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TigerMW
05-14-2013, 03:08 AM
DF83 could be an important early branching subclade of DF27. It is very widely spread geographically with only a few results in. It is parallel to the big Z196 subclade.


From my FTDNA results (Kit 235308) DF83 is not downstream of L86.2, L194, L484.M, L617, L881, L1231, or Z196; from Geno 2.0 testing (perhaps not as reliable) it is not downstream of Z195, Z225, or Z229. The three DF83- kits in the P312 project (at last check) do not rule out DF83 being upstream of any of these (barring error on
my part). I haven’t made the effort to learn how to access the 1000 Genome data to see if any of those rule out such a position. The last time I checked, all recent P312 data was consistent with DF27 > DF83 > CTS6519.

As to geography, of the known DF83+ individuals, my ancestry is English, perhaps earlier from Southern France, John Waldens is thought to be from Scotland, and kit 114718 is from Spain. In the 1000 Genomes project, kit NA20770 is from Tuscany and kit HG00739 is from Puerto Rico. It looks like DF83 is part of the Iberian connection.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-P312-Project/message/5722?threaded=1&var=1&p=16

Although not mentioned above, I believe a HG project participant from Peru was also DF83+.

razyn
05-14-2013, 03:23 AM
Do we know what CTS6519 does, or doesn't, have to do with it? It was briefly discussed here: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-P312-Project/message/5591

Rathna
05-14-2013, 05:26 AM
"It looks like DF83 is part of the Iberian connection. "

Or from Tuscany to Iberia like other haplogroups?

TigerMW
05-14-2013, 11:58 AM
"It looks like DF83 is part of the Iberian connection. "

Or from Tuscany to Iberia like other haplogroups?

That quote is actually from Norm on the Yahoo group so we won't get a response from him here.

I'm not sure if DF83 went from (1) the Italian Peninsula to the Iberian Peninsula or (2) vice versa or from (3) France, Switzerland or North Italy to both the Italian and Iberian Peninsulas.

Rathna
05-14-2013, 12:39 PM
That quote is actually from Norm on the Yahoo group so we won't get a response from him here.


Your response is enough for me. The proofs in favour of my theories are becoming numerous. The last I have spoken about is also two Tuscan R1a/Y40/Z96-s. See eng.molgen.

TigerMW
05-16-2013, 03:13 AM
Here are the DF83+ people from our DNA projects, to-date.

f4354 zzzUnk(Walden CTS6519+ d83- uas Scotland
f114718 Zapatero DF83+ DF79- DF81- d83-111111 Spain, Asturias, Seriego Major
f235308 Noble CTS6519+ L484- L1231- d83-1514 England, South East, Kent
f202732 Roach DF83+ d83-1514 UK

razyn
08-27-2013, 09:36 PM
This thread was begun before we had a DF27 project; now we do, so it might be time to refresh it. I don't have much to add, but the group has grown just a bit and most of its members have long haplotypes. I notice a little shared off-modality (from the project's current DF27+, Z196- people) at DYS390=23 and DYS570=16. Whether that is more or less significant than other patterns that I haven't spotted, I can't say. (The "modal" group may well contain untested DF83+ guys, and if so, their removal could easily change some marker's modal value against which I have compared the current list of tested haplotypes.) Of the new haplotypes visible, the long one for f9893 Walden (now deceased) can stand in for his brother's son f4354; it's the latter, with only 25 markers, who has tested these SNPs. Another new one is f170727 Banks, with no European place of origin named at this time.

The previously suggested correlation of DF83+ with CTS6519+ seems to be holding up.

razyn
01-12-2015, 03:36 AM
A new DF83+ SNP test result has posted today for an FTDNA kit, 329341, that had previously received Big Y test results. The SNP results that post automatically to our projects do not include a call for CTS6519, and his was not so reported. However, as I have reported to the P312 and DF27 Yahoo groups this evening, this is one of the many "Known SNPs" that are listed in one's Big Y results. There is a box at the head of that column wherein one may enter the name of a SNP and see if there is a call for it. Entering CTS6519 in this box for kit 329341 I discovered that he is, in fact, positive for that mutation. [Edit: I have now looked through the results of all 76 members of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup project who are DF27+ but Z195-, and have Big Y results in hand. The only cases that show any result for the known SNP CTS6519 are the positives -- and they are also DF83+.]

I suspect that it's stable -- and if so, CTS6519 is either a subclade of DF83, or vice versa, or they are equivalent. The latter seems most likely.

michaelcooley
02-05-2015, 07:24 PM
Hello. I'm new to this forum. I'm an admin for Cooley and other surname projects. Last night I added kit #128108 to DF27. His Big Y came in Dec 24. Although FTDNA reported P312* Yfull reports this: ID YF02807: P312 > DF27 > Z2559 > DF83 > Z2562 > Z2565 > Z2564

I haven't found much info for the SNPs downstream of DF83. I wonder how reliable they are.

A person for a collateral line for his EKA (1615-1684) is going to order the Big Y soon.

michaelcooley
02-05-2015, 07:29 PM
I see now that #128108 *is* positive for CTS6519.

dp
02-05-2015, 09:10 PM
Hello. I'm new to this forum. I'm an admin for Cooley and other surname projects. Last night I added kit #128108 to DF27. His Big Y came in Dec 24. Although FTDNA reported P312* Yfull reports this: ID YF02807: P312 > DF27 > Z2559 > DF83 > Z2562 > Z2565 > Z2564

I haven't found much info for the SNPs downstream of DF83. I wonder how reliable they are.

A person for a collateral line for his EKA (1615-1684) is going to order the Big Y soon.

Welcome to Anthrogenica!
dp :-)

rln
06-24-2015, 07:55 PM
YSEQ reports my DF83 test positive (del+). Kit 102140, ancestor John Nothstein is on the DF27 spreadsheet. Ancestors are apparently from the upper Rhineland/ Black Forest on the north bank of the Rhine. I will also report this to Yahoo group soon. Its a very scattered group indeed.

razyn
06-24-2015, 10:05 PM
OK, I will move 102140 to group H. Just added 333436 to it a couple of days ago.

razyn
07-21-2015, 07:12 PM
Added kits 391179 and (belatedly) 128108 to the DF83 group (H) today, both based on BigY results.

I'm seeing very little suggestion that this SNP is predominantly Iberian, among those testing at FTDNA. It looked more that way from 1000 Genomes samples, but then everything does -- there was a heavy Latin American bias in that data set. (And the FTDNA set has a heavy bias toward people testing at FTDNA, whatever that proves.) Anyway the first few posts on this thread might be compared with the surnames and MDKAs in the DF27 project, for a little phylogeographical balance that might otherwise be missed.

rln
08-27-2015, 09:56 PM
I just checked into my FTDNA account to check the haplotree, and DF83 is now listed. FTDNA now has it under P312 as a brother clade of BY653, L617, DF99, L238, DF19, U152, L194, and L21.

TigerMW
08-27-2015, 11:30 PM
I just checked into my FTDNA account to check the haplotree, and DF83 is now listed. FTDNA now has it under P312 as a brother clade of BY653, L617, DF99, L238, DF19, U152, L194, and L21.
Are you confirmed DF27+. If so that alone (with a DF27+ DF83- person) is proof that DF83 is downstream of DF27. We need to do the same check on BY653 as it is under DF27 too. If we send the kit #s to FTDNA they'll fix the haplotree.

gotten
08-27-2015, 11:58 PM
rln's kit was DF27+ confirmed by FTDNA and DF83+ at YSEQ so that might not be convincing enough for FTDNA. The Zapatero kit 114718 has both DF27+ and DF83+ tested at FTDNA and so does the 333436 Stockman kit (amongst others).
The Chamberlain kit 7133 has both BY653+ and DF27+ at FTDNA.

razyn
08-28-2015, 12:16 AM
FTDNA now has it under P312 as a brother clade of BY653, L617, DF99, L238, DF19, U152, L194, and L21.

Um, a bunch of those are not brothers... FTDNA does not always hear the ringing of the Clue Phone.

In the DF27 project, BY653 is now group L; L617 is now group Ga; L194 is "group" S (one tested guy, and a couple of his relatives with near-identical haplotypes).

And btw DF83, subject of this thread, is no longer group H -- since Monday night, it is group J.

If you know of any more DF83+ tested people (especially project members stuck in the new group E) who belong in the DF83 group, feel free to suggest them to me (by kit number). I don't care -- or need to know, really -- where they tested it -- at least YSEQ, BritainsDNA, and FGC are fine. But I only see the test results posted to the DF27 project members' accounts at FTDNA, as a matter of routine.

razyn
09-08-2015, 02:16 AM
DF83 is one of the DF27+, ZZ12+ subclades that is called by the new M-343 Backbone pack. And out of about 40 or so tests that have posted from the first two batches, we've acquired two DF83+ (group J) members. They are the ones whose green haplogroup ID actually calls them DF83. The rest were identified as DF83+ by targeted SNP testing, or having that position called in their BigY results.

rln
09-14-2015, 10:52 PM
Yfull Experimental Ytree v3.14:

R-Z2559 / Z2560 * Z2558 * Z2559 * Z2561 (Sweden)

R-DF83 (Puerto Rico)

R-Z2562 / Z2563 * Z2562 (Lima Peru)

R-Z2565 / Z2566/CTS9545 / S4240 * Z2565 * CTS6519 / S4247 * Z2567
(Puerto Rico)

R-Y15647 / Y15647 * Y15925 * Y15926 * Y15954 (England)

R-Z2564 / Z2564 (Tuscany, England)


Yseq DF27/DF83 panel:

Z2560
DF83
Z2563
Z2567
Y15926
Z2564


The Big Tree: R-DF27/S250:

ZZ12
DF83
Z2560
Z2558
Z2561
Z2559
Z2563
Z2562
S4240 Z2566 CTS9545
Z2564
13703461-G-A
CTS6519 S4247
Z2567
Z2565
Y15924
Y15925
Y15926
15502554-G-C
15521903-T-C
15896819-A-T
18957086-C-T
21996048-A-T
22465191-C-T




From familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27 Box J. DF83+ (ZZ12>DF83); eqiv. CTS6519+:

Nava, Asturias, Spain & Black Forest/Rhineland, Germany plus 13 unknowns & USAs

gstockman
09-17-2015, 11:48 PM
Hey there, RLN

I had to do a double take. We each have the exact same Big Tree results!

GFS

rln
09-18-2015, 02:28 AM
gstockman: Sorry, but those are not my results. I was trying to do a comparison of the SNPs on FullY, Yseq, and BigTree, but the tabs didn't work and the posting looks bad. I was just trying to show that Yseq matches FullY and BigTree closely. So far, I'm just DF83.

Good Luck

Craig T
10-09-2015, 09:40 AM
Hi Michael--

I manage the Y-DNA results (BigY, Y-111) for my uncle, Randall Lee--the same Lee who is in the same terminal block at Alex Williamson's Big Tree project (here (http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=232&star=false)).

I do not have much to share--our group of DF83+ men is a small one, but it is always good to connect with neighbors. I am trying to encourage those closest matches to Randall's STR results to test at BigY--along with anyone else from the same group at the upstream projects.

I look forward to seeing our neighborhood grow in the coming years--happy to touch base.

-Craig T.


Hello. I'm new to this forum. I'm an admin for Cooley and other surname projects. Last night I added kit #128108 to DF27. His Big Y came in Dec 24. Although FTDNA reported P312* Yfull reports this: ID YF02807: P312 > DF27 > Z2559 > DF83 > Z2562 > Z2565 > Z2564

I haven't found much info for the SNPs downstream of DF83. I wonder how reliable they are.

A person for a collateral line for his EKA (1615-1684) is going to order the Big Y soon.

rln
11-01-2015, 10:36 PM
michaelcooley and gstockman:

Iím updating my results from YSEQ, and I am very close to your results.
My new results: DF83>Z2567>Z2564 (Y15926 ancestral)

Do either of you men have an ancestor in Europe? There are many DF83 men in the DF27 project that donít know about ancestors. Are either of you in the project? From the YFull Experimental Tree we see ancestors from: Sweden>Puerto Rico>Lima Peru>England/Tuscany. From the DF27 project: Asturias Spain & Upper Rhineland Germany (me). According to YFull's age estimations, all these SNPs came into existance in the Bronze Age. This depth is as far as YSEQ, YFull, and The Big Tree (ytree.net) go. Perhaps the new FTDNA Deep Clade test for DF27 will be deeper. I donít know. Perhaps Mike Walsh can fill us all in.

Ron Notestine

razyn
11-01-2015, 11:56 PM
Perhaps the new FTDNA Deep Clade test for DF27 will be deeper. I don’t know. Perhaps Mike Walsh can fill us all in.

I'm no Mike Walsh, but he posted this to the Yahoo group and has said I could share as needed, with the caveat that it's his interpretation, not any official release from FTDNA. Here are the SNPs tested in the new R1b-DF27 pack, immediately above and below DF83:

6502

razyn
11-01-2015, 11:58 PM
I might add that DF83 itself (not these others) is tested on the M-343 Backbone pack, and we just got the first DF83+ new member from that source yesterday: 323174 Vienneau.

rln
11-02-2015, 12:21 AM
Mr. razyn:
It appears that Z2564 is as deep as it goes for awhile, and that we will in the Bronze Age for a while.
Thanks for your info.
Ron Notestine

razyn
11-02-2015, 01:40 AM
Mr. razyn:
It appears that Z2564 is as deep as it goes for awhile, and that we will in the Bronze Age for a while.

Well, depending on whose tree you believe. BY3233 on Mike's chart is 15502554, G-C (found on Alex's Big Tree, and two levels lower). That's Y15647 at YFull -- they give it the same level as Z2564, but not the same age. I have expressed no opinion about its age, geography, whose tree is better, or the validity of one age-estimation method over another (apart from some misgivings about the sanity of SNP counting for prediction purposes).

rln
11-02-2015, 04:36 AM
Mr. Razyn:
I tested negative at YSeq for Y15926 which seems to be co-equal to Y15647 at YFull. Z2564 is a brother clade to Y15926/Y15647 at YFull and Yseq, but at Big Tree it is 2 above as you say. I hope to see more science in this area rather than relying on belief. Surely the 3 trees will be reporting the same levels in a few years.
thanks again for your comments,
Ron Notestine

razyn
11-02-2015, 01:37 PM
I think both YFull's tree and Alex's Big Tree are based on data they have, and they don't have the same data. YFull may have somewhat finer detail on average, but fewer branches covered at all (fine detail makes no difference, in the absence of a sample). Most of Alex's tree has been built from .bed files compared with 1kG project files; YFull's is from BAM files compared with 1kG. Full Genomes Corp. also has a tree from BAM files plus several sources not used by the others; we don't see their tree, but we see SNP names they assign. FTDNA, the several incarnations of BritainsDNA, and other major labs that are not in the "direct to consumer" testing business use different trees, SNP lists, and (especially) criteria for acceptance of the validity or usefulness of a particular mutation, for their in-house tree structures.

I just try to group my 1263 DF27 project members some way that looks useful, and potentially cuts down on my email traffic. It's all science -- we're talking about little bitty stuff that you can't see -- but it's not all based on the same assumptions, working for the same boss, paid for as opposed to given away, funded by a research institution that's looking for disease cures to sell, and so on. Science doesn't care who your ancestors and cousins are. Our hobby gets a fairly cheap piggy-back ride on some expensive equipment; its makers and users have expensive educations, and the top professionals in the field may for all I know earn high salaries (though some of the best are working for free, as these specialized companies start up).

MacUalraig
11-02-2015, 02:52 PM
Also some trees are more speculative than others! eg DYZ19 SNPs, the ZZ SNPs Alex is displaying etc.

rln
11-02-2015, 04:48 PM
Mr. razyn:
Mr. MacUalraig brings up a point which has been puzzling me. What is the basis of ZZ12? You refer to it in the project spreadsheet, and I haven't found where it comes from. Knowing anything about this may help me understand how widely spread the DF83 clade is.
thanks for your comments,
Ron Notestine

razyn
11-02-2015, 09:26 PM
What is the basis of ZZ12? You refer to it in the project spreadsheet, and I haven't found where it comes from. Knowing anything about this may help me understand how widely spread the DF83 clade is.

I don't think that it helps much to answer the question you want addressed. But the main thread about ZZ12 was three or four months ago, and isn't specific to DF83. Alex shows 17 subclades directly below ZZ12, one of which is DF83. So discussing it here, at length, is a stroll off topic. For more on ZZ12, see:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4938-The-Great-Divide-below-DF27

razyn
03-17-2016, 09:08 PM
Alex has inserted a newly discovered, peculiar SNP ZZ51 below ZZ12 and above DF83. See his Big Tree for the latest, which may or may not look the same in a few days or weeks, but this is it at the moment: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1460&star=false

I also reorganized the relevant subgroup J in the R1b-DF27 project. It now has three levels instead of one. Not everybody is getting these test results in the same level of detail, by the same methods, or all at one company. So it involves some tap-dancing around the group definitions. Those of us reading this forum (and thread) may know that kit 102140 is DF83>Z2567>Z2564+, Y15926-; but FTDNA doesn't, so the display just says he's DF27, in green. On the other hand, neither YSEQ nor FTDNA know about ZZ51, yet -- but the FTDNA project for DF27 shows three levels of it. And we could show more; but then there would be several groups with two members, and those aren't very instructive.

Earl Davis
03-19-2016, 09:10 PM
DF83 has recently gained a named brother clade on the Big Tree, that being Z19656.

Earl.

E_M81_I3A
07-29-2016, 07:20 PM
deleted

E_M81_I3A
07-29-2016, 07:21 PM
My nephew received his BigY results and he is DF27/ZZ12/Z2560/DF83/Z2563/Y15926/BY3233. Only 4 individuals belong to BY3233 among the 1 500 member of FtDna DF27 project.

His paternal line is from South France (Auvergne/Languedoc).

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/759476R1bBY3233.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=759476R1bBY3233.jpg)

I will send his results to YFull and BY3233 should be under R-Y15647 (Y15926) below.

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/920194R1bDF27Z2559DF83Z2562Z2565Y15647BY3233.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=920194R1bDF27Z2559DF83Z2562Z2565Y156 47BY3233.jpg)

razyn
07-30-2016, 09:07 PM
I'm kind of stalling while Alex completes his analysis of a couple of the samples he already has placed in this area. At the moment it looks as if DF83 has two brother clades (those guys are all in J* at the moment). FTDNA isn't calling any of their defining SNPs, and Alex hasn't yet settled on one for the newest branch. Then there's a lot of fine tuning below DF83 itself. I can make a subgroup for BY3233, but some of them that only have a couple of members yet are a little tentative looking. Here's the Big Tree picture if you haven't looked recently: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1460

E_M81_I3A
07-30-2016, 09:37 PM
Thanks for the link, I just sent the file.

razyn
08-02-2016, 08:10 PM
Alex has completed his analysis of the samples he has (so far) belonging to the two brother clades of DF83 (that are also below ZZ51). I have created several new subgroups today. The DF83 group itself still has a good many samples with the red or pink background color, indicating that the sample in question is not completely analyzed yet. In the case of 1000 Genomes samples (beginning with NA or HG) they may wait indefinitely, until some better-tested person matches them. But a couple of them are project members with NextGen results, and their final analysis could still create another branch or two below DF83.

At the moment there is no group J or J*, because our only four samples that weren't DF83+ have gone into the new ZZ51 subgroups Jb and Jc.

Some of the mutations have yet to receive a name, and at least one name being called by FTDNA in this group (BY3704) is recurrent. On the FTDNA haplotree it is only identified under L21; and our ZZ51 new member N38191 has tested negative for L21 (and several of its subclades that are above that instance of BY3704). So basically that SNP is "noise."

E_M81_I3A
10-03-2016, 06:28 PM
I have now received my nephew's YFull results :

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/440165R1bNeveu3.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=440165R1bNeveu3.jpg)

gstockman
10-27-2016, 03:46 PM
I have now received my nephew's YFull results :

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/440165R1bNeveu3.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=440165R1bNeveu3.jpg)

Hello! I assume your nephew is listed at YFull is YF6996. My YFull ID is YF3593. FTDNA has moved me from BY3233 to BY12211.

E_M81_I3A
10-27-2016, 04:58 PM
Hello! I assume your nephew is listed at YFull is YF6996. My YFull ID is YF3593. FTDNA has moved me from BY3233 to BY12211.

Hello, yes my nephew is YF6996. And where is your paternal line from ? England ?

gstockman
10-27-2016, 06:18 PM
It is my understanding my GG grandfather was born in England. My mother was from Scotland.
Are you from France?

E_M81_I3A
10-27-2016, 07:02 PM
It is my understanding my GG grandfather was born in England. My mother was from Scotland.
Are you from France?

My nephew's paternal line is from South of France (Auvergne/Languedoc). So according to Yfull, your common paternal ancestor lived 1800 years ago. I wonder where he lived.

gstockman
10-27-2016, 08:50 PM
I know of a fairly close Y-DNA match who told me his ancestry was southern France.
A long time ago I was told by a 2nd cousin that she believed the family tree went back to the Alsace and Lorraine region. Unfortunately, she has passed away. She would've just loved working with DNA.
If you can send me a PM we can carry on with some privacy.

curiousII
01-19-2018, 06:03 PM
Deleted, question answered.

Webb
06-04-2020, 04:49 PM
In case anyone still looks at this thread. 2500 ydna calls were uploaded over in the Ancient DNA sub forum and one appears to be DF27>DF83. I don't know how accurate the call is so I asked and it seems it is possible.

Sample I5441 England_C_EBA R1b1a1b1a1a2a7

"Neale's Cave (Paington, Devon, England)
3583 Contact person: Tom Booth
3584 Neale’s Cave (also known as Lynx Cave) is located inside the grounds of Paington Zoo
3585 near the town of Paignton in Devon. It was excavated in 1958-59 by Neale and
Sutcliffe240–242 3586 . The cave is best known for its assemblage of faunal remains, which
3587 includes horse, reindeer, red fox, hare, wolf, red deer, cattle, lynx, badger and mole. The
3588 lack of any unambiguous domestic species suggested that remains represented a
3589 Mesolithic or mixed Mesolithic/Late Glacial assemblage. One of the horse bones
3590 produced a Late Glacial radiocarbon date 10,603-10,097 calBCE (10420Ī75, OxA6670) during the Younger Dryas climatic event
243 3591 . The site archive is curated in the
3592 Natural History Museum in London.
3593 The Neale’s Cave assemblage also included fragments of human cranium representing
3594 at least one individual. Osteological assessment suggested that at least one adult of
3595 indeterminable sex was represented. The lack of any postcranial elements may suggest
3596 that the body was defleshed elsewhere before the cranium was deposited in the cave. No
3597 datable archaeological artefacts were recovered from Neale’s Cave, but the nature of the
3598 faunal assemblage suggested that the human remains dated to the Mesolithic. However,
3599 radiocarbon dating of one of the cranial fragments (NHM EM.425) produced an Early
122
3600 Bronze Age date (Rick Schulting, pers. comm.). DNA data from a sample of a petrous
3601 process of a temporal bone (NHM EM.588) from Neale’s Cave were included in this
3602 study. As all of the cranial bones could have come from one individual, it is likely,
3603 although not guaranteed, that the temporal bone came from the same person as the dated
3604 cranial fragment.
3605 ü I5441/EM.588: 2000–1600 BCE"

razyn
06-06-2020, 03:36 PM
In case anyone still looks at this thread. 2500 ydna calls were uploaded over in the Ancient DNA sub forum and one appears to be DF27>DF83. I don't know how accurate the call is so I asked and it seems it is possible.

I had a little trouble finding the thread with that batch of posts, and searching within it -- so I'll just tag it this way: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples&p=672275&viewfull=1#post672275

And once you're in that thread, see also posts #49 and #50. Anyway, good job (by Webb) noticing a DF27 subclade through all the fog of nomenclature.

DF83 is also on the ZZ12 side of the tracks, as were a couple of ancient Z225/Z229 samples from Alsace and Iberia.

I saw Webb's wistful comment on an L21 thread but had missed these more DF27-specific examples, though I scroll through "New posts" pretty frequently, often more than once a day. (And ignore the vast majority.)

Webb
06-06-2020, 04:17 PM
I had a little trouble finding the thread with that batch of posts, and searching within it -- so I'll just tag it this way: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples&p=672275&viewfull=1#post672275

And once you're in that thread, see also posts #49 and #50. Anyway, good job (by Webb) noticing a DF27 subclade through all the fog of nomenclature.

DF83 is also on the ZZ12 side of the tracks, as were a couple of ancient Z225/Z229 samples from Alsace and Iberia.

I saw Webb's wistful comment on an L21 thread but had missed these more DF27-specific examples, though I scroll through "New posts" pretty frequently, often more than once a day. (And ignore the vast majority.)

It was rather wistful, wasnít it? Itís the result of being torn between shouting it to the heavens, or cautiously announcing it knowing that someone may come along, probably R.Rocca, and squash my hopes by determining the sample isnít DF27>DF83. And thank you for posting the link, I didnít have the patience for it after I had scrolled through 2500 samples.

razyn
06-06-2020, 08:25 PM
thank you for posting the link, I didn’t have the patience for it after I had scrolled through 2500 samples.

Btw the reason I had trouble finding that thread is that it lurks in a purple Sub-forum I hadn't noticed, about Uniparental markers. Who knew? So those posts aren't to be found in the regular old Ancient DNA list, for plebs.

rms2
06-06-2020, 08:38 PM
In case anyone still looks at this thread. 2500 ydna calls were uploaded over in the Ancient DNA sub forum and one appears to be DF27>DF83. I don't know how accurate the call is so I asked and it seems it is possible.

Sample I5441 England_C_EBA R1b1a1b1a1a2a7

"Neale's Cave (Paington, Devon, England)
3583 Contact person: Tom Booth
3584 Neale’s Cave (also known as Lynx Cave) is located inside the grounds of Paington Zoo
3585 near the town of Paignton in Devon. It was excavated in 1958-59 by Neale and
Sutcliffe240–242 3586 . The cave is best known for its assemblage of faunal remains, which
3587 includes horse, reindeer, red fox, hare, wolf, red deer, cattle, lynx, badger and mole. The
3588 lack of any unambiguous domestic species suggested that remains represented a
3589 Mesolithic or mixed Mesolithic/Late Glacial assemblage. One of the horse bones
3590 produced a Late Glacial radiocarbon date 10,603-10,097 calBCE (10420Ī75, OxA6670) during the Younger Dryas climatic event
243 3591 . The site archive is curated in the
3592 Natural History Museum in London.
3593 The Neale’s Cave assemblage also included fragments of human cranium representing
3594 at least one individual. Osteological assessment suggested that at least one adult of
3595 indeterminable sex was represented. The lack of any postcranial elements may suggest
3596 that the body was defleshed elsewhere before the cranium was deposited in the cave. No
3597 datable archaeological artefacts were recovered from Neale’s Cave, but the nature of the
3598 faunal assemblage suggested that the human remains dated to the Mesolithic. However,
3599 radiocarbon dating of one of the cranial fragments (NHM EM.425) produced an Early
122
3600 Bronze Age date (Rick Schulting, pers. comm.). DNA data from a sample of a petrous
3601 process of a temporal bone (NHM EM.588) from Neale’s Cave were included in this
3602 study. As all of the cranial bones could have come from one individual, it is likely,
3603 although not guaranteed, that the temporal bone came from the same person as the dated
3604 cranial fragment.
3605 Ÿ I5441/EM.588: 2000–1600 BCE"

I despise the ISOGG longhand. I really do. It seems designed to obfuscate. Wish they would just stick with the major haplogroup + the SNP furthest downstream that they are able to ascertain. So elegant, so clean and clear, like a mountain stream. Sigh . . .

Anyway, I responded to your wistful post over in the L21 Beaker thread by mentioning that my maternal grandfather is R1b-DF83. I know that from the results of relatives; my grandfather passed away in 1956, when I was a baby. Wish I had gotten a test for my one maternal uncle, but he died of lung cancer back in 2008 (life-long cigarette smoker, but a great guy). Now I am dependent on the tests of those relatives I mentioned, and none of them has done any kind of Big Y yet.

The fact that this DF83 Beaker guy was recovered in Devon is really cool, because my mom's maiden surname was Gist, and Devon is the hotspot for that surname (though my immigrant ancestor in that line was apparently born in Wiltshire).

Here's the surname map again:

37913

Evidently my immigrant Gist ancestor was armigerous, and here is the coat of arms he bore:

37914

Webb
06-06-2020, 09:00 PM
It’s an interesting clade as it was formed around 2000 B.C. according to Ytree and surprisingly has very few Iberian kits. It’s predominately British with some very English surnames. There are two large clusters, one is Barnum and the other is Cooley. This is just Ytree. I’ve never looked at the grouping at the DF27 project. I also find it interesting that the remains were in a cave as the two Sicilian DF27 Bell Beakers were also found in a cave.

rms2
06-08-2020, 05:16 PM
I tried looking at the dna results page of the DF27 Project, but for some reasons my computer goes all glitchy when trying to scroll through those pages of large FTDNA projects. After awhile I just give up.

Could be my old computer. I'll find out soon, because I'm supposed to be getting a new one for Father's Day, a more up-to-date computer, faster, and with more memory.

Webb
06-10-2020, 01:26 PM
37950

Here is the first screen shot.

37951

Second screen shot.

Webb
06-10-2020, 02:03 PM
I tried looking at the dna results page of the DF27 Project, but for some reasons my computer goes all glitchy when trying to scroll through those pages of large FTDNA projects. After awhile I just give up.

Could be my old computer. I'll find out soon, because I'm supposed to be getting a new one for Father's Day, a more up-to-date computer, faster, and with more memory.

I checked and there is one Guest confirmed for just DF83. I posted screenshots above. The other Gists are listed as presumed positive because of matching Guest.

razyn
06-10-2020, 06:30 PM
@rms2 the Devon genealogy crowd have a fairly active FB page, if that's news check it out here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/devonfhs/ I did a quick Search Group, and there have been at least one post each about Guest and Gist (maybe from Bideford?).

Father's Day sale pricing has just kicked in at FTDNA, in case you want to pester your cousin to upgrade --

rms2
06-22-2020, 01:29 PM
I tried looking at the dna results page of the DF27 Project, but for some reasons my computer goes all glitchy when trying to scroll through those pages of large FTDNA projects. After awhile I just give up.

Could be my old computer. I'll find out soon, because I'm supposed to be getting a new one for Father's Day, a more up-to-date computer, faster, and with more memory.

Yep. It was my old computer. Just got a new one for Father's Day yesterday. Now it's easy to navigate the truly massive DF27 Project.

Webb
06-22-2020, 02:34 PM
Yep. It was my old computer. Just got a new one for Father's Day yesterday. Now it's easy to navigate the truly massive DF27 Project.

It's quite amazing to think back to when we were either M153, SRY2627 or just P312*. Some of us were lucky enough to carry the specific STR signature to identify us as at least being part of the old North/South Cluster. Those guys who were part of the ZZ12 half of DF27 really have had the longest wait, but we are now the second largest P312 subclade and have developed a really nice tree.

rms2
06-22-2020, 02:39 PM
I remember those old days, especially of Rootsweb and Ken Nordtvedt's discovery of the North/South cluster.

razyn
06-25-2020, 05:18 PM
I remember those old days, especially of Rootsweb and Ken Nordtvedt's discovery of the North/South cluster.

I wasn't onboard yet, for that -- but my results came in early 2011, just in time for Larry Mayka (who was looking for matches to some weird results in his Polish project) to identify a few of us as the "Pseudo North/South Cluster." I swapped emails with him, and with Nordtvedt. After the useless "Deep Clade" test (of that era Webb just mentioned), it took a bunch of single-SNP tests to dig through all the new "P312*" stuff being discovered by Rocca et al, primarily by mining the 1000 Genomes data. David Reynolds was also deeply involved, until suddenly he wasn't. And important new discoveries such as DF27, DF19 and DF99 got named for the old DNA-Forums -- which also disappeared about that time (say, November 2011, give or take).

Our Pseudo bunch also took a long detour by way of the ultimately unreliable SNP, L484 -- which had turned up when A. Squecco analyzed my results from 23andMe. It was present in several then-known members of the Pseudo gang; but turned out to be recurrent, found in other haplogroups and (rarely) absent in one or two of us Pseudos. So we quit cajoling people into testing for L484; sorry about that.

The BigY, FGC Elite and other NextGen sequencing capabilities caused the "SNP tsunami" that has gotten us to where we are. Which btw is waaay ahead of ISOGG; I wonder if Academe will ever notice that?

rms2
06-25-2020, 06:46 PM
You're just a kid, razyn. I was already at genetic genealogy for five years by 2011. ;)

razyn
06-25-2020, 07:56 PM
You're just a kid, razyn. I was already at genetic genealogy for five years by 2011. ;)

It's my second childhood. At the very least.

ADW_1981
06-26-2020, 01:50 AM
I'm curious what group Nordvedt was looking at when he called it "North-South"? I guess it would be a mix of CTS4065 and S21184 mostly. Despite the fact there is a large Swedish/Finnish group, that ancestor only goes back about 800 years. The rest of the results are mostly in central Europe. With nearly 1 million samples in the FTDNA Y database, so many must be hidden from our view.

rms2
06-27-2020, 04:31 PM
I'm curious what group Nordvedt was looking at when he called it "North-South"? I guess it would be a mix of CTS4065 and S21184 mostly. Despite the fact there is a large Swedish/Finnish group, that ancestor only goes back about 800 years. The rest of the results are mostly in central Europe. With nearly 1 million samples in the FTDNA Y database, so many must be hidden from our view.

I don't recall the details, but Ken often availed himself of the old Sorenson database, before it was devoured by Ancestry. I remember he dubbed the cluster in question North-South because there were exemplars from Scandinavia down through Central Europe, France, and southwest to Iberia. The spread was fairly narrowly northeast-southwest and not that broad in terms of east-west.

razyn
06-27-2020, 06:36 PM
I'm curious what group Nordvedt was looking at when he called it "North-South"? I guess it would be a mix of CTS4065 and S21184 mostly. Despite the fact there is a large Swedish/Finnish group, that ancestor only goes back about 800 years. The rest of the results are mostly in central Europe. With nearly 1 million samples in the FTDNA Y database, so many must be hidden from our view.

Since CTS4065 has been kicked around elsewhere on this forum, I updated a post of mine more specific to that haplogroup -- which I said, some years ago, seems to lean toward the non-Iberian part of DF27. (North part of the North/South cluster, if one thinks in those terms -- and is looking at a globe rather than a Mercator projection.) These are pretty broad-brush statistics, but they come from a place not many of us would have any reason to look. So I'll just footnote it here, in case anybody wants to juggle that stuff. Sorenson (as was) plus FTDNA plus 23andMe; somewhere in that heap must be some big numbers. And big numbers are generally a good influence on stats. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1275-DF27-Z295-CTS4065&p=679174&viewfull=1#post679174

TigerMW
06-28-2020, 04:44 AM
I'm curious what group Nordvedt was looking at when he called it "North-South"? I guess it would be a mix of CTS4065 and S21184 mostly. Despite the fact there is a large Swedish/Finnish group, that ancestor only goes back about 800 years. The rest of the results are mostly in central Europe. With nearly 1 million samples in the FTDNA Y database, so many must be hidden from our view.Kenís R1b North-South Cluster is keyed off the Super WAMH with these three off-modals: DYS437=14 DYS448=18 GataH4=10.
This aligns with R1b-Z209 subclade of DF27 and Z195 so it broader than a CTS4065. M153 is included although there are cases of a back mutation.

ADW_1981
06-28-2020, 05:26 AM
Ken’s R1b North-South Cluster is keyed off the Super WAMH with these three off-modals: DYS437=14 DYS448=18 GataH4=10.
This aligns with R1b-Z209 subclade of DF27 and Z195 so it broader than a CTS4065. M153 is included although there are cases of a back mutation.

Yeah I know, but for him to have referred to it as "North", would mean he identified some samples in the database who put their ancestry to a specific country. There are not many northerners outside the CTS4065 group or S21184 one. Some Danes and Swedes in the former, and Swedes and Finns in the latter whose MRCA is 800 years or so. I guess my point is that I am curious if he was aware of other samples who aren't in the DF27 project for example. I understand now the context of north-south, doesn't necessarily mean northern most Europe, just the directions of the cluster forms that general pattern. I'm still curious if he knew of other samples.

TigerMW
06-28-2020, 01:46 PM
Yeah I know, but for him to have referred to it as "North", would mean he identified some samples in the database who put their ancestry to a specific country. There are not many northerners outside the CTS4065 group or S21184 one. Some Danes and Swedes in the former, and Swedes and Finns in the latter whose MRCA is 800 years or so. I guess my point is that I am curious if he was aware of other samples who aren't in the DF27 project for example. I understand now the context of north-south, doesn't necessarily mean northern most Europe, just the directions of the cluster forms that general pattern. I'm still curious if he knew of other samples.
I can't find his old posts. They may have been on Rootsweb. I remember seeing that the North-South cluster was scattered more than many of his other R1b cluster identifications. At the time he wouldn't know CTS4065 was the only one to the north (if so). He did not have insight into the nature of the tree from Z209 on down. There was no CTS4065, nor Z209 for that matter.
Keep in mind that many clusters he identified were highly Isles concentrated so when he saw something more scattered he might note that. Another example is what he called Irish Type IV/Continental. Most people in this subclade that have tested are from Ireland but there is a continental contingent.

TigerMW
06-28-2020, 01:56 PM
Here is the Haplotree (Old World) Country Report on R-Z209.
England . . 18.19%
Spain . . . 15.84%
France . . 13.48%
Germany . . 7.07%
Ireland . . 5.89%
United Kingdom 3.80%
Scotland . . 3.40%
Portugal . . 2.88%
Switzerland . 2.49%
Italy . . . . 2.36%
Netherlands . 1.57%
Sweden . . . 1.31%
Denmark . . . 1.18%
Wales . . . . 1.05%

This is on 1,607 samples but the database is heavily biased towards British Isles descendants so you probably have to increase the proportions of the continental countries.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-Z209


R-CTS4065 has 107 branches out of R-Z209's 377 so CTS4065 would like almost 30% of the "R1b North-South Cluster".

We also might consider the terms "north" and "south" are somewhat relative. A lot of people would consider the British Isles in the north so if you count England, etc. then the proportion in the "north" looks a little larger.

razyn
06-28-2020, 09:32 PM
I can't find his old posts. They may have been on Rootsweb. I remember seeing that the North-South cluster was scattered more than many of his other R1b cluster identifications. At the time he wouldn't know CTS4065 was the only one to the north (if so). He did not have insight into the nature of the tree from Z209 on down. There was no CTS4065, nor Z209 for that matter.
Keep in mind that many clusters he identified were highly Isles concentrated so when he saw something more scattered he might note that. Another example is what he called Irish Type IV/Continental. Most people in this subclade that have tested are from Ireland but there is a continental contingent.

He's no slouch, but he's my age, and it gets harder to keep cranking out stuff as one's primary task becomes staying alive. His Wikipedia entry is pretty informative, I had read it years ago, but it's still up. The urls at the end lead to information, in our area and others, published at least several years ago. And note that his major focus has been on haplogroup I, not R1b. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Nordtvedt

rms2
06-28-2020, 11:01 PM
Yeah, Ken is of Norwegian descent and I-M253. Y haplogroup I is his main thing, more's the pity.

Too bad he wasn't R1b of some kind.

rms2
10-03-2020, 10:32 PM
Well, I am a little embarrassed. I thought I had my maternal grandfather's y-chromosome haplogroup pinpointed at DF83 via the Gist Project, but I was wrong. Here's how I know.

I recently recruited a known fourth cousin for a Y-37 test with FTDNA. He and I share a set of Gist third great grandparents, and he is from my mother's hometown. I expected his results to land him in Group 02 in the Gist Project, which has tested DF83+. Well, I was mistaken. My 4th cousin is a close match to the men in Group 01 instead. In fact, I learned from reading the notes of the project's former administrator (who passed away in the autumn of 2018) that there was a man descended from our third great grandfather's brother Joshua who also belonged in Group 01 but who never joined the project because he tested with the old company Relative Genetics. (Remember them? I do.)

Anyway, without going into too much detail, Group 01 is seriously under tested, completely lacking SNP testing. Only one of its members has even gone as far as 67 markers. Several of them were seriously old guys. I know for a fact that at least two of them are dead, and probably one or two more are, as well. Group 01 just has the usual FTDNA R1b-M269 prediction. Wish I had the extra money to buy my fourth cousin a Big Y-700. (Well, I do have it, but my wife would murder me in my sleep if I did it.)

I'm the project admin now, so I'm trying to sort through everything. It's very interesting, because there is a major mystery involved, but the Gist Project has lain dormant for a long time. It may be tough to fan whatever embers there are into some kind of flame.

Well, you DF27 guys are probably relieved to hear that you may not have me as any kind of relative.

TigerMW
10-04-2020, 01:27 AM
...
Well, you DF27 guys are probably relieved to hear that you may not have me as any kind of relative.
You are probably not let off the hook that easily. Somewhere, you probably do have a DF27 line even if not this one.

Does the group 01 Y67 guy have any matches that have done SNP testing? I see the DYS492=12.

rms2
10-04-2020, 01:52 AM
You are probably not let off the hook that easily. Somewhere, you probably do have a DF27 line even if not this one.

Does the group 01 Y67 guy have any matches that have done SNP testing? I see the DYS492=12.

Nope. He has no matches at 67, and all his matches at 37 are guys in Group 01 or people without SNP results.

I'm trying to talk somebody in the group, anybody, into doing the Big Y-700.

MitchellSince1893
10-04-2020, 02:05 AM
Well, I am a little embarrassed. I thought I had my maternal grandfather's y-chromosome haplogroup pinpointed at DF83 via the Gist Project, but I was wrong. Here's how I know.

I recently recruited a known fourth cousin for a Y-37 test with FTDNA. He and I share a set of Gist third great grandparents, and he is from my mother's hometown. I expected his results to land him in Group 02 in the Gist Project, which has tested DF83+. Well, I was mistaken. My 4th cousin is a close match to the men in Group 01 instead. In fact, I learned from reading the notes of the project's former administrator (who passed away in the autumn of 2018) that there was a man descended from our third great grandfather's brother Joshua who also belonged in Group 01 but who never joined the project because he tested with the old company Relative Genetics. (Remember them? I do.)

Anyway, without going into too much detail, Group 01 is seriously under tested, completely lacking SNP testing. Only one of its members has even gone as far as 67 markers. Several of them were seriously old guys. I know for a fact that at least two of them are dead, and probably one or two more are, as well. Group 01 just has the usual FTDNA R1b-M269 prediction. Wish I had the extra money to buy my fourth cousin a Big Y-700. (Well, I do have it, but my wife would murder me in my sleep if I did it.)

I'm the project admin now, so I'm trying to sort through everything. It's very interesting, because there is a major mystery involved, but the Gist Project has lain dormant for a long time. It may be tough to fan whatever embers there are into some kind of flame.

Well, you DF27 guys are probably relieved to hear that you may not have me as any kind of relative.

Sorry for this unexpected result. Glad to hear you are now the admin lead for the Gist, Gest, Guess, Guest project. As you might remember my father's closest paternal line match (MCRA ~1175 AD) is a Guess. He is already in your project in group 11 and done 111 markers and BigY700.
86098 Joseph GUESS (c1790 Orange NC) & Nancy RIGGS Unknown Origin R-FGC47883

I've been trying hard to break through his brick wall to get him beyond 1790 AD in Orange County NC and connect him to his closest y-dna match (MRCA ~1550 AD) with surname Adamthwaite. Adamthwaite line hits a brickwall at 1740 AD in Brough, Westmorland England.

rms2
10-04-2020, 02:11 AM
One of the problems with the project is that Member Subgrouping hasn't been working right since May. I have emailed FTDNA over and over and over about the problem, but they never fix it. If they don't do something soon - like within the next couple of weeks - I'm contacting Bennett Greenspan. He knows me, and he is actually one of my wife's sizeable Family Finder matches.

I run a number of projects. The Gist, etc., is the only one of them with a Member Subgrouping problem, so I know it's not my computer, my server, my search engine, yadda, yadda, yadda. It's an FTDNA problem.

Webb
10-04-2020, 12:42 PM
Nope. He has no matches at 67, and all his matches at 37 are guys in Group 01 or people without SNP results.

I'm trying to talk somebody in the group, anybody, into doing the Big Y-700.

One option would be to talk the 67 marker guy into upgrading to 111 on his own with the carrot that you will pay to upgrade him from 111 to Big Y. During the last sale the upgrade from 111 to Big Y was 225.00. Another option is to wait for the sale and offer to pay half to upgrade from 67 to Big Y. Unfortunately your group 01 is small so it may be harder to convince them of the fact that snp testing can refine matching lineages better than str testing. It looks to me that there is a total of 15 str differences at 67 markers between group 01 and group 02.

rms2
10-04-2020, 01:05 PM
One option would be to talk the 67 marker guy into upgrading to 111 on his own with the carrot that you will pay to upgrade him from 111 to Big Y. During the last sale the upgrade from 111 to Big Y was 225.00. Another option is to wait for the sale and offer to pay half to upgrade from 67 to Big Y. Unfortunately your group 01 is small so it may be harder to convince them of the fact that snp testing can refine matching lineages better than str testing. It looks to me that there is a total of 15 str differences at 67 markers between group 01 and group 02.

Yeah. I'm hoping that because he went as far as 67 markers on his own, he might have enough of the fire in his belly to upgrade on his own. If I personally contribute money, it will be to get my fourth cousin upgraded.

The difference between groups 01 and 02 is the heart of the Gist Project mystery, because both groups have a core of members whose pretty decent paper trails say they descend from Richard Gist (1683-1741), the only son of the English immigrant Christopher Gist (d. 1690). Group 01's claim is based on descent from Richard's son, Nathaniel Gist (1707-1788). Group 02's claim is based on descent from Nathaniel's (alleged) brother, William (1711-1794). From what I can see, the paper trails are equally good, so obviously something slipped, some form of NPE: sexual indiscretion, informal adoption, simple surname change, something.

Group 01 thus far has only men with the Gist spelling of the surname. Group 02 also includes men who use the variant Guest. None of those with the Guest spelling claims the immigrant Christopher Gist as mdka, and when one runs the whole Gist/Guest Group 02 in the SAPP tool, the tmrca drives things back to about 1100 AD. It is only through separating those with the Gist spelling in Group 02 from those with the Guest spelling that any part of that group gets a tmrca in which Christopher the immigrant could be a shared ancestor. Group 01 doesn't have that issue. That doesn't mean Group 01 has the sole claim on descent from Christopher's son Richard. It just complicates things.

After the former project admin died on 21 October 2018, I was the first one with a connection to the Gist Project to notice, and I did not start noticing until the spring of 2020, when I tried to send him an email and got no answer. I was the one who figured out he had passed away and contacted FTDNA about it.

That just shows you how active that project is, so we'll see if any Big Y-700 orders come out of it anytime soon.

Oh, btw: the former project admin was a pretty sharp guy named Don Sticher. Fortunately for me, he left excellent notes and sent most of them to me back in 2012. I received some updates he made in 2014 and 2015 from another project member. Don's mom was a Guess. Her father's line was R1a and shows up in Group 06. They're not involved in the whole Richard Gist mystery.

rms2
10-04-2020, 02:14 PM
Sorry to continue to carry this thread off on a Gist Project tangent, but since the project's Group 02 is R1b-DF83, it's not totally off topic.

We know from paper trail and DNA evidence that whatever NPE occurred that results in the Group 01/Group 02 mismatch between the alleged y-chromosome descendants of Christopher Gist the immigrant, it is traceable to the level of Generation 2, Christopher's son Richard (1683-1741) and his wife Zipporah Murray.

Well, here is something interesting that might provide a clue. It indicates that the relationship between Richard and Zipporah wasn't all it could or should have been:



This is to certify and give Notice to All Persons whatsoever that I Richard Gist of Baltimore County doe forwarne all manner of persons whatsoever to have any dealings with my wife Zipporah Gist to take or receive any Thing Watsoever upon pretence Whatsoever That is belonging to me or in any wise Whatsoever kind if that person Shall presume to doe that It be their own Peril given under my hand this Aug 1724.


That is from Baltimore County, Maryland, Deeds (I.S. No. H., p. 69, Hall of Records, Annapolis, Maryland), and is quoted on page 8 of the book, Christopher Gist of Maryland and Some of His Descendants, by Jean Muir Dorsey and Maxwell Jay Dorsey.

So, yeah. There you go.

rms2
10-06-2020, 01:18 AM
Sorry, but one more thing, a minor miracle.

One of the guys in Group 01 ordered the Big Y-700 today.

Webb
10-06-2020, 01:48 PM
Sorry, but one more thing, a minor miracle.

One of the guys in Group 01 ordered the Big Y-700 today.

I picked the 67 marker kit and ran the haplogroup predictor and it only comes back R1b. One had U152 as second.

rms2
10-06-2020, 03:06 PM
The upgrade to the Big Y-700 comes for the sample of a man who has been dead for several years. His daughter made the order. I'm praying what FTDNA has in cold storage is enough.