that are Z255+ or are predicted to test positive for it. The problem is, as it has always been, is getting in contact with some of these folks, and acknowledging the massive British Isles bias in the databases. I doubt the aforementioned names are descendants of the O'Tooles.



Yes I see your point, as there are more but mostly predicted and not tested for L159.2. These guys really need to be tested to see how they age.

I have believe L159.2 is truely Irish Sea with Ireland having some of the oldest by by variance.

Mark

rms2
08-25-2013, 01:10 PM
Besides the Norwegians, which are often the subject of much discussion, there are a number of samples who inherit the "Irish Sea" or Z255 haplotype with roots in Continental European countries like France and Germany:

1. Schneider, L159.2+ - This is the one to which you are probably referring, with ancestry from Montbronn, France (it used to be a part of Germany and the population speaks an Alsatian variety of German)

I remember recruiting him for L21 testing. He used to belong to the R-L21 Plus Project but apparently quit. He only has 37 markers in Ysearch (FWX3R), but his haplotype neighbors are all British Isles. I see he has 67 markers. I don't know how his 67-marker matches stack up. It would be interesting to run him for genetic distance against the other members of the R-L21 Plus Project.



2. Boston, L159.2+ - This family traces back to the Rhineland-Palatinate area, the name being a derivation of Bastian (Sebastian). Their ancestor settled in the United States during the Revolutionary War.

This one is not in the R-L21 Plus Project either, which is too bad, but he's in Ysearch with 67 markers (VAHBN). All his closest neighbors are British Isles folks, as well, several of them at 7 away at 67 markers.



3. Rosenburg, L159.2+ - Family traces back to Maryland, but tradition states of German origin

This one is likewise not in the R-L21 Plus Project, but has 67 markers in YSearch (AY82H). He has a Scot (Carey, 6TBUU) at 6 away at 67 markers.



4. Baubie, L159.2+ - French origin, although, because he inherits the L159.2 mutation and does not match other French Baubies, he now thinks he is Irish

I recruited this gentleman for L21 testing, as well. He has suspected his ancestry is not French as long as I have known him because of his lack of matches in his surname project. He has a boatload of fairly close matches at 67 markers, ranging from 4 to 7 away, and all of them have British Isles surnames, mostly Irish.

I think his belief that he is Irish is pretty well founded.



5. Polete, "Irish Sea" Modal - French origin, ancestors settled among other Missouri French families before the Revolutionary War

Couldn't find that one anywhere.



6. Bach, "Irish Sea" Modal - German origin from the Rhineland

Couldn't find this one anywhere either.



7. Schwartz, "Irish Sea" Modal - German origin

Couldn't find him in the Z255 Project, and there are too many Schwartzes in Ysearch to hunt through for my taste. The only Schwartz in the R-L21 Plus Project (Swartz, kit 132844), hasn't been tested for Z255 or L159.2 and doesn't appear to have the right haplotype.



8. Prudhomme, "Irish Sea" Modal - French origin, family settled in Quebec before moving to the States

Couldn't find that one anywhere either.



9. Probst, L159.2+ - Family hails from Hoffenheim, Germany, near the Rhineland. He now thinks he is Irish since he has close matches with the McCabe/Ball family. He may be right, but this is the only case with which I would concur due to him being a perfect 67 marker match with them.

Yeah, I agree. He's Ysearch NHCXU. As you said, he matches a McCabe (6YZ8M) exactly at 37 markers (all he has in Ysearch).



As you can see, there are indeed other samples with Continental European origins other than Norway that are Z255+ or are predicted to test positive for it. The problem is, as it has always been, is getting in contact with some of these folks, and acknowledging the massive British Isles bias in the databases. I doubt the aforementioned names are descendants of the O'Tooles.

I know the FTDNA data base is heavily skewed to the British Isles, but these folks, the ones I could find to check, anyway, are so close to Isles folks that I honestly don't think the data base is the problem.

I have spent a lot of time recruiting folks for the R-L21 Plus Project, with an emphasis on continentals, especially in the project's early days. I can tell you that many of them weren't so "continental". In the U.S., so many folks are of plain vanilla Isles ancestry but want so much to be something more exotic that they leap at a possible "German" or "French" or other continental European origin for their surname. I am not accusing any of the folks listed above of doing that, but I know it happens. I did it myself at one point. Years ago I hired a genealogist to help with my family tree. She found a possible German connection: a man in the Northern Panhandle of West Virginia (where my mdka was born in 1804) whose surname had been Stephan but who changed it to Stevens, no doubt to fit in. I was thrilled. Y-dna testing has since disabused me of that theory, and, in the words of B.B. King, "the thrill is gone." (The paper trail likewise offers no support for it.)

My honest opinion is that Z255 is probably of Isles origin. The continentals you listed - the ones I could check, anyway - are all too close to Isles folks to be believable as anything else.



EDIT: 10. Doyen - I forgot about this one, and we have been exchanging e-mails, although he stopped replying as of late. The family is of French origins, he says either in Belgium or nearby. He was originally interested in joining the project and testing for L159.2, but has disappeared since.

Is that one Ysearch AK7H5? If so, his closest matches (35/37) in Ysearch are Irish and M222+.

Neal, if you wouldn't mind, please ask your project members to join the R-L21 Plus Project. Thanks.

Kopfjäger
08-25-2013, 01:26 PM
I disagree. The ones listed above can be found in their respective surname pages at FTDNA (with the exception of Prudhomme, who is a 37 marker match with myself), and I have spoken to a few of them who have no doubt about their Continental origins. And the database bias is and will continue to be a problem. You mentioned it before, and there is no reason it has changed since then. The sampling bias continues to grow, in my opinion. With the exception of those who have already tested L159.2+, I expect the others to also test positive.

We cannot keep telling these people they are Irish because they happen to have 67 marker matches with men of British Isles ancestry. I think that is doing a disservice to them, and is not acknowledging the massive sampling bias at play here. I gave the Z253 example earlier because it is the closest relative to Z255, and can also be found on the Continent. These Z253+ samples of Continental origins have plenty of Irish/British matches at 37 and 67 marker levels, but I would never tell them they are a descendant of an Irishman or Scotsman.

rms2
08-25-2013, 01:33 PM
How can a handful of men six or seven or even four away from British Isles folks at 67 markers, in a clade that has its center of gravity around the Irish Sea, be of completely separate and older continental origin?

You yourself identify most if not all of them as belonging to the very same haplotype cluster.

These folks (your continentals and their Isles neighbors) would all share a common y-dna ancestor a thousand years ago or less.

Look at the evidence.

Kopfjäger
08-25-2013, 01:48 PM
I am looking at the evidence, and the reason why the cluster is "Irish"-based is mainly due to the bias that exists in the database,

rms2
08-25-2013, 01:59 PM
I am looking at the evidence, and the reason why the cluster is "Irish"-based is mainly due to the bias that exists in the database,

I might agree . . . if your continentals weren't such close matches to Isles folks. They're too close to each other and belong to the same haplotype cluster. It isn't likely that cluster arose on the Continent and then spread to the Isles.

Kopfjäger
08-25-2013, 02:07 PM
In my opinion, it is unlikely that Continentals who almost universally trace ancestry back to the German Rhineland/France area, are descendants of Irishmen.

Kopfjäger
08-26-2013, 01:17 AM
I just heard back from one of the Blakes in the Blake DNA Project, and I am not sure if I mentioned this before, but the Blakes of Galway have tested L159.2+. From what Mr. Blake tells me, his ancestor is Richard Caddell Blake - this family being one of the Tribes of Galway. Anywho, Richard Caddell Blake is believed to be originally from Wales, which is consistent with the name "Caddell".

rms2
08-26-2013, 11:46 AM
In my opinion, it is unlikely that Continentals who almost universally trace ancestry back to the German Rhineland/France area, are descendants of Irishmen.

There are only a handful of them, after all, and most if not all of them are Americans and Canadians. They could be wrong about their paper trails, and those who are not could be among those relatively few continental Europeans whose y-dna ancestors came from the British Isles sometime during the historical period.

I don't think all of the L21 on the Continent is of Isles origin, but certainly some of it is. When you have a handful of folks who belong to a largely Isles subclade, and to the very same haplotype cluster as a lot of British Isles folks (at genetic distances ranging from four to seven away at 67 markers!), it's difficult to think of any other reasonable alternative.

TigerMW
08-26-2013, 02:30 PM
I might agree . . . if your continentals weren't such close matches to Isles folks. They're too close to each other and belong to the same haplotype cluster. It isn't likely that cluster arose on the Continent and then spread to the Isles.

In my opinion, it is unlikely that Continentals who almost universally trace ancestry back to the German Rhineland/France area, are descendants of Irishmen.

I went in and looked at the Irish Sea haplotypes for clues on unusual situations, matches in clusters, etc. I couldn't figure it out. I don't see any real tell-tale signs of whether they are Isles originated or continental originated.

Their coalescence timing seems to be about 500-1000 AD but I don't think that helps understand origination.

It's a bit of a strange configuration. They are found on both sides of the Irish Sea in good numbers to go along with Norway and then the German/Rhine area. However, I find it odd that even though they our on the west side of Great Britain I don't see them down below in western parts of France. That's a bit strange I think. Anyway, I don't have any vote one way or another.

Dubhthach
08-26-2013, 02:46 PM
...
I find it odd that even though they our on the west side of Great Britain I don't see them down below in western parts of France. That's a bit strange I think.

I would say that isn't particularly strange when you look at the history of the Irish sea region in the period 800-1200AD.

I'd be curious about how many Z255* (L159.2-) we have and what their distribution is.

-Paul
(DF41+)

TigerMW
08-26-2013, 05:00 PM
... I'd be curious about how many Z255* (L159.2-) we have and what their distribution is.
I agree with you that early branching SNP diversity is important but I'm not sure about Z255*. You should join the Beatty/Byrnes 2c2g yahoo group to listen in on their discussions. L159.2 is a questionable SNP in terms of its stability. I think there is a chance it'll eventually be knocked off ISOGG status. We need to find a substitute for it.

Here are the Z255+ L159.2- people I can find.

f249281 McLachlan R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* 255- uas Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyllshire, Morvern
f200510 Bell R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* 255-1411 zzzUnkOrigin
fN101540 Gleason R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* 255-1411 zzzUnkOrigin
f202249 McMahon R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* 255-1411 Ireland
f126655 Mobley R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* 255-1411 England
f100136 Phelps R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* 255-1411 zzzUnkOrigin
f228288 Prendergrast R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* 255-1411 Ireland
f217441 zzzUnk(Michael) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* 255-1411 England
f141428 McConnell R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* 255-1412 UK
f150687 Nicholson R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* 255-1412 zzzUnkOrigin
f12757 O'Shea(Cork) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* 255-1830-11 Ireland, Munster, Co. Cork, Millstreet
f225265 McHale R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* 255-1830-21 Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo
f139196 McHale R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* 255-1830-21 Ireland, Connacht, Co. Mayo, Tubbernaveen

There are hard to explain anamolies like McHale R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255* is a GD=5 at 67 from these two L159.2+ guys:
McInvale R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255>L159.2+
Owen R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255>L159.2+

It could be just convergence but since we have L159 showing up in other places, like both I2a1a and U152, it's a bit worrisome.

When you add the DYS464X 3c1g sprinkled in with the rare (but standard for Irish Sea) 2c2g results that contradict the SNP tests you have to wonder. Remember, L159 is the other side, physically, of L69. Z255* could be a back mutation.

MJost
08-26-2013, 06:08 PM
Z255* could be a back mutation.

Very Good point.

MJost

Kopfjäger
08-26-2013, 11:06 PM
Mike, thank you for addressing the back-mutation issue with Z255* (or, rather with L159.2). This is something our project has discussed for some time, and consider it a real possibility. Like you said, there are a number of samples that inherit the Z255 modal with roots on the Continent. If we can just put aside the Norwegians for a moment, there are a number of German and French surnames that inherit the signature. In fact, I came across a Spanish fellow in the Iberian Project a few days ago.

The ultimate issue is getting these folks to test. The interesting thing to me, especially about the German samples, is these guys all trace an ancestry back to the Rhineland area, at least from Lorraine in Northeastern France to the Rhineland-Palatinate. I have spoken with them before, and besides one I can think of (Probst), there has never been any thought of a NPE, or a possibility of Irish/British ancestry. These folks have solid pedigrees back to France and Germany.

rms2
08-27-2013, 11:47 AM
I went in and looked at the Irish Sea haplotypes for clues on unusual situations, matches in clusters, etc. I couldn't figure it out. I don't see any real tell-tale signs of whether they are Isles originated or continental originated.

Their coalescence timing seems to be about 500-1000 AD but I don't think that helps understand origination.

It's a bit of a strange configuration. They are found on both sides of the Irish Sea in good numbers to go along with Norway and then the German/Rhine area. However, I find it odd that even though they our on the west side of Great Britain I don't see them down below in western parts of France. That's a bit strange I think. Anyway, I don't have any vote one way or another.

My vote is for an Isles origination. Movement to the Isles from the Continent in the period from 500-1000 AD primarily involved, first, the Anglo-Saxons, and, second, the Vikings. Can you think of another significant population movement from the Continent to the Isles during that time? I can't.

Is anyone prepared to argue that Z255 arrived in the Isles with the Anglo-Saxons? With the Vikings?

On the other hand, we know that Irishmen and other Isles men went to Scandinavia and elsewhere on the Continent. For Z255 to appear there in the small numbers we are currently seeing would not take a major migration. And some of the Z255 continentals have British Isles matches at from 4 to 7 away at 67 markers.

Given the distribution of the rest of DF13 and of Z255 itself, the answer, it seems to me, is obvious.

The y-dna data base is badly skewed to the Isles, but I don't think it is distorting the Z255 picture all that much.

TigerMW
08-27-2013, 03:16 PM
My vote is for an Isles origination. Movement to the Isles from the Continent in the period from 500-1000 AD primarily involved, first, the Anglo-Saxons, and, second, the Vikings. Can you think of another significant population movement from the Continent to the Isles during that time? I can't.

Is anyone prepared to argue that Z255 arrived in the Isles with the Anglo-Saxons? With the Vikings?

On the other hand, we know that Irishmen and other Isles men went to Scandinavia and elsewhere on the Continent. For Z255 to appear there in the small numbers we are currently seeing would not take a major migration. And some of the Z255 continentals have British Isles matches at from 4 to 7 away at 67 markers.

Given the distribution of the rest of DF13 and of Z255 itself, the answer, it seems to me, is obvious.

The y-dna data base is badly skewed to the Isles, but I don't think it is distorting the Z255 picture all that much.

I don't know which direction Z255 was coming and going.

A coalescence age is an expansion age, not the age of Z255 itself. Z255 could be up to 4000 years old because that is about how old DF13 is.

I think your last point about the bias in our databases should not be underestimated. The penetration in testing of the Isles versus France or Germany is ten's (not just ten) of times more. I don't know how one could determine when distortion is or isn't occurring. We need more surveys of the continent at the level of DF13's subclades, which would include Z255.

I think it is very possible that DF13 originated on the continent. If it did, that makes it a possibility that any of its major subclades originated there too. I don't know and I'm not arguing for an affirmative case of tying Z255 to Vikings but I don't see why that is out of the question. They went down the Rhine as well as to Ireland, but that is a moot point. We do NOT need a major movement of people for a founder about 1500 years ago to pop up somewhere, plus we don't know the real ages anyway.

I kind of like Paul D's association of the surnames, because the Z255 group is thick with people who could have been (and think they are) tied with an Irish royalty in Leinster and it would make sense that those people intermarried with the Vikings as Paul's research indicated. So I guess, I lean a little toward the Irish to Scandinavia direction too, but I really don't think we can rule out other things, particularly given the spread of Z255.

Dubhthach
08-27-2013, 03:59 PM
I should point out that during the 10th and 11th centuries there were plenty of ties between Ireland and the Rhineland. Bran mac Máelmórda died in Koln in 1052 for example. He had ceased to be King of Leinster in 1018 after his first cousin Sigtrygg II Silkbeard Olafsson (King of Dublin) had him blinded. The O'Brynes of Leinster are descended from Bran, their name in Irish been Ó Broin (grandson/descendants of Bran).

Of course Sigtrygg (Sitric in Irish) mother was Gormfhlaith (Gormlaith) who had been married to three kings namely:

Óláfr kváran aka. Óláfr Sigtryggsson (Amlaíb Cuarán aka. Amlaíb mac Sitric) -- King of Dublin and Northumbria
Máel Sechnaill mac Domnaill -- High King of Ireland (980-1002, 1014-1022). member of Clann Cholmáin of Southern Uí Néill (Meath)
Brian Boru -- High King of Ireland (1002-1014), King of Munster (978-1014). member of Dál gCais

There are records that german artisans worked on the Rock of Cashel building Cormac's Chapel during the 1120's etc. If anything the changes in church architecture in Ireland during the period 1050-1150 reflect links to Germany.

Kopfjäger
08-27-2013, 09:09 PM
I don't know which direction Z255 was coming and going.


I think it is very possible that DF13 originated on the continent. If it did, that makes it a possibility that any of its major subclades originated there too. I don't know and I'm not arguing for an affirmative case of tying Z255 to Vikings but I don't see why that is out of the question. They went down the Rhine as well as to Ireland, but that is a moot point. We do NOT need a major movement of people for a founder about 1500 years ago to pop up somewhere, plus we don't know the real ages anyway.


In essence, this is what I am saying as well, and I believe this is the fairest assessment one can give on Z255 at this point. The various Continentals, especially the Germans/French, are unique in that they do not cluster well together, other than being Z255+ and inheriting the signature. I also use this illustration when comparing the Norwegian "Romsdal" cluster and the Holmang/Walle lineage from Nordland - they are not closely matched to each other. In the case of Holmang, he has no 67 (and 111) marker matches, and only two 37 marker matches - one being a cousin with roots in Nordland. Schneider (Lorraine, France) is a similar case.

FTDNA put it aptly when describing Z255/L159.2 as being most common in Northwestern Europe, rather than just being defined as an Irish/British clade. I look forward to recruiting more Continentals as they surface in the near future.

rms2
08-28-2013, 11:11 AM
I haven't taken a close look at the Z255+ Norwegians yet, but a number of the non-Scandinavian continentals I looked at had some fairly close Isles matches (within a range of 4 to 7 away at 67 markers).

I don't see how that leaves a whole lot of room for doubt, but okay.

It would be nice if all of the Scandinavian Z255 folks belonged to the R-L21 Plus Project so I could take a close look at them, but it is what it is, I guess. I'm not going to enter all their haplotypes in Ysearch manually and run them; I'm not quite that motivated. ;)

rms2
08-28-2013, 11:49 AM
I don't know which direction Z255 was coming and going.

A coalescence age is an expansion age, not the age of Z255 itself. Z255 could be up to 4000 years old because that is about how old DF13 is.

That kind of reminds me of the old "population bottleneck" argument. Does it seem likely that Z255 is anywhere near that old? Not based on the evidence we have right now, and that's all we have to go on until some radical new data turn up.




I think your last point about the bias in our databases should not be underestimated. The penetration in testing of the Isles versus France or Germany is ten's (not just ten) of times more. I don't know how one could determine when distortion is or isn't occurring. We need more surveys of the continent at the level of DF13's subclades, which would include Z255.

That is true, but I think we would see more continentals popping up, at random, who were Z255+ and/or L159.2+, if either was common on the Continent and if Z255 originated there.

Neal can correct me if I am wrong, but I think the small handful of Z255 continentals you see are the result of his commendable recruiting efforts, fishing for people with the Irish Sea Haplotype in Ysearch and various FTDNA projects. In other words, these folks didn't just appear out of the vast pool of likely Z255+ continental Europeans; they had to be hunted for based on what is largely an Isles haplotype cluster.

I'm not a betting man, but if I were, I would bet that Neal's recruiting effort is distorting the continental appearance of Z255 much more than the Isles skew in FTDNA's data base. I would wager that in reality Z255 comprises a minuscule percentage of continental y-dna, and that what little is there is entirely of Isles derivation.



I think it is very possible that DF13 originated on the continent. If it did, that makes it a possibility that any of its major subclades originated there too. I don't know and I'm not arguing for an affirmative case of tying Z255 to Vikings but I don't see why that is out of the question. They went down the Rhine as well as to Ireland, but that is a moot point. We do NOT need a major movement of people for a founder about 1500 years ago to pop up somewhere, plus we don't know the real ages anyway.

I agree with you about DF13, although I also think it is possible that it originated in Britain, but I disagree about Z255. I know I could be wrong, and my mind is open to new developments, but that's what I think right now.



I kind of like Paul D's association of the surnames, because the Z255 group is thick with people who could have been (and think they are) tied with an Irish royalty in Leinster and it would make sense that those people intermarried with the Vikings as Paul's research indicated. So I guess, I lean a little toward the Irish to Scandinavia direction too, but I really don't think we can rule out other things, particularly given the spread of Z255.

I agree, but I don't think there is much of a spread to Z255. What there is is merely apparent, not substantive.

Kopfjäger
08-28-2013, 04:17 PM
I haven't taken a close look at the Z255+ Norwegians yet, but a number of the non-Scandinavian continentals I looked at had some fairly close Isles matches (within a range of 4 to 7 away at 67 markers).

I don't see how that leaves a whole lot of room for doubt, but okay.

It would be nice if all of the Scandinavian Z255 folks belonged to the R-L21 Plus Project so I could take a close look at them, but it is what it is, I guess. I'm not going to enter all their haplotypes in Ysearch manually and run them; I'm not quite that motivated. ;)

We are just going to have to disagree, Rich. By the way, those Continentals I mentioned are all in the FTDNA database. The ones who arent are Norwegians - one with roots in Hordaland, and the Overlands who cluster with the Romsdal folks. I always tell these folks to join the L21 Project after they test postive for Z255 or L159.2, but are non-responsive after initial e-mails.

TigerMW
08-28-2013, 04:45 PM
...
Neal can correct me if I am wrong, but I think the small handful of Z255 continentals you see are the result of his commendable recruiting efforts, fishing for people with the Irish Sea Haplotype in Ysearch and various FTDNA projects. In other words, these folks didn't just appear out of the vast pool of likely Z255+ continental Europeans; they had to be hunted for based on what is largely an Isles haplotype cluster.

I'm not a betting man, but if I were, I would bet that Neal's recruiting effort is distorting the continental appearance of Z255 much more than the Isles skew in FTDNA's data base. I would wager that in reality Z255 comprises a minuscule percentage of continental y-dna, and that what little is there is entirely of Isles derivation....
I still don't know where Z255 originated but I caution against looking for vast pools of a haplotype as an indicator of origin. That's just another way of saying higher frequencies don't necessarily indicate origins. Again, I don't have a theory about the origin of Z255 but I find the Irish Sea/Viking inter-marriage alliance concept most intriguing just because of all those surnames connected with the Leinster kings.... plus I guess since I've got a Leinster/location lineage. Well, I also have an Irish Sea/Leinster Z255+ haplotype lineage but they believe they are Scots who came to Donegal as a result of the Monmouth uprising so that doesn't help one way or another in understanding Z255's origin.

rms2
08-29-2013, 10:50 AM
"Vast pool" was tongue-in-cheek. The point was that there aren't that many Z255+ men on the Continent. The handful that are showing up are the consequence of Neal's persistent hunting for the Irish Sea Haplotype.

Kopfjäger
08-29-2013, 11:34 AM
"Vast pool" was tongue-in-cheek. The point was that there aren't that many Z255+ men on the Continent. The handful that are showing up are the consequence of Neal's persistent hunting for the Irish Sea Haplotype.

Most of these Continental findings are actually me stumbling upon them when perusing members' matches. Their respective surname projects confirm that they inherit the Z255 modal since these Continentals fall off the radar after matching on 25 markers. I don't recruit any differently than other administrators, at least not as persistently.

rms2
08-29-2013, 11:46 AM
Well, several of them that I checked, as I mentioned in an earlier post, were definitely on the British Isles radar at 67 markers, with matches to British Isles folks at from 4 to 7 away.

TigerMW
08-29-2013, 02:03 PM
"Vast pool" was tongue-in-cheek. The point was that there aren't that many Z255+ men on the Continent. The handful that are showing up are the consequence of Neal's persistent hunting for the Irish Sea Haplotype.

I understood it was tongue-in-cheek. The point I was getting to still applies.

That's just another way of saying higher frequencies don't necessarily indicate origins.

If Americans primarily immigrated from the Rhine Valley with a handful from the British Isles, who knows? We might be calling the Irish Sea modal the L21 Rhine Valley modal instead. I'm not betting on that, but it is something to keep in mind along with the concern that high frequencies don't equal origins.

Neal's STR based hunting efforts, like all of ours, push the coalescence dates younger. Naturally, we are looking for matches, semi-matches or what have you. What's really needed is a good blanketing continental survey that tests for DF13 and at least DF13's major subclades. We just don't have that.

rms2
08-30-2013, 11:01 AM
I understood it was tongue-in-cheek. The point I was getting to still applies.


If Americans primarily immigrated from the Rhine Valley with a handful from the British Isles, who knows? We might be calling the Irish Sea modal the L21 Rhine Valley modal instead. I'm not betting on that, but it is something to keep in mind along with the concern that high frequencies don't equal origins.

I don't think higher frequencies equal origins and never did. When you look at the totality of L21, DF13, and Z255; when you take into account that the very small handful of continental Z255 men are actually not too far off their Isles counterparts; and the fact that Z255+ Europeans never seem to pop up on their own, outside of the Irish Sea Haplotype (or the "XYZ Haplotype" - it's still far more common in the Isles than anywhere else); and the specific, historical Z255 Irish connection to Scandinavia and to the Rhineland, you have a pretty strong case for an Isles origin for Z255 and L159.2. That is more than merely "high frequency equals origin".



Neal's STR based hunting efforts, like all of ours, push the coalescence dates younger. Naturally, we are looking for matches, semi-matches or what have you. What's really needed is a good blanketing continental survey that tests for DF13 and at least DF13's major subclades. We just don't have that.

There is a difference. When we were testing French volunteers for L21, we were taking all comers except those who pretty obviously had little or no chance of a positive result: like individuals with 492=13 or who weren't even R1b. We did not hunt for French matches to Irish or other Isles guys; in fact, I avoided them and volunteers with ancestry in Bretagne, since I knew everyone would attribute their positive results to an Isles origin. I just wrote the head of the French Heritage DNA Project and asked him to solicit volunteers and have them email me.

Our French testing was pretty close to random and produced results that were supported later by studies like Busby et al and Ramos-Luis, which indicate that L21 has a significant presence in France, especially in the North. We got higher percentages because many of our volunteers were French Canadians and Americans with ancestry in northern France, but higher L21 percentages in the north of France are also supported by the studies I mentioned.

The Z255 Project could randomly test L21+ continentals outside the Irish Sea Haplotype, especially those without close Isles matches. Even a few hits would go a long way toward changing my mind.

Kopfjäger
08-30-2013, 01:38 PM
Regardless of how many Continentals one recruits or tests for a SNP like Z255, there is always going to be the massive sampling bias in favor of the British Isles. Coinciding with this fact is the situation we have with matches - there are so many Isles-based samples in the database that many Continentals are going to have British/Irish matches, distorting what appears to be their ancestral origins.

For example, I also administer the Korea DNA Project and one member expressed his concern that most of his results are Japanese. He thus concluded he was of Japanese origin. I informed him that these matches distort the full picture, and are more likely indicative of a shared ancestor further back in the ancient past due to the lack of Korean samples. I think Mike has a point that if the databases weren't so skewed towards Britain and Ireland, the Z255 group would not be solely identified with Ireland. The more Continentals I see matching the haplotype reinforces my belief that they are not Isles derived.

TigerMW
08-30-2013, 03:32 PM
I don't think higher frequencies equal origins and never did. When you look at the totality of L21, DF13, and Z255; when you take into account that the very small handful of continental Z255 men are actually not too far off their Isles counterparts; and the fact that Z255+ Europeans never seem to pop up on their own, outside of the Irish Sea Haplotype (or the "XYZ Haplotype" - it's still far more common in the Isles than anywhere else); and the specific, historical Z255 Irish connection to Scandinavia and to the Rhineland, you have a pretty strong case for an Isles origin for Z255 and L159.2. That is more than merely "high frequency equals origin".
Okay, I guess I don't understand the nuances. When I read what you just wrote I see words like "very small" and "more common". Implicit in those words relate counts or frequencies.

I think that "one does not a trend make" but even given the limited testing of Z255 on the continent and in Scandinavia, we a have decent number of Z255+. I guess what's a handful and what's decent is the old half glass/half full kind of thing, but Z255+ is there and its not just one family so we don't know the extent of Z255.

There is a point beyond in your paragraph above beyond the discussion of frequency. That is the historical connection of Ireland, Scandinavia and the Rhineland. However, since you are making a case for an "Isles origin" you must be assuming that the flow was from Ireland to Scandinavia and from Ireland to the Rhineland. If we are talking about the Viking Age, we also know there was at least some immigration flow from Scandinavia to Ireland and to the Rhineland. How do we know which direction who was going? Also, before the Viking Age, there could well have been migration from the Germany and the Rhineland vicinity into Scandinavia and/or Ireland.

Again, I'm fine with an Irish origin of Z255 and 255-1830 types of haplotypes. However, I just encourage us all to keep an open mind about which direction things were going. There are prehistoric and historic flows going in all kinds of directions.


There is a difference. When we were testing French volunteers for L21, we were taking all comers except those who pretty obviously had little or no chance of a positive result: like individuals with 492=13 or who weren't even R1b. We did not hunt for French matches to Irish or other Isles guys; in fact, I avoided them and volunteers with ancestry in Bretagne, since I knew everyone would attribute their positive results to an Isles origin. I just wrote the head of the French Heritage DNA Project and asked him to solicit volunteers and have them email me....

I was not pointing directly to the funded L21 testing of French haplotypes, but even in that there are biases that encourage younger coalescence beyond the avoidance of 492=13. Our projects are based on FTDNA testing penetration and biases. I'm just saying we aren't doing the scientific sampling of broad territories that scientists should be doing.

We've beat on this pretty hard so I'm done with commenting on Z255 origins for a while.

I'd love to see that project and they Beatty/Byrnes group go through with some fullgenomes or additional WTY or something like that. Besides breaking up the group I think there could well beside some SNPs above Z255 that align it with another large DF13 subclade. I've always found Z255 and Z253 interclade ages as lower than with other facets of DF13. That's probably just a little convergence but I do expect more SNPs immediately below DF13.

Kopfjäger
08-30-2013, 05:54 PM
That's one thing I think we can all agree on is getting some full genome tests in the oven for Z255+ folks. From what I gather, Z255 is the least explored subclade of DF13, so our group is in a good position to make some new discoveries. And I know Rich is trying to help and provide insight, but I think this is one of the few things we'll have to disagree on, at least until more evidence surfaces.

Dubhthach
08-30-2013, 10:56 PM
Ideally you will need at lest two Z255+ to test it would be best to have one L159.2+ and one L159.2-

rms2
08-31-2013, 12:50 PM
Regardless of how many Continentals one recruits or tests for a SNP like Z255, there is always going to be the massive sampling bias in favor of the British Isles. Coinciding with this fact is the situation we have with matches - there are so many Isles-based samples in the database that many Continentals are going to have British/Irish matches, distorting what appears to be their ancestral origins.

For example, I also administer the Korea DNA Project and one member expressed his concern that most of his results are Japanese. He thus concluded he was of Japanese origin. I informed him that these matches distort the full picture, and are more likely indicative of a shared ancestor further back in the ancient past due to the lack of Korean samples. I think Mike has a point that if the databases weren't so skewed towards Britain and Ireland, the Z255 group would not be solely identified with Ireland. The more Continentals I see matching the haplotype reinforces my belief that they are not Isles derived.

I agree that FTDNA's database is skewed to the Isles, but it still contains thousands of continental samples. Despite that fact, Z255+ and L159.2+ results from the Continent are limited to a handful who all belong not merely to the same haplogroup but to the very same haplotype cluster as Z255+ men from the Isles.

If Z255 originated on the Continent, what DF13 subclade did not originate on the Continent? (That's a rhetorical question. Don't bother answering it.)

Kopfjäger
08-31-2013, 12:57 PM
Even though the database contains thousands of Continental samples, this number is not commensurate with Irish and British totals.




If Z255 originated on the Continent, what DF13 subclade did not originate on the Continent? (That's a rhetorical question. Don't bother answering it.)

I think it would be fairly accurate at this point to say L226 or L193 did not originate on the Continent.

rms2
08-31-2013, 09:24 PM
Even though the database contains thousands of Continental samples, this number is not commensurate with Irish and British totals.

That's the point. The continental totals may not be commensurate with the Isles totals, but they still number in the thousands. If we did not have any British Isles samples at all, we would still have thousands of continental samples. So, forget about the Isles samples for a moment. Out of the thousands of continental samples, only a handful have tested Z255+, and those belong to the same haplotype cluster.




I think it would be fairly accurate at this point to say L226 or L193 did not originate on the Continent.

I agree, but I think Z255 probably originated in the Isles, too.

I think my own subclade, DF41, probably originated in the Isles, as well. The Stewarts have a tradition of Breton origin, and I believe it, but their Breton ancestor may have been descended from a Briton who went to Armorica in the immediate post-Roman Period.

Kopfjäger
09-01-2013, 03:42 AM
That's the point. The continental totals may not be commensurate with the Isles totals, but they still number in the thousands. If we did not have any British Isles samples at all, we would still have thousands of continental samples. So, forget about the Isles samples for a moment. Out of the thousands of continental samples, only a handful have tested Z255+, and those belong to the same haplotype cluster.


I agree, but I think Z255 probably originated in the Isles, too.

I think my own subclade, DF41, probably originated in the Isles, as well. The Stewarts have a tradition of Breton origin, and I believe it, but their Breton ancestor may have been descended from a Briton who went to Armorica in the immediate post-Roman Period.

It is likely Z255 did not originate in the British Isles, but as Mike said, this will be a perpetual disagreement until some new evidence surfaces that is conclusive about it. Speaking of DF41 (although not related to this thread), I believe it can also be found in Sweden, which may suggest other candidates can be found on the Continent that are not of Isles derivation.

rms2
09-01-2013, 11:22 AM
It is likely Z255 did not originate in the British Isles, but as Mike said, this will be a perpetual disagreement until some new evidence surfaces that is conclusive about it. Speaking of DF41 (although not related to this thread), I believe it can also be found in Sweden, which may suggest other candidates can be found on the Continent that are not of Isles derivation.

We have one man with a Swedish surname who is DF41, but he has a fairly close match at 67 markers (60/67) with a Scot and a family story of an NPE from a couple of generations back.

You should say, "In my opinion it is likely Z255 did not originate in the British Isles", since there really is no evidence at all that Z255 originated outside of the British Isles. In my opinion, the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence is that Z255 originated in the Isles.

Kopfjäger
09-01-2013, 01:31 PM
You're right. In my opinion, it is likely that Z255 originated on the Continent rather than the Isles.

rms2
09-02-2013, 01:34 PM
Ah, well. Time will tell.

Maybe you're right. It would be cool if you were.

Dubhthach
11-12-2013, 09:25 PM
Another Z255+/L159.2- in the Ireland project: 64633 -- Keefe

-Paul
(DF41+)

Kopfjäger
11-14-2013, 02:26 AM
Thank you, Paul. Mr. Keefe joined the Z255 Project today.

rms2
01-25-2014, 02:09 PM
Humphries, kit 273539, just got a Z255+ result via Geno 2.0. His y mdka was born in Canada, but that's a Welsh surname. He has a couple of L159.2 folks not too far off at 67 markers.

TigerMW
01-25-2014, 05:17 PM
Humphries, kit 273539, just got a Z255+ result via Geno 2.0. His y mdka was born in Canada, but that's a Welsh surname. He has a couple of L159.2 folks not too far off at 67 markers.
The STR signatures line up in this case. I had him as an Irish Sea/Leinster/Lagin type. He's 389i=14 to go with high 449 and high CDY's. He's missing the low 448, though. However, this signature is one of the weakest in terms of slow moving markers and consistency.

It is still recommended that all Z255+ types do the DYS464X advanced test?

TigerMW
06-02-2014, 02:52 PM
Another great forum, the Beatty-Byrnes group has invested a lot of time and great work on Z255 and L159. In an effort to not clutter some of their focus while having a broader Z255 discussion group, a new R1b-Z255-Project discussion group on yahoo has been initiated. This is not in any way intended to detract from the Beatty-Byrnes group and all of those folks are welcome in the Z255 group as an addition. Any and all Z255+ and L159.2+ folks are welcome to the new Z255 group.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-Z255-Project/info

Of course, this topic/section is still here and especially good for longer, complex discussions and speculations. For data storage and general project news and sharing the new Z255 yahoo group is now also available.

TigerMW
11-04-2014, 04:48 PM
We were off topic here so I moved the related posts as best I could to the the general R1b-L21 category to a new thread.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3406-Tumbleweed-hypothesis-on-settlement-in-Ireland-Britons-and-L21

Rory Cain
09-04-2015, 08:58 PM
The name of this thread L21 > DF13 > Z255 is due for an update, ZZ10 having wedged in between, and made Z255 ancestral brother to Z253. How does this impact on how we view Z255?

One contributor to the Z253 thread identifies Z253 tentatively with the Menapii and more confidently with the Belgae. (The Menapii were in any case Belgae). Some identify Z255 with the Laighin, whose invasion included the Belgae, under their Gaelic name of the Fir Belg.

Folks have been focused on their own clades up to now. I wonder if the Z253 and Z255 folks have now put their heads together. The result might be a more comprehensive view.

AtWhatCost
09-17-2015, 11:38 PM
Possibly the connection between Z253 and Z255 will be found within a connection between the Laigin and Fir Bolg (a group or groups associated with the Fir Bolg). I'm not referring to fairy tales here, there is undoubtedly some reality to these "legends". Do not the stories report a group of what later were the Fir Bolg left Ireland very early, went through Britain (some stayed) and back to the continent with others returning to the Isles again at a later date. Anyway maybe some are looking deeper into the way back connections between Z253 and Z255 and at ZZ10 and I think there are two other snps under ZZ10 but I haven't seen too much information about them. A key might be looking at all 4 (if it is still just the 4) groups under ZZ10. Then again, these are all extremely old snps so I guess it is going to be very difficult to figure out any origins, other than Z255's proposed association with the Laigin group.

fridurich
05-20-2016, 04:31 AM
Given the updates that Rory mentioned, would anyone say the DNA evidence shows a genetic relationship between the Beattys and some Gaelic Irish families?

At least one person in a previous post thought that Z255 could be a back mutation. Is that still a possibility, or not?

The Z255 Beattys, I think, were said to be of the border reiver family from close to the Scottish/English border. So, if there is a relationship between the Beattys and some Irish families, that will be interesting.

It would make me wonder when the two groups had a common ancestor and which direction the migration(s) went.

Thanks for any insight!

CillKenny
08-08-2016, 08:24 PM
Fridurich, Yfull estimate Z255 has a TMRCA of 1500 ybp with a confidence interval of +/- 350 years. As this thread shows of the Irish names associated with SNPs downstream of Z255 are strongly associated with an Laigin. This group were linked with the Leyn Penisula in Wales.

On reading a number of sources recently it seems that at around the time of the Roman invasion the Gangani and the Deceangli derivative group were in North Wales and further inland. These groups are considered later arrivals in Britain. In Ptolmey's map of Ireland it is indicated that a likely related group, Gangani, were located in North Munster - south of the Shannon (where there were groupings claiming to be Laigin later). I have read in more than one source that the earlier Irish name for an Laigin was Galeoin, which translates roughly as spear-men.

I think it reasonable to view that Z255 originated in Ireland in a group/grouping (if I can use that group) who moved between the lands their group held in the two islands. An Laigin were driven out of Wales by Cunedda who led the Votadini from the Scottish border region in the 5th century. Assimilation could well explain who Z255 men ended up in the Scottish border region. Some of their descendants might even have come back to Ireland during the plantations.

In my non-expert view an Laigin have to be seen in terms of much wider area of influence in the centuries before the historical era but battles in Britain with the Romans (attested in Laigin poetry in Ireland) and with the Northern Ui Neill meant that they probably have a wider genetic footprint that the maps from the 8th century would indicate.

MoonBeam
08-24-2016, 12:04 AM
I popped this on the FTDNA group... as CillKenny rightly points out Cunedda drove out any Irish settlers. Although there are records later on that say his grandsons may well be the ones who finished the job. Cunedda however was more connected with Manaw Goddodin which is north of modern Lothian so those Beattys are on the wrong side if there was any back-migration. What is likely however is that they were probably Irish who were with the Vikings when they were driven out of Dublin in about 900. There's a few folks in the Z255 group around Lancashire, some with "son" on the end of their names which would suggest some kind of Viking connection which would fit with settlement of Vikings and Irish in Wirral after their eviction from Dublin. I think Leinstermen were found to be fighting alongside the Dublin Vikings against the Ui Neill on occasion too.

There's also the Isle of Man... which was settled by Irish 5th century on wards and fell too Vikings around 820. There was probably a bit of migration away from there too... Merfyn Frych who would become King of Gwynedd in Wales moved out of there around that time. Though thats not to say anything controversial like the Welsh Kings were actually Laighin. :P

CillKenny
12-27-2016, 09:18 PM
I was re-reading this thread from the beginning tonight and decided to dig a little.

It was brought to my attention in the summer that there was a person of the Kavanagh surname that was confirmed Z255+ Z16429+ ZZ7_1. There are also 2 Murphys in the same grouping. With Murchad being the grandfather of Diarmiad Mac Murchada, this is in line with John Grenham's views on the origin of the Murphy surname in Wexford.

Tracking the ZZ7_1 man back to their surname project group, I found only one other Kavanagh in the same group that is confirmed Z255. I put the other 11 in the same group with Kavanagh variant surnames through Jim Cullen's haplogroup predictor using 37 markers. One came back very marginal in terms of being Z255 but the other 10 had over 95% probability of being Z255.

As we have known for a while the O'Byrnes are downstream of Z255+ Z16429+ ZZ7_1 and are according to the Irish Annals linked on the male line to the Kavanaghs sometime around 400 AD. If more Kavanaghs SNP tested (perhaps even some with a verified pedigree) it may be possible to identify the last shared SNP that they shared with the O'Byrnes, which would confirm the annals at least in this instance.

fridurich
12-28-2016, 12:20 AM
I was re-reading this thread from the beginning tonight and decided to dig a little.

It was brought to my attention in the summer that there was a person of the Kavanagh surname that was confirmed Z255+ Z16429+ ZZ7_1. There are also 2 Murphys in the same grouping. With Murchad being the grandfather of Diarmiad Mac Murchada, this is in line with John Grenham's views on the origin of the Murphy surname in Wexford.

Tracking the ZZ7_1 man back to their surname project group, I found only one other Kavanagh in the same group that is confirmed Z255. I put the other 11 in the same group with Kavanagh variant surnames through Jim Cullen's haplogroup predictor using 37 markers. One came back very marginal in terms of being Z255 but the other 10 had over 95% probability of being Z255.

As we have known for a while the O'Byrnes are downstream of Z255+ Z16429+ ZZ7_1 and are according to the Irish Annals linked on the male line to the Kavanaghs sometime around 400 AD. If more Kavanaghs SNP tested (perhaps even some with a verified pedigree) it may be possible to identify the last shared SNP that they shared with the O'Byrnes, which would confirm the annals at least in this instance.

Thanks, extremely interesting! I haven't heard much about Z255 in quite some time. I remember there were some descendants of Scottish border Beattys who were Z255 also.

CillKenny
12-29-2016, 04:13 PM
Thanks, extremely interesting! I haven't heard much about Z255 in quite some time. I remember there were some descendants of Scottish border Beattys who were Z255 also.

On the other end of the Z255 group Maurice Gleeson has done a lot of research in linking the surname to the annals. He gave a talk on this at Genetic Genealogy Ireland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCHOJVOY1lc).

The problem with Z255 is that it seems to emerge from nowhere in about 400AD [yfull's 95% CI is 66AD to 766AD]. Before that there are over a dozen unique SNPs without any other branches that have yet been discovered.

I think it is not doubted that in the annals the Ui Dunlaigne and Ui Cheinnselaig branches adhered themselves to the existing Leinster genealogies with the additional verses to the last will of Cathair Mar. But then the term Laigin is probably a collective description of a group of peoples.

The link to the Beattys is interesting in that it may relate to a group that were present in both Ireland and Scotland and might provide some tentative indication of a link between the Fir Domhann/Laigin and the Damnonii. I would leave it to the experts though to move beyond speculation on this one but suspect a long thin line like Z255 is not where you would look to show anything more definitive.

miiser
12-29-2016, 04:56 PM
As we have known for a while the O'Byrnes are downstream of Z255+ Z16429+ ZZ7_1 and are according to the Irish Annals linked on the male line to the Kavanaghs sometime around 400 AD. If more Kavanaghs SNP tested (perhaps even some with a verified pedigree) it may be possible to identify the last shared SNP that they shared with the O'Byrnes, which would confirm the annals at least in this instance.

To clarify, you must be speaking of just one particular lineage of O'Byrnes, right? O'Byrnes and Burns are VERY common names through Ireland, and appear in every major haplogroups that's found in Ireland. The haplogroup distribution of the Burns/O'Byrne name is comparable to the haplogroup distribution of the Irish as a whole. So I'm not sure it makes sense to consider a match in one lineage as support for the accuracy of the Annals. One of the many O'Byrne lineages is bound to match the Kavanaghs as a matter of simple chance. For example, there are also O'Byrnes who share my Z253>L1066 Curley lineage of the Roscommon area.

CillKenny
12-29-2016, 05:37 PM
To clarify, you must be speaking of just one particular lineage of O'Byrnes, right?

Yes it is a particular lineage which is centred around South Wicklow and surrounding counties, which is the ancestral home of the O'Byrnes as we know them from Irish history. Many of those tested have links to the different branches of the O'Byrnes of Wicklow. I think upward of 95% of people with the Byrne surname in that area are Z255. Almost all who have tested further are Z255+ Z16429+ ZZ7_1+ Z16950 before splitting up into smaller groupings. The Kavanagh ydna surname project has mostly grouped Z255 men together are the largest single block. Again the geography seems to be Wexford/Wicklow.

Paul Burns gave two talks at GGI 2014. One about the wider groups within their ydna project [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_YjCM-sK38] and one focused on the Leinster branch [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBUU7Z1GVMc].

jjtjr
01-01-2017, 05:01 PM
RE:
On the other end of the Z255 group Maurice Gleeson has done a lot of research in linking the surname to the annals. He gave a talk on this at Genetic Genealogy Ireland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCHOJVOY1lc).

That is my end of the Z255 Group. I have learned a lot from Maurice Gleeson. He also has a Blog that is well worth reading, especially for those of us who are Z16437+:

http://gleesondna.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/a-brief-tour-of-project.html

MoonBeam
01-02-2017, 02:15 AM
I was re-reading this thread from the beginning tonight and decided to dig a little.

It was brought to my attention in the summer that there was a person of the Kavanagh surname that was confirmed Z255+ Z16429+ ZZ7_1. There are also 2 Murphys in the same grouping. With Murchad being the grandfather of Diarmiad Mac Murchada, this is in line with John Grenham's views on the origin of the Murphy surname in Wexford.

Tracking the ZZ7_1 man back to their surname project group, I found only one other Kavanagh in the same group that is confirmed Z255. I put the other 11 in the same group with Kavanagh variant surnames through Jim Cullen's haplogroup predictor using 37 markers. One came back very marginal in terms of being Z255 but the other 10 had over 95% probability of being Z255.

As we have known for a while the O'Byrnes are downstream of Z255+ Z16429+ ZZ7_1 and are according to the Irish Annals linked on the male line to the Kavanaghs sometime around 400 AD. If more Kavanaghs SNP tested (perhaps even some with a verified pedigree) it may be possible to identify the last shared SNP that they shared with the O'Byrnes, which would confirm the annals at least in this instance.

I saw ZZ7_1 mentioned and got so excited. I'm the absolute oddball in that group. I'm pretty sure I'm a completely different branch of ZZ7_1 as I'm in Wales with ancestry pretty deep in Carmarthenshire. Essentially there was no Irish settlement in Wales post 500 AD. The only stray settlements by outsiders/strangers probably occurred around 820 (From Isle of Mann) and 900. The 900 settlement was on Ynys Mon and as far as I know was completely destroyed (It contained Norse Gaels). So I'd assume the last connection between my ancestors and any other ZZ7_1 was around 700-800 A.D.

Earlier Laighin settlement occurred around 400 A.D but was supposedly completely driven out. Plus I think that maybe to early for ZZ7_1's... manifestation? Hope that helps with any time frames.

CillKenny
02-09-2017, 10:18 PM
My Living DNA results are just in - I posted these on the results thread but just in case those interested in Z255 Living DNA gives this as breakdown of where R L21 is found. Not sure what the %s relate to though

Wales 46%
Ireland 38%
Scotland 26%
England 17%
France 9%
Netherlands 6%
Spain 3%
Germany 2%
Switzerland 2%
Norway