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View Full Version : J2a1b1a/J2a4b1a and possible connection to Italy/Greece/Anatolia? (Bronze Age)



Shaquille
11-27-2016, 01:57 PM
Hey Guys, I am asking for some information regarding J-L556 a.k.a J2a1b1a (According to Isogg Ydna tree 2016). I contacted a admin who is from the J2 project on FTDNA, and who has a whole blog dedicated on J2 in the Netherlands. He told me that he doesnt know what the origin is, because nobody studied my haplogroup and its very 'young' According to another project on FTDNA, there are people who are also J-L556, but yet they call it J2a4b1a (?) But I already have proof that I do not have Jewish ancestry. So I am confused about whether J-L556 in 2016 is considered to be either J2a1b1a or J2a4b1a. Hell on a Ftdna project about J2 (although it says J2 arab) it says thats it appears to be a minor and infrequent subclade, and that it has been found in Konya, Turkey less than <1%.

So I opened a thread in Eupedia about J2a1b1a since I cant find anything about that specific subclade regarding the origin of it, someone replied and told me that its a descendant of J2a1-M67 (mostly common subclade in the Caucasus (Vainakhs, Ingushs, Chechens, Georgians, Ossetians, Balkars) and Levant (Lebanese and Jews), also common in western India, Arabian Peninsula, and Anatolia (esp North-West part) and in Europe in Greece (esp. Crete), Italy (esp. Marche and Abruzzo) and Iberia. And its closest ancestor is J2a1-M92.

So I and that user on Eupedia were searching about J2a1b1a on the internet, the only thing we found is that J-L556 is very old. And he said since I do not have Jewish ancestors it was safe to say that this explanation applies:

Middle-Eastern and European J2a: from Kura-Araxes to the Greeks and RomansIt is very likely that J2a, J1 and G2a were the three dominant male lineages the Early Bronze Age Kura-Araxes culture, which expanded from the South Caucasus to eastern Anatolia, northern Mesopotamia and the western Iran. From then on, J2 men would have definitely have represented a sizeable portion of the population of Bronze and Iron Age civilizations such as the Hurrians, the Assyrians or the Hittites. It is very possible that bronze technology spread from the South Caucasus across the Iranian plateau until the Indus Valley, giving rise to the Harappan Civilisation (see below).The high incidence of J2a in Italy is owed in great part to the migration of the Etruscans from western Anatolia to central and northern Italy, and to the Greek colonisation of southern Italy. Immigration from the eastern Mediterranean to Rome during the Roman Empire, then from Anatolia, Thrace and Greece during the Byzantine period (particularly in north-eastern Italy) further increased the incidence of J2 in the peninsula.The Phoenicians, Jews, Greeks and Romans all contributed to the presence of J2a in Iberia. The particularly strong frequency of J2a and other Near Eastern haplogroups (J1, E1b1b, T) in the south of the Iberian peninsula, suggest that the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians played a more decisive role than other peoples. This makes sense considering that they were the first to arrive, founded the greatest number of cities (including Gadir/Cadiz, Iberia's oldest city), and their settlements match almost exactly the zone where J2 is found at a higher frequency in southern Andalusia.The Romans probably helped spread haplogroup J2 within their borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%), which bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire (once concessions are made for the Germanic invasions that appear to have lowered the frequency of J2 between Belgium and Switzerland).The highest concentrations of J2a in Europe are found in Crete (32% of the population) and Calabria (26%). J2a-M319, one of the principal J2 subclades in Greece, Italy and Western Europe, reaches is maximum frequency in Crete (6-9%).

So what do you guys think?? I can rule the Jewish connection out, since I do not have any Jewish ancestry. It looks like my paternal haplogroup either entered the Netherlands via Italy or Greece, and from that point via Western Anatolia. Do not know for sure, please let me know your thoughts. The only thing I know is that its very old and its a descendant of J2a1-M67, but I do not anything about my own specific subclade, J2a1b1a (to some people its even J2a4b1a). So you see here I am very confused. I want to know where my exact subclade originated.

I am of Aruban and Curacaon descent.

With regards,

Shaquille.

Sources:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/j2-arab/
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpJ.html
http://www.wirthdna.com
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml#J2a_Mediterranean

Anabasis
11-27-2016, 03:09 PM
If you sure that you are L556 then i can say that its eastern and central european branch of M92 which is aged 5.5k years.
https://yfull.com/tree/J-L556/

JaG
11-27-2016, 05:32 PM
Hey Shaquille,

what test have you take? If your was tested by Geno, then your L556 result (and many others) is likely false.

L556 group is predominantly Ashkenazi Jewish. One member is Puerto-Rican with no known Jewish ancestry, but his direct paternal line is undoubtedly Jewish.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/wirth/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/WIRTHGROUP/

The most recent common ancestor of the group lived about 1100 years ago likely in Western or Southern Europe.

Principe
11-27-2016, 09:37 PM
Hey Guys, I am asking for some information regarding J-L556 a.k.a J2a1b1a (According to Isogg Ydna tree 2016). I contacted a admin who is from the J2 project on FTDNA, and who has a whole blog dedicated on J2 in the Netherlands. He told me that he doesnt know what the origin is, because nobody studied my haplogroup and its very 'young' According to another project on FTDNA, there are people who are also J-L556, but yet they call it J2a4b1a (?) But I already have proof that I do not have Jewish ancestry. So I am confused about whether J-L556 in 2016 is considered to be either J2a1b1a or J2a4b1a. Hell on a Ftdna project about J2 (although it says J2 arab) it says thats it appears to be a minor and infrequent subclade, and that it has been found in Konya, Turkey less than <1%.

So I opened a thread in Eupedia about J2a1b1a since I cant find anything about that specific subclade regarding the origin of it, someone replied and told me that its a descendant of J2a1-M67 (mostly common subclade in the Caucasus (Vainakhs, Ingushs, Chechens, Georgians, Ossetians, Balkars) and Levant (Lebanese and Jews), also common in western India, Arabian Peninsula, and Anatolia (esp North-West part) and in Europe in Greece (esp. Crete), Italy (esp. Marche and Abruzzo) and Iberia. And its closest ancestor is J2a1-M92.

So I and that user on Eupedia were searching about J2a1b1a on the internet, the only thing we found is that J-L556 is very old. And he said since I do not have Jewish ancestors it was safe to say that this explanation applies:

Middle-Eastern and European J2a: from Kura-Araxes to the Greeks and RomansIt is very likely that J2a, J1 and G2a were the three dominant male lineages the Early Bronze Age Kura-Araxes culture, which expanded from the South Caucasus to eastern Anatolia, northern Mesopotamia and the western Iran. From then on, J2 men would have definitely have represented a sizeable portion of the population of Bronze and Iron Age civilizations such as the Hurrians, the Assyrians or the Hittites. It is very possible that bronze technology spread from the South Caucasus across the Iranian plateau until the Indus Valley, giving rise to the Harappan Civilisation (see below).The high incidence of J2a in Italy is owed in great part to the migration of the Etruscans from western Anatolia to central and northern Italy, and to the Greek colonisation of southern Italy. Immigration from the eastern Mediterranean to Rome during the Roman Empire, then from Anatolia, Thrace and Greece during the Byzantine period (particularly in north-eastern Italy) further increased the incidence of J2 in the peninsula.The Phoenicians, Jews, Greeks and Romans all contributed to the presence of J2a in Iberia. The particularly strong frequency of J2a and other Near Eastern haplogroups (J1, E1b1b, T) in the south of the Iberian peninsula, suggest that the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians played a more decisive role than other peoples. This makes sense considering that they were the first to arrive, founded the greatest number of cities (including Gadir/Cadiz, Iberia's oldest city), and their settlements match almost exactly the zone where J2 is found at a higher frequency in southern Andalusia.The Romans probably helped spread haplogroup J2 within their borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%), which bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire (once concessions are made for the Germanic invasions that appear to have lowered the frequency of J2 between Belgium and Switzerland).The highest concentrations of J2a in Europe are found in Crete (32% of the population) and Calabria (26%). J2a-M319, one of the principal J2 subclades in Greece, Italy and Western Europe, reaches is maximum frequency in Crete (6-9%).

So what do you guys think?? I can rule the Jewish connection out, since I do not have any Jewish ancestry. It looks like my paternal haplogroup either entered the Netherlands via Italy or Greece, and from that point via Western Anatolia. Do not know for sure, please let me know your thoughts. The only thing I know is that its very old and its a descendant of J2a1-M67, but I do not anything about my own specific subclade, J2a1b1a (to some people its even J2a4b1a). So you see here I am very confused. I want to know where my exact subclade originated.

I am of Aruban and Curacaon descent.

With regards,

Shaquille.

Sources:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/j2-arab/
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpJ.html
http://www.wirthdna.com
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml#J2a_Mediterranean

Dear Shaquille,

Your line like mine is vastly Jewish, The Z482 and L556 are the largest J2a Jewish lineages and both are under M67 parent clade, I would not rule it out yet for the following reasons, Portugese Jews went to the Netherlands and all of its territories, there was periods of conversion, your line could have converted 400 years ago and you simply don't know or your family, read up on the Portugese Jews and the Dutch territories as it might be useful, hopefully this helps.

Your line does not signify Greek colonization,as there are no Greeks with your subclade at the moment, there are couple of Italians with an upstream of your subclade, but I am not sure if they tested further, in terms of possible origin at one point your J-L556 ancestor or its upstreams were in Anatolia (very likely) around the Cilicia and Cappadocia region which from there they entered Syria and Levant, if your line is not Jewish it is most likely Levantine (Syrian, Phoenician, Ugarite, maybe Cypriot, etc...) I would look into this region as well, it could have can into Rome and from there as a Legionary or settler in the Netherlands? This would be an alternative to Jewish possibility.

To know for sure, the best way to find out would be BigY and then transferring your results to Yfull, for now the best options is starting to read up on the two things I suggested.

Best of luck with your research

Shaquille
11-28-2016, 07:12 AM
Hey Shaquille,

what test have you take? If your was tested by Geno, then your L556 result (and many others) is likely false.

L556 group is predominantly Ashkenazi Jewish. One member is Puerto-Rican with no known Jewish ancestry, but his direct paternal line is undoubtedly Jewish.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/wirth/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/WIRTHGROUP/

The most recent common ancestor of the group lived about 1100 years ago likely in Western or Southern Europe.

Yes I transfered my geno results to FTDNA, why is it false?

Shaquille
11-28-2016, 08:02 AM
Dear Shaquille,

Your line like mine is vastly Jewish, The Z482 and L556 are the largest J2a Jewish lineages and both are under M67 parent clade, I would not rule it out yet for the following reasons, Portugese Jews went to the Netherlands and all of its territories, there was periods of conversion, your line could have converted 400 years ago and you simply don't know or your family, read up on the Portugese Jews and the Dutch territories as it might be useful, hopefully this helps.

Your line does not signify Greek colonization,as there are no Greeks with your subclade at the moment, there are couple of Italians with an upstream of your subclade, but I am not sure if they tested further, in terms of possible origin at one point your J-L556 ancestor or its upstreams were in Anatolia (very likely) around the Cilicia and Cappadocia region which from there they entered Syria and Levant, if your line is not Jewish it is most likely Levantine (Syrian, Phoenician, Ugarite, maybe Cypriot, etc...) I would look into this region as well, it could have can into Rome and from there as a Legionary or settler in the Netherlands? This would be an alternative to Jewish possibility.

To know for sure, the best way to find out would be BigY and then transferring your results to Yfull, for now the best options is starting to read up on the two things I suggested.

Best of luck with your research

How much doesn the BigY costs? I already spend more than 300 euros on dna tests (23andme 169 euro + Nat geo test which costed me 200 euro). And now I am told that my J-L556 is most likely fake, I am confused.

JaG
11-28-2016, 02:59 PM
Both 23andme and Natgeo use Illumina chip technology, which is very problematic for Y-DNA testing. 23andme takes very conservative approach while testing and reporting few hundreds reliable Y-SNPs results. But Natgeo/FTDNA tests many thousands Y-SNPs and reports just everything (or at least under very low QA threshold). So output of Geno test includes many hundreds of unreliable and even false Y-SNPs results.
I looked briefly at transferred results of Aruba/Curaçao person in J2-M172 project (I suppose they're your). It looks like that assignment to J2a is right, but downstream of it there're just few mutually exclusive results from different brunches of J2a. I find no familiar SNPs of PF4610 or L26 or M67 or M92 levels. There also some positive results for non-J2a SNPs, like from J1 or L etc., but that's usual with Geno transfer. I'm convinced you are negative for L556 and likely negative for upper levels M92, Z500, M67. Someone familiar with Geno output should check manually your raw file results including negative SNPs to make conclusive assignment, and first of all it's Natgeo team which sell those tests.

Shaquille
11-28-2016, 03:26 PM
Both 23andme and Natgeo use Illumina chip technology, which is very problematic for Y-DNA testing. 23andme takes very conservative approach while testing and reporting few hundreds reliable Y-SNPs results. But Natgeo/FTDNA tests many thousands Y-SNPs and reports just everything (or at least under very low QA threshold). So output of Geno test includes many hundreds of unreliable and even false Y-SNPs results.
I looked briefly at transferred results of Aruba/Curaçao person in J2-M172 project (I suppose they're your). It looks like that assignment to J2a is right, but downstream of it there're just few mutually exclusive results from different brunches of J2a. I find no familiar SNPs of PF4610 or L26 or M67 or M92 levels. There also some positive results for non-J2a SNPs, like from J1 or L etc., but that's usual with Geno transfer. I'm convinced you are negative for L556 and likely negative for upper levels M92, Z500, M67. Someone familiar with Geno output should check manually your raw file results including negative SNPs to make conclusive assignment, and first of all it's Natgeo team which sell those tests.

So If I am not J-L556, and I am not M92, Z500 or M67. But yet I am fron the J2a branch. Than what am I?

vettor
11-28-2016, 06:00 PM
Both 23andme and Natgeo use Illumina chip technology, which is very problematic for Y-DNA testing. 23andme takes very conservative approach while testing and reporting few hundreds reliable Y-SNPs results. But Natgeo/FTDNA tests many thousands Y-SNPs and reports just everything (or at least under very low QA threshold). So output of Geno test includes many hundreds of unreliable and even false Y-SNPs results.
I looked briefly at transferred results of Aruba/Curaçao person in J2-M172 project (I suppose they're your). It looks like that assignment to J2a is right, but downstream of it there're just few mutually exclusive results from different brunches of J2a. I find no familiar SNPs of PF4610 or L26 or M67 or M92 levels. There also some positive results for non-J2a SNPs, like from J1 or L etc., but that's usual with Geno transfer. I'm convinced you are negative for L556 and likely negative for upper levels M92, Z500, M67. Someone familiar with Geno output should check manually your raw file results including negative SNPs to make conclusive assignment, and first of all it's Natgeo team which sell those tests.

Natgeno is tested in ftdna labs........so ftdna is also wrong/fake in data ?!?

JaG
11-28-2016, 06:49 PM
Natgeno is tested in ftdna labs........so ftdna is also wrong/fake in data ?!?

AFAIK, FTDNA is a subcontractor, so for me it's not responsible for choice of technology and array of SNPs tested, but Natgeo is. Customer shouldn't care about subcontractor of memory for a Dell laptop or touchscreen for a iphone or brake pads for a Toyota car.

Yet FTDNA is responsible for terrible presentation of transferred results and their wrong assignment to branches on its own Y-tree.

Shaquille
11-29-2016, 06:50 AM
AFAIK, FTDNA is a subcontractor, so for me it's not responsible for choice of technology and array of SNPs tested, but Natgeo is. Customer shouldn't care about subcontractor of memory for a Dell laptop or touchscreen for a iphone or brake pads for a Toyota car.

Yet FTDNA is responsible for terrible presentation of transferred results and their wrong assignment to branches on its own Y-tree.

Do you know which subclade I may be? And do you know someone who is familiar with Geno output?

vettor
11-30-2016, 05:15 PM
AFAIK, FTDNA is a subcontractor, so for me it's not responsible for choice of technology and array of SNPs tested, but Natgeo is. Customer shouldn't care about subcontractor of memory for a Dell laptop or touchscreen for a iphone or brake pads for a Toyota car.

Yet FTDNA is responsible for terrible presentation of transferred results and their wrong assignment to branches on its own Y-tree.

a "supplying parts" scenario as per your example ........is completely different than having a "subcontrator" doing the work.

Natgeno gave the work to ftdna to do and not "supply" any " parts" for Natgeno ...............regardless of what natgeno asked ftdna in what parts to test, the actual test must have been are flawed ............and then the funny thing is that ftdna accept these so called "fake/flawed" results into their database ................garbage in, garbage out

JaG
11-30-2016, 08:19 PM
A customer buys a Geno test from Natgeo as a Natgeo's product and has no idea and doesn't care which lab proceeds that test. FTDNA's lab runs that test exactly according technological routine.
So, you says that when a physician send a patient to some advanced medical test and fails to properly analyze its output, then a lab that proceeded it perfectly by all technological standards is to be blamed?
FTDNA is responsible to Natgeo for technological quality of output but not for final product presented to a customer.
Transferred results are another issue, but money are paid by a customer to Natgeo for properly carried analysis and not for a list of about 800,000 snp calls extracted by FTDNA.