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JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-11-2016, 05:09 PM
I've posted my results on a separate thread but would appreciate any guidance or thoughts please.
All my recent known ancestry is in the UK, so no surprise I come out as 83% North West European. What did surprise me a bit was 13% Balkan and particularly 3.2% Kalash.
It's the Kalash which really intrigued me. I had to look them up to remind myself that they are sometimes called the "European or White tribe" of Pakistan. From what I've read they are and always have been quite a small ethnic group with "mysterious" DNA - so how could I possibly be a "match" for them/
In my other post I did speculate on possible links to Macedonia - I also seem to have a match around Libya. Does anyone else with mainly Northern European ancestry have Kalash - is it possibly just a flaw in the analysis?
Any thoughts appreciated. John

12542


https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjSrL37l6HQAhVkCcAKHZwjBTgQFghNMAs&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kuriositas.com%2F2012%2F07%2F the-kalash-white-tribe-of-pakistan.html&usg=AFQjCNEd75J6TOYwS3gJNFhob5AmluSwEg&sig2=p9DgPXtj46VIRA6atYoERw

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-11-2016, 06:46 PM
A possible explanation but why were "Germans" there? John
"Some of the Kalash people claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great's soldiers;[47] and a recent genetic analysis has substantiated this belief. A study by Hellenthal et al. (2014) on the DNA of the Kalash people showed evidence of input from modern day Germany and Austria between 990 and 210 BC, a period that overlaps with that of Alexander the Great."

Tomris
11-15-2016, 11:47 AM
I'm 1.9% Kalash,you're more Kalash than me... :D But many people seem to have Kalash and Finnish on dna.land... interesting...I'm Turkish and according to dna.land 22% northwest european which is really confusing. I don't know how accurate it is.I can't complain since it's free. :D

I don't tend to believe Kalash are descendants of Alexander the Great's soldiers.To me they are mix of natives of that area and northern people. (just a guess haha i'm actually quite ignorant)
I just read it,I'm not sure how true it is but it makes sense to me.
The comparison of the DNA of Kalash people with the DNA of ancient hunter-gatherers and European farmers showed that the Kalash people have greater genetic affinity with paleolithic hunter-gatherers in Siberia and it is likely that they are an ancient tribe of northern Eurasia. - See more at: http://world.greekreporter.com/2015/06/02/new-study-denies-the-greek-origin-of-kalash-tribe-in-pakistan/#sthash.oeYWah0m.dpuf

When I saw this photo,I thought she looks like Russians. :)
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Dubhthach
11-15-2016, 12:04 PM
I've Finnish/NW Russian on basically all calculators (eg. 23andme, AncestryDNa, Familyfinder). In DNA.land it shows up as follows

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/dnaland.png

It could be that what the calculator is catching is partly WHG that peaks in modern Finnish, what's worth pointing out on DNA.Land, is that they are lacking an Irish sample population (we see how Irish sample changes AncestryDNA calculator), as well as any samples from France (aside from French Basque), BeNeLux or even Germany!

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-15-2016, 12:47 PM
I'm 1.9% Kalash,you're more Kalash than me... :D But many people seem to have Kalash and Finnish on dna.land... interesting...I'm Turkish and according to dna.land 22% northwest european which is really confusing. I don't know how accurate it is.I can't complain since it's free. :D

I don't tend to believe Kalash are descendants of Alexander the Great's soldiers.To me they are mix of natives of that area and northern people. (just a guess haha i'm actually quite ignorant)
I just read it,I'm not sure how true it is but it makes sense to me.
The comparison of the DNA of Kalash people with the DNA of ancient hunter-gatherers and European farmers showed that the Kalash people have greater genetic affinity with paleolithic hunter-gatherers in Siberia and it is likely that they are an ancient tribe of northern Eurasia. - See more at: http://world.greekreporter.com/2015/06/02/new-study-denies-the-greek-origin-of-kalash-tribe-in-pakistan/#sthash.oeYWah0m.dpuf

When I saw this photo,I thought she looks like Russians. :)
12586

I've been learning more in the last couple of days. :)
I think you are right that the Kalash probably have ancient Asiatic/Siberian origins, that's what is being suggested at the Genealogy conference. I wouldn't be amazed though if some more direct link to Europeans is eventually discovered. These people have a folk legend about Alexander and sometimes these legends have a basis in fact. :)
I get some odd things come up for a British person on some calculators Like Finnish, Ashkenazi, now Kalash, even Native American, People say you can't rely on some of these things, but they all seem to have something in common to me - potential links to ancient Asiatic origins.
That photo of the young lady is quite striking. :) John

CannabisErectusHibernius
11-19-2016, 01:03 AM
Well, I got 2.1 percent kalash. Both sides of my family come directly from Mayo, Ireland. Im guessing this is just an artifact of bronze age migration? I have been showing 3 to 5 of a south/central asian across a bunch of calculators, so have been investigating this. Dna land also gave me 15 percent slavic, and 80 nw euro, the latter which makes obvious sense.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-19-2016, 06:55 AM
Well, I got 2.1 percent kalash. Both sides of my family come directly from Mayo, Ireland. Im guessing this is just an artifact of bronze age migration? I have been showing 3 to 5 of a south/central asian across a bunch of calculators, so have been investigating this. Dna land also gave me 15 percent slavic, and 80 nw euro, the latter which makes obvious sense.

I think what may be happening is we are seeing "old" influences as you say maybe bronze age or later (not an expert on migrations) , but maybe the "labels" aren't quite right. I seem to get indicators on various calculators which seem to show a link to some Asian/Steppe ancestry, but they are not always labelled in that way. John

CannabisErectusHibernius
11-19-2016, 10:49 PM
I think what may be happening is we are seeing "old" influences as you say maybe bronze age or later (not an expert on migrations) , but maybe the "labels" aren't quite right. I seem to get indicators on various calculators which seem to show a link to some Asian/Steppe ancestry, but they are not always labelled in that way. John

Seems to be, though it is interesting how different some of these calcs come out. Have not seen similar high s asian scores among my fellow insular celts.

CannabisErectusHibernius
11-19-2016, 10:51 PM
I think what may be happening is we are seeing "old" influences as you say maybe bronze age or later (not an expert on migrations) , but maybe the "labels" aren't quite right. I seem to get indicators on various calculators which seem to show a link to some Asian/Steppe ancestry, but they are not always labelled in that way. John

Just out of curiousity John, are you getting any s. Asian or south central asian in eurogenes k13 or k36 ir dodecad v2? Thanks
-george

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-20-2016, 06:51 AM
Just out of curiousity John, are you getting any s. Asian or south central asian in eurogenes k13 or k36 ir dodecad v2? Thanks
-george

I haven't done all those comparisons, but this is what I get on K13. I think with some of these results we may need to think in terms of possible shared ancestral origins which may be "labelled" differently in different calculators, but I'm no expert on this stuff. :) From my known ancestry I think I am mostly "Welsh" with a minority "English" influence. John

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DMXX
11-21-2016, 07:20 AM
The Kalash are an isolated polytheist tribal group in northern Pakistan who speak an Indo-Aryan language. The uniparental data we have confirms they aren't descendants of Alexander the Great's forces (per Firasat et al. 2007, only a single Y-DNA E1b1b1 Pakistani Pashtun man out of hundreds was found to have any genealogical connection with modern Greeks). Same goes for the autosomal data. The Kalash are overwhelmingly similar to their neighbours.

Europeans tend to get "Kalash" component scores due to shared ancestry from the Eurasian steppes; various papers and Eurogenes runs show they're somewhere between 30-60% Neolithic Bronze Age European in ancestry (estimates vary per program and steppe population used). The Kalash often form their own component in admixture programs that seek modal ancestral populations due to their highly drifted status.

Northern Europeans should be scoring more "Kalash" than South Europeans and Turks due to larger Bronze Age steppe-derived ancestry.

ADW_1981
11-21-2016, 01:00 PM
I've posted my results on a separate thread but would appreciate any guidance or thoughts please.
All my recent known ancestry is in the UK, so no surprise I come out as 83% North West European. What did surprise me a bit was 13% Balkan and particularly 3.2% Kalash.
It's the Kalash which really intrigued me. I had to look them up to remind myself that they are sometimes called the "European or White tribe" of Pakistan. From what I've read they are and always have been quite a small ethnic group with "mysterious" DNA - so how could I possibly be a "match" for them/
In my other post I did speculate on possible links to Macedonia - I also seem to have a match around Libya. Does anyone else with mainly Northern European ancestry have Kalash - is it possibly just a flaw in the analysis?
Any thoughts appreciated. John

12542


https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjSrL37l6HQAhVkCcAKHZwjBTgQFghNMAs&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kuriositas.com%2F2012%2F07%2F the-kalash-white-tribe-of-pakistan.html&usg=AFQjCNEd75J6TOYwS3gJNFhob5AmluSwEg&sig2=p9DgPXtj46VIRA6atYoERw

I think getting Balkans is pretty standard, but not sure about the Kalash. I have the former, on one run it was called South-Central European, and the later it turned into Balkan. I take it all with a grain of salt.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-21-2016, 01:21 PM
I think getting Balkans is pretty standard, but not sure about the Kalash. I have the former, on one run it was called South-Central European, and the later it turned into Balkan. I take it all with a grain of salt.

I do take it with a grain of salt, I didn't think for a minute that I actually have Kalash ancestry :). I do have indicators on different tests and calculators which suggest the possibility of some ancient Steppe ancestry, although they carry different labels, taken together, maybe they give a hint of something in relation to shared ancestry. :) John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-21-2016, 06:13 PM
The Kalash are an isolated polytheist tribal group in northern Pakistan who speak an Indo-Aryan language. The uniparental data we have confirms they aren't descendants of Alexander the Great's forces (per Firasat et al. 2007, only a single Y-DNA E1b1b1 Pakistani Pashtun man out of hundreds was found to have any genealogical connection with modern Greeks). Same goes for the autosomal data. The Kalash are overwhelmingly similar to their neighbours.

Europeans tend to get "Kalash" component scores due to shared ancestry from the Eurasian steppes; various papers and Eurogenes runs show they're somewhere between 30-60% Neolithic Bronze Age European in ancestry (estimates vary per program and steppe population used). The Kalash often form their own component in admixture programs that seek modal ancestral populations due to their highly drifted status.

Northern Europeans should be scoring more "Kalash" than South Europeans and Turks due to larger Bronze Age steppe-derived ancestry.

Thank you that's very interesting. I think there was a study a few years ago (Hellenthal at al 2014) which suggested possible Germanic DNA input amongst the Kalash, but I guess that's been disproved?
I have been reading up a bit and some sources suggest that Alexander's army included "Persians" not just Macedonians or Greeks which covers a fairly large geographical area. :)
"Some empires, such as the Persian and Macedonian empires, did make deep inroads into Central Asia by founding cities and gaining control of the trading centres. Alexander the Great's conquests spread Hellenistic civilisation all the way to Alexandria Eschate (Lit. “Alexandria the Furthest”), established in 329 BC in modern Tajikistan. "
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjzoPqksrrQAhWrKMAKHcD4A00QFggbMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FHistor y_of_Central_Asia&usg=AFQjCNGqfCY-XHwumldkvMSCD-uqJVU31w&sig2=TiQ3iqmEQamSxYyOmrU1Sw

"The number of Persian troops in Alexander’s army eventually grew so large that Alexander’s army, like his empire could not be considered Macedonian but had to be viewed as a coalition of Macedonian and Persian forces." M. Greenbaum
I'm just wondering whether that legend could have at least some basis in fact. Wouldn't "drift" change the nature of dna over time? Not questioning your post, just trying to understand how these things work. :) John

DMXX
11-21-2016, 06:51 PM
No worries. Let's get into the nitty-gritty of the possibility of Macedonian Greek or Persian ancestry among the Kalash.

Given the invasion force was male, one would expect Macedonian or Persian genetic incorporation into the ancestors of the modern Kalash to be traced through the paternal line.

Firasat et al. 2007 offers us the most comprehensive view of Kalash Y-DNA to date. (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/fig_tab/5201726f1.html#figure-title) The Kalash are, with some unique genetic drift accounted for, quite comfortably situated between the Burusho and Pakistani Pashtuns in terms of both the subclades and the frequencies observed. The paper itself ruled out any overlap in STRs (within the context of this paper STR analysis is superior to SNPs given the latter are nowhere near our current conceptions of terminal-approaching in 2016), with the exception of one Pakistani Pashtun fellow.

A Persian uniparental contribution is harder to rule out, as modern Persians overlap with South-Central Asians in terms of basic Y-DNA haplogroup subclades. The Kalash are (in order) L1c, H1a, G^, R1a1a, J2(b?), R(2*), R1*, L*. Modern Persians are, generally speaking, J2a, R1a1a, R1b1a2, G, E1b1b, J1(xJ1c) and an assortment of L. As Firasat didn't examine the potential for Persian admixture and left it as an open possibility in the conclusion, it certainly is possible, but that is quite separate from the alleged Greek ancestry of the Kalash, which seems to be based on a misunderstanding of their non-Islamic and polytheist belief system (construed by some in the past as harkening back to Greek practices) and the assumption their commonly light pigmentation has an ancient (i.e. recent) European origin (when it looks quite clear now to be prehistoric European instead).

^ Likely some drifted variant of G2c*, given this subclade is the most common one among Pashtuns from Afghanistan and Pakistan.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-21-2016, 08:20 PM
No worries. Let's get into the nitty-gritty of the possibility of Macedonian Greek or Persian ancestry among the Kalash.

Given the invasion force was male, one would expect Macedonian or Persian genetic incorporation into the ancestors of the modern Kalash to be traced through the paternal line.

Firasat et al. 2007 offers us the most comprehensive view of Kalash Y-DNA to date. (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/fig_tab/5201726f1.html#figure-title) The Kalash are, with some unique genetic drift accounted for, quite comfortably situated between the Burusho and Pakistani Pashtuns in terms of both the subclades and the frequencies observed. The paper itself ruled out any overlap in STRs (within the context of this paper STR analysis is superior to SNPs given the former are nowhere near our current conceptions of terminal-approaching in 2016), with the exception of one Pakistani Pashtun fellow.

A Persian uniparental contribution is harder to rule out, as modern Persians overlap with South-Central Asians in terms of basic Y-DNA haplogroup subclades. The Kalash are (in order) L1c, H1a, G^, R1a1a, J2(b?), R(2*), R1*, L*. Modern Persians are, generally speaking, J2a, R1a1a, R1b1a2, G, E1b1b, J1(xJ1c) and an assortment of L. As Firasat didn't examine the potential for Persian admixture and left it as an open possibility in the conclusion, it certainly is possible, but it that is quite separate from the alleged Greek ancestry of the Kalash, which seems to be based on a misunderstanding of their non-Islamic and polytheist belief system (construed by some in the past as harkening back to Greek practices) and the assumption their commonly light pigmentation has an ancient (i.e. recent) European origin (when it looks quite clear now to be prehistoric European instead).

^ Likely some drifted variant of G2c*, given this subclade is the most common one among Pashtuns from Afghanistan and Pakistan.

An excellent reply. Thank you. John

SwampThing27
06-20-2017, 01:58 PM
Ok that helps explain Kalash results.

Now how about 3% Gujarati in a European individual?

musaev
07-25-2017, 03:32 AM
Maybe this article can explain this situation a bit


gnosticwarrior.com/the-kalash-people.html

Does someone know about Indus Valley-Caucasus-British Isles connection?

Indus Valley and British Isles result is really surprising for me