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View Full Version : Where did U152 originate? and how/where the early branches expand?



Mikewww
05-13-2013, 04:24 PM
U152 is one of the big, old three superclades of P312. Can understanding the distribution patterns of its earliest branches, L2, Z36 and Z56 help us understand U152's early growth?


I think an unexpected finding in early SNP testing was the north italian high densities of U152. Now the question is : which U152 ? and what about the origin of the group taking into account the 3 main branches : L2, Z36, Z56 ?
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2013-05/1368267729

Claxon
05-14-2013, 02:26 AM
A couple of years ago, Doggerland was put forward as a likely place, and by the moderator of another group. The limited evidence of the time did lean to this idea. u 152 around surrounding coastlines of England, Holland, France).
I think MtDNA V originates here... and if not u152, what ?
I think the land sinking was @1200 BC
It would explain some reasoning for a west to east movement.
I don't say this idea of origin is The One... just a discussion starter.
There would be no "Hot Spot" for Doggerland, as it is underwater of course.
I HATE WINDOWS 8 !
Rc

Didier
05-14-2013, 06:29 PM
Hello,

I have a problem with southern Germany peopling at early Hallstatt times. Let's consider the Celtic expansion as a track. I have no problem with a pre-celtic P312 expansion followed by a split in 3 main branches : one branch is NOT Celtic , namely DF27 ; the 2 others would be "briton" (L21) and Celts (U152) from Hallstall and La Tene. Of course, other groups might have been associated and some of these might have been key groups as identifiers. Both L21 and U152 would be Celtic with a fluctuating east - west division. This scheme would favor a P312 split in DF27 first and { L21 + U152} and only later a split in L21 + U152 but I have not heard of any such genetic evidence. If the scheme above is accepted, then the north western maximum of U152 in northern Italy might only be the result of less counter fighting by germanic people (and others) south of the Alps as opposed to north of the Alps.

Webb
05-14-2013, 08:32 PM
Hello,

I have a problem with southern Germany peopling at early Hallstatt times. Let's consider the Celtic expansion as a track. I have no problem with a pre-celtic P312 expansion followed by a split in 3 main branches : one branch is NOT Celtic , namely DF27 ; the 2 others would be "briton" (L21) and Celts (U152) from Hallstall and La Tene. Of course, other groups might have been associated and some of these might have been key groups as identifiers. Both L21 and U152 would be Celtic with a fluctuating east - west division. This scheme would favor a P312 split in DF27 first and { L21 + U152} and only later a split in L21 + U152 but I have not heard of any such genetic evidence. If the scheme above is accepted, then the north western maximum of U152 in northern Italy might only be the result of less counter fighting by germanic people (and others) south of the Alps as opposed to north of the Alps.

How do you know DF27 is not celtic? How do we know U152 is? L21 was in the Isles quite a while before there was ever a Halstatt. If DF27 is Iberian, then you could theorize that DF27 is to the Halstatt Celts what L21 is to the Halstatt Celts, just proto-celts or pre-celts. Some subclades of the same Haplotype could be German while others are Celtic, depending on how they formed relationships with other groups. DF27 is very strong in Iberia, but it also has a showing in the Netherlands and along the south shores of the North Sea, as well as Britain. So you have one SNP such as Z220 that is found in three different places with significant populations, yet three different cultural groups. With U152 being as concentrated in Northern Italy as it is, the three main possibilities are Etruscans, Boii Celts, or Lombards. I have no opinion as to which one I think is responsible for bring U152 to Northern Italy. I would think that the most likely culprit would be the Boii Celts, but sometimes I think it could of also been Lombards, however, I am not sure of U152 distribution in the North Sea area.

R.Rocca
05-15-2013, 12:47 AM
How do you know DF27 is not celtic? How do we know U152 is? L21 was in the Isles quite a while before there was ever a Halstatt. If DF27 is Iberian, then you could theorize that DF27 is to the Halstatt Celts what L21 is to the Halstatt Celts, just proto-celts or pre-celts. Some subclades of the same Haplotype could be German while others are Celtic, depending on how they formed relationships with other groups. DF27 is very strong in Iberia, but it also has a showing in the Netherlands and along the south shores of the North Sea, as well as Britain. So you have one SNP such as Z220 that is found in three different places with significant populations, yet three different cultural groups. With U152 being as concentrated in Northern Italy as it is, the three main possibilities are Etruscans, Boii Celts, or Lombards. I have no opinion as to which one I think is responsible for bring U152 to Northern Italy. I would think that the most likely culprit would be the Boii Celts, but sometimes I think it could of also been Lombards, however, I am not sure of U152 distribution in the North Sea area.

Trying to label these two SNPs with cultures that are thousands of years older than their appearance is not all that useful. I have no doubt that by the time Celts, Germans, or Italics were first written about by the Greeks, they were already well established in most of the places they appear today.

Having said that, U152 was already in Italy during the Bell Beaker period. Its current distribution gives no other explanation. It is way too frequent in places were there was no Celtic presence nor Germanic migrations.

Webb
05-15-2013, 01:30 AM
Trying to label these two SNPs with cultures that are thousands of years older than their appearance is not all that useful. I have no doubt that by the time Celts, Germans, or Italics were first written about by the Greeks, they were already well established in most of the places they appear today.

Having said that, U152 was already in Italy during the Bell Beaker period. Its current distribution gives no other explanation. It is way too frequent in places were there was no Celtic presence nor Germanic migrations.

So do you support a U152 continuum in northern Italy? If U152 was in Northern Italy since beaker times then that would mean that it survived Etruscans, Boii, and Lombards. According to historical sources the Boii essentially wiped out the Etruscans, replacing them. Having said that, the same was always portrayed during the Anglo-Saxon invasions and I think dna evidence is showing that the accounts weren't exactly accurate. You could theorize the same happened in the case of the Etruscans. You're thoughts?

R.Rocca
05-15-2013, 02:43 AM
So do you support a U152 continuum in northern Italy? If U152 was in Northern Italy since beaker times then that would mean that it survived Etruscans, Boii, and Lombards. According to historical sources the Boii essentially wiped out the Etruscans, replacing them. Having said that, the same was always portrayed during the Anglo-Saxon invasions and I think dna evidence is showing that the accounts weren't exactly accurate. You could theorize the same happened in the case of the Etruscans. You're thoughts?

The Boii only displaced the Etruscans in the Po valley and not in Etruria proper. The Etruscans were gradually assimilated into the Roman way of life and speech. The Etruscans themselves displaced the Umbrians in many areas, and that was just the recorded history of the area. As one can imagine, the elite probably changed hands in these areas many, many, times, but there was probably an expansion of different Y-DNA lineages, not a contraction.

Rathna
05-15-2013, 12:08 PM
According to historical sources the Boii essentially wiped out the Etruscans, replacing them.

I have written about this since I wrote on Rootsweb, i.e. till the end of 2007 when I was banned. That the Boii wiped out Etruscans and others from the Po valley is an history ad usum Delphini, i.e Celts or who thinks to be so wherever he is.
Romans fought many wars against them and annihilated them pretty all. The few who remained did the other way around way to Bohemia. As infinite studies have demonstrated also recently, Italy is peopled from many thousands of years by the same population, has had a little introgression from elsewhere, and R-U152 for its distribution is in Italy from many thousands of years. You know that I think and have written many times from before any other place in Europe.
Not only R1b, but also R1a many scholars like Tomatoes, Semargl etc. (see eng.molgen) are realizing that was in Italy probably long before any other place: R-M420, R-Z93*, R-Z93/Z96 etc.
I.e all what I have written in these years.

Didier
05-15-2013, 01:21 PM
Now that more data are accumulating at the SNP level , one of the question is : how are distributed the main U152 branches ? For example : is the L2 branch typical of northern Italy while other branches are east or north of these early L2 ?
Another question that I tried to raise above is : any clue of whether DF27 splits first from [L21 + U152] ? I don't believe in a split in 3 exactly at the same time and I find it surprising that no SNP was found to tell in which order the split occurred. If no such SNP (after checking) it would mean a fairly fast distribution in 3 branches and that may have a meaning.
Celtic Boii are most probably the latest U152 in northern Italy. The question is : from where and from when. U152 might have evolved in situ in northern Italy as suggested by Richard . However, keeping track of the early Celts leads to the (now) Germanic side of the Alps and there are many evidences that Germanic tribes coming from the north pushed these Celts away. What are the SNP U152 branches there ?

razyn
05-15-2013, 02:36 PM
Just making note of the fact that Didier has begun to post here -- and I hope to see you participate in several of our DF27 discussions.

alan
05-15-2013, 02:38 PM
I think there is a legacy of obsession about the La Tene and Hallstatt periods simply because they coincide with the opening of history and the first mention of the Celts. The latter is simply a coincidence of the former and is not significant. Its a legacy of the roots of Celtic studies working back from historical sources really. The importance placed on those cultures largely is a result of relying on historical sources and trying to work back. As far as I can see people like to think that all the important movements just so happened to be at the points when history shines light on them c. 400BC-1000AD but there are around 10000 years of unrecorded times and to expect so much ethnogenesis to just so happend to occur when historians happen to be looking is not logical. The obsession with those cultures is also a result of the typological obsessive rather OCD nature of Germanic scholars of the last century or so who created a ridgid typlogical-chronological system and imperialistic interpretation that in truth doesnt make a lot of sense. If the spread of metalwork types alone represents migration then the same could be applied to the entire copper and bronze age. There is no reason to pick out and highlight Hallstatt and La Tene in particular. This is only done because of early scholars working back from historical sources.

We know that the clades that make up most of western and west-central Europes R1b date to 4000 years or more. So, the obsessing with La Tene and Hallstatt is not really warrented. Hallstatt D for example is really just a phase of wealth centred on the western Alps due to a phase of trading with the area south of the Alps. Its not a culture in the sense of a new ethnicity. It was really just particularly wealthy chiefdoms near the Alps being trend setters for their Celtic neighbours in western Europe.

Same with La Tene. Its just a phase based on the spread of styles that arose among particularly wealthy chiefdoms in the France-Germany border area. It doesnt signify a new people in that area. Basically there is a continuoum of cultures both in terms of time and geography in west central and western Europe and there is no reason to point to the La Tene or Hallstatt phases as particularly special within this zone. I think the Celtic core from Iberia to the Alps and Rhine and the isles was established long before and the rise and fall of Hallstatt, La Tene etc were just the rise and falls of iINTERNAL trends within the Celts. Just read modern French works about the Gauls. You dont see Hubert-style invasions of France from a south German or Alpine core or anything like that. You do not hear much today about invasions and 'arrival of the Celts' even in the Gaulish heartland. French archaeologists have exactly the same issues as British or Iberian archaeologists in that the evidence does not show some sort of Celtic scorched earth 'arrival' horizon. Most modern works see the later Celtic cultures as evolutions largely in-situ from prior earlier cultures in the same area. So I think its pointless looking for an origin point and expansion for the Celts. The IE ancestors probably first established themselves before distinctive languages like Celtic had fully emerged and that emergence was probably a collective thing created by interacting in-situ elites who collectively morphed their dialect towards Celtic.

I think what may have been a unique event - the thrust east and south-east of the celts in the last 4 centuries BC has been treated as typical for the spreading of the Celts but in fact I believe this sort of model only applied when the Celts penetrated beyond their much older block.

As for seeing DF27 as non-IE but L21 and U152 as Celtic, I really cannot see any sense in that at all. They share an immediate P312 ancestor. In fact I cannot believe any L11 would have significantly different linguistic or cultural origins. They are far too close in date. I just think people are being influenced by the final positions of the clades being different after 4 or 4 thousand years and that is making people fall into the common error of back-projection of this deep into time. The phylogeny of L11 is clear that L11, P312, U152, DF27, L21 and perhaps U106 occurred very close to each other in time. Even if they moved rapidly and separated geographically quickly, the early members of these clades would have shared a common GGGG? grandfather. Its important to keep a clear mind between final result after 4000 years and the early stages of these clades when they must have been culturally nearly identical.

alan
05-15-2013, 02:56 PM
Didier-I think that is a very good point. I also have kind of hoped that some SNP might be found between P312 and the three main clade defining SNPs (DF27, U152 and L21) which might separate or link two of them from the other. I still cannot work that out at all. If I had to be though I would say that L21 is more connected to U152. I say that simply because U152 is from closer to the likely source of P312 (and likely remaining P312*) while DF27 seems to be an extreme west founder effect/fission of a single-lineage. Certainly if the current round of variance dating is right then DF27* broke of at a time when the rest was still P312*. Then U152* broke off and finally L21* broke off. The latter pair needed to have emerged from a P312* group and it stands to reason that there was more of that near its origin point.

Didier
05-15-2013, 02:57 PM
[what's below was added before I noticed the Alan posts, above - because of page change ; below is following Razyn post]

Yes, but we need data. We are in a time where many new SNPs were identified and it's hard to get updated. For example, on a different branch of the tree, I recently tried to gather updated information on SNPs from Geno 2.0 at the root of [IJ] , I, I1 and I2. Terry on the I list helped me finding out for I1 (around 72 SNPs, instead of 24 on the present ISOGG tree) ; it's impossible to make fair discussion on such basis and that was my "problem" lately.

On U152, thogh many new SNP results are coming in, the situation is still very unclear to me as to where are distributed the "non L2" branches.

Didier
05-15-2013, 03:06 PM
My idea (hypothesis or theory - as you want) about DF27 non Celtic would be that this group got dispersed in indigenous groups, while L21 and U152 are 2 groups that stayed more or less away from indigenous groups. Hard to establish, I agree, but that's my track. I see DF27 as the direct following of Bell beakers people and forming more a network than a land. As such, DF27 people could have switched to cultures from people in situ. Even the language could have switched to indigenous languages. May be the Basque question can be solved this way : some DF27 branches kept the "old way" of living.

alan
05-15-2013, 10:39 PM
As far as I can see, despite so much progress with new SNPs, there are no reliable distribution maps for most downstream subclades of the big three SNPs with just a couple of exceptions. I dont suppose there will be until the new SNPs are regularly included in academic studies.

Webb
05-16-2013, 12:38 AM
As far as I can see, despite so much progress with new SNPs, there are no reliable distribution maps for most downstream subclades of the big three SNPs with just a couple of exceptions. I dont suppose there will be until the new SNPs are regularly included in academic studies.

I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer, but I am not sure a map of snp's will show us much. Unfortunately, when you scan through the various kits under U152 on the P312 and subclades project, the places of origin for the submitters do not look that different than DF27 and L21, minus Spain for DF27 and Ireland for L21. Otherwise U152's dispersal is remarkably similiar.

Mikewww
05-16-2013, 03:45 AM
On U152, thogh many new SNP results are coming in, the situation is still very unclear to me as to where are distributed the "non L2" branches.

I have anecdotal data from our DNA projects on Z36 and Z56, our two larger (although quite small compared to L2) non-L2 subclades U152.

Given only 64 confirmed Z36+ people, this is a pretty scattered spread: Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands, France, Norway, Czech Rep., Hungary, Spain, Italy, Sweden and Norway as well as in the British Isles

It looks like Germany is the leader with 14, followed by Switzerland with 10.

As far as Z56+ people, I can only find 10. They are all from Germany. [EDIT: I left the "Germany" filter on (duh!) so this is wrong. I'll recount and post on #22]

I think Z192 could be very interesting too, but we don't have much testing on it.

As far as L2 goes, we can't really ignore Germany. Again this is not a scientific sampling, but I can find 63 L2+ from Germany and 41 from Italy.

Not that many people have tested for Z56 so if I use U152+ L2- Z36- as a proxy for U152* the leader is Germany with 9. Italy has two that I can find and then Hungary also has 2 and Poland and Romania also show up.

Perhaps Richard R can derive something out of the studies that would be more representative.

Diana
05-16-2013, 07:40 AM
Hello Mike,

Im certain the U152 project has way more Z56 from Italy... Also of course the Tuscans from the 1K genomes project.

My family is from Italy. Both parents born and raised in Rome. We are and were scattered throughout the Umbria region and Rome. Minus my parents and brothers coming to Canada, Italy is the only home we have ever known. My paternal line is Z56, Z144/Z145/Z146.

Rathna
05-16-2013, 08:37 AM
Hello Mike,

Im certain the U152 project has way more Z56 from Italy... Also of course the Tuscans from the 1K genomes project.

My family is from Italy. Both parents born and raised in Rome. We are and were scattered throughout the Umbria region and Rome. Minus my parents and brothers coming to Canada, Italy is the only home we have ever known. My paternal line is Z56, Z144/Z145/Z146.

It is enough to look at your face: you are Italian from at least 30,000 years, since the U2 Kostenki people migrated to West. Of course mingled with the first humans arrived 45,000 years ago in Apulia.

R.Rocca
05-16-2013, 11:36 AM
Now that more data are accumulating at the SNP level , one of the question is : how are distributed the main U152 branches ? For example : is the L2 branch typical of northern Italy while other branches are east or north of these early L2 ?
Another question that I tried to raise above is : any clue of whether DF27 splits first from [L21 + U152] ? I don't believe in a split in 3 exactly at the same time and I find it surprising that no SNP was found to tell in which order the split occurred. If no such SNP (after checking) it would mean a fairly fast distribution in 3 branches and that may have a meaning.
Celtic Boii are most probably the latest U152 in northern Italy. The question is : from where and from when. U152 might have evolved in situ in northern Italy as suggested by Richard . However, keeping track of the early Celts leads to the (now) Germanic side of the Alps and there are many evidences that Germanic tribes coming from the north pushed these Celts away. What are the SNP U152 branches there ?

@Didier, you are very astute in your observations. The earliest branches of U152 probably expanded somewhere in coastal SE France or NW Italy during the Late Copper Age. From there, there was a secondary expansion that occurred during the Bell Beaker "reflux" period. This expansion probably gave rise to Z36 somewhere in the central Alpine passes between Italy and Switzerland and L2 somewhere in the Eastern Bell Beaker Province (S. Germany, E. Switzerland, Bohemia, Hungary) and so it seems to have a 'Germanic' look to it. As part of the reflux period, NE Italy was heavily influenced by that province too (see Begleitkeramik) and formed the launch point for the Polada Culture. Many of the areas where L2 makes up a large percentage of U152 also shows U106 in important numbers.

Z56 is a little tougher to figure out. Based on some off-modal values, it seems to have occurred after Z36 and L2. Its most important frequency probably lies somewhere between Tuscany and Modena. Z56 could have expanded with the Terramare Culture.

Of course all subsequent expansions from those areas would have scattered the big three subclades (Urnfield, Hallstatt, La Tene, Romans). L2's main subclade (Z367 and its subclade L20) probably expanded with the RSFO Urnfield Culture in France and made its way into the isles with La Tene.

Claxon
05-16-2013, 01:36 PM
Thanks to all above for a most interesting input and discussion.

.

Mikewww
05-16-2013, 03:55 PM
... Im certain the U152 project has way more Z56 from Italy... Also of course the Tuscans from the 1K genomes project...

You're correct. Here are the corrected counts. France ends up being the leader.

7 - Italy

12 - France
10 - Germany
2 - Switzerland
2 - Austria
2 - Spain
1 - Belgium

5 - Ukraine
2 - Poland
1 - Belarus
1 - Latvia
1 - Hungary

6 - England
4 - Ireland
3 - Scotland
1 - Sweden

Diana
05-17-2013, 02:32 AM
I believe Italy is under-sampled. Or am I wrong?

haleaton
05-17-2013, 02:44 AM
You're correct. Here are the corrected counts. France ends up being the leader.


I have not done any quantitative study but it seems to me that France is way under-sampled particularly for FTDNA. I was wondering if that is also true for academic studies. The general structure though does match the current population density. I guess there are some SNP per local SNP-capita maps around.

Diana
05-17-2013, 05:59 PM
It is enough to look at your face: you are Italian from at least 30,000 years, since the U2 Kostenki people migrated to West. Of course mingled with the first humans arrived 45,000 years ago in Apulia.

Grazie mille. My mothers great grandmother came from Spain as did her husband. One was from Castille and the other from Barcelona, I am not sure which one came from where...Surname Vona..So I am not sure what my MtDNA is. I still have many male and female relatives of this line in Rome. My mothers father was a Comito. He or is his father was born in Algeria, (not so good with the history) when one of their fathers was a Cavalier for the French Legion but from what I know originally came from Italy as well and was blonde haired and blue eyed. My mother has auburn hair, hazel eyes and fair skin. Her 8 sisters are a mix of blondes, brunettes and red heads.

My fathers surname is Panara my father insists his family was and has always been in Italy. His father had land in Palestrina and Orvieto. He told me we also have family in Perugia and down in Terni and of course Rome... His mother was a Frisina from Reggio Calabria..

Solothurn
05-18-2013, 08:15 AM
Diana

MTDNA Plus is now only $49 with HVR1+HVR2 as the standard!!

http://www.familytreedna.com/products.aspx

S.


So I am not sure what my MtDNA is.

Rathna
05-18-2013, 12:19 PM
Surname Vona...
Vona is certainly an Italian surname.

Solothurn
05-18-2013, 01:24 PM
http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/VONA



Vona is certainly an Italian surname.

Diana
05-18-2013, 05:37 PM
ORDERED!!!

Thank you! I miss things sometimes! Do these tests take longer then Y tests? Or about the same?


Diana

MTDNA Plus is now only $49 with HVR1+HVR2 as the standard!!

http://www.familytreedna.com/products.aspx

S.

Diana
05-18-2013, 05:39 PM
Really? My mother says they came from Spain. From Spain to Abruzzo then Rome. Maybe they went from Italy then to Spain and then back to Italy?



Vona is certainly an Italian surname.

Diana
05-18-2013, 06:35 PM
I didn't realize how many Vona's are out there!!! I know they had very big families as my grandmother herself had 10 children...Just checked the map for Panara and sadly it seems to be a dying Surname in Italy now...The 6 from Lazio and 9 from Umbria are for certain my direct family members. There are 49 in Abruzzo which is near enough that they could also be relatives...Go figure the highest frequency is Milano where I myself have no direct family..Probably why I have no genetic matches, not enough of us left.

I remember someone mentioning a story about Palestrina (where my grandfather had land) in which all the men were massacred. I think Gio or someone from the old DNA forums told me about it. All that information is lost to me now...



http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/VONA

emmental
05-18-2013, 07:20 PM
@Didier, you are very astute in your observations. The earliest branches of U152 probably expanded somewhere in coastal SE France or NW Italy during the Late Copper Age. From there, there was a secondary expansion that occurred during the Bell Beaker "reflux" period. This expansion probably gave rise to Z36 somewhere in the central Alpine passes between Italy and Switzerland and L2 somewhere in the Eastern Bell Beaker Province (S. Germany, E. Switzerland, Bohemia, Hungary) and so it seems to have a 'Germanic' look to it. As part of the reflux period, NE Italy was heavily influenced by that province too (see Begleitkeramik) and formed the launch point for the Polada Culture. Many of the areas where L2 makes up a large percentage of U152 also shows U106 in important numbers.

Z56 is a little tougher to figure out. Based on some off-modal values, it seems to have occurred after Z36 and L2. Its most important frequency probably lies somewhere between Tuscany and Modena. Z56 could have expanded with the Terramare Culture.

Of course all subsequent expansions from those areas would have scattered the big three subclades (Urnfield, Hallstatt, La Tene, Romans). L2's main subclade (Z367 and its subclade L20) probably expanded with the RSFO Urnfield Culture in France and made its way into the isles with La Tene.

Rich,

From what you are saying, it seems that maybe the mouth of the Rhone may be a good site from which U152 spread and the Valais and/or Vaud (the Upper Rhone) would be a good site for the spread of Z36. Some hotspots for Z36 seem to be the Piedmont and Aosta in Italy; the Bernese Oberland and Mittelland; and the Alsace of France/(Germany).

GailT
07-04-2013, 06:17 AM
Another question that I tried to raise above is : any clue of whether DF27 splits first from [L21 + U152] ?

Do you know if there are DF27 in the current round of Full Y testing? The test results might answer this question.

Webb
07-04-2013, 10:46 AM
Do you know if there are DF27 in the current round of Full Y testing? The test results might answer this question.

There was a Z220* that tested full genomes and a DF27+, Z196- who tested as well.

MitchellSince1893
06-14-2015, 03:12 AM
Thought this would be an appropriate thread to dig up based on the recent findings of Allentoft et al, 2015.

U152 was found in one of the samples from the Bell Beaker Culture Osterhofen-Altenmarkt cemetery in Bavaria; near the Danube River in an area close to where Germany, Austria, and The Czech Republic meet.

4838
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Altenmarkt,+94486+Osterhofen,+Germany/@48.6924044,13.0162474,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x477506663d222171:0x9fe52 ab70589c424

This sample hasn't been carbon dated yet but it's age based on the Bell Beaker artifacts is probably around 2400BC +/-200 years.


Based on the location and age it's tempting for me to think either:

1. This sample represents the recent arrival of U152 from the East, moving up the Danube River from Austria, where it recently formed.

Or

2. U152 formed in this area; i.e. it's homeland is in eastern Bavaria.


However, A M269 sample was found in Kromsdorf, Germany (175 miles North Northwest of Osterhofen-Altenmarkt) dated to approximately 2600 BC. So this potentially throws a wrench into the above scenario.

Another possibility is that U152 formed somewhere between Kromsdorf and Osterhofen in Southeastern Germany.

VinceT
06-14-2015, 05:32 AM
Thought this would be an appropriate thread to dig up based on the recent findings of Allentoft et al, 2015.

U152 was found in one of the samples from the Bell Beaker Culture Osterhofen-Altenmarkt cemetery in Bavaria; near the Danube River in an area close to where Germany, Austria, and The Czech Republic meet.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4838&stc=1
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Altenmarkt,+94486+Osterhofen,+Germany/@48.6924044,13.0162474,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x477506663d222171:0x9fe52 ab70589c424

This sample hasn't been carbon dated yet but it's age based on the Bell Beaker artifacts is probably around 2400BC +/-200 years.


Based on the location and age it's tempting for me to think either:

1. This sample represents the recent arrival of U152 from the East, moving up the Danube River from Austria, where it recently formed.

Or

2. U152 formed in this area; i.e. it's homeland is in eastern Bavaria.


However, A M269 sample was found in Kromsdorf, Germany (175 miles North Northwest of Osterhofen-Altenmarkt) dated to approximately 2600 BC. So this potentially throws a wrench into the above scenario.

Another possibility is that U152 formed somewhere between Kromsdorf and Osterhofen in Southeastern Germany.

Not to throw a wrench in this discovery, but there is the remote potential of modern-day contamination. There is only a single lonely 43 bp read for this particular U152+ call. Mind you, the majority of calls for the Allentoft RISE samples are only based on scattered single short-read fragments.

VinceT
06-14-2015, 07:13 AM
I just noticed that the U152+ (RISE563) is also showing P312+ in addition to being P310+ and CTS7650+ (equivalent), with similar single reads, so at least it's ancestral YSNP chain is consistent with expectations. But if the contamination possibility could be absolutely refuted, this is stunningly phenomenal for a sample that may be around 4400 years old, if it is that as well.

However, my burning question is - where the Sam Hill was U106 during this time? [OT for this thread! ;) ]

razyn
06-14-2015, 04:58 PM
I'm going to quote Didier (from a couple of years ago, but at least on this thread) as a way of "tagging" him, a simpler process that one can use e.g. on Facebook.



Another question that I tried to raise above is : any clue of whether DF27 splits first from [L21 + U152] ? I don't believe in a split in 3 exactly at the same time and I find it surprising that no SNP was found to tell in which order the split occurred.

Such a SNP has, in fact, been found -- last October, by Alex Williamson. He calls it ZZ11_1, and it preceded (was the ancestor of) both DF27 and U152, but not L21. What that has to do with the people later called Celts (in Didier's original context), I don't presume to say. But accepting this ca. 4400 YBP Bavarian sample, RISE563, as U152+ will also have implications for your brother clade, DF27 -- whether we want to call them Celts or not -- so I have a stake in your deliberations.

Pretty current discussion of RISE563 is here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4640-Population-genomics-of-Bronze-Age-Eurasia-%28Allentoft-et-al-2015%29&p=88968&viewfull=1#post88968

Earlier discussion of ZZ11_1 in which lgmayka disagreed with me (or vice versa), and which VinceT passed over w/o comment, is here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4064-YFull-s-New-Rate-Constant-for-Y-Chromosome-SNPs-based-on-Full-Sequence-Data&p=79456&viewfull=1#post79456

I'm not trying to belabor that, apart from getting it into the thread about where U152 originated. U152's pedigree includes an upstream SNP (below P312) that is also the ancestor of DF27. The origin of U152 doesn't necessarily have any proven proximity to the burial site of the oldest bearer of it yet found -- although he is in a pretty good place, given its later distribution. [The cautionary analogy is that if we successfully analyzed the remains of the Amesbury Archer, his YDNA lineage would not now be thought to originate in the Amesbury area. Clearly, some of the guys in high-status ancient burials were long-distance travelers.]

But it does have to do with an upstream mutation, shared by the first Mr. DF27 and all his descendants; that whole side of the P312 clan descends from one man, who was there when it happened. Whether "there" was Bavaria, or someplace else, it was on the P312 route (from Yamnaya country? Middle Dniepr? Lower Danube?) to Bavaria. So, that narrows the search area to just a couple thousand miles; and the aDNA narrows the time frame to a few hundred years. Seems like good progress, to me.

Cascio
06-14-2015, 05:07 PM
I didn't realize how many Vona's are out there!!! I know they had very big families as my grandmother herself had 10 children...Just checked the map for Panara and sadly it seems to be a dying Surname in Italy now...The 6 from Lazio and 9 from Umbria are for certain my direct family members. There are 49 in Abruzzo which is near enough that they could also be relatives...Go figure the highest frequency is Milano where I myself have no direct family..Probably why I have no genetic matches, not enough of us left.

I remember someone mentioning a story about Palestrina (where my grandfather had land) in which all the men were massacred. I think Gio or someone from the old DNA forums told me about it. All that information is lost to me now...

The Vona families in Milan will be descendants of the Abruzzo and South Italian migrants to Milan, and northern Italy generally, in search of jobs in the 1950s and 1960s.

MitchellSince1893
06-15-2015, 02:43 AM
The "formed" and "The Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) ages for U152 on Yfull's Ytree are currently both 4600 years before present. If RISE563 is indeed U152, it may not be too far removed from the original U152 individual in both time and geography.

Assuming RISE563 was 200 years after the first U152 individual, one may expect him to be relatively close to where U152 formed.

This image shows 100 and 200 mile rings from Osterhofen.

4862

We may never know but I imagine the original U152 would have been born somewhere within the 200 mile outer ring.

razyn
06-15-2015, 03:00 AM
Assuming RISE563 was 200 years after the first U152 individual, one may expect him to be relatively close to where U152 formed.
4862

One might expect him to have been born relatively close to when U152 formed. If that was in, say, northeastern Armenia, it's not even relatively close to "where." These people were not moving 1/2 mile a year, or whatever the archaeological rate is now for tillers of the soil. Whether his place of origin and his place of burial are anywhere near each other, we don't know (from the Allentoft et al paper) -- this was not one of those forensic dentistry studies, popular in the UK. It was better, but had different goals.

Il Papà
06-15-2015, 03:27 AM
Not to throw a wrench in this discovery, but there is the remote potential of modern-day contamination. There is only a single lonely 43 bp read for this particular U152+ call. Mind you, the majority of calls for the Allentoft RISE samples are only based on scattered single short-read fragments.

Since some key SNPS like U152,L2 or Z36 are not readable or of low confidence for this bell beaker guy.

Can't we just look for example at all the downstreams of U152, not those necessarily on the isogg tree but thoses from different FULLY and BIGY U152+ sample. Maybe we will found reliable SNPS that will link this bell beaker U152 guy to a guy from the present, both sharing some of the same Private SNPS and it will also tell us what are his upstream( Z36, L2 ?) by the same occasion.

MitchellSince1893
06-15-2015, 03:30 AM
One might expect him to have been born relatively close to when U152 formed. If that was in, say, northeastern Armenia, it's not even relatively close to "where." These people were not moving 1/2 mile a year, or whatever the archaeological rate is now for tillers of the soil. Whether his place of origin and his place of burial are anywhere near each other, we don't know (from the Allentoft et al paper) -- this was not one of those forensic dentistry studies, popular in the UK. It was better, but had different goals.

I guess the question is what is a good approximation of their movement per year?

After 100 years the typical British Colonist on the frontier in North America hadn't moved more than ~200 miles inland from the Atlantic Coast. Yes there were explorers that went thousands of miles inland using the major rivers but they were the exception.

Using a recent European model with historic documentation, it took the Roma people (mostly not a farming community) approximately 500 years to go from Greece and Turkey to England...which works out to ~2.75 miles per year...and that's with the help of road networks that probably weren't available in the 3rd Millennium BC.

Of course the 13th Century Mongol invasion moved across Eurasia into Europe at a rapid rate, but it didn't leave much of a genetic impact on Europe. Apparently neither did the rapid advance of the Vandal and Visigothic of invasions of Iberia.

Sure RISE563 could have gone tens to hundreds of miles per year but is that statistically what the average was back then? Based on the early American colonist and Roma peoples movement rates; I'm thinking 1 to 3 miles/year seems reasonable for the majority of population movements in Eastern and Central Europe circa 2500 BC.

But I'm open to being educated on the subject.

Motzart
06-15-2015, 04:12 AM
The "formed" and "The Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) ages for U152 on Yfull's Ytree are currently both 4600 years before present. If RISE563 is indeed U152, it may not be too far removed from the original U152 individual in both time and geography.

Assuming RISE563 was 200 years after the first U152 individual, one may expect him to be relatively close to where U152 formed.

This image shows 100 and 200 mile rings from Osterhofen.

4862

We may never know but I imagine the original U152 would have been born somewhere within the 200 mile outer ring.

I disagree with that, Bashkirs have a high percentage of U152 (71% according to one sampling) likely it originated on the Steppe and was brought to Europe via Beaker/Yamnaya.

MitchellSince1893
06-15-2015, 04:52 AM
I disagree with that, Bashkirs have a high percentage of U152 (71% according to one sampling) likely it originated on the Steppe and was brought to Europe via Beaker/Yamnaya.

There seems to be some debate as to the source of U152 in the Bashkirs...some saying it was due to a recent migration http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26878-Bashkirs-What-Subclades-of-R1b-Were-They

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2013/05/italan-complex-ancestry.html

VinceT
06-15-2015, 05:00 AM
As we recently learned from the Egtvedt Girl study (here (http://humanities.ku.dk/news/2015/the_bronze_age_egtved_girl_was_not_danish/)), mobility during the Bronze Age was much more advanced than you might typically expect, and alludes to a 500 mile trip (from the Black Forest in southern Germany to the Jutland Peninsula) taking only a few months.

mafe
06-15-2015, 08:38 AM
I wonder if there are clues in the fact that there are many subclades immediately downstream of U152, we now have eight subclades (immediately downstream), and this number could even grow! Is this a sign of men being on the move impregnating a relatively large number of different women in different area's? Or is it a sign of men living in a relatively safe community where they were having large families with only one wife of a couple of wifes?

Edit: U152 currently has nine subclades that I know of, not eight

lgmayka
06-15-2015, 01:38 PM
I wonder if there are clues in the fact that there are many subclades immediately downstream of U152, we now have eight subclades (immediately downstream), and this number could even grow! Is this a sign of men being on the move impregnating a relatively large number of different women in different area's?
IMHO, large fan-out (a large number of subclades or singleton children) definitely indicates a major (even if perhaps brief) demographic expansion, usually accompanied by geographical expansion as well.

razyn
06-15-2015, 07:37 PM
mobility during the Bronze Age was much more advanced than you might typically expect

Besides the cautionary tale of the Amesbury Archer that I already mentioned above (post #38), the isotopic sampling of teeth from numerous Bronze Age (and a few Iron Age) burials in one Isle of Thanet cemetery revealed that
In essence, in all but the Early Iron Age, the measured population was dominated by migrants, some of whom had moved between two locations only to be buried in a third. Celtic from the West 2, p.168.

That was of course a sort of "port of entry" situation, where the population might be expected to be unusually transient or well-traveled. But Bronze Age males buried with expensive goods might also have expectations along those lines. They didn't get to be Mighty Warriors by hanging around the potato patch. Cowboys... just maybe.

R.Rocca
06-15-2015, 07:45 PM
Since some key SNPS like U152,L2 or Z36 are not readable or of low confidence for this bell beaker guy.

Can't we just look for example at all the downstreams of U152, not those necessarily on the isogg tree but thoses from different FULLY and BIGY U152+ sample. Maybe we will found reliable SNPS that will link this bell beaker U152 guy to a guy from the present, both sharing some of the same Private SNPS and it will also tell us what are his upstream( Z36, L2 ?) by the same occasion.

Yes, I am doing that, but it is very tedious.

R.Rocca
06-17-2015, 01:30 PM
So far, it looks like RISE563 cannot be classified as anything but U152+. There are many positions that have no data, but where they do exist, they do not match any known SNPs below U152. Of interest however, it may be that RISE563 "may" be related to RISE564, which is the other Bell Beaker sample from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Bavaria. RISE564 is at least R-L51, with no reads on L11, P312, U152 etc. RISE563 and RISE564 share these SNPs with each other: 7695277(C>T) and 8539862(G>A), but not with any other U152 I have access to and negative in a least one other RISE sample. The caution is that these may be low quality false positives, alignment errors, etc. So, nothing conclusive, but just something to look into a little deeper for those that are looking into BAM files.

And to add something more specific to the title of the thread...for those that thought that U152 was purely a sign of a Roman expansion, they were wrong.

mafe
06-17-2015, 03:06 PM
So far, it looks like RISE563 cannot be classified as anything but U152+. There are many positions that have no data, but where they do exist, they do not match any known SNPs below U152. Of interest however, it may be that RISE563 "may" be related to RISE564, which is the other Bell Beaker sample from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Bavaria. RISE564 is at least R-L51, with no reads on L11, P312, U152 etc. RISE563 and RISE564 share these SNPs with each other: 7695277(C>T) and 8539862(G>A), but not in any other U152 I have access to and negative in a least one other RISE sample. The caution is that these may be low quality false positives, alignment errors, etc. So, nothing conclusive, but just something to look into a little deeper for those that are looking into BAM files.

And to add something more specific to the title of the thread...for those that thought that U152 was purely a sign of a Roman expansion, they were wrong.

Richard, is this because of low quality of the sample or because of the low number of reads / coverage?

R.Rocca
06-17-2015, 03:28 PM
Richard, is this because of low quality of the sample or because of the low number of reads / coverage?

The latter. Most positions have zero or one read.

mafe
06-17-2015, 03:37 PM
The latter. Most positions have zero or one read.

That's a shame :( It would be great if there was a way to do a better sequencing-test with additional radiocarbon dating and isotope analysis.

razyn
06-17-2015, 04:01 PM
That's a shame :( It would be great if there was a way to do a better sequencing-test with additional radiocarbon dating and isotope analysis.

It's almost certainly caused by decay of the sample, not a poor quality (low-coverage) test. Getting this much nuclear DNA info out of a guy who died 4400 years ago is already pretty amazing. They can't use PCR to amplify something that's no longer present; if it's gone, it's gone. If they are working from teeth, he may have had several more good teeth, so one might yet hope for resampling, etc. But I doubt if that's a very high fiscal priority.

MitchellSince1893
06-17-2015, 08:19 PM
So far, it looks like RISE563 cannot be classified as anything but U152+. There are many positions that have no data, but where they do exist, they do not match any known SNPs below U152. Of interest however, it may be that RISE563 "may" be related to RISE564, which is the other Bell Beaker sample from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Bavaria. RISE564 is at least R-L51, with no reads on L11, P312, U152 etc. RISE563 and RISE564 share these SNPs with each other: 7695277(C>T) and 8539862(G>A), but not in any other U152 I have access to and negative in a least one other RISE sample. The caution is that these may be low quality false positives, alignment errors, etc. So, nothing conclusive, but just something to look into a little deeper for those that are looking into BAM files.

And to add something more specific to the title of the thread...for those that thought that U152 was purely a sign of a Roman expansion, they were wrong.

I checked Yfull's database and all U152 members had the reference values for 7695277 and 8539862 i.e. none of them had the same mutations as RISE563 and RISE564.

emmental
06-18-2015, 02:01 AM
Looking at the new info on RISE563 from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt got me to thinking ...

Passau, where the Danube and Inn join, is just east of Osterhofen-Altenmarkt. If U152 was born along the Danube, around or east of Passau, perhaps the east (L2)/ west (Z36) split seen in Northern Italy, and to some extent in Switzerland, could be explained. The Z36 tribe (in general) may have followed the Danube into the Black Forest and from there spread out into the Alsace, the Swiss Mittleland, along the Nekar and Rhine, and from there eventually into Northwestern Italy with the Cisalpine Gauls. A part of the L2 tribe may have followed the Inn into the Tyrol and eventually into Northeastern Italy.

R.Rocca
06-18-2015, 02:44 AM
Looking at the new info on RISE563 from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt got me to thinking ...

Passau, where the Danube and Inn join, is just east of Osterhofen-Altenmarkt. If U152 was born along the Danube, around or east of Passau, perhaps the east (L2)/ west (Z36) split seen in Northern Italy, and to some extent in Switzerland, could be explained. The Z36 tribe (in general) may have followed the Danube into the Black Forest and from there spread out into the Alsace, the Swiss Mittleland, along the Nekar and Rhine, and from there eventually into Northwestern Italy with the Cisalpine Gauls. A part of the L2 tribe may have followed the Inn into the Tyrol and eventually into Northeastern Italy.

I was looking at possible links between Northern Italy and the Osterhofen-Altenmarkt site and found this map that shows the distribution Bell Beaker antler pendants...

http://r1b.org/imgs/Bell_Beaker_Pendants_Map

CelticGerman
06-18-2015, 04:31 AM
Grazie mille. My mothers great grandmother came from Spain as did her husband. One was from Castille and the other from Barcelona, I am not sure which one came from where...Surname Vona..So I am not sure what my MtDNA is. I still have many male and female relatives of this line in Rome. My mothers father was a Comito. He or is his father was born in Algeria, (not so good with the history) when one of their fathers was a Cavalier for the French Legion but from what I know originally came from Italy as well and was blonde haired and blue eyed. My mother has auburn hair, hazel eyes and fair skin. Her 8 sisters are a mix of blondes, brunettes and red heads.

My fathers surname is Panara my father insists his family was and has always been in Italy. His father had land in Palestrina and Orvieto. He told me we also have family in Perugia and down in Terni and of course Rome... His mother was a Frisina from Reggio Calabria..

You can find surnames Vona and Panara here: http://worldnames.publicprofiler.org/

vettor
06-18-2015, 07:27 AM
You can find surnames Vona and Panara here: http://worldnames.publicprofiler.org/

or italian site

La distribuzione geografica del cognome VONA in Italia .....675 families
309 Lazio
86 Calabria
71 Sicilia
56 Piemonte
46 Campania
38 Lombardia
other regions far less

Antica famiglia siciliana, detta Vona o Di Vona, con residenza in Palermo, propagatasi, nel corso dei secoli, in diverse regioni d'Italia. L'origine di tal cognominizzazione, al dir di illustri genealogisti, andrebbe ricercata nel nome medioevale "Vonus, Vona", appartenuto, probabilmente, ad un, oggi ignoto, capostipite. Tal casato, il quale fu fregiato del titolo baronale in Palermo, nel 1600, inoltre, in ogni tempo, sempre, si distinse per gli illustri personaggi, a cui ...continua
Basically Vona is Sicilian ( Palermo) from circa 1600 ..............it could be spanish


Panara has 113 families

43 Lombardia
41 Abruzzo
9 Umbria
6 Lazio

MitchellSince1893
06-18-2015, 11:28 AM
For what it's worth I made a plot of the geographic midpoint of U152 by just plotting samples representing the outer edge of known birth locations of U152 samples in Eurasia.

This map is useful only if U152 originally spread in all directions from it's origin: The midpoit is Hradec Králové, Czech Republic.
4942

As pointed out earlier U152 could have very well had an origin in Ukraine or further East and primarily spread westward.

mafe
06-18-2015, 02:45 PM
For what it's worth I made a plot of the geographic midpoint of U152 by just plotting samples representing the outer edge of known birth locations of U152 samples in Eurasia.

This map is useful only if U152 originally spread in all directions from it's origin: The midpoit is Hradec Králové, Czech Republic.
4942

As pointed out earlier U152 could have very well had an origin in Ukraine or further East and primarily spread westward.

Great idea! If you plot the samples per U152 subclade and find the midpoint of each subclade, you can also plot the midpoint of all subclade midpoints.

MitchellSince1893
06-18-2015, 08:21 PM
I've done that in a different thread for Z49...but I can expand it to those directly under U152.

MitchellSince1893
06-18-2015, 08:49 PM
The distribution pattern of L2 is quite similar to U152. Midpoint is Heřmaničky, Czech Republic

4945

MitchellSince1893
06-18-2015, 08:59 PM
Midpoint for Z36 comes out near Heidelberg, Germany.

4946

MitchellSince1893
06-18-2015, 09:18 PM
Z56 midpoint is near Buchen (Odenwald), Germany

4947

MitchellSince1893
06-18-2015, 09:26 PM
PF6658, Z193 midpoint is near Pickließem, Germany

4948

MitchellSince1893
06-18-2015, 10:03 PM
...you can also plot the midpoint of all subclade midpoints.
Midpoint of these 4 branches of U152...Großrinderfeld, Germany

4950

And a summary map showing recently discussed locations (P312-Kromsdorf, U152 Osterhofen)

4951

I know it's a 1000-1500 years later than Bell Beaker, but this white shaded area in the above map is just North of the Bronze Age Hallstatt Culture core region (see below)

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Hallstatt_La_Tene_map.gif

ArmandoR1b
06-18-2015, 10:50 PM
I was looking at possible links between Northern Italy and the Osterhofen-Altenmarkt site and found this map that shows the distribution Bell Beaker antler pendants...

http://r1b.org/imgs/Bell_Beaker_Pendants_Map

Is there a list of radiocarbon dating for those somewhere?

lamahorse
06-19-2015, 02:08 PM
Mid-point of my yet unnamed subgroup of U152 is probably in the mid-Atlantic based on our three members. However both the other two members have definite Irish roots just beyond any determined records so based on our small sample, we'd be based somewhere between Limerick and Cork in mid Munster.

It remains unclear if we are a distant isolated cluster however at this point due to us being such a small sample.

I don't think it's particularly likely that each migration, grouping or tribe that carried U152 would have be homogeneously the same subclade either. Certain groups would have invariably carried a mix, right?

R.Rocca
06-19-2015, 05:02 PM
Is there a list of radiocarbon dating for those somewhere?

Unfortunately Armando, I have not been able to find radiocarbon dating for the Osterhofen-Altenmarkt site anywhere. Interestingly one such pendant is from the Boscombe Bowmen gave.

MitchellSince1893
06-21-2015, 06:40 PM
I've done that in a different thread for Z49...but I can expand it to those directly under U152.

In case anyone was looking for the Z49 midpoint.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2729-Z49-where-did-it-come-from-How-did-it-expand&p=72083&viewfull=1#post72083

Pigmon
06-21-2015, 06:44 PM
In case anyone was looking for the Z49 midpoint.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2729-Z49-where-did-it-come-from-How-did-it-expand&p=72066&viewfull=1#post72066
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2729-Z49-where-did-it-come-from-How-did-it-expand&p=72083&viewfull=1#post72083

Is that in present day Germany?

MitchellSince1893
06-21-2015, 06:48 PM
Is that in present day Germany?
-----

48.888706 N and 6.110821 E or just east of Atton, France

falconson1
06-21-2015, 08:33 PM
I suspect that the midpoint for L20 would be to the west in France.

MitchellSince1893
06-21-2015, 10:08 PM
I suspect that the midpoint for L20 would be to the west in France.
You are correct sir.

L20 Mid Pt
Latitude: 49.744313 N. Longitude: 3.126768 E. Near Dury, France.
5025

To reduce the impact of the British Isles testing bias I removed approximately 10-15 British Isles samples and the Mid Pt moved to:
Latitude: 48.775844, Longitude: 4.102666 near Lenharrée, France or 80 miles South Southeast of the pt above.

mustangy
05-19-2019, 04:55 AM
Hi everyone this is my firs post as an eastern turkey ,kurdish area burn currently living in usa i had same U152.
But when read here i really get confused how all those u152 is from western France north Italy ?? and just one post up says brtish isle for L20 ??
WTF geno 2.0 mixed the sample tubes or what ??

MitchellSince1893
05-19-2019, 06:03 AM
Hi everyone this is my firs post as an eastern turkey ,kurdish area burn currently living in usa i had same U152.
But when read here i really get confused how all those u152 is from western France north Italy ?? and just one post up says brtish isle for L20 ??
WTF geno 2.0 mixed the sample tubes or what ??

U152 has it's highest present day percentages in Northern Italy, Corsica, and Switzerland, but it's found all over Western Europe. While not as common further east, U152 is found in these countries in the FTDNA database.

Turkey: 5 samples
Azerbaijan: 1 sample
Kazakhstan: 1 sample
Iraq: 1 sample
Iran: 1 sample
Armenia: 1 sample
Saudi Arabia: 1 sample
India: 1 sample

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-U152

Solothurn
06-12-2019, 07:40 PM
I was in Azerbaijan two weeks ago :)

MitchellSince1893
06-12-2019, 10:00 PM
I was in Azerbaijan two weeks ago :)



Spot any U152ers? They have a very distinctive "Trans-Alpinic" stride when they walk.

Solothurn
06-25-2019, 12:48 PM
Haha no didn’t spot any :)



Spot any U152ers? They have a very distinctive "Trans-Alpinic" stride when they walk.