PDA

View Full Version : Calling experts on North Africa



Jean M
11-12-2016, 06:09 PM
I recently updated my page on Mediterraneans, which has a focus on North Africa. Have I gone wrong anywhere? Missed anything?

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mediterraneans.shtml

Stellaritic
11-16-2016, 06:46 PM
An interesting website.
You may want to change the picture under " Herder" the one that says " rock painting of cattle herders in Tassili, North Africa" because it was made by a modern artist.

Jean M
11-16-2016, 07:07 PM
You may want to change the picture under " Herder" the one that says " rock painting of cattle herders in Tassili, North Africa" because it was made by a modern artist.

Thank you, but are you sure? What is the evidence? I have read claims to that effect, but could not track down proof. So I left it. If it is a fake, I would be happy to replace it with one from the UNESCO WHC gallery of the site: http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/179/gallery/

Jean M
11-17-2016, 02:04 PM
You may want to change the picture under " Herder" the one that says " rock painting of cattle herders in Tassili, North Africa" because it was made by a modern artist.

I have changed the image to be on the safe side.

Stellaritic
11-17-2016, 03:33 PM
I have changed the image to be on the safe side.

I have emailed a French expert regarding the authenticity of the painting and will let you know as soon as he responds to my inquiry.

Jean M
11-24-2016, 09:22 PM
Now I have had to update the page again, to take in the new paper on Chad reported over here in English: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?709-New-DNA-Papers&p=199191&viewfull=1#post199191

and over here in French: http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/index.php?post/2016/11/24/La-diversit%C3%A9-g%C3%A9n%C3%A9tique-des-Tchadiens-r%C3%A9v%C3%A8le-plusieurs-migrations-Eurasiennes-vers-l-Afrique

Cascio
11-27-2016, 06:31 PM
I recently updated my page on Mediterraneans, which has a focus on North Africa. Have I gone wrong anywhere? Missed anything?

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mediterraneans.shtml

You write that the Dabban culture noted for mtdna U6 with its Middle Eastern connections reached no further west than Cyrenaica.
How can the present strong concentration of U6 be explained in parts of Morocco and Algeria (Mozabites etc)?

Jean M
11-27-2016, 09:47 PM
You write that the Dabban culture noted for mtdna U6 with its Middle Eastern connections reached no further west than Cyrenaica.
How can the present strong concentration of U6 be explained in parts of Morocco and Algeria (Mozabites etc)?

If you read on, all is explained. Look under the heading "Refuge from the Cold". The Iberomaurusian culture seems to reflect a movement westwards across North Africa into a refuge from the desert, then mtDNA U6a expanded from the Maghreb around 26,000 years ago. This is guesswork from modern DNA and archaeology, as we have no ancient DNA yet from the Iberomaurusian culture. But it makes sense to me. See the paper that I cite.

palamede
12-02-2016, 11:32 AM
I have emailed a French expert regarding the authenticity of the painting and will let you know as soon as he responds to my inquiry.

It seems me a reproduction by a modern artist to give a refreshed picture of an authentic saharian picture of the past. Contours seem me too marked compared to an original painting (compared to the photo of an authentic one just above) . but this reproduction gives a good idea of the bleeding coulours of the original ones , maybe it is the reason it have been used as representation by UNESCO.

This reminds me the "restorings" of the Cnossos Palace for the method. The opinion are divided about the rightness to use this method. Some tell it is deceptive, others tell this speaks better to the public and gives a better idea of the original style than the faded original paintings.

added: I am not an expert.
a canvas of the subject
http://forums-naturalistes.forums-actifs.com/t1725-rupestre-du-tassili

Stellaritic
12-02-2016, 01:50 PM
It seems me a reproduction by a modern artist to give a refreshed picture of an authentic saharian picture of the past. Contours seem me too marked compared to an original painting (compared to the photo of an authentic one just above) . but this reproduction gives a good idea of the bleeding coulours of the original ones , maybe it is the reason it have been used as representation by UNESCO.

This reminds me the "restorings" of the Cnossos Palace for the method. The opinion are divided about the rightness to use this method. Some tell it is deceptive, others tell this speaks better to the public and gives a better idea of the original style than the faded original paintings.

added: I am not an expert.
a canvas of the subject
http://forums-naturalistes.forums-actifs.com/t1725-rupestre-du-tassili

Although I haven't received a reply yet, I am quite confident about where this may come from.

IMO, the modern depiction was inspired by a description written in a book entitled "l'Algérie des premiers hommes"
This is what the author says about this particular painting :
https://s11.postimg.org/449ys2foz/tassili.jpg

"Le bœuf porteur est fréquemment figuré dans les peintures de cette époque. Il est toujours monté par une femme "élégante" à la coiffure sophistiquée portant de vastes robes à volants et une ample pèlerine" .

Source: l'Algérie des premiers hommes P171-172
Weblink: https://books.google.dz/books?id=0vy8Gb8S0jwC&pg=PA172&dq=tassili+coiffure&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi56Ne0zdXQAhUBbRQKHeNwDZ0Q6AEINjAD#v=on epage&q=tassili%20coiffure&f=true

fridurich
12-05-2016, 05:42 AM
I recently updated my page on Mediterraneans, which has a focus on North Africa. Have I gone wrong anywhere? Missed anything?

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mediterraneans.shtml

Jean, you have some of the most interesting articles. Some of my main interests in history and ancient population movements are in Ireland, Scotland, the rest of the British Isles and much of northwestern, northern, western and central Europe. However, I am also interested in the ancient and medieval history of North Africa, including Egypt, as well as ancient population movements in north Africa.

What are your views on the amount of genetic input from sub-Saharan Africa in southern Europe whether it is autosomal, mitochonrial DNA, or YDNA? Do you think there is any evidence for any significant amount of sub-Saharan DNA in northwestern Europe?

I'm not talking about recent migrants from Sub-Saharan Africa to Europe, but going back say at least as far back as the Almohads coming to Spain in the 12th century, and before that the Almoravids, and before that the Moorish conquest of Spain, and then of course going back as far as the Roman Empire, and even before that.

I don't know what the exact ethnic makeup of the Almoravids and Almohads was, but it seems possible at least some of them could have had some sub-Saharan genes. The same for the Berbers in the original Moorish invasion of Africa. It also seems like there could have been at least some of them with some sub-Saharan ancestry. I have read before that the Sahara desert was green at one time, and it seems like populations could have moved south to north and vice versa. At Gibraltar, northern Africa is only about 9 miles from Spain. How much sub-Saharan DNA the Almohads, Almoravids, and Berbers from the Moorish conquest left in Spain and Portugal, I don't know. I think some authors don't think it was much, but some nonetheless. This is where some DNA testing could really be important.

Going back to the Roman Empire. I believe that parts of North Africa were part of the Roman Empire for about 4 centuries. I don't know how many north Africans wound up in the Roman army and wound up stationed in Europe or how much genetic input they would have had where they were stationed. Looking at people in North Africa today, many of them look like they could have some degree of sub-Saharan ancestry, some just look kind of like Arabs, and others resemble Caucasians to varying degrees, but I don't know what the ethnic mix was at the time of the Roman Empire.

I value your input on this and encourage anyone else who has some reasonable ideas to reply. Thanks for your response Jean.

Jean M
12-05-2016, 11:36 AM
What are your views on the amount of genetic input from sub-Saharan Africa in southern Europe whether it is autosomal, mitochonrial DNA, or YDNA? Do you think there is any evidence for any significant amount of sub-Saharan DNA in northwestern Europe?

I will take your queries in chronological order.

Green Sahara (Mesolithic)
I cover this in the online page that we are discussing in this thread, under "Expansion in the Warm": http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mediterraneans.shtml#Expansion . As I say there:


Luísa Pereira and colleagues calculate that the age of the sub-Saharan subclade L3e5 makes it a candidate for arrival in North Africa from the south at this time, though other L3 lineages probably came north much later - with the Arab slave trade.

Farmers from the Near East (Neolithic)
The Berber and Ancient Egyptian languages are related. Both belong to the Afroasiatic family. They were spoken originally by people probably largely descended from the people who brought farming from the Near East. In other words Berbers were living in North Africa long before it was conquered by Arab-speakers in the early Middle Ages. See pre-Islamic Berber religion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Berber_religion

Ancient Eygpt
As I say in the general introduction of the article


People had moved northwards earlier when the climate permitted, and along the Nile corridor often enough for them to be well-known to the Ancient Egyptians, who indeed were ruled by a Nubian dynasty from 760 BC to 656 BC.

Roman period
The Romans were aware of the existence of Sub-Saharan Africans, whom they called Aethiopes (Ethiopians). Ptolemy refers to the people of the region of Meroe as the first 'real Ethiopians' encountered in 'Ethiopia' as natives by a person travelling up the Nile (Geography, book 1). The Romans did not conquer Ethiopia. They conquered a large part of North Africa. So the modern idea that the African soldiers in the Roman army were "Black" is fanciful. They were recruited in North Africa. Recently there has been a determined effort to describe a Roman military garrison at the fort of Aballava (modern Burgh-by-Sands) on Hadrian’s wall in Cumbria, Britain as "Black". They were the Roman auxiliary unit Numerus Maurorum Aurelianorum, mustered in the Roman province of Mauretania, modern Morocco. It is scarcely likely that they were 100% Sub-Saharan Africans, whatever the trickle northwards along the Atlantic coast or across the Sahara may have been.

However we do have some evidence of at least one person in Roman Britain who seemed to have a bit of Sub-Saharan ancestry, judging by skull shape. She was buried at York with a rich array of grave goods, and her isotopes were compatible with childhood in the Mediterranean. See S. Leach et al., A Lady of York: migration, ethnicity and identity in Roman Britain, Antiquity, vol. 84 (2010), no. 323, pp. 131-45. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/a-lady-of-york-migration-ethnicity-and-identity-in-roman-britain/7F56A0182B98BB25EAC3A62113CFBCC0 The full article is available free from the University of Reading in pdf: just Google on the title.

To be continued in the next post...

Jean M
12-05-2016, 11:46 AM
The Arab conquest

As I say in the article


It was the Arabs who broke through the barrier of the Sahara with their desert-defying camels, and whose ships sped along the coast of East Africa linking north to south. They set up the slave trade that brought more Sub-Saharans northwards than ever before.

As I said in Ancestral Journeys, 1st edition:


A method known as rolloff estimates the date of a population mixture event any time up to 500 generations in the past. One study using this method investigated the history of sub-Saharan African gene flow into Western Eurasia after after the initial dispersal out of Africa. It found that almost all Southern Europeans have inherited 1%–3% African ancestry with an average mixture date of around 55 generations ago. [Moorjani 2011*] That would fit the period of the conquest of much of Iberia by the Umayyad Caliphate. The Arabs began the slave trade which took so many sub-Saharan Africans into servitude far from home.

* Moorjani, P. 2011. The history of African gene flow into southern Europeans, Levantines, and Jews, PLoS Genetics, 7 (4), e1001373: http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1001373

Personally, I would not try to estimate the proportion. I think it creates a false impression of exactitude, when we cannot be so precise. Given that a small percentage (1% or under) of anything may be classed as "noise", it must be pretty tricky to work out what is really meaningful at that low level. I would just say that it seems perfectly reasonable to expect a teeny-weeny bit of Sub-Saharan ancestry in Europe dating to before the modern period.

Callingstar
12-05-2016, 01:49 PM
You write that the Dabban culture noted for mtdna U6 with its Middle Eastern connections reached no further west than Cyrenaica.
How can the present strong concentration of U6 be explained in parts of Morocco and Algeria

In my opinion Iberomaurusians were WHG , most likely from the Villabruna cluster. Some scholars considered Iberomaurusians to have come from Iberia due to similarities with Solutreans while others have claimed an Italian Epigravitian origin , this theory is particularly supported by Denise Ferembachwho said Iberomaurusians came from Italy into Sicily then into Morocco. Other claimed an Near East or Nubian origin. The most likely hypothesis lies in the first two IMO : Sicily and Iberia were accessible by foot from North Africa during the last LGM. Mechta Afalou men were morphologycally very Cromagnon , with robust bodies , tall stature and little dimorphism suggesting an adaptation to very cold climate and mountainous landscape. In anyway Eppigravitian and Solutrean were both descending from the Gravitian of Moldavia and recently we got a Romanian women that was Basal U6* , possibly reflecting a Romania-North African route.

If you ask me , and this is my opinion , I think the Villabruna cluster most widespread in Southern Europe had it roots around Romania and surroundings , and it looks like the Villabruna cluster has a West Asian affinity shared with the Satsurblia of the Caucasus but without the Basal Eurasian input , suggesting a contribution from Anatolia/Caucasus to the Villabruna cluster (maybe reflecting mtDNA H1 and H3 ? you find many H mtdna lineages in the Caucasus). We need more ancient DNA from South Europe and the Mediterranean to understand the distribution of those lienages.

On the other hand the Capsians , the earliest Capsians of central Tunisia , were craniologically a mixture of Mechta Afalou men and Proto-Merditerranean. French archeologist called that type 'proto-Mediterrranean' because it was closer to modern North African cranilogy. Some suggest thos eastern Iberomaurusians had an Near East influence , some other suggest it was a local envolvement from climate changement. However I am putting the latter in question , now that we know the Middle East have known an admixture from a myterious population called Basal Eurasian and that population seem to have intermixed with WHG or ANE-like people to give Natufian , Neolithic Anatolians , CHG , Iranian Neolithic etc. We cannot leave out the possibility that those proto-Mediterranean craniologic aspects of the Capsians were not the results of an admixture envolving Basal-rich Middle Easterners.

vettor
12-05-2016, 04:48 PM
Do you have any knowledge if the indigenous people of North-africa, i.e from Morocco to Libya where basically all Berbers/proto-berbers................some scholars have dated them to 8000BC in this area.

http://www.ancient.eu/Berbers/

The Libu tribes ( Libyans ) appear to be a branch of the Berbers...........they where not in cyrene-libya ( eastern Libya )

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Berber

Megalophias
12-05-2016, 08:17 PM
In my opinion Iberomaurusians were WHG, most likely from the Villabruna cluster. Quite possible IMO; of course they predate our earliest Villabruna samples, even the Villabruna-like admixture in the Red Lady, but we don't have enough South European samples to tell when that ancestry appeared. Modern North Africans obviously have some kind of WHG-like ancestry but it is hard to say what exactly the relationship is. Fortunately we are supposed to be getting aDNA from Taforalt at some point. Mota is marginally closer to WHG than to Natufian in f4 statistics - maybe other Africans as well but the signal is too weak to say - and this might reflect early WHG-like, non-Basal Eurasian North Africans. But then there was settlement by EEF in the Early Neolithic as well, and possible interaction between southern Italy and Tunisia in the Late Mesolithic (pressure-flaking, obsidian from Pantelleria).


Sicily and Iberia were accessible by foot from North Africa during the last LGM. That is not so, but the straits between Sicily and Tunisia were much narrower. Building boats and crossing was surely within the capabilities of people living at the time, if they were sufficiently motivated.

fridurich
12-06-2016, 01:53 AM
Thanks for the very interesting replys Jean. You make some good points. Also, thanks for the links.

Callingstar
12-07-2016, 04:13 PM
Do you have any knowledge if the indigenous people of North-africa, i.e from Morocco to Libya where basically all Berbers/proto-berbers................some scholars have dated them to 8000BC in this area.

http://www.ancient.eu/Berbers/

The Libu tribes ( Libyans ) appear to be a branch of the Berbers...........they where not in cyrene-libya ( eastern Libya )

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Berber
Berbers as an ethno-cultural populaton as we currently know them were probably established in a large part of North Africa by 5000-4000 BC. But they only appear fore sure around 3000 BC with the Libu mentionned by Ancient Egyptians and painted by them as well in many temples.

Those Libus were definietely Berbers , they had tatoos over their bodies (pratcise still very common in the Maghreb) , feathers in their head with particular hair dress , broded dress with items that are very close to those still pratcised. 'Mashwesh" or 'Ma people' from Egyptian hierglyphes seem cognates with ethnonym Amazigh. The Egyptian term 'RBW" (which gave Libou in Greek) is cognate with the Berber tribe Arwaba or Arouaba , that was established in a vast areas in between Morocco and Tunisia.


They were obviously pre-culturally and linguistically Berber in North Africa. The Iberomaurusians culture is thought to have collapsed by 75000 BC and Capsians by 6000 BC. Though the latter possible relationship with what would become the Berbers is more blurred and unestablished by now without ancient DNA. Pottery and Pastoralism appear around 6000 BC in the Green Sahara , and potteries as those found in Tenerife (Canary Islands) were very close to those from the Naqadah culture (Nile Valley) , around 2000 BC there were also Bell Beaker poteries in many coastal Moroccan cavities and Sicilian-Siculo and Phoenician in Tunisia (the latter obviously would correlates with Iron-age Phoenicians).

Callingstar
12-07-2016, 04:13 PM
Quite possible IMO; of course they predate our earliest Villabruna samples, even the Villabruna-like admixture in the Red Lady, but we don't have enough South European samples to tell when that ancestry appeared. Modern North Africans obviously have some kind of WHG-like ancestry but it is hard to say what exactly the relationship is. Fortunately we are supposed to be getting aDNA from Taforalt at some point. Mota is marginally closer to WHG than to Natufian in f4 statistics - maybe other Africans as well but the signal is too weak to say - and this might reflect early WHG-like, non-Basal Eurasian North Africans. But then there was settlement by EEF in the Early Neolithic as well, and possible interaction between southern Italy and Tunisia in the Late Mesolithic (pressure-flaking, obsidian from Pantelleria).

That is not so, but the straits between Sicily and Tunisia were much narrower. Building boats and crossing was surely within the capabilities of people living at the time, if they were sufficiently motivated.

Yeah I agree with what you said :)

I guess we will be fixed with the aDNA of Taforalt , and many more to come.

Jean M
04-02-2017, 10:41 AM
Another little update to the page http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mediterraneans.shtml . Right at the end I have added a bit from the paper 2013 just presented at the SAA 2017 conference. It reads:


The practice of mummification which began in Egypt c. 3500 BC has left a heritage of mummies which can be sampled for DNA. So far results have been limited, but it seems that Ancient Egyptians shared more Near Eastern ancestry than present-day Egyptians, who received additional Sub-Saharan admixture after the Roman period.40

40 = J. Krause et al., Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in Post-Roman periods. Abstract of paper 203 at the Society for American Archaeology Annual Meeting 2017.

Scythoslav
05-09-2021, 02:50 AM
In my opinion Iberomaurusians were WHG , most likely from the Villabruna cluster. Some scholars considered Iberomaurusians to have come from Iberia due to similarities with Solutreans while others have claimed an Italian Epigravitian origin , this theory is particularly supported by Denise Ferembachwho said Iberomaurusians came from Italy into Sicily then into Morocco. Other claimed an Near East or Nubian origin. The most likely hypothesis lies in the first two IMO : Sicily and Iberia were accessible by foot from North Africa during the last LGM. Mechta Afalou men were morphologycally very Cromagnon , with robust bodies , tall stature and little dimorphism suggesting an adaptation to very cold climate and mountainous landscape. In anyway Eppigravitian and Solutrean were both descending from the Gravitian of Moldavia and recently we got a Romanian women that was Basal U6* , possibly reflecting a Romania-North African route.

If you ask me , and this is my opinion , I think the Villabruna cluster most widespread in Southern Europe had it roots around Romania and surroundings , and it looks like the Villabruna cluster has a West Asian affinity shared with the Satsurblia of the Caucasus but without the Basal Eurasian input , suggesting a contribution from Anatolia/Caucasus to the Villabruna cluster (maybe reflecting mtDNA H1 and H3 ? you find many H mtdna lineages in the Caucasus). We need more ancient DNA from South Europe and the Mediterranean to understand the distribution of those lienages.

On the other hand the Capsians , the earliest Capsians of central Tunisia , were craniologically a mixture of Mechta Afalou men and Proto-Merditerranean. French archeologist called that type 'proto-Mediterrranean' because it was closer to modern North African cranilogy. Some suggest thos eastern Iberomaurusians had an Near East influence , some other suggest it was a local envolvement from climate changement. However I am putting the latter in question , now that we know the Middle East have known an admixture from a myterious population called Basal Eurasian and that population seem to have intermixed with WHG or ANE-like people to give Natufian , Neolithic Anatolians , CHG , Iranian Neolithic etc. We cannot leave out the possibility that those proto-Mediterranean craniologic aspects of the Capsians were not the results of an admixture envolving Basal-rich Middle Easterners.



Lol theory turned out to be false. They were not WHG in anyway. But mostly ANA whatever that is.