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TigerMW
05-16-2013, 03:49 PM
Hello Mike,

Im certain the U152 project has way more Z56 from Italy... Also of course the Tuscans from the 1K genomes project.

My family is from Italy. Both parents born and raised in Rome. We are and were scattered throughout the Umbria region and Rome. Minus my parents and brothers coming to Canada, Italy is the only home we have ever known. My paternal line is Z56, Z144/Z145/Z146.

Here are the current counts of Z56+ tested folks who list Old World MDKAs. This is in the R1b-P312xL21 spreadsheet if you want access to it. I manually scraped the Italy, N.Italy, Calabria projects as well as U152, P312, R1b, R1b1a2 projects along with some of the other large European geographic projects.

7 - Italy

12 - France
10 - Germany
2 - Switzerland
2 - Austria
2 - Spain
1 - Belgium

5 - Ukraine
2 - Poland
1 - Belarus
1 - Latvia
1 - Hungary

6 - England
4 - Ireland
3 - Scotland
1 - Sweden

Let me know you I'm missing and where to look.

Diana
05-17-2013, 04:11 PM
Thank you Mike for starting a thread on Z56. As I mentioned on the other thread, I believe Italy is extremely under sampled. Ftdna also has a few other projects, ie: the Italy project and others you have mentioned but for the data your looking for I assume the U152 would be the best. I think you left out the participants from the 1K genomes project from Tuscany whom are also Z56. It would probably be more of a tie with France and Germany coming in 3rd I would think.

Diana
08-09-2013, 06:10 PM
Just adding this as it is relevant to Z56..

596

"At the opposite end of the spectrum we have L2 and Z36 which make up only small percentages of both U152 and Sardinian males overall. It is difficult to see either in the context of large migrations from the peninsula. Z56 is slightly more frequent than L2 and it's Z144/Z145 subclade makes up the majority of Z56. Sardinian U152, where a single subclade is so dominant (Z192), contrasts with the completely diverse scenario in Tuscany, where no single subclade is found in dominant numbers over another. U152 frequency in Tuscany is also several times greater than in Sardinia based on 1000 Genomes data and that of the recent Boattini et al. study (see here: http://www.r1b.org/?page_id=242)."

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1180-U152-in-Sardinia-Francalacci-et-al-2013

abds
04-06-2015, 06:54 PM
Just adding this as it is relevant to Z56..

596

"At the opposite end of the spectrum we have L2 and Z36 which make up only small percentages of both U152 and Sardinian males overall. It is difficult to see either in the context of large migrations from the peninsula. Z56 is slightly more frequent than L2 and it's Z144/Z145 subclade makes up the majority of Z56. Sardinian U152, where a single subclade is so dominant (Z192), contrasts with the completely diverse scenario in Tuscany, where no single subclade is found in dominant numbers over another. U152 frequency in Tuscany is also several times greater than in Sardinia based on 1000 Genomes data and that of the recent Boattini et al. study (see here: http://www.r1b.org/?page_id=242)."

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1180-U152-in-Sardinia-Francalacci-et-al-2013

Ciao do you have the sample of you father ? :)

i m from Rome to and i m u152 z56 z145 & Z146

i have a big y test and i join also yfull it will be intersting to compare my sample with the sample of you father

ciao

Titus Valerius
05-28-2015, 02:29 PM
Hi all!
I just got the results of my friend F. Bernardini , I know his earliest known ancestor was Domenico Bernardini from Sarzana (La Spezia, ITA) b. 1690 d. 1773. He has DYS 385 11-17 and DYS 492 14 . I think he is probably U152 Z56. the next test is for Z72. On U152 project I noticed Mr. Panara has DYS 385 11-17, it seems interesting!

Titus Valerius
05-28-2015, 02:59 PM
Probably He will test Z71 as well

Diana
05-28-2015, 03:44 PM
Probably He will test Z71 as well

Ciao Marco,

These must be new available tests? Or is he taking the full Y? I am considering upgrading, so far my testing hasn't brought me any matches or more conclusive information so I am happy to hear this.

abds
05-28-2015, 09:07 PM
guys a big y for u152 and more in general for r1 Group help much for create a more detailed haplotree.

Diana
05-28-2015, 09:15 PM
guys a big y for u152 and more in general for r1 Group help much for create a more detailed haplotree.

In my case it was pointless as there was nothing else to compare it to... Now that you have taken it maybe it's time..

abds
05-29-2015, 06:53 PM
I agree :)

Titus Valerius
09-19-2015, 05:26 PM
Hi all! I just got the results of a friend of mine, L. Basteri from Sarzana (La Spezia) his kit number in FTDNA IS 424509. I joined him in U152 project, because he has the Dys 492= 14 , I think he's U152 Z56.

Nino90
03-13-2018, 08:45 PM
I got Y-dna :
R1b1a1a2a1a2b1. My grandfather was born in North tuscany. And I have documented ancestors from that area from the 18th.

Titus Valerius
03-21-2018, 07:54 AM
Hi Nino90, what you mean " North Tuscany" ? Perhaps Massa-Carrara province? Lunigiana? Because I live in La Spezia province and I have found many U152s, especially L2s, among friends of mine, myself am U152+ L2+ L20+ FGC56105+. Are you joined the U152 project ?

Titus Valerius
03-21-2018, 08:13 AM
Hi all, About Z56, I have found among my friends, one Z56* that is he's negative to all SNPs downstream of Z56. I tested him with Yseq and his STRs are on Ysearch VBG8D. Previously I have found some friends U152+ Z56+ Z71+ and Z72+.
To Diana: your father has DYS 385 a,b = 11-17 so, he's most likely positive for Z72. I advice to test him for this SNP. Even better would be if he did the Big Y

Pylsteen
05-09-2018, 08:22 PM
Two "basal" Z56+ Z43- samples from South France and Italy now form a clade together sharing three SNPs (Y131941 etc.) according to Alex Williamson's tree.

Kratos
05-15-2018, 06:38 AM
Hi there,

I've tested with 23andme, which gave me P312 as the maximum they could go. I then used both Mosley and Immanuel website to check if they could go downstream. Both matched on S47, which is part of U152-Z56.

Do you know anything about this subclad which belongs to Z56? Which population carried this and where can I find today most of its carriers?

Pylsteen
05-15-2018, 08:49 AM
Hi there,

I've tested with 23andme, which gave me P312 as the maximum they could go. I then used both Mosley and Immanuel website to check if they could go downstream. Both matched on S47, which is part of U152-Z56.

Do you know anything about this subclad which belongs to Z56? Which population carried this and where can I find today most of its carriers?

Hi, I believe I have just mailed you.

my interpretation is as follows (based on current data, this may change of course with future data)

S47 originated ca. 2000-1700 BC. It is spread today in Great Britain, South France, South Germany, Italy, Spain, etc.
It seems to me most likely that it initially spread from the Western Alps to Southern France. It probably spread with several people, such as Celts or their ancestors with archaeological cultures like Urnfield, Hallstatt or La Tène. In the Roman age and later, the group may have spread even further across Europe.


I am curious to your y-dna predictions from Morley and Immanuel; in particular, a positive result for SNPs U152, Z56 (or Z43) or other SNPs in between P312 and S47 would be necessary to be certain of S47, otherwise it may be a false positive.

Kratos
05-15-2018, 09:48 AM
Hi, I believe I have just mailed you.

my interpretation is as follows (based on current data, this may change of course with future data)

S47 originated ca. 2000-1700 BC. It is spread today in Great Britain, South France, South Germany, Italy, Spain, etc.
It seems to me most likely that it initially spread from the Western Alps to Southern France. It probably spread with several people, such as Celts or their ancestors with archaeological cultures like Urnfield, Hallstatt or La Tène. In the Roman age and later, the group may have spread even further across Europe.


I am curious to your y-dna predictions from Morley and Immanuel; in particular, a positive result for SNPs U152, Z56 (or Z43) or other SNPs in between P312 and S47 would be necessary to be certain of S47, otherwise it may be a false positive.

Thanks. I don't think I've received any email, but I saw your reply. I'm attaching here a screenshot of Morley https://ufile.io/4w84l[/IMG and now that I read your reply, it might be a false positive, let me know what you think. thanks

ansel
05-15-2018, 02:04 PM
Pylsteen lol you sent the mail to me , thanks :)B)

Pylsteen
05-15-2018, 02:13 PM
Thanks. I don't think I've received any email, but I saw your reply. I'm attaching here a screenshot of Morley (..) and now that I read your reply, it might be a false positive, let me know what you think. thanks

Morley bases its prediction on the SNPs in your raw data; both the green and red coloured SNPs have been tested in your data; U152 is coloured red however; this means that you seem to be negative for U152, I would keep your Y-DNA at P312 for now; if you are indeed negative for U152, S47 must be a false positive. I remember that S47 also was often a false positive with LivingDNA's chip.

ansel
05-16-2018, 07:48 AM
Morley bases its prediction on the SNPs in your raw data; both the green and red coloured SNPs have been tested in your data; U152 is coloured red however; this means that you seem to be negative for U152, I would keep your Y-DNA at P312 for now; if you are indeed negative for U152, S47 must be a false positive. I remember that S47 also was often a false positive with LivingDNA's chip.

Kratos mentioned he made the test at 23 and me , there is two tools for identifying haplogroup regard 23 and me , the first tool is 23 and Me To YSNPs , the second one is Genetic Genealogy Kit or shortcut GGK , the question is : if using both tools , could it be much accurate rather than using Morley ? , would it give the right haplogroup of the Ydna ?

Kratos
05-16-2018, 11:57 AM
Kratos mentioned he made the test at 23 and me , there is two tools for identifying haplogroup regard 23 and me , the first tool is 23 and Me To YSNPs , the second one is Genetic Genealogy Kit or shortcut GGK , the question is : if using both tools , could it be much accurate rather than using Morley ? , would it give the right haplogroup of the Ydna ?

I used the GGK tool and it gave me the same S47 positive. Pylsteen might be right in saying it is a false positive, because my U152 was negative (red). The interesting part is that 23andme SNP extract doesn't show P312, neither S116, thus both Morley and GGK couldn't find them for testing.

ansel
05-16-2018, 12:16 PM
I used the GGK tool and it gave me the same S47 positive. Pylsteen might be right in saying it is a false positive, because my U152 was negative (red). The interesting part is that 23andme SNP extract doesn't show P312, neither S116, thus both Morley and GGK couldn't find them for testing.

did the GGK show you : R1b1a2a1a2b3b ??

Kratos
05-16-2018, 02:37 PM
did the GGK show you : R1b1a2a1a2b3b ??

Yes, it calculates all down and identifies R1b1a2a1a2b3b as the Y Haplogroup and then gives me a positive (green) for S47. But negative for the one above it: R1b1a2a1a2b.

I'm not experienced on how subclades work, so not sure if they all need to be positives as they go down. If this is the case, then either S47 is a false positive or U152 is a false negative.

ansel
05-16-2018, 02:58 PM
Yes, it calculates all down and identifies R1b1a2a1a2b3b as the Y Haplogroup and then gives me a positive (green) for S47. But negative for the one above it: R1b1a2a1a2b.

I'm not experienced on how subclades work, so not sure if they all need to be positives as they go down. If this is the case, then either S47 is a false positive or U152 is a false negative.
/
did you make other test than 23 and me? , maybe FTDNA Y-111 could give more accurate results ?

Kratos
05-16-2018, 05:35 PM
/
did you make other test than 23 and me? , maybe FTDNA Y-111 could give more accurate results ?

I'm thinking in doing one company more, just not to have only 23andme results. thanks

Nino90
05-16-2018, 06:20 PM
I am R-L2 but showed positive for R1b1a2a1a2b3b S47 on Morleys test.

Acque agitate
05-16-2018, 08:55 PM
I am R-L2 but showed positive for R1b1a2a1a2b3b S47 on Morleys test.

The people who belong to S47, unlike you, are L2-. Therefore I think you are false positive for S47

Nino90
05-17-2018, 08:01 AM
The people who belong to S47, unlike you, are L2-. Therefore I think you are false positive for S47

What is the diffrence?

Acque agitate
05-17-2018, 09:25 AM
What is the diffrence?

Ciao Nino,
to check if you really are S47+ (highly unlikely hypothesis in case you are really L2+) you can execute these instructions:
go to the "Raw data explore" page of the "Tools" menu and then enter these strings:
1) "rs2566671" - refers to L2: Ancestral C, Derived T;
1) "rs757560063" - refers to S47: Ancestral C, Derived T;

Let me Know

Nino90
05-17-2018, 09:50 AM
Salve!
I checked on 23andme. AndIt said just T on both. Not Derived.

Kratos
05-17-2018, 12:10 PM
Ciao Nino,
to check if you really are S47+ (highly unlikely hypothesis in case you are really L2+) you can execute these instructions:
go to the "Raw data explore" page of the "Tools" menu and then enter these strings:
1) "rs2566671" - refers to L2: Ancestral C, Derived T;
1) "rs757560063" - refers to S47: Ancestral C, Derived T;

Let me Know

I'm C on rs2566671 and then T on rs757560063. What does this mean then? Morley gave me positive on S47 and negative on U152, so wondering now what is C and T. thanks

Acque agitate
05-17-2018, 01:26 PM
I'm C on rs2566671 and then T on rs757560063. What does this mean then? Morley gave me positive on S47 and negative on U152, so wondering now what is C and T. thanks

Ciao Kratos,
to check if you really are U152- (if you are S47+ you should be U152+ unless you have possible but unlikely situations), you can execute these instructions:
go to the "Raw data explore" page of the "Tools" menu and then enter these strings:
1) "rs1236440" - refers to L2: Ancestral C, Derived T;

Let me Know

Acque agitate
05-17-2018, 01:44 PM
Salve!
I checked on 23andme. AndIt said just T on both. Not Derived.

Ciao Nino,
if you have verified that, both in rs2566671 and in rs757560063, you are having T (or "Derived") means that you are L2+ and S47+. There are therefore 3 possibilities:

1) In one of the 2 snp 23andme.com has made a reading error (hypothesis in my opinion more probable);
2) You are R1b-L2+ and for a very unlikely event in your paternal line the S47+ mutation has also developed (possible but unlikely circumstance). In this case you belong to a subgroup of L2 not yet known;
3) You are R1b-S47+ and for a very unlikely event in your paternal line the L2+ mutation has also developed (possible but unlikely circumstance). In this case you belong to a subset of S47 to search;

Given what Kratos reported (he reported to be U152- and S47 +) I think it is probable that the 23andme.com has some problems reading S47.

Dear Nino, regardless of all this, you just have to run an upgrade test, I recommend the "R1b-U152 Superclade Panel" of Yseq.net ... your past is in your hands, or better in your wallet (with less than € 90 you solve your doubts ...)

:biggrin1::amen::biggrin1:

Kratos
05-17-2018, 04:22 PM
Ciao Kratos,
to check if you really are U152- (if you are S47+ you should be U152+ unless you have possible but unlikely situations), you can execute these instructions:
go to the "Raw data explore" page of the "Tools" menu and then enter these strings:
1) "rs1236440" - refers to L2: Ancestral C, Derived T;

Let me Know

Hi Acque,

It got me as C. I assume this is negative, right?

Acque agitate
05-21-2018, 10:25 AM
Hi Acque,

It got me as C. I assume this is negative, right?


Up to now it has emerged that the people who belong to S47+ are:
U152+, L2-, S47+

Nino90 told us that since the last test of 23andme.com it has emerged that he is:
U152+, L2+, S47+

While Kratos told us that it is:
P312+, U152-, L2-, S47+

I'm afraid the new V5 chip from 23andme.com has some reading problems in S47 and so probably:
Nino90 is simply U152+, L2+, S47- (hence, R1b-L2)
Kratos is simply P312+, U152-, L2-, S47- (hence, R1b-P312).

What do you think about it?

G Livesey
05-25-2018, 12:53 AM
Hello all.

I've just joined Anthrogenica and found this thread.

I am U152>Z56>Z43>Z48/S47>Z44>BY3949

My family is from the northwest of England and am very interested to find out more about my haplogroup which seems to be strong in the alpine area. As I understand it, Z56 is very common in northern Italy??

As I am on the S47 line of Z56, I am personally interested to find out where this particular line is from.

Nino90
05-25-2018, 07:36 AM
Hello all.

I've just joined Anthrogenica and found this thread.

I am U152>Z56>Z43>Z48/S47>Z44>BY3949

My family is from the northwest of England and am very interested to find out more about my haplogroup which seems to be strong in the alpine area. As I understand it, Z56 is very common in northern Italy??

As I am on the S47 line of Z56, I am personally interested to find out where this particular line is from.

What test did you do?
Could be "roman"?

G Livesey
05-25-2018, 11:17 AM
What test did you do?
Could be "roman"?

I've done the BigY with FTDNA.

Nino90
05-25-2018, 12:45 PM
I've done the BigY with FTDNA.

Thanks! I Think I gonna do it aswell in the future.

Acque agitate
05-25-2018, 01:50 PM
Thanks! I Think I gonna do it aswell in the future.

I hope you will take this decision soon. I am very curious to know which L2 subgroup you belong to.
The day you decide, let us know ...

R.Rocca
05-26-2018, 01:58 AM
I hope you will take this decision soon. I am very curious to know which L2 subgroup you belong to.
The day you decide, let us know ...

Same here!

Mastaldo
06-19-2018, 07:00 PM
I've done the BigY with FTDNA.

How much does it cost?

Ravai
06-19-2018, 08:45 PM
How much does it cost?

Hello Mastaldo,

BigY costs $649 USD. Sometimes they do discount, for example, for father's day in the USA, they leave it at $ 499, just yesterday was the last day with this price. Now you should wait for another offer. By the way, join in the U152 project:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-u152/about/background

Regards

G Livesey
06-22-2018, 12:24 AM
How much does it cost?

At the moment the price is $649.00 usd. Occasionally FTDNA have a sale (one closed recently), and it is at a reduced price. It is now called the BigY500 as it now includes 500 STR markers. In the past you had to do a STR marker test before ordering a BigY.

I can see that you are R-Z56. What tests have had done so far? If you haven't done so yet, you can join the R-U152 and or R-Z56 projects at FTDNA and get more advice.

Acque agitate
06-22-2018, 09:46 AM
How much does it cost?

Ciao Mastaldo,
I saw that you indicated that you live in the Bassa Val d'Elsa. Are you referring to the Empoli area?
Which company did you perform the test with? I ask you this question because I do not seem to have found you in the FtDna project R1b-U152.
I inform you that Z56 is widespread in the Tuscan area especially as regards the group Z144 that currently officially divides into 2 subgroups but that contains al least a further subgroup of which the first markers have not yet been identified (the only known champion is "ERS257071", found in Sardinia, and probably other unpublished samples that I know).
Each Tuscan champion who performs the Z56 test is a good opportunity to find new subgroups, if you decide to do so, You will certainly contribute to the understanding of our origins. If you decide positively let us know ...

Pylsteen
07-14-2018, 10:57 AM
I was reviewing the distribution and clade ages of the main clades of Z56>Z43, and made this map of their main approximate distribution around 1000 BC, reflecting my current view; this will change whenever new data suggests otherwise.
Note that this predates major expansions of the Hallstatt/La Tène cultures. Also, early split offs from these subclades outside of the marked areas are very well possible
(e.g. Sardinia harbours several early split offs; this island has been researched quite well, in contrast to France).

24625

My suggestions for the prehistory of these 5 branches:

Probably developed the late Rhine Bell Beaker territory:
BY42722: discovered this year, age ca. 1700BC. Members in West-Germany and Wallonia.
BY3538: nucleus is in West-Germany/North-France; also members elsewhere; has probably also a Rhine Bell Beaker origin.

Probably developed in Eastern France, was likely present in the RSFO Urnfield group, subsequently spread with Hallstatt and La Tène:
BY3544: members in France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, England, and Spain. Contains two Ashkenazi branches.
Z145: members in France, Germany, Luxemburg, Netherlands, England, Italy. Contains one Ashkenazi branch. At the moment, I think that the predominantly Italian branch Z72 (age ca. 250 BC) spread with the Gaulish invasion of Northern Italy, since its closest Z72-negative relative is found in Eastern France.

Probably developed along the Rhône/SE France:
S47: members in SE France, Italy, Spain, England, S-Germany, and some elsewhere in Europe.

Its ancestor Z43 (age ca. 2400-2000 BC) probably started to spread in the several Bell Beaker groups near the Upper Rhine, Saône and Rhone.

G Livesey
07-15-2018, 12:34 PM
I was reviewing the distribution and clade ages of the main clades of Z56>Z43, and made this map of their main approximate distribution around 1000 BC, reflecting my current view; this will change whenever new data suggests otherwise.
Note that this predates major expansions of the Hallstatt/La Tène cultures. Also, early split offs from these subclades outside of the marked areas are very well possible
(e.g. Sardinia harbours several early split offs; this island has been researched quite well, in contrast to France).

24625

My suggestions for the prehistory of these 5 branches:

Probably developed the late Rhine Bell Beaker territory:
BY42722: discovered this year, age ca. 1700BC. Members in West-Germany and Wallonia.
BY3538: nucleus is in West-Germany/North-France; also members elsewhere; has probably also a Rhine Bell Beaker origin.

Probably developed in Eastern France, was likely present in the RSFO Urnfield group, subsequently spread with Hallstatt and La Tène:
BY3544: members in France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, England, and Spain. Contains two Ashkenazi branches.
Z145: members in France, Germany, Luxemburg, Netherlands, England, Italy. Contains one Ashkenazi branch. At the moment, I think that the predominantly Italian branch Z72 (age ca. 250 BC) spread with the Gaulish invasion of Northern Italy, since its closest Z72-negative relative is found in Eastern France.

Probably developed along the Rhône/SE France:
S47: members in SE France, Italy, Spain, England, S-Germany, and some elsewhere in Europe.

Its ancestor Z43 (age ca. 2400-2000 BC) probably started to spread in the several Bell Beaker groups near the Upper Rhine, Saône and Rhone.

I found your post interesting. I haven't come across a theory about Z56 subclade origins before so thanks for the post. I had imagined them probably a bit more to the southeast and migrating into the areas on your map at a later period, except for S47 which I thought might have come out of Italy. As you said, as we get more data they will be re-assessed.

Do you know of any data of the Z56 subclades in Italy? It could be interesting to see if some of your northern subclades are to the north of Italy and say S47 more towards the Tuscany area.

mec_venitien
07-17-2018, 01:34 PM
Hello!
I belong to Z56* as well but I’ve been tested negative to all the branches within it.

G Livesey
07-18-2018, 03:25 AM
Hello!
I belong to Z56* as well but I’ve been tested negative to all the branches within it.

Hi,

I suggest you join the R-Z56 and R-U152 projects at FTDNA. You may then obtain some help with what your next options are.

mbreedlove49
07-31-2018, 05:49 PM
I was reviewing the distribution and clade ages of the main clades of Z56>Z43, and made this map of their main approximate distribution around 1000 BC, reflecting my current view; this will change whenever new data suggests otherwise.
Note that this predates major expansions of the Hallstatt/La Tène cultures. Also, early split offs from these subclades outside of the marked areas are very well possible
(e.g. Sardinia harbours several early split offs; this island has been researched quite well, in contrast to France).

24625

My suggestions for the prehistory of these 5 branches:

Probably developed the late Rhine Bell Beaker territory:
BY42722: discovered this year, age ca. 1700BC. Members in West-Germany and Wallonia.
BY3538: nucleus is in West-Germany/North-France; also members elsewhere; has probably also a Rhine Bell Beaker origin.

Probably developed in Eastern France, was likely present in the RSFO Urnfield group, subsequently spread with Hallstatt and La Tène:
BY3544: members in France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, England, and Spain. Contains two Ashkenazi branches.
Z145: members in France, Germany, Luxemburg, Netherlands, England, Italy. Contains one Ashkenazi branch. At the moment, I think that the predominantly Italian branch Z72 (age ca. 250 BC) spread with the Gaulish invasion of Northern Italy, since its closest Z72-negative relative is found in Eastern France.

Probably developed along the Rhône/SE France:
S47: members in SE France, Italy, Spain, England, S-Germany, and some elsewhere in Europe.

Its ancestor Z43 (age ca. 2400-2000 BC) probably started to spread in the several Bell Beaker groups near the Upper Rhine, Saône and Rhone.

Hello Pylsteen. I'm on the same branch of Z56 as Glenn Livesey (Z56>S47>Z44>CTS1145). Given your dating of S47 in NW Italy - SE France at ~1000 BC, would I be correct in assuming that there are some archaeological YDNA test results in your estimate? I ask because I would like to quote your research in a brief, generalized history of S47 for dispersal to a group (~60) of FTDNA testers (largely STR only) with hopes of encouraging some of them to test BigY.

Pylsteen
07-31-2018, 06:44 PM
Hi, I based this estimated spread of the branches ca. 1000 BC on the MRCA's given by the samples from the U152 project in FTDNA where I do the Z56 part. For each subbranch I tried to find an estimated place of origin, and used its age, then worked back to the larger branches. No archaeological samples were used.

S47 must have originated ca. 2000 BC (rough estimate).

To be more careful than in what I posted before, at least for the BY3952 branch, an origin around the Rhône area seems likely, considering the spread of its current members (except the (relatively recent) FGC62167 branch, that is also found in Sweden and Russia).

I am less sure about the other main branch BY3949, which is your British branch. It may also have originated in this Rhône area, but it may be possible too that it splitted off slightly more to the north and spread later with Hallstatt/La Tène Celts/Gauls, Gallo-Romans or Normans to GB.

It will be good news if more S47 members feel encouraged to test BigY.

mbreedlove49
07-31-2018, 07:45 PM
Thanks. Glenn found a gentleman of Spanish descent, a Mexican national, who traces his ancestry to Spain 1605. He matches Glenn at a GD of 2 for 25 STR markers. Since he doesn't show BigY, we are guessing he took a Z43 pack test and matched to the four of us (with BigY) testing Z44 and below at CTS8949, which we all have. This would seem to indicate an area of common origin perhaps after 1000 BC. There is another Mexican on Bigtree that is Z44 but does not match us at a more recent SNP. Glenn is following up on another gentleman named Bertani whose STRs match at the same level. Surname Bertani seems to have a high concentration in NW Italy. It would be very exciting to be able to reasonably prove a core area with still resident Italians and out-migrants to Spain and NW Britain. All 70 of the names with STR marker values I gathered came from gleaning the FTDNA project pages looking for common STR value assemblages in the first 25 markers. Some seem to have tested positive for Z43 or S47 with various packs. I believe most if not all would test Z44 and below. If we can be of help to your work (and vice versa) I for one would love it. I think Glenn would agree.

Pylsteen
07-31-2018, 08:05 PM
One thing that may be of help: it seems that all Z48+ members show DYS455 = 10 instead of 11.

mbreedlove49
07-31-2018, 10:17 PM
Yes. Every one of our 70 samples has a dys455 value of 10. At 37 markers, every test for markers having an estimated mutation rate less than 0.00056 (7 markers) equals the same value except dys454, where values of 11 and 12 divide our group about evenly. BigY tests from members of each value show the same SNPs well into those immediately below Z44. For markers 38-67, there are no value deviations for the 17 markers with mutation rates less than 0.00056.

With the addition of some Spanish and Italian members likely to be Z56>S47>Z44, I say we would make a great test group for FTDNA. How many subclades with a common source area would that yield? Perhaps FTDNA could shell out free BigY tests in the name of science and advertizing for 30 or 50 agreeable men to prove the real value of their testing. A foregone $15000-25000 could give them back a real bonus. Insert a smile here ... but I'm serious.

Pylsteen
08-16-2018, 08:10 PM
Hello!
I belong to Z56* as well but I’ve been tested negative to all the branches within it.

On Alex Williamson's tree (https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2153&star=false) there is now one branch that is Z43-negative with a French and Italian. They share three SNPs. They probably share a common ancestor ca. 2000/2100 BC depending on the age of Z56.

G Livesey
08-22-2018, 12:35 AM
One thing that may be of help: it seems that all Z48+ members show DYS455 = 10 instead of 11.


I believe all 70+ are R-Z44 and have DYS492 = 13 also.

G Livesey
08-27-2018, 10:29 AM
One thing that may be of help: it seems that all Z48+ members show DYS455 = 10 instead of 11.

Just got a new member who is Z48+ but is on the BY3952 branch with a SNP of S4634 from Italy. He is also DYS455 = 10.

His DYS492 = 14 which differs from the Z44 whose DYS492 = 13.

mec_venitien
08-28-2018, 10:07 PM
Hey ! Thanks a lot ! Sorry for the late reply.
I’m already part of these groups on FTDNA but honestly don’t know what my next options are.
I’ve been tested with Yseq and according to their results my final haplogroup is R1b-Z56*, and
all known downstream branches have been confirmed negative.

Titus Valerius
09-03-2018, 09:34 AM
Thanks. Glenn found a gentleman of Spanish descent, a Mexican national, who traces his ancestry to Spain 1605. He matches Glenn at a GD of 2 for 25 STR markers. Since he doesn't show BigY, we are guessing he took a Z43 pack test and matched to the four of us (with BigY) testing Z44 and below at CTS8949, which we all have. This would seem to indicate an area of common origin perhaps after 1000 BC. There is another Mexican on Bigtree that is Z44 but does not match us at a more recent SNP. Glenn is following up on another gentleman named Bertani whose STRs match at the same level. Surname Bertani seems to have a high concentration in NW Italy. It would be very exciting to be able to reasonably prove a core area with still resident Italians and out-migrants to Spain and NW Britain. All 70 of the names with STR marker values I gathered came from gleaning the FTDNA project pages looking for common STR value assemblages in the first 25 markers. Some seem to have tested positive for Z43 or S47 with various packs. I believe most if not all would test Z44 and below. If we can be of help to your work (and vice versa) I for one would love it. I think Glenn would agree.

Hi mbreedlove49, some time ago I uploaded the STRs data of Mr. Bertani on ysearch, but now this website is out.
These are his STRs: 14-24-14-11-11-11-12-12-13-13-13-29-17-9-10-11-11-25-15-19-30-15-15-17-17-10-11-19-23-15-15-18-17-36-38-14-12 is it the same Bertani? I tested him with YSEQ, but I do not know if he's U152+ or not, because he didn't want do any more tests!

Titus Valerius
09-03-2018, 09:46 AM
Hey ! Thanks a lot ! Sorry for the late reply.
I’m already part of these groups on FTDNA but honestly don’t know what my next options are.
I’ve been tested with Yseq and according to their results my final haplogroup is R1b-Z56*, and
all known downstream branches have been confirmed negative.

Hi mec_veniten, I have tested two friends of mine with Yseq and they are R1b U152+ Z56* that is, all known downstream branches have been confirmed negative.
These are their STRs:
Taravacci P. 14-24-14-11-11-14-12-12-12-13-13-29-17-9-9-11-11-25-15-19-30-15-15-17-17-11-11-19-19-15-15-19-17-37-39-12-12
Battiglia M. 13-24-14-11-11-15-12-12-11-13-14-30-17-9-10-11-11-25-15-19-30-15-16-16-17-12-11- 19-23-16-15-20-18-37-39-12-12
Let me know your genetic distance. Regards.

mec_venitien
09-03-2018, 10:00 AM
Hello Titus Valerius,

Can you tell me where these guys are from in Italy please?
Concerning my genetic distances I just have one guy from the Alto pian’ di Asiago ( he is of Cimbri Ancestry apparently) We match on 34 out of 37 markers.
Thanks.

Titus Valerius
09-03-2018, 12:05 PM
Hi mec_venitien, they are from La Spezia province , Eastern Liguria, just like me!

Titus Valerius
09-12-2018, 07:40 PM
Hi all, I just got the result of Y131941 and my friends (Taravacci and Battiglia) are confirmed negative!

ArmandoR1b
10-06-2018, 11:54 PM
Yes, it calculates all down and identifies R1b1a2a1a2b3b as the Y Haplogroup and then gives me a positive (green) for S47. But negative for the one above it: R1b1a2a1a2b.

I'm not experienced on how subclades work, so not sure if they all need to be positives as they go down. If this is the case, then either S47 is a false positive or U152 is a false negative.

S47 is a false positive in the 23andme v5 test. All 23andme v5 testers get a positive result for that SNP.

Pylsteen
11-18-2018, 06:38 PM
Z56 contains three Ashkenazi branches.

The most well known is Z56>BY3544>S1523>>>L4
Now, there is some substructure within this branch because of BigY testing.
I estimate the TMRCA of L4 now at ~501 AD (CI(95) 109 AD - 893 AD).

Besides this branch, another Ashkenazi branch is Z56>BY3544>S1523>>>Y86521
I estimate the TMRCA at ~402 AD (CI(95) 197 AD - 607 AD).

(Note: I am no statistician; I used basic statistics for the estimates, the dates are based on counting mutations, assuming a fixed rate of 144y/mutation (in reality, because these are subbranches, some variety is expected) and incorporating genealogical information to the dates; new results and more advanced statistics may change these estimates).

It was also known that another Ashkenazi branch existed below Z56>Z145>BY28794>PF6582>BY3953>FGC36897,FGC36903>...
New BigY results show that this branch is a separate daughter branch of FGC36897,FGC36903.
More BigY's for this branch are underway. It is my guess that it also emerged in the early Middle Ages.

It is difficult to tell where these branches ended up among the Ashkenazim. They all split off ca. 1500-1000 BC, so there's a gap of almost 2000 years.
If these branches initially behaved the same as their sister branches, that IMO seem mostly spread because of Hallstatt/La Tène,
then France, the Upper Rhine region, the Alpes and Northern Italy are all possible places of origin for these Ashkenazi branches IMO.

G Livesey
11-18-2018, 09:51 PM
Z56 contains three Ashkenazi branches.

The most well known is Z56>BY3544>S1523>>>L4
Now, there is some substructure within this branch because of BigY testing.
I estimate the TMRCA of L4 now at ~501 AD (CI(95) 109 AD - 893 AD).

Besides this branch, another Ashkenazi branch is Z56>BY3544>S1523>>>Y86521
I estimate the TMRCA at ~402 AD (CI(95) 197 AD - 607 AD).

(Note: I am no statistician; I used basic statistics for the estimates, the dates are based on counting mutations, assuming a fixed rate of 144y/mutation (in reality, because these are subbranches, some variety is expected) and incorporating genealogical information to the dates; new results and more advanced statistics may change these estimates).

It was also known that another Ashkenazi branch existed below Z56>Z145>BY28794>PF6582>BY3953>FGC36897,FGC36903>...
New BigY results show that this branch is a separate daughter branch of FGC36897,FGC36903.
More BigY's for this branch are underway. It is my guess that it also emerged in the early Middle Ages.

It is difficult to tell where these branches ended up among the Ashkenazim. They all split off ca. 1500-1000 BC, so there's a gap of almost 2000 years.
If these branches initially behaved the same as their sister branches, that IMO seem mostly spread because of Hallstatt/La Tène,
then France, the Upper Rhine region, the Alpes and Northern Italy are all possible places of origin for these Ashkenazi branches IMO.

Thanks for the update and new information. Interesting point regarding the 2000 year gap.

Good to see more BigY tests are being taken.

G Livesey
11-20-2018, 07:43 AM
One thing that may be of help: it seems that all Z48+ members show DYS455 = 10 instead of 11.

Just confirming this with another's result. This time though with a sample of Spanish ancestry. It looks solid with samples from Britain, Italy and now Spain.

G Livesey
11-20-2018, 07:49 AM
I have a match at 67 markers with a distance of 11. I know it is beyond the match limit of 7 and is before surnames or before genealogical time frame. But is there a way to give an approximate time to a common ancestor? A ball park number?

mbreedlove49
12-01-2018, 10:14 PM
Hi mbreedlove49, some time ago I uploaded the STRs data of Mr. Bertani on ysearch, but now this website is out.
These are his STRs: 14-24-14-11-11-11-12-12-13-13-13-29-17-9-10-11-11-25-15-19-30-15-15-17-17-10-11-19-23-15-15-18-17-36-38-14-12 is it the same Bertani? I tested him with YSEQ, but I do not know if he's U152+ or not, because he didn't want do any more tests!

Just saw this ... and thanks TV, but that's not our guy. I save the values and compared. Too many mismatches.

mbreedlove49
12-01-2018, 10:40 PM
Hey ! Thanks a lot ! Sorry for the late reply.
I’m already part of these groups on FTDNA but honestly don’t know what my next options are.
I’ve been tested with Yseq and according to their results my final haplogroup is R1b-Z56*, and
all known downstream branches have been confirmed negative.

It may not be much comfort, but your line may be the progenitor of all us other sub-Z56 beings. Or maybe you have currently "personal" SNPs that are just waiting for a match to a new tester, thus starting a whole new branch. Cote d'Azur is certainly in the right area of SE France that already has other Z56 members. Join our Familytree Z56 and subclades project and see what happens.

Cassoulet
12-16-2018, 12:35 AM
Hey ! Thanks a lot ! Sorry for the late reply.
I’m already part of these groups on FTDNA but honestly don’t know what my next options are.
I’ve been tested with Yseq and according to their results my final haplogroup is R1b-Z56*, and
all known downstream branches have been confirmed negative.

Well YSEQ doesn't test for the BY3538 subclade for example, they do test for BY3958 but it's a downstream of BY3538 so there is big chance you could be BY3538+.

G Livesey
03-21-2019, 08:54 AM
Recent BigY testing has helped expand the R-S47>Z48>Z44 branch of R-Z56.

Where we once had a large block R-BY3949 of 21 SNP's, we now have a block of 10. Also 5 surnames that shared this block have been separated into 4 branches with new SNP's. These surnames are all British.

In the last month R-Z44 has also obtained it's first non-British BigY results. We now have a branch with a block of 34 SNP's from NW Spain of a father and son as well as a new block of over 22 presently unnamed variants from a BigY test of Italian origin. Interestingly for the British is the fact that of the original 21 SNP's in the R-BY3949 block, 11 are shared with the Italian and only 5 with the Spanish one.

Titus Valerius
03-21-2019, 09:43 PM
Hi all,
I found the third Z56* in my area ( La Spezia Province- Eastern Liguria ) They are negative to all SNPs downstream of Z56. Here are their STRs
Pietro T. 14-24-14-11-11-14-12-12-12-13-13-29-17-9-9-11-11-25-15-19-30-15-15-17-17-11-11-19-19-15-15-19-17-37-39-12-12
Franco L.
13-24-14-11-11-11-12-12-12-13-13-30-17-9-10-11-11-25-15-19-29-15-16-16-17-11-11- 19-23-15-15-19-18-37-38-12-13
Mario B.
13-24-14-11-11-15-12-12-11-13-14-30-17-9-10-11-11-25-15-19-30-15-16-16-17-12-11- 19-23-16-15-20-18-37-39-12-12

G Livesey
05-25-2019, 02:48 AM
R-Z56 Project has reached 40 members. :)

On the FTDNA Public Haplotree R-Z56 has 88 downstream branches.
R-Z145 - 40
R-FT15337 - 24
R-S47;Z46 - 15
R-BY3538 - 3

Hopefully we can grow this as more BigY results come in.

Kellebel
10-03-2019, 03:46 PM
I'm replying here, to not disturb the other thread. I didn't want to create a separate thread either and thought this would be the best place.


Yes Dutch Brabant, 17th century. It wouldn't surprise me if it had arrived there slowly from further south during the middle ages. My specific paternal lineage dating to the first millennium BC also has French and English families, as I have observed at FTDNA, where I co-admin the Z56 part in the U152 project. In my case, I think Gauls (Belgae?) may have been the source.

I think the Belgae would be quite plausible. Do you have any idea of what the Y DNA distribution must have been like regarding Germanic Belgae vs the more Celtic ones? And is there some visible pattern today regarding Z56 within Belgium/Southern Netherlands?


Latinized names were often adopted by people with a religious or scientific profession; it was the language used in science (and church) so it showed they had learned quite a bit.

That explains why they all preferred the Latin form over the Italian one.

Pylsteen
10-03-2019, 05:08 PM
I'm replying here, to not disturb the other thread. I didn't want to create a separate thread either and thought this would be the best place.



I think the Belgae would be quite plausible. Do you have any idea of what the Y DNA distribution must have been like regarding Germanic Belgae vs the more Celtic ones? And is there some visible pattern today regarding Z56 within Belgium/Southern Netherlands?


There is not yet a clear pattern, since there are only a few samples;
there is myself, also a Flemish person, one sample from Liege and one from Luxembourg. Probably there are more, but I haven't seen them yet.
The other "Dutch" Z56s in our project turned out to be German when I asked further.

Pylsteen
10-03-2019, 05:16 PM
Some information on the spread of Z56

Based on information provided or discussed with members from the FTDNA U152 project
that could provide a place of origin more precise than one country.
(so not all Z56's are involved (for example, in YFull, there is a huge Sardinia study in which Z56 occurs),
and there is a huge testing bias towards Britain and probably also Alsace/Lorraine).
If people were from the same family, they were counted as 1.


ITALY
Tuscany: 3
Piedmont: 2
Lombardy: 2
Liguria: 2
Emilia-Romagna: 2
Abruzzo: 2
Lazio: 2
Campania: 2
Sicily: 2
Calabria: 1
Sardinia: 1
Molise: 1
Marche: 1
Basilicata: 1
Apulia: 1

SPAIN
Cantabria: 1
Catalonia: 1
Castilia/Leon: 1

PORTUGAL
Azores: 1

FRANCE
Alsace-Lorraine: 6
Provence: 3
Champagne-Ardennes: 2
Midi-Pyrénées: 1
Poitou-Charente: 1
Franche-Comté: 1
Centre-Val-de-Loire: 1
Auvergne: 1

GERMANY:
Bavaria: 3
Nordrhein-Westfalen: 2
Niedersachsen: 2
Hessen: 1
Saarland: 1
Schwaben: 1
East Prussia: 2

BENELUX
South Dutch: 1 (Brabant)
Flanders: 1
Wallonia: 1 (Liege)
Luxembourg: 1

BRITISH ISLES:
Southeast England: 5
Southwest England: 4
Northwest England: 3
Northeast England: 1
Yorkshire: 1
East Midland: 1
East of England: 1
Channel Islands: 1
---
Wales: 1
Scotland: 4
Northern Ireland: 3
Connaught: 1

SWITZERLAND: 3
AUSTRIA: 2
SWEDEN: 1

Furthermore several samples across Eastern Europe,
especially some Ashkenazi lineages.

Kellebel
10-03-2019, 06:46 PM
There is not yet a clear pattern, since there are only a few samples;
there is myself, also a Flemish person, one sample from Liege and one from Luxembourg. Probably there are more, but I haven't seen them yet.
The other "Dutch" Z56s in our project turned out to be German when I asked further.

Haha woopsie sorry!


Some information on the spread of Z56

Based on information provided or discussed with members from the FTDNA U152 project
that could provide a place of origin more precise than one country.
(so not all Z56's are involved (for example, in YFull, there is a huge Sardinia study in which Z56 occurs),
and there is a huge testing bias towards Britain and probably also Alsace/Lorraine).
If people were from the same family, they were counted as 1.


ITALY
Tuscany: 3
Piedmont: 2
Lombardy: 2
Liguria: 2
Emilia-Romagna: 2
Abruzzo: 2
Lazio: 2
Campania: 2
Sicily: 2
Calabria: 1
Sardinia: 1
Molise: 1
Marche: 1
Basilicata: 1
Apulia: 1

SPAIN
Cantabria: 1
Catalonia: 1
Castilia/Leon: 1

PORTUGAL
Azores: 1

FRANCE
Alsace-Lorraine: 6
Provence: 3
Champagne-Ardennes: 2
Midi-Pyrénées: 1
Poitou-Charente: 1
Franche-Comté: 1
Centre-Val-de-Loire: 1
Auvergne: 1

GERMANY:
Bavaria: 3
Nordrhein-Westfalen: 2
Niedersachsen: 2
Hessen: 1
Saarland: 1
Schwaben: 1
East Prussia: 2

BENELUX
South Dutch: 1 (Brabant)
Flanders: 1
Wallonia: 1 (Liege)
Luxembourg: 1

BRITISH ISLES:
Southeast England: 5
Southwest England: 4
Northwest England: 3
Northeast England: 1
Yorkshire: 1
East Midland: 1
East of England: 1
Channel Islands: 1
---
Wales: 1
Scotland: 4
Northern Ireland: 3
Connaught: 1

SWITZERLAND: 3
AUSTRIA: 2
SWEDEN: 1

Furthermore several samples across Eastern Europe,
especially some Ashkenazi lineages.



The Alsace-Lorraine is interesting. Although the sampling wasn't ideal, the latest studies on French genetics showed Italian trace ancestries in the northeast. So do all my matches from there, aswell as east Wallonia - which is also the region in Belgium with the most R-U152 IIRC. Is it possible that there's a link there? Could it be originated from the La Tène culture perhaps? Are there any La Tène samples out there? I've searched for it the other day, but couldn't find anything.

Pylsteen
10-03-2019, 07:11 PM
Z56 dates to ca. 2200 BC. IMO, it may have originated among Bell Beaker people in Upper Germany, Eastern France or Northern Italy. There may have been some movements back-and-forth around the western Alps since that time, although Urnfield, Hallstatt and La Tene seem plausible vectors for spreading much of Z56. It probably depends on the sub-lineages too; S47 (ca. 2000/1500 BC) for example seems confined to Italy, SE France (and England); Z145 (ca. 1600 BC) is found in all areas, as is BY3544 (ca. 2000 BC), although this one seems more strong in Alsace/Germany.

Dieu
10-03-2019, 08:21 PM
Z56 dates to ca. 2200 BC. IMO, it may have originated among Bell Beaker people in Upper Germany, Eastern France or Northern Italy. There may have been some movements back-and-forth around the western Alps since that time, although Urnfield, Hallstatt and La Tene seem plausible vectors for spreading much of Z56. It probably depends on the sub-lineages too; S47 (ca. 2000/1500 BC) for example seems confined to Italy, SE France (and England); Z145 (ca. 1600 BC) is found in all areas, as is BY3544 (ca. 2000 BC), although this one seems more strong in Alsace/Germany.

what about BY3538 ? TMRCA for BY3538 is around 2700BC

Pylsteen
10-03-2019, 08:40 PM
BY3538 (or the BY3958 block) is more recent than that; YFull gives 2800 bp (ca. 850 BC). In our project, I can see it is present in Northern France and Nordrhein Westfalen; also Italians belong to this group.

Dieu
10-03-2019, 09:20 PM
BY3538 (or the BY3958 block) is more recent than that; YFull gives 2800 bp (ca. 850 BC). In our project, I can see it is present in Northern France and Nordrhein Westfalen; also Italians belong to this group.

Yes sorry I meant BP and not BC. It might be Hallstatt related ?

Pylsteen
10-04-2019, 07:19 AM
Yes sorry I meant BP and not BC. It might be Hallstatt related ?

That is a good possibility IMO.

G Livesey
11-05-2019, 12:28 PM
After receiving 3 new Big Y-700 results for 2 brothers and a Y111 match with a genetic distance of 7 we have a new R-Z43 negative subgroup, R-FT67350. A block of 33 SNP's.

The brothers are R-FT67427, a downstream block of 6 SNP's.

Nino90
11-05-2019, 01:05 PM
I may have asked this before. But I did a 23andme test ( V5 chip ) and found out that I belong to Y-dna R-L2.
What would be the best way to dig deeper?

FTDNA Big- Y ?

Acque agitate
11-05-2019, 04:48 PM
Ciao Nino90, we have heard each other several times.
Your male line originates from the Pistoia Apennines (Tuscany) but your surname is typical of the eastern part of the province of Modena (Emilia) on the border with Bologna.
In this area (the Tuscan-Emilian Apennines between Pistoia and Modena) there is a high concentration of R1b-L2+, certainly Z49- and Z367-. The studies I am performing show that many of these L2+ belong to little-known lines (I believe that when the Italians decide to carry out in-depth tests on the Y, the R1b-U152 tree will expand considerably).
For this reason I advise you to run FtDna's Big Y700 which some of my friends are doing in the province of Modena, and which is currently on offer for $ 399. Obviously you could also do the test at Yseq, but the risk of being eventually R1b-L2* is not modest (many of my Tuscan-Emilian friends were disappointed at the end of the test).
Do not forget that the panels of Yseq and the Packs of Ftdna are based on trees built mainly on Anglo-Saxon and central European testers.
It's been a long time since I hope you do a follow-up test, I hope it's the right time ... Let me know



I may have asked this before. But I did a 23andme test ( V5 chip ) and found out that I belong to Y-dna R-L2.
What would be the best way to dig deeper?

FTDNA Big- Y ?

G Livesey
11-09-2019, 03:14 AM
I believe R-Z56 now has 99 downstream branches. That's now 1 more than R-Z36. :)

That puts the group in to 2nd behind R-L2 (625)

G Livesey
09-05-2020, 10:08 PM
R-Z56 now has a new branch that is R-Z43 negative. It is BY90005 and it is the 3rd Z43 negative branch.

G Livesey
05-16-2021, 03:00 AM
44691

Now with 179 branches.
An increase of 80 in just over 18 months.

G Livesey
05-19-2021, 04:42 AM
R-Z56 has a new branch and it is the first one that is negative to all previous branches directly below Z56.

The new block is FT251936 and has 12 SNP's. Origins are France and Bulgaria.

BY3548 and PF6571 are in a separate block from which all other branches descend.