L-SK1414 (L1b2c)

[A Norfolk L-M20]

One possibility how L-SK1414 may have reached England?

https://paulbrooker.posthaven.com/was-my-y-ancestor-an-baloch-lascar

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Thanks to Anabasis for alerting me. A new L-SK1414 has been identified by FT-DNA Big Y. Only 50 novel SNPS shared with me, but the tester is the first "other" SK1414 identified on FT-DNA by Big Y. The ethnicity of this sample is Druze. That now puts SK1414 in England, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Syria? SK1414 is starting to look old.

[GarethH]

Thanks to Anabasis for alerting me. A new L-SK1414 has been identified by FT-DNA Big Y. Only 50 novel SNPS shared with me, but the tester is the first "other" SK1414 identified on FT-DNA by Big Y. The ethnicity of this sample is Druze. That now puts SK1414 in England, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Syria? SK1414 is starting to look old.

Thanks for alerting me! This is one of several interesting Druze Big Y tested kits. We also have a T-L490 (probably L206+ M70-) whose TMRCA with the rest of T1 is approx. 20,000 years ago.

[jesus]

The baloch regions in Pakistan were isolated from British control(mostly) till the that last few decades of the 1800s. As far as I know, the number of baloch serving in the British Indian army was pretty low to non existent. I checked your admixtire results and your results look pretty typical for an Englishman(if you had a full balochi ancestor in the last 100-150 years, it would show up in admixture). It's probably medieval or at least 500-400 years old.

[Anabasis]

Thanks for alerting me! This is one of several interesting Druze Big Y tested kits. We also have a T-L490 (probably L206+ M70-) whose TMRCA with the rest of T1 is approx. 20,000 years ago.

Gareth is this sample member of L project?

[GarethH]

Gareth is this sample member of L project?

No, otherwise I would have found out when the results were released yesterday. I will try to contact the kit administrator.

[GarethH]

Thanks to Anabasis for alerting me. A new L-SK1414 has been identified by FT-DNA Big Y. Only 50 novel SNPS shared with me, but the tester is the first "other" SK1414 identified on FT-DNA by Big Y. The ethnicity of this sample is Druze. That now puts SK1414 in England, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Syria? SK1414 is starting to look old.

A bit more info. 30 of the 50 SNPs shared with you are unique to the two of you, at least within haplogroup L. That's about 4,300 years of shared ancestry back to the split from T-PH8. So if YFull are right about the split being around 11,700 years ago, SK1414 is at least 7,400 years old.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

The baloch regions in Pakistan were isolated from British control(mostly) till the that last few decades of the 1800s. As far as I know, the number of baloch serving in the British Indian army was pretty low to non existent. I checked your admixtire results and your results look pretty typical for an Englishman(if you had a full balochi ancestor in the last 100-150 years, it would show up in admixture). It's probably medieval or at least 500-400 years old.
Thank you for looking. No, I don't expect an Asian Y ancestor for at least 400 years. My paper record on the surname Brooker line goes back to the Thames Valley 270 years ago. A Thomas Chandler lived at that time mid C18 only 52 km away at Basingstoke, that the other STR recorded English L-SK1414 descend from. If they had a common Y ancestor, it would unlikely be much more recent than 500 years ago. That no L-SK1414 have yet been reported between Syria and England, suggests to me, based on that limited evidence, that it was carried from Asia to England by a single generation. My best guess would be sometime between 2,000 years ago and 500 years ago - as you say, roughly Medieval. I personally feel that it would be towards the more recent end, as so few testers of European ancestry with L-SK1414 have been so far recorded - all from Thomas Chandler or John Brooker that lived in Southern England close by during the 1740s.

The Lascar hypothesis is just one possibility. My understanding is that there were professional sailors or lascars scattered around the Persian Gulf and Arabian Sea. If early European vessels recruited around the Persian Gulf, before the return voyage to an English port - that would fill in all of the ticks how an Asian man moved to England. My understanding is that lascars were being recruited as early as the 16th Century, but I'm making enquiries with historians.

The Balochi might still be a wild card. I don't know how close the Makran tester was to myself. However, is it inconceivable that a Makrani sailor couldn't end up in another port of the Persian Gulf or Arabian Sea, where he could end up on a European ship? I very much doubt that I'll ever know. I have absolutely no certainties - just best guesses.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

A bit more info. 30 of the 50 SNPs shared with you are unique to the two of you, at least within haplogroup L. That's about 4,300 years of shared ancestry back to the split from T-PH8. So if YFull are right about the split being around 11,700 years ago, SK1414 is at least 7,400 years old.

Thank you as always Gareth. SK1414 does indeed appear to be looking old. That's cracking information. Do you know, or can you say if the tester was indeed Syrian?

[Anabasis]

A bit more info. 30 of the 50 SNPs shared with you are unique to the two of you, at least within haplogroup L. That's about 4,300 years of shared ancestry back to the split from T-PH8. So if YFull are right about the split being around 11,700 years ago, SK1414 is at least 7,400 years old.

Lol I was right then :) By the way, he joined to L project. M9536. There are 3 more BIG Y on the way. Rest of them also joined to project. Please check them.

[vettor]

Thanks for alerting me! This is one of several interesting Druze Big Y tested kits. We also have a T-L490 (probably L206+ M70-) whose TMRCA with the rest of T1 is approx. 20,000 years ago.

Since the Druze are stated from a recent paper ( about a month ago )
The biogeographical analysis localised many of the Druze to the Zagros Mountains and the mountains surrounding Lake Van and postulated that their migration path ran along a trajectory from southeast Turkey to southeast Syria.
Druze biogeographic affinity, migration patterns, time of emergence and genetic similarity to Near Eastern populations are highly suggestive of Armenian-Turkish ancestries for the proto-Druze.

Such a conclusion is in agreement with our ancient DNA analysis since, in relation to ancient individuals (12,000–1000 B.C.), a third of the Druze appear like ancient Armenians, whereas the remaining exhibit nearly 80% ancient Armenian ancestry compared to less than 15% ancient Levantine ancestry

and their closest admixture is with Armenian and Adygei , then the L must be from the caucasus mountains . which IIRC does have a lot of L

As for your T-L490 ..............I am positive for this as well ...and... positive for M70

[A Norfolk L-M20]

L-SK1414 was therefore present in the Levant Region by 1000 AD. The tester is Lebanese Druze. He attests for his ancestry for at least 400 years, and recent studies into the Druze genome do indeed seem to be suggesting that although including a diversity of haplogroups, it does appear to have been pretty insular for the past 1000 years, giving a fair representation of a Medieval Levant population. The tester, in the words of the Druze DNA Project manager "should have been either residents in Mount Lebanon or migrated as many other Druze families from the Idlib region in NW Syria (Jabal el Summaq Mountain)". The FT-DNA L-SK1414 cluster on Y hg L Project (thanks Gareth) has grown to a staggering five samples.

L-SK1414 in Asia. Note that the Saudi Arabia sample is generic as I do not have his location beyond Country:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12818&d=1480613839

I have modified the above image of a map of South Western Asia from OpenStreetMap.org Copyright attribution-sharealike 2.0 generic.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

FT-DNA have moved my terminal SNP from SK1414 down to what was a novel, FGC51036. A search online found this SNP in the Jewish DNA project registered to a 490897 Rahamim (ammar alani -IQ Project) Iraqi Karaite jewish/ Anbar / heet. Does anyone else have any information on this, or how I can find out more please?

[GarethH]

FT-DNA have moved my terminal SNP from SK1414 down to what was a novel, FGC51036. A search online found this SNP in the Jewish DNA project registered to a 490897 Rahamim (ammar alani -IQ Project) Iraqi Karaite jewish/ Anbar / heet. Does anyone else have any information on this, or how I can find out more please?

490897 is one of the first 11 kits with results from the L-M20 pack but he and all the others are FGC51036-. Unlike FTDNA and YFull, FGC give names to singleton/private SNPs (i.e. found in one person only) if they pass their quality threshold. FTDNA and YFull both wait for a second positive kit to turn up before allocating a name from their BY and Y series respectively. In the case of FGC51036, the only person positive to date is you. I included it in my list of suggestions for the L-M20 pack because I suspected that SK1414 will be quite widespread and it would be useful to have a potential downstream marker. With hindsight I wish I had added a couple more because the pack is still overweight in upstream SNPs which are probably equivalent to the main branch markers. So people buying the test will get lots of positive SNPs, which looks good on the haplotree page but actually isn't always as informative as a mix of positive and negative SNPs further downstream.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Thanks for that excellent explanation Gareth. I'm glad to see that my crazy investment into these Y tests and analysis during 2016 is now providing some fruits. Brilliant! Looking forward to see how it grows in the future. I see there is an American L-SK1414 of European? descent? I'm particularly interested in these, in order to better understand how, and when my Y line moved from Asia to England.

[mcy5751]

I see there is an American L-SK1414 of European? descent? I'm particularly interested in these, in order to better understand how, and when my Y line moved from Asia to England.
That's me! I just got these results from the L-M20 pack and discovered this forum. My g-g grandfather, I've been told, was "Pennsylvania Dutch," i.e., German or Swiss Anabaptist. According to the 1880 census, he was born in Pennsylvania as were his parents, so that would put my paternal ancestors in Europe perhaps six generations ago. Looks like there was a stop along the way from Asia to England?

[A Norfolk L-M20]

That's me! I just got these results from the L-M20 pack and discovered this forum. My g-g grandfather, I've been told, was "Pennsylvania Dutch," i.e., German or Swiss Anabaptist. According to the 1880 census, he was born in Pennsylvania as were his parents, so that would put my paternal ancestors in Europe perhaps six generations ago. Looks like there was a stop along the way from Asia to England?

Brilliant! This is so cool. I'm at work all night but will message you here tomorrow. You could radically change my interpretation of my Y story. Until now, a few of us in England were the only in Europe. From that I speculated that I had a Y Ancestor move direct from Asia to England between 2000 and 500 years ago. However if more SK1414 turn up in Europe then the story is more complex, and there must be more of us. You'll find what I've I've discovered so far o. My blog. http://paulbrooker.posthaven.com you

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Brilliant! This is so cool. I'm at work all night but will message you here tomorrow. You could radically change my interpretation of my Y story. Until now, a few of us in England were the only in Europe. From that I speculated that I had a Y Ancestor move direct from Asia to England between 2000 and 500 years ago. However if more SK1414 turn up in Europe then the story is more complex, and there must be more of us. You'll find what I've I've discovered so far o. My blog. http://paulbrooker.posthaven.com you

Message sent to mcy5751.

If he took the L-M20 pack, and has subsequently been assigned to L-SK1414, does this mean that he is negative for FGC51036? In addition, I note that his STR to my inexperienced eyes look quite different to mine. A little distant. If so, considering that FGC51036 has also turned up in the Jewish Project from a sample provenanced to South Iraq / Kuwait, does this suggest multiple entry of L-SK1414 into Europe? At least two lines?

[mcy5751]

Yes indeed, I took the L-M20 pack and tested negative for FGC51036.

Thank you for your PM, which I read with great interest. As I'm new to this board I'm unable to reply/send a PM until I've reached a certain number of posts.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Yes indeed, I took the L-M20 pack and tested negative for FGC51036.

Thank you for your PM, which I read with great interest. As I'm new to this board I'm unable to reply/send a PM until I've reached a certain number of posts.

Incredible. Unless anyone with more expertise out there can explain otherwise, I take this to mean that we are descended from two different Asians into Europe from centuries ago. I don't think that we can be descended from the same migrant to Europe. My Y story hasn't changed yet - and yours has just begun.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Searching for my new terminal SNP FGC51036, downstream of SK1414, I've come across the L Haplogroup Arabia & Middle East - Y-DNA SNP FT-DNA Project. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/l-arabia/default.aspx?section=ysnp. Does anyone know about this project?

It has three samples tested positive for SK1414 and FGC51036.

Kit 415176 gives origins as: السادة ال قزان (ammar alani studies T). Kit 490897 gives origins as: Iraqi Karaite jewish/ Anbar / heet, Rahamim (ammar alani -IQ Project). Kit 534031 gives origins as: واسط (ammar alani studies T) alzubaidi.

Anyone know about this? Gareth?

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Schoolboy error. The Iraqi samples are not SK1414

[GarethH]

One more SK1414+ result today - kit 526097 from Turkey. I've renamed cluster 26 to 16 - this is the cluster with DYS393 = 10, a very rare value which has also been seen in Parsi men in Pakistan.

[Anabasis]

One more SK1414+ result today - kit 526097 from Turkey. I've renamed cluster 26 to 16 - this is the cluster with DYS393 = 10, a very rare value which has also been seen in Parsi men in Pakistan.

This guy from Turkey is from Trabzon. His closest matcch also from trabzon who is not in project.

Gareth is this parsi men also L? Were thier results published in an article?

[GarethH]

Gareth is this parsi men also L? Were thier results published in an article?

They were in the Qamar et al paper published in 2002 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC447589/
This was so long ago that hg L was referred to as "haplogroup 28".
This diagram is particularly interesting:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC447589/figure/FG6/
The Parsi are the dark green circles at the bottom, they are quite distinct from the main clusters of L-M27 (top) and L-M357 (middle) samples.
The two pinkish circles near the top of the Parsi branch are Makrani samples, one of them may have been the same sample in which SK1414 was discovered.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

SK1414 has quickly grown in the project! Now 17 kits, across the three groups that Gareth has currently assigned. Kits from England, USA (Germany / Switzerland?), Iran, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Azores / Portugal, Turkey, and Tatar Russia that I can see. There must be a lot more of us.

Group 16 (was 26) L-SK1414 DYS425 = null DYS393 = 10 does look fascinating. I see Peter is in there.

[vettor]

SK1414 has quickly grown in the project! Now 17 kits, across the three groups that Gareth has currently assigned. Kits from England, USA (Germany / Switzerland?), Iran, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Azores / Portugal, Turkey, and Tatar Russia that I can see. There must be a lot more of us.

Group 16 (was 26) L-SK1414 DYS425 = null DYS393 = 10 does look fascinating. I see Peter is in there.

Have you investigated this group in the genetic papers of Pichler 2006, Thomas 2007, Coia 2013 and Boattini 2013 .......who have found and tested an average of 10% of this L haplogroup in the Italian Alps ..........with the highest being Fassa area which has 19%

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Have you investigated this group in the genetic papers of Pichler 2006, Thomas 2007, Coia 2013 and Boattini 2013 .......who have found and tested an average of 10% of this L haplogroup in the Italian Alps ..........with the highest being Fassa area which has 19%

Hi Vettor, wouldn't they have been L-M349?

[GarethH]

YFull 5.03 is live and dates L-SK1414 (which they call L-FGC51074) to 6,000 ybp or 4,000 BC. This based on the two Big Y samples from Norfolk and Lebanon.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

YFull 5.03 is live and dates L-SK1414 (which they call L-FGC51074) to 6,000 ybp or 4,000 BC. This based on the two Big Y samples from Norfolk and Lebanon.

Thanks for the tip Gareth! So, 6,000 years since TMRCA. That's a bit younger!

[Anabasis]

Thanks for the tip Gareth! So, 6,000 years since TMRCA. That's a bit younger!

Its the TMRCA between you and the Lebanese sample but not the age of SK1414. SK1414 or one of all equalent SNPs formed 13k years ago. I think STR diversity of SK1414 show us SK1414 is one of the oldest SNPs in those equalent SNP set. On the other hand yes we are coming more present as far as more people make thier full sequence ydna test. But 6000 Years is too much. Even some SNPs ages less then 3k is very common in many population.

[GarethH]

Its the TMRCA between you and the Lebanese sample but not the age of SK1414. SK1414 or one of all equalent SNPs formed 13k years ago. I think STR diversity of SK1414 show us SK1414 is one of the oldest SNPs in those equalent SNP set. On the other hand yes we are coming more present as far as more people make thier full sequence ydna test. But 6000 Years is too much. Even some SNPs ages less then 3k is very common in many population.

I did say it was the estimated age of L-SK1414 i.e. the branch, not the SNP itself. Estimating ages for branches is difficult, getting ages for individual SNPs that far back in time is nearly impossible as there aren't enough branches surviving today to reveal the exact order in which the SNPs occurred. You might get lucky with ancient DNA and be able to break up lists of equivalent SNPs but nothing is guaranteed. But I'm OK with that, the aim is to learn more about the history of humanity's paternal line tree, YDNA is just the means to that end.

[jesus]

They were in the Qamar et al paper published in 2002 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC447589/
This was so long ago that hg L was referred to as "haplogroup 28".
This diagram is particularly interesting:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC447589/figure/FG6/
The Parsi are the dark green circles at the bottom, they are quite distinct from the main clusters of L-M27 (top) and L-M357 (middle) samples.
The two pinkish circles near the top of the Parsi branch are Makrani samples, one of them may have been the same sample in which SK1414 was discovered.

In the new study about Zoroastrians, 55% of Zoroastrian preists(Parsis) belonged to haplogroup 28(most is L1b and probably L-SK1414). Sadly only 8 priests from Iran were tested and none showed y-DNA 28, probably due to the small sample size(check the supplementary material)




http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/04/18/128272

[Kurdistani]

Hi I am Kurdish and today my Big y 700 come out my Y DNA SK1414 as well from South east turkey we call north Kurdistan and Baloch are our cousins. I am speak Kurdish my all parents and grandparents and they are grandparents Kurds to we are from Mardin city very nice and very old city.

[Kurdistani]

I love your profile you have my flag :-)

[Kurdistani]

I am Kurdish and Baloch are our Cousins My Y full dna L-SK1414 I am from Turkish Kurdistan North Mardin city.

[Fried]

A new very interesting sample appeared on Yfull (https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-SK1412/) - HGDP00131, Makrani (list of samples (https://people.maths.bris.ac.uk/~madjl/finestructure/populations2.plink.cluster.txt)). He belongs to the subclade L-SK1412 (formed 12700 ybp,TMRCA 11600 ybp), ancestral for L-SK1414.

[Fried]

A new very interesting sample appeared on Yfull (https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-SK1412/) - HGDP00131, Makrani (list of samples (https://people.maths.bris.ac.uk/~madjl/finestructure/populations2.plink.cluster.txt)). He belongs to the subclade L-SK1412 (formed 12700 ybp,TMRCA 11600 ybp), ancestral for L-SK1414.
An update! Now it's in this (https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-Y16208/) branch. Alas, it's L-Y16208*.

[peloponnesian]

I have a paternally British match on 23andMe with haplogroup L-M349. Unfortunately he was adopted at birth so I'm not sure he knows his exact paternal origins. I've talked to him however so if anyone's interested I can ask him.