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rms2
11-26-2016, 06:48 PM
I discovered a new match at Ancestry DNA today whose connection to me is that we share an ancestor in my mother's surname line who is my 5th great grandfather and her 7th great grandfather. That makes us 6th cousins twice removed. Ancestry predicted, based on the dna test results, that we are in the range of 5th-8th cousins. Ancestry was right. Our shared ancestor is Nathaniel Gist, born about 1707 in Baltimore County, Maryland. He died sometime after 1787 in what is now eastern Tennessee but was at that time part of western North Carolina.

Nathaniel and his brother Christopher were fairly famous frontier scouts and personal friends of George Washington. My ancestor Nathaniel is also said to have been the father of Sequoyah by the Indian maiden Wut-teh, but I don't know whether or not that is true. It's a matter of some mystery and controversy.

This is the kind of thing that pops every now and then that makes this stuff really interesting.

jeanL
11-26-2016, 07:07 PM
So is Sequoyah part of your Ancestral makeup? Or is she a side branch?

J1 DYS388=13
11-26-2016, 07:09 PM
Gist is a surname from the southwest in England. http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Map.aspx?name=GIST&year=1881&altyear=1998&country=GB&type=name

rms2
11-26-2016, 07:28 PM
So is Sequoyah part of your Ancestral makeup? Or is she a side branch?

My line comes from Nathaniel's wife Mary Howard. Apparently Sequoyah, if he is Nathaniel son, was also the son of the Cherokee maiden Wut-teh. Sequoyah was also known as George Gist, but there is some controversy about who his father was.

estevard
11-26-2016, 10:11 PM
... That makes us 6th cousins twice removed. Ancestry predicted, based on the dna test results, that we are in the range of 5th-8th cousins. Ancestry was right. ...

Impressive. Do you mind revealing how many cMs Ancestry gave the match? My most distant match supported by a paper trail on each side is with a fifth cousin. We share common ancestors who were married in Hampshire, England, in 1787. According to AncestryDNA our match is 6.3 cMs over 1 segment.

rms2
11-26-2016, 10:36 PM
Impressive. Do you mind revealing how many cMs Ancestry gave the match? My most distant match supported by a paper trail on each side is with a fifth cousin. We share common ancestors who were married in Hampshire, England, in 1787. According to AncestryDNA our match is 6.3 cMs over 1 segment.

Honestly, I did not know Ancestry reveals how many cMs one shares with his matches. I know Family Finder does that. How does one access that information?

estevard
11-26-2016, 10:44 PM
Honestly, I did not know Ancestry reveals how many cMs one shares with his matches. I know Family Finder does that. How does one access that information?

The i's have it. Hope this explains:


12763

Abd.H
11-26-2016, 10:46 PM
Honestly, I did not know Ancestry reveals how many cMs one shares with his matches. I know Family Finder does that. How does one access that information?

Just Press the blue exclamation mark and you will see it12764

rms2
11-26-2016, 10:48 PM
Just Press the blue exclamation mark and you will see it12764

Thanks!

Here it is:



Amount of Shared DNA
12.3 centimorgans shared across 2 DNA segments

Abd.H
11-26-2016, 11:11 PM
Amount of Shared DNA
12.3 centimorgans shared across 2 DNA segments:
It is good to have Ancestry test in this case
If it was in FTDNA it wouldn't be a match
in FTDNA the match should share at least 20 centimorgans with at least one shared segment at 7 centimorgans or larger

rms2
11-26-2016, 11:17 PM
Thanks for the info on the cMs. I feel like a dummy that I did not find that before.

It's interesting, because I have another match with someone with only my surname in common in her pedigree, and I speculate that she is a 7th cousin. Here's what Ancestry says about our match in terms of cMs:



Amount of Shared DNA

17.4 centimorgans shared across 1 DNA segment


I don't have quite the paper trail on my surname line as I do on my mother's surname line, so that one is harder to pin down, but here's a graphic of my guesswork on it.

12765

That one is reinforced by a couple of my y-dna matches. I have two 111-marker matches with descendants of Benjamin Stevens Sr. (106/111 and 104/111).

rms2
11-27-2016, 02:19 PM
Regarding the Nathaniel Gist match that is the original topic of this thread, I discovered this morning that I also match the woman's mother (12.3 cMs over 2 segments), and two of her cousins (11.7 cMs over 1 segment and 11.0 cMs over 1 segment).

I also have a number of more substantial matches with people who share descent from Nathaniel's son Joseph Gist (my 4th great grandfather, born 1748) with me as our most recent common ancestor. I am also in one of Ancestry's circles for Joseph's son, Joseph (b. 1789, my third great grandfather).

I need to find a male Gist in this line and have him y-dna tested. Sadly, I did not get a y-dna test from my mom's brother before he passed away, and he was her only brother.

rms2
11-27-2016, 03:39 PM
I haven't done much with my mother's line, since it has a pretty good paper trail back to the immigrant, Christopher Gist, who came from England to Baltimore sometime before 1679. Anyway, I have been looking into it further at Ancestry and found another match who shares no Gist ancestors with me more recent than my 5th great grandfather Nathaniel Gist (mentioned in the OP). The match is 13.8 cMs across 2 segments. We are 6th cousins once removed. Her surname is actually Gist, and that is the only surname common to both our pedigrees. Apparently she has a living brother, so I am trying to see if he has done or will do a y-dna test with FTDNA.

I also found a match ("22.8 centimorgans shared across 1 DNA segment") who is descended from the brother of my second great grandfather, Levi Gist. Her ancestor is James Gist. She currently has him listed as her most distant known Gist ancestor, but she's in luck, because I can supply the info to extend that line back to the immigrant (as I mentioned above). We are 4th cousins, since we share the same 3rd great grandfather. Once she updates her pedigree, she should appear in Ancestry's Joseph Gist circle, of which I am already a member.

Fun stuff. Wish my Stevens line was moving this well and this easily.

jeanL
11-27-2016, 04:11 PM
Richard, I know you mentioned before you had family lore about Native American ancestry. I also noticed that you Ancestry DNA gave you some Finnish/Russian, albeit as a trace region. Do you score Native American in any of the GEDMATCH/Third-Party Calculators? Does your father score? I've seem the Native American(or at least part of it) expressing itself as Russian/Finnish in Ancestry DNA, which is why I ask?

I have also seen a friend of mine who is of Pennsylvania German ancestry and also claims he has distant Native Ancestry. 23andme gave him 99.9% European with some 0.1% Unassigned. But when I ran his genome on GEDMATCH by chromosome I consistently got Native American on Chromosomes 13 and 9 if I recall correctly. Yet his genome wide overall Native American contribution on GEDMATCH was in the noise range (i.e. <1%). On the other hand there is this video of this adopted "blonde" girl on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXLnUdG_MJU) who scores 4% Native American on Ancestry DNA, so I guess if is sufficiently big it does get picked up.

rms2
11-27-2016, 04:28 PM
Richard, I know you mentioned before you had family lore about Native American ancestry. I also noticed that you Ancestry DNA gave you some Finnish/Russian, albeit as a trace region. Do you score Native American in any of the GEDMATCH/Third-Party Calculators? Does your father score? I've seem the Native American(or at least part of it) expressing itself as Russian/Finnish in Ancestry DNA, which is why I ask?

I have also seen a friend of mine who is of Pennsylvania German ancestry and also claims he has distant Native Ancestry. 23andme gave him 99.9% European with some 0.1% Unassigned. But when I ran his genome on GEDMATCH by chromosome I consistently got Native American on Chromosomes 13 and 9 if I recall correctly. Yet his genome wide overall Native American contribution on GEDMATCH was in the noise range (i.e. <1%). On the other hand there is this video of this adopted "blonde" girl on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXLnUdG_MJU) who scores 4% Native American on Ancestry DNA, so I guess if is sufficiently big it does get picked up.

No, not that I have ever noticed. Neither my dad nor my mom get any sort of Native American result either, but the family legend was that one of my maternal great grandmothers was "half Indian". Had that been true, I think both my mother and I would be showing some Native American. The supposed "half Indian" great grandmother is also my most distant known mtDNA ancestor.

Here is her photo. I think the high cheekbones and dark hair gave rise to the Amerindian family legend.

12776

Kiln
11-27-2016, 04:37 PM
Richard, I know you mentioned before you had family lore about Native American ancestry. I also noticed that you Ancestry DNA gave you some Finnish/Russian, albeit as a trace region. Do you score Native American in any of the GEDMATCH/Third-Party Calculators? Does your father score? I've seem the Native American(or at least part of it) expressing itself as Russian/Finnish in Ancestry DNA, which is why I ask?

I have also seen a friend of mine who is of Pennsylvania German ancestry and also claims he has distant Native Ancestry. 23andme gave him 99.9% European with some 0.1% Unassigned. But when I ran his genome on GEDMATCH by chromosome I consistently got Native American on Chromosomes 13 and 9 if I recall correctly. Yet his genome wide overall Native American contribution on GEDMATCH was in the noise range (i.e. <1%). On the other hand there is this video of this adopted "blonde" girl on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXLnUdG_MJU) who scores 4% Native American on Ancestry DNA, so I guess if is sufficiently big it does get picked up.


My second great grandmother according to family lore was supposed to be NA, however I've found a census sheet she filled out as "white".

I score between 1 & 3% NA/SE Asian on most calculators.

jeanL
11-27-2016, 05:11 PM
No, not that I have ever noticed. Neither my dad nor my mom get any sort of Native American result either, but the family legend was that one of my maternal great grandmothers was "half Indian". Had that been true, I think both my mother and I would be showing some Native American. The supposed "half Indian" great grandmother is also my most distant known mtDNA ancestor.

Here is her photo. I think the high cheekbones and dark hair gave rise to the Amerindian family legend.


Yeah if your maternal great-grandmother was "half-indian", then that would put you somewhere on the 6.25% Native American range and one of your parents in the 12.5% range. Odds are that she had some distant(if any) native American ancestry. Judging by the picture, she doesn't look Native at all, she looks European to me.

Another thing to take into account is for example that DNA doesn't recombine in a way that you get exactly 1/4 of your ancestry from each grandparent. For example my paternal grandmother is ~5% Native American and I'm about 3.7% Native American (3.9% total Native American +Broadly Native and East Asian NA+B_NA_EA on 23andme) or 4%(Ancestry) Native American. Most of it, comes directly from my grandmother. For example using the rule of diving by 4 for grandparents I should have gotten ~1.975%(1.75% Native American) NA+B-NA-EA from my paternal side and 0.7%(0.6% Native American) NA+B_NA_EA from my Maternal side for a total of 2.675%(2.35% Native American) NA+B_NA_EA, round it up to 2.7% NA+EA. Instead my actual percentage is 3.9% NA+EA with 3.7% being Native American and 0.2% being Broadly Native American and East Asian. On the parents breakdown it gives me 0.6% Native American and <0.1% Broadly Native and East Asian from my mother side, so very close to the expected value of 0.7%, but on my father's side I inherited 3.1% Native American and 0.1% Broadly Native plus East Asian, so if we round up the 1.75% to 1.8% expected Native American then I actually got 1.3% more than expected genealogically. This can be due to a number of causes, I haven't tested my sister, but it could be that some of those regions are under selection, or it could be random, perhaps she barely got any Native American whereas I got most of it, who knows. Also looks don't really tell much, even though my paternal grandmother is 5.3% Native American all of the typical skin color mutations she carries the European versions of it, she also has light eyes and even carries one of the MC1R rs1805005 heterozygous mutation, she lacks any of the EDAR mutations, and her HLA is European, thus the functional variants and phenotypical variants are European.

I guess when the admixture admixture event is recent, then you can expect the halving process. But when it is more distant, as the admixing component gets smaller and smaller (i.e. <5%) then it will either linger and be overexpressed in some descendants or completely disappear in others. I haven't been able to trace the Native American genealogically unfortunately, so it's rather frustrating.

rms2
11-28-2016, 12:39 PM
The woman about whom the Amerindian legend developed in my family was my mother's maternal grandmother, Nora Lancaster (married surname: Morris). She and my mother's grandfather (Sidney Morris) died young, leaving their kids, including my maternal grandmother, orphans. They did not really know their parents, but they had that photo of their mother. I suspect someone looked at it, saw the high cheekbones and the dark hair, remarked that, "She looks half Indian to me!", and the legend was born.

My grandmother (Nora's daughter) and her siblings were blond haired and blue eyed. My grandmother had long blond hair until she died, at age 81, and she never used hair dye. She looked like a Swede.

Honestly, I don't think there ever was anything to that legend, even in terms of remote Native American ancestry. I was kind of hoping there was, but now I really doubt it.

rms2
11-29-2016, 03:39 PM
I have to correct an error I made. In the original and subsequent posts, I confused my ancestor, Nathaniel Gist, born 1707, with his nephew, Nathaniel Gist, born 1733. The younger Nathaniel is the son of my Nathaniel's brother Christopher. It is the younger Nathaniel who is alleged to be the father of Sequoyah, rather than my ancestor Nathaniel.

Sorry about that.

C J Wyatt III
11-29-2016, 05:23 PM
I have to correct an error I made. In the original and subsequent posts, I confused my ancestor, Nathaniel Gist, born 1707, with his nephew, Nathaniel Gist, born 1733. The younger Nathaniel is the son of my Nathaniel's brother Christopher. It is the younger Nathaniel who is alleged to be the father of Sequoyah, rather than my ancestor Nathaniel.

Sorry about that.

Hey, it's still pretty neat to be cousins, even if it is a generation further back to the common ancestor.

If anyone is not familiar with Sequoyah, here is a bit of information:

http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/history-archaeology/sequoyah-ca-1770-ca-1840

Jack

rms2
11-29-2016, 06:31 PM
I have to correct an error I made. In the original and subsequent posts, I confused my ancestor, Nathaniel Gist, born 1707, with his nephew, Nathaniel Gist, born 1733. The younger Nathaniel is the son of my Nathaniel's brother Christopher. It is the younger Nathaniel who is alleged to be the father of Sequoyah, rather than my ancestor Nathaniel.

Sorry about that.

I wanted to add that the conflation of my Nathaniel with his nephew and namesake does not alter the rest of the information, just the part about Sequoyah.