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Titus Valerius
11-11-2016, 04:04 PM
Hi there, I just received the latest results of my friend M. Basso, I already knew he's L21+ DF13+, now I know he's DF21+ as well. His ID on YSEARCH is RVXTM.
My friend is the fourth L21+ found in my area. I noticed an individual from La Spezia on L21 project of FTDNA and in 2013 Dr. Boattini found in my area 2 L21s+

oneillabu
11-12-2016, 11:13 PM
Hi there, I just received the latest results of my friend M. Basso, I already knew he's L21+ DF13+, now I know he's DF21+ as well. His ID on YSEARCH is RVXTM.
My friend is the fourth L21+ found in my area. I noticed an individual from La Spezia on L21 project of FTDNA and in 2013 Dr. Boattini found in my area 2 L21s+

In YSearch Basso matches a Floyd from Ireland, although it is only 12 markers there are matches on three slow mutation markers, the name Floyd in Ireland (see link) is a variation of Flood which is a Connacht name and this area is a DF21 hotspot in Ireland. There is a definite Religious link with DF21 in Ireland and it is possible that there could be a link to this region of Italy.

https://www.houseofnames.com/floyd-family-crest

Dubhthach
11-13-2016, 09:08 PM
Hi there, I just received the latest results of my friend M. Basso, I already knew he's L21+ DF13+, now I know he's DF21+ as well. His ID on YSEARCH is RVXTM.
My friend is the fourth L21+ found in my area. I noticed an individual from La Spezia on L21 project of FTDNA and in 2013 Dr. Boattini found in my area 2 L21s+

It would be interesting to see how he tests when it comes to subclades of DF21, of course if money isn't an issue a BigY test (or equivalent) would be very interesting.

rms2
11-14-2016, 03:26 PM
In YSearch Basso matches a Floyd from Ireland, although it is only 12 markers . . .


But Basso has 44 markers in YSearch, and there is no one close beyond this 12-marker match. I don't think there is any need to pontificate on the low value of 12-marker matches, especially outside one's own surname.

Maybe Basso is really British or Irish, and his surname originated in an expression of surprise at someone's first sip of Bass Ale (Bass! Oh!), or maybe it is an inversion of O'Bass, but then again maybe DF21 isn't limited to the Isles and did not originate there.

Titus Valerius
11-14-2016, 07:30 PM
Hi there, I just received another result from Yseq: my friend is S5488+.
I know that Basso is an ancient surname of my area.

Sealgair
11-14-2016, 07:51 PM
Hi there, I just received another result from Yseq: my friend is S5488+.
I know that Basso is an ancient surname of my area.

Please let your friend know he is welcome to join the https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-DF21/info

Titus Valerius
11-15-2016, 08:09 AM
We thank you Sealgair!

Dubhthach
11-15-2016, 10:11 AM
Hi there, I just received another result from Yseq: my friend is S5488+.
I know that Basso is an ancient surname of my area.

S5488 is quite a big branch (and ancient one) of DF21. See Ytree site for it, showing some of it's currently known branching structure:

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=37&star=false

YFULL have following calculation for it:
formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 4100 ybp

Is your friend doing a bundle test with Yseq? If so hopefully it should narrow him down, even negative results (-) are useful in that regard.

oneillabu
11-15-2016, 06:33 PM
Hi there, I just received another result from Yseq: my friend is S5488+.
I know that Basso is an ancient surname of my area.

Basso was first recorded in Verona in the 13th Century however we also know that S5488 existed in Ireland over four thousand years ago, that is not to say that there may be other non Irish S5488 Bell beaker tribes because I believe that S5488 is over 4500 years old and what is interesting is that there are Bell Beaker finds in Northern Italy however if an S5488 cluster did survive in Italy then it will have to show up with more testing of Italian DNA because one result is not enough, regarding the cluster you mention simply being L21+ does not imply a connection with DF21 / S5488 however maybe a wider Beaker cluster is possible


We have seen this initial excitment before with kit 319942 Latta from Belgium where a Belgae tribal origin was assigned to DF21 based on one result, these experts even dated DF21 as 2200 years old while I simply stuck to dating it based on the number of Genetic Mutations between all of the strands of DF21 focusing specifically on S5488 and I was ridiculed for suggesting that DF21 was well over four thousand years old however this is exactly what transpired. So while this is a very interesting result it does not necessarily mean that we have discovered a continental origin for S5488 because one swallow does not make a summer, I would suggest contacting Floyd through YSearch to see if he is interested in extending his markers and testing for DF21 as the best way forward to either eliminate him or confirm the connection.

Titus Valerius
11-15-2016, 07:20 PM
Hi there, another result from Yseq! Basso is Z16294-

oneillabu
11-15-2016, 10:17 PM
Hi there, another result from Yseq! Basso is Z16294-

Has he tested for BY518

Titus Valerius
11-16-2016, 08:29 AM
Has he tested for BY518
Basso has not yet been tested for BY518

rms2
11-16-2016, 01:04 PM
Basso was first recorded in Verona in the 13th Century however we also know that S5488 existed in Ireland over four thousand years ago, that is not to say that there may be other non Irish S5488 Bell beaker tribes because I believe that S5488 is over 4500 years old . . .


If you are right about the age of S5488, then it is extremely unlikely it originated in Ireland, since the oldest Beaker burials there date to about 2300 BC, that is, unless one wants to argue that S5488 predates Bell Beaker in Ireland.

Titus Valerius
11-16-2016, 04:01 PM
Hi there,
The Basso surname is very common in Northen Italy and I think this surname has several origins, in fact on ysearch there's another Basso from Asiago (Vicenza) E1b1b2a2. In Italy there's a variant of surname Basso: Bassi and on Ysearch there's Mr. Bassi from Mantova (Mantua) G2a3b1

Titus Valerius
11-16-2016, 04:32 PM
I noticed on L21 project another L21 from La Spezia, Mr. Scattini, but he seems very different from Basso.

vettor
11-16-2016, 05:22 PM
Hi there,
The Basso surname is very common in Northen Italy and I think this surname has several origins, in fact on ysearch there's another Basso from Asiago (Vicenza) E1b1b2a2. In Italy there's a variant of surname Basso: Bassi and on Ysearch there's Mr. Bassi from Mantova (Mantua) G2a3b1

The Asiago Basso paternal has been living in Asigo Vicenza from 1757 ....

the La Spezia Basso line would seem to be from Cinque Terre area a small town called Vernazza
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinque_Terre
..................I have stayed there for a few days near Castello Doria

https://www.wikitree.com/photo/jpg/Basso_Name_Study-1


I spent many a night in the wine-bars:beerchug: ...all called Enoteca ( ligurian language ) ..........similar setups to the Venetian wine-bars called Bacaro ( venetian language )

oneillabu
11-16-2016, 06:54 PM
If you are right about the age of S5488, then it is extremely unlikely it originated in Ireland, since the oldest Beaker burials there date to about 2300 BC, that is, unless one wants to argue that S5488 predates Bell Beaker in Ireland.

There are Bell beakers sites all over Ireland, these Rathlin DF21 people did not just travel from the continent on their own build a grave and then fall into it, I superimposed a map of Cist Burial sites throughout Ireland over a map showing of the location of stone circles and there is a definite correlation between them, we really do not know how long DF21 has been in Ireland or whether DF21 is an ancient Isles proto Celtic type that may have been involved in the construction of Stonehenge which has been dated between 2000 and 3000 BC, equally some have dated the construction of Newgrange to this same time period and given that they both fulfil the same function of recording the Solstice period I am firmly of the opinion that they were built by the same people, indeed there are similar constructions to Newgrange in Wales and Orkney in Scotland.

The age of S5488 must be calculated from the very large Genetic distances between its different branches and these branches are overwhelmingly Isles based, if you were to jump on every European result as proof of origin then Sweden would be top of the list however as we see from the results we nearly always get an Isles based match that is their closest relative, even 382256 Johannes Bryngelsson who is the most likely Scandanavian result has a Genetic Distance of 38 to another R-BY12129 Irish ancestor with which places their common ancestor around 2500 years ago which is too short for any kind of an origin theory. The fact is we simply do not know but we must try to piece together what we have to come up with theories that are plausible and not rule anything out till we know more, I am not adverse to a continental origin because we are talking between 4000 to 5000 years old, you will recall that I speculated some time ago on DF21 being associated with the BOII Celtic tribe who are reputed to be connected with the Tuatha De Dannan, maybe an Italian DF21 Cluster will support that theory

miiser
11-16-2016, 09:30 PM
If you are right about the age of S5488, then it is extremely unlikely it originated in Ireland, since the oldest Beaker burials there date to about 2300 BC, that is, unless one wants to argue that S5488 predates Bell Beaker in Ireland.

Your data set is incomplete. Non burial archaeological evidence of Beakers in Ireland predates earliest known Beaker burials in Ireland.

First evidence of Beaker presence is circa 2500 BC. See this thread and link to paper:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8394-The-Changing-Face-of-Neolithic-and-Bronze-Age-Ireland-A-Big-Data-Approach-to-the-Set

See also "The Age of Stonehenge" by Mike Parker Pearson, one of the preeminent active archaeologists in the Isles, which places the earliest convincing evidence of Beaker in England around 2500 BC, and possibly considerably earlier.

oneillabu
11-17-2016, 12:07 AM
Your data set is incomplete. Non burial archaeological evidence of Beakers in Ireland predates earliest known Beaker burials in Ireland.

First evidence of Beaker presence is circa 2500 BC. See this thread and link to paper:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8394-The-Changing-Face-of-Neolithic-and-Bronze-Age-Ireland-A-Big-Data-Approach-to-the-Set

See also "The Age of Stonehenge" by Mike Parker Pearson, one of the preeminent active archaeologists in the Isles, which places the earliest convincing evidence of Beaker in England around 2500 BC, and possibly considerably earlier.

There were also Beaker burials in Megalithic tombs as well which implies a connection and a continuation of an ancient practice, the fact is that the oldest Celtic DNA in Britain is DF21 (Hinxton man) and the oldest in Ireland is the Rathlin DF21 so this implies that pre Roman Celtic Britain contained DF21, now this is either an Irish migration or an ancient DF21 British line, there are simply to many similarities for these to be unconnected, it is also possible if not probable that Celtic DNA left Britain with the Romans because many collaborated with them and adopted Roman ways, like I said there is so much we don't know but we must look to the evidence we have to try and piece it together

Titus Valerius
11-17-2016, 09:00 AM
Hi there,
I have found on web the coat of arms of the Basso family .
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basso_(famiglia)
It's certainly a coincidence, but this coat of arms resembles the Scottish https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stemma_Reale_di_Scozia

Titus Valerius
11-17-2016, 09:10 AM
The Asiago Basso paternal has been living in Asigo Vicenza from 1757 ....

the La Spezia Basso line would seem to be from Cinque Terre area a small town called Vernazza
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinque_Terre
..................I have stayed there for a few days near Castello Doria


https://www.wikitree.com/photo/jpg/Basso_Name_Study-1


I spent many a night in the wine-bars:beerchug: ...all called Enoteca ( ligurian language ) ..........similar setups to the Venetian wine-bars called Bacaro ( venetian language )
Enoteca is Italian not a Ligurian word, this derives from the Greek: Eno=Vino= wine teca=ripostiglio=storeroom

rms2
11-17-2016, 06:26 PM
There are Bell beakers sites all over Ireland, these Rathlin DF21 people did not just travel from the continent on their own build a grave and then fall into it,

They also did not just spring up out of the ground in Ireland either. They had ancestors; Bell Beaker did not originate in Ireland; Bell Beaker came to the Isles from the Continent; and you are the one who said he thinks S5488 is 4500 years old, making it too old to have originated in Ireland, unless it predates Bell Beaker there.

Chronologically, it does not matter how widespread Bell Beaker graves are in Ireland if none of them dates to before 2300 BC and you are claiming S5488 dates to 2500 BC.



I superimposed a map of Cist Burial sites throughout Ireland over a map showing of the location of stone circles and there is a definite correlation between them, we really do not know how long DF21 has been in Ireland or whether DF21 is an ancient Isles proto Celtic type that may have been involved in the construction of Stonehenge which has been dated between 2000 and 3000 BC, equally some have dated the construction of Newgrange to this same time period and given that they both fulfil the same function of recording the Solstice period I am firmly of the opinion that they were built by the same people, indeed there are similar constructions to Newgrange in Wales and Orkney in Scotland.

I think it likely that no kind of P312 predates Bell Beaker anywhere in the Isles. Since the earliest Bell Beaker burials in Britain date to about 2400 BC, and those in Ireland to 2300 BC, it isn't likely S5488 originated there, that is, if you are right about S5488 being 4500 years old.



The age of S5488 must be calculated from the very large Genetic distances between its different branches and these branches are overwhelmingly Isles based, if you were to jump on every European result as proof of origin then Sweden would be top of the list however as we see from the results we nearly always get an Isles based match that is their closest relative, even 382256 Johannes Bryngelsson who is the most likely Scandanavian result has a Genetic Distance of 38 to another R-BY12129 Irish ancestor with which places their common ancestor around 2500 years ago which is too short for any kind of an origin theory. The fact is we simply do not know but we must try to piece together what we have to come up with theories that are plausible and not rule anything out till we know more, I am not adverse to a continental origin because we are talking between 4000 to 5000 years old, you will recall that I speculated some time ago on DF21 being associated with the BOII Celtic tribe who are reputed to be connected with the Tuatha De Dannan, maybe an Italian DF21 Cluster will support that theory

I am not inclined to jump on Sweden or anywhere else for the birthplace of S5488, and, honestly, I don't think I read your speculation about the Boii.

I just think that it's a stretch to think that a single 12-marker match is of much significance either way in Basso's ancestral story.

If you are arguing that S5488 predates Bell Beaker in Ireland, then obviously it could have originated there.

But I don't think it did, and from what I have read of what Dr. Bradley is implying in his hints about Irish prehistory, i.e., that there was a large scale population replacement in the Bronze Age, we may find out fairly soon.

miiser
11-17-2016, 10:06 PM
I think it likely that no kind of P312 predates Bell Beaker anywhere in the Isles. Since the earliest Bell Beaker burials in Britain date to about 2400 BC, and those in Ireland to 2300 BC, it isn't likely S5488 originated there, that is, if you are right about S5488 being 4500 years old.
. . .
If you are arguing that S5488 predates Bell Beaker in Ireland, then obviously it could have originated there.

Wow, this guy is really sticking to his guns, long after the battle has swept past him and moved on to a new front. I can't believe he's still shilling this same tired argument even as the data, and opinion of leading archaeologists, has passed him by while he stands still. I guess he chooses to ignore the contrary data in academic publications that I referenced a few comments ago. I have pointed out these publications to him several times in the past, and he refuses to acknowledge their existence.

If it doesn't support your position, just close your eyes and scream loudly to shut it all out. What you don't know can't hurt you.

oneillabu
11-18-2016, 12:34 AM
They also did not just spring up out of the ground in Ireland either. They had ancestors; Bell Beaker did not originate in Ireland; Bell Beaker came to the Isles from the Continent; and you are the one who said he thinks S5488 is 4500 years old, making it too old to have originated in Ireland, unless it predates Bell Beaker there.

Chronologically, it does not matter how widespread Bell Beaker graves are in Ireland if none of them dates to before 2300 BC and you are claiming S5488 dates to 2500 BC.



I think it likely that no kind of P312 predates Bell Beaker anywhere in the Isles. Since the earliest Bell Beaker burials in Britain date to about 2400 BC, and those in Ireland to 2300 BC, it isn't likely S5488 originated there, that is, if you are right about S5488 being 4500 years old.

Bell Beaker is a type of burial rite that these people performed, how can you place a specific date on this you can only date some existing finds, there are dozens of differant types of Bell beaker burials, some in Cist chambers, some cremated, some with beakers, some without beakers, some in existing Megalithic Tombs, etc, the fact is that skeletons found in a Cist Bell beaker burial chamber in Ireland tested to DF21 and these are over four thousand years old, anyone looking at the DF21 project can clearly see that the bias for all strands of DF21 is to Ireland and Britain, I have genetic distances in excess of 50 markers at 111 for S5488 people alone which means that DF21 is probably in excess of 4500 years old and maybe older.

DF21 is NOT the Bell beaker signature, L21 IS and this spawned all of the various Celtic tribes across the Isles and probably Europe as well, evidence of a specific type of Halstatt Iron age sword was found in BRONZE in Britain which is evidence that an outward migration to Europe from the Isles took place and may turn the whole continental invader theory on its head and this is mentioned in the excellent program called the Celts Blood Iron and Sacrifice which can be watched on You Tube.

Someone built the Irish Newgrange and someone built the British Stonehenge and both fulfil the same function, who do you suggest built these and what was there DNA type if it was not P312 as you suggest, and more importantly WHERE DID THEY GO. It makes much more sense to look for an L21 migration into Britain and Ireland from around 5000 years ago, the oldest Bell Beaker finds in Europe are from the Iberian peninsula and are dated to 2900 BC, also there is evidence of a language similar to Q Celtic found there as well and even an Ogham type stone so maybe there was a separate migration of Bell Beaker to Ireland from this region sometime between 2900 BC and 2300 BC. This is actually remarkably similar to the old Sons of Mil legend who were reputed to have landed in Kerry and as I pointed out before the existing Cist burial chambers are heavily reflected in DF21 hotspot areas and likewise Stone Circles, which is exactly what Stonehenge is.





But I don't think it did, and from what I have read of what Dr. Bradley is implying in his hints about Irish prehistory, i.e., that there was a large scale population replacement in the Bronze Age, we may find out fairly soon.

SO YOU ARE SUGGESTING THAT THE DF21 PEOPLE FOUND ON RATHLIN MADE IT TO THE ISLAND FROM EUROPE BUILT A GRAVE FELL DEAD INTO IT AND THAT THE DF21 PEOPLE OF IRISH DESCENT ARE PART OF A MUCH LATER MIGRATION, WE ARE NOW ENTERING THE TWILIGHT ZONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rms2
11-18-2016, 12:33 PM
Bell Beaker is a type of burial rite that these people performed, how can you place a specific date on this you can only date some existing finds . . .

Well, the oldest Bell Beaker burials in Ireland date to about 2300 BC. Those in Britain are slightly older and date to 2400 BC. Sorry that does not suit you.

I see you must be arguing either that Bell Beaker was in Ireland before its oldest known burials, in which case you are entitled to your opinion, but there is no support for it, or that S5488 predates Bell Beaker in Ireland, in which case the same comments apply.




Someone built the Irish Newgrange . . .

Quite true. Someone built Angkor Wat, too, and the pyramids of Egypt, and the ziggurats of Mesopotamia and on and on.

But Newgrange predates Beaker in Ireland and is a Neolithic passage tomb, undoubtedly built by Neolithic farmers of the type Dr. Bradley says was replaced in the Bronze Age.

Since a replacement evidently occurred, and it was L21 and its subclades that remained afterward, I suspect it was something other than L21 and its subclades that was there before the replacement took place.



SO YOU ARE SUGGESTING THAT THE DF21 PEOPLE FOUND ON RATHLIN MADE IT TO THE ISLAND FROM EUROPE BUILT A GRAVE FELL DEAD INTO IT AND THAT THE DF21 PEOPLE OF IRISH DESCENT ARE PART OF A MUCH LATER MIGRATION, WE ARE NOW ENTERING THE TWILIGHT ZONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not sure where you got the ideas you evidently feel it necessary to shout about. I did not say or imply any such silliness. I think L21 and at least some of its subclades that are old enough, like DF21 (probably), got to the Isles with Bell Beaker beginning somewhere around 2400 BC, perhaps slightly earlier.

I did not say nor would I say anything as patently ridiculous as what you suggested in upper case letters above.

You said you think S5488 was born about 4500 years ago. I merely stated the obvious for you, i.e., that if you are right, then S5488 could not have arisen in Ireland if it is connected with Bell Beaker, since the very earliest Bell Beaker burials there date to 2300 BC and no earlier.

That's pretty straightforward. I'm not sure how it inspired your upper case rant.

rms2
11-18-2016, 12:45 PM
BTW, there is at least one person posting in this thread who is on my ignore list, just in case anyone is wondering why I am not responding to those posts (I can't see them because I have elected not to bother).

oneillabu
11-18-2016, 07:02 PM
Well, the oldest Bell Beaker burials in Ireland date to about 2300 BC. Those in Britain are slightly older and date to 2400 BC. Sorry that does not suit you.

I see you must be arguing either that Bell Beaker was in Ireland before its oldest known burials, in which case you are entitled to your opinion, but there is no support for it, or that S5488 predates Bell Beaker in Ireland, in which case the same comments apply.

We are all entitled to our opinions, lets just see how things play out with more testing of ancient remains, as things stand at the moment DF21 is the oldest known Celtic DNA in both Britain and Ireland however it is incorrect to label DF21 as the most likely source of Beaker DNA because that clearly is L21 and because DF21 is derived from L21 then we have two possible scenarios, the first is that the L21 ancestor of DF21 arrived in Ireland and Britain sometime betweeen 4500 and 5000 years ago which would mean that they were associated with the building of Megalithic structures in parallel to the Beaker burials, the fact that some Beaker burials were carried out in these Megalithic tombs strongly suggests a connection between both and supports this theory. Also the earliest Beaker remains are to be found in the Iberian pennisula dating from 2900 BC according to the Wikpedia article (link below) this article also dates the Beakers in both Ireland and Britain to 2500 BC.

The second is that the L21 Beaker people were completely unconnected to the earlier people and simply arrived from the continent around 2400 BC, I guess this is the theory that you prescribe to, the problem with this is that the Ballnahatty DNA find is from a Female and does not prove anything, as we have seen from the Rathlin finds there was a wide variety of Female DNA types because all three had a differant Female DNA type which is proof that these early people had a large amount of Females in the tribal group from various different locations, The only thing we can be absolutely sure of is Y DNA because it maps the movement of people from a very early time, I do not subscribe to the replacement theory put forward by Bradley, for what it is worth FTDNA have a new feature called Ancient Origins, I have looked at three L21 people including myself and they all show Farmer and Hunter Gatherer both in the mid 40% mark and 12% Metal age invader, you can make your own mind up as the usefulness of this information.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture





I'm not sure where you got the ideas you evidently feel it necessary to shout about. I did not say or imply any such silliness. I think L21 and at least some of its subclades that are old enough, like DF21 (probably), got to the Isles with Bell Beaker beginning somewhere around 2400 BC, perhaps slightly earlier.

I did not say nor would I say anything as patently ridiculous as what you suggested in upper case letters above.



Glad to hear it because last year when the Rathlin results were published that was exactly what was proposed on this forum by a number of individuals, it really is so Silly isn't it.

Titus Valerius
11-18-2016, 07:17 PM
Hi there, another result of Basso from Yseq. He's S7200-

rms2
11-18-2016, 11:26 PM
We are all entitled to our opinions, lets just see how things play out with more testing of ancient remains, as things stand at the moment DF21 is the oldest known Celtic DNA in both Britain and Ireland however it is incorrect to label DF21 as the most likely source of Beaker DNA because that clearly is L21 and because DF21 is derived from L21 then we have two possible scenarios, the first is that the L21 ancestor of DF21 arrived in Ireland and Britain sometime betweeen 4500 and 5000 years ago which would mean that they were associated with the building of Megalithic structures in parallel to the Beaker burials, the fact that some Beaker burials were carried out in these Megalithic tombs strongly suggests a connection between both and supports this theory. Also the earliest Beaker remains are to be found in the Iberian pennisula dating from 2900 BC according to the Wikpedia article (link below) this article also dates the Beakers in both Ireland and Britain to 2500 BC.

Well, we were talking about Ireland mainly, and the oldest Beaker burials there date from 2300 BC, which is about 100 years after the earliest Beaker burials in Britain, so it doesn't seem likely Beaker got to Ireland much earlier than that.

I did not label DF21 as "the most likely source of Beaker DNA", because I don't think it is. There are plenty of other subclades of L21 and some non-L21 clades of P312 that probably came with Beaker, as well.

But I think DF21 is old enough to have originated on the Continent with Bell Beaker and to have arrived in the Isles in the body of some Bell Beaker man (or more than one).

I don't think L21 of any kind had anything to do with megalithic burials in Britain that predate Bell Beaker. Those guys were probably I2a and G2a.



The second is that the L21 Beaker people were completely unconnected to the earlier people and simply arrived from the continent around 2400 BC, I guess this is the theory that you prescribe to, the problem with this is that the Ballnahatty DNA find is from a Female and does not prove anything, as we have seen from the Rathlin finds there was a wide variety of Female DNA types because all three had a differant Female DNA type which is proof that these early people had a large amount of Females in the tribal group from various different locations, The only thing we can be absolutely sure of is Y DNA because it maps the movement of people from a very early time, I do not subscribe to the replacement theory put forward by Bradley, for what it is worth FTDNA have a new feature called Ancient Origins, I have looked at three L21 people including myself and they all show Farmer and Hunter Gatherer both in the mid 40% mark and 12% Metal age invader, you can make your own mind up as the usefulness of this information . . .

You'll have to take that up with Dr. Bradley. He is the one who said there was massive replacement in Ireland beginning in the Bronze Age, and he is the one with ancient Irish samples in his lab. L21 and its subclades remained after the replacement, so evidently they weren't replaced. Something else belonging to Neolithic farmers was.

If you think DF21 descends from the Neolithic farmers who built the megaliths, thus far the evidence is not on your side.

Dubhthach
11-19-2016, 11:55 AM
it's worth remembering that the Rathlin men had Neolithic EEF admixture in their genomes, however if memory serves me right their admixture appeared closer to EEF remains from Germany than they did to the Neolithic EEF female from Down that was sequence.

So this would imply that they had already admixed before arriving in Ireland and than perhaps admixed more (perhaps increasing levels of EEF/WHG over time). I'd be curious actually how ancient remains would compare against FTDNA's calculator in this regard.

rms2
11-19-2016, 01:48 PM
it's worth remembering that the Rathlin men had Neolithic EEF admixture in their genomes, however if memory serves me right their admixture appeared closer to EEF remains from Germany than they did to the Neolithic EEF female from Down that was sequence.

So this would imply that they had already admixed before arriving in Ireland and than perhaps admixed more (perhaps increasing levels of EEF/WHG over time). I'd be curious actually how ancient remains would compare against FTDNA's calculator in this regard.

As I recall, they were pretty close to German Bell Beaker. And of course they had steppe ancestry that the Ballynahatty woman was totally missing.

miiser
11-19-2016, 10:26 PM
As I recall, they were pretty close to German Bell Beaker. And of course they had steppe ancestry that the Ballynahatty woman was totally missing.

My recollection is that the author of the Rathlin paper interpreted the data as being consistent with admixture of an Isles native, and the German Bell Beaker connection was only hypothesized by back seat drivers on Anthrogenica looking for a way to make Rathlin exceptional - that is, non representative of a larger Isles population - in order to salvage the theory of a Continental origin for DF21.

oneillabu
11-19-2016, 10:41 PM
Well, we were talking about Ireland mainly, and the oldest Beaker burials there date from 2300 BC, which is about 100 years after the earliest Beaker burials in Britain, so it doesn't seem likely Beaker got to Ireland much earlier than that.

The Rathlin find is dated to around the period you state however Cist burial chambers are dispersed all over Ireland especially and like I stated before there is a definite correlation with these Cist burials and the Stone Circles in Ireland, while everyone is talking about the bronze age this was simply a continuation of the Copper Age which was originally defined as a transition between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age.

Bell Beaker pottery was found in Ross Island associated with Copper Mining. The Copper Age is known as the Chalcolthic Culture, examples of Chalcolithic cultures in Europe include Vila Nova de São Pedro and Los Millares on the Iberian Peninsula. POTTERY OF THE BEAKER PEOPLE has been found at both Iberian sites, dating to several centuries after copper-working began there.

The Beaker culture appears to have spread copper and bronze technologies in Europe, along with Indo-European languages. As I stated before, the oldest Beaker Sites dating from 2900 BC are to be found in the Iberian Pennisula and this is where the Irish ancestors of DF21 came from, Pre-Bronze Age metalwork, namely copper axe heads, halberds and knife/dagger blades dating from 2500 BC were manufactured in Ross Island in Kerry, these finds have been distributed throughout Ireland and in the West of Britain, Bronze is a mixture of Copper and Tin, the Tin that was used in the manufacture of Bronze was mined in Cornwall, have you noticed how often DF21 crops up in Cornwall with very old Cornish names, this is ancient proof of this connection.


If you think DF21 descends from the Neolithic farmers who built the megaliths, thus far the evidence is not on your side.


The Megalithic Culture began around 4800 BC and finished around 3000 BC and this is when the transition from Megalithic to Bell Beaker began on the Iberian Pennisula hence the use of Megalithic Tombs for some Beaker Burials, it is amazing that these so called academics fail to make this connection, to suggest that Beaker people would use sites from an Alien Culture is ludicrious, this it the equivalent of Muslims burying their dead in a Christian Cemetery, take a look at the map on the following article under the Chalcolithic section which shows the proposed development of the European Megalithic Culture and you will see that I am absolutely correct, you will see Cornwall, Wales, Brittany, Southern Ireland and up the West Coast of Ireland and the IBERIAN PENNISULA, I think people will see that I do have the evidence on my side.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Iberia


You'll have to take that up with Dr. Bradley. He is the one who said there was massive replacement in Ireland beginning in the Bronze Age, and he is the one with ancient Irish samples in his lab.

These are the same people that gave us the famous M222 Niall Fairy Tale, how much follow up research has Trinity done on this momentous announcement, try NONE, it is still being regurgitated every so often as A RECENT STUDY BY TRINITY, even though it is ancient now, no such thing as looking at all these surnames they announced and matching them to the new crop of SNP's and looking at the Genetic Distances involved of looking at the parent DF49, likewise I suspect some other major announcement by the Liberal Bastion that is Trinity that we are all from the Middle East or some such Liberal inspired garbage, I simply have no faith in these people to produce anything meaningful, indeed I am of the opinion that the Rathlin DF21 result would never have been published if Queen's University were not involved in the study, maybe they will prove me wrong however I will not be holding my breath.

rms2
11-19-2016, 11:45 PM
The Rathlin find is dated to around the period you state however Cist burial chambers are dispersed all over Ireland especially and like I stated before there is a definite correlation with these Cist burials and the Stone Circles in Ireland, while everyone is talking about the bronze age this was simply a continuation of the Copper Age which was originally defined as a transition between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age.

Bell Beaker pottery was found in Ross Island associated with Copper Mining. The Copper Age is known as the Chalcolthic Culture, examples of Chalcolithic cultures in Europe include Vila Nova de São Pedro and Los Millares on the Iberian Peninsula. POTTERY OF THE BEAKER PEOPLE has been found at both Iberian sites, dating to several centuries after copper-working began there.

There is no single "Chalcolithic Culture". The Chalcolithic Period is merely another name for the Copper Age.

We are not talking about Iberia. We are talking about Ireland. There Bell Beaker burials date no earlier than 2300 BC.

The Ballynahatty woman (c. 3343–3020 BC) had no steppe ancestry. The Rathlin Island men did, and they were R1b, like the Yamnaya men from the steppe.

Dr. Bradley has said there was a "massive replacement" in Ireland in the Bronze Age. It was R1b-L21 and steppe ancestry that remained after the replacement, so evidently L21 and steppe ancestry replaced Neolithic farmer dna.



The Beaker culture appears to have spread copper and bronze technologies in Europe, along with Indo-European languages. As I stated before, the oldest Beaker Sites dating from 2900 BC are to be found in the Iberian Pennisula and this is where the Irish ancestors of DF21 came from, Pre-Bronze Age metalwork, namely copper axe heads, halberds and knife/dagger blades dating from 2500 BC were manufactured in Ross Island in Kerry, these finds have been distributed throughout Ireland and in the West of Britain, Bronze is a mixture of Copper and Tin, the Tin that was used in the manufacture of Bronze was mined in Cornwall, have you noticed how often DF21 crops up in Cornwall with very old Cornish names, this is ancient proof of this connection.

It's not likely the ancestors of Irish Bell Beaker came from Iberia. Irish Bell Beaker probably came over from Britain, and the earliest Irish Bell Beaker burials date to about 100 years after the British ones. As I said before, the very earliest Irish Beaker burials date to about 2300 BC.


The Megalithic Culture began around 4800 BC and finished around 3000 BC and this is when the transition from Megalithic to Bell Beaker began on the Iberian Pennisula hence the use of Megalithic Tombs for some Beaker Burials, it is amazing that these so called academics fail to make this connection, to suggest that Beaker people would use sites from an Alien Culture is ludicrious, this it the equivalent of Muslims burying their dead in a Christian Cemetery, take a look at the map on the following article under the Chalcolithic section which shows the proposed development of the European Megalithic Culture and you will see that I am absolutely correct, you will see Cornwall, Wales, Brittany, Southern Ireland and up the West Coast of Ireland and the IBERIAN PENNISULA, I think people will see that I do have the evidence on my side.

You are merely noticing the difference between the very earliest Iberian Bell Beaker and later Bell Beaker, which I have pointed out before often enough. I don't want to repeat all that.

It's important to remember that we are talking about the kurgan type of Bell Beaker, the kind that would have been mostly R1b and would have buried its important dead steppe fashion, i.e., in a pit under a round barrow and with weapons and horse bones, etc.

No P312 in Ireland or anywhere else is connected to Neolithic farmers, who were of Near Eastern ancestry and G2a or of European hunter-gatherer ancestry and I2a.



These are the same people that gave us the famous M222 Niall Fairy Tale . . .

I know that upsets you, since you want the Ui Neill to be DF21.



. . .how much follow up research has Trinity done on this momentous announcement, try NONE, it is still being regurgitated every so often as A RECENT STUDY BY TRINITY, even though it is ancient now, no such thing as looking at all these surnames they announced and matching them to the new crop of SNP's and looking at the Genetic Distances involved of looking at the parent DF49, likewise I suspect some other major announcement by the Liberal Bastion that is Trinity that we are all from the Middle East or some such Liberal inspired garbage, I simply have no faith in these people to produce anything meaningful, indeed I am of the opinion that the Rathlin DF21 result would never have been published if Queen's University were not involved in the study, maybe they will prove me wrong however I will not be holding my breath.

Phew!

Well, apparently you know more than Dr. Bradley, but he is the one who has said there was a massive genetic replacement in Ireland in the Bronze Age, and it was L21 and its subclades, steppe dna, and an Indo-European language that remained afterwards.

Maybe you could clarify and state what you mean. I gather you believe DF21 predates Bell Beaker in Ireland and was there by the Neolithic at the least, if not earlier.

rms2
11-20-2016, 12:12 AM
Here is what I think happened. Bell Beaker arrived in Britain around 2400 BC, perhaps a little earlier (but not much), and in Ireland around 2300 BC. Its males were mostly R1b-L21 and whatever subclades of L21 are old enough to have already been in existence. These Beaker people were speaking an early form of Celtic or perhaps Italo-Celtic. They brought with them what was for that time advanced metallurgy and a mounted, pastoral, warlike culture. Somehow, they outbred the Neolithic farmer males already present in the Isles, and there may have been some violent conflict involved, as well. In time, L21 and its subclades became the dominant y-dna signature in the Isles.

Probably no kind of P312 in Britain and Ireland predates Bell Beaker there circa 2400 BC, but Gimbutas did notice some kurgan-type mounds in Ireland at Linkardstown and in Derbyshire in England that date to the mid-4th millennium BC that may represent the early arrival of a kurgan vanguard. It would be interesting to get some y-dna from those.

oneillabu
11-20-2016, 04:46 PM
There is no single "Chalcolithic Culture". The Chalcolithic Period is merely another name for the Copper Age.

Call it Culture call it a Period or Age or whatever, these people mined Copper and made implements from it such as Pre-Bronze Age copper axe heads, halberds and knife/dagger blades dating from 2500 BC and some of these were manufactured in Ross Island in Kerry and this is a FACT, I am providing facts you are providing nothing but opinions.



We are not talking about Iberia. We are talking about Ireland. There Bell Beaker burials date no earlier than 2300 BC. It's not likely the ancestors of Irish Bell Beaker came from Iberia. Irish Bell Beaker probably came over from Britain, and the earliest Irish Bell Beaker burials date to about 100 years after the British ones. As I said before, the very earliest Irish Beaker burials date to about 2300 BC.

But the Copper was mined in Ireland way before this date; you seem to be suggesting that the Neolithic Farmers that you say were replaced by Bell Beaker migration were mining Copper in Ireland around 2500 BC and that the Bell Beaker folk came in 2300 BC and took over from them, exterminating the males in the process, with respect this scenario makes no sense, not alone is it likely that these Beaker people came from Iberia it is almost certain that this is the case and there is proof of this, the Celt Iberian Language became extinct in the second Century BC AND THIS WAS Q CELTIC THE SAME AS IRISH, the only other places that Q Celtic is to be found is Scotland and the Isle of Man and this was introduced by the Irish much later

Actual physical proof of this connection exists in both language and the Ogham Script, the same markings found on Ogham stones in the South of Ireland have been found dating from 500 BC on standing stones in Spain and Portugal, there can be no doubt that the early Megalithic and early Beaker Culture in Iberia existed side by side, probably involving the same Gene Pool of L21



The Ballynahatty woman (c. 3343–3020 BC) had no steppe ancestry. The Rathlin Island men did, and they were R1b, like the Yamnaya men from the steppe.

But this was the Ballynahatty Woman and as I said before you cannot track ancient origins through Female DNA, also the date for this find pre-dates the most likely date for the arrival of L21 from the Iberian Peninsula or Europe which is around 3000 BC and the Beaker Culture did not exist until later than this, whatever DNA the males had before 3000 BC in Ireland is of no concern to me and if Dr Bradley wants to argue his replacement theory he needs to go back to this period around 3000 BC instead of 2300 BC. The age of L21 is at least 5000 years old and maybe older and these L21 people built Stonehenge and Newgrange, Stonehenge is a Stone Circle that was used to track the Solstice, there are numerous Stone Circles in Ireland and their location matches very well with the location of Cist burial Chambers showing that these were part of the same culture, there are dozens of Stone Circles in the South West of Ireland and the earliest of these dates to 3000 BC, exactly on the money for the arrival of L21 people

The Rathlin Steppe Ancestry you speak of was only a small percentage in two of the Rathlin men and was quickly seized upon as proof that the Irish are foreigners by the liberals, every single headline after the study said, the IRISH ARE FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, not one single article mentioned the fact that DF21 was found in this study and is an ancient Irish DNA type still found in a large portion of Irish surnames associated with the Gaelic Chieftains, this does not suit the liberal narrative, Dr Bradley took part in a radio program some years ago that was supposed to look at the Celts however this collection of pseudo intellectual liberals came up with the conclusion that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CELT AND THIS IS SIMPLY A TERM FOR A BIG BEARDY FELLOW




I know that upsets you, since you want the Ui Neill to be DF21.

I only want the truth and proper research, a study carried out in 2004 involving only 17 markers before the discovery of the Celtic L21 SNP is of no use unless follow up research is carried out, I have looked at this thing every way you could think of, I graphed 40 M222 people with variations of the O’Neill surname and the graphs looked like a mountain range, there is NO M222 NIALL, all the surnames in the Trinity study are branching out into different SNP’s proving the lack of a common ancestor from 1600 years ago, however there is proof of a large influx of M222 around the 8th Century, around when the pedigrees were falsified to provide pedigrees for newly established Northern Ui Neill, before the 8th Century it was simply Ui Neill or Southern Ui Neill, I suggest you read Cenal Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms by Brian Lacy if you have an interest in this subject.

rms2
11-21-2016, 12:42 AM
Call it Culture call it a Period or Age or whatever, these people mined Copper and made implements from it such as Pre-Bronze Age copper axe heads, halberds and knife/dagger blades dating from 2500 BC and some of these were manufactured in Ross Island in Kerry and this is a FACT, I am providing facts you are providing nothing but opinions.

Baloney. You are making bald assertions you cannot back up. It is a fact that the very earliest Bell Beaker burials in Ireland date from 2300 BC.

I don't claim to be an expert on the copper manufacturing on Ross Island. You cannot date metal work as accurately as you can date human remains and other carbon-based material.




But the Copper was mined in Ireland way before this date

Says you. Perhaps it was, but the earliest Bell Beaker burials in Ireland date to 2300 BC.



. . . you seem to be suggesting that the Neolithic Farmers that you say were replaced by Bell Beaker migration were mining Copper in Ireland around 2500 BC

I'm not suggesting anything of the kind. I would not bet that we can get as accurate a date for copper mining in Ireland as we can for Bell Beaker burials. Are you claiming S5488 originated in Ireland with copper mining?



and that the Bell Beaker folk came in 2300 BC and took over from them, exterminating the males in the process, with respect this scenario makes no sense,

Once again, Dr. Bradley, the one with all the ancient Irish samples in his lab, is the one who said that there was a massive genetic replacement in Ireland in the Bronze Age. You can doubt him, but to me what he says makes perfect sense.


. . . not alone is it likely that these Beaker people came from Iberia it is almost certain that this is the case and there is proof of this, the Celt Iberian Language became extinct in the second Century BC AND THIS WAS Q CELTIC THE SAME AS IRISH, the only other places that Q Celtic is to be found is Scotland and the Isle of Man and this was introduced by the Irish much later

It is likely the Bell Beaker people who arrived in Ireland around 2300 BC introduced an early form of Celtic or Italo-Celtic, and, since Q-Celtic is the more archaic form, no doubt that is the form they spoke. No need to import Q-Celtic from Iberia.



Actual physical proof of this connection exists in both language and the Ogham Script, the same markings found on Ogham stones in the South of Ireland have been found dating from 500 BC on standing stones in Spain and Portugal, there can be no doubt that the early Megalithic and early Beaker Culture in Iberia existed side by side, probably involving the same Gene Pool of L21

If there are ogham stones in Portugal, 500 BC is a little late to be evidence of much of anything regarding the origin of anything in Ireland. You do realize that, do you not? That is 1800 years after the earliest Bell Beaker burials in Ireland.



But this was the Ballynahatty Woman and as I said before you cannot track ancient origins through Female DNA, also the date for this find pre-dates the most likely date for the arrival of L21 from the Iberian Peninsula or Europe which is around 3000 BC and the Beaker Culture did not exist until later than this, whatever DNA the males had before 3000 BC in Ireland is of no concern to me and if Dr Bradley wants to argue his replacement theory he needs to go back to this period around 3000 BC instead of 2300 BC. The age of L21 is at least 5000 years old and maybe older and these L21 people built Stonehenge and Newgrange, Stonehenge is a Stone Circle that was used to track the Solstice, there are numerous Stone Circles in Ireland and their location matches very well with the location of Cist burial Chambers showing that these were part of the same culture, there are dozens of Stone Circles in the South West of Ireland and the earliest of these dates to 3000 BC, exactly on the money for the arrival of L21 people

You do understand that the Ballynahatty woman had no steppe autosomal dna, right? The Rathlin Island men did.

When you claim that L21 originated about 3000 BC and is responsible for the megaliths in Britain, you're making bald assertions that are completely without support.



The Rathlin Steppe Ancestry you speak of was only a small percentage in two of the Rathlin men and was quickly seized upon as proof that the Irish are foreigners by the liberals

I believe their steppe ancestry was significant and not a small percentage at all. I'm not sure what the heck you mean by "liberals" in this case. I did not know that recognizing the steppe origin of Bell Beaker made one a political liberal.



. . . every single headline after the study said, the IRISH ARE FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, not one single article mentioned the fact that DF21 was found in this study and is an ancient Irish DNA type still found in a large portion of Irish surnames associated with the Gaelic Chieftains, this does not suit the liberal narrative, Dr Bradley took part in a radio program some years ago that was supposed to look at the Celts however this collection of pseudo intellectual liberals came up with the conclusion that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CELT AND THIS IS SIMPLY A TERM FOR A BIG BEARDY FELLOW

Now you have gone and rendered yourself indecipherable. Phew! What is all that stuff?



I only want the truth and proper research, a study carried out in 2004 involving only 17 markers before the discovery of the Celtic L21 SNP is of no use unless follow up research is carried out, I have looked at this thing every way you could think of, I graphed 40 M222 people with variations of the O’Neill surname and the graphs looked like a mountain range, there is NO M222 NIALL, all the surnames in the Trinity study are branching out into different SNP’s proving the lack of a common ancestor from 1600 years ago, however there is proof of a large influx of M222 around the 8th Century, around when the pedigrees were falsified to provide pedigrees for newly established Northern Ui Neill, before the 8th Century it was simply Ui Neill or Southern Ui Neill, I suggest you read Cenal Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms by Brian Lacy if you have an interest in this subject.

You know, I don't care. I know that's a big deal to you.

Titus Valerius
11-25-2016, 08:24 PM
Hi all, I just got the final results of Marco Basso from YSEQ!
He's L1336- ! So now we know he's S5488* ! Do you have any idea? I think his line is isolated from a long time!

Dubhthach
11-26-2016, 04:24 PM
Hi all, I just got the final results of Marco Basso from YSEQ!
He's L1336- ! So now we know he's S5488* ! Do you have any idea? I think his line is isolated from a long time!

It's good possibility, if you look at following at least 64 S54800+ men have done Next Generation sequencing of their Y (BigY or FGC), something like that might be next option if he is indeed negative for all the current known subclades of S5488.
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=37&star=false