PDA

View Full Version : Z225 (DF27>Z225) - another early branch of DF27 with an Iberian connection



TigerMW
05-16-2013, 03:06 AM
Z225 could be an important early branching subclade of DF27. Not that many DF27+ Z196- have tested for for Z225 but it is already accumulating derived (positive) folks.

Here is an updated from the R1b-P312 (Atlantic-r1b) project administrator.

z224, z225, z229 need to be removed from cloud since z225 is already boxed under DF27; Z229 is on same level, and usually paired with Z225, and Z224 is under Z225/Z229. All of them, z224, z225 and z229 are
available to order from FTDNA.

In the box for z225, if you can fit z225/z229, it would be more correct since that is how Rich Rocca designated them in his work, and they often have been tested as a pair following Rocca's designation.
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-P312-Project/message/4404

TigerMW
05-16-2013, 03:10 AM
Here are the early Z225+ people in our DNA projects. I guess we should not overlook that a German is in the group.... and of course our obligatory Isles person or two.

fN94556 Garrido Z225+ Z229+ d225- uas Spain
fN5479 Llana Z225+ Z229+ d225- uas Spain, Asturias, Pravia
fN18213 Viverna Z225+ d225- uas France, Aquitaine, Pyrénées-Atlantiques, Abos
f187084 Caspary Z225+ d225-2430 Germany, Hesse, Darmstadt, Frankfurt-EcKenh
f95673 Austin Z225+ d225-9910 England
f110924 Clark Z225+ Z229+ d225-9910 UK
fN10566 Oliver Z225+ Z229+ d225-9910 UK
f227823 zzzUnk(Oliver) Z225+ Z229+ d225-9910 zzzUnkOrigin
f221362 zzzUnknown Z225+ Z229+ d225-9910 zzzUnkOrigin

JLRevilla
08-02-2014, 08:53 PM
I tested positive for S19862 at Britain'sDNA and, if I understood the forums correctly, that means I'm Z225 as well...
The bad news is I'm adopted so I have zero information about my ancestry =( but I know I was born in South America 37 years ago (Peru, Chile or Argentina)

razyn
08-03-2014, 03:23 AM
On another thread I just replied to your comment, with what amounts to a response also to this one. Rather than rewriting that, I'll just paste in the link:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2280-Alistair-Moffat-BritainsDNA-and-the-BBC&p=47514&viewfull=1#post47514

Earl Davis
01-06-2016, 07:58 PM
A fourth named subclade of Z225 called Y16018 has been added to the Big Tree today.

razyn
01-06-2016, 09:53 PM
A fourth named subclade of Z225 called Y16018 has been added to the Big Tree today.
That one is called by the new DF27 SNP pack, so after hits from that pack started showing up (about Dec. 15) those who have tested positive for it in their BigY results are also seeing it display in green as their new "terminal" SNP.

One of the Y16018 guys whose paternal ancestry has been German, and then American, since about 1400 has been emailing me with questions about reconciliation of what one sees (in the project) with what little there is available about Z225 online. Most such references appear to begin with a statement that this is an Iberian branch of DF27. That's debatable, but hasn't much been debated. I think when Z225 was discovered, four or five years ago, the only known examples were anonymous ones in the 1000 Genomes project whose bearers had Iberian ancestry.

lgmayka
01-06-2016, 10:24 PM
Kit 307469 of Poland is Z225+ . Unfortunately, he has not ordered the DF27 SNP Pack.

miiser
01-06-2016, 10:50 PM
That one is called by the new DF27 SNP pack, so after hits from that pack started showing up (about Dec. 15) those who have tested positive for it in their BigY results are also seeing it display in green as their new "terminal" SNP.

One of the Y16018 guys whose paternal ancestry has been German, and then American, since about 1400 has been emailing me with questions about reconciliation of what one sees (in the project) with what little there is available about Z225 online. Most such references appear to begin with a statement that this is an Iberian branch of DF27. That's debatable, but hasn't much been debated. I think when Z225 was discovered, four or five years ago, the only known examples were anonymous ones in the 1000 Genomes project whose bearers had Iberian ancestry.

Yes, much of the older online material, based on a miniscule sample size, is misleading regarding haplogroup origins. This is a recurring tendency of analysts, for sure. L1066 of Z253 suffered a similar fate. The first couple discovered happened to be Iberians from the 1000 Genomes Project, and the haplogroup has never since been able to shake the "continental" label, in spite of dozens of subsequent Irish and British samples which put the distribution on par with all its sibling haplogroups.

Z225 looks much more Iberian than L1006, but likely the same scenario is playing out. The early samples were not representative of the whole population. I've observed a perverse contrarian tendency among some analysts to latch onto any solitary non British Isles sample and say that "such and such is a XXX (Iberian, Norman, Viking, etc.) haplogroup", while simultaneously insisting of the dozens of British and Irish samples, "modern distribution is not an indication of origin" - as if the British Isles had a one way door through which haplogroups may enter, but none may ever leave.

To me, Z225 looks . . . European. Noncommittal perhaps, but at least accurate and not misleading. Yes, Z225 has "an Iberian connection". It also has German, Irish, English, Welsh, French, Polish, and Iraqi connections.

Webb
01-07-2016, 04:48 PM
Yes, much of the older online material, based on a miniscule sample size, is misleading regarding haplogroup origins. This is a recurring tendency of analysts, for sure. L1066 of Z253 suffered a similar fate. The first couple discovered happened to be Iberians from the 1000 Genomes Project, and the haplogroup has never since been able to shake the "continental" label, in spite of dozens of subsequent Irish and British samples which put the distribution on par with all its sibling haplogroups.

Z225 looks much more Iberian than L1006, but likely the same scenario is playing out. The early samples were not representative of the whole population. I've observed a perverse contrarian tendency among some analysts to latch onto any solitary non British Isles sample and say that "such and such is a XXX (Iberian, Norman, Viking, etc.) haplogroup", while simultaneously insisting of the dozens of British and Irish samples, "modern distribution is not an indication of origin" - as if the British Isles had a one way door through which haplogroups may enter, but none may ever leave.

To me, Z225 looks . . . European. Noncommittal perhaps, but at least accurate and not misleading. Yes, Z225 has "an Iberian connection". It also has German, Irish, English, Welsh, French, Polish, and Iraqi connections.

Exactly. Everyone has a tendency to point out the testing bias between people of British ancestry versus people of Spanish ancestry as 10 to 1. One, I think this is a bit exaggerated, and no one ever produces the proof that it is 10 to 1. I would argue that the testing bias between people of British ancestry versus northern/European ancestry, including Germany is often ignored, when the bias is probably just as disparaging, and if we had more testing in Northern/Eastern Europe, we might see an vast increase in DF27, L21, and U152 results.

TigerMW
01-07-2016, 04:57 PM
Exactly. Everyone has a tendency to point out the testing bias between people of British ancestry versus people of Spanish ancestry as 10 to 1. One, I think this is a bit exaggerated, and no one ever produces the proof that it is 10 to 1. I would argue that the testing bias between people of British ancestry versus northern/European ancestry, including Germany is often ignored, when the bias is probably just as disparaging, and if we had more testing in Northern/Eastern Europe, we might see an vast increase in DF27, L21, and U152 results.
Agreed. It's difficult but I try not to associate an STR Signature or a SNP identified branch with a geography, at least in the labeling. A classic case has been brought on this thread. One haplotype modal was discovered and named Irish IV but quickly changed to Irish IV/Continental. Where did it come from and where is it most populous? Testing biases get in the way. Hence, in spreadsheets I end up with boring neutral names like 253-IT4. I see Alex is using IT3 for L226 now on the Big Tree. Of course, that's Irish Type III and the admins will call it Dalcassian some times.

razyn
01-07-2016, 05:31 PM
Agreed. It's difficult but I try not to associate an STR Signature or a SNP identified branch with a geography, at least in the labeling.
It might seem that you were trying harder if the caption of this thread (which you started) didn't say "with an Iberian connection." Just in case you'd like to change the caption...

Anyway the testing bias that gets the most flak is that caused by FTDNA's selling tests most successfully in the North America, where most of the colonial populations were from western Europe (including btw both Iberia and France). But 1000 Genomes samples skew heavily in favor of Iberia. Without trying to suggest that one is right and the other wrong, I'm just pointing out that what one sees is a function of whom one tests. After new tests on different populations show a broader pattern, it's incumbent on us to try to adjust our thinking (and mapping) about these things.

TigerMW
01-07-2016, 06:35 PM
It might seem that you were trying harder if the caption of this thread (which you started) didn't say "with an Iberian connection." Just in case you'd like to change the caption...
...
This is the problem with PC, the next thing you know you can't mention words. I don't I think the word "connection" implies origin or prevalence.

In fact, when I look at this quote from early in the thread it hardly shows I was pushing of "if you Z225 you are Iberian" concept.


Here are the early Z225+ people in our DNA projects. I guess we should not overlook that a German is in the group.... and of course our obligatory Isles person or two.

fN94556 Garrido Z225+ Z229+ d225- uas Spain
fN5479 Llana Z225+ Z229+ d225- uas Spain, Asturias, Pravia
fN18213 Viverna Z225+ d225- uas France, Aquitaine, Pyrénées-Atlantiques, Abos
f187084 Caspary Z225+ d225-2430 Germany, Hesse, Darmstadt, Frankfurt-EcKenh
f95673 Austin Z225+ d225-9910 England
f110924 Clark Z225+ Z229+ d225-9910 UK
fN10566 Oliver Z225+ Z229+ d225-9910 UK
f227823 zzzUnk(Oliver) Z225+ Z229+ d225-9910 zzzUnkOrigin
f221362 zzzUnknown Z225+ Z229+ d225-9910 zzzUnkOrigin

Still, I know there have been times I've associated a subclade with a location where there was still a great deal of uncertainty so I've been guilty at some point but just not this one as the proper context of "connection" was used.

razyn
01-07-2016, 07:10 PM
Didn't mean to imply that you made it up. The Iberian connection of Z225 was on DNA-Forums in 2011, not that we can see that any more. And at that time, the only data about Z225 came from 1kG samples. First published (I think) in Rocca et al, 2012. The fact that that can seem a long time ago is an indication of how fast the landscape shifts in this field of study.

miiser
01-07-2016, 09:16 PM
Agreed. It's difficult but I try not to associate an STR Signature or a SNP identified branch with a geography, at least in the labeling. A classic case has been brought on this thread. One haplotype modal was discovered and named Irish IV but quickly changed to Irish IV/Continental. Where did it come from and where is it most populous? Testing biases get in the way. Hence, in spreadsheets I end up with boring neutral names like 253-IT4. I see Alex is using IT3 for L226 now on the Big Tree. Of course, that's Irish Type III and the admins will call it Dalcassian some times.

The Irish IV group itself is a good example of wrong early assumptions based on insufficient data, even apart from the "continental" label. When I started out in genetic genealogy, first learning the ropes, I came across the groups labelled Irish III, Irish IV, etc. Being Irish IV myself, I wanted to find out more, so I dug through all the online material. I was very confused for awhile, because much of the online material regarding Irish IV was contradictory. What I eventually realized was that the definition of Irish IV had changed since its inception, in order to force it to fit the moving target of the actual data. The original group had been much larger, and included multiple unrelated haplogroups that happened to have similar STR signatures, later shown to be unrelated. As the new data debunked the hypothetical Irish IV group, its definition was modified to be compatible with the new data. We would have been better off if the label had been completely abandoned to avoid confusion, but I think the inventors of the group were trying to save face.

Getting back to Z225, here's a link to a paper credited to well known members of the community regarding DF27 and Z225: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404022/

"The concentration of Latin American/Iberian samples derived at DF27 shows the geographical importance of this marker in Iberia. That only Latin American samples were members of the DF27 subclade defined by the mutations Z225 and Z229 further illustrates strong Iberian ties and is consistent with the possibility of colonial era founders in the Americas."

I generally respect the authors as qualified, unbiased scientists. But I think there's probably a tendency to jump to conclusions too soon in order to get credit for making a discovery, even when the scientist knows the sample size is much too small and the evidence flimsy. So we have many cases of haplogroups getting a reputation that doesn't hold up as the sample size grows.

As Webb mentioned, British/Irish sampling bias has become the default argument to explain away distributions that don't fit the hypothesis or label. But a quick glance at the "Iberian Peninsula" project is enough to convince an unbiased observer that the sample bias is not nearly so bad as is often suggested. And for any statistician worth their salt, the sample size is easy enough to account for when comparing the concentration of various haplogroups. And 1000 Genomes, upon which many of the early labels were based, has its own sampling bias as well.

miiser
01-07-2016, 09:57 PM
This is the problem with PC, the next thing you know you can't mention words. I don't I think the word "connection" implies origin or prevalence.

In fact, when I look at this quote from early in the thread it hardly shows I was pushing of "if you Z225 you are Iberian" concept.



Still, I know there have been times I've associated a subclade with a location where there was still a great deal of uncertainty so I've been guilty at some point but just not this one as the proper context of "connection" was used.

But I think a fair question would be, why did the thread title explicitly mention "an Iberian connection" and not the German, French, or British Isles connections? It does suggest an intent to support a particular hypothesis.

And, although you are somewhat fair in pointing out that there are quite a few non-Iberian samples, your commentary about each of the samples is still a little biased. The 3 UK samples get whittled down to "our obligatory Isles person or two", and you chose not to mention the French guy at all.

jutland
01-29-2016, 05:20 AM
I was z225, did the DF27 pack and am Y16018. Confirmed by NG and FTdna. Interestingly, this is being found in the Irish and I do believe that there is a connection with UK and Iberia just as there is a connection with the colonial Americas with z225 and Iberia. I wish I knew more about Y16018.

razyn
02-02-2016, 04:15 PM
One of the new BY SNPs, that shows up as a blue button in the haplotree displays for a lot of people who don't need to test for it, turns out to be a brother clade to Z225 (both under ZZ39 -- not that ZZ39 is on many trees, yet). So I have renamed the former group Pf; its members are now the new group Ib, just below Z225 and its subgroups. Some of the captions in groups beginning with I or P have also been revised, but the members are the same.

razyn
01-25-2017, 01:18 PM
Speaking of new subclades of Z225, and Iberians -- three "Z229" guys whose BigY results include about 32 Shared Novel Variants are on the Big Tree now (though their shared SNPs aren't, yet). Today I created a new subgroup Ia4 for them. All three report a Portuguese MDKA, so that will probably make several people happy. Regrettably, it will also probably reinforce their misconceptions about what it means. Oh well. It's a good thing to get the tree looking more accurate in its details.

On the Big Tree there's a fifth top level subgroup of Z229 that would be something like group Ia5, if any of its bearers were FTDNA customers. They are all mystery guys, numbered among those relatively oversampled Iberians from the 1000 Genomes project. They share about 40+ SNPs; maybe S360/Z223 would be a good one to lead with -- it might turn up in some chip test results from which we can locate the actual testee.

RCO
01-25-2017, 01:38 PM
What would be the TMRCA of the Portuguese Ia4 group ?

ArmandoR1b
01-25-2017, 03:05 PM
numbered among those relatively oversampled Iberians from the 1000 Genomes projectBut not oversampled relative to the British Isles which has even more BigY participants relative to the population.

Lugus
01-25-2017, 04:17 PM
All three report a Portuguese MDKA, so that will probably make several people happy. Regrettably, it will also probably reinforce their misconceptions about what it means.

What are their misconceptions and what does it really mean?

RCO
01-25-2017, 04:32 PM
It's obviously a Portuguese and Iberian cluster by frequency and diversity.

razyn
01-25-2017, 05:04 PM
It's obviously a Portuguese and Iberian cluster by frequency and diversity.

Well, sort of obviously. And S360 is just as obviously a Puerto Rican cluster, on the very same phylogenetic level. I think we can agree in not really believing the latter, but the evidence is about equal for either position -- which is to say, very slim, from a sample of three.

I say some of these things just to yank the chains of people who still believe the Basques have been in Spain since the LGM refugium, and were M153 at the time. Because in 2011, the M153 "Basque Cluster" was directly below P312; and all P312* people from the Deep Clade test of that vintage (myself included) were tested for M153. So YBrowse shows, for M153, 3842 tested and 33 derived. Most of the other 3809 were presumably some other branch of DF27, with a scattering of DF19, S238 etc. We have learned a lot since 2011; FTDNA (for instance) has learned not to sell that test. But many people have not learned how young M153 is, or how recently the Basques became a DF27+ majority population.

And then there's the "Celtic from the West" mythology, much more recent -- but just about as likely to make its adherents look at a Portuguese cluster (of three) and say, "Aha!"

N.B. I'm not attributing complete nonsense to RCO, Armando or Lugus, all of whom are well informed, and pretty rational by the standards of genetic genealogy forum posters. But we don't all come to this discussion with the same assumptions, and those have some influence on our hypotheses. I look forward to the new Bell Beaker paper, and then all the tap-dancing around its results, to make present reality (like Maciamo's DF27 map) agree better with ancient reality, whatever it may turn out to have been.

Lugus
01-25-2017, 05:08 PM
It's obviously a Portuguese and Iberian cluster by frequency and diversity.

Indeed in this case the Iberian samples are predominant and seem to cluster more remotely. But then you also have German samples and in YFull even one from Kyrgyzstan! In The Big Tree don't I see also a flag from Iraq?

Lugus
01-25-2017, 05:37 PM
But we don't all come to this discussion with the same assumptions, and those have some influence on our hypotheses. I look forward to the new Bell Beaker paper, and then all the tap-dancing around its results, to make present reality (like Maciamo's DF27 map) agree better with ancient reality, whatever it may turn out to have been.

I must say that I don't have any assumptions and also no real hypotheses, just a few ideas and a desire to know the explanation for the data we're seeing. I try to keep an open mind and will be happy with whatever answers we'll eventually get. The ancient Greeks believed they sprang from the earth (autochthones). We grew up a bit since then and we know we're all descended from immigrants, some more recent, some more remote.

ArmandoR1b
01-25-2017, 07:56 PM
In The Big Tree don't I see also a flag from Iraq?Doesn't that one have a surname from the British Isles?

Lugus
01-25-2017, 08:34 PM
Doesn't that one have a surname from the British Isles?

Yes and he's in a group with other people with British surnames.

Incidentally, I recently had my nephew tested for 37 markers and he came out M269. From his matches I think he might also be DF27. We're waiting for the results of the Big Y. I'm getting a few more relatives to test.

ArmandoR1b
01-25-2017, 09:32 PM
Incidentally, I recently had my nephew tested for 37 markers and he came out M269. From his matches I think he might also be DF27. We're waiting for the results of the Big Y. I'm getting a few more relatives to test.

I'm really looking forward to the day that Y-DNA testing is as popular in both Spain and Portugal as it is in the U.S.

gotten
01-25-2017, 09:33 PM
Doesn't that one have a surname from the British Isles?

He believes his line goes back patrilineally to Adam :\, allegedly born in Iraq (no joke). Take his MDKA with a pillar of salt and just assume it is USA / UK.

The Kyrgyzi kit from Yfull is the same sample.

ArmandoR1b
01-25-2017, 09:36 PM
He believes his line goes back patrilineally to Adam :\, allegedly born in Iraq (no joke). Take his MDKA with a pillar of salt and just assume it is USA / UK.

Thank you. That's one less thing to be confused about.

kafky
04-15-2019, 11:41 PM
I'm really looking forward to the day that Y-DNA testing is as popular in both Spain and Portugal as it is in the U.S.

I have this result:
R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > ZZ39 > Z229

My paternal side is Portuguese and the last record is from 1654-12-21 from Tomé Fernandes, son of Domingos Ramos and Maria Fernandes. They were born in the center-north of Portugal, in Moimenta da Beira, Viseu district.

Webb
04-16-2019, 01:42 PM
I have this result:
R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > ZZ39 > Z229

My paternal side is Portuguese and the last record is from 1654-12-21 from Tomé Fernandes, son of Domingos Ramos and Maria Fernandes. They were born in the center-north of Portugal, in Moimenta da Beira, Viseu district.

Hello kafky. Did you test individual snp's or did you do a BigY500 or BigY700?

kafky
04-16-2019, 09:37 PM
Hello kafky. Did you test individual snp's or did you do a BigY500 or BigY700?

I did WGS 30X on Dante Labs.

Shadogowah
05-08-2019, 09:12 AM
I have this result:
R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > ZZ39 > Z229

My paternal side is Portuguese and the last record is from 1654-12-21 from Tomé Fernandes, son of Domingos Ramos and Maria Fernandes. They were born in the center-north of Portugal, in Moimenta da Beira, Viseu district.

Hello Kafky,

It is always nice to meet a new cousin.

In my opinion a statement like "Z225 has an Iberian connection" is a bit like saying "Oktoberfest is somehow related to beer".


First a link to Z225 in Alex Williamson's tree that gives a clear picture of the modern distribution so far. It is worthy to mention that Iberian samples compared to "anglo" ones are totally underrepresented and French are almost nonexistent. Despite this bias, the dominance of Iberian samples in this branch is evident.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=190

The few non-Iberian outliers in this branch seem to have split from their Iberian cousins around 1500 BC. My opinion based on what we know so far is that most likely these outliers also have the same "Iberian" origin (and I include in this definition of Iberia not only the Iberian peninsula but also that narrow gap in France north of the Pyrenees that shows up in DF27 heat maps). I think Z225 reached the British Isles departing from Spanish and /or French southern Atlantic coast and NOT the North Sea as their distant cousins L21 did.

We Z225 carriers are lucky that we also have a bronze age sample found in Iberia (https://goo.gl/maps/hkZQLie1gcHxeoLU9) dated 1867–1616 BC. Oldest so far and very close to the median for the estimated age of Z225 (2000 BC) again inside that hot area centered in the basque country that spreads both sides of the Pyrenees where the highest proportion of DF27 is still found today.

kafky
05-18-2019, 12:53 PM
Hello Kafky,

It is always nice to meet a new cousin.

In my opinion a statement like "Z225 has an Iberian connection" is a bit like saying "Oktoberfest is somehow related to beer".


First a link to Z225 in Alex Williamson's tree that gives a clear picture of the modern distribution so far. It is worthy to mention that Iberian samples compared to "anglo" ones are totally underrepresented and French are almost nonexistent. Despite this bias, the dominance of Iberian samples in this branch is evident.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=190

The few non-Iberian outliers in this branch seem to have split from their Iberian cousins around 1500 BC. My opinion based on what we know so far is that most likely these outliers also have the same "Iberian" origin (and I include in this definition of Iberia not only the Iberian peninsula but also that narrow gap in France north of the Pyrenees that shows up in DF27 heat maps). I think Z225 reached the British Isles departing from Spanish and /or French southern Atlantic coast and NOT the North Sea as their distant cousins L21 did.

We Z225 carriers are lucky that we also have a bronze age sample found in Iberia (https://goo.gl/maps/hkZQLie1gcHxeoLU9) dated 1867–1616 BC. Oldest so far and very close to the median for the estimated age of Z225 (2000 BC) again inside that hot area centered in the basque country that spreads both sides of the Pyrenees where the highest proportion of DF27 is still found today.



Thanks Shadogowah for your reflections. I am still looking to define the sub-branch on the Z229 and I hope it may clarify a bit more on this big family of DF27, between West european countries. When I get more info, I will be pleased to share here.

razyn
05-18-2019, 09:50 PM
... that hot area centered in the basque country that spreads both sides of the Pyrenees where the highest proportion of DF27 is still found today.

It is a "hot spot" because of its modern distribution. Only. And that took a few thousand years of locally successful reproduction, to develop to its present abundant state (where it now appears most abundant).

We don't know that DF27, let alone Z225, was dense in that area in the Bronze Age; nor that it wasn't more dense in other areas, then. We do know that a Z225 guy got to Iberia fairly early, and has been found. Very probably, that's no coincidence. But beyond that, the assumptions are looking at an apple and seeing an orchard.

ArmandoR1b
05-19-2019, 06:31 PM
According to a post by Rocca (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16682-The-genomic-history-of-the-Iberian-Peninsula-over-the-past-8000-years&p=558826&highlight=DF27#post558826) "Harvard is working on a new capture that includes better coverage in the areas of DF27 and U152. Right now, the coverage for the former is very limited and impossible for the latter." so hopefully they will retest the P312 Bronze Age specimens already tested and in the future get more Bronze Age specimens. Of course that won't be a true representation of the distribution of DF27 in the Bronze Age but it should provide a general idea and that will be all we can hope for. Personally I don't see a larger percentage of DF27 north or east of France showing up in the Bronze Age. I see DF27 more as a haplogroup that first appeared in the Steppe or in Germany but didn't create a sink or hotspot until reaching France or Spain.

razyn
05-19-2019, 08:10 PM
Personally I don't see a larger percentage of DF27 north or east of France showing up in the Bronze Age.
I sort of do, but maybe only in the sense that one is larger than zero; or more likely, 1% is larger than 0%. As your quotation from Rocca suggests, the technology for finding DF27 in aDNA exists, but it needs to be used before we can expect to find that evidence.


I see DF27 more as a haplogroup that first appeared in the Steppe or in Germany but didn't create a sink or hotspot until reaching France or Spain.
I don't really disagree. But the same is true of U152, L21, and U106 (and their respective parent and grandparent, brother and cousin SNPs, that most of the literature in this field doesn't yet discuss). They have gone their separate ways, and have flourished most obviously somewhere else -- from each other, and from their places of origin. But they are all off the same tree, and it probably wasn't rooted in Western Europe. So, finding/refining the when and where of the major branching will be a good trick, if we can pull it off. It is worth trying. I usually speak up when I notice statements implying that DF27 (in particular) has been sufficiently researched already. We have scratched the surface.

ArmandoR1b
05-20-2019, 01:01 AM
I sort of do, but maybe only in the sense that one is larger than zero; or more likely, 1% is larger than 0%.

I doubt that samples such as P312+ specimen EHU002 2562–2306 cal BCE from El Hundido, Monasterio de Rodilla, Burgos, Castilla y León would show negative for DF27 if there were enough coverage. Same for specimens I6539 from 2500–2000 BCE and I5665 from 2280–1984 cal BCE. So it wouldn't be 0% in Spain. Too many of the other samples from Bronze Age Spain are positive for DF27 for those not to be DF27+.


As your quotation from Rocca suggests, the technology for finding DF27 in aDNA exists, but it needs to be used before we can expect to find that evidence.
Of course, that is why I mentioned it.



I don't really disagree. But the same is true of U152, L21, and U106 (and their respective parent and grandparent, brother and cousin SNPs, that most of the literature in this field doesn't yet discuss). They have gone their separate ways, and have flourished most obviously somewhere else -- from each other, and from their places of origin. But they are all off the same tree, and it probably wasn't rooted in Western Europe. So, finding/refining the when and where of the major branching will be a good trick, if we can pull it off. It is worth trying. Yes, it should be attempted. We can't say something doesn't exist somewhere at a significant rate without successful reads.


I usually speak up when I notice statements implying that DF27 (in particular) has been sufficiently researched already. We have scratched the surface.
Apart from the fact that there is more to do there is still a limit on what can be done. There is a limited number of ancient specimens and technology has a limit as to successfully getting reads on ancient DNA. So once all of the remaining specimens have been tested or retested with newer technology we will have to rely on what is available. The number of DF27+ Bronze Age specimens in Olalde et al. 2019 is a pretty good idea that it flourished shortly after it arrived and it's arrival is likely as soon as Steppe DNA arrived in Spain and it had to go through France to get there. Several of the German Bell Beaker specimens with successful reads of L2 showed positive for that SNP so already they aren't DF27. It already looks like DF27 will barely show up outside of France, Spain, and Portugal in the Bronze Age. Any more recent period will most likely show France and Spain to have the most DF27 just based on the other ancient specimens from the Iron Age that have appeared in studies. Even the DF27 Crusader sample from Lebanon shows to have Iberian DNA.

razyn
05-20-2019, 03:51 PM
It already looks like DF27 will barely show up outside of France, Spain, and Portugal in the Bronze Age.

Right, the Bronze Age when it shows up in France, Spain and Portugal -- looking autosomally like the grandsons of saddle-sore guys who had just arrived from "the steppe," loosely speaking. And probably by a northern route. Maybe DF27 guys had only been 1% of the males, back in that steppe-like homeland -- from which we currently have no DF27-tested samples; but ipso facto, no statistics about their percentage in the Bronze Age steppe population.

But any percentage larger than zero there, on the steppe or nearby (perhaps, a few waterfalls up the Dnieper), is enough. And it's also necessary -- because of all those Bronze Age L2 guys, their male-line cousins, in the vicinity of Prague. It's consistent with what we find tracing L21 backward from Ireland, U106 backward from Germany, U152 backward from Italy -- or Native Americans backward from the Americas. Big, ancient haplogroups tend not to have become most thoroughly proliferated (in today's tested populations) where their First Father originated.

Anyway, my argument isn't and wasn't with Armando, who is well informed and careful what he says. It was about two words (that I highlighted, in boldface) in a clause about DF27, in a post by Shadogowah. There is some aDNA evidence that ancient Z225 is Iberian. But DF27, not really. DF27 guys got there anciently; but when they did, they looked like foreigners. We're just quibbling about what stamps were on their passports. That will be resolved, sometime, by better evidence. Probably not by better quibbling.

Shadogowah
05-20-2019, 04:57 PM
[...]
There is some aDNA evidence that ancient Z225 is Iberian. But DF27, not really. DF27 guys got there anciently; but when they did, they looked like foreigners. We're just quibbling about what stamps were on their passports. That will be resolved, sometime, by better evidence. Probably not by better quibbling.

For someone who shows such a degree of skepticism and was trying to question that connection not many pages ago, I take it as big step.

In any case excuse me if I ignore your provocations and avoid any discussion with you.

Webb
05-20-2019, 11:35 PM
I doubt that samples such as P312+ specimen EHU002 2562–2306 cal BCE from El Hundido, Monasterio de Rodilla, Burgos, Castilla y León would show negative for DF27 if there were enough coverage. Same for specimens I6539 from 2500–2000 BCE and I5665 from 2280–1984 cal BCE. So it wouldn't be 0% in Spain. Too many of the other samples from Bronze Age Spain are positive for DF27 for those not to be DF27+.


Of course, that is why I mentioned it.

Yes, it should be attempted. We can't say something doesn't exist somewhere at a significant rate without successful reads.


Apart from the fact that there is more to do there is still a limit on what can be done. There is a limited number of ancient specimens and technology has a limit as to successfully getting reads on ancient DNA. So once all of the remaining specimens have been tested or retested with newer technology we will have to rely on what is available. The number of DF27+ Bronze Age specimens in Olalde et al. 2019 is a pretty good idea that it flourished shortly after it arrived and it's arrival is likely as soon as Steppe DNA arrived in Spain and it had to go through France to get there. Several of the German Bell Beaker specimens with successful reads of L2 showed positive for that SNP so already they aren't DF27. It already looks like DF27 will barely show up outside of France, Spain, and Portugal in the Bronze Age. Any more recent period will most likely show France and Spain to have the most DF27 just based on the other ancient specimens from the Iron Age that have appeared in studies. Even the DF27 Crusader sample from Lebanon shows to have Iberian DNA.

Don’t forget about the two Z196 Sicilian Beakers dated to around 2200 BCE.

razyn
05-28-2020, 02:58 AM
There is some aDNA evidence that ancient Z225 is Iberian.

And now, some aDNA evidence that it's Alsatian -- namely, newly published sample OBE3626-1 (has a positive call for Z229). jdean, Webb and Sktibo have been expressing an interest in it, over here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20136-Ancient-genomes-from-present-day-France-unveil-7-000-years-of-its-demographic-history&p=669993&viewfull=1#post669993

Luso
07-15-2020, 07:43 PM
Anyone know where to downstream test for Z225? I have R-Z225 paternally.

+

Thanks for the discussion it is very interesting. :)

giuseppe11sorbello
10-08-2020, 09:41 AM
Hello all!

Here Z225+. I'm from Sicily, I traced my paternal line until 1450 with Giovanni Sorvello.