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JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-21-2016, 10:30 AM
Thanks to a post on another thread I've been able to look a little further into my surname origins (Howell, Hoel, Hywel etc.)
I've been vaguely aware of possible links to Brittany but I didn't appreciate until I did more reading how involved Bretons were in the Norman conquest and seemed to have a particular presence around the Welsh Marches (Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Monmouthshire) where most of my ancestry seems to come from. The incidence of the surname in Eastern England is also supposedly due to a Breton presence.
I'm aware of Norman associations with U106 and that Bretons have a "British" ancestry to some extent.
I'm just wondering whether anyone has any knowledge of U106 in Brittany, possibly associated with inter-marriage or alliances with Normans? Just a speculative question really my own U106 could well have an Anglo/Saxon source.
Interesting to note that Howell(s) doesn't appear to be that common outside the areas of Norman influence (in Wales) Thanks. John

12629

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-22-2016, 08:35 AM
Can anyone offer an historical explanation for what appears to be "German/Celtic" YDNA in South Brittany please? Normans?
Full source link below. John

12651

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi4zr7J1rrQAhUBCcAKHYtBCM8QFggqMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Feurope%2Fbenelu x_france_dna_project.shtml&usg=AFQjCNG2L-pFFhrKXtsf1QhiTeQlFtADjQ&sig2=h-WBTpp3-CX_bLTnIchhtA

anglesqueville
11-22-2016, 11:24 AM
Can anyone offer an historical explanation for what appears to be "German/Celtic" YDNA in South Brittany please? Normans?
Full source link below. John

12651

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi4zr7J1rrQAhUBCcAKHYtBCM8QFggqMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Feurope%2Fbenelu x_france_dna_project.shtml&usg=AFQjCNG2L-pFFhrKXtsf1QhiTeQlFtADjQ&sig2=h-WBTpp3-CX_bLTnIchhtA

I have an explanation: this map is just an Eupedia's ... thing (*). Likely ( just a guess, but very likely) adapted from Deniker and Montandon ( around 1890 and 1930 :biggrin1: ). If you know a little french and have some time to spend, you can freely download the "great" book by Montandon :"L'ethnie franšaise": http://www.histoireebook.com/index.php?post/2012/02/26/Montandon-George-L-ethnie-francaise
(*) : was tempted to write bull****, or something like that..

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-22-2016, 01:49 PM
I have an explanation: this map is just an Eupedia's ... thing (*). Likely ( just a guess, but very likely) adapted from Deniker and Montandon ( around 1890 and 1930 :biggrin1: ). If you know a little french and have some time to spend, you can freely download the "great" book by Montandon :"L'ethnie franšaise": http://www.histoireebook.com/index.php?post/2012/02/26/Montandon-George-L-ethnie-francaise
(*) : was tempted to write bull****, or something like that..

Thanks for the reply. I'm afraid my French isn't that great. I will see if I can find anything in English. :) Most likely my U106 is of Anglo/Saxon origin, but the frequency of the surname does seem to have some relationship to Bretons possibly? John

anglesqueville
11-22-2016, 02:23 PM
Thanks for the reply. I'm afraid my French isn't that great. I will see if I can find anything in English. :) Most likely my U106 is of Anglo/Saxon origin, but the frequency of the surname does seem to have some relationship to Bretons possibly? John

You could at least read the maps and their legends. But, in my opinion, not of great interest, just old anthropology ( cephalic indexes, height, hair and eyes pigmentation ). The map you posted has been everywhere for years, especially on those forums where you read words as "nordics", "nordids", "atlantids", "alpins", etc. Don't recall who made it.

razyn
11-22-2016, 02:28 PM
I think it's fairly remarkable how many families, clans, tribes or whatever were found on both sides of the English Channel, both sides of 1066. We know more about the more recent examples, but some examples predate the alleged Norman Conquest by at least centuries. There was a lot of feudal tenancy, marriages among the upper class and so on, that didn't insist on adjoining property lines, being in the same county, or even country -- particularly when what lay between was water. And those upper class types had somebody else along to row the boat, curry the horse, cook the beans and so on. All you really need to explain a U106 Howell family in the Wye valley is one guy on a boat, sometime, that didn't sink.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-22-2016, 05:36 PM
I think it's fairly remarkable how many families, clans, tribes or whatever were found on both sides of the English Channel, both sides of 1066. We know more about the more recent examples, but some examples predate the alleged Norman Conquest by at least centuries. There was a lot of feudal tenancy, marriages among the upper class and so on, that didn't insist on adjoining property lines, being in the same county, or even country -- particularly when what lay between was water. And those upper class types had somebody else along to row the boat, curry the horse, cook the beans and so on. All you really need to explain a U106 Howell family in the Wye valley is one guy on a boat, sometime, that didn't sink.

There were certainly Normans in Herefordshire well before the conquest and they built castles there before 1066:-
" What is known is that King Edward the Confessor (1042-1066) brought many Normans over to England during his reign. One of these was Ralph Mantes, his nephew by his sister Godgifu and Count Drogo of Vexin in the Norman March. King Edward made him an earl before 1050 at the latest, though whether he was earl of Hereford, a province of Earl Godwine or not, is another matter. Ralph installed Norman favourites under his command and they immediately began constructing castles. At least four of these favourites seem to have settled in Herefordshire. They were Osbern Pentecost, who held Burghill and Hope of King Edward's gift, Richard Fitz Scrope who held extensive lands in the north of the shire, Robert Fitz Wymarch who had Thruxton in Archenfield and a certain Hugh who left his name at Howton.

In 1052 the new customs of the Normans provoked an anti-Norman backlash from the English. "

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiP6NSm7rzQAhWsK8AKHUkiBfcQFghBMAc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.castles99.ukprint.com%2FEssay s%2Fherebeac.html&usg=AFQjCNFNKxe95bVAT7uHS_W0SYJO3nto0w&sig2=_oaYtToOGTT_5GW-5v2rdQ

Ralph de Gael, a Breton :- "Ralph was born before 1042, most probably about 1040 in Hereford, as not later than 1060 he attested, in company with other Bretons, a notification at Angers as son of Ralph the Staller."

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjpkpqG8bzQAhVBL8AKHdkFAcMQFgguMAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRalph_ de_Gael&usg=AFQjCNHZ36GXnuGmeLBsEi7L3obnwgOamw&sig2=8Kyjmkuw5ZBWNWb0-y9XeA

As you quite rightly say, these individuals wouldn't have been on their own, they would have needed a retinue and people to build their castles and churches and see to their other needs.


John

razyn
11-22-2016, 06:55 PM
That guy Remfry also did a booklet about Saint Briavels castle, and I bought a copy of it about four years ago. http://www.castles99.ukprint.com/Essays/StBriavels.html

There is a mention on p. 3 of one "Hywel (Hoel) of Caerleon (Carliun)," whose brother had met King John there in 1207. But since the more or less adjacent Hewellsfield was already in the Domesday Book about 40 years earlier, I'm not too excited about this particular Hywel. I just think it's a locally prominent name, that might logically have given rise to the surname Hulin, well known in that immediate vicinity in the 13th century and thereafter. (Hulin was more numerous there than elsewhere in the UK in the 1881 census.) Our bunch in colonial Virginia and North Carolina spell it several ways, but several of us have matched one another with YDNA (R1b>DF27>Z209>CTS4065>FGC15748). We have yet to match anybody in the UK, though. The one Hulin we have tested (of Clevedon, Somerset, but from a St. Briavels family) doesn't match us; his haplogroup is G-M201. He has a longer pedigree, but we have a lot of branches, whose MRCA this side of the pond is an adult in VA in 1669. We've been reasonably prolific, with our spouses and a few other neighbors, but inconsistent spellers of the surname, over here.

corner
11-23-2016, 12:42 PM
Thanks to a post on another thread I've been able to look a little further into my surname origins (Howell, Hoel, Hywel etc.)
I've been vaguely aware of possible links to Brittany but I didn't appreciate until I did more reading how involved Bretons were in the Norman conquest and seemed to have a particular presence around the Welsh Marches (Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Monmouthshire) where most of my ancestry seems to come from. The incidence of the surname in Eastern England is also supposedly due to a Breton presence.
I'm aware of Norman associations with U106 and that Bretons have a "British" ancestry to some extent.
I'm just wondering whether anyone has any knowledge of U106 in Brittany, possibly associated with inter-marriage or alliances with Normans? Just a speculative question really my own U106 could well have an Anglo/Saxon source.
Interesting to note that Howell(s) doesn't appear to be that common outside the areas of Norman influence (in Wales) Thanks. John

12629Hello John, have you tested any STRs? It can sometimes help depending on the number and closeness (genetic distance) of hi-res matches you subsequently get. There are a lot of kits on FTDNA projects with STRs but no SNPs. Many relatively recently related STR 'clusters' now have a good idea of the SNP-defined subclades they belong to through NGS testing, but I am not as familiar with U106.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-23-2016, 01:05 PM
That guy Remfry also did a booklet about Saint Briavels castle, and I bought a copy of it about four years ago. http://www.castles99.ukprint.com/Essays/StBriavels.html

There is a mention on p. 3 of one "Hywel (Hoel) of Caerleon (Carliun)," whose brother had met King John there in 1207. But since the more or less adjacent Hewellsfield was already in the Domesday Book about 40 years earlier, I'm not too excited about this particular Hywel. I just think it's a locally prominent name, that might logically have given rise to the surname Hulin, well known in that immediate vicinity in the 13th century and thereafter. (Hulin was more numerous there than elsewhere in the UK in the 1881 census.) Our bunch in colonial Virginia and North Carolina spell it several ways, but several of us have matched one another with YDNA (R1b>DF27>Z209>CTS4065>FGC15748). We have yet to match anybody in the UK, though. The one Hulin we have tested (of Clevedon, Somerset, but from a St. Briavels family) doesn't match us; his haplogroup is G-M201. He has a longer pedigree, but we have a lot of branches, whose MRCA this side of the pond is an adult in VA in 1669. We've been reasonably prolific, with our spouses and a few other neighbors, but inconsistent spellers of the surname, over here.

I've found out a little more. Iain McDonald says that U106 is probably around less than 6% in Brittany. However, from some basic reading I've done it seems it is possible you could have a Breton with Frank ancestry. I also appear to have a fairly close match in Devon which is mentioned as another area which was settled by Bretons. Of course all this is circumstantial and there are other possibilities.
My own group is Z326 (S11136) and Iain McDonald who I think most people would recognise as a leading Authority on U106 was kind enough to comment:-
"Z326 is a bit of a funny one. It's an old SNP, but it doesn't fall into the two "Celtic" or "Germanic" classifications that most U106 clades seem to. It has a big base in Germany, and I suspect that's where it came from, some time around 1300 BC. The age of Z326 has moved around recently and I'm still working out exactly what this means. But there's certainly quite a lot of opportunities for Z326 to reach the British Isles from Germany from 1300 BC."
I will be very interested to see what he has to say on this in future. I wonder if the LIVEdna results might give me a clue? :) John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-23-2016, 01:15 PM
Hello John, have you tested any STRs? It can sometimes help depending on the number and closeness (genetic distance) of hi-res matches you subsequently get. There are a lot of kits on FTDNA projects with STRs but no SNPs. Many relatively recently related STR 'clusters' now have a good idea of the SNP-defined subclades they belong to through NGS testing, but I am not as familiar with U106.

I've only done a Family Finder Test with FTDNA. I did Chromo 2 previously and now I've been tempted by the LIVEdna test.
I have been considering further tests, but as my knowledge of DNA is limited, I'm not sure I will be up to interpreting what the results may tell me. I've been pondering BigY or Y Elite which is what the U106 project group seems keen on, but quite expensive if I can't be sure what I will get out of it. :) John