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TigerMW
04-26-2013, 09:29 PM
The ranks of DF63 folks are growing plus we have some potential granularity with CTS6919 and F3901.2 both possibly splitting DF63.


I found another couple of surnames that are good suspects. This one might be CTS6919+
f200827 Gregory zzL21suspect

He has some similarities with
fN66966 Gery R1b-P312>L21>DF63>CTS6919+


Here is one that could be F3901.2+
fN3917 Moore

He has some common off-modals with
f14713 Sutherland R1b-P312>L21>DF63>F3901.2+

Nothing to write home about, but they should investigate DF63.


There is a DF63 project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF63/default.aspx?section=yresults

TigerMW
05-20-2013, 04:01 PM
Here are the DF63+ confirmed and suspected folks by region. I'll highlight the continental folks.

f232541 Roma DF63+ Z290+ CTS6919- L144- X1363-219-A Spain, Catalonia, Borredà
fN66966 Gery CTS6919+ L69- 3c1g X1363-6919- uas France, Bretagne, Finistère, Morlaix
f167223 LeBlanc L21+ DF13- X1363- uas France, Poitou-Charente, Vienne, Martaizé, Vienne
f243119 Bertrand DF63+ CTS6919- L144- X1363-21 France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, La Rochelle
f229499 Bertrand DF63+ Z290+ L144- X1363-21 France
f236449 Bertrand L21+ L144- X1363-21 France
f238019 Bertrand L21+ L144- X1363-21 France
f234677 Bertrand DF63+ CTS6919- L144- X1363-21 France
f127090 LeBlanc DF63+ X1363- uas France
fH1922 Schaefer CTS6919+ X1363-6919- uas Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate, Neuwied, Linz am Rhein
fN110523 Brunhoeber CTS6919+ Z290+ L144- X1363-6919- uas Germany
f37031 Bush X1363-219 England, East, Essex, Stock
fN72406 Darke DF63+ L144- 3c1g X1363-1014 England, London
fN90495 Passmore L21+ L144- X1363-219 England, South West, Devonshire
f107154 Pearse L21+ X1363-219 England, South West, Devonshire, Yealmpton
f15536 Broom X1363-219-A England
f15172 Broom DF63+ X1363-219-A England
f250172 Broom DF63+ X1363-219-A England
f12380 Broome X1363-219-A England
f31903 Bush DF63+ L69- L144- L195- X1363-219 England
f36886 Bush DF63+ X1363-219 England
f240012 De Brome DF63+ X1363-219-A England
f49976 Franklin CTS6919+ L144- L195- X1363-6919-1011 England
fB2414 Franklin CTS6919+ X1363-6919-1011 England
f51598 Franklin DF63+ X1363-6919-1011 England
f54798 Franklin CTS6919+ L144- X1363-6919-1011 England
f174870 Franklin CTS6919+ X1363-6919-1011 England
f85548 Franklin X1363-6919-1011 England
f31399 Lambert L21+ L144- X1363-6919-1415 England
f158115 McBroom X1363-219-A England
f3268 Douglas X1363-219 Ireland, Ulster
f245311 MacFarlane X1363-6919-1415 Ireland, Ulster
f156473 McFarland DF63+ X1363-6919-1415 Ireland, Ulster
f79381 McFarland X1363-6919-1415 Ireland, Ulster
f105405 McFarland X1363-6919-1415 Ireland, Ulster
f253055 McFarland DF63+ X1363-6919-1415 Ireland, Ulster
f267785 McFarland DF63+ X1363-6919-1415 Ireland, Ulster
f194544 McFarlane X1363-6919-1415 Ireland, Ulster
fN3917 Moore X1363- uas Ireland, Ulster
f258363 Withrow X1363-6919-1011 Ireland, Ulster
f68467 zzzUnknown X1363-6919-1415 Ireland, Ulster
f172350 McFarlane CTS6919+ L144- L195- X1363-6919-1415 Ireland, Ulster, Co. Fermanagh, Dromore Parish
fN16301 McFarland DF63+ X1363-6919-1415 Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone
f188353 McFarland DF63+ L144- X1363-6919-1415 Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone
fN76446 McFarlin CTS6919+ L144- X1363-6919-1415 Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone
f221632 Givens X1363-6919-1415 Ireland
f202607 MacFarlane DF63+ X1363-6919-1415 Ireland
f36667 McAlister X1363-6919-1415 Ireland
f250082 zzzUnk(McFarlane) X1363-6919-1415 Ireland
f208171 Allan DF63+ Z290+ CTS6919- L144- X1363-219-A Scotland, Fife, Kilconquhar
f130889 McFarlane X1363-6919-1415 Scotland, Perthshire, Callendar
f224420 Lowden DF63+ X1363- uas Scotland, Tayside, Dundee
f237196 Lowden DF63+ X1363- uas Scotland, Tayside, Dundee
f191950 Lowden DF63+ L459+ Z245+ Z260+ CTS6919- Z2542- L144- X1363- uas Scotland, Tayside, Forfarshire, Dundee
f14713 Sutherland F3901+ X1363- uas Scotland, Lothian, Edinburgh
f143673 McFarlane X1363-6919-1415 Scotland, Central, Stirlingshire, Buchanan Parish
f154169 McFarlane X1363-6919-1415 Scotland, Central, Stirlingshire, Kilmadock
f50803 McFarlane X1363-6919-1415 Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyllshire, Glenorchy, Druim Lighart
f124448 McFarlane L21+ X1363-6919-1415 Scotland, Strathclyde, Dunbartonshire
f58476 MacFarlane DF63+ X1363-6919-1415 Scotland, Strathclyde, Dunbartonshire, East Dunbartonshire, Lennox
f113242 McFarlane X1363-6919-1415 Scotland, Strathclyde, Dunbartonshire, East Dunbartonshire, Lennox
f123258 McFarlane X1363-6919-1415 Scotland, Strathclyde, Dunbartonshire, East Dunbartonshire, Lennox
f230321 McFarlane CTS6919+ X1363-6919-1415 Scotland, Strathclyde, Lanarkshire, Glasgow
f113383 Black X1363-6919-1415 Scotland
f34193 Broom X1363-219-A Scotland
fN11946 Broom DF63+ X1363-219-A Scotland
f136331 Broom DF63+ X1363-219-A Scotland
f195504 Lennox DF63+ X1363-6919-1415 Scotland
f247319 MacFarlin X1363-6919-1415 Scotland
f204474 McAlister DF63+ L144- X1363-6919-1415 Scotland
f98697 McAllister DF63+ L144- X1363-6919-1415 Scotland
f112070 McBroom X1363-219-A Scotland
f77891 McFarland X1363-6919-1415 Scotland
f149904 McFarland X1363-6919-1415 Scotland
f246996 McFarland X1363-6919-1415 Scotland
f101775 McFarland X1363-6919-1415 Scotland
f158745 McFarlane X1363-6919-1415 Scotland
f53360 McFarlane X1363-6919-1415 Scotland
f80281 McFarlin L21+ L144- X1363-6919-1415 Scotland
f174395 Thomas DF63+ X1363-1014 Scotland
f190774 zzzUnk(Allen) X1363-219 Scotland
f211601 zzzUnk(McFarlane) X1363-6919-1415 Scotland
f12311 Broom L21+ X1363-219-A UK
f154024 Broom X1363-219-A UK
f175816 Brown DF63+ X1363-21 UK
f23488 McAlister X1363-6919-1415 UK
f61519 McFarlane X1363-6919-1415 UK
f8042 Sims DF63+ L144- X1363-219 UK
f267631 Black X1363-6919-1415 zzzUnkOrigin
fN51736 Black CTS6919+ X1363-6919-1415 zzzUnkOrigin
f206124 Black DF63+ X1363-6919-1415 zzzUnkOrigin
f242907 Black X1363-6919-1415 zzzUnkOrigin
f109264 Black DF63+ X1363-6919-1415 zzzUnkOrigin
f14194 Broom L21+ X1363-219-A zzzUnkOrigin
f47769 Broom X1363-219-A zzzUnkOrigin
f156866 Broom X1363-219-A zzzUnkOrigin
f15246 Broom DF63+ X1363-219-A zzzUnkOrigin
f15537 Broom DF63+ X1363-219-A zzzUnkOrigin
f195501 Broom DF63+ X1363-219-A zzzUnkOrigin
f15494 Broome DF63+ X1363-219-A zzzUnkOrigin
f163192 Broome DF63+ X1363-219-A zzzUnkOrigin
f180338 Chavez DF63+ L144- X1363- uas zzzUnkOrigin
f211188 Franklin DF63+ X1363- uas zzzUnkOrigin
f81528 Franklin L21+ X1363-6919-1011 zzzUnkOrigin
f31309 Franklin DF63+ X1363-6919-1011 zzzUnkOrigin
f2351 Franklin X1363-6919-1011 zzzUnkOrigin
f60254 Franklin X1363-6919-1011 zzzUnkOrigin
f200107 Franklin X1363-6919-1011 zzzUnkOrigin
f77315 Franklin X1363-6919-1011 zzzUnkOrigin
f8496 Franklin X1363-6919-1011 zzzUnkOrigin
f1304 Franklin X1363-6919-1011 zzzUnkOrigin
f43887 Franklin X1363-6919-1011 zzzUnkOrigin
f51260 Franklin(Hall) X1363-6919-1011 zzzUnkOrigin
f200827 Gregory X1363- uas zzzUnkOrigin
f208546 Hendrix X1363-219-A zzzUnkOrigin
f218190 Irvine DF63+ X1363-6919-1415 zzzUnkOrigin
f64434 Irvine X1363-6919-1415 zzzUnkOrigin
f181757 Irvine X1363-6919-1415 zzzUnkOrigin
f97313 Lyons L21+ X1363-219 zzzUnkOrigin
f171640 McBroom X1363-219-A zzzUnkOrigin
f216101 McFarland X1363-6919-1415 zzzUnkOrigin
f61105 McFarland X1363-6919-1415 zzzUnkOrigin
f48766 McFarland X1363-6919-1415 zzzUnkOrigin
f39652 McFarland X1363-6919-1415 zzzUnkOrigin
f216092 McFarlane X1363-6919-1415 zzzUnkOrigin
f137406 McKenzie L21+ X1363-219 zzzUnkOrigin
f74638 Paynter L21+ L144- X1363-219 zzzUnkOrigin
f165512 Senechal L21+ L144- X1363-219 zzzUnkOrigin
f236265 zzzUnk(McFarlane) X1363-6919-1415 zzzUnkOrigin
f201523 zzzUnk(McFarlane) X1363-6919-1415 zzzUnkOrigin
f203471 zzzUnk(McFarlane) DF63+ X1363-6919-1415 zzzUnkOrigin

TigerMW
05-21-2013, 01:15 AM
DF63 is the "other" subclade of L21 as the little brother to DF13. DF63 does have multiple STR signatures and quite a number of people. I had this attached to DF13* discussions but DF63 deserves its own thread.

rms2
05-29-2013, 07:49 AM
There is a new DF13- this morning: Passmore, kit N90495. He has DF63 on order already. Passmore's mdka came from Devon, which, I believe, makes him the most western instance of DF13- we've seen thus far.

He has no matches at 67 or 37 markers.

rms2
06-08-2013, 12:54 PM
There is a new DF13- this morning: Passmore, kit N90495. He has DF63 on order already. Passmore's mdka came from Devon, which, I believe, makes him the most western instance of DF13- we've seen thus far.

He has no matches at 67 or 37 markers.

Passmore got his DF63+ result this morning.

TigerMW
06-09-2013, 10:22 PM
Passmore got his DF63+ result this morning.

I think you asked somewhere why there was some thought he might be DF63+ and not just DF13-. He is in variety X1363-219 which is named for the combination of 413a<=21 511=9. So far, these folks have been coming up DF63+. The large Broom surname group has this.

rms2
06-09-2013, 10:25 PM
I think you asked somewhere why there was some thought he might be DF63+ and not just DF13-. He is in variety X1363-219 which is named for the combination of 413a<=21 511=9. So far, these folks have been coming up DF63+. The large Broom surname group has this.

Thanks. I was wondering if the thinking was that he would be DF63-. Passmore's mdka came from Devon. Am I wrong in thinking that makes him the westernmost DF63+ thus far?

TigerMW
06-09-2013, 10:36 PM
Thanks. I was wondering if the thinking was that he would be DF63-. Passmore's mdka came from Devon. Am I wrong in thinking that makes him the westernmost DF63+ thus far?

Here are the people with Irish MDKAs that either are DF63+ or are good matches, so I guess they are furthest west. Most of the large McFarlane/McFarlin group lists Scotland as the origin, though, and they are all related.

f3268 Douglas - Ulster, Ireland
f172350 McFarlane - Ulster, Ireland
fN76446 McFarlin - Ulster, Ireland
f80281 McFarlin - Ulster, Ireland
f250082 zzzUnk(McFarlane) - Ireland

That's it for Ireland, which is low for an L21+ group.

There are 19 from England, 8 from France and 2 from Germany to go with the winner, Scotland with 33. 18 of the Scots are McFarlane's.

There is no one from Wales.

We have one proven DF63+ from Spain
f232541 Roma

and another good suspect from Spain
f29108 Garcia

rms2
06-09-2013, 10:40 PM
Here are the people with Irish MDKAs that either are DF63+ or are good matches, so I guess they are furthest west. Most of the large McFarlane/McFarlin group lists Scotland as the origin, though, and they are all related.

f3268 Douglas - Ulster, Ireland
f172350 McFarlane - Ulster, Ireland
fN76446 McFarlin - Ulster, Ireland
f80281 McFarlin - Ulster, Ireland
f250082 zzzUnk(McFarlane) - Ireland

That's it for Ireland, which is low for an L21+ group.

There are 19 from England, 8 from France and 2 from Germany to go with the winner, Scotland with 33. The 18 of the Scots are McFarlane's.

Those are all Scots surnames, so probably "Scots-Irish". It seems Ireland is still solidly DF13+.

Without looking, I seem to recall the McFarlanes were from Scotland's east coast. I think Passmore may actually be the westernmost DF63+, at least the westernmost British DF63+.

k.o.gran
08-19-2013, 09:07 PM
I found another couple of surnames that are good suspects. This one might be CTS6919+
Here is one that could be F3901.2+
fN3917 Moore

He has some common off-modals with
f14713 Sutherland R1b-P312>L21>DF63>F3901.2+

I've checked out this kit, and I find it more likely that he is U152 -> Z36. I base that on a GD of [email protected] with kit f128037 and several shared off modals.

We've sent emails to some 5-10 kit owners lately, suggesting DF63 testing, but the response rate has been quite low.

-Kai
R1b-DF63 project admin

TigerMW
08-20-2013, 03:04 AM
I've checked out this kit, and I find it more likely that he is U152 -> Z36. I base that on a GD of [email protected] with kit f128037 and several shared off modals.

We've sent emails to some 5-10 kit owners lately, suggesting DF63 testing, but the response rate has been quite low.

-Kai
R1b-DF63 project admin
I think you are probably right, but I wouldn't totally give up on Moore. He should test for something, Z36 or DF63 or L21 just to be sure. His 459=8,10 match with Sutherland is unusual plus his GD is not bad with him either.

Andrew Lancaster
08-20-2013, 10:43 AM
Is there any confirmed DF63- DF13- ?

k.o.gran
08-20-2013, 12:44 PM
Is there any confirmed DF63- DF13- ?

Hi Andrew,

Please see this thread:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?997-L21*-%28the-real-deal%29-%28L21-DF13-DF63-%29

-Kai

Andrew Lancaster
08-20-2013, 05:59 PM
Hi Andrew,

Please see this thread:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?997-L21*-%28the-real-deal%29-%28L21-DF13-DF63-%29

-Kai

Thanks Kai. Just to make sure I understand: still waiting?
Andrew

k.o.gran
08-20-2013, 06:27 PM
Thanks Kai. Just to make sure I understand: still waiting?
Andrew

No, we know of 9 kits that are L21+, DF13-, DF63-. They are spread over 7 surnames. They are listed in a post by Mike in the thread I linked to.

-Kai

k.o.gran
08-29-2013, 06:51 AM
f31399 - Lambert came back as DF63-. This means he should not be a member of the X1363-6919-1415 variety. In my mind it also means that f68467 - Unknown should be removed from the same group as they are a GD of 4 and have all their off modals in common.

The convergence is strong with this one!

-Kai

Dubhthach
10-02-2013, 09:26 PM
New DF63+ in the Ireland Project: Barnes ( 271961) tested to 67 markers.

rms2
01-25-2014, 02:05 PM
New DF63+ in the Ireland Project: Barnes ( 271961) tested to 67 markers.

That appears to be an English surname. Is there any possibility of a Gaelic original?

I ask because I have yet to see an actual Irish DF13-.

erwangery
03-03-2014, 11:42 PM
Already possible to have an age estimate in terms of years or generations for CTS6919?

Lennox
11-20-2014, 06:23 PM
Hi Guys,

To quickly answer that one for you rms2.. "Descended from the ancient Celtic Earls of Lennox, the MacFarlanes occupied the land forming the "western" shore of Loch Lomond from Tarbet up-wards". So basically that area between and around Loch Long and Loch Lomond on the West Cost which I initially thought Gael.. Dal Riata.. but i guess more result's will tell.. definitely L21+ at least which is good none the less..

MJost
11-20-2014, 07:39 PM
CTS6919-All (Is the Isle migration Founders age)

YrsPerGen* Count IntraClade Coalescence (n-1) Age MeanGenerations StdDevInGen YBP +OR-YBP
30 N=21 Clade A: R1b-L21>DF63>CTS6919-All 45.7 22.0 1,372.0 659.3

YrsPerGen* Count Intraclade Founder's Modal Age ModalGen Age StdDevInGen YBP +OR-YBP
30 N=21 Clade A: R1b-L21>DF63>CTS6919-All 61.3 25.5 1,840.3 763.5


MJost

Jack R. Templeton
01-15-2015, 06:31 PM
The subject sub-clade has been split into two clusters - Cluster one with STR449 = 29 and Cluster two with STR449 =30. Alex Williamson's draft Big Y tree shows (1) a possible parent of these two clusters (SNP DF92) downstream of CTS6919 and (2) a possible parent of Cluster one (18816313A->C). Is it too early for us affected Franklins to commence Sanger Sequencing validation tests of these two "possibles"?
Jack R.

dn4911
06-19-2015, 02:22 PM
Hi all, I am DF63+ and CTS6919+. I am now testing for A92. Only results so far are from YSEQ. I have been waiting for months for my Y-DNA67 test from FTDNA, now delayed until August. Not sure if there is any value in sharing my YSEQ results in any forum until the FTDNA comes back. My surname is Zoll, and I have traced back to Pennsylvania about 1750. Presumed to be from the Palitinate in Germany. They continued to speak German until about 1800's when they moved to Ohio. Genealogy is uncertain before 1800.

erwangery
07-01-2015, 11:49 AM
There, interestingly, already are 2 CTs6919+ whose most distant known ancestors were from Germany: Kits H1922 Hieronymus Joseph Schaefer, 1750-1820 Germany, Linz Am Rhein in Rhineland Palatinate and N110523 Johann Brunhofer. Kit H1922 has tested - for A92.http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=5

Mac von Frankfurt
08-09-2015, 08:46 PM
Is Big Y not identifying many new SNPs under DF63 or is FTDNA just cautious or slow to add them to the tree? I see the FTDNA project has 61 Big-Y tests for 120 members. Seems like that should be enough Big Y testing to create some differentiation.

TigerMW
08-10-2015, 03:43 AM
Is Big Y not identifying many new SNPs under DF63 or is FTDNA just cautious or slow to add them to the tree? I see the FTDNA project has 61 Big-Y tests for 120 members. Seems like that should be enough Big Y testing to create some differentiation.
FTDNA is slow. I don't know if anyone has submitted to FTDNA the SNPs marking the tree branches of DF63. Is there a chart that is current chart on this? I am submitting the top layer of branching but could easily add the DF63 branching. What's the most current tree for DF63?

Mac von Frankfurt
08-10-2015, 05:15 AM
FTDNA is slow. I don't know if anyone has submitted to FTDNA the SNPs marking the tree branches of DF63. Is there a chart that is current chart on this? I am submitting the top layer of branching but could easily add the DF63 branching. What's the most current tree for DF63?

Thanks for the response. I looked at the Big Tree (sorry I should have done this before posting) and Big Y (along with other NGS test results) is definitely providing fine division with 58 men divided into 27 terminal SNPs. About half of those are private, no letter in front of the number (if I understand the numbering system correctly).

I was just researching DF63 as I await L21 Panel results because it looks like one of the groups I might end up in since it includes a few continentals.

gogogenes
11-02-2015, 09:13 PM
My uncle's (137406) closest match just showed up with a DF63 result. I ordered the L21 panel before his results showed up so I will get confirmation of that, as well as finding out his CTS6919 status.

As soon as I saw his result I checked out this thread only to find out that my uncle was already listed under mikewww's confirmed or suspected DF63 list! Could have saved a couple bucks.

zamyatin13
11-02-2015, 10:41 PM
My uncle's (137406) closest match just showed up with a DF63 result. I ordered the L21 panel before his results showed up so I will get confirmation of that, as well as finding out his CTS6919 status.

As soon as I saw his result I checked out this thread only to find out that my uncle was already listed under mikewww's confirmed or suspected DF63 list! Could have saved a couple bucks.

Always interested in other DF63 finds, there are not many of us. Where did your uncle's ancestors hail from roughly?

gogogenes
11-03-2015, 09:11 PM
Short story: my grandfather was adopted from a small town in rural Manitoba.

Long story: My grandfather's adoption certificate stated that his last name was McKenzie, Alias Smith. Since the 1921 Canadian census was released two years ago I discovered, as I had expected, that McKenzie was his mother's name. My family had just assumed that Smith was just a temporary alias for the two years between being given up and being adopted however it turns out that my great grandmother was living with, and had children with, a man named Smith after having left a large family in New Brunswick that she had with her first husband. Two years after my grandfather was born, his mother married yet another man with whom she had another family. My grandfather had two older siblings that continued to live with her and carry the name Smith while my grandfather was given up.

I believe that Mr. Smith was not my great grandfather and, based on DNA and circumstantial evidence, I believe his name was likely Hicks and that they had their ultimate origin in Cornwall, England. My uncle's closest Y match is the one who has tested DF63+. His name is Hicks and his ancestors are from Cornwall. My mother's second largest autosomal match at 23andMe, with 4 matching segments, is also named Hicks and is from Saskatoon, just a little further west than my grandfather's home town in western Manitoba. The largest family in my grandfather's small home town was named Hicks and there were several men within the right age range to be my great grandfather. I have traced this family back through Ontario to New York and thence to Cornwall, England. I also found one line of this family that made their way from Ontario to Saskachewan. Unfortunately my Hicks cousin is twenty years my junior and only lists his grandfather who was very unlikely to have been born before 1921 and not in any census so is hard to trace him to the same Hicks family. He also hasn't returned correspondence. My mother and I also have a couple distant autosomal matches to families ancestral to this Hicks family back in Ontario and New York.

It is very unlikely that I will ever figure out which of the several possible Hicks gentleman was my great grandfather (if this is indeed the case) so I will likely have to settle for stating that my grandfather's paternal ancestry was probably from a Hicks family from Cornwall.

zamyatin13
11-05-2015, 09:30 PM
Wow, that's quite a bit of detective work. DF63 in Cornwall makes sense.

gogogenes
11-06-2015, 12:51 AM
Wow, that's quite a bit of detective work. DF63 in Cornwall makes sense.

And the results are in already! DF63+ and negative for CTS6919.

My uncle's closest matches at 37 and 67 look to be predominantly from the Southwest of England including men by the name of Hicks, Tucker, Pearse (in mikewww's list) and Vincent . He is WAMH so at 25 markers he has a couple thousand matches but selecting for FD63 brings up only 4 known so far including his Hicks match as well as a man with another Cornish name (Trengove).

gogogenes
11-06-2015, 01:04 AM
And now signed up for the DF63 Project!

gogogenes
11-06-2015, 01:44 AM
Had a closer look at my uncle's results and realized that DF63 is quite well covered in the L21 Pack. As it turns out he is now positive for SNP's several levels downstream of DF63.

He is now DF63> BY592> Z16245/Z16246/Z17553> BY3070> FGC36422.

erwangery
11-06-2015, 04:34 AM
there is a new R-df63 in the Portugal DNA project: 302076 Pinto Libanio M. Pinto/Port.1887Maria Raposo/Azores1884.

TigerMW
11-06-2015, 01:41 PM
there is a new R-df63 in the Portugal DNA project: 302076 Pinto Libanio M. Pinto/Port.1887Maria Raposo/Azores1884.
He's one of the R1b-m343 Backbone Pack test takers. I joined from the R1b project to the L21 project so we should see him there too now.

erwangery
12-08-2015, 12:09 PM
I found another couple of surnames that are good suspects. This one might be CTS6919+
f200827 Gregory zzL21suspect

He has some similarities with
fN66966 Gery R1b-P312>L21>DF63>CTS6919+



200827 Gregory has just tested negative for CTS6919

Gruffydd y Dryw
12-12-2015, 06:12 PM
Hello,

I am kit f96772 and in the L21 and DF63 projects. The best information I have indicates my earliest known ancestor, Owen Griffith, was from Llangadog, Carmarthenshire, Wales (according to the Bristol ship registers). I have just ordered the L21 snp pack. I am curious to see if I pool with some of the other DF63's from Scotland or England, or with those from France or Germany. I am not aware of much in the way of Welsh DF63. I am just wondering if my ancestors could have been from a line descended from what the Welsh called the "Men of the North" (Scotland) in the genealogies or perhaps arrived later with successive waves of tribes coming in from the continent. I realize I am speculating, and my ancestors could have arrived much more recently to Wales and just assimilated into the culture. Anyway, now the hard part is to wait for the results to come in :)

ctrengove
12-21-2015, 10:31 PM
Had a closer look at my uncle's results and realized that DF63 is quite well covered in the L21 Pack. As it turns out he is now positive for SNP's several levels downstream of DF63.

He is now DF63> BY592> Z16245/Z16246/Z17553> BY3070> FGC36422.

I am the Trengove (260069) you refer to, and my L21 Pack results have been returned with this same set of results, and a confirmed haplogroup of R-FGC36422.

I am also the admin of the (fairly small) Trengove project at FTDNA, and of the half a dozen or so Trengoves that have been tested (STRs only), we definitely match each other closely. There is a Trengove family history project on Yahoo, where quite a lot of work has been done to research this name. The tentative working hypothesis is that pretty much all known Trengoves seem to descend from a single Trengove, living about 1600, in Perranarworthal in western Cornwall, and so far the DNA evidence provides support for this.

Gruffydd y Dryw
01-05-2016, 02:44 AM
Hello,

I am kit f96772 and in the L21 and DF63 projects. The best information I have indicates my earliest known ancestor, Owen Griffith, was from Llangadog, Carmarthenshire, Wales (according to the Bristol ship registers). I have just ordered the L21 snp pack. I am curious to see if I pool with some of the other DF63's from Scotland or England, or with those from France or Germany. I am not aware of much in the way of Welsh DF63. I am just wondering if my ancestors could have been from a line descended from what the Welsh called the "Men of the North" (Scotland) in the genealogies or perhaps arrived later with successive waves of tribes coming in from the continent. I realize I am speculating, and my ancestors could have arrived much more recently to Wales and just assimilated into the culture. Anyway, now the hard part is to wait for the results to come in :)

Well my results for the R1b-L21 SNP pack came in today, and I was negative for all current SNPs under DF63:

DF63+, P312+, L21+, M222-, M37-, P66-, U106-, U152-, L144-, L159-, L193-, L226-, L96-, P314-, DF13-, CTS6919-, A1078-, A1101-, A1105-, A1120-, A1148-, A1149-, A1308-, A1772-, A2121-, A228-, A237-, A241-, A286-, A5381-, A545-, A551-, A555-, A5843-, A5845-, A5846-, A5917-, A6078-, A6138-, A7254-, A7298-, A7302-, A7806-, A7812-, A897-, A92-, A959-, A967-, A970-, BY118-, BY246-, BY2583-, BY2601-, BY2604-, BY2666-, BY2723-, BY2868-, BY2899-, BY2916-, BY2972-, BY3070-, BY317-, BY3226-, BY3227-, BY3228-, BY3229-, BY3230-, BY561-, BY575-, BY592-, BY595-, BY674-, BY676-, BY701-, BY747-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS1864-, CTS2457-, CTS310-, CTS3386-, CTS4466-, CTS5454-, CTS9686-, DF21-, DF41-, DF49-, F4006-, FGC11134-, FGC11293-, FGC11963-, FGC11986-, FGC13300-, FGC13304-, FGC13758-, FGC13899-, FGC15565-, FGC17164-, FGC18030-, FGC18229-, FGC18230-, FGC19319-, FGC2913-, FGC30632-, FGC32861-, FGC34569-, FGC35995-, FGC36422-, FGC436-, FGC5494-, FGC5511-, FGC5512-, FGC5561-, FGC9655-, L1065-, L1444-, L371-, L513-, L555-, L583-, L679-, MC14-, S1021-, S1026-, S1050-, S1051-, S1088-, S11556-, S12547-, S16264-, S19268-, S19558-, S9294-, S9793-, Y9091-, Y9096-, YFS444735-, Z16246-, Z16250-, Z16500-, Z16502-, Z16506-, Z16886-, Z16891-, Z16910-, Z16943-, Z16944-, Z17553-, Z17653-, Z17662-, Z17901-, Z17967-, Z17971-, Z17992-, Z18092-, Z18108-, Z18600-, Z19670-, Z2185-, Z246-, Z251-, Z253-, Z2542-, Z255-, Z3000-, ZS3152-, ZZ10_1-, ZZ10_2-

So no new SNP designation, I'm still DF63 :)

rms2
01-23-2016, 12:02 AM
We just got a new member of the R L21 and Subclades Project who is Slovenian and R1b-DF63. He has no matches at 111 markers and two 62/67 matches, one with a French surname and the other with a Slavic-looking surname. This new member is not an American but is a Slovenian citizen. The ancestral surname is Kulovec, kit 446962.

No matches at 37 markers.

rms2
01-23-2016, 01:32 AM
We just got a new member of the R L21 and Subclades Project who is Slovenian and R1b-DF63. He has no matches at 111 markers and two 62/67 matches, one with a French surname and the other with a Slavic-looking surname. This new member is not an American but is a Slovenian citizen. The ancestral surname is Kulovec, kit 446962.

No matches at 37 markers.

The match with the Slavic surname has L21 listed as his terminal SNP. Probably has not tested for DF63 yet.

rms2
01-24-2016, 12:23 AM
Our Slovenian DF63 man's 62/67 match with the Slavic surname Pezdirtz has joined the R L21 and Subclades Project. Interestingly, he also traces his ancestry to Slovenia. I recommended he test for DF63 and he says he will.

rms2
01-24-2016, 04:57 PM
When one considers the huge Isles bias in the FTDNA database, two DF63s from Slovenia sounds like an actual trend. Maybe that is going too far, but it is interesting.

I could not find any FTDNA testing stats for Slovenia, but neighboring Serbia only has 205 total y-dna tests of 12 markers or more in FTDNA's database. That's pretty anemic when compared to the tens of thousands of Isles test results there.

erwangery
02-06-2016, 11:45 PM
It seems to me that, in view of the distribution of its Subclades, Df63 originated in Continental Europe (where?) and CTs6919 in Germany.

Subclades of Df63
F3901.2 Sutherland (Scotland)
BY701 Bertrand (France)
Cts6919 Brunhofer, Zoll,Schaefer (Germany), Mullen (uk),
A92 Gery (France)
BY561 Franklin (England)
F489 Lennox/Mc farlane (Scotland, Ireland)
BY592 Darke, LeBlanc (France)
Cts5454
A7810 Cisneros (Cuba), Willems (Netherlands)
Z16245 Pinto (Portugal), Phillips
Z16246 Brooks
BY2583 Allan (Scotland), Sims (UK)
BY3070 Roma (Spain)
FGC36422 Griffin, Fuller, Bryson, Trengove, Hex (England), Mc Kenzie, Bush
BY676 Broome (England, scotland), Brown

rms2
02-06-2016, 11:50 PM
It would be interesting to see to what subclade our two new Slovenian DF63 guys, Kulovec and Pezdirtz, belong.

BTW, Pezdirtz is trying to order DF63 from FTDNA, but he has been having trouble with FTDNA's not-so-user-friendly system.

rms2
02-07-2016, 12:42 AM
It would be interesting to see to what subclade our two new Slovenian DF63 guys, Kulovec and Pezdirtz, belong.

BTW, Pezdirtz is trying to order DF63 from FTDNA, but he has been having trouble with FTDNA's not-so-user-friendly system.

The DF63 ordering problem has been resolved. Pezdirtz now has DF63 on order. I feel pretty confident he will get a positive result. Time will tell.

Huntergatherer1066
03-05-2016, 05:55 PM
In one of the group projects I administer there is a man without any SNP testing who is 61/67 match with a DF63+ man, I often wonder if he is also DF63 but with that GD I'm not entirely comfortable suggesting he test for it. At the 37 marker level he matches an additional person who is DF63 and also BY592, but he also matches at about the same GD someone who is BY3441 which is downstream of DF49 which increases my uncertainty. The L21 panel would likely suit him, although since he isn't confirmed for any L21 SNPs so there is a small chance he might even be L21 negative. Are there any Y-DNA67 STR values currently thought to suggest DF63+ status? He is already in the L21 project, in the needs to test for L21 subgroup.

rms2
03-10-2016, 12:20 AM
In one of the group projects I administer there is a man without any SNP testing who is 61/67 match with a DF63+ man, I often wonder if he is also DF63 but with that GD I'm not entirely comfortable suggesting he test for it. At the 37 marker level he matches an additional person who is DF63 and also BY592, but he also matches at about the same GD someone who is BY3441 which is downstream of DF49 which increases my uncertainty. The L21 panel would likely suit him, although since he isn't confirmed for any L21 SNPs so there is a small chance he might even be L21 negative. Are there any Y-DNA67 STR values currently thought to suggest DF63+ status? He is already in the L21 project, in the needs to test for L21 subgroup.

Honestly, I don't know of any STRs that suggest DF63+ status, but there might be some.

rms2
03-10-2016, 12:22 AM
Pezdirtz, kit 288521, got his DF63+ result today.

That makes two Slovenian DF63+ results: Pezdirtz and Kulovec.

TigerMW
03-10-2016, 01:25 AM
Honestly, I don't know of any STRs that suggest DF63+ status, but there might be some.
There are several STR signatures that correlate with different subgroups of DF63. They are in the R1b-L21_Haplotypes spreadsheet.

erwangery
03-18-2016, 08:38 AM
Two new results in the DF63>BY592>Z16245>Z16246 subbranch:

275541 Jacks Nicholas Jacks, b. 1786 and d. 1854 Unknown Origin R-Z16246
160207 Martin Baudon, ca 1590-1648 R-Z16246

Dr. O
06-28-2016, 07:09 PM
Just checking in: received my L21 downstream SNP's and am DF63. I am from New Mexico USA, my ancestor was Cayetano de Otero b. 1701 in Galicia Spain, came to New Spain in 1724 and the Kingdom of New Mexico by c. 1730. Died c. 1768 probably in NM. I share same results with other New Mexico Otero's; most other matches are Ireland/Scotland and one in Spain. Any other Spanish/Sephardic DF63 out there?

EzraJacob
06-29-2016, 02:57 AM
Just checking in: received my L21 downstream SNP's and am DF63. I am from New Mexico USA, my ancestor was Cayetano de Otero b. 1701 in Galicia Spain, came to New Spain in 1724 and the Kingdom of New Mexico by c. 1730. Died c. 1768 probably in NM. I share same results with other New Mexico Otero's; most other matches are Ireland/Scotland and one in Spain. Any other Spanish/Sephardic DF63 out there?



Hello,

My grandmother's father's Alkema line from Friesland, Netherlands has shown to have Sephardic roots during the 15th-16th centuries. We found Jewish records for our Broersma line that married into the Alkema's back in the 17th century. The Alkema name was once spelled as Alcama, and we believe they came from the Sephardic community in Alcamo, Sicily, and left the island when they were forced to in 1493 by the Spanish authorities. My Alkema cousin, who took the Y-DNA test, came out showing to be DF63, and testing is underway to see if that line is CTS6919. Those people that tested positive for CTS6919 have very Ashkenazic surnames from Germany (many Sephardim went to Germany as well). I would be interested to see if you turned out with the same SNP. I can keep you posted as to my results. I wonder if there are many Sephardic branches of DF63.

~Ezra Jacob

Dr. O
06-29-2016, 02:09 PM
Thanks for the info, will be looking forward for your results and research. Was that Douwe Hendriks Alkema d.1847; circa 1800’s was married to a Aukjen Piers Broersma from Wonseradeel, Friesland, Netherlandsthat?
Dr. O.

Dr. O
07-01-2016, 06:57 AM
To EzraJacob: Is Ignazio Alcamo, (b. ABT 1590) related to you? I think you and I are in the same DF63 sub-subclade...

Dr. O
07-05-2016, 05:18 PM
Anybody there???

Dr. O
07-11-2016, 02:40 PM
Hello... anybody have new info on DF63???
As a Sephardic Jew (Galicia Spain); why, where, how DF63???

RandyHighsmith
12-16-2016, 06:25 PM
Hello,

I am new to this forum. I am a L21+ > DF63+ > CTS6919. I plan to do the DF63 Pac soon. I have always been curious if the HIGHSMITH line came to America under a different surname and changed it once they arrived here. Many think the meaning of HIGHSMITH is the Smith from the High Lands. I know there is a Smith clan but also each clan had Smiths so there may be a connection through a number of different clans.

The Highsmith name first shows up in the 1690s in Norfolk VA, USA. It seems to be a uniquely American name as I see very few instances of it elsewhere and in most of those cases, they came from America...

FTDNA suggest I take R1b - DF63 SNP Pack so I will likely do that soon.

My kit # at FTDNA is B33208

Dr. O
12-19-2016, 04:11 AM
I AM HISPANIC/JEWISH BUT FROM GENI.COM I FOUND:
Daniel Highsmith, Jr. (his wife is my 16th cousin)
Gender: Male
Birth: circa 1737
Norfolk, Virginia, United States
Death: circa 1807 (62-78)
New Hanover, North Carolina, United States
Immediate Family:
Son of Daniel Highsmith, Sr. and Ann Highsmith
Husband of Lucretia Parker Highsmith
Father of Thomas Highsmith; James Highsmith; Dorcas Highsmith; Daniel Highsmith; Issac Highsmith; and Rachel Bowen « less
Brother of John Highsmith, Sr.; Elizabeth Shepperd; Mary Irwin; Sarah Rogers; Dorcas Highsmith; Juda Highsmith; Lydia Highsmith; James Highsmith; Anna Highsmith; Martha Highsmith; Ann Highsmith and Anice Highsmith « less

erwangery
12-21-2016, 12:27 AM
You are a 107/111 match to kit 344429 Lewis who is Df63+/cts6919? as well and a 103/111 match to Mullen who is Df63/cts6919/a92-. According to ftdna learning center, a 107/111 match indicates a genealogical relationship. Most matches at this level are related as 10th or more recent cousins, and over half will be 6th or more recent cousins. This is well within the range of traditional genealogy.

msmarjoribanks
10-01-2017, 08:35 PM
My father is DF63, and I'm interested in comparing notes or finding out what is known about this subclade so far (or ideas about how to learn more information). He is a member of the DF63 project.

Unsurprisingly, he has a totally unhelpful 7344 (now, more daily) 12 marker matches, but only 3 matches at 37 markers (one with GD 0, and the others with 2 and 3, their haplogroups only known to R-M269). For 67 markers, there's one match (different guy, also R-M269, I assume the other 3 may not have had higher levels tested), and that match has a GD of 7. No matches for 111 yet.

The Big Y showed DF63, as I said, and from YTree what I'm seeing is:

DF63 seems to be split into CTS6919, BY711, and BY592.

CTS6919 is largely Scottish, has the MacFarlanes, but also a Germany and France.

BY711 has the French Bertrands, as well as some others from Scotland.

BY592 is maybe the most diverse, has lots of people who don't know (well, none of these seem to have that many people), plus Netherlands, Spain (and Cuba), Portugal, and Scotland and England.

My dad is one of these BY592 (and the family is in Shropshire near the current Welsh border when I lose them).

TigerMW
10-01-2017, 09:20 PM
If you haven’t please join the R-L21 project. What is your kit number? I will do a quick analysis.

msmarjoribanks
10-01-2017, 11:43 PM
Just checked, and I am a member (well, my dad is, I administer his kit). It's 563446. Thanks!

goradd
10-08-2017, 03:12 AM
I got my Yseq results and I am A7811. Anyone know anything about this Subclade?

Thanks

msmarjoribanks
10-12-2017, 04:04 AM
Someone else will know a lot more, but have you checked out the Big Tree (ytree.net)? I found it helpful.

Within DF63, there seem to be some more significant sub-groupings. I summarized above, but what I see are:

Major subgroupings CTS6919, BY711, and BY592.

BY592 (which seems reasonably diverse) is mostly but not entirely also positive for CTS5454.

BY592/CTS5454 includes at least two subgroups (which both can be broken down still further): A7810/A7811 is one, and Z16245/BY7798 is the other. How long ago all these various ones broke off, I dunno. The McDonald estimate, if I am understanding it correctly (if not I hope someone else jumps in), is around 2400 BCE for the CTS-5454 mutation (although of course there would be a large possible range), and then around 2000 BCE for A-7810 and 2100 BCE for Z-16245.

Z-16245 has a variety of English/Scottish results, but also Portugal and Spain. A-7810/A-7811 seem to be smaller (or just have fewer people testing as a group), and I only see Cuba, England, and the Netherlands currently (talking about most distant paternal ancestor).

My father's Y is part of this A-7810/A-7811 group, although it is not his terminal.

Hope this all makes sense, I'm still a newbie to this.

RonaldG123
04-24-2018, 07:21 PM
What is the extent of BY3070 in DF21 men? What grouping within DF21 are getting this mutation from DF63?

msmarjoribanks
04-25-2018, 09:08 PM
What is the extent of BY3070 in DF21 men? What grouping within DF21 are getting this mutation from DF63?

You mean DF63 or DF21?

In DF63 it is downstream of these: R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF63/S522 > BY592 > CTS5454.

I don't see a particular pattern, but there aren't enough to do so, I'd imagine. In the BigTree, BY592 seems to be one major mutation (upstream of that one) that separates various misc DF63 groups from the bigger ones (who don't have BY592). The bigger ones would be the McFarlanes, McAllisters, Blacks and Lennoxes, and Franklins. But I don't know that those groups are larger vs. they just tested more.

RonaldG123
04-26-2018, 08:42 PM
BY3070 under Z16246 in DF63 Big tree is a mutation that many in the DF21 project at FTDNA have. I know what it is, I was wondering what anyone would say. Having Z260 is probably the connection.

msmarjoribanks
04-27-2018, 02:46 PM
I am perhaps being slow, but what would a mutuation within the DF21 project have to do with DF63? (The same mutation exists in some DF63 men, but it would be from a separate event.)

I have a feeling I'm missing something, but from the BigTree L21's children include DF13 and DF63. DF21 is a child of DF13, isn't it?

RonaldG123
04-27-2018, 09:53 PM
There was mixing of certain haplogroups in europe, intermingling when they crossed over from France. It is not odd to share mutation from other groups. McDonald's project includes U106 mutations within these groups.

RonaldG123
04-27-2018, 09:56 PM
When I get on here it just does not go anywhere. If I may ask what tests have you taken?

RonaldG123
04-27-2018, 10:13 PM
I guess I see what your saying they were all connected by DF13, I just looked at them as separate. Like DF21 being only DF21 as itself. So I am seeing for the first time differently, that is what this tree is showing us.

msmarjoribanks
04-29-2018, 11:55 AM
I just hadn't heard the concept of sharing mutations like that before.

In DF63, that mutation seems to have occurred only after DF63 and then BY592 (which is a major mutation that seems to split DF63). Some of the main patterns found among DF63 are for family groups (Franklin, McFarland, to
a lesser degree Black and Lennox), and all these bigger groups are NOT BY592, but have a different set of mutations that BY592 men seem not to have.

BY592 men are then divided into those who have CTS5454 and those who do not, with the former group being larger. There are only 28 DF63 men who are also in the CTS5454 category at the BigTree, however, since DF63 is quite a bit smaller than some other branches of L21. It looks like BY3070 is a mutation that some in DF63/CTS5454 have (currently 11 on the BigTree), but not others, so my belief is that within DF63 it would have happened after the CTS5454 mutation and thus also after BY592 and DF63 itself, but whether there's also a significant subset of DF63 men who have it without having BY592, I don't know.

My dad is DF63/BY592/CTS5454, but does not have BY3070.

Re tests taken, it's my dad who is DF63, but I administer his account, since I'm significantly more interested in it than him (he's mostly interested in matches and more recent genealogy and wants me to fill him in on that stuff). He's taken Big Y and Y-111.

RonaldG123
04-29-2018, 10:54 PM
In the haplogroup tree at FTDNA there is BY592,Z16245,Z16246, I am negative for then BY3070 in green I am positive for. Everything else I have is in L21 through DF21, I am A5409 under DF5,DF25,L1403. This is listed at Yfull A5409,BY23740,A5410, BY23740 descending from U106 I believe. I think it all connects somehow.

RonaldG123
04-29-2018, 10:58 PM
Also I may mention there is not a CTS5454 listed at FTDNA in my snp tree. I dont have it in my YFull report but it is listed in known snps with M6955 with DF13.

msmarjoribanks
04-30-2018, 01:29 PM
There could be multiple paths that have some of the same later mutations, however.

msmarjoribanks
08-13-2018, 10:58 PM
Not much here lately. I happened upon this article: https://www.academia.edu/24686284/The_phylogenealogy_of_R-L21_four_and_a_half_millennia_of_expansion_and_red istribution

Some DF63 information:

"DF63 is regarded as the ‘earliest subclade’, because it branched six ways directly from L21 without the intervening DF13 mutation that is upstream of most other subclades. It has a fairly large early continental component making it truly Atlantic – Spain, Portugal, France, Netherlands and Germany, and is found in Cornwall, though not in particularly early branches (Hicks and Trengove). The ‘Lennox Cluster’ Z16506 participated in the post-Roman expansion in Scotland, probably as indigenous p-Celtic." (p. 12)

Estimated percentage of L21 that is DF63 in 50 AD and now, using estimate based on SNP and STR (explained in the article, p. 27-28):

SNP=now 2.9%, 50 AD 3.5%
STR=now 1.7%, 50 AD 5.2%

Pie charts on p. 7 that are too hard to read give the relative percentage on the Continent and in England, Ireland, and Scotland. DF63 seems almost non-existent in Ireland (which has less diversity of L21 clades overall), is not too much more significant in Scotland (and perhaps larger mostly due to the so called Lennox Cluster), is still small but bigger in England, and a little bigger still (although still quite small) on the Continent.

rms2
08-14-2018, 02:05 PM
Oh, no, not Joe Flood.

His c.v. sounds impressive, but when it comes to y-dna he is given to wild flights of fancy. He thinks L21 originated in SW Britain, which is where he thinks U106 originated, as well.

Up until quite recently, he thought R1b-M269 arrived in the Isles soon after the LGM.

I wouldn't bother with anything Mr. Flood has to say.

msmarjoribanks
08-14-2018, 02:16 PM
Ah, that's a shame, as it was so exciting to find someone talking about DF63, even if only a little. I should have vetted him more.

rms2
08-14-2018, 02:28 PM
Flood's paper makes a nod towards ancient dna but then launches into the typical circa 2006 sort of tome based entirely on modern distribution.

Based on that, he claims L21 originated in SW Britain around 2500 BC and spread from there. Groan.

But Flood misses the fact that most of the British Kurgan Bell Beaker remains from Olalde et al were already DF13+ at least.

Most glaringly, Flood ignores the fact that the isotopic evidence shows that the Amesbury Archer was born and raised on the Continent, probably in the Alpine region of southern Germany or Switzerland. Even though we don't have the Archer's genome, we do have the genome of "The Companion", buried just 3 meters from the Archer and, based on osteological evidence, thought to be his son or at least a very close relative. The Companion was L21+.

If the Archer was L21+, and that seems almost certain, then L21 did not originate in SW Britain.

Note that Joe Flood used to run the Cornwall Project. As we all know, Cornwall, in SW Britain (of all places!), was the home of Adam and Eve, and the little-known matrix of all life on earth.

They do make good beer in Cornwall, at least. I can testify to that.

25276

rms2
08-14-2018, 02:29 PM
Ah, that's a shame, as it was so exciting to find someone talking about DF63, even if only a little. I should have vetted him more.

Mike Walsh is a much better source. He runs the R1b-L21 Project.

msmarjoribanks
08-14-2018, 05:51 PM
L21 project has so few DF63s that it never gets discussed, or so is my impression.

TigerMW
08-14-2018, 07:11 PM
L21 project has so few DF63s that it never gets discussed, or so is my impression.
The L21 project yahoo group is pretty big so I'm sure we can find people there interested in discussing it.
I wouldn't say DF63 is too small. I see the DF63 project has over 200 people.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-df63/dna-results

Terrance, the admin, most frequently is seen on FB. I've seen him at the general L21 FB: https://www.facebook.com/groups/159639954103947/

DF63 seems to have its own nature. It is not too much a of SW and S Ireland subclade compared to the rest of L21, but more Scots and N Irish. There is a higher proportion of English than the rest of L21 it looks, its good sized French/Bertrand subclade and some early branching folks from Spain, Portual, Germany.
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=5

msmarjoribanks
08-14-2018, 08:05 PM
Argh, I just typed a long detailed post about DF63 summarizing what I see in BigTree and managed to lose it.

One problem with DF63 is that it's hard to characterize since it's really old (I think it's dated about the same as L21) and really diverse, and so the defined subclades, even quite far down, can be very far apart.

The biggest main subclade is CTS6919 (which I just realized includes 6DRIF-21, so that's cool). That one has a big English Franklin group and the big Lennox group that is the strong Scots/Ulster presence (McFarlanes and Lennox and McAlister and Black, among others).

Second biggest is my dad's, BY592, but it's really diverse -- lots of English, but also one from Germany, one from the Netherlands, and three from Iberia. BY592 breaks into several other groupings but I don't think any of these are necessarily very close. My dad's is CTS5454 (which most BY592 are, not all), and then A7810 (a small subset of three), and then BY20328 (subset of two, but predicted common ancestor around 3500 years ago).

Smaller subsets of DF63 are BY711, which seems to be mainly the French Bertrands, but I wonder if they tested as a group, and then another small one that has no particular rhyme or reason (some Scots, some English), and likely are people quite far apart still under that umbrella.

The striking thing is that there seems to be no Irish presence with the exception of what is likely Scottish settlement in Ulster.

msmarjoribanks
08-14-2018, 09:13 PM
Flood's paper makes a nod towards ancient dna but then launches into the typical circa 2006 sort of tome based entirely on modern distribution.

Based on that, he claims L21 originated in SW Britain around 2500 BC and spread from there. Groan.

I agree that L21 did not originate in Britain (DF63 is likely evidence of that, although the evidence seems overwhelming anyway). I do actually want more information about modern distribution that's more detailed, which is what I liked about the Flood, although it wasn't sufficient. I am curious where DF63 actually is, since the distribution is different than L21 in general, and yet that's what is often given. I'm especially curious how common it is in different countries outside the British Isles (like France, which I assume is under-sampled), I'm curious about the Iberian presence since my dad's closest match is Cuban (although given the distance I think they are both likely to descend from the non-Iberian BBs and not necessarily be any closer than that), and I'm curious about Wales, which seems to be inadequately sampled. Right now there's not really any presence in Wales, but unlike Ireland I don't think we know from that that it's not there, given the size of Wales and that it has fewer samples (and lots of Americans might not know that's where their DNA comes from) and the tiny size of DF63, who knows.

I'm mostly interested in where it shows up in ancient samples, however. Had missed it was in that one Gladiator sample before. I haven't noticed it in lots of ancient samples (I went through the Ancestral Journeys site looking for it at one point), but the more specific subclades don't always seem to be published.

rms2
08-14-2018, 09:18 PM
When a guy demonstrates a tendency to be way out in left field, I don't trust him with anything, not even modern distribution stats.

I can't force myself to read through a lengthy tome by Joe Flood.

msmarjoribanks
11-25-2018, 09:28 PM
Inspired by Mitchell1983's post elsewhere, I did a count of DF63 project members and ancestor's place of origin.

Excluding the approximately 73 unknowns/US results (I should have counted again to be certain about the number), the ancestor's place of origin are:

Ireland=25 (12 of those specifying Northern Ireland)
Scotland=44
England=37 (my ancestor is one of these, but it's close to the Welsh border, likely Welsh name)
Wales=3
UK=10

France=13 (but most trace to the same ancestor)

Spain and diaspora=7 (1 of these was Cuba)
Portugal=1

Netherlands=2
Sweden=1
Germany=3

Slovenia=2
Macedonia=1

msmarjoribanks
11-26-2018, 05:42 PM
Updating based on total FTDNA numbers:

322 total:

British Isles
Scotland=56
England=44
Ireland+Northern Ireland=34 (19 Ireland, 15 NI)
Wales=3
United Kingdom=12

Other Europe
France=17
Germany=4
Spain=3
Slovenia=2
Austria=2
Switzerland=2
Portugal=1
Sweden=1

Americas or other colonial
US=14
St Vincent and the Grenadines=1
Cuba=1
Unknown (probably fits here)=141

I was going to convert this into percentage per country, but it's so tiny for all of them that it didn't make sense.

lijaci
01-24-2019, 05:07 PM
I'm your Cuban ancient cousin. ;)

msmarjoribanks
03-26-2019, 09:41 PM
I'm your Cuban ancient cousin. ;)

Hi! Are you the one on YFull too?

erwangery
05-13-2019, 11:25 AM
In "A Transient Pulse of Genetic Admixture from the Crusaders in the Near East Identified from Ancient Genome Sequences", SI-53 (RS3189343 SI-53 Sidon medieval 1025–1154 male R-CTS300) was identified as positive for DF-63 but, no mention of any sub-branch.

EzraJacob
06-19-2019, 03:41 AM
To EzraJacob: Is Ignazio Alcamo, (b. ABT 1590) related to you? I think you and I are in the same DF63 sub-subclade... Yes, I think so too. You are probably in the CTS6919 subclade, the next snp down the stream, my great grandfather's Alkema line was confirmed to be CTS6919, have you done further testing?

msmarjoribanks
07-22-2019, 09:41 PM
Apparently one of the samples in the recent Viking paper is DF63 (VK345, dated to 9th to 11th centuries CE, Oland, Sweden, but identified as non-local). Specifically, he is DF63>Y10997>Z16245>F10381>Y21520>FGC36423.

Looking at the BigTree, Y10997 seems to go along with BY592, estimated age about 2600 YBP. (By contrast, the Driffield Terrace gladiator sample seems to be DF63>CTS6919 (with final not determined). BY592/Y10997 and CTS6919 are the two largest children of DF63.

One child of BY592/Y10997 is CTS5454, and CTS5454 is a parent of Z16245 (my personal note, this is where it diverges from my dad's YDNA path, as A7810 is a separate child of CTS5454). Z16245 has an estimated date of about 2500 YBP. The F10381 block isn't much younger, and neither is FGC36423.

(As an aside, at the BigTree, A7810 is given a date of 1400 YBP, but YFull has it at 3000 YBP -- not sure why such a huge difference.

msmarjoribanks
07-30-2019, 05:45 PM
Adding to the above the ancestry information for VK345:

British-like=0.264
Danish-like=0.054
Swedish-like=0
Norwegian-like=0.102
Polish-like=0.025
Southern European-like=0.553
Finnish-like=0.002

lijaci
09-27-2019, 02:26 PM
Yes, That is me as well. :)

SWISSCELT
11-26-2019, 02:51 AM
Hey DF63 Family!!!! Just wanted to let you know that we will be building a new branch on the tree south of FGC36423/BY3004 right under Fuller and Phillips on the Big Tree. Many of us pulled the trigger on the latest Big700 sale and will be fleshing out a group of Swiss Martins in mid February. Still trying to wrap my head around how we all ended up in a group of mostly Brits. Perhaps this test will kill all of my family history/evidence of coming from Basel in the 1700's. Hope to see where this goes.

alejandromb92
01-05-2021, 04:50 PM
DF63+ here.

alejandromb92
01-22-2021, 04:46 PM
Quick results summary:
R1b-L21 Superclade Orientation Panel
DF13 A-
L21 G+
Z39589 ins-
DF63 C+
R1b-DF63 Panel
A91 G-
BY592 C-
BY28644 G-
BY711 T+
FT42201 A-
BY709 G-

Most specific position on the YFull YTree is R-DF63

You are negative for all known downstream SNPs

YSEQ doesn't test for CTS4665, so i will have to wait for a while.

Denis Otero
06-01-2021, 04:56 PM
I am R-L21-DF63 at FTDNA. My MDA was Cayetano de Otero b. 1701 in Galicia Spain, d. aft. 1768 in La Villa de Albuquerque, Kingdom of New Mexico now the State of New Mexico USA.

msmarjoribanks
06-01-2021, 05:56 PM
Quick results summary:
R1b-L21 Superclade Orientation Panel
DF13 A-
L21 G+
Z39589 ins-
DF63 C+
R1b-DF63 Panel
A91 G-
BY592 C-
BY28644 G-
BY711 T+
FT42201 A-
BY709 G-

Most specific position on the YFull YTree is R-DF63

You are negative for all known downstream SNPs

YSEQ doesn't test for CTS4665, so i will have to wait for a while.

Is your Y line Spanish? Any matches on YFull?

alejandromb92
06-01-2021, 06:19 PM
Is your Y line Spanish? Any matches on YFull?

Indeed, from northeast Galicia, which makes a bit of sense. I have no matches in Yfull, there are only 3 persons with BY711, and that's counting myself. They aren't in Yfull.

maeloc
06-01-2021, 06:53 PM
Indeed, from northeast Galicia, which makes a bit of sense. I have no matches in Yfull, there are only 3 persons with BY711, and that's counting myself. They aren't in Yfull.


From where? I am also paternally north-east Galician and I am R1b-L21.

alejandromb92
06-01-2021, 07:13 PM
From where? I am also paternally north-east Galician and I am R1b-L21.

North of Lugo, and you? Wow that's insane to know brother.

maeloc
06-01-2021, 07:35 PM
North of Lugo, and you? Wow that's insane to know brother.

From Eume. We most likely have the same L21 clade.

alejandromb92
06-01-2021, 07:40 PM
From Eume. We most likely have the same L21 clade.

Eume is very near of what was Britonia, Gallaecia, so it makes a lot of sense. I am L21>DF63>BY711*, hope you get something similar!

msmarjoribanks
06-02-2021, 11:26 PM
Given the current conversation, Galicia is very interesting -- do you have any Y matches (on FTDNA or YFull, and if you haven't uploaded to YFull, I recommend).

msmarjoribanks
06-02-2021, 11:30 PM
Indeed, from northeast Galicia, which makes a bit of sense. I have no matches in Yfull, there are only 3 persons with BY711, and that's counting myself. They aren't in Yfull.

Interesting. My dad is DF63, and his closest YFull match (who has posted here) is a man from Cuba, although they are still quite distant -- if he is still around, I wonder if he knows his more specific patrilineal ancestry.

My dad's most distant known patrilineal ancestor (early 1700s) is English, but on the Welsh border, although they could have been pushed west in Saxon times or some such. The closest Y/Big Y match on Ancestry (likely in genealogical times, but could be quite far back) is a man who is stuck in Essex around 1800. I find the Spanish connection intriguing just in terms of possible British Isles settlement patterns/where my family came from before, although given how undeveloped the DF63 research is, it could all be too distant to be significant.

alejandromb92
06-03-2021, 08:58 AM
Interesting. My dad is DF63, and his closest YFull match (who has posted here) is a man from Cuba, although they are still quite distant -- if he is still around, I wonder if he knows his more specific patrilineal ancestry.

My dad's most distant known patrilineal ancestor (early 1700s) is English, but on the Welsh border, although they could have been pushed west in Saxon times or some such. The closest Y/Big Y match on Ancestry (likely in genealogical times, but could be quite far back) is a man who is stuck in Essex around 1800. I find the Spanish connection intriguing just in terms of possible British Isles settlement patterns/where my family came from before, although given how undeveloped the DF63 research is, it could all be too distant to be significant.

DF63 seems to be common in all Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but in the actual Rep. of Ireland is very rare, and is impressive taking in account that there more than the 90% of the people is L21.

In the case of galicians and spaniards being DF63, i think it is due some migrations during the Roman Period and mainly during the Saxon Period in Great Britain. They were overwhemly DF13, with the typical irish-like clades, that's why is so cool to me when i find someone here with DF63.

My clade BY711 is very rare, like i said before, i only have 2 matches, one french with normand surname and a scot with a norse surname (which seems curious to me), but both have downstream clades that are negative SNPs to me, so i am somehow stuck.

I tested with YSEQ, i might be planning to do the complete test of FTDNA in a near future.

msmarjoribanks
06-04-2021, 02:54 AM
DF63 seems to be common in all Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but in the actual Rep. of Ireland is very rare, and is impressive taking in account that there more than the 90% of the people is L21.

In the case of galicians and spaniards being DF63, i think it is due some migrations during the Roman Period and mainly during the Saxon Period in Great Britain. They were overwhemly DF13, with the typical irish-like clades, that's why is so cool to me when i find someone here with DF63.

My clade BY711 is very rare, like i said before, i only have 2 matches, one french with normand surname and a scot with a norse surname (which seems curious to me), but both have downstream clades that are negative SNPs to me, so i am somehow stuck.

I tested with YSEQ, i might be planning to do the complete test of FTDNA in a near future.

Given how close my dad's family is to Wales and that he has a surname that is more Welsh than English (although consistent with both), I wish they had better sampling in Wales -- so far sampling seems not to have pegged the different DF63 groups so well as DF13. There are major Scottish and (I think) French groups, but it's rare enough that most people who test DF63 don't have many close matches.

alejandromb92
06-04-2021, 06:45 AM
Given how close my dad's family is to Wales and that he has a surname that is more Welsh than English (although consistent with both), I wish they had better sampling in Wales -- so far sampling seems not to have pegged the different DF63 groups so well as DF13. There are major Scottish and (I think) French groups, but it's rare enough that most people who test DF63 don't have many close matches.

We are way less than the 10% of the L21, it's quite painfully to find matches but knowing we are kind of unique, makes it much fun and interesting.

msmarjoribanks
06-06-2021, 04:10 AM
I am R-L21-DF63 at FTDNA. My MDA was Cayetano de Otero b. 1701 in Galicia Spain, d. aft. 1768 in La Villa de Albuquerque, Kingdom of New Mexico now the State of New Mexico USA.

Just noticed you are Galicia too. Makes me wonder if there has been any Y survey in Spain detailed enough to identify DF63 vs other R1b subclades?

Denis Otero
06-20-2021, 03:38 PM
Received Big Y-700 results for New Mexico Otero's surname: DF63>FT40326>FT39107>FT42464

Denis Otero
06-20-2021, 03:52 PM
Big Y 700 results: FT40326>FT39107>FT42464