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rms2
12-22-2016, 06:25 PM
Hey. I just demoted myself to project co-admin and promoted Mike Walsh to the position of Grand Poobah and Pontifex Maximus of FTDNA's R L21 and Subclades Project.

I think this is a good idea, and I have been thinking of doing it for some time. I have run the L21 Project since it began, and it's starting to get a little stale for me, so it's time to move on. I will stick around as a co-admin, but all the big time monkeying with the web site, etc., will fall to Mike.

I still run a number of other FTDNA projects, and they are more than enough to keep me going.

jdean
12-22-2016, 06:58 PM
Hey. I just demoted myself to project co-admin and promoted Mike Walsh to the position of Grand Poobah and Pontifex Maximus of FTDNA's R L21 and Subclades Project.

I think this is a good idea, and I have been thinking of doing it for some time. I have run the L21 Project since it began, and it's starting to get a little stale for me, so it's time to move on. I will stick around as a co-admin, but all the big time monkeying with the web site, etc., will fall to Mike.

I still run a number of other FTDNA projects, and they are more than enough to keep me going.

May I add a loud applause for the huge effort you've put into L21 over all these years !!!!

rms2
12-22-2016, 07:21 PM
May I add a loud applause for the huge effort you've put into L21 over all these years !!!!

Thanks! It's been fun, especially during those formative years.

David Mc
12-22-2016, 07:34 PM
Thanks, Rich, for all you've done for the Project. And thanks, Mike, for stepping up! We owe you both a debt of gratitude.

Mikewww
12-22-2016, 10:01 PM
Thanks! It's been fun, especially during those formative years.

Yes, thank you Richard. People don't realize you weren't just a most diligent project administrator but a founder and visionary too.

I remember the days...

of playful argument with the fox about which would be bigger, L21 or U152 .... or

when correlating R1b with IE and not with Stone Age Cro-Magnon and not as Iberian launched was heresy .... or

L21 couldn't have any to do with France other than the randy Irish monks (or wild geese or something)

:)
... and you are cited by an insightful, ground-breaking author.

You have fought conventional wisdom all the way through.

rms2
12-23-2016, 02:15 AM
I hope I haven't doomed you.

If you remember, when I gave up the P312 Project, the guy who inherited it had a stroke not too long afterwards. :(

seferhabahir
12-26-2016, 07:39 PM
Rich,

You were the very first person I ever talked to about my early FTDNA DNA results some six years ago, and started me off on my quest to find out more (and certainly spend more on tests). Thank you for all your help over the years with the L21 project and on my own explorations to discover I was a L21, then a Baltic Cluster, then an L583, then a Z251, and so on and so on. Wild geese and randy monks indeed. I think we always knew we were some kind of Central European thing. I'm happy that you were my first personal contact in the world of DNA testing (and that we also shared some common East Bay things as well).

Seferhabahir

MJost
12-27-2016, 04:17 AM
Well I remember joining the L21 project in March 2009 with my first FtDNA testing. I first tested with Genebase and went DF13+ and had STR testing that wasn't able to transfer. Rich mentioned that I needed to be part of a much larger database. Rich help guide me into the fold with a Y-25 test but and after 40 additional tests including the walk the Y, I never got any further than DF13+. Rich really thought I had to be German outlier. Well now we know we all were. And after many Isle based STR similar haplotypes it was pointing to an Isle base ancestry. Finally I just bit the bullet and did the Full Genome ChrY test and discovered my new DF13 subclade, FGC5494. After verifying my new SNPs with YSeq, I tested my Scottish 9/67 & 13/111 STR match named Ross with my Sanger Sequenced SNPs and he matched 18 out of 26. My 6/67 & 8/111 went 23 out of 26 and is a born and bred Isle of Man Manx male with a Watterson surname. I have several USA Watterson's closer SNP GD with a female predicted 3rd cousin aDNA of the USA Watterson who is 1/67 & 3/111 with a 24 of 26 SNPs. This surname has written Key records back to 1417 on the IOM. Just recently another Scottish surname has test with BigY and is just a few more SNPs back than Ross from the Highlands. So ten years has changed my world and over 80 other tested NGS men who are FGC5494+. Rich was my inspiration, even though there might have been a few rough disagreement moments here and there, driving me to find my real roots other than my birth certificate German surname, as my half maternal Jost siblings turns out to be U106+ and are German. Thanks Rich for giving me options.

Mikewww
01-03-2017, 02:49 PM
I've started trying to resequence the subgroupings by using a three digit prefix so that the subgroupings will appear roughly sorted the same way the FTDNA haplotree is sorted. You can see the haplotree by clicking on "Haplotree & SNPs" button when logging in to your myFTDNA account.

I will try to get consistent color coding between the subgroupings, the spreadsheets and any graphic trees. This will take time.

I will stay at a high level of subgroupings for the major subclades, such as CTS4466, DF49xM222, M222, etc. These are very important projects and I heartily endorse participation in them.

Someone started a rumor that I might try to consolidate some of these sub of L21 projects. That's absolutely untrue. I am trying to align these major subgroupings with SNP Packs to aid in helping people know what packs apply as it can be confusing. I'm taking this page from the U106 folks' book with a graphic and color coding they use.

However, there is and will continue to be a major difference in the L21 and U106 projects. The U106 project is basically a monolithic project but the L21 project is really a master project with many very critical sub of L21 projects. Please, please join and stay in your appropriate sub of L21 projects. Also, please stay in and join the L21 project if you confirmed SNP positive for any downstream SNP.

In the subgrouping work, we will get greater granularity for the top-layer and misc. subclade folks. This was already there anyway but we will try to grow the granularity with these smaller groups because they have less support elsewhere. I just added a new subgrouping last night related to the Blandfords/Blanfords. (congrats to them).

I am the R1b project admin and have a unique authority to join people from that project to major subclade projects as they confirm their SNP results in those subclades. The R-L21 project has been the biggest receiver or newbie people from the R1b project. I expect this to continue and will look for ways to accelerate this. I do care about all of R1b but my motivator is to shake the big tree of R-M269 undifferentiated folks as hard as I can get people out into the appropriate subclade projects.

errett
01-05-2017, 09:17 PM
Thanks Rich for all the hard work and enjoy a little more free time.

Mikewww
01-05-2017, 09:44 PM
... but we will try to grow the granularity with these smaller groups because they have less support elsewhere. I just added a new subgrouping last night related to the Blandfords/Blanfords. (congrats to them)...
I've refined the Z16500 subclade with Thomas B's help. It turns out they have their own project also, but that's fine. Any other of the small subclades that needs to be addressed?

swid
01-06-2017, 03:58 AM
BY4047 and BY12512 should be broken out as subgroupings in the ZZ10+ section.

Mikewww
01-06-2017, 11:50 PM
BY4047 and BY12512 should be broken out as subgroupings in the ZZ10+ section.
Thanks, Swid. Will work on that after I get their haplotree updates downloaded. I just went through all of the A, BY, FGC and Y series named SNPs in their Advanced Tests/Sanger catalog and there was another dramatic uptick so they seem to be fulfilling the promise to have every branch on the haplotree covered by Sanger Sequencing with at least one SNP.

Mikewww
01-18-2017, 07:35 PM
Thanks, Swid. Will work on that after I get their haplotree updates downloaded. I just went through all of the A, BY, FGC and Y series named SNPs in their Advanced Tests/Sanger catalog and there was another dramatic uptick so they seem to be fulfilling the promise to have every branch on the haplotree covered by Sanger Sequencing with at least one SNP.
I've done this but I'm not finding the people that fit so I can move them into these subgroups. Are there BY4047+ and BY12512+ people in the R-L21 project? If so, what subgrouping are they in now. If not, please ask them to join.

On another front, I added sub-branching for CTS3386.

swid
01-18-2017, 09:08 PM
I've done this but I'm not finding the people that fit so I can move them into these subgroups. Are there BY4047+ and BY12512+ people in the R-L21 project? If so, what subgrouping are they in now.

Thanks for getting those subgroups created, Mike. Looks like since you posted this, you found the 2 BY12512+ guys in the project and moved them into their subgroup.

There's five people in the generic ZZ10+ section who are listed as either R-BY4047 or R-BY4050 (a newly-defined subclade of BY4047 (http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1388)).

Mikewww
02-04-2017, 04:22 PM
I've updated the R1b-L21 Outline Tree and SNP Details files. FTDNA has 1,597 branches on the L21 tree. There are 5,608 SNPs marking these branches.

http://rebrand.ly/R1b-L21-Outline-Tree-pdf

http://rebrand.ly/R1b-L21-SNP-Details-pdf

They can be found in this folder:

http://rebrand.ly/R1b-L21

Mikewww
02-10-2017, 03:12 AM
If you are interested in genetic genealogy, it is important to get to 111 STRs. The R-L21 project is blessed with emphatic testers so we have thousands of people already at 111 STRs, including those who have done Big Y too.

This bodes well for the future as more and more people who will never do Big Y choose to upgrade to 111 STRs.

swid
02-10-2017, 03:22 PM
This bodes well for the future as more and more people who will never do Big Y choose to upgrade to 111 STRs.

Something else that would be a "nice to have" for the L21 project going forward is additional SNP testing for some of the people you currently a) have assigned to a speculative STR cluster and b) said cluster has never had an SNP result other than L21+ or DF13+. Incredibly (and this also points back to the testing enthusiasm), that's only about 2.5% of the 16,000+ suspected/confirmed 67-STR haplotypes. Maybe we could crowdfund some SNP Packs for some of these clusters? If you think this proposal has legs, I can bring it up in the L21 Yahoo group.

From a first pass at ancestral cluster locations, these may be good ones to target:
df13-1099 (Norway)
df13-z4871418-N (mostly Norway)
df13-z56810-99 (Spain/Andorra)
z43714 (France/Spain)

Mikewww
02-10-2017, 05:13 PM
Something else that would be a "nice to have" for the L21 project going forward is additional SNP testing for some of the people you currently a) have assigned to a speculative STR cluster and b) said cluster has never had an SNP result other than L21+ or DF13+. Incredibly (and this also points back to the testing enthusiasm), that's only about 2.5% of the 16,000+ suspected/confirmed 67-STR haplotypes. Maybe we could crowdfund some SNP Packs for some of these clusters? If you think this proposal has legs, I can bring it up in the L21 Yahoo group.

From a first pass at ancestral cluster locations, these may be good ones to target:
df13-1099 (Norway)
df13-z4871418-N (mostly Norway)
df13-z56810-99 (Spain/Andorra)
z43714 (France/Spain)

That's a good idea. We are really knocking off the asterisk (paragroup) people of L21 and DF13. The list gets shorter and shorter so it may be time to try to knock it out completely (as is possible.)

swid
02-10-2017, 06:32 PM
We are really knocking off the asterisk (paragroup) people of L21 and DF13.

Semi-related, when I was going through the haplotype spreadsheet, it's really amazing how far down the SNP tree most of the STR clusters have become identified with. Your work on the spreadsheet has also made it super-easy to provide SNP guidance on the generic "turns out I'm L21 or DF13, now what?" questions here and elsewhere.

Mikewww
02-10-2017, 09:40 PM
Semi-related, when I was going through the haplotype spreadsheet, it's really amazing how far down the SNP tree most of the STR clusters have become identified with. Your work on the spreadsheet has also made it super-easy to provide SNP guidance on the generic "turns out I'm L21 or DF13, now what?" questions here and elsewhere.
I'm hoping David S will post here but we have some new news about L21... unexpected.

swid
02-12-2017, 06:44 AM
Looks like the cat's out of the bag on this one, as kit 329129 (http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2201) was found to be Z260+ Z245+ Z290+ Z21145+ L21- L429-.

I also see that the L21 Yahoo group's name was updated. :-)

miiser
02-12-2017, 07:54 AM
Looks like the cat's out of the bag on this one, as kit 329129 (http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2201) was found to be Z260+ Z245+ Z290+ Z21145+ L21- L429-.

I also see that the L21 Yahoo group's name was updated. :-)

One of this kit's surname group members claims to be from Scotland, which, if true, has interesting implications for the history of L21, considering this branch is upstream of L21 and precedes the L21 MRCA by a few SNPs worth of time.

jdean
02-12-2017, 12:16 PM
I'm hoping David S will post here but we have some new news about L21... unexpected.

Yep at long last we've a fellow who's positive for some of the L21 block but negative for others

Z260+, Z245+, Z290+, L21-, L459-


And how long did it take to hear the L21 from the Isles mantra ?

All I'll say on that topic is if this gents Y-DNA ancestors were in the Isles for the last 4 to 5 thousand years they must have been remarkably quiet : ))))))

miiser
02-12-2017, 12:44 PM
Yep at long last we've a fellow who's positive for some of the L21 block but negative for others

Z260+, Z245+, Z290+, L21-, L459-


And how long did it take to hear the L21 from the Isles mantra ?

All I'll say on that topic is if this gents Y-DNA ancestors were in the Isles for the last 4 to 5 thousand years they must have been remarkably quiet : ))))))

I'm not certain, but I think your comment is directed at me. So I'll just say once again that I don't have a strong opinion for L21 originating either inside or outside the Isles. I think the current evidence is consistent with both possibilities. This is in contrast to some members of this forum, who have taken a strong position against the possibility of L21 having originated in the Isles.

But I can guarantee that some people have been very eager to identify a Continental based sibling to L21 as support for a Continental origin, as demonstrated by the myriad discussion threads that spring to life on this forum every time a single new Continental data point appears within the L21 project. A Continental sibling subclade of L21 would have altered the existing picture of an Isles concentration. But this new sibling branch under Z260 doesn't do that, instead strengthening the already clear picture of an Isles centric distribution.

Your last comment regarding being "remarkably quiet" in the Isles doesn't make any sense to me, regardless of whether you are for or against an Isles origin for L21. No serious researcher denies that Bell Beaker has been in England since about 2500 BC. This is widely agreed upon by archaeologists. So if you believe that L21 arose within Bell Beaker culture (as I think you probably do based on your previous posts in other discussions), then your argument about them being quiet "for the last 4 to 5 thousand years" is misguided. There is plenty of evidence that Bell Beaker has been in the Isles for this amount of time.

jdean
02-12-2017, 01:09 PM
Your last comment regarding being "remarkably quiet" in the Isles doesn't make any sense to me

He has very few matches at 67 and non that I'm aware of at 111 loci (and I'm not limiting myself to FTDNA's cut off point), considering how extensive the Isles is tested plus the myriad of folk with Y-DNA heritage from the Isles who live in the far flung corners of the world I think it improbable his Y-DNA ancestors were hibernating in the Isles since the Z260 L21 split.

miiser
02-12-2017, 01:23 PM
He has very few matches at 67 and non that I'm aware of at 111 loci (and I'm not limiting myself to FTDNA's cut off point), considering how extensive the Isles is tested plus the myriad of folk with Y-DNA heritage from the Isles who live in the far flung corners of the world I think it improbable his Y-DNA ancestors were hibernating in the Isles since the Z260 L21 split.

Indeed, he belongs to a small surname group who share a fairly recent MRCA from the southern US. And I'm skeptical of the claim that the lineage is from Scotland, which is why I said "if true" in my original comment. Some online trees appear to trace this lineage to Kent, England. I haven't personally verified the documentation for any of the trees, and don't know which are accurate and which are rubbish. And at any rate, I think it's likely that this surname group has been affected by an NPE at some point during the past thousand years, so I put no stock in the surname itself being in any way informative. If I had access to the kit, I would like to see if there are others with similar STR signatures that likely belong to the same haplogroup. I doubt that Reynolds is the original surname, so the surnames of matches in the 500-1000 year range may be more informative.

But regardless of where the lineage originated, it is a rare lineage. I don't think the explanation needs to be that it's been quiet, but simply that it's a very small population, and this has got to be true whether it's small in the Isles or small on the Continent. Yes, we have a greater sampling rate from the Isles. But we also have thousands of samples from France, Germany, Spain, etc., and this subclade hasn't shown up in any of those places either. It seems that this is a struggling lineage, on its way to a near future extinction.

ArmandoR1b
02-12-2017, 01:41 PM
What this revelation shows is that there needs to be a lot more BigY testing all over Europe because the possibility of that branch being broken up by people in the continent is very good. Continental European BigY testing has a very long way to go compared to BigY testing of people with ancestry from the British Isles. Until there is an almost equal amount of testing in continental Europe there will be an erroneous hypothesis. Kit 329139 isn't even an ancient sample and people are jumping to conclusions already about what happened where.

jdean
02-12-2017, 01:52 PM
Indeed, he belongs to a small surname group who share a fairly recent MRCA from the southern US. And I'm skeptical of the claim that the lineage is from Scotland, which is why I said "if true" in my original comment. Some online trees appear to trace this lineage to Kent, England. I haven't personally verified the documentation for any of the trees, and don't know which are accurate and which are rubbish. And at any rate, I think it's likely that this surname group has been affected by an NPE at some point during the past thousand years, so I put no stock in the surname itself being in any way informative. If I had access to the kit, I would like to see if there are others with similar STR signatures that likely belong to the same haplogroup. I doubt that Reynolds is the original surname, so the surnames of matches in the 500-1000 year range may be more informative.

But regardless of where the lineage originated, it is a rare lineage. I don't think the explanation needs to be that it's been quiet, but simply that it's a very small population, and this has got to be true whether it's small in the Isles or small on the Continent. Yes, we have a greater sampling rate from the Isles. But we also have thousands of samples from France, Germany, Spain, etc., and this subclade hasn't shown up in any of those places either. It seems that this is a struggling lineage, on its way to a near future extinction.

Talk of NPEs and surnames is pretty irrelevant in my opinion, we are talking about a split from the main L21 branch which is at least 4 to 5 thousand yrs old

MacUalraig
02-12-2017, 02:08 PM
Looks like the cat's out of the bag on this one, as kit 329129 (http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2201) was found to be Z260+ Z245+ Z290+ Z21145+ L21- L429-.

I also see that the L21 Yahoo group's name was updated. :-)

Is that supposed to read 329139?

miiser
02-12-2017, 02:51 PM
Talk of NPEs and surnames is pretty irrelevant in my opinion, we are talking about a split from the main L21 branch which is at least 4 to 5 thousand yrs old

If this is your position, then why bemoan the relatively small sample size from the Continent? Modern samples from the Continent won't tell us any more than modern samples from the Isles regarding the location of the lineage 4500 years ago.

Surnames and NPEs are relevant because they can inform where the lineage was 500-1000 years ago, which is at least an improvement over knowing that they were in the southern US in 1850.

miiser
02-12-2017, 02:53 PM
Is that supposed to read 329139?

I'm sure it is supposed to be 329139. I also noticed that typo. There's only one sample that fits the description, and it's listed as 329139 in Alex's big tree and in the Reynolds surname project.

miiser
02-12-2017, 02:56 PM
In Y-search, I see Sisson, Robinson, and Watts as STR matches that COULD possibly belong to the same haplogroup - all English names in most recent history, at least suggesting that this lineage is in fact from England or Scotland, and not simply a mis-traced lineage or NPE affected lineage with a recent history elsewhere.

swid
02-12-2017, 03:58 PM
Yeah, it's a typo; that's what I get for posting at well past midnight local time. :-)

rms2
02-12-2017, 04:14 PM
Yep at long last we've a fellow who's positive for some of the L21 block but negative for others

Z260+, Z245+, Z290+, L21-, L459-


And how long did it take to hear the L21 from the Isles mantra ?

All I'll say on that topic is if this gents Y-DNA ancestors were in the Isles for the last 4 to 5 thousand years they must have been remarkably quiet : ))))))

This is an interesting case, if it actually pans out, but I don't think modern y-dna testing has much to say about the origin of L21 one way or the other, especially when it comes to the Isles, which have experienced in-flow from the Continent pretty much continuously throughout their history. I know you were not saying it does; I was just using your post as a springboard to express my own view.

Hopefully the upcoming big Bell Beaker paper will tell us something about L21. If the Amesbury Archer's results are in it, and if he turns out to be L21+ (not a sure thing, of course), that will argue for a continental origin, and/or if L21 shows up in any of the older continental Beaker, Vucedol or (God willing) Yamnaya results.

In the meantime I guess we can argue about where L21 originated. I am really looking forward to this new paper. Hope it's not a big let down.

jdean
02-12-2017, 04:22 PM
I am really looking forward to this new paper. Hope it's not a big let down.

Me too Rich and WRT to trying to use modern frequency (especially with a skewed data set) to predict origins thousands of years ago is clearly problematic but this R-Z260 result doesn't even have a frequency (at the mo) in any meaningful way : )

miiser
02-12-2017, 05:06 PM
Modern distribution is by no means conclusive. But some people seem to be very interested in it anyhow, at least when the Continent is involved. For example, these threads have generated quite a lot of interest among some forum members:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?940-DF63-(L21-gt-DF63)/page5
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2563-Subclades-of-L21-British-Islands-vs-Continent/page9

So SOMEONE at least must consider it as relevant. Judging from these other threads, I don't doubt we'd be hearing a great deal about this sample right now if their reported location of origin was on the Continent.

jdean
02-12-2017, 06:56 PM
Funnily enough I've just received the RAW data from a Swedish gentleman, he shares one solitary novel SNP with a gentleman of recent Polish ancestry which forms a new branch under ZP162 (R-DF49). The Swedish gentleman has no matches that I'm aware of (tested up to 67 loci) and the other fellow has four matches that I know of at 37 loci up to a GD of 5 (all with Polish names), next closest are both GD's of 8 but the one is 4 off WAMH and the other DF21. These two gentleman have a GD of 24 at 37 loci.

Of course by even mentioning this I'm clearly pushing an agenda and should instead focus only on similar examples with Isles ancestry.

Mikewww
02-12-2017, 10:20 PM
The Z260** Reynolds can be seen in the first real subgrouping of the R1b-Z260 & R1b-L21 project.

001. Z260** Z245+ Z260+ Z290+ L21- L459- (Consider Big Y, R1b-L21 SNP Pack, 111 STRs)*
329139 Joseph Reynolds b1819 d aft 1862 M Amanda Gatrill

His STRs are here:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21?iframe=yresults

rms2
02-13-2017, 12:53 PM
Modern distribution is by no means conclusive. But some people seem to be very interested in it anyhow, at least when the Continent is involved. For example, these threads have generated quite a lot of interest among some forum members:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?940-DF63-(L21-gt-DF63)/page5
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2563-Subclades-of-L21-British-Islands-vs-Continent/page9

So SOMEONE at least must consider it as relevant. Judging from these other threads, I don't doubt we'd be hearing a great deal about this sample right now if their reported location of origin was on the Continent.

Well, naturally. Those, like me, who think L21 originated on the Continent get excited by continental results that incline that way. Those who think L21 originated in the Isles get excited by whatever tends to support their view.

However, I did not see anything in those posts you linked to that claimed those continental results prove anything one way or another. They were simply news about interesting results.

I think all of us recognize that it's going to take ancient y-dna to settle this controversy.

Even if it turns out that L21 originated in the Isles, which I doubt, big deal. If it did, it's certain P312 did not. Given the apparent age of L21 and the timing of the arrival of the Bell Beaker people, if L21 did arise in the Isles, then it did so only just barely, very very soon after Bell Beaker got there. So, it was a continental lineage or stemmed from one that had only recently arrived in the Isles.

Either way is good.

rms2
02-13-2017, 03:15 PM
Funnily enough I've just received the RAW data from a Swedish gentleman, he shares one solitary novel SNP with a gentleman of recent Polish ancestry which forms a new branch under ZP162 (R-DF49). The Swedish gentleman has no matches that I'm aware of (tested up to 67 loci) and the other fellow has four matches that I know of at 37 loci up to a GD of 5 (all with Polish names), next closest are both GD's of 8 but the one is 4 off WAMH and the other DF21. These two gentleman have a GD of 24 at 37 loci.

Of course by even mentioning this I'm clearly pushing an agenda and should instead focus only on similar examples with Isles ancestry.

You know, I understand that some guys honestly, in the sincerity of their own high integrity, believe that L21 originated in the Isles. I get that.

But I remember when L21 had just been rediscovered, at the end of 2008, if I recall correctly. Back then the R1b-in-the-Iberian-LGM-Refuge idea was very much still alive and kicking and still pretty much the consensus view. Back then the belief that L21 had arisen in the Isles was linked to the desire to be the most native of the native native British and Irish aboriginals, born with peat already under one's fingernails, the whitest of the whitey-white original white guys of Europe, next to whom those famous cliffs were merely the Beige Cliffs of Dover. Funny though that the fiercest advocates were usually Americans or Australians.

I am NOT talking about miiser, by the way. As far as I know, he was not around the dna chatter boxes back then, so I hope he doesn't get the idea that I meant any of that about him. I didn't.

Anyway, now I think we know pretty well that no R1b of any kind got to the Isles right after the LGM, and we know it did not spend the LGM in Iberia. I think most of us would agree it got to Britain and Ireland with the Bell Beaker people, and they came bearing not only R1b-P312 (at the very least) but autosomal dna from the Russian steppe.

It's pretty clear none of us R1b guys is actually, at least in terms of his y-dna, the most native of the native native British and Irish aboriginals, born with peat already under his fingernails, the whitest of the whitey-white original white guys of Europe, next to whom those famous cliffs are merely the Beige Cliffs of Dover. ;)

jdean
02-13-2017, 03:46 PM
You know, I understand that some guys honestly, in the sincerity of their own high integrity, believe that L21 originated in the Isles. I get that.

But I remember when L21 had just been rediscovered, at the end of 2008, if I recall correctly. Back then the R1b-in-the-Iberian-LGM-Refuge idea was very much still alive and kicking and still pretty much the consensus view. Back then the belief that L21 had arisen in the Isles was linked to the desire to be the most native of the native native British and Irish aboriginals, born with peat already under one's fingernails, the whitest of the whitey-white original white guys of Europe, next to whom those famous cliffs were merely the Beige Cliffs of Dover. Funny though that the fiercest advocates were usually Americans or Australians.

I am NOT talking about miiser, by the way. As far as I know, he was not around the dna chatter boxes back then, so I hope he doesn't get the idea that I meant any of that about him. I didn't.

Anyway, now I think we know pretty well that no R1b of any kind got to the Isles right after the LGM, and we know it did not spend the LGM in Iberia. I think most of us would agree it got to Britain and Ireland with the Bell Beaker people, and they came bearing not only R1b-P312 (at the very least) but autosomal dna from the Russian steppe.

It's pretty clear none of us R1b guys is actually, at least in terms of his y-dna, the most native of the native native British and Irish aboriginals, born with peat already under his fingernails, the whitest of the whitey-white original white guys of Europe, next to whom those famous cliffs are merely the Beige Cliffs of Dover. ;)

Yep and the other weird thing is from the point of view of Y-DNA most of non R1b doesn't look to have been here before the bronze age and if Gravetto-Danubian right even the WHG autosomal component in the Isles was probably brought in at that time too.

Mikewww
02-13-2017, 06:17 PM
....
Even if it turns out that L21 originated in the Isles, which I doubt, big deal. If it did, it's certain P312 did not. Given the apparent age of L21 and the timing of the arrival of the Bell Beaker people, if L21 did arise in the Isles, then it did so only just barely, very very soon after Bell Beaker got there. So, it was a continental lineage or stemmed from one that had only recently arrived in the Isles.
...
This point gets lost much of the time. I agree with Richard S that certainly L21 could have originated on the Isles, and it also could have originated on the continent, but...

The point is that L21 lineages in the Isles must have gotten there as a part of a large east to west migration and expansion and this expansion happened quickly during the Bronze Age.

The exact origin of the first L21 man, or first Z260 man or first DF13 man, is not really a big deal and not really something we will probably ever know. I don't think there is much doubt this all a part of the Bell Beakers, but which, when and how will quite interesting to figure out.

I lean towards L21 originating on the continent because of the general east west movements, of which there were multiple.

miiser
02-14-2017, 12:17 AM
Why has this thread degenerated into another argument about whether L21 originated on the Continent or in the Isles? All I had to do was mention the I-word and the usual gang went on the attack like a pack of rabid wolves.

All I said in my original post is that the geographic history of this Reynolds lineage, a sibling to L21, if it is from the Isles, has interesting implications for the history of L21.

Yet the response is just to insist that it's simply irrelevant and not even worthy of discussion.

If other people are interested in the history of L21, and have previously demonstrated a particular interest in the modern distribution of single L21 data points from the Continent that add to our knowledge, and a particular interest in the modern distribution of early branches such as DF63, then they certainly ought to be interested in the geographic data of a new basal subclade of Z260.

I think only an agenda or bias could possibly induce one to dismiss this new data point as irrelevant or unimportant. I find it strange that people who are so eager to trumpet from the rooftop every Continental DF63 data point are just as eager to shut down any hint of a suggestion that this new early branch of the Isles might contribute something meaningful to the data.

The contrasting attitudes toward interesting Isles data points versus interesting Continental data points suggests that an instinctive knee jerk response to just win an argument suffocates any sincere scientific curiosity to figure out the history of L21.

RobertCasey
02-14-2017, 01:26 AM
I only care about more relevant branches such as R-L226 - which is 80 % Irish. But if it was a sailor from Germany who originated this line - who really cares. For the last 1,500 years 80 % of these men were in Ireland - that is about as far back as I care about. When L226 was all there was for my line, I worked on R-L21 with L21 SNP predictor - waiting for the eventual flood of YSNPs to arrive to reveal more than just L226. I am now perfectly happy charting away at all those interesting branches of L226 which are getting very genealogical in nature.

I guess I am not much of anthropologist at heart. I do appreciate all the deep ancestral work being done, but it just does not seem too important to supporting the 90 % of genealogists who are subsidizing our adventure into genetic "genealogy."

miiser
02-14-2017, 02:10 AM
I only care about more relevant branches such as R-L226 - which is 80 % Irish. But if it was a sailor from Germany who originated this line - who really cares. For the last 1,500 years 80 % of these men were in Ireland - that is about as far back as I care about. When L226 was all there was for my line, I worked on R-L21 with L21 SNP predictor - waiting for the eventual flood of YSNPs to arrive to reveal more than just L226. I am now perfectly happy charting away at all those interesting branches of L226 which are getting very genealogical in nature.

I guess I am not much of anthropologist at heart. I do appreciate all the deep ancestral work being done, but it just does not seem too important to supporting the 90 % of genealogists who are subsidizing our adventure into genetic "genealogy."

Personally, I lean toward your attitude. My interest is weighted toward younger haplogroups with genealogical significance. But, after all, this is the "anthro"-genica forum, and a discussion thread within the L21 subforum. So I think it is not unreasonable to discuss the ancient history of L21, including what modern data points might indicate about its ancient history, no matter whether those data points happen to be from the Isles or the Continent.

Jessie
02-14-2017, 04:11 AM
You know, I understand that some guys honestly, in the sincerity of their own high integrity, believe that L21 originated in the Isles. I get that.

But I remember when L21 had just been rediscovered, at the end of 2008, if I recall correctly. Back then the R1b-in-the-Iberian-LGM-Refuge idea was very much still alive and kicking and still pretty much the consensus view. Back then the belief that L21 had arisen in the Isles was linked to the desire to be the most native of the native native British and Irish aboriginals, born with peat already under one's fingernails, the whitest of the whitey-white original white guys of Europe, next to whom those famous cliffs were merely the Beige Cliffs of Dover. Funny though that the fiercest advocates were usually Americans or Australians.

I am NOT talking about miiser, by the way. As far as I know, he was not around the dna chatter boxes back then, so I hope he doesn't get the idea that I meant any of that about him. I didn't.

Anyway, now I think we know pretty well that no R1b of any kind got to the Isles right after the LGM, and we know it did not spend the LGM in Iberia. I think most of us would agree it got to Britain and Ireland with the Bell Beaker people, and they came bearing not only R1b-P312 (at the very least) but autosomal dna from the Russian steppe.

It's pretty clear none of us R1b guys is actually, at least in terms of his y-dna, the most native of the native native British and Irish aboriginals, born with peat already under his fingernails, the whitest of the whitey-white original white guys of Europe, next to whom those famous cliffs are merely the Beige Cliffs of Dover. ;)

I knew about the Iberian connection in the past but just by logic L21 is too old and too widespread to have originated in the Isles. Possibly M222 originated in the Isles but even that's not a given. There needs to be more results from the European mainland. R1b-L21 does appear to be quite old in the Isles anyway. I think a lot of the older Isles population especially the Irish are very Bell Beaker. Looking forward to that big Bell Beaker paper and wish they would hurry up and release it. Should be a great thread when that paper gets released. :)

rms2
02-14-2017, 12:34 PM
Why has this thread degenerated into another argument about whether L21 originated on the Continent or in the Isles? All I had to do was mention the I-word and the usual gang went on the attack like a pack of rabid wolves.

You and I are getting very different vibes from this thread. My impression is that it has been pretty lighthearted, and not much of an argument has gone on. If a rabid wolf attack is an appropriate simile for this thread, those must be some pretty anemic wolves!



All I said in my original post is that the geographic history of this Reynolds lineage, a sibling to L21, if it is from the Isles, has interesting implications for the history of L21.

Okay, so discuss it, if that is what you want to do. No one is stopping you. The key there, it seems to me, is the if it is from the Isles part, and, if so, when.

Just about everybody who is literate knows that Britain and Ireland have had a near constant influx of people from the Continent throughout their history and prehistory. That is why an unusual SNP result for a brick-walled American with an English surname of possible Norman provenance isn't exactly front page news, at least when it comes to the argument over the origin of L21.



Yet the response is just to insist that it's simply irrelevant and not even worthy of discussion.


I don't think anyone has done that. Someone apparently thought it was worthy of discussion, because it was brought up in this thread.

My own opinion is that it doesn't do much for the folks who believe L21 originated in the Isles, but if someone wants to argue that it does, fine. It might be fun to haggle that out.



If other people are interested in the history of L21, and have previously demonstrated a particular interest in the modern distribution of single L21 data points from the Continent that add to our knowledge, and a particular interest in the modern distribution of early branches such as DF63, then they certainly ought to be interested in the geographic data of a new basal subclade of Z260.

We are interested in this. We have been talking about it. It lit up my email a couple of days before it found its way here.



I think only an agenda or bias could possibly induce one to dismiss this new data point as irrelevant or unimportant. I find it strange that people who are so eager to trumpet from the rooftop every Continental DF63 data point are just as eager to shut down any hint of a suggestion that this new early branch of the Isles might contribute something meaningful to the data.

Hyperbole. We are interested. We have been talking about it. Let's discuss it some more. If you think it adds to the Isles-origin argument, then say so or maybe even start a thread on the subject.

It certainly is important, because now we know that Z260 is evidently upstream of L21 (maybe - I'm still waiting for another one of these to come down the pike and firm things up).

As for agendas and bias, we all have at least the latter. I am biased in favor of a continental origin for L21. It will take some convincing to dissuade me from that particular bias. As for an agenda, well, I don't spend much time or energy campaigning for a continental origin for L21, because 1) I don't think it's necessary, and 2) I don't care all that much. Like I said, L21 is either a continental lineage itself or stems from one that had only very recently arrived in the Isles in a man carrying autosomal dna from the steppe. Either case is fine with me. I'm more interested in some results from western Yamnaya.



The contrasting attitudes toward interesting Isles data points versus interesting Continental data points suggests that an instinctive knee jerk response to just win an argument suffocates any sincere scientific curiosity to figure out the history of L21.

Once again, our impressions of this thread are like night and day. We are discussing this. No one is trying to suffocate "sincere scientific curiosity" or to unleash the ravenous continental wolves to devour the poor lamb of an Isles origin for L21.

Feel free to advocate that this Z260* result for a brick-walled American with an English surname of possible Norman origin is really tipping the scales toward an Isles origin for L21. Maybe you're right.

Mikewww
02-17-2017, 11:26 PM
I've been trying to get the Z290, Z260, Z245 branch on the ISOGG tree below P312 but above L21, L459.

That may be deferred due to infrastructure work on the ISOGG tree.

In lieu of that I directly contacted Reich and Haak and let them know about the updates. I just hope they are testing as youthfully as L21 but I'd sure hate to see them miss a Z290* type and they think they were P312*, when there is a difference.

Mikewww
05-25-2017, 06:38 PM
We've tried to enhance the R-L21 project pages with more relevant data and help.

References to Bell Beaker papers and Celtic tribes are now included. David Vance did a nice world history time-line for us.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l21/about/results

Jbr10291967
06-18-2017, 05:09 AM
Hopefully I am in the right place here. I am new to the Haplogroup subject and from what I googled, just seems confusing. So my questions are, where does my Y haplogroup R-L51 come from and all the R Haplogroups come from the same region? I notice when I google my Haplogroup, that R1b comes up. Also curious about my Mtdna Haplogroup H1b and where it comes from?

Thanks and sorry for the loaded questions.

MitchellSince1893
06-18-2017, 05:24 AM
Hopefully I am in the right place here. I am new to the Haplogroup subject and from what I googled, just seems confusing. So my questions are, where does my Y haplogroup R-L51 come from and all the R Haplogroups come from the same region? I notice when I google my Haplogroup, that R1b comes up. Also curious about my Mtdna Haplogroup H1b and where it comes from?

Thanks and sorry for the loaded questions.

Based on latest studies, the current thinking (by many but not all), is that R-L51 originated in Eastern Europe somewhere in/near the Pontic-Steppe, and was part of the Yamnaya Horizon. While no ancient L51 samples have been found, some of his earliest descendants have been found in Bavaria Germany (P312), and southern Sweden (U106) P312 and U106 were part of a migration during the early part of 3rd millennium BC.

No not all R haplogroups come from the same region. L51's ancestor L23 was also probably in the Pontic-Steppe or possibly in the Balkans. So far the only ancient L23+,L51-, Z2105- (meaning a 3rd branch of L23 that isn't L51 nor sister branch Z2105, which may provide a clue as to L51's origin as well) was found in Yamnaya, Lopatino II, I0443, 3300-2700 BC. Located near Samara, Russia where the red triangles cluster on this map.http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Z2103_Yamnaya.png


Once you get earlier than L23 then the picture get's murkier. It might be safe to say R1b was from "Western Eurasia" but it's hard to nail it down more than that at the present; and it could have been further east in Central Asia. There is a competing theory that R1b originated in Western Europe, but many believe the Olade study released last month, makes this theory difficult to support.

Jbr10291967
06-19-2017, 12:21 PM
Ok so region wise, I now understand , so would R-L51 be the same as R1b? I am constantly updating my notes here.

Again thanks

ffoucart
06-19-2017, 01:22 PM
Ok so region wise, I now understand , so would R-L51 be the same as R1b? I am constantly updating my notes here.

Again thanks

L51 is a subclade of R1b, and ancestral to P312, U106....

Look at the phylogenic tree:

http://mckeefamilyfromdonegal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/03-R1b-phylogenetic-tree-feb212015.png

swid
06-20-2017, 02:29 PM
Looks like the cat's out of the bag on this one, as kit 329129 (http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2201) was found to be Z260+ Z245+ Z290+ Z21145+ L21- L429-.

I was looking at Alex' tree and noticed that the Z290* branch is now displaying as having 0 members in it. Turns out another (same-surname) kit on that branch has Big Y results, so there's now a second branch with a number of unnamed SNPs (http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2566) directly below Z290.

Mikewww
08-28-2017, 05:59 PM
Just some quick stats.

The R-L21 project now has over 6,000 members.

Over 1 of 3 members have done Big Y.

Over 1 of 2 members have done 111 Y STRs.

I can see about a thousand more L21 Big Y testers outside of the project and I can see about 4,000 more L21 people outside the project with 111 Y STRs.

I like Big Y much better for SNP testing than I do the SNP Packs, but they have been very helpful. The R1b M343&M269 Backbone SNP Pack brings in a few more L21+ confirmed people almost every week.

Mikewww
10-12-2017, 12:48 AM
Update from the R-L21 project:

There are 6,199 members in the project.

There are 2,034 branches on the R1b-Z290 FTDNA haplotree, represented by 7,909 SNPs.

Our latest R1b-L21_Haplotypes file has over 16,000 67 STR haplotypes but what is amazing is we have 7,010 111 STR haplotypes.

If you are L21+ of some type and you want your latest STR and SNP information included, it is important to join the project.

A high level descendants tree and more information are on the project About web pages.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l21/about

Mikewww
10-12-2017, 01:29 AM
Alex W. just posted that the number of Big Y results completed for L21 year to date for 2017 is up to all of 2016. We have quite a number pending - forget new and future orders.

I've tried to say this but I've seen Big Y accelerating for L21. It has its own momentum now. People see the value. Time after time, we chase SNPs, do packs or panels or what have you but finally it becomes apparent you want your own line of SNPs, so Big Y becomes the solution.


Update from the R-L21 project:

There are 6,199 members in the project.

There are 2,034 branches on the R1b-Z290 FTDNA haplotree, represented by 7,909 SNPs.

Our latest R1b-L21_Haplotypes file has over 16,000 67 STR haplotypes but what is amazing is we have 7,010 111 STR haplotypes.

If you are L21+ of some type and you want your latest STR and SNP information included, it is important to join the project.

A high level descendants tree and more information are on the project About web pages.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l21/about

GoldenHind
11-11-2017, 08:14 PM
Someone joined the P312 Project today whose Big Y results shows him as P312>Z290>BY22760 but apparently negative for L21. Is he the first Z290+ L21-? I don't see anyone on Alex's tree in that position.

rms2
11-11-2017, 08:42 PM
Someone joined the P312 Project today whose Big Y results shows him as P312>Z290>BY22760 but apparently negative for L21. Is he the first Z290+ L21-? I don't see anyone on Alex's tree in that position.

What is his ancestral place of origin?

jdean
11-11-2017, 08:45 PM
Someone joined the P312 Project today whose Big Y results shows him as P312>Z290>BY22760 but apparently negative for L21. Is he the first Z290+ L21-? I don't see anyone on Alex's tree in that position.

We had somebody turn up last Feb who was Z260+, Z290+, L21-, L459-

Hopefully this is another case with a reasonable GD from that gent.

MitchellSince1893
11-11-2017, 09:46 PM
What is his ancestral place of origin?

The only guy I see in P312 project that's has BY22760+ has a English/Welsh surname. You have to sign into P312 as a member to see it i.e. not visible when I don't sign in as a member hence it's not public and I can't say who it is.

GoldenHind
11-11-2017, 10:58 PM
The only guy I see in P312 project that's has BY22760+ has a English/Welsh surname. You have to sign into P312 as a member to see it i.e. not visible when I don't sign in as a member hence it's not public and I can't say who it is.

He is currently the only person in the Ungrouped section of the P312 Project, as there isn't a category to put him in at the present. He does not have ancestry beyond the USA, but the surname is English. According to Reaney, the name is derived either from the Old French personal name Rainald or the Old Norse name Ragnaldr, which he suggests probably also got to England with the Normans. Of course having an ancestor with a Norman first name does not necessarily prove Norman ancestry, as Norman personal names were quickly adopted by the Anglo-Saxons after the Conquest.

He has a 111 same surname match who is also given the terminal SNP of BY22760 (who is not in the P312 Project), and four other matches at 67, one with the same surname, and three others, all of whom have what appear to be British surnames. Coincidentally one of the latter is a cousin of my wife (untested beyond P312).

EDIT: Apologies, apparently the ungrouped section doesn't appear on the P312 Project public website.

swid
11-11-2017, 11:17 PM
They're already both on the Big Tree: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2566&star=false

Alex updates the subgroups listed on the main page manually, so this branch doesn't show up unless you search for it.

rms2
11-11-2017, 11:22 PM
We had something similar a couple of years back with a man named Jones and it turned FTDNA had made an error, and he was actually L21+.

GoldenHind
11-12-2017, 06:41 PM
We had something similar a couple of years back with a man named Jones and it turned FTDNA had made an error, and he was actually L21+.

If that were the case here, I think Alex would have spotted it when he looked at their raw data file.

jdean
11-12-2017, 07:19 PM
They're already both on the Big Tree: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2566&star=false

Alex updates the subgroups listed on the main page manually, so this branch doesn't show up unless you search for it.

One of those is the BigY result that came in last Feb so presumably P312>Z290>BY22760 is a family branch at the mo, I checked his RAW data personally and both L21 & L459 were covered.

George Chandler
11-12-2017, 08:13 PM
If that were the case here, I think Alex would have spotted it when he looked at their raw data file.

I have also had this happen quite a few times where the Big Y data files show an negative and the a secondary analysis confirms a negative only to retest for the individual SNP again through both YSEQ and FTDNA and they both turn up positive for that SNP. The only way to be 100% is to retest it.


George

jdean
11-12-2017, 08:22 PM
I have also had this happen quite a few times where the Big Y data files show an negative and the a secondary analysis confirms a negative only to retest for the individual SNP again through both YSEQ and FTDNA and they both turn up positive for that SNP. The only way to be 100% is to retest it.


George

Or test somebody else who is in the proximity, which presumably is what happened here in order to end up with the BY22760 branch.

George Chandler
11-12-2017, 09:26 PM
Or test somebody else who is in the proximity, which presumably is what happened here in order to end up with the BY22760 branch.

I'm not as familiar with BY22760 but if this is supposed to be a new defining brother haplogroup to L21 (and it's that rare) I would test it again as well. I've just seen too many glitches and errors (not pointing fingers) to not retest the person several times just to be sure of what is or what isn't supposed to be there.

George

jdean
11-13-2017, 01:08 AM
I'm not as familiar with BY22760 but if this is supposed to be a new defining brother haplogroup to L21 (and it's that rare) I would test it again as well. I've just seen too many glitches and errors (not pointing fingers) to not retest the person several times just to be sure of what is or what isn't supposed to be there.

George

Or assume that two people with the same surname who tested positive for several SNPs on the old L21 level but negative for two and every single branch below it might actually represent a new branch of P312 ?

rms2
11-14-2017, 11:58 AM
If that were the case here, I think Alex would have spotted it when he looked at their raw data file.

You're probably right, but FTDNA was looking at raw data when they gave Jones his L21- status. If that's where the error is, then the raw data file isn't much help.

I remember some years back when the Beattys were told they were U106+ but really weren't and another individual whose name escapes me now (Hurst, was it?) was told he was U106- but was actually U106+. It took a couple of years before those cases were sorted out. Oh, I also recall it was quite some time before Vince Tilroe went from an initial U106- finding to his eventual U106+. I'm not sure if I am remembering correctly, but I think they may have also given him a P312+ result for awhile.

So, this guy might indeed represent a Z290xL21 branch. I'm not saying he doesn't, but it's something to watch.

GoldenHind
11-14-2017, 06:37 PM
I checked the Big Y result for the person in question and it shows he has a C rather than a G at L21, with high confidence. I am the last person to deny the possibility of a lab error by FTDNA, but in this case his same surname match apparently got the same result and the raw data of both have been reviewed by Alex. It seems to me that at the very least a reporting error by FTDNA has to be discounted. I will check with Alex and see what he has to say.

EDIT: I also point out that these two appear to be negative for all the very numerous SNPs currently known to be beneath L21. I might also mention that I am not L21 myself, so this isn't terribly important to me. i just thought it would be interesting to those who follow the L21 subclade.

Mikewww
02-21-2018, 06:39 PM
A lot has happened since October 9th and the start of the Hg38 conversion. I've laid back on diving into the data to let things settle out and so I wouldn't be going in circles gumming up the works (which I did anyway a bit).

From the pre-Hg38 haplotree (Oct 9) to now we have seen more filling out of the haplotree and haven broken through the 10,000 mark as far as number of different SNPs (variants I should say) on the haplotree. These are truly different variants, not just different names for the same variant.

The growth of the haplotree since Oct 9 has gone from 2,034 to 2,259 distinct branches, an 11.1% increase.

The growth in named variants has gone from 7,909 to 10,032, a whopping 26.8% increase.

FTDNA has been more aggressive (confident of their calls they would say) under the Hg38 reference model so a number of branches which were marked with lower sequence number BY named variants added an FGC or a Y named variant or even odd ball names as well as new higher sequence number BY named variants.

The early branching is also filling out and becoming more bushy. Here are are the direct early branches as I count them on the haplotree for the first major layer or two.

Z290 Subclades:
L21
BY22760

L21 Subclades:
DF13
DF63
A5846
A7906
BY2899
BY24776
F4006

DF13/Z2542 Subclades:
DF21
L580
L513
FGC11134
FGC5494
Z17300
BY19419
BY23392
BY34749
BY23434
Z39589
ZZ10

Z39589 Subclades:
S1026
Z251
Z16500
BY575
FGC35996
A9507
BY3925
FGC13742
FGC13780
FGC33712
BY15941
L526
ZZ80

ZZ10 Subclades:
Z253
Z255
CTS3386
MC14
BY4047
BY12512

You can see the relationships on the big picture view of the R1b-Z290&L21 Descendants Tree at the project About/Results web page.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l21/about/results

You can also download the detailed outline and SNP details views of the haplotree from that page.