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Missouri1455
12-14-2016, 10:20 PM
How old is this haplogroup? how many years is it older than E1b1b1c1a? is it natufian as some consider it to be? at the moment i also belong to the subclade of E-V1515 would that mean my ancestors who were E moved up to the epipalethic levant as E1B1B1B2B and then moved down to Northern Ethiopia/Eritrea as E-V1515 before they crossed into Southern Arabia?

Thank you in advance

Megalophias
12-14-2016, 11:26 PM
According to Y-Full E1b1b1b2b-V1515 is about 11-14 000 years old. It is a descendant of E1b1b1b2-Z830, which is about 18-21 000 years old. E1b1b1c1a-M84 is around 7-9000 years old, but its parent M34 13-17 000 years old, and M123 is older still.

Our Natufian samples are from about 12-13 000 years ago. Two of them were tested to be Z830, most had no call for V1515 equivalent SNPs, one was negative for it. So they were definitely distantly related to V1515, but since we only have samples from one site, we don't know whether it existed in some other part of the Natufian area or not. Basically we don't know, it's possible.

Missouri1455
12-15-2016, 12:13 AM
According to Y-Full E1b1b1b2b-V1515 is about 11-14 000 years old. It is a descendant of E1b1b1b2-Z830, which is about 18-21 000 years old. E1b1b1c1a-M84 is around 7-9000 years old, but its parent M34 13-17 000 years old, and M123 is older still.

Our Natufian samples are from about 12-13 000 years ago. Two of them were tested to be Z830, most had no call for V1515 equivalent SNPs, one was negative for it. So they were definitely distantly related to V1515, but since we only have samples from one site, we don't know whether it existed in some other part of the Natufian area or not. Basically we don't know, it's possible.

This is interesting; from what i read it's believed Sabaens started settling in Southern Arabia around 2nd millennium; and E-V1515 was formed around 11th-14th Millennium which precedes 2nd millennium by 9,000-12,000 years; and the world population at the time(11th-14th millenium) was less than 1 million; so according to this our ancestors might have been one of the first people to populate Arabia.

Basically it means there was a 9,000-12,000 year gap before the arrival of the Sabaen arabs; so according to this theory there is a very high possibility that we preceded the Qahtanites/Sabaens in southern arabia by thousands of years; especially considering Eritrea's proximity to Yemen.

The other thing i found is today there are Arabians from different tribes across Arabia who's haplogroup shows up as E when the majority of their bretheren in the same tribe belong to the J1 or J2; which might draw the case that their forefathers might have formed alliances with the surrounding tribes and integrated into Qahtani or Adnani tribes with time; but the reality of it is most of these E carriers in the region are likely remnants of ancient Arabians.

E carriers in the region carry mostly 2 types of E haplogroup either the one that comes from Eritrea/Northern Ethiopia region or Levant.

Also haplogroup results in recent times prove that the majority Qahtan/Adnan tribe members belong to the J1-J2 haplogroups while a minority members of these same tribes also belong to other haplogroups and the most prominent minority is usually E1b1b1.

From my research, the semite J haplogroup in the region that makes up majority of arabian peninsula today might have been formed around 5000-6000 years ago at most which means they're basically a newly formed haplogroup rather than an old one.

As a matter of fact, the head of my own tribe holds J-FGC1698 which is only 3,000 years old, and the E-V1515 is as old as 11,000-15,000 years; so you can see the difference there.

The reason i find E-V1515 so interesting is its found in eritrea; and eritrea is right beside yemen so i believe yemen will also have this subclade in growing numbers if more people tested for it.

With time we will learn more and im hoping things will be a lot clearer for us.

kingjohn
12-15-2016, 03:54 PM
cool results maybe your haplogroup
arrived with this guy army/soldiers :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraha
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V1515/
best regards
adam

Missouri1455
12-15-2016, 04:11 PM
cool results maybe your haplogroup
arrived with this guy army/soldiers :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraha
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V1515/
best regards
adam

Abraha came before the arrival of islam which is very recent, and most people that came to yemen with abraha never really assimilated into yemeni society; they were isolated for historical/political reason; they're still identified to this day; plus abraha's descendants settled mostly as an isolated group in western yemen and im from eastern yemen; so if there was any abraha's followers they would most likely settle in western yemen.

Plus if you are a recent arrival to Yemen which means moreso 1,000-2,000 years ago it will be very hard to assimilate into society because of the stringent tribal codes that are put in place by Qahtani/Adnani tribes in the region; they were already established and strong during that time.

There's also too many arabians from prominent tribes who hold this subclade that i believe this subclade has way deeper roots in the region than only 1400 years; thats why there needs to be more studies on this case.

By the time Abraha came; the Qahtanites and Adnanites were already established in the region for almost 4000-3000 years; so my subclade origin in the region has to be way deeper than that time period.

kingjohn
12-15-2016, 04:40 PM
There's also too many arabians from prominent tribes who hold this subclade that i believe this subclade has way deeper roots in the region than only 1400 years.

dear hman92,
do you have other confirmed e-v1515 with arabian background ?
best regards
adam

Missouri1455
12-15-2016, 04:52 PM
There's also too many arabians from prominent tribes who hold this subclade that i believe this subclade has way deeper roots in the region than only 1400 years.

dear hman92,
do you have other confirmed e-v1515 with arabian background ?
best regards
adam

Kingjoh, the issue with E-V1515 subclade is its in its early phases; and people estimate it to be 10,000 years old to 20,000 years old so the details on it are not even concrete yet; and if any arabians belonged to the E haplogroup; then E-V1515 would be one of the oldest subclades to exist for arabians up to now; so this would mean that this subclade is more ancient than recent, so yes you see people claiming to belong to it from arabia but I have to establish concrete information; so it might take sometime; but for now i do believe this subclade needs to be studied thoroughly though.

From the people who usually claim to belong to this subclade, their tribes belong to the southern part of arabia so around the empty quarter down to upper hadhramout where im from; but you also have cases of scattered people from other parts of arabia too.

Lank
12-15-2016, 08:46 PM
Have you tested for any subclades beneath V1515?

To date the age of V1515 lineages in Arabia, you should at least estimate the divergence of the different Arabian clades from their African relatives (of course, some actual ancient DNA would be ideal).

For instance, if you were negative for all V1515 subclades (thus far only reported in northern/western Eritrea and one Portugese sample AFAIK), that could be consistent with a very ancient Arabian presence, although you would have to check your divergence from other V1515* carriers. On the other hand, if you were positive for M293, which is clearly associated with southeast Africa, that would be consistent with historic contacts between southeast Africa and the Arabian peninsula. You could also belong to one of many other subclades, such as V6 or V42.

Missouri1455
12-16-2016, 01:11 AM
Have you tested for any subclades beneath V1515?

To date the age of V1515 lineages in Arabia, you should at least estimate the divergence of the different Arabian clades from their African relatives (of course, some actual ancient DNA would be ideal).

For instance, if you were negative for all V1515 subclades (thus far only reported in northern/western Eritrea and one Portugese sample AFAIK), that could be consistent with a very ancient Arabian presence, although you would have to check your divergence from other V1515* carriers. On the other hand, if you were positive for M293, which is clearly associated with southeast Africa, that would be consistent with historic contacts between southeast Africa and the Arabian peninsula. You could also belong to one of many other subclades, such as V6 or V42.

I think im going to do further testing with yfull, because up to now with the info I have im viable to create a new subclade below E-V1515 but thats too early to tell.

Missouri1455
12-17-2016, 09:36 AM
Have you tested for any subclades beneath V1515?

To date the age of V1515 lineages in Arabia, you should at least estimate the divergence of the different Arabian clades from their African relatives (of course, some actual ancient DNA would be ideal).

For instance, if you were negative for all V1515 subclades (thus far only reported in northern/western Eritrea and one Portugese sample AFAIK), that could be consistent with a very ancient Arabian presence, although you would have to check your divergence from other V1515* carriers. On the other hand, if you were positive for M293, which is clearly associated with southeast Africa, that would be consistent with historic contacts between southeast Africa and the Arabian peninsula. You could also belong to one of many other subclades, such as V6 or V42.

I apologize for the duplicate comment,

Im still new to this haplogroup study but im picking up on it, anyways so i checked my pertinent SNPs and i scored negative for E1b1b1b2b1 (E-P72) which I believe = M293; and i also scored negative for E1b1b1b2b2(CTS8943), E1b1b1b2b2(CTS7661),
E1b1b1b2b2(CTS6013) which are equivalent to E-V1486
13096
This i believe might restrict my haplogroup to the Eritrea/Northern Ethiopia region as of 11,000-14,000 years ago rather than going southwards, and with the proximity of the horn to yemen, it makes it highly possible that my ancestors must've reached the shores of Yemen thousands of years before the modern Yemenites even arrived; knowingly that, the reason why i believe this theory is highly possible is because of the migrations between Yemen and the horn goes back to tens of thousands of years.

Lank
12-17-2016, 12:47 PM
How about the V1700 equivalents?

V1515 is the major founding Y-DNA lineage of East African (Cushitic) peoples, so it would not be a surprise for it to have an old presence across the sea. Particularly considering the old presence of Z830 in the Levant. But there is evident, recent African admixture in Yemen, which needs to be sorted out first. If you turn out to be V1515*, you may still share a recent relation with other Africans. Trombetta reported V1515* in Eritrea in 2/15 Nara, and 1/5 Tigre. The Nara used to be called Barya, which is synonymous with "slave" in Ethiosemitic languages.

So a number of scenarios could explain your results, including a recent Afroasiatic or Nilo-Saharan ancestor from across the sea, or a very ancient presence in South Arabia. Who knows, V1515 could even have originated in West Asia and migrated across the Red Sea or Sinai. We really don't know. Comparing your lineage with other Arabians and Africans would give some indication, just be careful not to compare only with Arabs, who are more likely to have tested at the sufficient resolution.

Missouri1455
12-17-2016, 05:38 PM
How about the V1700 equivalents?

V1515 is the major founding Y-DNA lineage of East African (Cushitic) peoples, so it would not be a surprise for it to have an old presence across the sea. Particularly considering the old presence of Z830 in the Levant. But there is evident, recent African admixture in Yemen, which needs to be sorted out first. If you turn out to be V1515*, you may still share a recent relation with other Africans. Trombetta reported V1515* in Eritrea in 2/15 Nara, and 1/5 Tigre. The Nara used to be called Barya, which is synonymous with "slave" in Ethiosemitic languages.

So a number of scenarios could explain your results, including a recent Afroasiatic or Nilo-Saharan ancestor from across the sea, or a very ancient presence in South Arabia. Who knows, V1515 could even have originated in West Asia and migrated across the Red Sea or Sinai. We really don't know. Comparing your lineage with other Arabians and Africans would give some indication, just be careful not to compare only with Arabs, who are more likely to have tested at the sufficient resolution.

I have been trying to upload two important charts for Trombetta related to the E-V1515* for East Africans and North Africans. but i couldn't so here's the link http://ethiohelix.blogspot.ca/2015/06/improved-resolution-of-e-m215-aka-e3b.html

Looking at these markers, it surprised me that all East African groups who applied for this chart either completely lacked the E-V1515* or had it at a very minimal rate less than 1%; except for Nara and Tigre who had it at 13.3% and 20% respectively; now the closest related cousins to the Naras are Kunama who they share a Nilo-Saharan language and most likely an ancestral relation way back when.

Kunamas and Naras who are supposadly Nilo-Saharan each shared E-V42, E-V6, E-V22, and E-V32 markers, yet E-V1515* was completely missing from Kunama; but it existed in Naras and that connected them to the tigres which could signal that this gene flow was either brought down by the Tigres who have a way larger population than Naras or might have had a huge presence in Southern Arabia in ancient times and then transferred back to Eritrea; and any significance of it seems ancient rather than recent; because if it was recent more markers of E-V1515* would show up in different East African groups, and this proves any carriers of it would be most likely be rare. This study was done on a limited number of participants but it solidified my view on this marker that is not solely Cushitic nor it has a strong Cushitic following because Cushitic groups completely lack this marker; this is why in my opinion E-V1515* need to be studied thoroughly because it will shed light on new possibilities rather than the old traditional ones.

Lank
12-17-2016, 07:48 PM
I have been trying to upload two important charts for Trombetta related to the E-V1515* for East Africans and North Africans. but i couldn't so here's the link http://ethiohelix.blogspot.ca/2015/06/improved-resolution-of-e-m215-aka-e3b.html

Looking at these markers, it surprised me that all East African groups who applied for this chart either completely lacked the E-V1515* or had it at a very minimal rate less than 1%; except for Nara and Tigre who had it at 13.3% and 20% respectively; now the closest related cousins to the Naras are Cunama who they share a Nilo-Saharan language and most likely an ancestral relation way back when.

Cunamas and Naras who are supposadly Nilo-Saharan each shared E-V42, E-V6, E-V22, and E-V32 markers, yet E-V1515* was completely missing from Cunama; but it existed in Naras and that connected them to the tigres which could signal that this gene flow was either brought down by the Tigres who have a way larger population than Naras or might have had a huge presence in Southern Arabia in ancient times and then transferred back to Eritrea; and any significance of it seems ancient rather than recent; because of if it was recent more markers of E-V1515* would show up in different East African groups, and this proves any carriers of it would be most likely be rare. This study was done on a limited number of participants but it solidified my view on this marker that is not solely Cushitic nor it has a strong Cushitic following because Cushitic groups completely lack this marker; this is why in my opinion E-V1515* need to be studied thoroughly because it will shed light on new possibilities rather than the old traditional ones.
V1515 is strongly associated with East African pastoralists, as the charts at Ethiohelix show very well. Finding the earliest diverged lineages (V1515*) in the north, and a recent successful lineage in the south (M293) is consistent with the commonly accepted spread of Afroasiatic from the north. I have little doubt that the V1515* in Nara derives from Afroasiatics at some point, but I think it's too early to tell if it's from recent intermingling with the Tigre. That remains a strong possibility, but it could be older.

This does not change the strong association between V1515 and modern Cushitic speakers (I am aware that V1515 is probably twice as old as Cushitic, but its successful subclades are not that old). That V1515* is found in Semitic Tigre, and neighboring less populous Nara, and V1785* in Semitic Tigrinya, and neighboring less populous Kunama, does not change the association with prehistoric Cushitic speakers. Tigre and Tigrinya are mainly language shifters. I am Tigrinya and have Tigre cousins at 23andMe, we are more similar to the Agaw and Beja Cushites of the region than anything else.

What I am suggesting is to keep an open mind. The information you provided is not nearly enough to say how long your Y-DNA lineage has been in Arabia.

Missouri1455
12-17-2016, 10:17 PM
What I am suggesting is to keep an open mind. The information you provided is not nearly enough to say how long your Y-DNA lineage has been in Arabia.

In all honesty, to have only 2 ethnic groups out of 24 to represent only 13.3% and 20% for E-V1515* is somewhat low; and this on its own shows us that the research on this subclade is in its early stages; more people will test for it in the coming years and it will need some time before it establishes itself.

Anyways from what I learned of this is Arabians of today are a part of a newly formed haplogroup that only ranges 5000-6000 years old; prior to that the region was home to different haplogroup carriers and E1b1b1 followers made up a significant chunk; because to this day carriers of E1b1b make up the biggest minority in the region.

Also if possible can you provide me a chart of haplogroup results for Tigre, Eritreans? It will be greatly appreciated.

ArmandoR1b
12-17-2016, 10:47 PM
How about the V1700 equivalents?

V1700 equivalents are not included in the Geno 2.0 test. They are included in the Z827 SNP pack and BigY though.

Lank
12-18-2016, 11:23 AM
In all honesty, to have only 2 ethnic groups out of 24 to represent only 13.3% and 20% for E-V1515* is somewhat low; and this on its own shows us that the research on this subclade is in its early stages; more people will test for it in the coming years and it will need some time before it establishes itself.

Anyways from what I learned of this is Arabians of today are a part of a newly formed haplogroup that only ranges 5000-6000 years old; prior to that the region was home to different haplogroup carriers and E1b1b1 followers made up a significant chunk; because to this day carriers of E1b1b make up the biggest minority in the region.

Also if possible can you provide me a chart of haplogroup results for Tigre, Eritreans? It will be greatly appreciated.
Yes, we really need more data.

M34 is the most common E1b1b lineage in the Middle East. The uniformity of this lineage across the Middle East suggests it may actually have a lot in common with J1, and had an early presence in proto-Semitic speakers. On the other hand, V1515 (not just V1515* but all lineages) was not found in Trombetta's West Eurasian sample set (except for 1 Portugese), which included Yemeni samples. But we know from those who have tested privately, especially Gulf Arabs, that V1515 lineages such as V42 (peaks in Nara/Kunama) are found in Arabia. What we don't know is how old they could be, since too few Africans have tested.

In East Africa, V1515 is both frequent and diverse, and matches the north-south spread of pastoralists. In Arabia, we need to look at it on a case-by-case basis. Some of the lineages will be recent, some may be older.

We are lacking additional data on Tigre, unfortunately. One study (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v22/n12/full/ejhg201441a.html) reported 100% V32 in a few Tigres, but it's not reliable since the results table contains a lot of errors. My Tigre "third cousin" is V32, as well.

Missouri1455
12-18-2016, 06:02 PM
Yes, we really need more data.

M34 is the most common E1b1b lineage in the Middle East. The uniformity of this lineage across the Middle East suggests it may actually have a lot in common with J1, and had an early presence in proto-Semitic speakers. On the other hand, V1515 (not just V1515* but all lineages) was not found in Trombetta's West Eurasian sample set (except for 1 Portugese), which included Yemeni samples. But we know from those who have tested privately, especially Gulf Arabs, that V1515 lineages such as V42 (peaks in Nara/Kunama) are found in Arabia. What we don't know is how old they could be, since too few Africans have tested.

In East Africa, V1515 is both frequent and diverse, and matches the north-south spread of pastoralists. In Arabia, we need to look at it on a case-by-case basis. Some of the lineages will be recent, some may be older.

When it comes to Yemen one of the best ways to test E1b1b1 lineages would be to test separately descendants of Abraha who arrived in Yemen around 1500 years ago or so, and E1b1b1 of tribal yemenis I believe this will shed new light on historicity of E1b1b1 in Yemen. Because up to now from what I read in different arabian dna forums, is the E1b1b1 haplogroup is very common among tribal yemenis it reaches 20-25% which in my "opinion" reveals that the E1b1b1 has two components in the region one that was ancient and preceded the arrival of J1 Semites and the other one that was recent and brought by Abraha's descendants and other migrants from the horn.


We are lacking additional data on Tigre, unfortunately. One study (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v22/n12/full/ejhg201441a.html) reported 100% V32 in a few Tigres, but it's not reliable since the results table contains a lot of errors. My Tigre "third cousin" is V32, as well.

Thank you for this; i read somewhere that Tigres are mostly semitic and refer to themselves as semetic rather than cushitic; but it will be interesting to see how many of them belong to to E and J1 haplogroup.

kingjohn
12-18-2016, 07:24 PM
e-m34 is 8.1% in yeman
source : http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n3/full/5201934a.html
e-m34 could arrived with jews who came to yeman long long ago
there was also jewish tribes in saudi arabia if i am not mistaken
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_tribes_of_Arabia
in the futuer we will know as now with petrous bone after they took dna from natufians and and ppnb remains in jordan {hot climate hard for }
we will know ..... :)
best regards
adam

Lank
12-18-2016, 08:11 PM
When it comes to Yemen one of the best ways to test E1b1b1 lineages would be to test separately descendants of Abraha who arrived in Yemen around 1500 years ago or so, and E1b1b1 of tribal yemenis I believe this will shed new light on historicity of E1b1b1 in Yemen. Because up to now from what I read in different arabian dna forums, is the E1b1b1 haplogroup is very common among tribal yemenis it reaches 20-25% which in my "opinion" reveals that the E1b1b1 has two components in the region one that was ancient and preceded the arrival of J1 Semites and the other one that was recent and brought by Abraha's descendants and other migrants from the horn.

Thank you for this; i read somewhere that Tigres are mostly semitic and refer to themselves as semetic rather than cushitic; but it will be interesting to see how many of them belong to to E and J1 haplogroup.
Sure, we always need more data. Yemen is one of the most neglected parts of West Asia in genetic studies, except on the mtDNA side.

This goes for the African side of the Red Sea as well. Nobody would have guessed E-M34, typically associated with the Middle East, would peak in southern Ethiopia (and we still don't know which subclades are there). We are also lacking high resolution Y-DNA from Bejas, Cushites who neighbor Tigre to the north. They may have some V1515*.

The story of Y-DNA J in the Horn of Africa is complex as well. It peaks in Omotics from southern Ethiopia, and many Cushitic groups have comparable levels to Ethiosemitic groups.

Missouri1455
12-18-2016, 09:30 PM
e-m34 is 8.1% in yeman
source : http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n3/full/5201934a.html
e-m34 could arrived with jews who came to yeman long long ago
there was also jewish tribes in saudi arabia if i am not mistaken
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_tribes_of_Arabia
in the futuer we will know as now with petrous bone after they took dna from natufians and and ppnb remains in jordan {hot climate hard for }
we will know ..... :)
best regards
adam

Yemenite Jews in Yemen are indigenous Yemenites for the most part; only a small fraction of them might have belonged to the old Jews of Israel; but other than that they were Semitic Yemenites similar to their Muslim brethren.

This is an image i found about Southern/Northern Arabia in ancient times and I do think it is accurate to a certain extent:

13146

I believe this image would represent what Ancient Arabia would have looked like during the period the Qahtanites started ruling Southern Arabia around 2nd-3rd Millennium BC; since Qahtan himself supposedly came from the north around 2nd-3rd millennium BC; most Modern Yemenites belong to him, thats why the majority of my countrymen belong to the J1 haplogroup. This image shows us that Southern Arabia was an intermixed place of Hamitic/Semitic inhabitants and prior to that the Ancient Yemenites of Southern Arabia would have been of Hamitic descent rather than semetic; and would have most likely belonged to the E1b1b1 haplogroup alongside their brethren who were Egyptians, Ethiopic, Berbers, etc.

Thats why I believe E1b1b1 makes up a significant minority amongst tribal yemenis today because this relates back to ancient times; and im excluding Abraha's descendants because they came much later and in smaller numbers. Tribal yemenis are yemenis who lived in mountainous regions of yemen, desert areas of yemen, or lived far inland; these people when they usually come up as E1b1b1 then their y-dna would need to be studied deeply because it most likely goes back to ancient times. Meanwhile Abraha's descendants only make up around 15% and recent migrants from the horn of africa would have most likely settled down around the coastal areas of Yemen wether it was Tihama, Aden, Mukalla, Shihr, etc.

Thank you for the links btw!

WADIGAJI
10-17-2020, 11:53 AM
I tested positive for E-V6 with E-Y178503 terminal on yfull. i have 11 snp matches on yfull, 10 saudis from riyahd and one iraq belonging to the mijma3 tribe. I am Eritrean from Tigrigna tribe.

capsian
10-17-2020, 02:22 PM
Your Y DNA found in remains Natufian

WADIGAJI
10-17-2020, 10:09 PM
Your Y DNA found in remains Natufian
it is very plausible

Shanck
10-21-2020, 05:24 PM
Your Y DNA found in remains Natufian

E-V6 was found in Natufians? As far as I remember the E-Z830 among them was basal?